Woman's Hour - Sarah Everard's murder 3 years on, Jess Phillips MP and Baroness Ruth Davidson, singer CMAT

Episode Date: March 4, 2024

On the 3rd March 2021, Sarah Everard was murdered by Wayne Couzens, an off-duty police officer. The incident sparked national outrage and a surge in fighting violence against women and girls. Three years on, how much has changed? Emma Barnett speaks to the Detective Inspector who interviewed Wayne Couzens, Nick Harvey, and former Detective Superintendent Shabnam Chaudri.If you’ve browsed through political podcasts recently, you’d be forgiven for thinking the guys have got that particular market cornered. There’s The Rest is Politics with Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell, Political Currency with Ed Balls and George Osborne, and Politics at Jack and Sam’s. That may be about to change, with an all-female line-up on new podcast Electoral Dysfunction, featuring Sky News political editor Beth Rigby, Labour MP Jess Phillips and Conservative peer and former Scottish party leader Ruth Davidson. Jess and Ruth join Emma Barnett to tell her what they’ll be covering.Poet Hollie McNish is back with a new book, with her unique and hugely relatable take on all kinds of taboos, on subjects ranging from friendships, parenthood and breastfeeding, to periods, UTIs and vulvas. Her live readings are often blush inducing, with plenty of adult content and strong language. She’s talking to Emma Barnett about her inspiration behind the book of poetry and prose ‘Lobster and other things I’m learning to love’. Ciara Mary-Alice Thompson, better known as CMAT, is an Irish singer, songwriter, and musician. Playing country-tinged pop, both of her albums have topped the Irish Albums Chart. She was longlisted for the BBC's Sound of 2024 and joins Emma fresh from the BRIT awards, where she was nominated for Best International Artist. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. You may not have realised it and there is no reason that you should, but yesterday marked three years since the abduction, rape and murder of Sarah Everard. The killing of Sarah by a serving police officer

was one of those moments that stopped us all. And you just may not have taken in that yesterday was the third anniversary, but for those close to her, her family, it's very much in their minds. And it's being put on the agenda of our politicians and law enforcers to try to grapple with how to keep women and girls safe. You're going to hear today on Woman's Hour from the male police officer who first interviewed Wayne Cousins during the hunt for Sarah. Wayne Cousins is now serving a whole life sentence for her rape and murder. Also on today's programme, two politicians who have a lot to say generally, but also on women's safety, Labour's Jess Phillips and the Conservative peer Ruth Davidson. They've teamed up for a new project,

which we'll also get to. The poet Holly McNish is here and has the most wonderful poem to share about ageing and another one on friendship. I promise you, truly spine-tingling stuff. And the Irish musician showing a lot of cheek. C-Mat, who may have missed out on Best International Artist this weekend at the Brits, but made sure everybody had a good look at her. If you know, you know. If you don't, I'll tell you.

She'll be performing live on the programme. Interestingly, she credits some of her success to a session with the British musician Charlie XCX, who gave us some much needed advice about how to navigate the music industry a few years ago. She's also credited Charlie XCX by the big Brit winner Ray for helping her out too. Fairy godmothers then, who's been yours in your life? Who's helped you better realise your potential? I was thinking about this this morning. Two of mine are men, fairy godfathers, called Peter and Bob. That's a whole other story. But there have also been several key women.

My actual godmother, to name one, and I wanted to this morning, my late Auntie Jean. Who's yours? The number you need, 84844 to text. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email me. Many of you do. I always love seeing those.

Please do get in touch via the Woman's Hour website. Or if WhatsApp is how you like to communicate, you can send a voice note or message to 03 700 100 444. But first, three years ago yesterday, Sarah Everard was abducted, raped and murdered by Wayne Cousins, a police officer with the Metropolitan Force. What followed was national outrage, protests by women and a dramatic fall in public trust of the police.

You may remember Baroness Louise Casey conducted a review into the Metropolitan Police, concluding that it was, among other things, institutionally racist and misogynist. Last week, another independent review found that Wayne Cousins should never have been a police officer, that opportunities were missed to stop him. In a moment, we'll hear more of those recommendations and what has been said since that, and a statement from the Home Office. I'll also be joined by the former Detective Superintendent at the Met Police, Shabnam Chowdhury, who can tell us what, if anything, has changed in the last three years.

But first to the man who led the arrest for Wayne Cousins. He is Nick Harvey, and as a Detective Inspector for the Met, he was responsible for finding Cousins at his home and conducting the urgent interview. Nick features in a new BBC One documentary, Sarah Everard, The Fight for Justice, which I should tell you is airing tomorrow night. Good morning, Nick. Morning. Thank you for being with us today. I understand, as I just said there, that you were the detective who led the arrest of Wayne Cousins. Could you take us back to that time? Yeah, sure. So I was at the time running a specialist crime unit and was essentially assisting DCI Goodwin with the missing persons investigation.

