Woman's Hour - Scotland's hate crime law, Motherhood and art, Actor Rachael Stirling

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

Scotland's new hate crime law came in to effect yesterday. The Act creates a crime of "stirring up hatred" relating to age, disability, religion, sexual orientation, transgender identity or being intersex. To discuss the concerns some women have Emma Barnett is joined by Susan Smith, co-director of the group For Women Scotland, and The Times journalist John Boothman.A new play at the Hampstead Theatre – The Divine Mrs S - explores the life of Sarah Siddons, who was the first truly respected female actor in theatre, achieving a huge level of celebrity at the end of the 18th century. April De Angelis’ backstage comedy explores the origins of celebrity culture and portrays Siddons, played by Rachael Stirling, as a pioneer in command of her own image and craft. Emma talks to April and Rachael about what inspired them to bring Siddons back to life. Why have women with children long struggled to be taken seriously as artists? Acts of Creation: On Art and Motherhood looks at the joys and heartaches, mess, myths and mishaps of motherhood through over 60 artists and 100 artworks. Art critic Hettie Judah who curated the exhibition and artist and senior lecturer at the Royal College of Art Hermione Wiltshire who has two pieces of work displayed in it join Emma. In January 2023, Eleanor Williams was found guilty of perverting the course of justice after inflicting injuries on herself and then posting pictures of them claiming they were a result of rape and grooming. Why would she lie? That’s the subject of a new podcast, Unreliable Witness, which looks into what happened before, during and after the accusations made by Eleanor. Sky News Specialist Producer Liz Lane joins Emma to talk about the new discoveries about the story she made while looking into what happened.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. I hope you had a decent bank holiday weekend. Perhaps chocolate was consumed, perhaps sunshine was felt, perhaps you did very little at all, or maybe you felt rushed off of your feet. Either way, we are here here we are back on the

other side of easter i spent my weekend in broadstairs for the first time and it was bracing and charming in equal measure delicious fish and ice cream were consumed but not i hosted at the same time and i can't quite still find myself getting to grips with embracing being cold on the beach despite how lovely the sound of the sea and the sight of it is. But J.K. Rowling, one of the world's most successful authors and famous women, spent part of her bank holiday weekend challenging police in Scotland to arrest her. This is because, as of yesterday, sexual orientation, transgender identity or being intersex. Noticeably, the law does not protect women as a group from hatred. The Scottish government is expected to include this later in a separate misogyny law. J.K. Rowling, the Harry Potter author who lives in Edinburgh, in a series

of social media posts described several transgender women as men, including convicted prisoners, trans activists and other public figures. She said freedom of speech and belief was at an end if accurate description of biological sex was outlawed and invited police to arrest her if they believe she has committed an offence. Misgendering and stirring up hatred relating to transgender identity, that's what she's honing in on. Shortly, we're going to unpack what this new law is designed to do, or new part of the law is designed to do, and how it might work in practice. Yesterday, Scotland's First Minister, Humza Yousaf, said that the new law would deal with a rising tide of hatred. Do you agree with JK Rowling and those who share her concerns, or is such an act necessary? Just to remind you, it is Scotland we're talking about. I should also

say we invited JK Rowling onto Woman's Hour today, but haven't heard back yet. You can text the programme, though. You can be in touch. You can have your voice heard on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email me through the Woman's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Just watch those data charges. As you know, I want to hear from you.

Please do get in touch. Many of you are kind enough to do so when we're on air and sometimes when we're not on air. So we do use those messages too where we can and we get a sense of what you think. So please get in touch this morning about that. And anything else you hear, because also on today's programme, Art and Motherhood, a new exhibition seeks to bring the two together.

We'll hear why this is a rarer act than perhaps you think. And the actor Rachel Sterling will be here to talk about Sarah Siddons, the Queen of Drury Lane at the end of the 18th century. More to come and even more actually some other stories, too. So do stay with me and do get in touch. But freedom of speech and belief are at an end in Scotland if the accurate description of biological sex is deemed criminal. So says author and feminist campaigner J.K. Rowling. Her words, as I said, part of a lengthy thread on social media following the news yesterday of the introduction

of Scotland's new hate crime law. The Act creates a crime of stirring up hatred. I gave you that list, but just to remind you, relating to age, disability, religion, sexual orientation, transgender identity or being intersex, it has been controversial, to say the least. In a moment, I'll be talking to Susan Smith, co-director of the group For Women Scotland,

to hear about the concerns some women have. The BBC has heard from Vic Valentine of the charity Scottish Trans, who says that the organisation supports the law because of the serious impact that hate crime can have on LGBTI people. I should say we invited the SNP onto Woman's Hour this morning, but we didn't hear back. First, let me talk to John Boothman, journalist for The Times and Sunday Times based in Scotland.

