Woman's Hour - Sarah Everard; Zoë Billingham, Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary; Pepsi & Shirlie; The ethics and laws around surrogacy

Episode Date: September 30, 2021

Sarah Everard's killer Wayne Couzens was sentenced today. The court heard that Sarah Everard was handcuffed by her murderer - a Metropolitan Police officer - as he pretended to arrest her for breaching Covid guidelines, as she walked home from a friend's house in Clapham on 3 March. Couzens showed his warrant card before restraining her and putting her in his hire car and driving away. Emma gets reaction from listener and journalist Kat Brown, and reads from Sarah's mother Susan Everard's victim impact statement. She also speaks to Zoë Billingham, who is standing down today after 12 years in her role at Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary. Zoë has taken a lead on domestic abuse inspections, and this month published a damning report into the way an ‘epidemic’ of violence against women and girls is being handled – and calling for the prevention of these crimes to be taken as seriously by police and Government as counterterrorism. The report was commissioned by the Home Secretary Priti Patel in the wake of Sarah Everard’s murder in March. After many years as members of Wham!, Pepsi & Shirlie broke out to conquer the charts as a pop duo. They discuss the challenges of making it in the male-dominated 1980s music industry, juggling pop careers with motherhood and reinventing themselves.Surrogacy in England and Wales has quadrupled over the past decade and enjoys a much higher profile thanks to celebrity parents such as Elton John, Kim Kardashian and Tom Daley. But despite it becoming an increasingly accepted option for those wishing to have a family, the laws regulating surrogacy and the rights of those involved haven't changed in the UK since the mid-1980s. The Law Commission is now in the process of reviewing those laws for the modern day. Bioethicist Dr Herjeet Marway from the University of Birmingham and lawyer Dr Claire Fenton-Glynn from the University of Cambridge discuss the many sticking points in surrogacy's evolving legal and ethical picture. Image credit: Family Handout/CPS/PA Wire.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to today's programme. Rage, disbelief, unimaginable sorrow and more rage. Some of the emotions pouring out of women all over the country as we learn some of the horrific details of Sarah Everard's last hours at the hands of policeman Wayne Cousins, who will today be sentenced at the Old Bailey.

We learned he kidnapped Sarah under the guise of a false arrest before raping and killing her. You've already been in touch this morning. Ayesha emailed in to say, I'm utterly appalled and horrified to hear the details of Sarah Everard's final hours. It is horrible to hear of anything like this, but what makes it feel worse is how much I recognise

that it could be any one of us. Sarah was just walking home. Every time I think about going somewhere, I'm constantly planning in my mind and aim to avoid walking alone as much as possible. I feel like it's programmed into us as women from a young age, and I'm particularly heartbroken for Sarah's family and have remembered them in my prayers. My deepest condolences to them. May Sarah rest in peace.

Listener and freelance journalist Kat Brown has had this to say. It would be so nice to get through a week, a month, a year without descending into a feeling of helpless, cold, hard rage. And yesterday was just not that day. And today probably is going to be much the same. The journalist Agnes Frimston said something amazing on Twitter yesterday, which was after a police officer had been interviewed on Sky saying that he doesn't view Cousins as a police officer. And she just said, if Sarah Everard had had the luxury, the same luxury of not viewing Cousins as a police officer, she would still be alive. And I think that's the key. That's one of the key things. When is it going to stop? When are women going to stop being murdered by men? Not just women, obviously, just anybody that a certain type of man decides to prey on, basically. And that's the feeling. It's impossible to feel like a safe, responsible, capable, empowered person when you could be

taken at absolutely any moment, even when you're doing everything in heavily inverted commas, right. The rage that has poured out of people, of women in particular, on social media yesterday, I mean, it was palpable. And that's why I'm speaking to you. I saw some of your messages. I think in this instance, and in most instances, really, rage is something that is born from frustration, whether it is from feeling impotent about something. And in this instance, I think it's the fact that it's not just Sarah Everard, who's appalling, appalling treatment and ending, because that's what it was. It wasn't ending, was detailed so incredibly graphically yesterday. And what an appalling experience for her parents. because that's what it was, it wasn't ending, was detailed so incredibly graphically yesterday. And what an appalling experience for her parents. But it's also, it's linked up with Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman last year, and police swapping messages about them and

photographs and laughing about them. It's about Sabina Nasser. It's about Julia James. And it's about the 118 names that Jess Phillips, the MP, read out earlier this year, as she does every year, a full four minutes of women who have been killed due to male violence. And something that was also additionally shocking was a statistic that came out in The Guardian yesterday, which is that 15 women have been killed since 2009 by serving or former police officers. And that detail, that particular detail about Sarah Everard being handcuffed, I saw so many people resurfacing pictures from the unofficial vigil that happened just before Mother's Day, and dreadful, dreadful irony of women from the protest who were being handcuffed and taken away for expressing peaceful protest and for being there to bear witness to the death of Sarah Everard and everybody else who has been killed by male violence and who didn't get such a huge media

story from their death. Just finally, what are you feeling today? What's your emotion today? I just feel so sad. I feel completely devastated, frankly. I remember when my mother's elder sister died, rather than my mum being upset for her and how she felt she was completely devastated for my grandmother because as my mum said no parent should ever have to bury their child and that's happened so many times over the past year and to see the dignity and the bravery and the courage of Mr and Mrs Everard reading out their victim impact statements yesterday and making that man look at them. And he couldn't even look at them. I think that was truly extraordinary. Kat Brown, a listener to the programme and a freelance journalist. If you want

to get in touch with how you are doing today, the emotions that you have experienced, what you want to say, text me here at Woman's App, 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, you can get in touch at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. And before I go to my first guest, the author of the Government Commissioned Report saying authorities need to treat violence against women as seriously as terrorism, I'll be talking to Zoe Billingham shortly. I want to give to Zoe Billingham shortly. I want to give you the chance to hear more of Susan Everard's victim impact statement. You will have heard clips of it in the news, perhaps, quotes.

