Woman's Hour - Sarah Ransome, Scars, Sequins

Episode Date: December 31, 2021

Today Andrea Catherwood talks to Sarah Ransome. She wanted to be at Ghislaine Maxwell trial when it started: not to testify but to see justice take its course. Like the four women who gave evidence, she says she's also a victim of Epstein's and Maxwell's. She says Ghislaine Maxwell, "starved and berated and swindled me while demanding I be raped daily".This week we've been talking to women about their scars. Today we hear from Emily on the self-harm scars she no longer needs to hide. We speak to Fiona Chesterton who discovered family secrets to do with illegitimacy. It started with a letter on her doorstep which revealed she was due a surprise inheritance. The tale is told in her new book Secrets Never To Be Told.And it's the time of year that we should be putting on our sequins but covid may well put a stop to that. Never mind: we're still discovering when and how they became such a big part of celebrating. Now though there's an environment aspect to consider and some brands are rejecting them because they're made of plastic. Dress historian, author and broadcaster Amber Butchart joins Andrea Catherwood to discuss all things sequin.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Andrea Catherwood and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. After yesterday's conviction of Ghislaine Maxwell in a New York court, I'll be speaking to British woman Sarah Ransom, who was abused by both Jeffrey Epstein and Maxwell. Her story is harrowing. It's the first time she's spoken to British media since the verdict, but I hope that it will help put the focus on the victims and survivors

and what they continue to go through. Now, it is New Year's Eve, so if you are planning on putting on something sparkly tonight, even if, like many of us, your plans involve staying home this year, sequins have been transforming outfits for generations. And clothes historian Amber Butchart will be here to talk about the power of garments that glitter. And today we'd like to hear from you on the subject of living with family secrets. Most families, if you dig around enough, are hiding something. Often in the past,

it was illegitimacy, which used to be steeped in shame and often led to untold sadness, mainly for women in the family who had to give up children or perhaps pretend a daughter was a younger sister or a cousin, basically living a lie. And it was all too common just a few generations ago. I wonder if this rings any bells with you. And is it all in the past? Hopefully it is. I'll be meeting Fiona Chesterton, who's written a book about her own voyage of family discovery and the generations of secrets she uncovered. And I'd really like to hear from you about your own stories. I can tell you that if we got started on some of the more colourful ones in my own

family, there wouldn't be room for the rest of the programme. You can text Woman's Hour on 84844. On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, you can email us through the website. Now, Ghislaine Maxwell remains in prison, yet to be sentenced. We got the verdict yesterday. She's guilty of recruiting and trafficking young girls to be sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein. She was found guilty on five of the six counts she faced, including the most serious charge, that of sex trafficking a minor. Her family have said she will appeal. One woman there in the New York court at the beginning of the trial was Sarah Ransom.

She wasn't one of the four victims who testified in this case. She'd previously settled a civil case with Maxwell and Epstein. She's a British woman who was repeatedly raped by Epstein and describes Maxwell as the ringleader and the enforcer. Well, this is the first time she's spoken to the British media since the verdict. And she joins me now. First of all, welcome, Sarah. I know that you've now had a day to absorb the news. What is your reaction to the verdict? How did it feel? It's finally sinking in, which is, it's an incredible feeling. And I was actually sitting in bed last night. And I actually, I found it very difficult to sleep last night because the verdict for me is so inspiring.

And I feel so inspired that justice was finally done after all these years, after all the, you know, the ups and downs, the journey, the litigation, we finally got there. And I think, you know, if anything, people can take home hope that justice, no one really, no one is above the law. No one. And the fact that Ghislaine has finally had her day and is going to spend the rest of her life in prison, you know, that is an example of no one is above the law. So I'm very inspired by the verdict. Sarah, you live in the UK, but you travelled to New York and you were in court. What was that experience like for you? So I actually went to court two different days.

The first day of the trial was pandemonium. And, you know, that for me was my biggest disappointment because, you know, I desperately had tried previously to contact the US government. So, you know, I knew that I could sit in a courtroom, you know, and we were basically just told, you know, we had to wait in a line with the rest of everybody else, which I mean, you know, if you were there, I mean, it just, you know, it wouldn't have been possible, really. And, you know, and then I landed up being in an overflow room with eight journalists for the entire day. So I was massively disappointed, but I eventually got my day in court. Not, you know, even though I wasn't one of the brave women testifying I managed to get into

the main courtroom and you know I was there for closing arguments and for me there is not enough money in the world that would ever be able to compensate for that moment when Ghislaine and I locked eyes with each other. And, you know, I said on a previous interview, you know, there was a time when Ghislaine forced me into Jeffrey's room to be raped. And afterwards, when I looked at her, she smiled. Now, Ghislaine, I mean, this is a sadistic, sick woman. You know, she took great pleasure in humiliating, hurting other human beings. So for me, when I finally had that moment when I locked eyes with her and she's the one sitting fighting for her life now because she's going to spend the rest of her life in prison behind bars I'm not I'm free you know um so yeah that that moment when I yeah, that moment when we looked at each other was just the most phenomenal moment.