So we were looking at the call data and looking to see whether or not there were any changes, why she would have gone missing. And by being part of that, obviously the bus cct came in and we led to the identification of of the subject i had my pressure team so um deployed my team down to go and conduct the arrest and tell us about your role how does that sort of thing go down what do you do do you knock on the door what happens um a lot of planning actually does go into something like that because with Sarah at that point still you know potentially alive and the only person who knows her whereabouts you know is him you only have one opportunity to get that right if he wasn't at home or if we'd sort of tried and failed at an attempt that could have put her in a severe amount of danger so a lot of planning and research

does have to go in to make sure that you get that right and get it right first time and what happened when you did make that approach um he uh we knocked on the door um effectively i confirmed he was inside we were happy he was inside so knocked on the door and he answered it um the moment he opened the door, I identified myself and he just went grey, all the colour just sort of fell out of him. And for you in this situation, how did you know or did you know that you had the right person? Where are you at that point when you're making those initial approaches and doing that planning? At that point, I was fairly satisfied that certainly, you know, there were a lot of indications that he was involved.

The moment he went grey, I think that really just confirmed to me that he absolutely was, you know, was directly involved. And in that situation, do you ask questions? What do you say? What can you say about the exchange? Yeah, so urgent interviews really are actually, you know, incredibly rare. Very few are ever done. I personally don't know anybody who's done one. I hadn't done one previously until that day.

There's a lot of strict rules around what you can and cannot do. Actually, you know, you can say the wrong thing and it could become inadmissible because if you breach those rules, that's it. It's done. So there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot at stake when you do them. And I mean, I actually still learning, you know, as a citizen, never mind a journalist, as how the police work and how it works with catching people and trying to bring justice, but also policing the police as well. I've learned a lot about that, certainly in the last few years, especially in this job at Woman's Hour. What is an urgent interview?

So an urgent interview is when certain criteria apply. Traditionally, it's around immediate risk to life. There are other criteria around property and severe damage and the likes. But effectively, if there's an immediate risk to life, then the person who's being interviewed isn't entitled to the traditional rights that one would normally get when they're arrested. So they're not entitled to legal advice. That interview will be conducted without it. So obviously, because of those rights being taken away, and they're important, very important rights, but to have them taken away means that there are very

strict rules around what you can and cannot do during such an interview. When did you realise he was a police officer in the Met where you worked? A couple of minutes before we knocked on the door. Really? Yes, yeah. So initially I tasked my team with a series of research to make sure we could actually locate him. DCI Goodwin was conducting her investigative research as well separately. I'd arrived in deal to brief my team around what we were going to be doing and how we were going to go about it and as I pulled up no sooner as I literally turned off the engine of my car did DCI Goodwin ring me and break the news to me. What was that like? Awful.

The sort of pit on my stomach just sort of fell out. I mean, it was immediately and abundantly clear how much this was going to change policing and what a huge moment in history it actually was going to be. Something that was, I mean, sadly, you know, murder is something that's all too common in our society. But to have such an event like this, you could see the difference in what it was going to mean for the UK. It must have been very destabilising in a way,

just to have that ahead of such an important thing to get right as well. Yeah, absolutely. And certainly, you know, with that, it wasn't lost on at court, I do think there would be sections of society that would have viewed me as a corrupt officer that was just out to try and help one of their own and couldn't have been further from the truth. And so that possibility of just making an honest and genuine mistake was a huge amount of pressure as well. So stakes were very high? Yeah, across the board.

I mean, you know, that was the, you know, probably the only, and turned out it was, the only opportunity he ever spoke. And that, you know, you've got that one opportunity to try and get to that information, to try and find Sarah. And, you know, you've got to do everything you can to get that right.

And it's a lot at stake there. Her life is at stake there. But of course it wasn't to be in terms of any ability to save Sarah. No, sadly not. How have you processed that information since as someone working in the police? And there are many who are trying to do the right thing far from the Met, throughout the country.

But in your situation, being in the Met and knowing that this had happened, what is that like for you? It's challenging, really challenging. I mean, you know, I put a lot of my identity into being a detective. You know, I have a lot of pride in what I've achieved and the work that I've done. I've always tried to do the very best I could do.

And to know that that's actively undermined by a section of policing is awful. But, you know, I mean, it's a fraction of what, unfortunately, Sarah's family ever had to go through as a result. But, you know, it pales into insignificance, really. Being in the Met, I believe, for 17 years yourself, is that right? I was, yes, yeah. And now you're saying was, past tense, no longer in the Met?

No, I left last year, yeah. What was the reason for that? A culmination of things. Certainly with a lot of the changes that have taken place over you know the last decade or so have essentially meant I was working 70 plus hours a week and also worrying about paying my mortgage and there's no scope for me to get a second job to try and cover that gap and the funding has not been where it should be and it left me with a very difficult situation to sort of stop a job that I love doing to do what's best for my family. Yes and I suppose then in that respect and talking

about how much your identity was bound up with it now as we discuss the Met Police and we discuss changes and and how it is I recognize you are outside of the force, but do you have a view on if things have got better within the last three years along the lines we're talking or if you think there are some things that we should know about that should improve, especially when it comes to the safety of women and having public trust in the police? I don't think it would be right or appropriate to talk about whether or not the changes are working, because not being physically present every day is very hard.

I don't think that's fair. As far as changes, you know, I think that investment in leadership is so incredibly important. And I think that a lot of these sort of the stories that you hear essentially come from a lack of empowerment of leaders. They're not being trained on how to confront situations head on. And sadly, you do therefore get some leaders that will take that easy route. And that's why you end up with these scenarios taking place. Not this scenario, obviously, but just sort of other issues that arise.