John, good morning. Morning, Emma. What's in the law? I think it's worth saying at the very, very beginning, and you pointed this out in your introduction, that the law was given royal assent three years ago. And the reason that it's taken so long to work out what to do about the law is the difficulties in enforcing that. And the police have spent three years trying to

work that out. So it came into force yesterday. What the law does is it broadens the existing offence of stirring up hatred. It's extended that to that long list of characteristics that you gave earlier. You rightly point out it doesn't include hatred of women, it doesn't include sex in that, but it also provides that there can be harsher sentences, up to seven years in fact, for those convicted of crimes to be considered to be aggravated by prejudice. That is that offenders have to demonstrate malice or ill will towards their victim based on those protected characteristics. Now, there's two legal tests of that, whether a person behaved in a manner that a reasonable person would be would consider to be threatening or abusive and the second is whether the person intended to stir up hatred against a group or a

person with those characteristics only if those two tests are met will there be a prosecution and it's widely recognised by legal expert that that second test about proving whether a person is intending to stir up hatred against a group or a person is quite a high bar. So what you get is supporters of the act will tell you that they don't think there will be many prosecutions as a result of that. I think it's

fair to say in the past week, a lot of attention has really focused on the reporting and the recording of these incidents. But as I say, supporters of the Act would say they don't expect that many prosecutions. That's what makes the JK Rowling intervention interesting yesterday. Will she be prosecuted or will she not? Is misgendering someone an offence under this Act or not? We await to see what the police will do about it. Do we have any idea? I mean, not just focusing on her, but I suppose she has put herself in this in a very specific way. Do we know if those sorts of messages, I gave a flavour of them, people can check them out at their own free will. But are they going to fulfil those two criteria that you spoke about, malice or ill will or intended to stir up hatred?

How do you diagnose those things? Well, that's the interesting question that the police operationally will need to decide. I think it would be fair to say that those people who support the Act probably do think that Jackie Rowling may be prosecuted for this. And those people who are opposed to the legislation, well, would think that perhaps she won't be. And in terms of the police and the support for, as you say, there's been a lot of time in between trying to figure this out since this first came up. What is the response of the enforcers? Well, I heard the Police Federation in Scotland talking yesterday

about how apprehensive the police are in dealing with this. The police themselves, Police Scotland, have instigated a programme of training. That training, though, amounts to not very much. It's a couple of hours online training. The Police Federation representative said yesterday that 6,000 of the 16,000 police officers in Scotland had not received that training. He pointed out that after the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, they'd had two days face-to-face training. So there is a view, even amongst police officers, that the training's been pretty inadequate. They've done some rather interesting things. They've issued a list of 400 or so hate crime reporting centres, including in a sex shop in Glasgow, a mushroom farm in North Berwick and a salmon farm where people can enormously go and report these incidents. And that's controversial, isn't it? Being able to anonymously report? Well, anonymously report at various locations that are not police stations, I think is pretty controversial at the end of the day.

They've also themselves appointed 500 crime champions within the force to help frontline police officers determine whether or not people should be charged. Thank you very much for putting us in the picture. As we also mentioned, women not included, a separate law expected to come on that going towards and talking about misogyny specifically. John Boothman there, journalist for The Times and Sunday Times based in Scotland. Listening to that, Susan Smith, co-director of the group For Women Scotland, which campaigned against recent proposed changes to gender law, amongst other things. Susan, good morning. Good morning, Emma. What do you take issue with with this particular act?