And I'll never, ever, ever forget that. Did she recognise you immediately? Of course she recognised me. And so did her lawyers, Laura Menninger. Sarah, you grew up in Britain and South Africa at 22 you moved to New York a young woman in a in an exciting city hoping to study fashion how did you meet Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell well you see this is why it's really. So I was a 22 year old girl. I had just had a tremendously abusive relationship, emotionally, physically in Edinburgh. And, you know, I'd always wanted to go into the fashion industry. I mean, I, I mean, I've always been besotted by fashion, makeup, shoes,

you know, anything. And, you know, New York is a place of dreams. Where else would a young woman with aspirations and dreams move to? I mean, New York is a place where dreams happen. So, you know, I was, you know, fresh, 22 years old. I didn't know a single soul. I didn't know a single soul I didn't know a single soul I mean when I think back to it now I think oh my god 22 you're a baby yeah you know I was naive I was vulnerable and incidentally just so you know when I was my trip in New York recently, I actually went to 75th and you do not have a support system, structure, people you can rely on, you're toast.

So I was just in a nightclub, as any 22-year-old girl would do. You know, there's nothing wrong with that. I did nothing wrong. You know, and immediately I was befriended by by a girl my age you know and I was like I was so moved because I've never I've always found it very difficult to make friends and she immediately warmed to me started asking me about me you know you know you gosh you've got beautiful eyes you know um asking me why I was there she literally she was a trained interviewer she that was what her her job was and I mean I looking back I was almost like prey you know in in a water with a shark literally coming for the prey and

that's exactly how it was and you know and then it was you know um and then she you know I had a great time with her you know I'd made a new friend and then she sort of phones me and says you know do you want to come to the cinema you know I, I really liked you and, you know, I really, you know, your story is really, you know, I really want to help you. And, you know, there's this wonderful, kind, generous man who, you know, he's a philanthropist and he believes in young talent. And I believe in you and he genuinely wants to help you. And this was Jeffrey Epstein.

And this is Jeffrey Epstein. So I'm like, well, I mean, okay, great. So I rock up to the cinema. I mean, when you go to the cinema, you're not expecting that the next time you're going to see that person, they're going to be raping you on an on a deserted on a uh an island you know on a private island somewhere I mean that that doesn't go hand in hand so how did you end up on the island you were invited there by Jeffrey Epstein yes I went to the cinema. There were 10 other girls there. Again, beautiful, really engaging. And then we watched a movie, nothing untoward, nothing sexual, insinuated. And then I get a call from Natalia.

Natalia was the girl that you'd met in the club originally. Natalia was the girl who recruited me. And next thing I know, Natalia's phoning me saying, you know, Jeffrey, absolutely, you know, he really enjoyed meeting you. Do you want to come for this girls' weekend? What 22-year-old who has no friends, no girlfriends in a new city wouldn't want to go for a girls' weekend? I mean, I just, you you know and it was literally bam as soon as as soon as I got to the island um bearing in mind there was an incident on the plane ride over with Jeffrey and Natalia um you know where they another you know where they had full-blown sex in front of me. But because the other girls on the plane had, they didn't react.

It was like normal. I thought, well, okay, this is completely shocking to me, but maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe I'm, you know, and then, yeah. And then as soon as you got to the island, passports taken, phones taken, phones taken. The whole atmosphere completely changes as soon as I got to that island. I believe that you met Ghislaine Maxwell on that island.

That is correct, yes. What were your impressions of her? I was immediately told to fear her. Geoffrey made it very clear by saying to me, you do not cross Ghislaine. She is the woman of the house. And it was made very clear to me that she was the go-to lady. She ran everything. She controlled everything. Even the staff were terrified of her everyone was terrified of her so when I first met Ghislaine you know I mean I remember that day you know it was almost like royalty was coming and there was um there was a complete change of mood and I remember her getting off the helicopter

we had all lined up as if she was sort of some form of celebrity and I said hello to her. Now, I've never had someone look me up and down and completely dismiss me as if I don't even exist, as if I'm not even there. And from that day, from that first meeting, it was just constant from Ghislaine, absolutely constant. Constant in what way? The abuse, the name-calling, the bullying, the, you know, don't forget, I mean, Ghislaine starved me.