And I think that that training, and then not only that training then, but the expectations on the leaders to hold them to account once they are empowered to deal with it, I think are incredibly important things we should be talking about. Not easy for you to go back over that, Nick. I appreciate your time this morning and your candour. Thank you very much for coming on the programme.

It's such a rare insight into you being that person to go to Wayne Cousins' house and be in that urgent interview scenario, which, as you say, is a very rare scenario indeed. Nick Harvey there listening. Shabnam Chowdhury, a former detective superintendent for the Metropolitan Police. I'll just give you an opportunity to react to what you just heard, first of all, Shabnam. Good morning.

Good morning. Well, first of all, I'm just so disappointed that Nick has left policing, given his 17 years experience, and it's that kind of experience that is such a huge loss to policing because of the level of police officers that are coming in that are just inadequate, not appropriately trained.

Listening to what he's saying, I'm really finding it hard not to get really emotional about it because every word he has said I hang on to because it's the life of a woman and he talks about urgent interviews and the fact that that was one opportunity. I know I've been in those positions in my service so over those 30 years and it's so crucial that you have to be seen to be doing the right thing the right way and unfortunately that monster did not impart with that information and just to add to that that when you do get that information in these kind of situations under the PACE codes as soon as you've had that information the interview must stop no further questions asked

because it's there about saving life or limb and protecting and preventing risk of harm to others. So very heartbreaking listening to what Nick has to say and I commend him and his team for bringing that monster, the murderer of Sarah Everard to justice. Coming to the review last week where there were recommendations made about the changes that need to be made now to the Metropolitan Police. And it found overall, people may have seen the headline, even if they didn't dig more into it, that Wayne Cousins should never have been a police officer. Opportunities were missed to stop him. I've got the recommendations in front of me of what should change and what was found. What do you say about what's most pressing right now to have change?

Well, I think the vetting is absolutely crucial. They've really got to get that right. They've got to recruit people that don't have red flags already on their application forms. So whether there's intelligence around domestic abuse or sexual violence or pornography, you know, that kind of thing. And also, I think the training of police officers, Nick touched on the leadership failing to challenge and not having adequate training. This isn't just about adequate training for leadership. This is about being a leader and demonstrating leadership and ensuring that when victims and complainants come to you,

actually you're doing the right thing. When someone is telling you that someone is displaying red flags, remember what happened with David Carrick, reported again and again and again and just brushed under the carpet and it eventually took the Hertfordshire Constabulary to initiate that investigation and then open up that can of worms that had been operating within policing for decades in the same way that Wayne Cousins has so vetting is definitely crucial I read Angelioni's review and obviously not going through the whole thing, but it does talk about vetting and the old style of policing that we actually were subjected to, which meant that visiting police officers at their home address, looking and getting a feel for their surroundings, their neighbourhood, where they're living, are they living with people that are criminals or associated with criminals. That includes family. It doesn't mean to say that you get tied with the same brush, but it may mean that you might have to relocate and consider where you're going

to be living because that also in itself would be a red flag for policing and open to corruption. So there's a huge amount to unpack with the review. But what I say is this. The Met Police, for example, are bringing to court around three police officers a week. And that's fantastic. It took the murder of Sarah Everard for the Met Police to wake up

and actually realise the officers that hide in plain sight and the real challenges and difficulties that they've got in policing. Thousands and thousands of very, very good police officers are working within policing. But the problem they have is that whilst they're being good, they don't realise the damage that is being done

when they don't call out or challenge inappropriate behaviour or when they do challenge it, they're not being supported by managers. That training needs to be targeted. That training, and then, as you say, along the lines of the review from last week, the vetting that needs to be there, alongside some other key points. Thank you very much for your insights there, and also your response. Shabnam Chowdhury, a former Detective Superintendent for the Metropolitan Police.

We approached the government this morning. We have a statement here from the Home Office, specifically to try and understand about the review last week and what will potentially change in light of it. A government spokesperson said, the murder of Sarah Everard shocked our country to its core. We're determined to ensure women and girls feel safe on our streets. Progress has been and continues to be made

to strengthen the way officers are vetted, scrutinised, managed and disciplined. Laws are being introduced to ensure those charged with serious offences are automatically suspended from service. We're committed to tackling violence against women and improving the police response to how these vile crimes are dealt with.

The Anglione Inquiry, that's the name of the inquiry last week, has looked into issues around police culture and the government will continue to work with police partners to ensure that proper standards are upheld at all times. Additionally, from the Home Secretary, James Cleverley, we have, we will continue to do everything in our power to protect women and girls. I'm grateful to Lady Eilish for her meticulous investigation, Lady Eilish Anglione. Her insights will be invaluable as we move forward in supporting our police to build forces of the highest standards of integrity and regain the trust

of the British public. If you have anything to say on that, 84844 is the number you need. But two of my next guests will definitely have something to say. They have a lot to say generally and women's safety and the politics of the police high up on those agendas. And last week, just to tell you, they have a new place to say it beyond the House of Commons and House of Lords, their usual public chambers. And of course, their surgeries are certainly for the Labour MP, Jess Phillips, who is my next guest, as is the Conservative peer and the former Scottish Party leader, Ruth Davidson, who with Sky News's political editor, Beth Rigby, have just launched a new political podcast called Electoral Dysfunction. I'm sure it won't have escaped their attention or yours that political podcasts are dominated by male hosts at the moment. The rest is politics with Rory Stewart, Alistair Campbell, political currency with Ed Balls and George Osborne or politics at Jack and Sam's.

