Woman's Hour - Saskia Reeves, Childminders, Women in Camps

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

Childminders play a vital role in the early years of children’s lives, offering care, stability and a familiar face during those formative years. But their numbers are in sharp decline. Many are no longer able to offer places for three and four year olds, citing government funding pressures. Today, Ofsted have released new figures on how many childminders are leaving and joining the profession. Childminder Georgina Young joins Nuala McGovern to share her experience of the joys and challenges of childminding, and what the future might hold for the profession.Saskia Reeves is the theatre, film and TV actor known for her many roles including Catherine Standish in the hit Apple TV series Slow Horses. She’s now back at the National Theatre, in a new play, End – the last in a trilogy of plays by David Eldridge - Beginning and Middle – with Clive Owen, exploring love and relationships. Saskia joins Nuala to discuss. The Independent Commission on UK Counterterrorism has just published its report after three years. A long and detailed report, it estimates there are up to 70 UK-linked individuals, mostly women and children—most under 10 years old—believed to still be in camps or other detention centres in Iraq and Syria. Professor of Religion, Gender and Global Security, Katherine Brown, is one of the 14 commissioners. She explains why the women and children remaining in these camps is "unsustainable" and why an organised programme of return, rehabilitation, and integration is, they believe, the best long-term option for managing the risk to public safety. Frank Gardner, the BBC's Security Correspondent, joins them to discuss.Coroners’ advice and concerns on maternal deaths in England and Wales are being ignored despite them raising repeated issues, a new study has found. Dr Georgia Richards, the founder of the Preventable Deaths Tracker at Kings College London who is on the line from New Zealand, discusses the findings.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

Hello, this is Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed good morning and welcome to the programme. Well, new figures from Ofsted are out today showing a decrease in the number of childminders in England. We're going to speak about why that is in just a moment. Also today, approximately 15 to 20 women who were linked to the Islamic State Group and their 30 to 40 children are being held in camps across Iraq and Syria. A review by the Independent Commission on UK Counterterrorism says that Britain counter-terrorism strategy is no longer keeping the country safe

and calls for a coherent, humane and security-conscious repatriation strategy. It is an incredibly contentious issue, as you will probably know. We're going to discuss it with one of the commissioners, Professor Catherine Brown, and our security correspondent, Frank Gardner. And fans of slow horses, do you watch that TV hit? Well, you want to stay tuned because we have Saskia Reeves in studio. She's in a wonderful play called End at the Moment at the National Theatre. It deals with love, heartbreak, living with the terminal diagnosis and dancing.

Now, if you want to get in touch with us on any of the issues that we covered today, you can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, that number is 0300-100-444. Indeed, you might have some thoughts on our first issue, which is that of childminders. Ofsted has released new figures which show that the number of registered childminers, that is those professionals who offer home from home childcare for small groups of children of different ages, that it has fallen to 25,000 in England. Now, if we go back to 2009, there were

over 60,000. That's according to Coram Pacey, the Professional Association for Home-based Child Professionals. They represent, they say, almost 50% of registered child minors in England and Wales. childminders if you use one you know they can play a vital role in early years of some children's lives and at times a more affordable price for families compared to a private nursery but there is concern from some that they're no longer able to offer places for three to four year olds and they talk about government funding pressures where we're going to speak about it with child minor georgina young hi georgina hi georgina hi thank you so much for having me i'm honored to be here Well, we're delighted to have you.

Sorry, I think we have a little bit of a delay on the line as you join us, but I will give you the floor in just a moment to speak at length. We also have the head of Corrin Pacey, Carly Brightly Hodges, who joins me in studio. Good morning. Good morning, thank you. So let us talk about this a little bit. I mentioned alluded to there that some childminders feel that they need to turn away children that they've cared for as babies because they cannot

continue to afford to look after them once a child hits its third birthday. Explain how they are funded at the moment. So there is different funding for different aged children and at the moment that the three and four year old funding rate is far below that required by child minders and all early years providers. So this is an issue across the sector. So funded meaning what do they get, what do they not get?

So they are funded by the government's funded entitlement scheme and so for child minors and early as providers, they receive an hourly rate from the government to cover that childcare for that three and four-year-old. It's slightly different to two-year-olds and it's slightly different to nine months old. But there's a real kind of gap in the three- and four-year-old funding that means it doesn't cover the hourly rate of child-minders or other providers.

So what is it that a childminder would be asking for? It's the local authority that funds? So there's a national government rate that is set and then it goes to the local authority who take their calculations, they take off a percentage in order to provide that funding. And then the childminder and other early years providers are left with that amount left at the end for funding.

So it can vary depending on what local authority you're in. Okay. But child minders that you are speaking to is saying that hourly rate is not high enough from the funding that they receive? Not at all, not compared to the other age groups and it's far below what they would normally charged for three. What are we talking about? Let's get specific. In terms of the three

year and four year old funding rates, sorry, I don't have its hand right now. Bear with me for just a second. Yeah, no problem. But the national rate is, yeah, it's a far lower than what they would normally charge. Different child minors might have a different hourly rate anyway. Okay. Are we talking about a difference of pounds? Yes. Per hour. Well, let's bring in Georgina at this point. How do you find it personally? What is it that you're missing? What is the shortfall that you think needs to be basically filled by the local authority or intern the government? I think there's a number of reasons

why child men are leaving the profession. One of the big ones is funding. Following on from what's just been discussed, the three-year funding is nearly half the rate of what it is for an under two. So I currently am looking after a small group of children. Obviously, we have limited places. And all of mine have now turned three.