She participated in starving me on the island. Because she thought that you needed to lose weight. That's what she said to you, is it? Well, no, I was told to lose weight. That's it. I was 5'10". I'm 5'9". I was told to go down to 114 pounds, which is completely unrealistic and bearing in mind Ghislaine and Jeffrey had sent me to a

psychiatrist which was on Jeffrey and Ghislaine's paycheck and promptly wrongly diagnosed and put on medication so one of the the medication that I was put on was lithium. They knew I was put on lithium. And that is a drug that makes you put on weight. They knew this. So, you know, in Ghislaine, I remember very clearly taking my food away. You know, I had to sit there and watch other girls eat. Sarah, you've written in your book a very graphic account of what happened. The book's

called Silence No More. And one of the incidents that you talk about happened on that infamous island. And the reason I would like you to tell us it is because there will be people who are listening who are thinking, well, why didn't you just run away? But when you were on the beach there and you actually thought about just getting into the water and swimming to safety or swimming, I don't know where, what happened to you? Maxwell came to find you. So, first of all, it wasn't on the beach. That specific day, I had been raped.

I had been bullied by Ghislaine. Ghislaine had taken my food away. And I knew, I thought I was actually going to, I was that hungry. I thought I was actually going to die. And that is when I just, I just cracked. And I got in a quad bike and I actually drove to a remote part of the island because I knew that they would find me by the beach. And the island wasn't so much as a beach per se.

There was a jetty. But anyways, and they knew exactly where I was. It was at nighttime. I wanted to climb down the rocks. This was sort of just by a sort of a cliff. And I mean, I was that desperate. I was going to die trying to escape. And they brought me back. Ghislaine brought me back. How did she do that what did she say she became very kind and nurturing so you must understand when you in in any sex trafficking and this is what's really important and and I hope my book really educates um people on on the grooming process because um when you're in a situation

where you are constantly tortured, raped, bullied, any scrap of kindness, you're like a hungry dog. You latch onto it. And that is called the trauma bond. And that's what groomers do. So she very quickly, you know, apologize. I didn't mean it. Come back to the house. Everything will be okay. And that continues for a certain amount of time to build your trust up again, because you can't get out. I mean, everyone assumed I could just get on a plane and just go that was not how it happened you must understand we were threatened daily

that if we ever told anybody um went to the authorities went to our families that i and my family would be killed. We'd be taken out. And you've written that Ghislaine Maxwell had actually got details of your families, your contacts, phone numbers for them. Of course they did. That's the first thing that they did. And you were living at this point in a flat that was owned by Jeffrey Epstein.

Absolutely. So now I'm now in a situation where, you know, I'm, yes, he's paying for my accommodation escape? I tried to escape. I tried to escape twice. There was another occasion in New York where I tried to escape. I didn't answer Jeffrey when he demanded that I go to his New York mansion. I was just walking on the street. A car pulls up next to me. I'm forced in the car, driven back to his mansion and raped. He knew exactly where I was. And please do not assume I ever escaped Jeffrey. I escaped Jeffrey the day he died.

Now in my book, people must understand when I came forward in 2016, I went into two years of hiding. I didn't speak English for two years. I didn't have a bank account. I didn't have a phone. When I got sick, I didn't go to the doctor. I didn't have a cell phone. I didn't have a laptop. So please, you know, everyone says, why did you not escape? I have proof. I have physical evidence. I have an email that Jeffrey was trying to track me down in 2017. And the fact that he actually tracked me down when I came forward in 2016. So I've only now escaped that Jeffrey's dead and Ghislaine is behind bars. Sarah, Ghislaine Maxwell's defenders have said that she has been made a scapegoat in fact her brother on on Radio 4 Ian this morning said that he thinks that she stood trial because Epstein couldn't do you have any sympathy for that view?

Absolutely not absolutely not and I think it's despicable um absolutely despicable um what her brother's saying how much of an influence was it that gillane maxwell was a woman in being able to draw you into the relationship and to make you stay well i mean that is that is the main, that is the fundamental of how the fundamental, you know, structure of how the sex trafficking ring lasted for so many years. This is a sex trafficking ring that has raped hundreds, if not thousands of children and young women. This was an organization, sex trafficking pyramid that was run by women. They would not, this sex trafficking pyramid wouldn't exist without Ghislaine. She was the enforcer, you know, and I really think Ghislaine's brother should sit in a room full of Ghislaine's survivors, you know, because then he might actually have a different opinion of what his sister actually has done because she has destroyed hundreds of lives. The devastating impact that his sister has had is disgusting. I want to talk to you about women being believed and victim shaming. And if you don't mind, I'd like to read some of your own words to you from

the beginning of your book, because I think they're very powerful. You wrote that when a survivor discloses her abuse, some forget the manipulation and look instead at her skirt length or how much cleavage did she bear, how red her lipstick was. You've been very open about the fact that you weren't perfect, I mean, who is, and that people who haven't led spotless lives should be listened to. Do you think that this verdict does widen the net of who can be believed? Absolutely.