I could go on, but a warm welcome to you both. Ruth Davidson if I may start with you just because of what we heard it's a very very searing insight there from a former Metropolitan Police officer who had that particular task and role with catching Wayne Cousins. He's left the Metropolitan Police that individual because of cuts to funding and has concerns about training. What do you make of what he had to say on that, first of all? Well, and also from what he said there about his own circumstance and for somebody that spent 17, 18 years in the force has risen up to a detective inspector saying that they're struggling to make their mortgage. I mean, that should make us all think. I mean, I really feel for both Nick and Shabnam there. You know, I don't think anybody hates a bent police officer more than a good one. And this case has rocked everybody's world because, I mean, I would have got into a car with somebody flashing a warrant card at me.

I don't know a single woman that wouldn't have got into a car with a police officer flashing a warrant card at them. And the idea that people that keep us safe could perpetrate this is what's shaken us to our core. But I mean, I think the Home Office has got a lot to think about. I'm surprised that their response to the Eilish Angelini report was as muted as it was, that they would take it under advisement, that they've got work to do, etc, etc. i i know alice angelini of old she was the first female solicitor general in scotland then the first female lord advocate she knows her way around a press conference this was part one of a three-part report if she thinks that she's getting stalled or stonewalled um it's not just a a column in the guardian like she wrote

last week of a part one i mean she will absolutely go for the government if she thinks when you say when you say surprised i will bring in just in just a moment, who's absolutely chomping at the bit to get in on this. But why? Why is the Home Office not having a response to this, specifically these individual recommendations? What's your read as someone who knows some of the individuals and this is your party, the party of government? Yeah, I don't know. I have no idea, particularly not since most of the recommendations in this part of the port relate to policing. So it's not actually the government that needs to make the changes. It's the police. You know, they can say to police forces, make up a register of all police, serving police personnel who've had

an indecent exposure allegation made against them, which is one of the recommendations. But it's not the government that has to do that, it's the police forces that have to do it. And some of changing the vetting procedures that the police forces do, that's the police forces that will have to physically change them. One of the other things that she said... Is this government just not... All police forces should ensure they have a specialist policy on investigating all sexual events, including indecent exposure. And they should have it by September, October at the very latest. Again, it's not the government that has to do that. That's the police forces that would have to write it. So I have no idea why the response was...

Is this government done? I mean, is this what this shows? This is what you were talking about in your podcast. I was listening to it. The idea that this parliament is just done. I mean, final word from you before I go to Jess on this. I mean, you know, I've never served in the House of Commons, so I'm not used to its ways. But certainly, there's not much coming out of the Commons that's coming to the Lords. It does feel like it's a Parliament that's running at half power. Jess Phillips, thank you so much for that, Ruth. It's good to get the insights. People just don't always know how it works. I know you're interested to try and lift the veil

on that. Jess, for people who know your work, you read out the names of all women killed by men in the last year. And it actually happened very recently. Last week in the House of Commons, you did it in the run up and you always do it in the run up to International Women's Day. You said in your speech, you were sick of hearing from politicians saying lessons will be learned. What do you want to say after hearing from Nick this morning and what Ruth was seeing as potentially confusing why the government's not responding necessarily to this in the right way?

Yeah, the government, I mean, the first thing that they haven't done is made the Angelini review into a statutory inquiry. If it had been a statutory inquiry, she'd be able to force the police to do it. So at the moment, their Home Office is satisfied with just asking the police nicely to do something that they have never done before. I think, look, the honest answer, Emma,

is they don't care about it as much as they care about other things. It's not one of their political priorities. They're sort of bothered that they have to come and talk about it on days when reviews come out or anniversaries or International Women's Day. But this is not even, you know, the idea that this is the top of the in or out tray of the Home Secretary is just for the birds.

I felt like when he came to the Chamber last week to talk about this review, I mean, he will have had it for a couple of weeks James Cleverley James Cleverley, sorry, the Home Secretary he will have had this review for a couple of weeks whilst it was only published on that day it's actually the Home Office who had to publish it so you know, it was literally in a nice bound thing

there's no way that he hadn't had that review for a couple of weeks and I genuinely, from the response that he gave in the chamber I wasn't even sure he'd even read it. That's how it feels. Well, I mean, he's not here to respond. We have a statement and we can't know that, but that's your take.