But what she had to say about her daughter in her own words. Susan Everard read this yesterday in the court. She was the first of the Everard family to deliver her victim impact statement to a packed but silent court ten of the Old Bailey. She looked at Wayne Cousins, he had his head down the whole time, and the family asked for him to look up and look at them. The silence during her statement was occasionally broken by the sounds of sobs coming from the public gallery as well as of that of the court and the press benches. I have voiced up parts of her statement.

Sarah is gone and I am broken-hearted. She was my precious little girl, our youngest child. The feeling of loss is so great it is visceral and with the sorrow comes waves of panic not being able to see her again. I can never talk to her, never hold her again, and never more be a part of her life. We have kept her dressing gown, it still smells of her, and I hug that instead of her. Sarah died in horrendous circumstances. I am tormented at the thought of what she endured. I play it out in my mind. I go through the terrible sequence of events. I wonder when she realised she was in mortal danger. I wonder what her murderer

said to her, when he strangled her, for how long she was conscious, knowing she would die. It is torture to think of it. Sarah was handcuffed, unable to defend herself, and there was no one to rescue her. She spent her last hours on this earth with the very worst of humanity. She lost her life because Wayne Cousins wanted to satisfy his perverted desires. It is a ridiculous reason. It is nonsensical. How could he value a human life so cheaply? I cannot comprehend it. I am incandescent with rage at the thought of it. He treated my daughter as if she was nothing and disposed of her as if she was rubbish. Susan Everard went on to say of Sarah, I yearn for her. I remember all the lovely things about her.

She was caring. She was funny. She was clever, but she was good at practical things too. She was a beautiful dancer, she was a wonderful daughter. She was always there to listen, to advise, or simply to share with the minutiae of the day. And she was a strongly principled young woman who knew right from wrong and who lived by those values. She was a good person. She had purpose to her life. As Susan Everard was

coming to a close, she said this, I think of Sarah all the time, but the mornings and evenings are particularly painful. In the morning, I wake up to the awful reality that Sarah is gone. In the evenings, at the time she was abducted, I let out a silent scream, don't get in the car, Sarah, don't believe him, run. I am repulsed by the thought of Wayne Cousins and what he did to Sarah. I am outraged that he masqueraded as a policeman in order to get what he wanted. Sarah wanted to get married and have children, and now all of that is gone. He took her life and stole her future, and we will never have the joy of sharing that future with her. Susan Everard's victim impact statement, remembering her daughter, Sarah Everard,

which you're doing as well in your droves today. A message here last night, I dreamt of Sarah, Sabina, Bieber and Nicole. It is hard to explain to the men in my life why this feels so personal. Penny says, while women are still being murdered on the streets, we do not live in a civilised society. Another one here. Yesterday, I read the victim impact statements from Sarah Everard's family and they didn't make me want to cry. They made me fiercely angry in fact I am filled with rage I raged at my husband this morning why are men doing this I'm not sure what to do with the sadness and the rage all I've learned over the past 20 years leads me to believe that I can bring awareness to those emotions and I can share them but I want to do more what can I do and more

messages coming in and I very much want to keep hearing your voices throughout the programme. 84844 is the number you need to text or email us through the website or on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Well, you talk about actions and what can one do? My first guest today is Zoe Billingham, one of the top inspectors at Her Majesty's

Inspectorate of Constabulary. She's responsible for inspecting 15 police forces, including Kent Police, where Wayne Cousins used to work, and was accused of indecent exposure in 2015. Two weeks ago, on the day that Sabina Nessa was murdered, Zoe published a damning report into the way an epidemic of violence against women and girls is being handled.

She called for the prevention of these crimes to be taken as seriously by police and government as counter-terrorism. That report, to remind you, was commissioned by the Home Secretary Priti Patel in the wake of Sarah Everard's death. Good morning Zoe Billingham. Morning Emma. It is quite an important morning to be with you ahead of Wayne Cousins in sentencing. We now know that he used his police ID and handcuffs to kidnap Sarah Everard, falsely arresting her for breaking Covid rules. What is your reaction to that detail? Deepest sadness, of course, for Sarah's family, for Jeremy, Susan and Katie, whose most profound testimony we heard yesterday. And like many of your listeners, Emma, deep, deep anger. Deep anger that a serving police officer

was able to abduct a beautiful young woman from our streets and kill her in the most horrific manner. And I think this is a watershed moment for policing. I think that we cannot abide by the narrative that this was a one-off, that he was a badden. And I think every force now in the country must look to re-establish trust and legitimacy because what Wayne Cousins did to Sarah Everard

has struck a hammer blow to the heart of policing legitimacy in England and Wales. It needs to be treated as thus and I'd call on every force in the country to now account immediately, not tomorrow, today, to account immediately to its communities as to exactly what it's going to do to ensure that this can never happen again. And there are a whole range of things that I would expect the police to be doing to make sure that they are vetting, that they are screening, that they are scrutinising, that they are asking themselves, what type of person do we want in policing? What checks and safeguards are we going to put in place to ensure this can never

