Woman's Hour - Scientist Maggie Aderin-Pocock, Statues of women, Foreign aid cuts, Non-hormonal menopause pill

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

The government has revealed details of its plans to cut foreign aid, with support for women's health and children's education in Africa facing the biggest reductions. Nuala McGovern gets reaction from Hannah Bond, co-CEO of Action Aid UK and Lisa Wise, Director of Global Policy at Save the Children UK. There are still more statues of men called John than of women in the UK. But this imbalance is being redressed, mainly thanks to local campaigns to memorialise more female figures. A new book, London’s Statues of Women, documents all the current statues of, or to, women in the capital. Its author Juliet Rix joins Nuala along with Anya Pearson from Visible Women UK and Joy Battick who has been immortalised herself in bronze not once, but twice. The MHRA, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency in the UK, has become the first global regulator to be given the green light when it comes to a new non-hormonal pill designed to alleviate menopausal symptoms in women who cannot, or do not wish to, take HRT. To find out about the drug and its benefits, Nuala is joined by Dr. Paula Briggs, Consultant in Sexual & Reproductive Health at Liverpool Women’s Hospital and Chief Investigator in the UK for Oasis 4, a clinical trial of Elinzanetant in breast cancer patients. Scientist and broadcaster, Dame Maggie Aderin-Pocock presents a new season of BBC podcasts,13 Minutes Presents: The Space Shuttle, which charts the story of some the world’s biggest and boldest journeys into space. In the 1970s, Nasa launched the Space Shuttle programme, which became a gamechanger for women, by expanding America’s astronaut programme to include black, Asian and female astronauts and changing the work culture. Star Trek actor, Nichelle Nichols, who played Lt Uluru, became the face of the recruitment programme. Maggie joins Nuala to discuss the new series and her love of space.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Good morning. Maybe some of you are a little bleary eyed today after a very late, but amazing finish by England's Lionesses. Well, they pulled it off against Italy in the Euro Semi-Final. Some might have not kept the faith,

but let us see what Sunday brings with that final of the UEFA European Women's Championships. We don't know. Will England be facing Spain or Germany? It is all about to be found out. We'll chat about it on Monday, no doubt. But let's go on to today's program. We have the scientist Dame Maggie Aldrin Pocock on the Space Shuttle program. It's a sci-fi dream that changed space flight forever for women in space. It was called a game changer. So too has a new non-hormonal pill to target hot flushes and night

sweats due to the menopause. We're going to have Dr Paula Briggs to talk us through that. Plus I'm really looking forward to chatting to three women about female statues. Since 2021, more statues of women have been erected in London than in the whole second half of the 20th century. What about that stat? Recent editions include mathematician Ada Lovelace and Queen Elizabeth II. But who is missing? Let me know who you think should be immortalized in this way. It can be a famous woman or someone you know who just deserves us. I need you to tell me why. You can text the program the number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC tell me why. You can text the program the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC woman's hour you can email us through

the website or indeed whatsapp or message or a voice note that number is 03 700 100 444. But let me begin with a story that you will have seen in the headlines that the government has revealed details of its plans to cut foreign aid. A foreign office report and impact assessment showed the biggest costs this year will affect Africa and they don't specify which countries. This means less will be spent on women's health and water sanitation with increased risks it says of disease and death. The government had said in February it would cut foreign aid spending by 40% from 0.5% of gross national income to 0.3% and then to increase defence spending to

2.5% after pressure from the United States that no doubt you will have heard about. International NGOs say it will be women and children in the most marginalised communities that will pay the highest price for these changes. To discuss the impact of the cuts I'm joined by Hannah Bond, co-CEO of ActionAge UK, which is an international charity working with women and girls living in poverty. We also have Lisa Wise, Director of Global Policy at Save the Children UK, another charity whose goal it is to improve the lives of children worldwide. Welcome to you both. Let me get a quick reaction from both of you. Hannah, you first. Thanks so much for having me on this morning. The cuts are obviously hugely devastating for

women and girls' lives. For example, we already know that there are roughly 122 million girls out of school. These kind of cuts will increase that number dramatically. That doesn't only have an impact on girls being able to go to school now, it has an impact on girls being able to go to work in the future, to be able to organise, to be able to resist the rollback on their rights. And is this, sorry forgive me for stepping on you Hannah, but is this specifically the numbers you quote referring to the continent of Africa? This is around the world that's a UNICEF figure. Okay, sorry continue. That's okay don't worry. So that will have an impact on girls' rights, girls' ability

as they get older to organise and to resist that kind of rollback. And we see that rollback already, for example, on sexual and reproductive health and rights. The government, through their equality impact assessment that was released yesterday, their own equality impact assessment, said that there will be cuts. And I have a feeling, I think Hannah's line might have just gone down there. Let me cross over to Lisa for a moment as we reconnect with Hannah. Lisa, your reaction, your first reaction when you heard some of the detail? Well I think we already knew obviously that the aid cuts were coming from the announcement back in February but that doesn't take away from that feeling of immense shock and sadness when we see

the detail and the real impact this is going to have, particularly on women and girls across the world. Earlier in the year the Foreign Secretary actually denied that the aid cuts might cost lives, but yesterday we saw, as Hannah was saying in its own equalities impact assessment that it will cost lives. They've admitted the truth. Women and girls will be denied access to those fundamental services of critical life-saving care and as Hannah was saying there's all important programs which really boost girls confidence and morale, enable them to fulfill their rights that we're all entitled to. We did request a statement from the Foreign Office we've yet to hear back. The government has said as you