Well, the first thing is, obviously, as you've said, that sex is not included. And that was actually a key recommendation of the original independent review undertaken by Lord Brackerdale when he was looking at existing hate crime and trying to formulate a new plan. And he specifically recommended that there'd been a missed opportunity back in 2008 when it was last looked at. So he suggested that sex should go in, it would prevent duplication, it would reflect the protected characteristic that exists already in the Equality Act, and that training of the police and the judicial system to deal with

what we know is an epidemic of violence against women could begin. We know that crime generally is taken more seriously if it attracts a hate crime aggravator. So often crimes against women which do not have this aggravator are treated less seriously than an equivalent crime against another protective characteristic. We have a really, really mad thing in here where one of the characteristics that are protected under transgender identity are people who occasionally cross-dress and the example given by the equality network who pushed for this was that this might cover somebody going to the rocky horror show so we've got this absurd situation where a man who is dressed up in stockings for a night out for a bit of a joke and is a victim of crime could make a

complaint under a hate crime report. Whereas a woman who's similarly attacked and is wearing slightly risque clothing could well be asked in court whether her clothing choice contributed to this attack. It'd have to get to court though, wouldn't it? So rather than going through a long list here, there is the reality of these two criteria that we just had laid out that would have to be cleared. Malice or ill will or intended to stir up hatred. And for those who... Stirring up.

Yes, sorry. And what I was going to say was for those who support these additions, perhaps they would say the threshold is hard. It's taken this long to get here because the threshold had to be at that level. Does that give you any comfort? Well, not really. So that was to clarify. The first part I was saying was on the hate crime in general.

That's the aggravator. So that's when you've actually committed a crime. The stirring up is much more vague and has this abusive or threatening behaviour. And they talk about, as John said, this test for a reasonable person. Now, I feel that if you are, for example, a minister in the Scottish Government, you should be a reasonable person. But Patrick Harvey, who's an MSP and part of Hamza Yusuf's cabinet, has been calling colleagues transphobes for years now when they've spoken out about women's rights. Is Patrick Harvey not a reasonable person? I think it's very difficult. I think the police have been put in an impossible situation. I think when things get... Patrick's not here to reply to your example, but you think

this is not going to be a situation where the police can separate this out because of this law? I think the police training, as John also said, has been thoroughly inadequate, not fit for purpose, was what the chair of the Police Federation described it. And the problem is they've said they'll investigate everything. So it's almost inevitable that some people will be investigated. They will have their lives upended. They'll have equipment taken. And as we know, most people these days rely on their laptops. They rely on their phones, especially people for work or for caring responsibilities. And that could go on for 18 months two years and then you get caught and they say this does not meet the tests and it's thrown out but that doesn't give anybody

back that period of their life when they've been put through the mill and so the process very much becomes the punishment and this could all have been avoided because right back at the beginning um during the later stages at latter stages of the bill there was an attempt to put in free speech amendments there was an outcry on Twitter Nicola Sturgeon directly intervened and made Humsey Yusuf pull them he then promised at committee he promised me and Lucy Hunter Blackburn that we would be involved in drafting guidance and giving examples. So the police would understand if somebody like J.K. Rowling said, made a thread like that on Twitter, for example.

We could have had real world examples for the police to use in training. But what happened was he broke those promises because ministers decided that it would upset the trans lobby if those examples were given in the guidance to the police. But JK Rowling, there's no action been taken so far. There may not be. And if there isn't, does that assuage any of your concerns? Because it's an example, she's thrown it down. She said, arrest me. She's on holiday at the moment but when she gets back she said go on do your worst and if it doesn't happen it may then show what you're saying to be a concern fair enough but it won't come to pass perhaps well possibly not um i'm not sure that's a really sensible basis for policing or legislation though no no i wasn't saying as a basis i just meant you know trying to

as you're talking about real world examples and this is what's difficult isn't it when something's just come in you're trying to get to grips with it and there's intention and then there's the process becoming as you say the punishment i've interviewed so many people with all sorts of issues like this where the process has actually been worse than what then eventually happened far from examples like of this sort of nature. But it's about whether people can trust, I suppose, the authorities and the police with the law that has been written to have the right response.

And what I'm trying to understand from you is, do you not think they can have a sort of proportionate response with the way that this has been written, or do you not trust the police full stop to do so? I think the police have been put in a really difficult position because what we are hearing from them about their guidance is that it's thoroughly inadequate and some of it is contradictory and the signals that are going out are completely contradictory.

