Woman's Hour - Saxophonist Nubya Garcia, Rainbow babies, Insomnia, Vaccine passports

Episode Date: August 2, 2021

Over the weekend Carrie Johnson announced she was expecting another baby describing it as a "rainbow" baby because she'd experienced a miscarriage earlier this year. Ruth Bender Atik from The Miscarriage Association talks to Andrea. Journalist Miranda Levy describes her new book, ‘The Insomnia Diaries’, as a ‘self-help’ memoir looking at eight and a half years of disabling insomnia. Miranda recovered and has used her experience to explain what she thinks we should do when facing insomnia and- what NOT to do. Daisy Maskell is a tv and radio presenter. In a soon-to-be-aired BBC 3 documentary she says she realised at the age of nine that she didn’t sleep like other people. They join Andrea. Watching the Olympics on TV is not what Amber Hill imagined she would be doing. The night before she was due to leave the UK for Tokyo, the 23 year old shooter had to withdraw from the Games after testing positive for Covid. She was due to compete in the Women's Olympics Skeet competition, in which she was a finalist in Rio in 2016. This time she was number one in the world and hopeful of a gold medal but had to watch the American, Amber English, take the medal. Are vaccine passports gendered? Dr Clare Wenham who's an Assistant Professor of Global Health Policy at LSE says introducing them will limit women’s public opportunities and further entrench the gendered norms of men at work and women in the home which have been compounded over the last year. British saxophonist, composer, DJ and bandleader Nubya Garcia has been nominated for a Mercury Prize, and is one of the brightest of a new generation of jazz talent. She makes her Proms debut later this month, performing music from her album Source.Presenter: Andrea Catherwood Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Andrea Catherwood and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Well, good morning. Well, we are speaking up on Woman's Hour today. Do you know what a rainbow baby is? It's a term that many of us had never heard of just a few days ago, but it's been all over the news this weekend, since Carrie Johnson announced on Instagram that she and the Prime Minister were expecting another baby. We're going to be discussing that.

Also on the programme, we're looking at missing out today. Now, almost all of us have missed out on important things in life because of COVID, but few more than Amber Hill. She's number one in the world in her sport and she should have been competing in the world in her sport, and she should have been competing in the Olympics in Tokyo right now. But she couldn't go when she tested positive for COVID the night before her flight. I'll be talking to her later. And more of us, particularly women,

are missing out on sleep since the pandemic. I'm joined by two women who really know what they're talking about when it comes to sleepless nights and they're going to share advice on what might actually work. Well, I would love to hear from you about missing out, insomnia or anything else we're talking about today. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check with your network provider for exact costs. On social media, it is at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. And to end the programme, we're going to catch up with Nubaya Garcia, a young British saxophonist who is taking the music world by storm. Well, let's start off by talking today to Amber Hill. Amber, the night

before your flight to Tokyo, you tested positive for COVID and you should have been taking part in the Women's Skeet, which is a clay pigeon shooting event. I can't imagine what it must feel like not to have been there. How have you coped? It was honestly heartbreaking, especially to be that close and to getting on the flight to Tokyo as well and with all the hard work that I put in honestly I just I just broke down when I because I was doing regular PCRs and natural flows every day for 10 days before I was leaving and everything came back negative and the night before I was meant to fly like the faintest line showed up on this lateral flow and instantly my

heart sank so I'm absolutely devastated not to be with the rest of Team GB, but I'm also so thankful that we did catch it and I didn't get on that flight and I've been able to isolate at home as well. Yeah, of course, because you did it for the greater good, because you could have spread it to other people on the plane. So, I mean, it is really, it must be heartbreaking for you. And also because you were going to compete, but you also stood a really good chance of a gold medal.

You were a finalist in Rio in 2016, but you actually went into these games ranked number one in the world. It's honestly been such an incredible season. Going from lockdown last year and not being able to train, having all our competitions cancelled, and for something really good to come out of it. And it kind of like spurred me on to really want to train harder and I've just I've literally just given everything this year and I can honestly say that it's been the best year of my career so far and to be ranked number one in the world I my granddad was the one

that got me into it and he used to always say yeah, yeah, one day you will be. And I don't think I really quite believed it. But the fact that I've had such a great season so far has been amazing. But just not to have that final opportunity at the Olympics is just heartbreaking. Yeah, I can. I mean, I honestly I can only imagine. Just explain to me what you've been doing since you since you went on that flight. I mean, have you been able to to watch the Olympics? you wanted to watch it what's that been like oh it's definitely been a roller coaster of emotions so one minute I'm like yeah I want to get involved in any way possible and the next minute I'm like why am I not there and feeling sorry for myself but

the thing is that I really have tried not to feel too sorry for myself because I did everything I was meant to I've given it my absolute all and unfortunately these are just the times that we're living in and I know that COVID's affected not just myself but so many other people and athletes in their preparations and stuff so I've definitely been trying to get involved as much as I can with watching it I haven't it's not exactly like I've been able to get up for anything in the morning so overnight I've been watching the games and I've been up to get up for anything in the morning. So overnight I've been watching the games and I've been wearing my kit

and just supporting in any way that I possibly can to get involved as well. Now, another Amber, Amber English, who's actually American, took the gold medal. How did you feel about that? Did you watch that? Yes, I did watch it.