happen again? I'll talk about the police more broadly in just a moment but we we do also know that Wayne Cousins was accused of indecent exposure six years before he murdered Sarah Everard. Kent Police which I believe comes under your watch is now being investigated by the Independent Office for Police Conduct the IOPC over whether it handled the allegations in 2015 properly. The IOPC, we should say, is also examining allegations that the Met Police, which is where he then moved to, did not investigate adequately another claim

that Wayne Cousins had exposed himself. That alleged incident happened in South London only days before the killing. You inspect Kent Police. Why wasn't this spotted? How was he allowed to keep on keeping on? And of course, Emma, it's absolutely vital that the Independent Office of Police Conduct

reviews these cases and reports very rapidly. I led a report not that long ago looking at the abusive position by police officers for sexual purposes. I called it shining a light on betrayal. And what was very clear to me, very clear, and we made very significant recommendations to policing, is that the police have not got in place in most places

sufficient resources in their counter-corruption units to be able to identify poor behaviours, suspect behaviours, areas where male officers may be looking to have inappropriate relationships with victims. They weren't putting their resources into the counter-corruption units effectively to be able to prevent these sorts of abuses of position happening. We were also really concerned that police officers weren't being appropriately vetted. And again, this is an issue that we raised. We were very clear that when police officers transfer from one force to another, that's a point in time where a question

has to be asked, why is that person transferring? Anecdotal evidence, and it was only anecdotal evidence at the time, told us that people move forces and jump before they're caught out. And so we were shocked at the time that there was no requirement when police move from one force to another, that there was new vetting in place and questions asked about their background in their parent force. When did you do this report? This was in 2019, September, almost a year to two years to today. Because a bit like Ofsted, you can carry out in schools investigations and make recommendations, but you can't actually do anything, can you? The only thing that we can do is go in, shine a light on behalf of the public and make recommendations.

I mean, Ofsted's different, I should say, in other ways, but just trying to bring it alive to our listeners what your role is. Precisely. Our power is to go in, shine a light, make recommendations. So will those recommendations take it? So in terms of the question around whether or not transferries are vetted appropriately, yes. I'm pleased to say that immediately the National Police Chiefs Council... Until 2019, in this country, you could move from police force to police force without being vetted before you joined the new police force. Quite extraordinary, isn't it? Yes, that was the case and that's what we exposed. And to come back to Wayne Cousins and Kent Police, which you cover as part of your inspectorate.

Can I ask you that question again? Why is Kent Police now being looked into? Why wasn't this looked into at the time properly? Well quite rightly you're asking that question Emma and quite rightly. Yes but I'm not in your job. The way that this works is that it is for the Independent Office of Police Conduct to review that particular instance. Yes they'll review at that particular instance. But what's your role when something like that has come up at Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary? So our role is to identify where there's failings in forces,

and that we did. We looked at whether or not forces have sufficient capability and capacity in their counter-corruption units, and we called on forces to change and what we're now doing so that's how wayne cousins with this allegation could have slipped through the net obviously that's something that the independent office of police conduct has to look at what we what i'm driving at is who is policing the police do you think you're stepping down now i should say as well to our listeners do you leave feeling like anyone is effectively policing the police in this country I feel that this case has

exposed great concerns for women and girls in England and Wales and I feel that much more needs to be done in order to change the position that we find ourselves in. I think it's absolutely vital, as we are now doing, as we're now doing, Emma, we are going back into forces. As we speak today, we are back in forces, checking again, whether or not the suggestions, the recommendations that we demanded have actually been acted on. And if they haven't, then we will say again that something needs to change,

that action needs to be taken. And what I'm saying today is that we cannot write off the act of Wayne Cousins, which is a betrayal for all officers, staff and PCSOs. We cannot write that off as that's a one-off. We must insist that police now ensure absolutely there are systems in place to stop this happening again for the future so do you not think there are systems in place right now that's what i'm trying to drive at do you not think that you can speak freely you're leaving go on quite clearly what we found when we looked at this is that there weren't systems in

place did you still not think today speaking to me on the day Wayne Cousins is being sentenced, do you still not think there are systems in place? I think we still need to be shown by police forces themselves, they need to stand up and account to their communities that they do have those systems in place because we have yet to see and say with certainty that this may not happen again. You can't say to our listeners today with with certainty that this may not happen again and therefore why you can't you can't say to our listeners today with that certainty that i don't think i can can we just stop on that for a moment yes because there will be a lot of and i'm very aware a lot of our listeners will also work in the police either as officers or in other roles and they will be thinking this is an extraordinary case because it doesn't happen that often. It's not normal to be arrested, falsely arrested, I should keep stressing, by a police officer and then have what happened to Sarah Everard.

It isn't the norm at all. But there will be and could be a disproportionate impact, as you've been saying, on women's ability to trust police. Yes, absolutely. That's the bigger damage as well here, as well as the huge unimaginable loss to the Everard family that I do not wish to lose sight of. But you're sitting here as the outgoing, one of the top inspectors,

Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, saying you cannot say to our listeners today that you believe that there are systems and processes in place within the police forces right now to make sure this never happens again. I can't say that. And that's why I'm saying today is a watershed moment

and a defining moment for policing. We've said before that police need to invest in making sure that police officers are vetted. We've talked about making sure that police officers, when they transfer from one force to another, are properly vetted, making sure that counter-corruption units are taking lines of intelligence about police officers that are behaving oddly. What about constables stepping down?