I mean, we had a ridiculous campaign featuring the hate crime monster and the police talking about, well, the hate crime monster video said, before you know it, you've committed a hate crime. Now, obviously, we're told that you have to have intent to commit a hate crime, but the actual publicity material from the police is saying you could commit a hate crime without knowing it there are huge posters up around Scotland now saying if you read something on the internet that upsets you you can report it as a hate crime so the messaging from the police and government is completely at odds with what they are saying

is the reality of the bill, of the act, sorry. And Hamza Yousaf says you can still be done for wasting police time. Although, well, the SNP's Victims and Community Safety Minister, Siobhan Brown, has described the act as ambitious, while also insisting it would not necessarily criminalise anything that was not already criminal. And building on that point in terms of the SNP's ambitions, to use that word, just to say there is obviously a specific misogyny law that's coming in due course. If women had been included, some may have argued, well, the situation with women, as you said yourself, is so serious, it should have its own, you know, this sex and women specifically should

have its own category. What do you say to those women who feel reassured, perhaps, that that is coming and will be treated very seriously because it's on its own? I think if it was as serious as they claim it should be, and as I believe it is, they would have done something already. There was no need particularly to tidy up the hate crime, existing hate crime law law if you were going to leave out sex, because that was the major part of Brackadale's recommendation. So we've had a long period of time where women haven't been included. We're going to have a longer period

of time, frankly, because I don't think many people have a lot of trust in the SNP to deliver on this. They have dragged their feet over so many proposals, including bringing in, for example, the Nordic model, which they promised before this parliament they were going to act on. So I'm not sure I trust them to bring in this misogyny law. I think it's jammed tomorrow from them. Well, I can't ask them.

I'd like to be able to. A representative was asked to come onto the programme. We haven't heard back from the SNP this morning, which I hope we can rectify perhaps tomorrow's programme. We are getting quite a few messages, as you would expect, on this. If you're just joining us, that was Susan Smith, co-director of the Group for Women's Scotland, which campaigned against recent proposed changes to gender law and some serious concerns around this law. Thank you very much, Susan Smith. A message here. J.K. Rowling has only said what the majority of women think and feel.

She's placed herself in the firing line of trans activists and misogynists because she has the capacity to do so without having her career destroyed. There is a conflict between what are described by some as gender critical beliefs and trans ideology, and she's highlighting that beautifully. Trans rights are women's rights. That can conflict or conflation, as some people put it. But another message here is saying it is horrific that J.K. Rowling is using her platform to stir up hate for the trans community

by misgendering people. It appears that many anti-trans campaigners like J.K. Rowling, she wouldn't say she's anti-trans, want to hide behind claims of stating facts without understanding that intent is considered within the act. Freedom of speech and belief are qualified rights. It does nothing for women's rights to be offensive to others. Indeed, it is anti-feminism to oppress others in order to advance your own rights. Perhaps she should consider what it's like to be trans and face abuse from her and her followers on a daily basis.

No name on that particular message. Thank you for sending it in. As I said at the beginning, and I'll say again, if you're only just joining us, we did invite JK Rowling onto Woman's Hour this morning. And just like the SNP, we as of yet have not heard back. I will update you should that change. It is a live radio programme and for a reason. We can always try to bring you people or things as it develops. Your message is still coming in

and I'll come back to them. And some of you just talking about the fact that this is so very polarising especially amongst women. But let me tell you about a different woman in a different time. It's a new play.

The subject, or rather she's the subject of a new play at the Hampstead Theatre called The Divine Mrs S. It explores the life of Sarah Siddons, aka the Queen of Drury Lane. She was the first truly respected female actor in theatre, as many

would put it, achieving a huge level of celebrity at the end of the 18th century. She was also subject to direction from the men in her life, her brother who chose her roles and her husband who signed her contracts and collected her fees. She was also known for her careful control of her public image and the play, written as a backstage comedy, also highlights the origins of celebrity culture.