will have seen as will Hannah that the cuts follow a line-by-line strategic review of aid by Baroness Chapman, Minister for Development, which focused on prioritisation, efficiency, protecting planned humanitarian support and live contracts while ensuring responsible exit from programming where necessary and also they talk about the taxpayer every pound working harder for the UK taxpayer when they help people around the world. Your response to that Hannah? I'm not sure that you can responsibly exit a program that is already delivering and largely is

already successful. So, for example, the Equality Impact Assessment that I was referring to before includes a reduction to, I think it's funding to 55 women's rights organisations. Those organisations will be working on peace building, they'll be working on gender-based violence. It isn't, you aren't able to responsibly exit with that kind of funding when those organizations are, as I said before, resisting the rollback on their rights, they're pushing for peace, they're pushing for change and it just is irresponsible, there's nothing responsible about cutting that kind of funding that as Lisa was saying is vital to women and girls rights. You know there is an argument Lisa, I was

reading one letter that was in the Financial Times by the Zimbabwean Health Minister and he talks about for example creating new partnerships. In a way you could interpret it as the cutting of aid leading to other forms of support, making vulnerable countries more independent or self-sufficient in the long term, less dependent on foreign aid. What would you say to that? I think that it is a diversion tactic to divert attention from the irresponsibility of these cuts in the long term. Yes, we do need new forms of partnership and those partnerships need to be respectful, but there's nothing respectful about these kinds of cuts that are happening according

to these kinds of time scales. And I think that this particularly affects women and girls and those organizations that are supporting them. And in countries where we don't have established norms around gender equality and girls' rights, this kind of support from countries like the UK that really champion the rights of women and girls is just absolutely critical. Nobody's going to come in and fill those critical gaps. So yes, we need a new approach to international development, to international cooperation that's rooted in

respectful partnerships. But we have to build that together and just withdrawing support from some of the world's most vulnerable children, particularly women and girls, is just not the way to go about it. So with children, what are you seeing? Give me a tangible aspect or program that you feel could be affected by these announcements? Well, we're seeing already the impacts of the US aid cuts on some of the programs in the countries that we work, say the children around the world. And so we can take that forward and just imagine the kinds of impacts that these cuts from the UK government are going to have. And it's just deeply saddening that the UK has opted to follow suit when we're already

seeing those damaging impacts. So, for example, I've just got a colleague who just returned from Rwanda, where there's a hospital that's really working with very vulnerable women, pregnant women, to make sure that they have the care that they need, that they're free from the violence that women experience so often, and that they have that life-saving care during childbirth. experience so often and that they have that life-saving care during childbirth. We've seen maternal mortality rates a bit, they're stubbornly high and this is only going to cause increased deaths in childbirth. So my colleague was sharing with me that when she was there, she witnessed a woman with postpartum psychosis

and one psychiatric nurse there had a caseload of over 300 women already and obviously women living in a refugee camp they come with trauma and that could be exacerbated by the birth that they're going through and so these are these are lives these individual women that are receiving that kind of support. So forgive me I just want to hit on as many points as we can in our time together. So that's an example there Hannah that we see from Lisa But the government did announce in February that it would be cutting foreign aid spending by 40% And I'm wondering and we also heard about and USAID for example that that reduction Which has been in the news for a number of months since Donald Trump came to power in the States What plans?

How'd your organization made in light of that knowledge? plans had your organisation made in light of that knowledge? It's very difficult to make plans with an almost 50% cut to budgets, but unfortunately that is what we have had to do. So we've had difficult conversations across our Federation and with partner organisations about what that might mean. We have looked for other sources of funding, but as Lisa was saying, you can't really plug that gap. So, you know, I think for us, one of the really major things that we are considering and planning for is, you know, as you started the program talking about the forced starvation in Gaza, we are now having to look at whether there will be cuts to programs there and you know, we support a maternity hospital, for example, in Gaza that has already

felt the impact of the devastating bombing and the relentless bombing across Gaza. And so having to have those conversations and think about where else can we find that funding? How can we support those organizations during that kind of mass starvation? And I think, you know, the horrible irony of this is that these cuts, as you were saying, were announced in February in order to fund tanks and to fund defense spending. And I think that that is a huge concern, on the one hand we're increasing defence spending and Some of that defence spending will go to parts that are then being used To to bond the very services that we are providing And of course you've talked there about Gaza, which is people hold very strong opinions on both sides

You will our listeners may have heard on the From on our news or indeed seen on the website That more than a hundred aid agencies have warned today that mass starvation is spreading across Gaza Israel says crucial supplies are waiting in Gaza ready to be delivered to Palestinians and the aid agencies do not dispute that there is undistributed aid inside Gaza. In their statement they say tons of aid critical supplies are waiting just outside Gaza in warehouses and even within Gaza itself but these organizations claim that they've been blocked from accessing or delivering them by the Israeli government restrictions and Israel though says the system run by

Gaza humanitarian foundation since May prevents supplies being stolen by Hamas. If you want to read more about that you can go to the BBC News website we do have a live page covering that specific angle of this story this morning and we'll continue to talk about it. I want to thank both my guests that spent some time with us this morning about how it affects them and the people that they serve. That's Hannah Bond from ActionAge UK and Lisa Wise from Save the Children UK. Now, I've been asking you this morning to send in who do you think should be immortalized in a statue? Couple coming in already. Oh, here's a good one.

Here's a very apt one for this morning. Maybe even in bronze. Lucy Bronze is who they are talking about. Anybody who was up late last night watching The Lionesses may agree. I want to welcome to the studio Juliet Ricks, who is with me. Also, we have Anya Person from Visible Women UK and Joy Batik who's been immortalised in bronze not once but twice. Why do we have these

women in the studio? Because there are still more statues of men called John than women across the UK. The imbalance is being redressed thanks to local campaigners to memorialise more female figures. The new book, this is Julie's book, London's statues of women documents all the current statues of or two women in the capital. Good morning to you all. Good morning. Lovely to have you in. Here's another one that came in. Beatrice Webb, true inspiration for the NHS with husband Sydney and G.B.