And I am running at a loss every day because what the funding covers is less than my hourly rate. Can you give me figures on that? What it would be for a three-year-old compared to a child that's two or under? I haven't got the exact figures, but you're looking at half of what it is. And why is that? Why is it funded differently? The funding system is based around nurseries. So it was set up with nurseries in mind,

and nurseries have a completely different set up. They run completely differently. We all follow the same EYFS. We are all passionate about giving children the best that we can. But their system is completely different. And within a nursery, ratios are one adult to three babies, but then when you get up to three-year-olds, it's one adult to eight.

three, three, four-year-olds, whereas in a child mind, as most child minds are running at three or roughly three early years, children every day, regardless of their age, so I could have three under twos, or I could have three-and-four-year-olds, as I do at the moment, because I've had some of these little ones with me since they were eight months old. I've nurtured them for the past three years, and, you know, they get to three, and I don't want to have to turn them away. Why is the funding different, Carly, for nurseries and child minders when it comes to that classic three-year-old gap which we're talking about. So the funding is not different and that's the issue. The funding is for child minders and nurseries is based on the nursery ratio.

And so we're calling for a review of that to look at a childminder centred approach to funding that considers childminder ratios for child minders rather than nursery ratios. So that it would bump up the figures for child. Minders when it comes to what the government needs to pay for three-year-olds? Not necessarily. There could be different forms of models. That's what we want to explore. But at the moment, the three- and four-year-old rate, if you're a childminder who purely looks after three- and four-year-olds, you'd that be a great loss. But your childminder couldn't take on two or three nine months old as nurseries can. So we just need to look at a funding model that would be flexible and support and sustained child-minded businesses.

You'd say you're working at a loss at the moment, Georgina. How long do you think you can continue? I am feeling very lucky that I've been able to manage this loss. I'm personally in a two-income household, so we have managed to fill the shortfall, but not everyone's in that same position. And could I do that for an extended period of time? No, I couldn't because that wouldn't be sustainable.

You know, child minders are incredibly powerful. passionate. We love what we do. And, you know, passion can only sustain you for so long because at the end of the day, we still have families. We still have bills to pay. And yeah, something needs to be done to make that easier for people. Would you prefer if the ratios were different if you were allowed more children per adult as a childminder in the way that nurseries can? I don't think that's the way forward at all. Obviously, it's complete, I've come from a nursery background. I worked in nurseries for a number of years. I've been in early years for over 15 years. I've seen it from all sides. And I don't think that's the way forward because when you're a lone worker,

you can only spread yourself so thin. I offer a very, I pride myself on my curriculum. I do lots of exciting and meaningful things with the children and they thrive in my care. And if you were to add lots more children into that mix, that's going to at some point start dilution. because I can only offer so much to each child when I work on my own. I think the only way that it could be done to still benefit the children as well, because at the end of the day, people who work in early years, we do it because we love working with children. As childminders, we offer something unique.

We offer continuity. We have deep relationships. We offer time. And every day across the UK, childminders open not just their doors, but their hearts, to thousands of children and make a difference to them and I think it needs to be looked at where we have our own funding model to make it sustainable.

So let's get into some of the news, I suppose, out today as well. Ofsted, as I mentioned, the number of childminders has dropped to 25,000 from 60,000 back in 2009. How do you understand that, Caroline? I think obviously that's a huge drop that the sector can't afford right now. I think the fact that we have 25,000 child minders today is purely down to the passion and commitment of the child minders we have.

That's not due to any significant intervention from the government. So that 4% decline on the previous year has steadied. It was 4% the year before. Childminders provide 151,000 early years places. They are a huge part of the early years sector, but they are not treated as equal to other providers. And we're asking for the government to just prioritise childminders, create a strategy that focuses on childminder workforce, looks at funding, looks at the three and four

year old funding for all of the sector, looks at funding for childminder, funding model, and also looks at the rule that childminders cannot claim funding for related children, which they can do in nurseries and they can do in Wales. Repeat that last line? Childminders cannot claim funding for related children. Oh, okay, for related children. Yeah, so that might be for grandsons and granddaughters, or that might be for niece and nephews. So we're not talking about... Related to the child-minded. Yeah, so they can do that in group settings now, and they can do that in Wales. And that would go a long way to supporting child-minders

and allowing us to retain some of those skilled and passionate child-minders. I do want to read a statement from the Department of Education spokesperson. Child-minders, they say, provide flexible, high-quality care, the family's value, and we recognise the pressures many of them face. They go on to say, as we deliver our plan for change, we're backing the sector with over $8 billion in funding this year, including an increase in rates, while we're expanding school-based nurseries

at Best Stark Family Hubs, that the workforce has grown significantly. Childminders can use funding flexibly across the children they look after. It isn't tied to one age group, and many could benefit from growing demand for places. Georgina? I think it's lovely that they're saying that, obviously,