How bad does it have to be for somebody to step down? I'm thinking of what the public will see after the sentencing. We had a statement yesterday from the Metropolitan Police, but we're also going to probably hear from Cressida Dick today, the chief Constable of the Met. There's also been calls for her to step down, by the way, I'm sure you'll be aware, from other people, high profile people such as Baroness Lawrence, Doreen Lawrence, Lady Diana Britton, the widow of the former Conservative Home Secretary. They came together earlier this

month with other victims of police injustice to call for her replacement. Should Cressida Dick still be in the job, in your opinion? We need to hear what the Metropolitan Police, and I expect, like you, Emma, it will be Cressida Dick that will talk later on today after the sentencing of Wayne Cousins. We absolutely need to hear what the Metropolitan Police is going to do in respect of the findings insofar as they affect that organisation. It's imperative that

we hear that and we hear it clearly, I suspect from Cressida. I think it's really important that what we're saying today is that this issue is an issue for the Metropolitan Police, but it is also, we say as the Inspectorate of Constabulary, an issue for every single force in England and Wales. It is not good enough for us to write Wayne Cousins off as an aberration, as a betrayal to policing, as a one-off, as a bad a bad on something that's never going to happen again. We are really clear that every force in the country today, not tomorrow, must look, check, review and assure its public that it has in place the mechanisms and the systems in order to stop this happening again. You've asked me quite rightly, Emma, can I as an outgoing HMI say hand on heart that every force in the country has those systems in

place? From what I've seen most recently when I looked at this, no, I can't say that. But what I can say today... Why don't you think they've got them? Because a whole range of reasons. I think that the forces have not necessarily treated as the highest priority. A whole range of issues relating to violence against women and girls, male violence against women and girls,

and that's what we started to talk about at the beginning of our conversation. Our report that we published... It's about the culture of the police. Locker room banter, the way that the police at times have been reported. We did a big thing about this recently on the programme from the Centre of Women's Justice, talking about some of the findings with regards to domestic violence

accusations by serving police officers within their own homes. Is it cultural? We've seen some of that and we've looked at the extent to which police officers are dealt with appropriately when they themselves are accused of perpetrating violence against women and girls and there are changes that certainly police forces need to make and there needs to be much more scrutiny of the way in which forces deal with offenders within their own workforce. I mean, the police are there to protect the public, Emma. There cannot be any place for predators within policing. But let me ask you just again a slightly different way about Cressida Dick.

With your work that you have done and the expertise that you have, is it the type of set of circumstances, what's happened with Wayne Cousins here and what was potentially missed, it's being looked into, is that the type of circumstance under which you would expect a chief constable to still be in their job? I would like to hear what the Metropolitan Police has to say later today. That's a matter for them. They must stand up and account for what's happened and for the changes that they're going to bring about. But we know what they're going to say. They tweeted yesterday.

We'll have had their PR and media people draft a very similar statement from Cressida Dick today. The statement yesterday, Wayne Cousins will be sentenced for the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard over the next two days. We're sickened, angered, devastated by these crimes. You know, they betray everything we stand for. We recognise his actions, raise many concerns.

We'll comment further when the hearing is complete. We also heard from Cresta Dick at the beginning of this. What could she possibly say that you're waiting to hear that she hasn't already said? Emma, you're rightly asking me these questions, but these questions are questions that Cresta Dick, the leader of the Metropolitan Police Service, must stand up and answer. What we're really clear about, and you talked about this in your introduction, Emma, we published a report two weeks ago on the same day, we didn't know, obviously, on the same day of the tragic death of Sabine Nessa, we say that there is an epidemic of violence against women and girls. Within policing, violence against women and girls,

male violence against women and girls is not prioritised enough. It's not taken seriously enough. It's not dealt with. Can I just ask, just on that, because you've talked about the systems around it, do you think police forces have adequate whistleblowing provision in terms of officers policing their own? What we found when we looked at this is most forces now do have in place a whistleblowing hotline and most forces have in place training for their officers to be able to spot inappropriate suspect behaviour that can lead to an escalate to abuse of position for sexual purposes.

That we can say with certainty most forces have put in place. What most forces haven't put in place is sufficient capacity within their counter-corruption units to proactively work on intelligence leads that they get from those whistleblowing hotlines to make sure that if someone is suspect, if someone is repeatedly returning to a particular victim's home, if it looks like a police officer is searching police systems for details of victims' phone numbers and so on, that sort of thing, that absolutely needs to be stopped. And two-thirds

of police forces, when we looked at this, didn't have sufficient capacity. They didn't have enough staff in their counter-corruption units to actually be able to get on to the leads and the intelligence that was coming through and of course we said this needs to change and this needs to change immediately but in terms of the bigger picture Emma what we found in our report when we looked at as commissioned by the Home Secretary following Sarah's tragic death is we found that actually within policing these crimes against women and girls are simply not being prioritised in the same way as other crimes. These are pervasive. There are 1.6 million crimes against women relating to domestic abuse every single year. We've heard the figures about women's

death. Every three days a woman is killed at the hands of a man. And what's not happening is these crimes, which have the breadth and depth and harm, which is just eye-watering, they're not being treated with the same seriousness as, for example, high-harm complex crimes like terrorism, like serious and organised crime, like county lines. Of course, there are different sorts of crimes. But what we say needs to happen is there needs to be a clearer focus by the police on crimes against women and girls. Have you got any faith that's going to happen? There'll be a lot of people today saying you wrote that report

or it published, sorry, certainly two weeks ago. I do, actually. Despite everything that we've heard over the last day in respect of Sarah Everard, when we published our report two weeks ago, there was a universal acceptance by women, by victims and by those that have the women and girls violence is dealt with. This is too big for the police alone. There needs to be a new statutory duty that requires all partners. I asked the policing minister about that that day or the days after, excuse me, Kit Malthouse. He said he couldn't obviously make that decision.