Shaw, founded LSE, inspired Bever inspired beverages NHS work 84844. If you want to share your statue, the one that should come into being. And yet, let me start from you, visible women. The clue is in the title of what you're trying to do. Bring these women back into focus. Why does it matter? I get asked this question quite a lot, and I always kind of refer to this great saying, you can't be what you can't see. So it's about the visualization of forgotten women of history really, you know, these

great women that have done fantastic things that have just kind of been, you know, written out of history books. They're not there, you know, so it's kind of putting them back into the narrative. That's the big thing for me. And who was the person for example recently that you felt needed to be highlighted? So in 2019 going through menopause, I blame the menopause, it made me very angry when my daughter asked to go and see the statue of Mary Anning and of course Mary Anning is the Victorian paleontologist that is basically the mother of modern day paleontology. I live in Dorset.

She was born in Lyme Regis, no statue of Mary in Lyme Regis. So very naively, my daughter and I set on this campaign and it ended up turning into this charity and this huge big thing. We raised the statue to Mary in 2022, had a bit of COVID in between, which was, you know, not helpful. But isn't that incredible? Yeah. Like, think of that path from a bit of menopausal rage.

Honest that anger. Exactly. And there you have it. And now our second statue is for Dorchester and it's to the poet and writer and LGBTQ pioneer Sylvia Townsend Warner. You know Dorset, especially Dorchester is synonymous with literary excellence where we talk about Thomas Hardy and William Barnes and the Powys brothers and we've got this incredible incredible female writer that nobody's ever heard of you know so she's going to have a statue unveiled this December on the 14th in the centre of Dorchester so yeah we're really excited. Let me turn to Joy. Oh, your story is fascinating.

You were the first real woman of colour to be made into a statue in London in 1986. Tell us a little bit about that. That sounds so scary to say that. But it's true. It's true, of course. I like the term black female. Yes. It resonates with me a lot for obvious reasons. At the time of doing the first one it was I had no real depth of interest, did I care? No. Some 38 years later, my son wasn't even born then, but now he becomes a 38-year-old man, and he's very much into his history. He just cannot believe

it. Like one statue, not one statue. So let's describe the statue. You're in your 20s, why, you're 26 at that time. You're in your 20s, were you 26 at that time? You're a young black woman. The statue is made down in Brixton on the platform. And it's quite a striking image. I loved it. I mean, I was looking at these statues. What do you feel when you when you see it? I'll just go straight back to 1986 and remember how it was made and how the pieces were coming together.

The reality of it never really dawned on me until we put the second one up. So this is the amazing part of it. They make a second statue of you now and now Joy Two, shall we call her, is looking at Joy 1. So you at this point in your life looking at the younger Joy. That must be quite something to behold. I am more at peace with myself in the second statue. I might just come through cancer and life changes, you know, children, arguments, you know, just frustrations of all different kinds, but I am more at peace with myself.

The first statue was just at the back of the riots, so we were trying to rebuild a community, which was interesting. But the second one, I was happy to be on a platform I mean, I'm not even gonna tell you what used to happen to me at night with the first one Give me an idea Graffiti really lots of different types of romances This is I'm a statue right and I was hidden by a lot of bushes at the end before they put the new one up, tidied me up. But it really is an emblem of history, black history.

Oh yeah. The first one, I didn't understand it as much as I do now. I understand it so much more now through the eyes of the second statue. Which has a glowing smile, I should say, for those that haven't looked at it. Check it out though online. Her name is Joy Batic, B-A-T-T-I-C-K, if people want to take a look online. But Juliet, you have the book and I was reading London Statues of Women that a number of years ago there wasn't enough material to create a book. No it's true. I mean people have, excuse me, sorry, people have said to me, oh my goodness, you know, why hasn't this book been written before? Why wasn't it written 20 or 30 years ago? Well you couldn't have written it 20 or

30 years ago because most of the statues weren't there. For centuries, there were no real women on the streets of London bar queens. And some mythical creatures. Oh, yes. Plenty of mythical creatures, quite a lot of them topless. And that's bizarre because they come from a period of real public prudery, mostly they're Victorian and Edwardian and shortly after that. But as long as they had classical names or classical references, they could get away with pretty much anything. I mean, some of these statues are quite erotic, but by claiming connection to the classics, they

got away with it. So you only really get, it's really only in the 21st century that you start to get proper representation in any numbers of individual women, real individual women. What do you think happened? Is it people, is it menopausal rage across the countries? Yes, I think it partly is actually. I mean, you know, people suddenly began to think about it. I mean, most of us have walked the streets of London, passed statues endlessly. I mean, I know I did. I'm a Londoner through and through. And I'd never thought about it particularly. You know, I would walk through Parliament Square and it didn't really register with

me that it was full of men until Caroline Criado Perez walked through and went, hang on a minute, why isn't there a woman here? And she went out and campaigned and we get Millicent Fawcett and her wonderful statue in Parliament Square. Still outnumbered. Oh, massively outnumbered. I mean, the 21st century has seen a real rebalancing. There's a lot going on.

And it is thanks to groups of women very often campaigning. But quite a lot of statues actually come out of public campaigns, even men's ones. And what's interesting is that even in 2021, a survey by Art UK found that fewer than one in six of London statues commemorating an individual were for women, for individual women. That's only 2021. But even since then, we've actually had more statues of women unveiled than in the whole of the second half of the 20th century. I love that stuff.