And the thing is, she's an absolute fantastic shooter and maybe it's the something with the ambers. But yeah, she's such a lovely girl with it. And I've known her and shot with her for quite a while now. She was actually started before I was even shooting. So I have a huge amount of respect and honestly that she is really deserving of it too. So I'm definitely going to be back again and challenging her for it next time. Yeah, absolutely. No other British woman took your place. Is that because nobody else had qualified in the event? So we basically win a place for Great Britain. So I think it was just more there was no time to kind of organise for anyone else because we had to provide three days of PCRs

and even though we were doing it before, it was just too much of a risk to call someone in at the last minute as well. So I think it was definitely the right call not to send anyone, but hopefully next time we'll have a few more of us going as well. Now, I described it as a clay pigeon shooting event.

I'm not sure if that's very accurate. Can you tell us a little bit more about exactly what it is that you do? That is spot on. So we're shooting clay pigeons, which are about kind of, I would say 10 centimetre round discs, which are flying across the air

and going across the sky. And we shoot from eight different positions. So yeah, it's one of those things which people just really haven't heard of. And it's actually amazing because I got into it when I was 10 and people think of shotguns being bad. And it's honestly just changed my life. And we train so hard for it, just like every other sport. And the great thing about it as well is that women can shoot just as well as the men.

There's nothing limiting us. We can shoot until we're 60, 70 odd. So it's really quite an accessible sport, but it just needs a bit more exposure, I think. Amber, have you been coached on, you know, how to cope with such a massive disappointment? I mean, I just wonder what kind of support you've had to deal with all of this. So I've actually been working with psychologists. It was something that I never even thought you needed. I thought it was purely down the more I do, the better I get. But for the last year and a half, I've actually been working with psychologists. And I've just noticed, not just on the range, but off,

just how much it's helped me in my life. And I just, I don't know, just accepting like when I'm human, we're going to miss, we're going to have these downfalls. But I think for something like this it is very hard to prepare for because it's kind of something that would only happen like very it's like I couldn't even believe the timing you just couldn't even write it so it was very hard to prepare for but we did prepare for everything else which didn't seem to be much use but yeah I think we've got an amazing support team

at Team GB and within British Shooting. I'm just really grateful that they are there texting me every day and making sure that I'm okay as well. Yeah, that's wonderful. I think, I suppose a lot of people do think about shooting as being a fairly male-dominated sport. Did it feel like that to you when you first started competing? I think you were only about 10 years old when you started. 100% yeah I was only 10 years old and the only

reason I started shooting in the first place was because I didn't want to watch my brother's rugby match and my friend had used to do it so I thought oh it's a great way to time spend time with him which is exactly what I wanted to do and I just absolutely fell in love with it. I just had such an adrenaline rush after I hit my first clay and like it was definitely the pressures of it was all guys doing it and there wasn't very many girls and I was like oh like maybe I shouldn't be doing this but my granddad always really encouraged me if he's like if I enjoy it then go for it and he actually sprayed my gun all multi-colors so he had like this bright purple graffiti gun and everything and I had pink cartridges and pink ear defenders and I was kind of the first one to do it but I

feel like people really respected me for kind of making the sport my own at such a young age and not using my girly side as well. And are more girls getting into it? I've definitely noticed over the years there is a massive increase and the thing that means the most to me is when young girls say around like it's normally around 15 I'd say um because it kind of that comes down to how how well you can handle the gun and how your strength is when you're younger um but yeah when they come up to me and they say yeah you're the reason I got into this sport and it's changing my life. And it just honestly means so much to me, more than just the medals,

that being able to give back to young people and get them involved in something which they might not have done as well, just means so much to me. Amber, what's next for you? Because obviously there's another Olympics Games, hopefully in four years, but what happens before then? So I definitely think I need to take some time for myself

because this year, it just honestly, all I feel like I've done is train and isolate. And that is been my year for the, well, since last year, to be honest. So I think I need some time for myself and just to do the normal things that 23-year-olds do, go and see my friends, go out. And now everything's opened up and just really do the normal things that 23 year olds do go and see my friends go out and now everything's opened up and just really like kind of enjoy myself but come the end of the year I'm definitely looking forward to next season there's it's going to be really really busy it's

going to be the world championships European championships world cups so I'm definitely going to be targeting that and I'm not going to be away for too long. Fantastic and are you aiming for another Olympic gold or an Olympic gold next time round? A hundred percent it might have been an eight year cycle for me but I'm definitely targeting Paris and if I'm not ready with eight years of preparation then yeah there's something going wrong so I'm definitely going to make sure I'm ready. Amber Hill a pleasure to talk to you thank you very much indeed wonderful to see you so upbeat after what must have been a really really disappointing time thank you. Thank you very much indeed. Wonderful to see you so upbeat after what must have been a really, really disappointing time. Thank you. Now, over the weekend, Carrie Johnson announced that she

was expecting another baby, describing it as a rainbow baby because she'd experienced a miscarriage earlier this year. The term refers to a child that's born to a woman that's previously lost a baby to stillbirth, miscarriage or death in infancy. Well, I'm joined now by Ruth Bender-Attick, who is from the Miscarriage Association, to talk about this. Ruth, I have to say, this does seem to me to be a new term. It's one that I wasn't familiar with until the weekend. Has it been around for a while? Yes, it has been around for a while. But I think it's sort of in the lexicon of women who go through pregnancy loss or baby loss. That's where it seems to be most common. You see it a