I wasn't asking him to make it on the fly, on the air, but he said, you know, we're looking at it. It's not like they've jumped to it. We've made a very strong recommendation that there needs to be a new statutory duty, that all public agencies must work together to protect women and girls. We've said very clearly to the government that in order to signal their intent that this is indeed an absolute priority, crimes against women and girls needs to be included in what's called the strategic policing requirement. This is a document that sets out the most serious crimes.

And it's not just putting it in a document. What it does by including crimes against women and girls in the strategic policing requirement means that every chief constable in the country and every police and crime commissioner or mayor in the country has to have regard to and put in place effective action to stop crimes against women and girls happening. And what's giving you the confidence that any of that's going to happen and have the impact? So a number of things. Number one, this report was commissioned by the Home Secretary. Already she's appointed and she's about to come into place the National Coordinator who is going to, rather like Neil Basu in terms of the National

Coordinator for Counter-Terrorism, Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blythe is going to be the National Coordinator for Violence Against Women and Girls. And when we produced this report there was unanimity across the sector and across very many police and crime commissions to say, this is right, this has to happen. Well, we will see. Change is necessary, enough is enough. We will see. Just finally, can I ask you,

bringing us back to what's happening today with the sentencing of Wayne Cousins for Sarah Everard's murder and very much, again, want to say Sarah Everard's name here and think of her and her family and keep us front of mind. This is a very particular case with some particularities to it, some still also being looked at by police forces. But Zoe Billingham, as one of the outgoing top inspectors at Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, if you're just joining us, at night, how safe would you feel going to a male police officer with a problem?

At this moment in time, like any other woman, I have concerns and reservations. And that's why I say today we cannot dismiss Wayne Cousins as a one-off, as a rarity, as an aberration. We must see every single police force in England and Wales now stepping forward to tell its communities precisely what it's doing to ensure that women are safe. Would you not go to a male police officer? I would still go to a male police officer. I would ask that all victims of violence step forward and report this to the police because what we do know and what we've seen in the last seven years... It's just because the idea of a police officer having a badge

and misusing it is terrifying. It's terrifying and as I've said what Wayne Cousins has done has struck a hammer blow to the very heart of police legitimacy. We need to understand that for what it is and the police need to step up and now explain to their communities how they're going to keep women and girls safe. Zoe Billingham, thank you very much for your time and insights there. Many, many messages coming in. One from Jacqueline who says to yourself as well, Zoe, it's devastating to come to the conclusion that we're never going to be safe. I can't come to any other conclusion and I weep for all women. It's hopeless. Another one here, can we have a law that no policeman has the power to arrest and take away any lone woman without the accompanying presence of another woman or a policeman or a civilian friend or passerby?

A message there from Mary. I'm a retired police officer. My father was a police officer. My grandsons are serving police officer. I'm having problems typing this message because I'm shaking with rage that Wayne Cousins was a member of our police family. I changed police forces twice. I was thoroughly vetted. How did he get away from it? Another one here saying, who made overt sexual comments to her. She was shaking with fear. Violence and threats against women is endemic. He told her not to report him.

And so the messages go on. We've got so many coming in, especially again about how you're feeling today ahead of that sentencing. I'll come back to those messages if I can very shortly indeed. Zoe Billingham, thank you for your time. Now talking about a completely different subject and different area of the law or not, surrogacy in England and Wales has quadrupled over the past decade. But despite its increasing popularity, the laws regulating surrogacy and the rights of those involved haven't changed in the process of reviewing those laws, but finding a solution that respects the rights of the child, surrogate and intended parents on a practical and moral level, it's no

mean feat. I'm joined now by two experts who can help us navigate any of this. If you've perhaps had experience of this, we expect, of course, if you can, to share that with us. And we expect you've got questions as well. If you've nothing to do with this, but had questions yourself anyway, hopefully we can get some of the answers for you. The bioethicist and philosopher, Dr. Harjeet Marway from the University of Birmingham and senior lecturer in law, Dr. Claire Fenton-Glynn from the University of Cambridge. Welcome to both of you. Claire, if I could come to you first, just on the point around law.

What are the main parts of surrogacy law in the UK at the moment? Because for people who know anything about it, they feel it's quite informal. So the main thing about surrogacy in the United Kingdom is it must be altruistic, that it is based on a gift relationship between the surrogate and the intended parents. We also have a law that says surrogacy arrangements are null and void. So a contract that you enter into cannot be enforced. And the surrogate will be named as the legal mother upon birth. In order for the intended parents to gain legal parenthood, they have to go through a whole separate court process called a parental order in order to gain legal parenthood, they have to go through a whole separate court process called a parental order in order to gain this, and it needs the consent of the surrogate to do so.

And how many people are going through? Do we have numbers? We have some indication, but one of the things is that it's not obligatory to get a parental order. So we know that there are a lot more surrogacy arrangements going on than we actually have records of. This is particularly the case with international surrogacies that often people don't know that they need a parental order when they come back to the United Kingdom. And therefore, there may be a lot going under the radar. So we have some indication from numbers, from the court service, but it's not a complete picture. And the main problems at the moment, just to stick with you, Claire,

for a moment, in terms of what the Law Commission are trying to iron out in the current system? So one of the main problems we have is that there is a lot of circumvention of the law and there's not a lot that we can do to prevent that. So the courts are told that they have to consider the best interest of the child as the paramount consideration when deciding whether to make a parental order. And one of the consequences of that is that some of the rules regarding the parental order, for example, that the application must be made within six months of birth, are simply swept away in order to enforce these children's rights. So this means that the courts are often not able to enforce the rules as a setting down in statute because they have to have account to the child's best interest and ensure that they are protected. And that usually means granting a parental order to recognise the legal parenthood of the people who will be acting as parents as this child grows.