So there's quite a lot going on now. Let's read a couple because I threw it out to our listeners and they're always very vocal. Tracy Emin says one. Yep. There we go. A statue of Julia Margaret Cameron would be excellent. A pioneer photographer who is little known. And Stephen, let me see, is the second listener who said, if there isn't a statue to Dr Elise Inglis already already that would be complete travesty an incredible woman. She's a doctor? I believe so. There is a campaign. She will be the first. Oh there's a campaign Stephen.

She's part of our wider group. A couple more. Anna Sewell, the cruel treatment of horses that prevailed in her day prompted her to write Black Beauty, a story told from the viewpoint of a horse. This book raised awareness of horse welfare and became a classic. She was one of the first campaigners against animal cruelty and was way ahead of her time. Queen Victoria however is a bit of an exception, Julia. Queen Victoria is a massive exception. Queen Victoria is the most memorialised, well she's not only the most memorialised woman in London, she is the most memorialised individual in London and the most memorialised individual across the whole country. She was a nightmare from the point of view of the book.

Oh tell me why she was a nightmare first. Well she was a nightmare from the point of view of the book because every time I thought I got them all another one popped up. I don't actually know. There are actually 17 in the book. I don't actually know how many there are throughout the UK. No, no. Not got an exact number. No exactly, I mean even in London, I've got 17 in the book. No, they don't actually know how many there are throughout the UK. No, no. They've not got an exact number. No, exactly.

I mean, even in London, I've got 17 in the book. But they're really interesting also because Bernard Shaw, there was a campaign, one of the art magazines in about 1919, had put a thing out to its readers saying, what's the ugliest statue in London? And then Bernard Shaw came back, not with an individual statue but with a name and he said, and he was a Republican left-wing playwright and he said, what has the poor queen done to deserve being presented as this lumpen woman? And he really defended her. It was quite surprising really. He had quite a lot of admiration for her as an individual. And he talked about, you know, how did she survive the ludicrous upbringing that a girl of her class and time got and went on to be an effective

queen. So this republican was very defensive of the individual, the queen, not of the monarchy, but of the queen herself and these, as he saw it, dreadful statues of her. It's really interesting that she did break the mould, excuse the pun, when there was so few other women that were there. We've talked about a few, Ania, that you are, what would I say, giving birth to these various statues that are coming into bean times. But I also want to talk about another story which came to us. It's the Derry shirtmakers artwork has caused a bit of controversy. It was in Northern Ireland with the women who worked in that factory.

Derry City and Strabane District Council told the BBC it fully engaged with the women who worked in the factories and described it as a fitting tribute. But they were not happy because it was kind of giant spools of thread, I suppose, is how I describe it and not specific women. Yeah. Yeah. So the Friends of the Fracture are the group that support the factory workers. And there was just not that engagement. And again, it's one of those things that, you know, when there is a chance to put the record straight. So when they did the statue for the women during the First and Second World War, it was empty uniforms hanging on pegs. It's a very similar thing with this, where they had a chance to actually put, visualize these women, these incredible women that did this amazing thing for Derry for countless, countless years. The economy, they kept everybody fed and employed. They didn't engage properly and fully. And we've

got three phallic objects that says more about probably the councilmen that made the decisions about it rather than actually speaking to the the women themselves. And of course as I mentioned Derry City and Strabane district councils and they did engage there's more actually a very good BBC Northern Ireland online article if you want to read more about that but to your point Anya a comment comes in women who are in World War Two including this is what they're looking for and when they're looking for more statues, including the women who flew the planes, who were in intelligence, including as spies and who kept the industry moving and so

much more. Although there is a supposed monument to them on Whitehall, there is no women in it, just empty sexless clothing and that is so disappointing, they say. Joy, is there somebody that you would like to see a statue of? Do you think about statues differently as you go through your life? Well, I like jazz. Okay. And I would love to see a statue of Billie Holiday, Ella Fitz, Gerald, Sarah Vaughan, Nina Summer. I'd like to see something like that because musically they

have accomplished. And the Amy Winehouse statue has become so beloved in Camden. Oh that's lovely that statue. Yeah people have a real affinity to it. Very attractive. Julie, go ahead. It's an interesting one because it's not on a pedestal. No it's... And this is a bit of a move. You got it from, there's a sculptor called George Siegel who did Rush Hour just behind Liverpool Street Station which is of a group of people sort of going to work heads down, collars up, but that has fed into statues of famous people as well. So you start to get people that you can engage directly with. And the Amy Winehouse stands in the middle of Camden Market on the ground

at our level. And she was not that tall. No, she's quite small. So actually when there are a lot of people around you can't even see her. But there's something quite nice about that ability to engage with a statue. The new Virginia Woolf, she's the only person, the only other non-royal woman in London who has two statues apart from Joy. But Virginia Woolf is on her new statue in Richmond, is on a bench and you can go and sit next to her. So again, I love those at our levels. Yeah, I love them.

Sylvia's on a bench and we made a very conscious decision that none of our statues were on pedestal. So very interactive. So Mary Anning is very... But you do remind me, we had, I think a couple of items actually, on the Molly Malone statue, which is in Dublin, which is at ground level and always was when I was growing up as well. But she has been, Joy, you talked about the acts that some people were doing on your statue that Molly Malone has particularly been groped her breasts. You know, they kind of got a different color from the rest of her. And there is a young musician, a busker who plays beside her,

who is pushing to put her on a plinth because most of the men are elevated and to elevate her out of harm's way in one way, but also to give her that standing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's something that we, the artist that we work with, Denise Dutton, she's both done the Mary Anning, she's also doing the Sylvia Townsend Warner statue. We just focused on historical costume and kept it because unfortunately these things happen, you know, if you are quite busty, so the dress that Molly Malone wears, you know, it's quite