lot on or we see it a lot on social media in particular. And it does seem to be that a lot more people are talking, speaking out on social media about miscarriage. Is it in a way a generational thing? I mean, it doesn't seem that long ago. I mean, my children and I in their late teens, but around the time that I was going through pregnancies, really was something that still a lot of people felt that they didn't want to talk about. Certainly openly, certainly not in public. I think that's still true, to be honest, but I do think the conversation is opening up more. It is helped, although this is such an unfortunate way for it to be helped,

by high profile women and men too, talking about their experience of pregnancy loss at whatever stage, you know, whether it's in the first few weeks of pregnancy or much, much later. I think that does help people think, do you know what, the feelings I've got are common. It is okay to feel the way I feel. And then it's always going to be their decision as to how much they talk about it with others. And I wonder, I mean, I think perhaps that a term like this, rainbow, is quite a helpful thing because it allows people to say, I'm having a rainbow baby, and maybe that opens a conversation with other people who understand what that means. I think that's true.

I think it has its good points and it has its bad points because rainbow suggests hope. We're looking for light and joy and full colour at the end of a dark and difficult time. I think it becomes difficult when there are also still clouds on the horizon. And that's true for many people who are going through, who are pregnant after a previous loss, because as much as they're looking forward to their rainbow baby, they're also fearful, you know, about things might still go wrong. I mean, Carrie Johnson described feeling like a bag of nerves, in her words, about being pregnant with her second child because of the earlier miscarriage. And she said that it had left her heartbroken, but she was over

the moon as well. And I suppose this mixture of very positive and negative emotions at this time is quite common. It certainly is. And I know there was an article in The Times this morning where someone is talking about her experience. It is very common. And women can sometimes feel very guilty about that, especially if people around them are saying, well, you know, you're pregnant. So just don't think about what happened before. Just look forward. And it's almost a message that if you don't feel terribly positive, you might be damaging your pregnancy in some way. And of course, that just isn't the case. It's really normal to feel anxious, perhaps until you've got your baby in your arms. I wonder what support you can suggest that you would give to a friend or indeed a daughter who is pregnant after a miscarriage and feeling some of those mixed emotions?

I think it's helpful to let them know that you're really pleased for them and happy for them. But it's also helpful to say something like, you know, I could imagine that this doesn't take away from how you felt about the baby you lost. I imagine you might still be feeling a bit anxious about this, or maybe not. And that way, you kind of let them know that you're aware of the kind of feelings they might have without assuming that you know. And presumably, it's also important to acknowledge dates, you know, when the lost baby would have been born, anniversaries, that kind of thing. Is that helpful? It can be hugely helpful because people so often feel that, you know,

once the loss has happened and maybe a couple of weeks have gone by, quite often people expect you to be over it and you don't think about it again. And especially if you have another pregnancy. So, yes, remembering those due dates, remembering, and this might sound complicated, that for some women, being pregnant and having their rainbow baby is also a stark reminder of the baby they didn't have.

And they have that sort of ambivalence because by rights, I shouldn't be having this baby. I should be having the baby I lost. So it can be quite complicated. And along with that ambivalence, I imagine that a lot of women suffer feelings of guilt. I think guilt is something that we're just brilliant at. You know, we do it all the time. So if we're pregnant and something goes wrong wrong and we miscarry or have a later loss, we think, well, it must have been something I did or didn't do, especially if

there's no obvious cause. And partners can feel that too. Men might feel, you know, there's something the matter with them. Female partners can also feel that perhaps they didn't offer enough support. So yes, a lot of self-blame. I wonder about partners in these situations. Do you think that quite often the partner of a pregnant woman gets forgotten and perhaps the loss that they've suffered as well? Yes, I do. I think you're absolutely right. Quite often a partner feels that they need to be the sort of strong, silent and supportive one because they're not the one who went through the physical loss.

But that doesn't mean that they don't feel a sense of loss and sadness and grief and maybe just anger at life and God and fate. So if nobody thinks to ask them how they're doing, they can feel very alone with their feelings. Now, Carrie Johnson has been praised for being so open about this. And we've talked about the fact that people in the public eye talking about it has helped to break down taboos. But of course, it is the fact that not everybody wants to talk about themselves in this situation. I mean, if someone who's listening thinks, you know, I've had a miscarriage and I just,

I don't want to discuss it. I perhaps don't want to tell anybody at all, apart from maybe my partner or my doctor about it. I mean, that's OK, too, right? Of course, it's OK. Everyone has their own feelings and their own ways of dealing with stuff. And one of the things that's so interesting is that we find that in our particularly in our online forum, there are lots of people who join the forum and never, ever post. It's just helpful for them to read what other people are saying because it makes them feel less alone. Absolutely. I can totally understand that. I wonder, there has been some criticism of celebrities who've spoken out after miscarriage. I mean, that must be particularly difficult for them having spoken

out. What is your advice to people perhaps in the public eye who feel that they might be able to contribute to this debate? I think it's wise for them to think carefully about what will happen when they say or talk about whatever it is. There will be a huge number of women and men who will offer kindness and comfort and support and say helpful things and be grateful to them. But there will always be people who are critical. And I think that's what comes of being a high profile person. It's one of the risks that you take, whatever you talk about. It's tough. And finally, Ruth, do you think that this term rainbow baby is going to catch on?