Yeah, that's my take as somebody who knows inside and out this issue. And then James Cleverley asked us to just hope that... He kept saying, I will do everything I can, as he said in the statement that you read out, I will do everything that I can to make sure that police forces do this. But without telling us what that was, what is everything he can, as if he's as if James Cleverley is going to change the entire culture of policing across, you know, tens of police forces across the country, when to be honest, one of the things that we know about james cleverly is that he got

in trouble for you know basically making a sort of banter joke about women like well that was that was he says to do with his wife and he's he's clarified that and talked about that in a way i mean you're bringing that up you know again he's not here to to respond but if you talked about this government and i've done several interviews on this program and was interested to hear what ruth had to say about this particular response by the home office i've done several interviews on this programme and was interested to hear what Ruth had to say about this particular response by the Home Office. I've done several interviews now on the programme since Sarah Everard's killing with senior police officers talking about how working with government, they are working on this violence against women and girls action plan. I remember there was something launched at the end of last year, working across forces to try and this is, you know, pre this review, to try and change things. Do you have confidence in the police to change this? I don't have confidence

in all police forces doing the same level that needs to be done. I don't have confidence that every police force in the country, whether they write it in their annual review or not, and say, enough is enough, this is is our priority and the government made it thanks to campaigning by people like me they made it a serious crime yes for the first time on a level with terrorism now if you can find me emma a police force in the country that spends the same amount of money has the same number of officers has the same level of resource for violence against women and girls as it does to terrorism bearing in mind that violence against women and girls as it does to terrorism, bearing in mind that violence against women and girls is 20% of all call-outs. Terrorism is probably about 2%,

notwithstanding that it's very, very important. If you can find me a single force that is resourcing those on an equal footing, the Home Office doesn't resource them on an equal footing, nowhere near. I'm sick of being told that this is important. There needs to be a women's safety unit in every single police force in Africa. So would that be Labour policy?

Is that what you were working on before you resigned? I mean, I'm now no longer in charge of Labour policy, but that is absolutely what I would be pushing from a Labour government. It's what Louise Casey suggested to the Met in her report. She clearly says that there needs to be a women's safety unit within the Metropolitan Police. Funnily enough, not a recommendation that the metropolitan police have taken on i think the metropolitan police have done huge amounts over uh the since louise casey's report to try and do some really innovative stuff however when police forces start to act defensive and are

losing good officers um because of structural, as we heard from your interview there, then I'm afraid to say it's just checkboxing and I'm sick of it. Well, there's a flavour of how the conversation might sound on electoral dysfunction, Ruth, in terms of perhaps, you know, strength of feeling. But also there's a sense of getting, I hope, and I hope we're getting it in this conversation, of what's going on behind the scenes and your experience, Ruth, Jess's experience. Is that why you want to do a podcast? Yeah, I mean, partly it's a complete sausage fest and there was space for women to have their say and for smart, funny women who've been in the room when decisions have been made to explain not just how those decisions get made, but why they get made, who's involved and all of that. But also there's space for people who aren't necessarily in an election year, and this is an election year, that aren't necessarily going to be having a debate along party lines with an arbiter like a journalist like Beth Rigby,

who's a brilliant and quite rightly just been named political interviewer of the year by the Royal Television Society. We actually weirdly agree quite often. When we do disagree, we do it in an agreeable fashion. We also take the piss out of each other quite a lot and are probably harder on our own sides than we are on each other. So I found myself more than once saying, but, you know, to give Keir Starmer his due he must do blah and and you know does Jess ever give Rishi Sunak his due um I think I mean Jess

will when he earns them that sounds like a no Ruth well no I know what I find interesting about Jess is somebody who's very like like completely raised in the labour tribe like it was explaining to me that she uh her mum set up like a women's liberation nursery that she had to go to and watch and make green and common things when she was like 18 months old like was absolutely raised in the tribe um and and can be tribal and all politics can be tribal she sees um i think healthily tories as the opposition and not the enemy. And I think there's too much talking about the enemy in politics. And Jess doesn't see people like that.

She will work with, I believe she'll work with anyone to get stuff done because she would prefer to deliver than to stand on a soapbox preaching purity. And there's not, you know, we've got we've gone too far down the purity road, I think, in politics. Jess, just to come to you around the trend for this. I mean, as Ruth called it there, a sausage fest. So you've got an all-female lineup with the title as well that I'm sure will get people's attention, electoral dysfunction. How do you feel about the trend for sitting politicians to have programmes, podcasts, to present programmes, for instance, on GB News? Look, I think that it's fine as long as there is balance. I think that, you know, politicians going on and making sure that there is balance

and there is challenge. Now, obviously, I actually think in our case, the person in the hardest situation here is actually Beth because me and Ruth end up being incredibly opinionated. And actually, as a political journalist, as a political editor, she may very well, I mean, you know, contrary to popular belief, journalists do have opinions that they keep themselves. But she will have to be the sort of, you know,

have to referee between that without actually expressing what she feels about something. I don't think that on GB News, I think that when you have people, when you have, I said when I agreed to do this, if we're going to have Labour politicians on, I should have nothing to do with interviewing them because I might,

actually Ruth is right, I'd probably be harder on them and know the difficult questions to ask. But it's not for that. And I think it's weird when you have someone like Esther McVeigh interviewing the Prime Minister or the Chancellor or whoever it was on GB News. Yeah, that was just to remind people

that it was found to have been a breach of Ofcom. Oh, was that actually a breach? When the married Conservative MPs, Esther McVeigh and Philip Davies, this time last year actually, interviewing Jeremy Hunt over the budget, it was found they failed to represent a wide enough range of views. And I think that's something that should be totally held to. Now, this isn't...