revealing. But equally the Juliette statue in Verona, she's not revealing and she's been so groped and the originals had to be put into a museum and this is a replica now that they're groping, you know, wearing her out. Has also happened to the bull on Wall Street and I think also Cristiano Ronaldo. Perhaps it's in Portugal, can't remember exactly where that statue is, most probably maybe even, I know he's from Funchal in Madeira. Shall we go through another few that are coming in? It also does depend because Amy Winehouse,

the mark is on her shoulder because people put their arm around her for photographs, which is rather sweet. So I think it depends so much on the statue and where it is. But I do know it's a problem. I mean, I was talking to a curator at English Heritage the other day who looks after a lot of the statues, and she was saying it's a real problem when they're at ground level because you do get,

it doesn't take very many people to do damage. Unless you design into it, so Mary Ann's dog Trey, who's very much part of her story, his head's been double cast because we knew that people... What does that mean? That it's like a thicker? It's a thicker, yeah. So it won't, the shine, or it won't change. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's run through a few. I know I've kept you for quite a while. Emily Hobhouse born in Cornwall lived in London campaigned for the proper treatment of prisoners of war and particularly women and children the Boer

War in South Africa. There's a museum to her memory just opened in Cornwall there's this statue in Bloemfontein in South Africa but nothing here. Mary Seacole says another quite simply. Oh there's a big there's a really good big Mary Seacole outside to St.'s Hospital, one of the most striking statues in London. Okay there's a little day trip. Amy Johnson statue, I think Hastings is beautiful, that's from Alexandra. Let me see Rachel Carter standing in this place, a celebration of women and the legacy of black enslaved people's contribution to the textile trade. Her poignant statue stands in Nottingham, so some talking about their favourites or

the ones they'd like to see. Actually maybe even with Mary Seacole it could have been a favourite, it's just the two words. Minnie Baldock, my daughter Charlie has been researching her great great great aunt Minnie Baldock. Minnie was a British suffragette along with Annie Kenny. She co-founded the first branch in London of the Women's Social and Political Union. She worked in a shirt factory at the age of 12. She campaigned for the rights of the poor. She was imprisoned twice in Holloway

for her activism and protesting, survived ovarian cancer after operated on by the first female surgeon, remained politically active until her death at the age of 90. And the first surgeon has a statue in London and she was the first person to operate for cervical cancer. Do you think, Anya, just before I let you go, that it will be the trend in statues to

recognize some of these women who have done amazing feats or regular people? I think, I don't know really, I mean it depends on the people behind that, the campaign and what you know. I mean recently we did a gig somewhere and the lady put a little piece of paper in my hand and it was to a lady called Pat Dunn who was the first woman to get her FA Cup final FA, you know, referee and I never heard of her and she was like lived her whole life in Dorset, you know, and I just think so she was someone doing something very small but in a really big way breaking glass ceilings so I don't think they need to be hugely, you know, famous people.

You'd hope it could be to both. Yeah. Yes. Abandoned. There is Statue Safari Maps in Juliet's book, which I have to say, I love the idea of. I want to thank all of you for coming in. It's been lovely to have you. Anya Pearson, Joy Batic, Juliet Ricks, and her book is London Statues of Women. And it's out now.

I want to let people know maybe listening to all those conversation has piqued your interest, got you thinking somehow creatively. If so I want to hear what ideas are going through your head because listener week is fast approaching. We'd like to hear from some of our younger listeners what issues are you facing that are causing you concern or that you want to have discussed on the programme or you want to get off your chest, could be work, opportunities, finance, hobbies, dating, something else about statues perhaps. Or have you perhaps an inspiring story you'd like to share?

You can text WomensHour on 84844 on social media at BBC WomensHour or email us through our website. Looking forward to hearing them. Do get them in because it'll take us a week or so to turn them around as we say. So we'd like to hear from you today and then get some of your ideas in motion. Okay what about this? If you have struggled with hot flushes or night sweats due to the menopause and HRT is not suitable for you, this next conversation may offer a solution. A new hormonal, a new, forgive me, this is the most important part, a new non-hormonal

treatment that has been called transformative. The MHRA, the Medicines and Health Care Products Regulatory Agency in the UK, has become the first global regulator to be given the green light when it comes to this new pill. So to find out more, I'm joined by Dr Paula Briggs. She's a consultant in sexual and reproductive health based at Liverpool Women's Hospital. She's the immediate past chair of the British Menopause Society and chief investigator in the UK for Oasis for a clinical trial of this new non-hormonal drug in breast cancer patients. Good to have you with us Paula. Thank you.

Okay what's it called, how does it work? A drug is called Elanxanotant and it's being marketed as Linquit, that will be the trade name. So do you ask me how it works? Yeah. Yeah so it's a very complex process but body temperature is controlled by the hypothalamus and the brain. And before menopause, estrogen balances the effect of the candy neurons. They're chispeptin, neurokinin and dynorphin. And they prevent hot flushes. Yes, lots of big words. But when estrogen levels fall post menopause, the candy neuron control is lost and hot flushes are triggered to

lower body temperature. So the new drug blocks that pathway, Linquet blocks Neurokinin B, so one of the candineurins, but also substance P which we think will help with sleep because it's part of the process of insomnia. But we already have a drug in the marketplace called Fieselinotant marketed as Veoza and it blocks Neurokinin B. So these are Neurokinin targeted therapies of which we now have two and it's just really exciting. I mean I've been involved in menopause care since 1988 and I have to say I think this is one of the most exciting advances that we've seen. So let's talk about who it might help.