Do you think we'll all know what it means quite soon? Well, I know it's already caught on with an awful lot of people and perhaps as a result of you talking about it this morning, far more people will know about it and go off thinking about it. Well, Ruth Bender-Attick from the Miscarriage Association, thank you very much indeed for talking to us today. Now, as you might already know, at the end of August, we're going to be running our annual Listener Week,

where every item, discussion and interview is suggested by you. Now, we've already had loads of fantastic suggestions so far, but if you haven't sent one in, there is still time. You can email us via the website, put a comment on Instagram or send us a message on Twitter. And on social media, it is at BBC Women's Hour. You can also text us on 84844 and texts will be charged at your standard message rate.

And if you don't mind one of the team giving you a call, then please do leave us your number as well. Now, most people experience problems with sleep at some point in their life. In fact, it's thought that a third of us will have episodes of insomnia at some stage. It can be caused by physical conditions, psychological conditions such as depression or anxiety or a combination of both. Research by the University of Southampton has found that women are far more affected than men and the proportion of women losing sleep over worry during the pandemic has risen. Well journalist and author Miranda Levy's new book is called The Insomniac Diaries. She describes it as a self-help memoir looking at eight and a half years of disabling insomnia

and the dark places that it took her to before she recovered. And last year, TV and radio presenter Daisy Maskell became Britain's youngest radio DJ to host her own breakfast show on Kiss Fresh. The BBC documentary that she has made, Insomnia and Me, will be available from August the 10th. Well, Daisy and Miranda join me now. Miranda, let's start by defining what we mean by insomnia. I think it's an important place to start because so many of us have problems sleeping now and again, when does it become insomnia? Well, insomnia, it's actually a spectrum of things. So it can cover difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep.

So if you wake up in the night, but there's nothing external keeping you awake, you know, like a loud music or something like that. But particularly a signal of it is if you're not refreshed the next day, you know, you're impaired, you're impaired with what you're doing, it's distressing. And it becomes known as chronic insomnia, when you have these problems for three days a week for a period of three months or more. Right, that's quite clear. Now, you know, you describe in your book this decade long almost battle you had with insomnia as a train wreck in slow motion. I mean, I said it took you to some dark places. That really isn't an understatement. Can you explain to us just a

little bit about what happened? Yeah, well, I mean, my insomnia, this particular long period, and it was a long period without any respite, was triggered by something very concrete. It was triggered by the end of my marriage. So I think as many people who've had an upsetting event in their lives, obviously, you're worried you might sleep, miss a few nights sleep, maybe even longer than that. But what happened with me? I mean, there were two things that are, I think, interrelated. One is that the insomnia took on a life of its own. So it was beyond like an acute period of being upset about something. But something which maybe you want to talk about more a bit later is that I was given medication very early on and continued on it I call it in my book my psychiatric safari and my reaction to these pills being on them and coming off them possibly inappropriately in both senses really made everything worse than it might otherwise have been and you did really you know you did really struggle you went through you had

to go through rehab and I mean it sounds like you really had a terribly tough time. It was terrible. It was devastating. It destroyed my life. You know, after two, I was a magazine editor. After two weeks, I was put on sick leave and I pretty much didn't go back to work for another eight years. I had problems with my family. Thank God that's all much better now. I couldn't, I isolated totally. I was agoraphobic. At one point, I didn't go outside for three years. I mean, unless it was a doctor's appointment or something. So it totally destroyed my life. Daisy, can I come to you?

Because you first realised at the age of nine that you didn't sleep like other people. And I think very often we think of insomnia as something that happens to to people to women as they get older but it started for you very early. Yes it did so I think the earliest memories of I I have of me living with insomnia is around the age of nine and I think for me I first recognized those signs because I would go over to sleepovers at friends houses and I would wake up at three in the morning I would also before I'd go to school in the morning I'd everyone else would sort of wake up at seven or eight I'd be waking up at

three and watching three or four films before I'd get ready for school so I sort of knew that my routine was very different to others other children who were a similar age as I was so I knew that there was something wrong around that time. Daisy can I ask you were you exhausted if you were awake all night watching movies did you feel tired in the day? Yes absolutely but I think that the physical and the mental side effects of living with insomnia. They didn't present themselves until I was a little bit older. So until I entered that teenage stage, and I think that was probably because when I was younger, you have more time to catch up on sleep. So on weekends, whereas as I got older, and as I had more pressures and more stresses and more commitments

in my life, I found that it was very difficult to find time to almost catch up on my sleep. And so I was going days and days, weeks and weeks on end without managing to catch a break, which is when you really experience some of those really scary, dark places that you can find yourself slipping into. And I wonder how it felt for you when you were you know very especially when you were very young and you're awake and you're on your own because I think all of us who ever have trouble getting to sleep know that it can be very lonely and a little bit strange in the middle of the night how did that feel for you I think the the thing is with insomnia one of the hardest things that I experience is the fact that when you really are suffering, there is no one around to see you at your worst.

And so it can be very difficult to explain what it is that's going on when you're out of one of those episodes and when you're dealing with the side effects the following morning. But equally, because of the time that insomnia presents itself in the middle of the night, thoughts and feelings and fears are just amplified and so it's very very difficult to sort of compartmentalize and battle through any issues that you may be feeling or any any things that you may be struggling with in your waking life because they're amplified and there is no one around to talk to so for sure I remember sort of sitting up feeling scared not knowing what was going on and for a large proportion of my life, I've always felt as though I was broken in some way that, you know, everyone had this ability to put their head on their pillow and fall asleep easily. And that is something that I was just unable to do. And that's so frustrating.