Isn't it a slippery slope with our sitting politicians also being sort of media personalities, having their own podcast? You know, some people don't feel that comfortable with it. Maybe they think, how do you have the time? Do your constituents, for instance, like it? Because you're an MP as opposed to sitting in the the upper chamber like Ruth yeah yeah yes I mean my constituents have no nobody's complained to me about it yet but it's only been a week but don't worry that they'll let you know that they certainly will let me know whether they like it or not you don't need to worry about them hiding their

feelings on anything um but it it's an hour a week of my time. And look, I mean, if people wish to complain about that, then they have absolutely every right. People are more than capable of making their views heard. I think that you're right that there is a slippery slope when you're talking about news. What we are trying to do is open politics up to more people. I am an enthusiast about politics and I hate the fact that people

feel like they can't take part in it, that it's not for them. And if actually having people who sound a bit like them, talk like them, talk about the things that they care about, all power to the idea that our democracy really matters. And I've very rarely known it be as at much risk as it feels like it is at the moment. That's how it feels. Ruth, you also have a radio show. You have Times Radio, I believe. That's still the case. Correct me if I'm wrong. But do you also feel there's an importance having women,

like a female line-up like this? Do you think that plays into anything? Yeah, and also, I mean, the idea that, I don't know if you could quite hear the twang in her accent, but it turns out that Jess is from Birmingham. She never mentions it. No, no, she never does. Yeah she never does yeah it never does uh and i'm scottish and um you know it's just this idea as well that it's i got so frustrated in that like by-election where everybody went mad

for you les i was just like you know there's 90 of the country don't live in london like we don't live in london we don't care and it just it dominated the airways for days and then weeks and then is it going to change like party policy and how are we going to campaign and it's like it's a local surcharge for like traffic that doesn't affect 65 million people in this country can we all just calm down but because all the journalists live and work in London because all the programs are delivered from London because obviously London's the biggest city so it has lots and lots of um lots and lots of MPs. Don't forget Five Live in Salford I worked there for six years that did exist and does exist I'm going to remember my colleagues but carry on. Yeah yeah but you take my point though political the political journalists yes the political

journalists the the epicentre is London and I think sometimes people forget that you know there is a whole country out there and one of my biggest sort of chagrins in the last few years is that twice now we've had periods of two years when Stormont wasn't sitting and people only ever put it in the news when it got back up and running again and it's like there are bits of our democracy that are ceasing to function and nobody cares because we don't understand devolution and we don't understand like other bits of the country and it's a bit complicated so we'll just talk about ulez instead because london's just around the corner and we can get well i know i know who to book now if we need a ulez correspondent ruth davidson i'm gonna have to leave it there thank you very much you touched the nerve i can feel it like i think i think for

everything that em uh that jess says like there's clearly an appetite for this. I don't have any Apple products. I don't really follow it. But I got sent a nice screen grab saying that we got to the top of the Apple charts at the weekend. Oh, there's a good humble brag. We'll end on that. She says clearly, oh, no, no, I'm just so passionate that I have Android and Windows, everything. A lot of people like that. Come on, other operating systems available. Ruth Davidson, Jess Phillips, I'm going to have to leave it there. You can hear more on electoral dysfunction.

And all BBC local radio stations have political reporters. I am being reminded here. If you want to get more I can. But I did promise you some words to make you think in terms of how they've been put together. My next guest is the poet Holly McNish. She's famous for her unique and hugely relatable take on the way we think, parent, befriend, love, feed and bleed. I hope she'll forgive me the rhyme. Her book, Nobody Told Me, Poetry and Parenthood, was passed around from many a mother

to another because of that searing honesty a commitment she continues to keep in her books especially with the new book of poetry and prose lobster and other things i'm learning to love holly mcnish good morning good morning thanks for having me sorry i didn't intend that no it was a great right i like a full rhyme feed and bleed i mean it covers a lot of my topics, to be honest. Breastfeeding through to period. We're on. We're in. This new book then.

Lobster might not be what you think to call this book, having read a great deal of it and congratulations on it. But you say in the introduction, it's written out of both hate and love for the world and a bit about how we're taught to think about the world and what to perhaps despise. Tell and a bit about how we're taught to think about the world and what to perhaps despise tell us a bit more so it's that it's the second part of another book I did slug which is slugging other things I've been told to hate and this is things that I'm learning to love and it's just trying to rejig my brain like I've been thinking about all the things that I've spent years hating or disliking or being embarrassed about or ashamed of things that I really shouldn't be so

like my body like certain aspects of pleasure which are totally fine like even the sort of newborn phase my my body after breastfeeding breastfeeding is one of the big ones so there's so many things like that and then and then people I'm just constantly told to sort of hate other people for certain reasons hate your body hate people from other places all this sort of there's just so much hate and um and I guess it's trying to yeah just trying to sort of rejig and think okay what what do I actually love like do I actually love cushions for example I was told when I turned 30 I really needed to get into cushions or you know which is fine but that's you know for me it's like there's

certain things I'm told to love and there's other things I'm told to hate and I don't I don't think they work I don't think they work for me and some of those things like periods for example it's sort of ridiculous the amount of time and money I think I've wasted and a lot of us waste trying to kind of improve things that don't need improving so it's all about that it's just questioning just just everything in my life so a small topic really well it's a big it's a big everything in your life uh let's let's but you know there's some really serious things in there about what you've used your time for and how you've used your energy and i i'm we're gonna i'm hoping we can fit in two readings you're gonna be so kind to to do that for us and uh a estus alturas i think i'm saying