Yeah so women who otherwise can't have HRT, now the vast majority of those women have hormone-dependent cancers and the commonest cancer that we see are women with breast cancer. OASISasis 4, the clinical trial you mentioned, is being undertaken in women who have breast cancer and who are prescribed medication to block the effect of oestrogen, which makes hot flushes worse. And the worry is that for those women who, particularly the younger women who all of a sudden

have a diagnosis of breast cancer, severe hot flushes. Some of those women will disengage from that treatment, which is important to reduce the risk of recurrence. So having a drug that could potentially reduce those horrible side effects is going to make, I think, a huge difference. Sorry, I was going to say at the moment the license, I don't think, includes breast cancer patients, but that would be a logical progression. And with it, some women that cannot take HRT and some that do not want to take HRT for whatever reasons as well, but this is non-hormonal. It is absolutely non-hormonal. So, you know, I think we can extrapolate from that, that it wouldn't increase the risk for that population.

What did you find with the trial, the OASIS-4, as it's called, what people told you that they were trying it? So the most significant thing was that there was a real visible reduction in hot flushes when you look at the outcomes, the graphs. So as early as four weeks into the treatment there was a reduction in the frequency of hot flushes. That increased by 12 weeks and was sustained. The trial, the design of the trial meant that at the very beginning some women were randomised to placebo but by 12 weeks all of the women were taking the active drug and the benefits were sustained across 52

weeks and the women in the benefits were sustained across 52 weeks. And the women in the trial were offered a two-year extension of active drug and over 90% of the women involved accepted that, which I think says a lot about how effective that drug is and what a difference it made to quality of life. We looked at quality of life and we looked at sleep as well using questionnaires. So that's yeah I mean as we all know sleep is so central to our well-being so you have these symptoms but I suppose that will then exacerbate bad sleep or no sleep and whatever it might be and 90% is quite the figure for people to go

ahead. When I was reading they're probably just, you'll have more details, I was reading that it will be available privately, but do we know what that rollout could be for the NHS? Yeah, so what happened with Fiesel and Attant, it was approved and then with drugs when they're newly approved have to go through a nice appraisal process. So the drug, because it's approved and licensed, can be prescribed privately. As I said at the moment we don't have Elinxanotant in the country and we don't know what price it'll be, but as soon as the drug is available, and this is always a process with new drugs, then in the same way as we've been able to prescribe Veoza Fieselinotant privately, we'll be able to in the same way as we've been able to prescribe the was a fetal in a tank privately, we'll be able to do the same with Ellen's

on a time to link it really interesting. You know, I noticed we were speaking about this this morning because, of course, the menopause is the big part of this, that there is a new app that was being discussed, it's called Menopause, which is a hyphen in between. discussed. It's called Menopause, which is a hyphen in between, and they called it a Menopause specialist in doctors' pockets. I suppose they're asking really GPs to use it. It was developed by UCL hospitals, by doctors there. Any thoughts on that particular app? Yeah, I think it's really, really good. It gives GPs who are incredibly busy a really

easy to access resource and recommendations for treatment. I mean, I think it will make a huge difference. And I'm fairly passionate about the fact that women should not have to pay for menopause care. They should be able to get, you know, 90% of women should be able to get menopause care from their GP. But it's been difficult, I think, for various reasons. But this is something which I think will make a huge difference. Interesting. So two good news stories this morning from your perspective. Very much so, yeah. Dr Paula Briggs, consultant in sexual and reproductive health

based at Liverpool Women's Hospital. Thanks so much for joining us and spending some time with us this morning. Lots of you continue to get in touch about statues. Bernadine Evaristo, not a statue of the writer, but a work evoking the concept of girl, woman, other. Very specific. What about Ellen Terry as a statue? Yes, someone we talked about on the programme last week with Miranda Raison, who is on stage playing her. Ellen was a well-known Victorian actor. She was the highest paid performer in the country at one point. Yes, we had a lovely conversation about her with Miranda Raison if you'd like to

listen back to that particular episode of Woman's Arrows just last week. So we're gonna move however from statues. Well you can keep them coming at 84844 but I do want to talk about space as well, because in the 1970s, NASA launched the Space Shuttle program and that expanded America's astronaut program to then include black, Asian, female astronauts for the very first time. There's a new season of the BBC podcast, 13 Minutes Presents. It's called the Space Shuttle. And we hear about some of the world's biggest and boldest journeys into space

and women's role in that. Now, here is one of those women, oceanographer Kathy Sullivan, who became the first American woman to walk in space. You get a face full of spaceship when you're spacewalking and you're maneuvering with your hands along the shuttle. So you're usually looking at the shuttle. You're looking at structure. Why don't you guys take a break?

When you face that picture, look at the ground, right over a beautiful part of Canada. This is not water. This is vacuum. This is space. There are no scuba divers around helping you out. And that thing there is the Earth. We could have just boogied through that spacewalk

and come back and kind of hardly registered that we'd actually done a real spacewalk a couple hundred miles above the Earth. Oh, look at that. Cape Town is beautiful. Long Island, Sally. Long Island, New York. There's a lot of Sullivan's down there. A lot of Sullivan's down there says Cathy Sullivan. Well with me in studio is scientist and broadcaster, Dame Maggie Adderham-Pocock, who presents this new podcast.

Welcome. Thank you so much. Lovely to be here. Isn't it quite cool to listen to that? Oh, actually, yes. And things as I've always wanted to get into space and listening to people in space, sort of them living that experience, it gives me goosebumps. I know she really brought us there.