Miranda, we're getting a lot, as you might imagine, of interaction here from Twitter on this. Lots of people are telling us about their own sleep problems. But one person has tweeted in to say, when you're physically tired, you sleep. Presumably that just was not your experience. It really wasn't. No, I couldn't. It's almost like my body had forgotten how to shut down. It was almost like, you know, the physiological process that makes you fall asleep that had just gone. I didn't get sleepy. I was just exhausted on a total 24 hour spectrum, if that makes any sense to anybody.

I mean, I hope nobody has to go through this because it's it's almost beyond description, really. You were prescribed sleeping pills and tranquilizers. That didn't work for you, did it? No. So, I mean, I went to my GP after a couple of days because, I mean, the first night I think I slept two hours and 30 minutes. My GP, he didn't even look up up he kind of wrote a prescription for it was it's temazepam which actually they don't really prescribe much anymore so my GP actually did the right thing he stopped prescribing after a couple of weeks but because I still wasn't sleeping I was in touch with my doctor and then I got referred eventually to a psychiatrist after about eight weeks and

that's when it really started so I was given another they're called benzodiazepines this type of tranquilizer so I was given something called clonazepam which is related to valium and then you know that didn't really work or if it worked bit, it stopped working after a while. So then my doctor, next time he upped it, doubled it, then he upped it again over the phone. Over the years, different things were added in, different antidepressants on, off, in, out, antipsychotics. I was just a bundle of labels and diagnoses and drugs, and it really got messy.

And in the end, you know know possibly my insomnia would have resolved itself but then I started off you know getting withdrawal effects and you know even withdrawals in between doses and you know the drugs themselves have terrible side effects you know lack of concentration numbing of emotions the agoraphobia I mentioned was possibly to do with those. So then, yes, I ended up in rehab and then things kind of got worse because I was taken off them too quickly. Right. So really, I know that the subtitle of your book is actually How I Learned to Sleep Again. So after having gone through such a terribly difficult time, there is actually quite a lot of positivity in this book, because you've got some interesting

lessons to share with us. I think so. I mean, number one is, you know, if you just to finish off with the pills, I mean, if you're on them, you mustn't come off them without talking to your doctor. Yeah, I think it is very important to say that you need to consult your doctor. Anybody who's listening to this who's on medication is really important. Really important. But beyond that, so I think after a few years of coming off them,

I organically started to recover a bit. So I was sleeping a couple of hours a night, but that was all. But then I was able to start, you know, following techniques that could help me so um for example um and I know Daisy mentioned this in her documentary actually it's something called CBTI cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia so it's a way of dealing with behaviors and thoughts so just to concentrate on that for a minute, it's things like routines. You know, you start with your early morning getting up time. You go for a walk in the morning. You know, the morning light helps with, you know, the regulation of your circadian rhythm, your sleep clock.

But it's also it's about how you talk to yourself. So if you've had a bad night's sleep, you don't say it's a disaster. I'm never going to sleep again. You say, OK, I've had a bad night. I'm a good sleeper. It's about taking the pressure off, not turning your bedroom into a battleground. And that helps me to this day if I'm having even a normal person bad night. Daisy, I wonder what you think of that advice. And also, I think that you discovered why it was that you couldn't sleep. Did that help?

Yes, absolutely. I think for me in particular, the CBTI that we explored in the documentary is something I still continue today. And I've seen some really, really positive effects and some incredible benefits since undergoing that. Sort of tracking my sleep through a sleep diary and sticking to routine and trying to practice good sleep hygiene but equally for me I always I guess I always assumed that my insomnia started from a trigger that was earlier on in my childhood because it presented itself from the age of nine years old. And actually finding out what that trigger was, was really beneficial and has been really beneficial.

Now that trigger we discovered was the breakdown of my parents' relationship and the trials and tribulations of sort of going through that. And once that was identified, it really helped me to actually go through talking therapy and speak to a therapist to move past some of that trauma I think that's what's so fascinating we did um some neurotherapy in the documentary which was essentially a brain scan and it was fascinating to see that you do carry through you know the same brain throughout different stages in your life and it's fascinating to see the history of your brain and and how trauma if it's not dealt with um can present itself in different ways later on in life and

that's definitely something that showed up on my brain scan and it's something that i believe has induced my insomnia and is the reason why i've suffered for such a long time so the cbti the sleep um the sleep tracking is really, really beneficial. But the talking therapy, me speaking to a therapist to try and move on from previous trauma has been really beneficial too. Now, you've both been through

very severe insomnia. So I want to ask you about something that, you know, sort of most people who have less severe insomnia think about, you know, things like lavender candles by your bed, little routines before you go to bed and not using your mobile phone or screens in your room, that kind of thing. Do those, chamomile tea, you know, all those things, do you think that they help?

Is it a little bit pointless or, you know, do some of those small things help get a good night's sleep, Daisy? Miranda, I feel like we're about to have the exact same answer on this one i i cannot tell you how many times i've through all different you know fads and purchasing all different products to try and help me get a good night's sleep for me personally um none of those have worked for my insomnia although that is you know that's obviously different for everyone. But I think for me, the only benefit I see in those sort of products is to create a calming environment. I haven't found that they've helped solved my insomnia or helped me get a better night's sleep. But I think, as you said, Miranda, when you walk into your bedroom at night, my bedroom in the day, I really enjoy being in there.