And you know what? The defence in the Maxwell trial used the same old victim shaming. And it's the same old victim shaming I've been called it. And, you know, I'm so sick to death of it because no one on the planet can tell me that what happened to me, me being raped was my fault. No one deserves to be raped. I don't care what you've done. And that for me is why I wrote my book, because I haven't been perfect. And I wanted to explain to people, instead of judging me, listen, listen to my story. I've made decisions, certain decisions out of survival. So you know what? If you know, I'm not perfect.

I'm not. But I still deserve to be listened to. And I hope people can can find some solitude that the trauma did not end there but I wonder did you ever think that this day would come that actually there would be a verdict especially considering the wealth and the power of both Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein? I mean, you misunderstand that this is a woman that has, you know, Jeffrey and Ghislaine, they were friends with presidents, princes. You know, there's a picture of them being blessed by the Pope. I mean, my God. I mean, they know people, the most powerful people in the world.

And, you know, my goodness, do they have a lot of things to share as well. You know, Jeffrey's dead, but Ghislaine isn't. So I am shocked. And that's why I feel so inspired by this verdict. Because people, you know, this is a new era. Things in society are finally changing. And for me, this verdict is groundbreaking and history-making. Sarah, you've been through so much trauma. How's your life now?

What's life like today? I'm excited about life. And, you know, that's part of the, you know, when I wrote the book, I'm a very different woman to when I first started writing the book to where I am now. And let me tell you, there's been a lot of tears and tantrums and heartache and some really low places, you know, but I'm excited about life. You know, I'm very passionate about educating youngsters and people in general about what the idea of consent is, what it actually means, because I think talking about rape is such a taboo subject. And it's a subject that actually you know if you think

now in this Christmas period how many women men as well children have actually been sexually assaulted and raped you know it's all very well we're in a pandemic but you know we're not talking about rape rape sort of always you know pushed underneath the carpet and this is something I'm really passionate about because I don't want anybody to go ever experience what I've experienced because it does it alters your soul forever. Sarah thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. Sarah Ransom, and her book is called Silenced No More. Now, all this week we've been talking to women about their scars. On Wednesday, we spoke to Jane,

who told her story about contracting and surviving a flesh-eating bug. Yesterday, we heard from Laura, a burn survivor. And today, it's Emily's turn. She introduces herself. The reporter is En survivor, and today it's Emily's turn. She introduces herself. The reporter is Enna Miller. My name's Emily, I'm 25 years old and I'm originally from Kenya and moved to London when I was 12 years old. My scar's on my right hand, quite close to my wrist it's a bit raised off my skin and to the touch it feels a bit hard, a bit lumpy in some areas, soft in areas and in terms of its colour it's a bit darker than my shade. It's got some pinks there like light browns and then it gets a bit darker. So yeah, there's my scar.

It's basically three scars in one. In my life, I've self-harmed three times on my arm, and it's all been on the same area. It's because I didn't want to get any more scars in different parts of my body. Actually, over time, it has changed shape and colour. The last time I self-harmed was a year and a bit ago. So before that, it looked different. And then before the second time I self-harmed, it looked different as well. So it keeps changing?

Yeah. What I noticed was, when you talk about it, and when we're looking down at your wrist you smile that's really weird I didn't realize yes it represents a lot of pain but it also represents a lot of like overcoming because I think why I can smile now is because I'm not in the place I used to be I feel kind of like I'm taking care of it, if it makes sense. So when you look at your scar now, does it bring back memories? I think each day is different, to be honest.

So today was the day I was really struggling with my mental health. I may not look at it in the same way. I may not really even look at it. But to be honest, in normal day-to-day life because I've had this scar since I was about 15 so it's kind of been nearly 10 years I think I've kind of gotten used to seeing it on my arm to the point where I don't really notice it until someone like asks a question or brings it up. The other women I'm speaking to the scars happened to them and you're the only one I'm speaking to where the scar was inflicted by yourself? Yeah it is a bit hard to think about oh gosh I did this to myself maybe I

think like I'm in therapy at the moment and self-harm is something that we talk about. It was inflicted, but I don't see it as, like, I harmed myself. I see it as I had a lot of pain inside and I didn't know how to deal with it. And I think for me, especially coming from a background with, like, physical punishment, the reason why I self-harmed the first time is because I did something really bad and then my parents didn't punish me and I thought. Yeah you said you'd stolen something?