but I think child minds across the country have to feel that. Child minds are often feel that they're the invisible part the system that we are an essential strand. We offer flexible home from home care and where children thrive in small groups and strong attachments. And I think that that's not always radiated from the government. And I think we need to change the narrative around child minds and that starts at the top. So that's a change in the narrative is interesting because we've spoken about funding and I know you've said that is some of the support that you would want. But how do you change the narrative how do you want to be spoken about i think child minders need to be seen

as the educated professionals that we are we offer so much you know i like i say i've worked in nurseries i've worked and i've worked in the child minding sector for a number of years and i feel very grateful for the connections that i've made during my time in both sectors but um i do think we can often be perceived to be things that we're not. And I think, you know, all early years, people, I'm sure at some point I've had that just a babysitter line thrown at them or words similar to that effect. I do feel that childminders feel that the most.

We get that the most. I'm not just a childminder. I am a mum and I am on parenting forums. And I have seen people use the word. words that we're not as educated, that we're not as safe, and some really quite hurtful and damaging things. And we are just as good, if not better in places as nurseries. We do so much for the sector. And I think it would be an absolute devastating loss if we were to lose more childminders. We are losing incredibly passionate people every day. And so you think

the narrative around them, I think I'm hearing from you, plays into why people are leaving. You also mentioned funding, of course. If you're not being, you know, if you're working at a loss, you can do that for X amount of time. Any other reasons why you feel people are leaving? Well, I think there's obviously quite a few, but the ones that people communicate with me the most about is also pressures from Ofsted. I think there's a lot of inconsistencies around offstead and that can make it incredibly difficult because in any earlier setting, everyone will discuss the pressures of offset and inconsistent. That they are not always, you know, reading from the same hymn sheet, people have different

opinions and it's not just taken from what is in black and white. So the gradings aren't always reflecting. I mean, you have, as a child mind, you might have an, um, an offstead inspector come in and they see three hours or thereabouts of the. care and education that you provide. However, that's not a true reflection on what we're doing day in, day out. And obviously, it depends what inspectee might have, the things that they prioritize. That's the same across early years. That's not just childminders.

However, within other early years settings, you can share that load. You know, if you're working in a school-based nursery, if you're working in a private nursery, if you're working in a preschool and you've got other staff, you can share that load. you can help and support each other. If you're a lone working child-minded, you are wearing all the hats every day and you have all the pressures. And I don't think a lot of the emotional weight

is seen, understood and valued. It's interesting. I mean, we've often spoken about Ofsted in reference to schools at length, but interesting to hear your perspective. I do not have a response from Ofsted at the moment to your characterization of how you see it, But I want to thank you for joining me, Georgina Young.

She is a childminder, as she was describing. And we had Carly Brightly Hodges, the head of Coram Pacey, that is a professional association for home-based child professionals. The reason we're talking about it is because new figures out from Ostet covers England. There are other regulatory bodies for the other nations. Says that the number has fallen in England to 25,000 child minors. It was 60,000, as I mentioned, back in 2000. Any thoughts on that? Maybe you got stuck this morning. You haven't got childminders. Maybe you use a child minder. Maybe you are a child minder 84844 if you would like to get in touch. Now, many of you will know Saskia Reeves from super hit Apple TV series Slow Horses. I've just started watching it. I've been slow to the game, but I have started. It's about a bunch of MI5 misfits perhaps that have kind of been put in this reject house called Slough.

Low House down around Clarkinwell, and she plays Catherine Standish. She's a PA, she's a recovering alcoholic, but she manages to slip under the radar and she often saves the day. Fabulous character. Last night, however, I had the pleasure of watching Saskia opposite Cliveone in end at the National Theatre. And this is the last of a trilogy of plays written by David Eldridge. It explores love and relationships. There were various couples in beginning and middle, which I didn't see, but I was lucky to see end last night. Welcome, Saskia. Hello, good morning.

What a moving performance. Oh, thank you. You could hear a pin drop in a number of those scenes. I'm just wondering, how do you feel the morning after an intense 90-minute performance, which is a two-hander? It's just you and Clive. Yeah, I'm tired. I can understand that.

But that's because we've just, you know, we've had six weeks rehearsals. we've had a tech. We've, this is our, tonight will be our sixth preview. So we're still exploring, you know, I'll be going in this afternoon to do more rehearsals, talk about things. I'll miss that actually when we are performing after tomorrow night. Tomorrow night's our official opening night.

You're ready. I think you're ready. I loved it. You know, I wondered about Cliveone and because the chemistry is amazing and it's very believable as a couple that you are there. Shall we tell them a little bit of the story, perhaps? How can I tell you about it without giving it all away? It's about exploring a couple at a point in their life, I think, where they're trying to negotiate each other and. the outside world and themselves.

They've come to a point, a very, very difficult point in their life. They're in their late 50s. Yes. She says, doesn't she? There'll be 60 in a couple of years. That's right. They have a big party that they're planning.

But you are back performing with Clive Owen, who you starred with in the David Nichols film. No, no. Stephen Poliukov. Oh, Stephen Polikoff. Forgive me. My notes are incorrect. But I do know that that was many, many years ago.