Let me bring in Dr. Herjit Mawar at this point. Good morning. Good morning. We just heard around the UK having this altruistic model then in terms of, I thought we could start with the issues around payment and consent. Some people have issues with this or feel like there may be issues with this about if it was formalised in any way or even money exchanging hands in any way to it being morally equivalent to buying a child what would you say to that? Yeah so I think that is often a shorthand way in which people interpret it but I think it could be

a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to some of these issues and certainly payments are one of the kind of key thorny philosophical and ethical issues around this especially whether surrogacy itself is like work like any other kind and should be compensated um so lots of philosophers kind of think that actually is work like other kinds you're going through uh labor literally you're delivering a child um it's 24 7 um for nine months and thereafter for recovery um and there's lots of, you know, it's not a romanticised process, it's messy and difficult to go through. And so it should be considered work and it should be paid and you have all the safeguards and protections that work sometimes often brings, for instance, regulation and a wage and so forth. But of course, the other

side of the argument is that perhaps we're allowing the marketplace to encroach on areas of life that we don't want the marketplace to exist within. And so philosophers, you know, often point to various examples of this, where if, say, we could buy friendship, it would suddenly kind of change what the nature and meaning of friendship is. People will be doing things out of contractual obligation rather than what we take friendship to be about, doing things about love or care or whatnot. And so it might change the very nature and meaning of what we're doing. And so I think they're the kind of key ethical issues around payments.

But I think it's also important to note that there is money exchanged. It's just done in different ways currently in the UK. So, for instance, there's expenses paid, but not a wage or a lump sum or anything like that. I mean, and also we should say, so it can be averages around £12,000 paid to the surrogate in this country. Nothing compared to £100,000 you could pay plus in the US. But it's not insignificant. On a global scale, women who become surrogates do tend to be poorer than the people who engage the surrogate.

Should that be taken as evidence that at its heart, surrogacy is about exploitation to some degree? And how much does the current setup in the UK try and mitigate against that? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it's certainly true on a global scale that that's the patterns. But it's not untrue of the UK either. The Law Commission in their report mentions this, they sort of say, although there are vulnerable parties in any surrogacy arrangement in the UK, most people acknowledge that surrogates in the UK are kind of less socially and materially from a privileged place compared to intended parents so I think it happens here as well

and I think it does matter I think there is certainly there's exploitation that can happen in particular transactions where one party gets more than another or does more than another but it can happen in the way that you suggested Emma so that certain kinds of people are coming forward and being surrogates and certain kinds of people are the ones using surrogacy and that's certainly a worry around exploitation. If we think surrogacy is valuable and great to do like perhaps we should be asking white middle-class women to be doing some of the work of surrogacy as well rather rather than the patterns at the moment, which are a lot poorer women, women of colour and so forth. Yeah, I mean, we should also just point out those asking for this are not just women. They are, you know, gay male couples or even men on their own now as well.

We had somebody on the programme recently and some people feel very uncomfortable. Just to bring you back in at this point, Claire, some people feel very uncomfortable about that element. So there's a discussion about whether or not there should be a genetic relationship between the intended parents and the child themselves. There's definitely countries where same sex couples cannot go through surrogacy. That's not the case in the United Kingdom. And from the beginning, there has been recognition that same-sex couples have the same rights to enter into surrogacy or to gain a parental order. And just to be clear, when I said some people feel uncomfortable about that,

some people may feel uncomfortable about the same-sex element, but actually what I was referring to is the idea of men commissioning women to have children for them as well. That whole idea of wombs for sale, just to clarify that other point, because I remember a few messages we got in when we last discussed it, but do carry on, Claire. Yeah, so there are definitely countries that legislate on this basis, that they believe that surrogacy, either altruistic or commercial, is actually exploitative of women, that women are being treated as exchangeable, as kind of wombs on legs that people are putting a product in, that is the sperm and the eggs, and basically demanding a product back.

And this goes back to your question about the idea of buying a child. So there are different ways that different countries conceptualise surrogacy and conceptualise the exploitation that could be occurring here. And in terms of where we, I suppose, might come out on this, Haji, because of course the other side again, or another side, I should say, rather than making it sound like there's just two, because there obviously isn't here, is that it's an amazing gift to be able to give people who cannot have a child, a child. And I suppose, how do you keep that alive in the midst of these questions, Haji?