I shoplifted here and there and of course the day I steal the most amount of things is the day I get caught and so my mum takes a call and she just breaks down crying. And of course, I've been crying for like hours beforehand. So on my way home, I'm thinking I'm definitely going to get sent back to Kenya. I'm definitely going to get sent back to Kenya because I had those stories of kids, you know, who moved here and then they started acting up and their parents are like, no, you're going to go back home. And also on top of that thinking, I'm going to get the beating of my life. And then I get home. Just nothing in terms of like them shouting at me or them saying, how dare you do this and things like that. And I felt so guilty. And for me, it was the first time that I'd kind of screwed up in that way

and not going punished for it. And I thought, I need to get punished for it because that's what happens. You know, in my head, doing something bad and getting beaten for it was like one plus one equals two. It was just like, that is what happens. Self-harm was like not the next best thing, but it was that like, OK, if I do this, then it would count as a punishment. And your family have never spoken about it? Yeah, I mean, I don't think they ever saw it like that, though.

I think they just saw me with a plaster and they just thought, OK. Or maybe not. I mean, I don't know what they thought, but it just was never brought up in that honest way. I don't really remember having it exposed. And I think, I feel like when I, maybe the first time I did have it exposed and I think I feel like when I maybe the first time I did have it exposed it more felt like an elephant in a room kind of situation where everyone has noticed that there is something on my arm that was not there before but no one brings it up. I don't know why. There's a part of me that feels like I think they know where it is. Maybe not using my words exactly, but I think they know that this is something that was self-inflicted

because even just talking about mental health is not something that happens at home. If we can't talk about mental health in a way that doesn't feel awkward and uncomfortable how are we gonna even start talking about self-harm what's it done to your self-esteem the first time I self-harmed you know I was a teenager and already not feeling that great about myself and my appearance so this was essentially like one other thing and I remember being really angry at myself for doing it but I feel like now having my scar has definitely played a part into like my confidence

now as an individual and so how have you learned to love it therapy therapy honestly was and is like a lifesaver and I think she's also the first therapist that I really honestly discussed my scar I remember seeing someone at a wedding and this person had marks all from above her wrist all the way up her arms both arms she had this dress on and to be honest my brain was shocked because I thought wow and then I thought no but wow because you are saying yeah I self-harmed but I am not going to hide you've got to the point where you can show it to the world when I first got my scar it was the first time so it was at its smallest and I went to so much effort to hide it you know wearing like long sleeve you know skin tight tops you know in the summer and it's

boiling and you're sweating and you're so uncomfortable and but also you know you want to look fashionable you want to look cute and the reason why I hid it is I thought everyone's gonna look at it people think they're entitled to touch and the intrusive questions if I had to be honest then I'd essentially be telling every stranger that asks me about my mental health and self-harm I just wouldn't want to do that I think especially with this stigma of self-harm you tend to get this really shocked look and you'd say they're like disgust or it's someone feeling incredible pity for you. Both reactions I completely hate. So for me, it's just easier to say, yeah, I got burnt.

And then they're like, oh, no, that's so sad. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then let's just move on. You work in an environment where it's very fashion conscious. Yeah. And then you've got this lovely green dress on and the sleeves stop at the elbow. Your scar is there for people to see. So what was the shift from hiding yourself

to now where it is what it is? I think it kind of coincided with me just getting tired of being so hard on myself and coming across you know like positive content online like you're worthy and you're loved and your mental health matters and I was like what really my needs for me mattered more than what other people might say so I feel like as I started becoming more honest knocking down that stigma from within then it allowed me to get to that point where I was like actually I'm gonna show my scar it's gonna be out there and if people look at it and if people say something that's okay and also I'm

not sweating as much as I used to before I remember the time I kind of went to like a family-ish social thing without my scar covered and I thought, oh my God, it's going to be like the talk of the town. No one said anything. Everyone is essentially walking around worrying about themselves and how they look to others. So things that might look like a really big deal to me, they may not even bat an eye.

That was Emily's story. And sources of information and support are available on our website. You're listening to Women's Hour on BBC Radio 4. As you might expect, we've got a lot of tweets coming in from you about the interview with Sarah Ransom. Thanks to Sarah, says one, an articulate, brave and lovely woman. She's going to do so much

good for women and for public understanding. And Tara tweets, it's heartbreaking to hear Sarah having to defend herself for what happened to her. 22-year-olds get into risky situations every day, but thankfully few will happen to come across such evil people. It wasn't your fault, Sarah. We've had a lot more on that as well.