It was, it was 35 years ago, something like that. So 35 years ago. And I thought while watching that, that, you know, because a lot of this is about being in a couple when time passes and memories and decades go in. And you are still those same people, although maybe to a younger generation, you might seem like an older person, but that young person is still inside. And I wondered what that was like because you're actually living that with Clive, right? If you guys worked together so closely many years ago.

Well, we had a very intense experience doing Close My Eyes. It was a very risky, unusual film. I actually can't really remember much of it. Really? Why do you think that is? I don't know, just because it was a very long time ago. have little memories, but they're not the same. 91? Yes. But there is a

baseline of trust, actually, and security and safety that the minute we started reading the play together, I felt. I could feel it in my body. I was like, oh, okay, no, I know. I know who I'm with. Like a muscle memory? Yeah, and that has been an amazing gift for this play.

to start off at that point for the next six weeks rehearsal rather than having to work towards that. So that's been really special. Because the couple comes across so believable and so many little aspects of domesticity that we all go through if we're in a long-term relationship of, I don't know, bickering with one another, poking each other and then having a laugh in the next moment, for example.

That's right. somebody, this isn't my quote, but it's a very, very brilliant one. Somebody asked George Harrison's wife what the secret of a long marriage was and she said, not getting divorced. I thought, yeah, I understand that. Just holding out. Let's talk about the role of music and dance in this. And people might think theatre, national theatre, music and dance,

they might have one thing in their head. But we're talking about house music, which is very relatable for those who are dancing, clubs in the 80s or 90s. I knew every one of those tunes, every single one, a banger. How was that to just to let people know there is

like intense bursts of music that brings you to another place? I think the John Lewis ad, actually. I was thinking if people have watched that. Oh, I don't know what you're talking about there. No, but David Eldridge has written this beautiful play where you're dealing

with people who've been together a long time. They're dealing with where they're at. in their lives now and yet they're bringing themselves back to another life when they were younger

and he does this amazing thing where you're watching two actors who are older and yet I'm sure there are people in the audience as you've just said of yourself where you suddenly hear a piece of music

and suddenly you feel you're 18, 19, 20 again and he does this play has had a very profound effect on me as I've as I've worked on it as I've learned it and played it it's become more and more complicated and more complex I mean let's explore that a bit further what is it that it's bringing up well the fact that we are still the age I still think I'm 24 sometimes and you know I still feel like that young Saska who loved to go out dancing myself you know

And I think that's one of the things I was very excited about the play when I read it. I thought, God, we're going to listen to a bit of house music on those Dorfman loudly because that is going to be. And when you were dancing, I was like, oh, yeah. No, she definitely was in the club. Perhaps it's been on a podium. And it's just exciting. And that's part of the character of the play. These people were ravers when they were younger.

And yet they, I think, what David's really talking about is you're talking about creative people and what he also does is he writes about what he knows so David's from Essex these guys are from Essex they're working class but they've moved to Crouch End

there's that aspiration there's that moving up or moving away from Romford and there you I think I watched beginning and I realized what he does so brilliantly is

challenge you as an audience you realize you've just projected onto somebody just because of the way they sound or the way they look and actually that is not that person you are not what you look like you are not what you sound like you are much more or you're not the person you're being assumed you are and these two people he's very creative he's always been an outlier

he was a DJ, he's a very successful DJ, but he's had to accommodate, he's had to renegotiate his work through various things that happen in their life. She is now a genre writer, very, very good writer. And so you, she did an MA, probably at Birkbeck, you know, I did my research. So these things just keep tripping the audience up.

It's really lovely to put a brand new play in front of an audience like this. It is beautiful. Yeah, I loved watching it. And I think, sorry to interrupt you, I think therefore, and somebody said this, one of an audience member, a friend said, it's lovely to be in that theatre

and suddenly you hear a piece of music and you're watching the end of something and yet you're being thrown back to the beginning of something else. So these things are happening at the same time. And I think with the music when it's on, I found anyway, that we are so much in the moment with you. And when they stop the music,

It's like, boom, and we're thrown back into the present again. Music is magic. It kind of reminded me as well off those days back in the day when the lights would go on and the music stops and it's like that staccato kind of a rough den. You used to stay to the end, did you? Oh, I sure did. Now, let us talk a little bit more about you.

Your plan wasn't to become an actor? I didn't have a plan. I was crashing and burning, I think, around 18, 19, and I overheard a conversation in our house about drama schools, and I thought, hang on a minute, this could be a lifeline out of no A-levels, not doing very well at school and that. And I luckily got into Guildhall.

So that was a reprieve. All my friends were going to universities. So I did three years of drama training. And my father was an actor and a singer. and I knew it was not an easy profession at all, especially for women. And I thought, I'll give it a go, but, you know, if I can stay off the dole, that to me is success. He had a note on his study wall. Yes, he did.

So it went along the lines of you can have luck, you can have talent, but what you really need is perseverance. And did you have that in Bucketland? I did, yes. I think because I didn't have a plan B, I had no, I had nothing else. else to fall back on. Many people say, oh, no, my parents made me do a degree in law or medicine because they wanted me to have a second string to my bow. I did not have a second string.