Yeah, I think that's right. I think lots of the surrogates I've had interaction with certainly express that, that they want to do something, this amazing gift that they're offering to people who can't have children, including gay couples, including single people. And so the question is, do we think this is valuable to do? Do we think that we should uh alternatively that is it not value is it valuable is it something we should prohibit

and i think we should listen to the lived experiences of people as part of that and there are people you know as the report says there's a increase in demand for surrogacy and so that's that's important to pay attention to the The question, I think, is whether we can do it fairly and whether we can do it in an ethical way. And in terms of who the parent should be, some questions about that. Haji, to start with you, the Law Commission is considering changing their recommendations so that the intended parents are the legal parents from the start. But where does that leave the surrogate? Yeah, so I think there are kind of issues here. So one kind of point is that I think my understanding of the law

is that the person who gives birth is the person who gets to make certain decisions for the child. And you can see the reason for that, right? The child has emerged from this period of gestational labor um and actual birthing from this the surrogate um and there's also i think there are questions about what what do we think is valuable in um in creating families is the biological link the most important thing um and to me it's not especially clear that is the at least only thing that should decide these things

I think gestational relationships are important as well as social relationships as well as you know the biological ones as well so and I think what's important is how the child might in the future conceive of what's important for them as a family perhaps the child wants to think of families as a more broader concept than just the biological parents that are involved. Perhaps they think that surrogate is part of the story of their creation. And that's important to acknowledge in terms of transparency and honesty in the whole process. Claire, just finally then to come to you, you know, we started talking about UK law. We've obviously tried to reflect a little bit of what's going on around the world. But you also say the overall aim is to try and keep people using surrogates here in the UK so it can be better controlled and regulated. But looking at surrogacy websites that we looked

at yesterday, there is a shortage, I understand, of UK surrogates and foreign surrogacy, it seems, in whatever form sounds like that's here to stay, Claire. Well, one of the aims, as you say, of the Law Commission is to encourage people to do this domestically. And one of the reasons for that is that there can be more control, that it lessens concerns about exploitation, because what the Law Commission is currently suggesting is that before the child is even conceived, there can be a body which looks at what is the relationship between the intended parents and the surrogate. Is there an uneven relationship that is being exploited here? Does everyone understand the process?

Have they had appropriate counselling, et cetera? And in return for going through that process pre-birth, then the intended parents would be recognised as legal parents on the birth of the child and subject to perhaps the ability of the surrogate to object. And so one of the consequences of this is that people might be encouraged by the greater certainty in this process that one of the problems that, you know, one of the reasons why you're talking about this is because the laws around surrogacy are so difficult to navigate. And that may be one of the reasons that people aren't keen to become

surrogates, that it is difficult to know what you can do, what you can't do, whether you're breaking the law or not. And this will provide that clarity that people are seeking. Our Law Commission right now is in the process of reviewing those laws. Thanks for taking us through quite a bit of it, actually. I mean, it's complicated, but we really appreciate you as our guides. Dr. Claire Fenton-Glynn from the University of Cambridge, Dr. Herjit Mawai from the University of Birmingham. Now, my next guests went from dancing in this...

Wake me up before you go, go Don't leave me hanging on like a yo-yo Wake me up before you go, go I don't want to miss it when you hit that high Wake me up... ...to striking out on their own and singing this. To the 80s pop stars, Pepsi and Shirley, the female pop duo who released hits such as Heartache and Goodbye Stranger,

but started life as the backing singers and amazing dancers for Wham! They performed, of course, with George Michael and Andrew Ridgely for three years, appearing in many of those iconic music videos such as Wake Me Up Before You Go, Go Freedom and Last Christmas Before, striking out on their own

and they're back together again with a new book an autobiography, Pepsi and Shirley It's All in Black and White and Pepsi, Demac Crockett and Shirley Kemp join me now Good morning to you both Good morning We can get a little bit of joy in

today's show We must send our condolences to the Everard family because it's such a tragic, tragic loss. And yeah, Shirley and I feel it very deeply. Absolutely. But today we're here to inject joy into the world. That's why we're here. Well, I think we'll all take that quite readily.

And thank you very much for being with us. Pepsi, I just wanted to start by saying, you know, is it is it right that you were offered either to be a singer in the band with Wham or a dancer and you picked the dancer? Tell us what happened there, kind of how it all began. Well, Shirley was always fantastic. She always made me feel very comfortable and relaxed in the atmosphere of Wham you know I was the new girl and I remember pulling her aside after a days of rehearsal and I said Cheryl so when are we going to sing and she sort of looked at me and it was the first time she didn't really say anything because it was like oh and then she said I'll get Andrew to talk to you

so Andrew spoke to me put his arm around me said look pets you fit in so nicely Shirley loves you George wants you to be with us up front and I want you to be with us up front do you want to be up front or do you want to be in the back and And I was like, I'll be up front with you. And I think that's a good choice, don't you? I said the right thing. So I ended up being up front where all the action was. And people will definitely remember, Shirley, what you were doing up front and how you looked and how you came across.

I think one of the producers here I was talking to, who's huge fans of yours, would, it always looked like so much fun. Shirley, was it? It was fun. And all we were really doing was what we were actually doing in real life, which was we would go clubbing, go dancing, rehearse the dance move in Georgie's bedroom.

Because in the 80s, there used to be this boy and girl dance that you did, this new romantic dance. So we had it down to a fine art. So when it came to the boys saying we need to create a performance for wham like a vehicle for it they said would you come and dance with us and it kind of started from there so it wasn't something that we kind of was thought about this is how it should be it was just we just were doing what we did out on

you know of an evening on stage i love the idea you were doing it in George Michael's bedroom as well. Yep. For years we used to rehearse in his bedroom. And in terms of the relationship between you two, did you hit it off straight away? Pepsi, was that a kind of bond between you as women? Oh, my goodness me. I remember arriving at Finsbury Park station it was the first time I actually met Shirley she got me into a little sort of little pixie lovely little car and I was like so impressed she's got a car and um I sat down Ford Capri to be exact I always get that wrong um and um I remember sitting down and it was like, oh, just sat down.