But thank you very much indeed for your contributions to that. Now, dig around in most families and you will find secrets from previous generations. If it's far enough back, it can be interesting, intriguing. If it's a little closer to home, the discovery of those secrets can feel a lot more traumatic. Sometimes those revelations can have the power to liberate, heal, and indeed to help you to understand the family dynamics in a new way. Well, when journalist Fiona Chesterton started to investigate her own family, she found a hidden past.

In her new book, Secrets Never to be Told, she uncovers how the lives of the women in her family were impacted by illegitimacy and blighted in places by the need in previous generations to keep that illegitimacy hidden. Well, Fiona joins me now. Fiona, welcome. The beginning of your novel sounds a little bit like a Victorian novel in a way, the beginning of your story rather, because it started off in 2011 when you got a letter through the Post claiming that you were the benefactor of a mystery windfall inheritance from Canada. Yes, in some ways it's a story that's stranger than fiction. It's very much uh happened to me um i've got the letter with me now

and it was a letter that at first seemed so surprising telling me about somebody i'd never heard of who apparently had left me a share of an estate worth 358 000 dollars um i the natural reaction was to think this can't be true yeah if it had come if it had come via email you'd have thought it was a nigerian prince who desperately needed absolutely um but even even with the you know the official heading and everything else uh it was hard to believe and i i i did contact the woman who sent the letter from Vancouver. And over the next few months, I found out the outline of the story that had led to this letter and led to my finding out about this Canadian wing of the family I had no idea existed. And I started to get so intrigued with the story, I thought I've really got to find out more about this and what I didn't realize at the start when I was finding out about this man and realized the key person was his

mother who had been born and brought up in Cambridge where I happen to live but who had gone on an emigration program on her own to British Columbia before the First World War. First, I just wanted to know more about her, sort of curiosity. And then I sort of realized it was more than that. It was because I had this fellow feeling. She was illegitimate and I was illegitimate too. And she was surrounded by family secrets and I was too. And so as I went further and further into the

investigation I realized it was also about my own story so this mystery inheritance it did change my life not because of the amount of money involved but because of the impact it's had on me and coming to terms with my own childhood and my mother in particular, and the life she had, which was a difficult life, as well as learning sometimes quite disturbing things around this young Victorian woman who ended up on the Canadian prairie. This Victorian woman, Jessie, she was born in 1877 and she ended up becoming, you've just mentioned it there, a kind of a daughter of the empire. She was illegitimate and she probably had a relatively difficult life in Cambridge. Do you think that's what led her to go elsewhere? It's impossible to know for sure. I mean, when you're doing any sort of historical research, you can explore records, but you can't really fill in all the bits of the jigsaw. You have to somehow do that yourself. Nevertheless, I think it was no coincidence that she emigrated within a few months of her adoptive mother, a woman called Harriet Rook, who was a widowed housekeeper, for whom Jessie sometimes worked as her adoptive daughter, but who obviously encouraged her into a life of domestic service in

genteel households in Cambridge. I think there must have been some connection with the death of that woman and her decision to go abroad. But you refer to Daughters of the Empire, and I was lucky enough to be able to find her actual emigration record in a file in London, in the Women's Library, which is a wonderful place at the top of the London School of Economics. And I saw the emigration reports from this organisation called the Girls Friendly Society, a very changed organisation now, but at the time, and we're talking about actually we're spooling on into Edwardian times, just before the First World War and the era of the suffragettes of course, I was quite shocked to find these very imperial thoughts

being expressed by the immigration manager in her annual reports about how she was encouraging thousands of women, young women, often servants, who were described as being part of a surplus of women a plethora was a word she used a plethora of women who would go on this imperial project and she the immigration manager called them daughters of the empire and once they were away in Canada Australia New Zealand I don't think they got much support. Certainly there's no evidence that Jessie did. She really had to fend for herself. In your book, you do explain her fairly difficult story with living out in Canada,

but also running through the book in tandem with Jessie's story is your own. She was an illegitimate child in the Victorian era. You also find out later that you were illeg illegitimate child in the Victorian era. You also found out later that you were illegitimate growing up in the 1960s. I wonder how much that revelation about your own life and that of your mother's makes you able to look back and view your childhood differently, understand a bit more about what was going on in your parents' life? Well, absolutely. I mean, in the book, I describe childhood memories and I obviously try and get back into the mindset I had