But I've been talking about game changers this morning. We're talking about a new non hormonal pill just before you came in. But this program, the space shuttle program, was also called a game changer by some. Do you think that's fair? I think it is. And I think it's a game changer in a number of different ways. I mean the technology was sort of it was revolutionary and the idea I think the tagline was a spaceship that goes up like a rocket and

lands like a plane and things and reusable. It's not even back in sort of the 1970s they were talking about sort of reusable spacecraft and that is we have seen the legacy of that today but for women it was a sort of a major step forward. talking about reusable spacecraft. And that is we have seen the legacy of that today. But for women, it was a major step forward. When I was growing up, I heard about NASA. Oh, yeah, maybe one day I could work for NASA and work with NASA. But it was the Russians that got the first woman into space. And the Americans were sort of quite reticent to put a woman in space. But when they got the space shuttle, suddenly this was a much more sort of relaxed way of getting people into space and bringing them back. It's like

gliding home in an aircraft. And so suddenly they opened it up to many, many different people. When you look at the Apollo moon landings and things like that, it was about people with the right stuff, the guys with the crew cuts, ex-test pilots. But now suddenly, everybody could consider that opportunity of getting into space. And me as a kid in the UK was thinking, oh my, maybe one day I could go on the shuttle. And who knew that you were going to be delving in so deep into this era. But what was it like for the first women that were working at NASA? So I think it's quite interesting because there's a woman called Ivy Hooks.

And she was invited along to actually start on the concept of the space shuttle. So she was right there from the get-go. And so as a female engineer at NASA, there were many around. I mean, one Katherine Johnson, there were three women in hidden figures. Oh my goodness, that film there exactly who I was thinking, because where are you wearing NASA, right? Yes, yes. And so these women were the true pioneers. And the pioneers that I'm standing That film there exactly, where you were in NASA, right? Yes. And so these women were the true pioneers and the pioneers that I'm standing on the

shoulders on when I do my work. And so there were a few women, but it's lovely that she was there right from the get go. And then they sort of designed it and then they started looking at a more inclusive sort of cohort. And so it was a sort of the 35 new, sorry, the 35 new guys, where suddenly they're looking at people with different ethnicities, people, including females. If you look at the moon, 12 people have landed on the moon, and all been white, male and American. Yes. But now they're looking at sort of shaking that up. They're talking about Project Artemis,

and they're looking at sending the first woman, the first person of different ethnicity, perhaps from another country, maybe the UK, maybe a space scientist in the UK, I don't know. I think somebody is ready to go, which I'll get to in just a moment, but staying instead with little Maggie. When we talk about the actor, I was so surprised with this, Nichelle Nichols, that she was for people who were into Star Trek and whatnot, Lieutenant Uhuru, she was a role model for you growing up. She was breaking all sorts of barriers. But I think NASA also got her involved.

Yes, because she was a role model for me when I was a child, but she was a role model for many and a role model as a female, a role model as an Afro-American and we used to watch sort of Star Trek at home, oh my goodness it's Yorick! And so NASA realised this and because they wanted to recruit a sort of a different demographic, they asked Nichelle Nichols, the actress, to come along and actually sort of say we are looking for different astronauts, for astronauts from many different walks of life. I love that she took that job because it's so kind of meta. Yes I know from a virtual sort of being playing a space astronaut to actually encouraging the next generation. I did actually meet Nichelle Nichols once.

How was that? It blew my mind. It was worth meeting your hero. Actually, yes, in every sense of the word. I always see myself as a professional, you know, being able to do interviews and things like that. But you're like, you're your own. Which is lovely and that she lived up to it. But it was really, I suppose, that turning point. But as we know, I mean, even today, we were talking about gaming last week, for example, there is often opposition when women enter what has traditionally been a male-dominated area.

Can you tell what it was like at that time? Yes. And it's quite interesting because the interviews are quite candid. And some of the men who were involved at the time were saying, what were they doing, you know, inviting women to come along, you know, they couldn't do what we do, we were the right stuff. And one guy actually sort of talks about his experience and realizing, oh gosh, these women are just as good as us, they are performing, they're outperforming us in many cases. And so there was a sort of a change of understanding. But I think also there were the advocates, Max Faget, he was sort of the pioneer behind the space shuttle. And he wanted that inclusive environment. In, he was sort of the pioneer behind the space shuttle and he

wanted that inclusive environment. In fact as some of the women were training there were kids on the floor crawling around and so he set up that environment so it was inclusive. So I mean so many parallels really with now because they wanted these women so they were going to have to create flexible working conditions. Yes, because some of the astronauts, these sort of young women, are sort of recruited to NASA. Some had babies and things like that. So it was trying to incorporate that. And things I see that again and again, especially in the scientific community, if you have an advocate who creates an environment, then women can thrive in that environment

But the problem is there were too many that there weren't enough advocates And so that's why there is a deficit of women still in science, especially in some subjects today Yes, it's because we had our previous item We were talking about statues and any one of my guests was talking about, you know If you can see it you can be it Which is one thing but then you also need to have the allies and the advocates to be pushing you up. You mentioned that the first woman in space was a Soviet cosmonaut, that was Valentina Tereshkova. Yes, I met her too.

Did you? I did. She blew my mind. Because yes, at one point, because I had this crazy desire, I still have, to get into space. I'm beginning to feel that. I mentioned it a few times. But so to meet the first woman to go into space. I'm beginning to feel that. I mentioned it a few times. But so to meet the first woman to go into space. And she was actually, she was doing something with the Science Museum in London. And it was cosmonauts.

And so she was invited over. And I did an interview with her. And just to be the first woman. But you could tell she was definitely the right stuff. She was a force to be reckoned with. And she went on a solo mission. So she was up there on her own in space. I mean, I find that terrifying. You probably find that exhilarating. I think I'd like company, but I'd still love to do it. But at the end, she said, Maggie, you and me, we will go in space together. And I thought, oh my God, that's amazing.