And instantly I felt comfortable. I actually hadn't made any effort as far as like dressing up as a YM girl. I just rocked up as myself. And instantly Shirley and I just started chatting about music. And I had my tape, my demo tape tape in my bag and I was like really gagging to put it in the cassette and I said to her do you want to hear my tape do you want to hear me sing and she says yeah yeah sure and um she put the tape in and she complimented me by saying you sound like Shirley Bassey and then we just started talking about Shirley Bassey

and you were off both our fathers were real fans of Shirley Bassey and we were off and that was it that was it there's a whole load of memories you can tell us about how you bonded especially if it was what you were just doing in the clubs and then back onto the stage and some of those videos

they're just so iconic Shirley was there one that stood out for you? Well, there were two, actually. My two favourites are Club Tropicana because it was a holiday. Any video that you did in the 80s that was a holiday, you took it as a bonus. So Club Tropicana was made in Ibiza. Oh, brilliant. And, I mean, they really kind of made that hotel, which was Pike's Hotel,

which is now quite famous for pop stars going there and parties. And the other video was Last Christmas, which was in Sass Bay in Switzerland. And once again, as I said earlier, we were just creating havoc in Switzerland. How the director made a film of that. Everyone was throwing snowballs at him. Every time he said turn left, we would go right because we were all friends. It was all friends it was all friends in the video so it really warms me every Christmas when that video comes on I'm

setting the table up with plates and we're all kind of looking at each other under the mistletoe and yeah that's it's a beautiful video it is well it's lovely to I love hearing the stories about something you've seen so many times and how it actually was for the people involved at pepsi what was the moment you decided to to be the two of you well again i have to say i say again because shirley's very good at this at persuading me to do things that i don't initially start to feel instantly comfortable with but it was the you know it was coming we knew knew that WAM was kind of coming to an end. And Shirley kept saying to me, you know, Peps, you know, we should do something, you know, we should do something. And we had a guy who used to be a plugger called Gary Farrow,

who was also asking girls, you should really do something, you should really do something you should really do something but it was Shirley that said look peps you know I really think people want to know what we're going to do next so with a lot of persuasion and lots of cups of tea and lots of hugs and hold handing um it was like well if you think people really want to know who we are and what we do after this, okay, I'll do it. Because I wanted to go off and do like soul music and R&B and sort of real kind of club tunes. That's what I wanted to do. But Shirley really persuaded me and it was the best decision, another best decision I made.

So here we are, Pettis and Shirley. You've got to take some credit for this but it was a very different time wasn't it as well for women in the music industry Shirley it was well you know like times are changing anyway like Martin I my husband I had an album out a few years ago what was wonderful was everyone who we were working around was women. The lady who signed us, there was about PR. Everyone was female in the whole. Whereas looking back at the 80s, it was a very, very male dominated environment.

But luckily, Pepsi and I had grown up in big families with brothers. And I always say the times my brother used to have wrestling with me and it kind of made me stand up to men a lot more. And so there were times when, you know, we would, Pepsi and I would be shouting at them saying, no, we're not doing this. And they would give in because we were just so adamant, you know, we weren't going to be pushed around. So it was hard, but I don't think we kind of suffered from it at the time, because I think we were quite strong minded what we wanted to do. I I mean I could hang out with you two even though we've only got this small amount of time

together for a long time and I'm sure people would have listened to what you're saying. Well the book makes you feel like that and I was looking up and listening back to some of your music and thank you I'll take you up on that if I can and one of the most searchable things if you put your names into the google is where are they now into google and people wouldn't know and and the love that people still have for you is that is that just a wonderful thing to be able to tap into now pepsi through the book oh my gosh it's it's overwhelming because the thing about the 80s you know i somehow i think about my parents you know back in the day it was so great you know the 80s it was a time of individuality having fun so our fans are all part of that it's it was a good time it was they're constantly wanting to reminisce with us so us getting together and putting it all in a book for them has been an absolute delight.

So we've taken, you know, our time growing up, Wham, Pepsi and Shirley and where we are now. And you're still friends. That's that's the lovely part of it. Yes, yes, we are still friends. And that's not always the case at the end of these things or when they come to an end. Pepsi and Shirley, thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you for having us on. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's lovely. It's so lovely to have you. The book's called Pepsi and Shirley. It's all in black and white. And just before I go today, I wanted to read this message saying,

which has come in so many messages today. I wish we could convey to Sarah Everard's mother, Susan, that we are all carrying Sarah in our hearts. We will try in some tiny way to share her burden and torment by sending our love as women and mothers, holding all the family in our hearts. Remembering Sarah Everard today. Thank you very much. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello there, I'm Richard Osman. Before you go, yes, I know you've switched off already, but in case you haven't, I want to tell you about my new Radio 4 podcast, The Birthday

Cake Game, a brand new comedy quiz that poses one simple question. Do you know how old people are? By which I mean, how old, say, is Bruce Willis? Hmm. Now, I know all you're doing now is thinking about how old Bruce Willis is and not listening to me, but I can tell you, each episode I'm joined by three celebrity guests who battle against each other to see how old celebrities are that week. Richard Gere. I'm still enjoying the assertion that Richard Gere has always been old.

What a beautiful baby, Mrs Gere. Unusual grey hair. So old, your baby. The winner takes home a birthday cake. A very special birthday cake from a supermarket I can't mention in the shape of an insect I can't mention. You know the one I'm talking about. So tune in to find out who comes on top

and see if you can beat the players and score higher at home. That's the birthday cake game. Listen and subscribe right now on BBC Sounds. How old is Bruce Willis? I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.