when I was a child and a teenager, where I sort of knew something wasn't quite right and I knew we had a very strange, sort of rather isolated existence. My mother lived like a voluntary life of self-isolation um and she she did the very best by me and my father also you know focused on me and I had the best of everything and I had a very good education etc but I knew something was wrong and I knew my mother had really poor mental health. And it was only years later when I was in my early 40s when I just happened to come across paperwork, which really showed me that what I thought was going on, what I thought were the relationships with my family,

it wasn't what I thought at all. And at the time, you know, my instinct was, again, to keep it secret. You know, I think this culture of secrecy that I try and describe in the book is something that was completely endemic within society until relatively recently. Don't talk about this, you know, it'll be damaging, it'll reflect badly on us, you know. It's so interesting, Piyun, I wanted to explore that, because this really is a story about these untold experiences of mothers of illegitimate children, and in a sense, all the shame that was attached to it, because families went to huge lengths to hide these secrets from the outside world, although often the extended family actually knew about it.

I know in your case, when you went and asked an older generation, they had known about it, but kept it a secret from you. And I know that that's also, you know, that's very common. I wonder, there was a lot of hypocrisy involved, wasn't there? Because there were a lot of illegitimate children around. And yet, who were they keeping the secret from? Was it the neighbours, their employers, society? There seemed to be a lot of hypocrisy that actually wrecked women's lives. I think it's all what you describe. It is a sort of absolutely endemic social hypocrisy built into the society and culture of that era and I'm sure my mother thought that if it was known that I was born out of wedlock that it would somehow blight my

chances in life, that she did it out of a sense of protection and that sounds um that sounds sort of odd today when we describe but i'm absolutely convinced there were cases where you you read about people losing jobs uh because of this um not being considered proper or not our sort you know if you were legitimate the shame as you talk about shame, absolutely shame. You know, the word bastard, bastard has been a term of abuse for many, many years, you know. So I do think that was a sort of endemic hypocrisy. I think the other reasons I wanted to explore my mother's case and Jesse's case was that this wasn't a case of teenage mothers. I suppose the archetypal story of around illegitimate children in the 1960s and 70s is about young girls described as, you know, rather figuratively as silly young girls who got themselves pregnant.

My mother was in her 30s when she had me. Jessie, who also had a legitimate child in Canada, we don't quite know why or how because there's no birth record, she was in her late 30s too when when she had or adopted this child um and uh she certainly got a hard time when it was realized that she was carrying around an illegitimate child and regarded with some disdain fiona has it completely disappeared now i mean do you we are living in totally different times i wonder what your children thought about the story. Yeah, we like to think that, oh, yes, it's all fine now. I'm not so sure. I think probably there are still, particularly in some religious communities, still some, you know, sort of disapproval of people who live, you know, that terrible phrase living in sin.

I don't think that's completely gone away. It's a great thing that younger generations in particular are much more open. But nevertheless, prejudice and shaming women, sadly, doesn't seem to have gone away. And I'll tell you one example, even this week, that struck me. I was reading the obituaries of the Radio 1 disc jockey, Janice Long, who was quite a pioneer. Of course, she was the first woman on Radio 1 with a regular show. And the obituary I read said that she had left Radio 1,

her particular show, in the 1980s because she'd had a child out of wedlock. And I thought, for goodness sake, you know, mid-1980s, we know about the 50s, we know about the 60s, we know about the 70s, now we're talking about the 80s. So I really don't think we should be too complacent and we should certainly know there are many many women and some men as well whose lives now are still blighted by that feeling of shame and guilt

and embarrassment and um hopefully i do hope that that my book can contribute to trying to put it all out there and say, let's, you know, let's talk about this openly and let's realise there was harm and let's try and own up to that. Fiona Chesterton, thank you very much indeed. And Fiona's book, Secrets Never to be Told is out now. Now, for a little New Year's Eve glitz, it can be provided by the mighty sequin. It's often associated with party outfits that we dig out of our wardrobes at this time of year. But where did the sequin come from and how has it become associated with party occasions? Well, dress historian, author and broadcaster Amber Butchart joins me now to discuss all things sparkle related. Amber, first of all, tell me, where did the sequin come from? Well, sewing precious metals onto clothing is found throughout history in cultures around the globe for various different reasons. Firstly, you know, as a status symbol, it could also in the past act as a kind of portable banking system as well.

You know, if you sew your coins onto your clothing, then you're keeping it safe. One of the earliest historical evidences of what we now call sequins is actually from the tomb of Tutankhamun. Some of the clothes, there were a huge number of clothes found in his tomb. And some of these included were garments that were embellished with gold discs that resembled sequins, which I think is fantastic. Moving forward a bit, we even see a sketch by Leonardo da Vinci for a sequin machine, which is just fantastic. Wow, a bit like his helicopter. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Now, there's no evidence like the helicopter that this was ever actually made, ever actually put into production.