I'd love that. And then someone else said, yeah, she said that to me too. Don't let them burst that bubble. But as we're talking about women in space, the first Britain in space was also a woman, Helen Sharman, sometimes forgotten. Oh, yes. People think that Tim Peake was the first Brit in space. But of course, Helen Sharman, and they used to call her the girl from Mars because of the company she worked from. But yes, I've met her as well, an amazing woman. And she had to learn Russian. It was, I think, quite a skill set. And she applied, didn't think and didn't think anything would come of it. But then the opportunity arose. And

yes, she went up, but she went up with the Russians. Yes, indeed. You know there was when I was a teenager there was the Challenger disaster which was so famous and you know horrifying and the crew were killed including Krista McAuliffe who was known as the teacher in space and space exploration did stop for a number of years after that. Yeah well the space shuttle program. Should I say space shuttle? Yes and we do actually cover this in the podcast and look at, because there was such a build up and I remember again as a child hearing about teachers in space so everyday people can go into space and then coming home and seeing. Horrifying. Devastation and I think it just caused a sort of a silence across the world because everybody was watching, kids were watching. Yes it was meant to be, I suppose we were taking things for granted in some ways that that things would always work out. It's interesting how much it had changed from the 70s when women

were finally allowed to take such a dangerous journey to then 15 years later that we become just more accustomed to it. So there was a hiatus where they had to rethink and there was a rethink of the whole hierarchy of NASA and we go in and delve into why this disaster happened and get an understanding of it and NASA came out with sort of a new mindset really of more accessibility, everybody can speak up and sort of participate. But then they launched again and and continued. And also, as we bring all our threads together, there is a statue of Valentina in Siberia where she touched down

as we talk about statues and women. And we've talked about you going to space briefly. I alluded to it. How do you feel about space tourism? I mean, obviously, I mean, how many memes were there from Katy Perry and the rest of the women that went into space not so long ago? Thoughts on it? I think as someone who wants to get into space, yes, I find it quite exciting. Yes. Because in the past about only 600 people have ever been into space, so that's quite a select few and I think if we're going to rely on sort of European Space Agency NASA, it's So that's quite a select few. And I think if we're going to rely on sort of European Space Agency, NASA, it's going to remain

quite a few people. But space commercialization, I think, gives the opportunity for more of us to get out there. And so I'm really excited about that. But at the same time, I want it done sort of ethically. I don't want space to become sort of the next frontier, you know, the Wild West, where people are just sort of pinging things up there. And so if we can utilize it, I think it's wonderful that we get people into space, because I think that is humanity's destiny. Our destiny lies in the stars. I would say that, but I really believe that. But at the same time, I think we need to utilize space to help us here on Earth. And so as we do make that sort of journey to the moon, to Mars, to beyond, let's learn

the lessons here, rather than transferring our problems out there. And why do you think our destiny lies in the stars? So we look for life in the universe, and we spend a lot of time doing this. And so far, we've only found life here on Earth. We have sort of maybe some inkling that there might be life out there. We've only found life for sure here on earth and it does feel sometimes that we have all our eggs in one basket. We have pandemics, we have asteroid strikes, all things we are trying to sort of mitigate against but if we had humans seeded in different parts of the solar system and beyond I think humanity would be safer for the future. So I think it does make some sense. Also I think space can be utilized for the good of humanity. Which is the part I was thinking about

as you said, you know, there has to be an ethical way of going about space travel, that's commercial etc. Do you think it's possible to do that? Do you not think the genie is out of the bottle already? So I think I work as a space scientist and I build satellites and probes like the James Webb Space Telescope looks into deep dark space to understand the universe but most of the satellites I've worked on are Earth observation satellites. They help us with climate change, they help us understand shipping in Singapore, they help us understand disasters and send help to the people who need it most. They can help us understand shipping in Singapore, they help us understand

disasters and send help to the people who need it most. They can survey refugee camps and work out where you put facilities for people on the ground. So most of the things we do in space is for the benefit of humanity, for the benefit of planet Earth. But as we take these next sort of stumbling steps out into the universe literally, it's trying to work out how we benefit everyone. That it's not just for the developing world, sorry the developed world, and it's only a few people who get out there. If we're going out, we need to go out with everybody and everybody benefits. It's so interesting to think about where it might go because

So interesting to think about where it might go, because as we've seen, it kind of goes in strides and then stumbles perhaps, and then it goes in strides again. So the speed of transformation can be accelerated. I'm just thinking of little Maggie again. You had a Barbie made out of you. I have, I put it with me. Oh my goodness, there she is. Can you describe her for our listeners? Yes, well actually it does look decidedly like me because my daughter took photographs

of me and we sent them to Mattel because every year Mattel will select six people from around the world and role models and make them into dolls. And so yes, I was made into a Barbie doll. And yes, she's got sort of a purple in her hair like me, grey hair, and sort of a fringe like me and this is one of my favorite space dresses. So the dress is like a full skirt but it's like looking into a galaxy of stars. Always reaching for the stars me. That is Dame Maggie Adderham-Pocock. You can listen to more of Maggie and why wouldn't you want to? 13 minutes presents the Space Shuttle on BBC Sounds. Join us

tomorrow where we have Imelda Staunton and her daughter Bessie Carter. We'll speak to you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi guys, this is Ryland and I'm here to tell you about how to be in love from BBC Sounds. Now as a single divorcee I'm here to tell you about how to be in love from BBC Sounds. Now, as a single, divorcee, I feel ready to find love again, but I want to see if there's a better way of going about it. In this series, I'm going to sit down with 12 incredible guests who are really going to help me rediscover what love truly means and how I can find it again. People like Stephen Fry, Louis Theroux, Matt and Emma Willis and many more.

So join me on this journey as I explore how to be in love. Listen on BBC Sounds.