It was more like a tightrope. But the tight rope you have walked. I think lots of our listeners will know you from slow horses as well and, you know, it's much loved. How do you understand that being such a hit series? I mentioned at the top that you are this somewhat dowdy, is that fair to say, character that's kind of roaming around the edges. She's not dowdy. She loves her clothes. She's very particular.

You explain the character because you are her. Well, Mick Heron, who wrote the books, he made her, really. And it was an absolute pleasure to step into her court shoes. her dress sense is old but she's very proud of her dress you know what she wears I think Mick describes her in book one as wearing these Laura Ashley outfits

I was very keen that we start designing and the designer said no no we're not having Laura Ashley but we are going to go down a similar road so with her though how do you understand the success of the series I it's It's amazing. It's sort of grown and grown an episode.

I remember when series three came out, it sort of burst into flames. It had been smoking. And then it just ignited. I think because of Gary, I think because of the writing. That's Gary Oldman, who plays Jackson, Gary Oldman.

The books are fantastic, written by Mick Herron. Will Smith, our showrunner, until Series 6. He's remarkable writer. it's just a lot of very clever people at the top of their game creating this wonderful group of misfits and I think there's something very because they're not very successful and things don't really work in the office

there's this there's this recognition of yeah it's a bit crap isn't it you know the printer doesn't work the door sticks you know And that sense of just slightly failing, dysfunction, I think people warm to that. It's not that flash, Le Carre, Bond world of spies. We know a lot of the spots they're running by as well. The buses are late. It rains.

So there is another series about to start filming. Yeah, Series 5 has just come out and they've just started series 7. I think I'm allowed to say that. So you're staying there for a while? I am, yes. While fitting in some theatre. Yes. The difference between the two?

A live audience. I mean, I thought, I remember the first day we sat, we stood up and walked on the set. Yeah. In the studio for the national. And I thought, hang on a minute. No, I'm fine. This is great. It's like being on a film set.

The next step is then to put it into the theatre and use slightly different muscles and make sure you don't do everything upstage to remind myself of that because I haven't been on stage for seven years but it's lovely to be in that environment. I love it. Well, I loved seeing you in it.

Thank you very much, Saskia Rees, for coming in. My pleasure. I do want to let people know that end runs at the national theatre until the 17th. of January, enjoy it all. Thanks for getting in touch with us. Let me see. Hi, I want to say how fabulous my daughter's childminder was. I'm a single mum. I work long hours and the nursery setting could not offer the odd hours I needed. My daughter had an amazing time with her childminder having

fabulous experiences that my friend's children who were in nursery did not get. I couldn't have managed without her. My daughter developed a strong relationship with her with what became a second family. Well, that brings me on to some more parenting. Have you heard about the CBB's Parenting Download? It's a brand new podcast. It unpacks the stories that have got parents talking from viral trends and dilemmas to the news stories that are lighting up group chats. It's hosted by Radio 1 presenter and new mum, Katie Thistleton,

Anne Mobo Award-winning rapper and dad of two, Governor B. CBB's Parenting Download gives practical information, expert advice and support to families to help them through the crucial early years. Episode 1 tackles one of the hardest conversations. how to talk to children about grief and loss. The author Anne McFly, frontman, Tom Fletcher, joined the podcast to offer some advice, as well as therapist Amanda Orange,

who shared practical tips to make those moments a little easier. We can be quite scared of the word death. Yeah. And I think that's something that I'm really passionate about, that particularly in the West, I think we can be very frightened of it. And we see that a lot in our hospice with, you know, adults that I don't know how to communicate. And they're like, can you help me communicate?

and it's trying to say, no, it's, you know, it's okay, just be gentle and use language that, you know, obviously is appropriate for their age. But, you know, don't go near kind of euphemisms, things like passed away. Yeah, why is that? Because children particularly, you know, they're very concrete and literal in their thinking, especially sort of when they're younger. And so unless you tell them, they're trying to make meaning of things. And so if you say something like, you know, Granny's gone to sleep,

then they don't realize that that's final so then they might come back and say well actually can you know can granny wake up now and that can be quite scary or they might actually be scared up in the sky things like that and then it's not final

and so they can start to you know there's that age particularly when they're younger where there's that magical thinking and then they can also sort of start to make meaning that is actually more scary because they don't really understand that actually this is a final so it's okay to use the word death

That's actually really encouraging to hear. I remember a story with one of my mates in school where his granddad passed away and his parents said, he's just upstairs with God. And my friend, like, every week was like, once he's coming downstairs? Yeah, and kids can be quite literal, can't they,

in how they speak about death. Recently there's somebody who we have in our hospice, for adults, we put on a workshop, but a presentation about what is grief. And again, trying to bring that connection with adults. to sort of share how they're doing. And then we had one adult who said that because he was really quite moved when I was talking about the children's work that we do at the hospice.

And she was like, this is so valuable. She said because when I was younger and when my granddad, he died, I made some food for him. And because my parents didn't sort of say anything about the death, I spent a lot of my time thinking that it was because of the food that I made him. Oh, gosh, that's so awful. And it just made me realise, recognise it's how important it is to have that conversation. Just a taster there from the brand-new CBB parenting download.