You know, it's my creative creative space it's my safe space but in the night time as soon as it gets dark it turns into a really scary place that is full of pressure um but to keep me in my room I will light candles you know I'll um spray my room with a nice smelling scent to to sort of to to encourage me to stay in there for longer but in in terms of solving my sleep issues, I haven't seen too much benefit from those sort of products. Daisy, you talked about your struggles with insomnia on your Instagram account. How did people respond? It was really surprising. I think it was really sad because I think it's one of those things until you see someone else speaking out about it. I think a lot of people felt as though they didn't feel validated um they didn't have a voice I certainly

me sort of making this documentary it came about through a very natural process I never thought that it would be a topic of conversation I never thought that there were people out there just like me that were suffering with exactly the same thing and so it was amazing to speak out on social media. I guess that's, you know, the power of social media, connecting people and uniting people together to see the amount of responses that I received and to see the community that is actually out there of people that are seemingly suffering in silence. There is a lot of stigma attached to sleep-related disorders and insomnia, and a lot of people that suffer do not feel validated. And I think that comes from, you know, the workplace.

It comes from friends and family and also GPs as well. I've been to the GP many times, and if they're not prescribing medication, they're often blaming factors in your waking life. So they ask you to cut out caffeine, you know, especially as a young person they ask to limit screen time to not have a tv in your bedroom they'll you know ask questions about my lifestyle if i'm young if i'm you know going out too often or if i'm drinking alcohol you often

feel like you're being blamed um and that's obviously not the case i feel like we don't do that with any other you know mental health, anyone else that's suffering with any other mental health challenge. We don't blame anyone that's going to the GP is looking for validation. And I just don't think that that's out there. Miranda, insomnia is a perennial issue for midlife women. But as those figures that I mentioned earlier show, COVID has exacerbated this and more for women than it is for men. Why do you think that is? Well, I mean, a lot of the reasons for women suffering more insomnia in general, particularly in this age group, is some of it to do with hormonal changes of the menopause, but also just to do with family stress. I mean, it often seems that women are the ones who, you know,

they're dealing with younger children, school age children, you know, maybe older parents and working. So in the pandemic, what happened? I mean, we were meant to be working from home, homeschooling, you know, cleaning the house, just keeping everything going. And obviously, it's not, you know, the same for everybody. And a lot of, you know, partners pull their weight, of course. But I think in this period, certainly anecdotally, most of the women I know were working longer days and having to, you know, to do the rest of the stuff as well. Miranda, how are you sleeping now? Well, well, good. I would say I average six or seven hours a night. The other day, I think I did an eighter

and I practically did a victory lap around my bedroom. Well, that's really good to hear. Thank you very much indeed, both of you, Daisy and Miranda, for joining us. And there is a link on the Women's Hour website to the NHS page that talks about insomnia. One of the things it does say is that you should contact your GP if changing your sleeping habits hasn't worked, if you have had trouble sleeping

for months or if insomnia is affecting your daily life in a way that makes it hard for you to cope. Well, the Insomnia Diaries by Miranda Levy are out now and Daisy Maskell, Insomnia and Me is available from August the 10th on BBC3. Now, are vaccine passports rather gendered? My next guest thinks that they are. Dr Claire Wenham is Assistant Professor of Global Health Policy at London School of Economics and she believes that introducing them will limit women's opportunities and further entrench issues of inequality that have been exacerbated by the pandemic. And Claire joins me now. Claire, we talked on this programme actually last year about research into the how the pandemic was disproportionately affecting women negatively in terms of domestic workload,

you know, homeschooling, falling more heavily on women, etc. I think many people felt instinctively that they understood those issues, even without the empirical evidence that you were involved in. But it seems less clear to me why vaccine passports are bad for women. Can you explain? Absolutely. And I think, you know, we know that with all policy, all policies have differential effects on different parts of society. And often policy affects women differently to men.

Now, in terms of introducing vaccine passports or vaccine certificates, I think there's many ways where women may be disadvantaged more than men. So, for example, we know that children currently aren't being vaccinated and we know that the lion's share of childcare in the UK falls on to women. Now, if, for example, to go into a restaurant, to go into a shop, you all have to be vaccinated and that then might exclude children. Now, we don't know. Maybe I'll be exempt. We don't yet know. But if children are excluded from public spaces, then the people who look after them by default are also excluded from the public places. And we know that's more likely to be women than men. We also know that there are some women who are more. Well, there's early evidence showing that women are slightly more hesitant than men to get vaccinated.

Now, that's obviously something that we should be working on and trying to encourage vaccination across our society. But if there are significant differences between who's getting vaccinated. Claire, do we know why that is? Do we know why women are more vaccine hesitant than men? We don't know that yet. We think there might be something to do with they might be researching more than men. They might be considering it more than men. We know, for example, that actually the statistics that are coming out around pregnant women and vaccination are really stark. So I'm sure you heard about it last week, there's only been 51,000 women double vaccinated in the UK who are pregnant. Now that's out of what 600,000 women a year. So it's, you know, less than 10%

of pregnant women are vaccinated. So those people are going to not be able to participate in public life if vaccination passports are required. Now, obviously, you know, we should be trying to encourage people to get vaccinated so it doesn't become an issue. But in the interim, if women, for example, feel unsafe or don't want to get it, then they are going to be further excluded. And we also know that, you know, there's many reasons why people choose not to get vaccinated. And it's normally the most marginalized in society. And so we're going to see differential between, you know, who's going to get vaccinated and who doesn't have the trust in government, doesn't have the trust in science, or simply can't get to a vaccine appointment. We're seeing some

really interesting stuff coming out about women not being able to go to get vaccinated because they can't get childcare, for example, can't afford childcare. In the US, they're doing interesting things like giving free childcare vouchers out to people to go and get vaccinated. So it's, you know, thinking of ways that it might not be women per se who are hesitant. There might be barriers to actually women getting to an appointment, for example. So you think that really we could be doing more to encourage women to be taking up the vaccine, in terms of practical things like childcare for women who are struggling to get to a vaccination centre?