that right could you tell us just before you read it what what was the inspiration for that one yeah so this is a spanish phrase and it means from these heights and I learned it from this amazing poet who I love, Sandra Cisneros, from one of her poems and it's a way of describing in Spanish the process of getting older and I loved it because the idea is that as you get older it's as if you're climbing higher and you can see yourself and life and everything from a greater height so you can see things more and more clearly. Please go for it. So, Aestas Alturas. At 11, she discusses what she sweetly calls her childhood,

comments on how cute she was at three. When she is 20, she laments the self-consciousness of teenage years, wishes she could go back, tell her young self to believe. At 33, she flicks through photos from her 20s, how glorious she was, never thought it at the time. At 53, she looks admiringly at 40, did not realise how well she suited early middle age. By 70, she refers to her 50s as her younger days,

marvels at the strength in her dancing legs back then. At 80, she tells me her 70s were best, best years. And my mum always said her 50s were just absolutely brilliant. And I just constantly, I think we're always looking back. And I try instead of sort of writing to my younger self, like a lot of people do, I try and imagine myself, hopefully if I make it at like 90, just what I would tell myself at that age now, rather than what I would tell myself at an age that I can't go back to. Also that idea of not going back.

I mean, you're looking back in this, but actually projecting forward and how that could be the best is yet to come. I think that's really hard sometimes, especially once you've had children and your life becomes within that, to see above and see over. Yeah, I think it is really hard. And maybe it's because I've sort of been through what I thought were the sort of hardest years of of mothering of parenting people probably laugh now and people always like to say don't know

you think it's hard now you know wait I know just the whole time since I was pregnant I really hate that that kind of attitude but yeah my daughter's a teenager now and I do find it easier than the newborn phase and there's a whole section in this book about about being a new mum and just thinking back to that and the sleeplessness and all of that I found that amazing but so difficult so maybe I do feel like I'm getting more and more time now and maybe that's why or maybe it's just talking to my my grandma my my mum so much yeah obviously a big influence and um we're going to also hear from you about friendship. And you've chosen in the book to quote Charlotte's Web as you share this poem.

And you can tell us what it's called. But the quote, which is, you have been my friend, replied Charlotte. That in itself is a tremendous thing. It's just such a beautiful line. But what's this poem called? So this poem, I was going to give it a title and I called it just as a draft poem written one night when I was really missing some of my friends but actually never changed it I think it's fine I love it but I wrote it when my actually my daughter was having a sleepover and she had about six friends on our sort of small lounge floor and I just I think having a kid has made me realise things that really made me happy or things that I miss

and don't do as much as I used to. Because a lot of my friends live far away. So yeah, this is for anyone whose friends are kind of scattered the way mine are as well. My friends are scattered across cities now, across countries and countrysides, distant as aeroplanes, watched at night from a window, wondering where those miniature people strapped in might be going. Why did we scatter? Were those studies and lovers

and money that broke us apart, birds migrating confused by the bright lights of progress, were they worth it? I can't tell if that light is a star or a wingtip. Either way, I just wish you were closer. Either way, I just wish you would knock on my door while I'm sleeping, throw a stone at my window and wake me so we can sit on the pavement and talk about nothing and everything and throw balls at the curb and never have left. The comfort of friends I can talk about anything to. I miss you, like believing in fairies and gods, like lone sheep in frosts. I am freezing and bored of you not being around

i'm so sick of dates in the diary and i keep missing the timing of whatsapp chats catching up on hundreds of lines of typed conversation i'm now reading alone where have you gone i just want you here your face not emoji emotions palpably sobbing or laughing i want to stay up till midnight just to eat ice cream. Wonder which one of us will fall asleep first. Hear how it sounds when you yawn in the morning. I want us sat on the floor of my bedroom, excitedly, laying out all of the duvets and blankets and pillows and cushions

across this hard, uncertain surface of earth till we are sure we'll be cosy enough. Oh, I love that i i just sent that actually to a friend my best friend who's just left we both live in london neither is from there but she's just left london and i our life will now be dates in the diary oh it's devastating and it really is you know it's a it's a it's not the breaking of the relationship but it's a change yeah it is a change and rarely we move for friends. We move for so many other reasons. And weirdly, I've just moved house in order to be in a different village

where a friend lives so I can walk to a friend's house. And it's changed my life, I guess, in the opposite way. Really? And it's been really nice. It's also near where my daughter goes to school, so I don't have to get in the car and do the school run anymore, which has also changed my life. The complex Venn diagrams of all these things that must be satisfied by life moves if

you can manage them it's I suppose for for some people they still say oh I'm not into poetry or it's not for me or how have you found that changing do you think it we're getting any better with that and and people tapping into it more I think so. It seems to. I mean, in terms of sales, I guess, poetry sales, people have said they've gone up a lot. And because of social media, there are a lot of people coming in. Like I love going into different bookshops and I'm going around to loads of indie bookshops next week. And a lot of them have the sort of TikTok stall now, which sometimes kind of got laughed at in the poetry world a bit at first. But actually they say that when something becomes popular,

they have lots of teenagers sort of running in and selling out these poetry books that come up. So I think it is. I think it makes it more accessible.

And I just think there's so much, there's more anthologies coming out, which is probably my favourite way of getting into poetry. Yeah, I love it.

Just because I don't know all the poets and I love finding new poets and just sort of flicking through and dipping in. And yeah, with my books, I try to do a big introduction, sort of welcome people because it can be intimidating, can't it?