It's available weekly on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts and on iPlayer. Now, Shemima Begum, you'll know that name. She's the woman who joined the Islamic State Group as a schoolgirl. And she is the most high-profile detainee in the Al Raj refugee camp in northeastern Syria. She's now 26. but she is far from the only individual connected to the UK who's living in a similar sort of camp or detention centre in Iraq or Syria. In fact, there are approximately 70 people, 10 men, 15 to 20 women and 30 to 40 children.

The numbers are estimates. And they come from the Independent Commission on UK Counterterrorism, who in the past week has published a report setting out recommendations to strengthen oversight and accountability of the UK's counterterrorism framework. It warns that the current policy of leaving these women and children in the camps is unsustainable. And it argues that an organised programme of return, rehabilitation and integration is the best long-term option for managing the risk to public safety. To talk about this further, I'm joined by Catherine Brown in studio. Good morning. Catherine is a professor of religion, gender and global security at the University of Birmingham.

She's one of the 14 commissioners who brought this report together. And we also have with us, Frank Gardner, the BBC security correspondent. Good morning, Frank. Good morning, Helen. First, Catherine, what were you trying to do with this report? Yeah, so the report was really about giving us an overview, like a 360 review of counterterrorism. Counter-terrorism policies and practices have been going on for like 20, 30 plus years.

But no one had really looked at it as a whole. And so we were doing something similar to like a Dr. Wood when they do like a meds review. Right. you might take a medication for one thing and then it creates side effects so you take another medication and then another and eventually they all pile up and we're not really sure whether we still need the first piece

or whether in fact it's counterproductive now and that was the aim of the commission to give this holistic oversight and to do it independently as well not from one side or another and with no particular agenda driving it just to assess does this work does it give us security

and does it achieve what we're looking for in the UK Does it give security? I think there's scope for reform and there's scope for change for accountability for the rule of law and especially to make sure that we really respond to the threats that the UK is facing today.

Frank, how would you see? So the Commission says that Britain's counter-terrorism strategy needs to be reformed in some ways that it's not perhaps keeping the country as safe as it could. Is that a view held by others? It depends on you talk to. Look, every time a terrorist attack gets through, such as 2017, which was a particularly bad year, because we have the Manchester bombing, questions are rightly asked about what was MI5 doing, the security service. Why didn't they spot this? Why didn't they make this a top priority? And very often, there are signs that are logged, but perhaps don't get right to the top of the list.

and it's a question of prioritization they've got a limited number of resources they've got to focus those on what are the most urgent priorities they don't always get it right but mostly they do but they never sort of they never take a day off as it were

I think one of the problems in the past less acute now has been that there is a feeling there has been a feeling of victimization particularly in Muslim communities that part of the counter-terrorism strategy known as contest, which is something called prevent,

it's one of the four P's, prepare, protect, pursue and prevent, which is aimed at steering vulnerable people, particularly young people, away from radicalisation and terrorism, that has sometimes been seen as being counterproductive, that it's fed into an atmosphere

of, well, people are just focusing on Muslims alone. And actually the truth is that today, Of the caseload, the workload on counterterrorism that MI5, the Security Service does, 75% is still Al-Qaeda and ISIS directed and inspired terrorism. 25% is what they call extreme right-wing terrorism, ERWT. So some of the numbers changing there. But when you talk about al-Qaeda and ISIS, for example, we are going to be talking about a group of women and children that I mentioned

in our introduction that are still in camps in Iraq and Syria. Are there women and children, and particularly the mothers perhaps, who had links to Islamic State Group, already been returned to the UK? There have been a very small number in 2022 and 2023, if you're talking about UK. Other countries have been much more proactive.

Sweden, even the United States, many other countries have taken back their citizens and successfully in most cases reintegrated them into society. Over here I think there is a reluctance to do that in counterterrorism because they fear that it would take a huge amount of resources of police and MI5 to monitor people who are what's called SOI subjects of interest and would be potential threats in their eyes

others would say look it's really simple prosecute them and if the evidence isn't there let them go and yeah sorry go ahead no I'm just thinking with that point of let them go I'm going to throw it back over to Catherine because with your review or the conclusion

is related, you say, to the need and the commissioners, to repatriate these women and children in the camps. Why? What is your argument? So the argument is actually quite simple, leaving them in Iraq and Syria harms national security in that they become the posted girls and children of terrorist groups. And in fact, when we return them,

they're able to show and visibly demonstrate that they can and are part of, British society. The other argument is quite simple. The majority are children. These are children who are victims of circumstance. They're victims of perhaps bad parenting or bad grandparenting in some cases. And that's why they're there. And they're British citizens and they're living in terrible, horrific conditions. We have an obligation to return them and we can. So all the people you're talking about are British citizens. Shemina Begham, of course, is an individual case who is stripped of citizenship. That case continues. But the others are all British citizens.

So not all of them, the children remain British citizens, but some of them, their mothers have had their citizenship revoked. We can return them if we extend the travel exclusion orders to non-citizens. And we can return them. What do you mean by a travel exclusion order? So a travel exclusion order is something that controls how an individual might return to the UK and places conditions upon their return. And with doing that, we can say, yes, you can remain here as part of that family unit so that we don't retramatize. children, but there are conditions for doing so, and we can still prosecute them. But just as Frank brought up there, the resources could be immense.