Absolutely. I mean, I think there are some people who don't want to get vaccinated, but there are also people who simply can't get vaccinated because they can't make it work with their working hours, with their childcare hours, with physically getting to a centre. You know, we could be thinking more proactively around how to overcome those more structural barriers to get women to be vaccinated. But even so, even if you have all this, you're then going to have this, you're still going to have a division in your society around who's in public spaces and who's not if you

introduce vaccine passports. And my fear is they're going to lend themselves to, you know, more, you know, white male public spaces than should be representative of our society. Claire, as I said, we talked before about how the pandemic has exacerbated some of the negative impacts of inequality for women. Do you think that when we're talking about vaccine passports, generally we're talking about the practicalities of them? You know, should they be digital? Where should they be used? Are we just not looking at the impact on women? I think that's exactly right. I think, you know, we haven't had these, well,

certainly there's been no public conversation about how these might affect women or how these might affect different sectors of society. I think so far the conversation has been really focused on the kind of civil liberties aspect and kind of appealing to libertarians and not actually thinking about the practicalities around, well, if we do introduce this, how is it going to affect different people across our society? Now, the only thing I would around, well, if we do introduce this, how is it going to affect different people across our society? Now, the only thing I would say, though, is the corollary of all of this is we've known throughout this pandemic that women have been disproportionately employed in jobs on the front line. They're more likely to work in retail, in hospitality. And so, you know,

the flip side of this whole argument that vaccine passports might have effects, you know, negative effects for women in society is that it might protect those women more, those women who are on the front lines, if actually you are not allowing people who are at greater risk of having that infection coming into where you're working, for example. So I know that you've been really involved in this and you've been looking at all the aspects of it and trying to weigh up. But it's not it's clearly not a very it's not it's not a simple proposition. Overall, what are your thoughts at the moment on whether you think that vaccine passports at all are a good idea?

So I think we shouldn't be ever limiting people's public participation in life by their health status. We've seen really dangerous ways this has been done before in history, such as with HIV, with HIV positive people not being able to go into certain places, not being able to go into certain countries. And I think it is discriminatory. And I think on balance, we have to, rather than try and penalise those who aren't able or aren't willing to get vaccinated, I think a much better policy is trying to understand why they're not and trying to overcome those barriers rather than simply penalising them

or trying to nudge them into doing something, but really understand the drivers of why people aren't getting vaccinated and trying to increase their vaccination rate. You look at global health and I wonder about the global impact here because, of course, in the developing world, we are seeing that an awful lot of countries are just not going to be able to roll out the jab. And yet, you know, we've got, I don't know, Israel is already giving second jabs to over 60s, I think, booster jabs rather, which would be a third jab, in fact. are we going to see an inequality in allowing people to possibly move around the world, which is going to create more economic inequality?

Absolutely. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. You know, there's plenty of people around the world who aren't going to get their first vaccination until 2022, 2023, maybe even 2024. And so they're going to be limited in their ability to travel. If, for example, vaccine passports become commonplace and you have to have a certification to be able to enter a country, that's going to basically limit it to people who are from countries that have had good vaccination programs. And now that's not just dependent on you as an individual, that's dependent

on what your government has been able to procure, how've been able to distribute it and so you know when I hear people saying oh but you know people in in lower middle income countries don't have the money to travel anyway I think that's a false argument I think you know even business people people who can afford to travel are going to be limited by the fact that these vaccination programs are being done nationally and if they're simply you know there's plenty of countries around the world who've barely vaccinated only a couple of percent of their population so far and so we're going to see these vast um discrepancies emerge globally and these are going to have long-term economic effects because these countries won't be able to you know re-return to global capital flows and global you know economic cycles at the same rate as the most developed

countries in our world at the moment. Claire, just one last question. What is your message then to those here in Britain who are looking at vaccine passports at the moment? What would you say to them as the best way that you can think of to make sure that they are they are as equal as possible. So I think we have to I think there's two things. I think, first of all, we have to really consider whether we want to bring these in and whether we want to live in a society that aren't that aren't regulating these. Because one thing is, is the government bringing them in? But the second part is, well, if private industry, for example, brings them in, if a pub chain brings them in, should the government be regulating against that so that we don't create these micro societies or microcosms of what's going on globally? And then really get to the bottom of, well, why do we need to have these?

We need to have these because some people in our communities aren't being vaccinated. How can we try and engage with those people who aren't willing to get vaccinated, aren't able to get vaccinated, simply can't make an appointment and try and speak to them and get those vaccinated. At which point you've then got your whole population vaccinated. And then these passports are superfluous. Dr. Claire Wenham from the London School of Economics, as ever, thank you very much indeed for joining us. Now a British saxophonist and composer, DJ and band leader, Nubea Garcia has just been nominated for a Mercury Prize. She is one of the brightest of a new generation of jazz talent, drawing comparisons with the greats such as Sonny Rollins and Dexter Gordon. And she's been named a major voice by the New York Times. She's also making her

proms debut later this month performing music from her album Source and I'm delighted to say that she joins me now in the studio. It's not often we get people in the studio so it's an absolute double pleasure to have you today. Congratulations first of all for the nomination for the Mercury Prize.