In a moment, we'll be hearing from the writer, April de Angelis, and the lead actor, Rachel Sterling. But first, let's just have a listen to a flavour of the play it's nonsense there's nothing you can tell me about acting I'm John Philip Kimball I need a writer I need Joanna Bailey no one likes her play they liked it well enough till you turn them against it the thing is brother I am not 25 anymore no you're not i have grown but my parts have not i haven't got the faintest idea what you're talking about what is inside me he needs to be channeled into the roles i play this isn't going to get anatomical is it give me what i

want brother or face the consequences there you go some. Some drama, which is what we need. April De Angelis and Rachel Stirling have just joined me in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome to you both. Rachel, I was actually just going to start with this. It's not going to get anatomical. I mean, we get a sense of what this woman was dealing with here. Yes, she was dealing with domestic management. She was dealing with the fact she wasn't allowed to own anything, much less her own earnings. She wasn't allowed to control anything within her own personal life. She was a vassal.

But within those constraints, she did manage to navigate her public image through the use of portraiture. That's why she's sort of vaguely well-known, not as well-known as I think she ought to be, but courtesy of the images that were painted of her by Thomas Lawrence, Joshua Reynolds, Gainsborough. So she was very early on understanding the importance of image.

She sort of made the theatre respectable as well. So she was trying to be a presentable face of womanhood while also battling the same battles we all battle. Yes, and in a very different time, and many won't have heard of her. April, why did you go towards her story? What did you want to say about her? What should we know?

Well, she was the first great celebrity actress. I mean, in her day, she was, you know, you'd find her face on kind of cups and plates and all these portraits. She was so well known. And there was a thing called the Siddons effect. You know, she had this incredible impact on audiences because she was, well, she kind of invented a new kind of acting was one thing. She was much more contemporary, but she also kind of had powerful emotional impact on her on the women in the audience who saw her playing these mothers she was very famous for kind of playing distressed mothers mothers who had their children taken away from her and then in that particular age where women were legally dead you know they had no rights over their body their

property or their children it was a kind of catharsis for the audience and it had this huge kind of impact people would faint women would be kind of you know crying and we yeah it was very powerful and I just thought her story was sort of fascinating that in one sense she was kind of crafting as Rachel said this kind of very public kind of figure so the actors could be respectable that she was a mother and she wasn't ambitious and she didn't want money. On the other side, you know, if occasionally she would be sort of trolled because people would say, well, actually, she's slipped up. She is venal. She is ambitious. She's left her children, you know, because inevitably, you know, you cannot do everything as a woman like you're expected to be. Did you have any, when you were doing your research,

I know you were trawling through the archives, looking at the British Library, did you find any evidence of how she really felt versus the public image that she put out? It's really hard because I think she was so constrained by her kind of persona that she was building that actually there's very little. But somebody, she did write a little bit about um her feelings about her performance of Lady Macbeth

and they found these notes in a in a library kind of kind of you know maybe 100 years ago or something and that's her original voice but there's nothing apart from these kind of this sort of slither of writing that's in her original voice. Heaven for Fenn, she'd be ambitious, right? I mean, what are we coming to? We still don't, I think, like them, do we, Rachel? She played Hamlet. She was allowed to do it in Smock Alley.

Well, her brother did it in London, but she played Hamlet famously in a dress. And, well, I do it hitched up, but she did all the sword fighting. She did, she was a game bird wasn't she yes and actually what our play is part funny and part tragedy because of her circumstances you can't April has brilliantly framed this rather tragic character actually in a kind of uh chaotic brilliant backstage part farce situation.

Why is she tragic? Because there are, I understand, lots of laughs in here, but what's the tragedy for you? The tragedy for me is the fact that she has no agency and every night I feel cross when I'm being bullied by my brother or he just comes in and says, you're off to Ireland touring for four months and she says, but my daughter's ill. This was true was true my daughter's ill I don't want to go away and he

says I'm sorry your husband signed the contract so um you know she had two daughters died one son died while abroad in India she gave birth in the wings and then she went on and did her performance you know she uh she she was a I guess tragedy is the wrong word. She was a survivor. She was an extraordinary survivor who definitely had to have a sense of humour. I also understand that the phrase from her, the words, if it is to be found in nature, I know it can be played. Yes. And was attributed or very much spoken about by your late mother,

Dame Diana Rigg, who used to remind you of these words. Of course, a great actor herself. She said, she would quote that at me. I can't remember what, I think it was to do with her book, The Reviews, No Turn Unstoned. But Sarah Siddons said, yeah, it was her observation of naturalism. She was the first person, because you've got to bear in mind these actors were doing

all kind of performances with their arms waving around doing certain set positions. I'm happy you described that because we are on radio. It's a shame for our listeners not to know what you're doing. Can be a bit ditzy.