We're talking at small numbers. We need to be realistic about what is actually required, and we have existing resources. We can use social services. We can use the NHS. Prevent is already up and running. Channel is already up and running. And actually, in the grand scheme of things, the longer we leave it, the greater the resources will be that will be required better to do it now and to do it effectively. And, well, there's a couple of things. Why are they a bigger security risk, according to the Commission, in Iraq or Syria, in these camps, than they may be when they return?

Partly because of the propaganda material that is left, right? So in the sense that if the UK leaves children, British children, in horrific conditions, We're giving fuel to the fire of extremists who say that we don't care about our citizens equally, that we don't care about Muslim children. That feeds that fuel to propagandists. And we don't need to do that. We can say, actually, British values, the rule of law, mean that we can bring children back with their mothers

and provide proper care for the children and bring where appropriate the women to justice, should that be appropriate. Well, that's the part I'm thinking about. Sorry, Frank, go ahead. Please do, please do. Go ahead. There is a further risk to add to what to Dr. Catherine saying to Professor Catherine, that ISIS have made it a sworn duty to try and break these women and children out, their sisters, as they call them, out of these camps. They're guarded by Western-back Syrian fighters who are often under attack from Turkey.

Turkey considers its number one enemy to be the Kurds, and they periodically attack Kurdish units. There is a persistent risk that one day there may be a serious breakout from these camps. And the people who Catherine is talking about there are subject to continual constant radicalization in these camps. they are surrounded by the jihadist mindset. And if I'm not arguing for one one or the other, I'm just saying here are the arguments. So those who would like to bring them back say, look, at least then there is a chance, as she says,

to kind of surround them with social workers, reintegrate them. Whereas if they're running around, roaming around the Middle East, they are likely to be drawn back into the ranks of all. incorporated into the ranks, rather, a vices, and become a threat. And I know the Commission puts forward as well that the conditions of the women and children in these camps, you describe it as inhumane degrading treatment. But I am wondering if these women did come back to the UK with their children.

You're calling for the prosecution of some, but not all? So where the evidence allows for that prosecution, right? So we call on the CPS and to investigate the women. So we're saying not come back and everything's fine and everything's forgotten, but that there is a proper investigation. And you can only really do that once they're here. Part of the challenge at the moment is that some of the women, we're not quite sure where they are at the moment,

because the security conditions are so terrible out there. We're not quite sure what happened to many of the women while they were out there. There is some evidence. but again we're not quite sure but if they were to come back to the UK we could actually find out from them as witnesses what happened to them what happened to the children

and then we can start building cases where appropriate there's a couple of things I'm thinking which you can't know the answer to but I think we should still highlight it that if some of these women come back if they are prosecuted if they are convicted and sentenced

they will be separated from their children indeed but within the UK prison system there are processes and ways that children can have contact with their mothers, it can be explained to them, and at least then the children are definitely back in the UK. And I would also say that from evidence that we do have, some interviews that were done of foreign national women in Iraq, only 2 to 5% were shown to have had really strong active engagement with IS. The majority of the women, over 95% of them, identified as mothers, as wives, and they were there to keep the family unit together.

So their active involvement, the evidence suggests, is a really tiny percentage of the overall number of women anyway. Yes, and some people I know listening will think even one person coming back is too many, but you are putting across what the commission has found. Frank, may I come back to you for a moment. Professor Catherine is talking about, you know, repatriation, also if needed, de-radicalisation or social services helping reintegrate. How successful can that be?

Because there was so many questions, of course, of people that went through prevent and then carried out terror attacks within the UK. Yeah, it's a mixed bag. It's a very controversial strategy, to be honest. They have a programme which Professor Catherine mentioned called Channel, which tries to actively steer vulnerable people away. Sometimes they are reported by it can be their teachers, social workers, by friends even, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and

sometimes they miss people. Some people simply walk away from it and sort of disappear from the system. But there have been successes. There's no question about it. So periodically people say it's time to abolish it, it's time to come up with something new. There is no silver bullet for this. People have lots of different reasons for getting radicalised. There's often a crossover between being inspired by a violent ideology and breakups in the family home, mental health, physical health, lots of different reasons. And there is no one-size program that fits everything. So until they come up with a better solution, I think that we are stuck with what we've got. Frank Gardner is the BBC security correspondent, Professor Catherine Brown, Professor of Religion, Gender and Gender,

Global Security at the University of Birmingham is one of the commissioners of the Independent Commission on UK Terrorism. Thanks very much to both of you for speaking through on this topic. I do want to also read a government spokesperson statement from the Home Office says we're aware

there are British nationals in displaced persons camps in Syria, including children who because of their age are innocent victims of this conflict. The government will seek to facilitate the return of British unaccompanied minors and orphans wherever possible. This is on a case-by-case basis and subject to national security considerations.

Let me see. A message just came in. It says, hi, we have primary school-aged children. Your discussion about explaining death to small children was great. Language is so important. One friend told me that when their son went on his first plane journey, he expected to see dead people in the clouds, as he had been told people died and went up to heaven in the sky.