It can be scary. Well, it's beautiful to hear you read this morning. Thank you so much. No problem. Thanks for having me on. Holly McNish, the book is called Lobster and Other Things I'm Learning to Love. From poetry to music, and the two are very, very closely linked,

my next guest has been accused of showing a lot of cheek, literally, over the weekend at the Brits. Keira Mary Alice Thompson, professionally known as C-Mat, is an Irish singer-songwriter and musician who was up for Best International Artist for her wonderful country-tinged pop music and however ways you want to describe it. You're going to hear some of it now.

She didn't win. SZA did. But her low-cut dress showing the top half of her bottom definitely caught some people's attention during the show. I'm sure we'll get on to that. Both of Seamount's albums have topped the Irish Albums Chart. She was included also on the BBC Sound of 2024 longlist and today is going to

perform for us. We're going to have a conversation afterwards but we're going to get straight to the music which is a real treat. Good morning, the performance, the song rather, is called Rent. Take it away Seemap. Yes, yes, there we go Seemap. Thank you so much for that. What a performance, what a message. Please come over, have a conversation. Just to describe our studio there, you were on one side, I'm over here, and we're now together at the desk. What's that about? That is about having three different perspectives

and perceptions on the same series of events. And it's about re-evaluating a relationship over the course of time. So the kind of first third of that song is supposed to represent the immediate aftermath of a breakup where you're just like devastated and catatonic. The middle section is supposed to kind of represent maybe six months later where you're just going out on the town every night and being like I don't even really care anymore I don't care and then the next bit is a year later where you actually realize what was done and what was said to you um and the anger I, that comes later on with realising that you were mistreated and you didn't realise at the time.

Well, talking of going out on the town, you did go out this weekend to the Brits. I certainly did. How was that? And what a dress. Thank you. It was amazing. It was like the best night of my life. Was it actually? Because sometimes you can go to these things

and it's so different to how you think. The being at that award show was literally one of the best things that ever happened to me. And I still don't know why I was nominated. Like, I still don't know how any of that happened because it was a crazy category to be nominated in. Kylie Minogue was within the same category.

Kylie Minogue was so close to me that I could smell her almost for the entire evening. Heaven, you know. But, you know, it was really amazing. I really loved it. I had so much fun. And as you say, my bum was out for the entire evening. Your bum was out.

Can we just briefly touch on that? Brief being the word. You did turn around during, actually, my BBC colleague who was presenting Clara Amfo live on TV. It was cut quite low. It wasn't just the top. It was, you could see a significant part of the derriere. What was the thinking there?

So I, me and my stylist, me, Maxwell, and the designer, Sophie Lincoln, shout out to them because they're so amazing. I was actually very political about it and about why I did it and about why I wanted to do it. First of all, I thought it would be funny and fun, which is the most important thing ever. But I had a lot of rules for the dress

that were very specific. And one of them was that the amount of line of crack shown had to be corresponding to the amount, the average amount of cleavage line that you would show on the... On the front. Yeah, on the front yeah on the front essentially

because I didn't want anyone to accuse me of being I guess in poor taste or something I was like no it should be equal and this is accepted and this is common

but this bit isn't so it's equality of crete exactly right exactly but also I was trying to make a point about the fact that

I only think that my derriere caused a ruckus because it is larger right there's actually there's a lot of fashion moments where you know women wear bumsters the Alexander McQueen bumsters and there was a lot of you know um little bits of crack showing in the early 2000s and stuff but it didn't necessarily cause a stir but I think mine causes stir because it's big and because you know I'm um a size 14 as opposed to you know a size six which I suppose is commonly what we do see on television especially when it comes to you

know musicians and pop stars and stuff and I was right I couldn't have been more right you know people were in real life were loving it like everyone was in such good humor they're like oh my god can I get a picture with it? I was like, yes. But, you know, the internet is the internet. And I had a lot of people that were very angry about the fact that I would do such a thing. Like they were horrified and people were really angry and like really aggressive in like comments and, you know, finding me and sending me messages and stuff afterwards. Tell me that I had to go to the gym and, you know, like really, really, the backlash was crazy.

And I don't know if you know, but the Daily Mail online did an entire article about it and they pixelated my crack. You've made it. I mean, I'm nearly out of time, but you've made it. The music speaks for itself in so many ways. And I know you said on one of your videos on your social media, I just watched it this morning, you know, unfortunately I've got to go along and sort of be, I know the music's good, but I've got to go along to the Brits

and, you know, sort of be a part of it. But I think people also, you know, love to get to know people. That's why these conversations matter as well, to hear what your thinking was. And, you know, yes, you didn't win, but, you know, the music is what it's all about and you're putting yourself out there. And it's lovely to hear

some of the stories behind it. Thank you so much. Thank you. For coming to talk to us. And, you know, it's something that people will remember, I suppose, but also have the tunes now

in their mind. I just hope it brings more of an audience to my music because I work really hard. You do. Thank you so much. Thank you to all of you. I'm back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's. You do. Thank you so much. Thank you to all of you. I'm back with you tomorrow at 10.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm David Yelland. And I'm Simon Lewis. We're the hosts of Radio 4's When It Hits The Fan, the podcast which looks at how big names and big companies manage their PR. But what about your own personal PR?

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How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.