Your debut album has had outstanding reviews. It's been a Rolling Stones album of the month. Just tell me how you describe your sound. Oh, how do I describe my sound? First of all, hello. Pleasure to be here. How do I describe my sound?

I think that's a really difficult question, actually, because... I'm sorry to start with such a hard one. Because, like, sound is so different to everyone for me um I would say that as you said I've been hugely influenced by Sonny Rollins and Dexter Gordon and John Coltrane and they have such huge very very different sounds that I think when I was a teenager um transcribing what they, I was definitely trying to emulate them. And that's grown into me, basically. I think me bringing more of myself into the music.

So I don't know if that answers the question, but everyone will hear a bit of someone different, I assume. Well, let's do just that. Let's hear a little clip of Source. Now, one critic called this album a life's worth of experiences in an hour-long listen. Your heritage, your mixed heritages are all in there. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Sure, yes.

So I am from Guyana and Trinidad. My mum's Guyanese and my dad is Trini. And I think growing up in the UK as a young black woman, I've always been very curious about, you know, my culture, how I can kind of dig into that deeper. We used to go to Trinidad when I was a kid. So I was able to go to Carnival over there and obviously Carnival over here. And I think I've always been so, yeah, involved in trying to figure out who I am within my own family's traditions.

I think I use that as a source of inspiration, I guess. Excuse the pun. But it's a part of why I love music. Growing up with a lot of music at home. You had classical musical influences as well from your mum, right? I did, definitely. Not that maybe you would hear it in my music, but I did start on the violin very, very young.

And, yeah, my mum loved classical music. My eldest sister is a classical singer, so I definitely grew up playing in orchestras and going to lots of concerts, and that was, you know, the proms as well. So what made you pick up the saxophone um so my mum tells me that i i was quite young i was like 10 um she said that i asked for one but i honestly have no recollection because my first meeting of the saxophone was you know it was a surprise it was like okay go check in there. We've got a surprise for you.

And it was a saxophone. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And this is after like six years of battling with the violin. Yeah, I was really, in my mind, it was a huge surprise and a very welcome, like, oh, my gosh, finally, something that really feels good to me when I'm playing it, even as a like complete beginner, obviously. And do you consider yourself to be a jazz musician?

Another big question. I think yes, because I'm honoured to be in that line of the tradition of jazz, of the jazz idiom. However, I think I struggle with the term sometimes because of how people view it and the limited view that people make around it. Like this is the type of music that you play. I don't like it or I do like it. And anything outside of that is jazz or isn't jazz or whatever. I think it's it's completely subjective, to be honest. I am a jazz musician because I love jazz music and also I love to improvise, which is at the core of the music. However, yeah, I just like to say that I have so many other influences and they all work together to make, you know, my sound. And tell me how important the oral tradition is to you massively I think I grew up hearing a lot of stories from my parents and from my mum about you know her growing up in

Guyana and stuff and you know finding out about you know my dad's side of the family my grandparents and I think it's such a it's it's such a huge part of black culture to pass down stories and music folk songs traditions all of that through the oral tradition and that's also such a massive part of jazz you know yeah so it's it's hugely important to me and I I hope to add to that, I guess, if I can. Now, one of the songs on the album is called Stand With Each Other. And it's a celebration of women's solidarity. I'd like just to play a little bit of that, if we can right now. bass solo guitar solo So tell me a little bit about the inspiration behind that piece. So I went to a poetry reading with Aja Minet, who's an amazing amazing poet from america and at the end of the reading she was taking q and a's and there was this beautiful thing that she said um

about how we all need to stand with each other stand together so that each group of people don't feel like they're fighting their fight um alone you know that we can stand with each other and support each other so that you know we're all stronger basically um and that really stuck with me I think I've I've definitely thought about that before but hearing it from someone else and being in a room of really wonderful empowering people I just yeah it stayed with me and has continued I think that was like three or four years ago and I just really it really struck a chord and I was like I really think that we all could learn so much and do so much by being there for each other. Well, that's wonderful. And congratulations on taking part in the proms. You're going to be appearing on the BBC proms on Wednesday, the 18th of August at

7.30. The concert will take place in the Royal Albert Hall and it will be broadcast as part of the BBC proms coverage. And that's all we've got time for today. Thank you very much indeed for listening. Emma's back tomorrow. That's all for today got time for today. Thank you very much indeed for listening. Emma's back tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Pandora Sykes. And just before you go, I wanted to tell you about a new podcast, Pieces of Britney, my attempt to piece together the life of Britney Spears and the forces that have forged it. A huge fan. Yeah, absolutely. A fan of not just the performer, but the person. I think that a lot of people were rooting for Britney to fail

and there's this sort of assumption of, you know, this is what you wanted, this is what you're going to get. In this eight-part series for BBC Radio 4, I've spoken to cultural thinkers, lawyers, psychologists and key players in the entertainment industry to get their perspective on Britney's remarkable story and enduring legacy. I used her as an example of somebody who really got what was required to do that kind of work.

We're also using drama to help us look behind the headlines and the conflicting accounts to imagine the woman underneath. Join me for Pieces of Britney. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.