Honest, gentle, accurate openness seems important. And that, of course, is from our CBB's parenting podcast, which you can find on people. BBC Sands. Now, coroner's advice and also their concerns on maternal deaths in England and Wales is being ignored despite raising repeated issues according to a new study. Joining me to discuss is Dr. Georgia Richards, the founder of Preventable Deaths Trackers, the study at King's College London.

On the line from New Zealand, you're a long way away, but we're very glad to have you, Doctor. So explain, first of all, the preventable deaths tracker, the prevention of future. death report. What is it exactly? Yes, good morning. Thank you for having me. So when unnatural deaths occur in England and Wales, these get referred to coroners in England and Wales who have a legal obligation and duty to investigate these deaths. They also then have a duty to, after their investigations, to write prevention of future death reports to different organisations who have the power to take actions to prevent these future deaths occurring in the future. So tell us some of the things that you found in your study.

Yeah, so we were interested in looking at deaths that had occurred in during maternity. So this includes during pregnancy, during childbirth, and in the postpartum period of women. And we were looking at a 10-year period of these prevention of future death reports. And so what we really found is that repeated concerns are raised over that decade. And these were including failures to provide appropriate treatment to women, failures to escalate care, failure to recognize risk factors and provide adequate training to midwives and those who are looking after women during the maternal period.

And these repeated concerns were not acted upon after these reports are written and issued by coroners across England and Wales for the past decade. Over the past decade. I mean, it's something I wasn't familiar with, but is it, I don't know, would it be expected that these reports would be acted on, that coroner's reports make up part of the best practices for the NHS, for example, if in fact it's happening in NHS hospitals? Unfortunately, there's no standard mechanism across the country to act upon these concerns. So we do have Embrace, which is a UK-wide registry. that doesn't include coronial concerns and there is no national system to collect and track

recommendations or concerns raised by coroners, which is exactly what preventable death tracker does for England and Wales. So what can happen with this? If there is all this information that the coroners know, I mean, is it to try and pressure the government into taking that into account? Of course, there's so many reviews that are taking place on failings in maternity care at the moment, including deaths. Definitely. So there is a legal obligation for organizations that by law must respond to the

coroner within 56 days to outline actions taken to prevent these deaths occurring in the future. But there is no mechanism or any individual organization or research unit dedicated and funded to analyze this information to ensure that, to understand really what concerns are being raised and then to ensure that action is taken. There is no system across the NHS to use this information and there's no standardised approach. And so that really is what the preventable death tracker is calling for. It's for this national database to ensure that we understand

what learnings could occur across the country and then to routinely analyze that and feed that into policy because there are so many ongoing public inquiries and to ensure this information is able to provide evidence-based recommendations for policymakers to ensure these deaths don't occur again in the future. And what is at the heart? Is it at the NHS that's at the heart of these findings? Well, yes and no.

NHS, yes, in terms of they're the ones who provide care for most women across the country. But this is also led by the Ministry of Justice. And so the MOJ is the policy frontier. And we really need the MOJ to work alongside the NHS and to have this interdisciplinary approach. about how we deal with death because we have so much siloed systems across the country and we really need to start working together. And I don't have a response to this story either from the NHS or indeed the MOJ,

as you say, that they are also involved, as you would like in the future between the two to take some of these concerns on. I did see in the report the two-thirds of the deaths occurred in hospitals. 27% caused by hemorrhage, 20% in early pregnancy, which included complications of ectopic pregnancies and terminations, and 20 where people took their own life. Do you expect a change in this? Do you expect some of these findings to be taken on board? Well, it cannot get any worse, really. We're at the sort of real, the past sort of decade we've seen a maternity care has really started to decrease in terms of, the care that's provided to women. So we do have Professor Amos's review due to be delivered in December. And I really hope that Baronessori Amos does take on board these concerns raised by

coroners and that we don't see these repeated concerns again. But we must have investment from the government to the MOJ and to the NHS to ensure that there is a national, systematic way to learn lessons following maternal deaths. And if people do want to read more about this, It is the Preventable Debt's Tracker. It's from King's College London, Dr. Georgia Richards. I know it's late there in New Zealand. Thank you so much for joining us this evening as it is in your part of the world on Women's Hour today. Now tomorrow, Anita will be joined by Francesca Hennessy, a 21-year-old shaking up women's boxing.

She's nicknamed the billion-dollar baby. She's unbeaten in her first six professional fights. She's fighting on the bill when boxing returns to BBC Primetime TV. 29th of November and also the Scottish painter Caroline Walker on the realities of motherhood she has a new exhibition

and Suzanne Edwards the story of a woman who told she wouldn't be able to regain the use of her legs is now learning to walk again with the use of neural implants all worth listening to that's all for today's woman's hour

join us again next time Hello I'm Kimberly Wilson I'm a psychologist and in my new podcast complex I'll be your guide through all the information and misinformation that's out there about mental health. I'm joined by expert guests covering topics from people pleasing to perfectionism, burnout to empathy, to find tangible advice so we can understand ourselves a little better. Complex with me, Kimberly Wilson. Listen on BBC Sounds.