But I think it gives a sense that this notion of, you know, creating this kind of sparkle on clothing was important enough for people to be thinking about. Certainly from the 16th century onwards, we get the forerunner to the sequin, which was known as the spangle, which is just such a, you know, wonderfully evocative word, I think. And that's exactly what it sounds like. It's small discs of metal, could be precious metal, or could be something like copper, that would then be sewn onto clothing. And I think it's also important, when we're thinking about sparkle, we need to think about the history of light as well

during candlelight you know this is a period obviously before electric lighting and the sparkle the glittering that would have been seen from these spangles would have just been magical really really beautiful tell me was it the preserve of very wealthy people or where was everyone able to sew a bit of a bit of sparkle onto their clothes? Sometimes it certainly was the preserve of very wealthy people. And we have materials like cloth of gold that were in fact regulated by sumptuary laws throughout the medieval era. This is literally cloth that was woven using gold or we have cloth of silver using these precious metals. Not only would this have been out of the reach of ordinary people, but it was regulated by law as well.

But by the time we get to see spangles being used in the kind of, you know, 17th century and onwards, they could be non-precious materials. So you didn't have to be the sort of richest of the rich to wear them. Now, what's interesting with those ideas of status, though, is that by the time we get into the 20th century, we see the rise of Hollywood, the rise of the film industry, and we start seeing this notion of sparkle taking on a sort of new status, a new meaning and becoming related to celebrity. When we have black and white film, texture becomes really, really important. So in the early days of cinema, things like, you know, something sparkling or lame fabrics, for example, or feathers or furs, this all adds great texture

to what we're seeing on the screen. And we actually find that the language of sparkle is written into the way we talk about stardom. It's literally Aaron Stardom, or Tinseltown, for example, how we would talk about Hollywood. So it becomes this real kind of marker of a new kind of luxury, a new kind of status in the 20th century. And we do all gravitate towards sequins, don't we, when it comes to things like, for example, New Year's Eve outfits, even if this year we're staying at home. I mean, it just does make us, it uplifts us, doesn't it? Totally, totally.

I mean, you know, all of these winter festivals, whether it's Christmas, whether it's New Year, so much of it is about trying to find light in the darkness and creating light in the darkness. And so sequins or any kind of sparkle really helps with that. It's also, you know, ideas of light are linked with divinity, which make it ideal for sort of religious festivals at this time of year as well. Gold embroidery was previously used for ecclesiastical robes.

So we have these kinds of associations as well. And of course, sequins are traditionally made of, or more recently have been made of plastic, but there are biodegradable options out there to be a bit more environmentally friendly. Yeah, there are a few different companies putting a lot of research into creating more sustainable options for sequins. I would certainly recommend avoiding buying new sequined clothing made of non-sustainable sequins. There are companies looking into biodegradable, compostable, sort of plant-based materials, going back to natural materials rather than plastic. Until we see a big rollout of those kinds of more sustainable sequins, I would recommend people shopping secondhand. You know, the 80s, for example, was very familiar with sparkly jumpers,

whether it was bugle beads or rhinestones or, you know, fake jewels or sequins. So, you know, look for second hand for these kinds of things. That's what I'd recommend. Will you be wearing sequins tonight, Amber? Yes, certainly. Why not? I'm probably not doing much tonight, to be honest, but I will be wearing sequins at home and lighting some candles to bring some light in the darkness, which I think we all need right now more than ever. Indeed we do. Amber Butchart, thank you very much indeed. Now, we've had a huge response, as you might imagine, to our question, really, to ask you about your own family secrets. I'm not going to name any names because the last thing I want to do on New Year's Eve is to create

a family argument, but I would like to read out just a couple. We have one here that says, My aunt died at 98. She had a baby in 1948 and was made to give her up for adoption by her family. She kept that secret to her grave.

I'm so sad for her. And I look at brides these days and I marvel at how times have changed. And another one here, my father was born in 1912 and grew up thinking that his mother was his sister. They found out later through a birth certificate. And we're getting a lot of these types of stories where an uncle realised that he wasn't his grandfather's son. Another woman writes to say that at 55, she was contacted by a woman announcing that she was my sister.

My mother was still alive and said that it was true and that she'd put the child up for adoption. When my mum died, a man wrote to me saying that he was my brother, born 18 months earlier than the other woman. A lot of stories like this that are coming in. Thank you so much and a very happy new year to you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.