No, no, it's great. There's a lot of flailing. A lot of flailing with the limbs and huge bass voice, tremulous. And she was rather, and she was naturalistic. And that's why she provoked these extreme reactions in women who were feeling all these feelings in their domestic life,

but were never allowed to let these feelings out until suddenly they find themselves in this theatre with the cross-section of humanity. From rich to poor, everybody's coming to the theatre and everybody is collectively emoting. But the key to that was Sarah's observation of naturalism and knowing that if you know there were some ridiculous parts she was asked to play you know written by friends of hers and she would say I can't do this and that's the truth I think in some of her diaries you see her actual reaction to the text she's being sent god this is an awful piece i can't possibly do it whereas um

things that she knew you could find in nature she knew that were playable believable credible and i think that she sort of invented a form of naturalism um that we still hold on to today but she was definitely the first person to put it into words and and in terms of that impact april do you do you have a sense of that and what that did for others working in the trade, but also for audiences? It must have been such a thing to see and very novel. Yeah, I mean, she was incredibly famous. I mean, Byron famously sort of adored her. You know, she was the name on everyone's lips.

And I think she did, you know, for women, she kind of made a mark in the sand, sort of that she she was the first great actress that that we know about. And I think she the stature that she achieved and the cultural significance she achieved somehow must have opened doors for other women. But she never played comedy. Comedy was considered too dangerous for her because she was always trying to be respectable. So she only ever played in kind of tragedies or these wounded mother parts. She made George III cry famously and he would get her to perform for her.

He was, yeah, she was an emotional powerhouse. She was. There's lots of fainting. Yeah. Have you heard any fainting in the audience? Not yet. Only me. You're hoping.

Has it taught you, Rachel, as an actor, as someone in the train, obviously grew up around it as well, has it taught you a bit more about your own representation, how to put yourself out there in the public, has it made you think? I am hopeless. I've locked myself out of my own Instagram page. Excellent work.

At some point during lockdown, which I think was a good thing. Because I could see this sort of like, I got a bit parasitic about people liking things. And I thought this is not my best bit. You can't get into the likes. Because when they don't like you, they come for you. So locking myself out. I am not good at curating my own image. I have the hair of a loo brush most of the time and no makeup on, much to my mother's constant chagrin.

And I'm a bit of a mess in the image department so I aspire to be more like Sarah Siddons and can I just I mean you just mentioned lockdown there and your mother but but some will have uh come to your your writing and what you shared about um your mother just very briefly if I can because it was it was in the news last week um that Scotland we've talked a little bit about Scotland and law this morning but in a different way, could be the first UK nation to provide terminally ill people with assistance to end their lives if that was introduced, if that bill is approved. And it's an ongoing debate about assisted dying in the UK

and people calling for this, campaigning for this and you wrote about your mother's views on assisted dying as she came to the end of her life and and you really shared what she had talked about i believe on a tape recorder yeah saying um that you know the the end was just so very painful and difficult and people shouldn't have to be in that position yeah how is that now have having shared that and and with this news yeah um, well, she'd be so proud. And I might get a bit weepy. She'd be so proud. The thing, it's a no, don't mind.

But the thing about it is that, you know, for an incredibly powerful, intelligent woman, it was pretty tough. And we did it. We faced, she faced it. She faced it. We faced it with sort of fortitude and joy and laughter and camparis and she was living with me and I was looking after her. But I'm incredibly glad.

I think people should be given agency at the end of life. On the whole, I wrote that piece so I could give it context and not burst into tears. But here we are. So I think she'd be incredibly proud. I mean, one has to acknowledge that the other side of it is, would I not have those two months when I was caring for her? You know, obviously her wishes are first and foremost,

but I loved having her for those two months. And we sort of became one in the same person I knew what she wanted before she knew what she wanted and I was a proper you know we were a proper carer um giver of the meds giver of the everything um but the pain and the quality of life and stuff um and I gave her the best of an ending that it was possible to give, I hope, I think, but not everyone's able to give that. So I felt it was the right time to put her words out there and I'm sure she'd be really proud of it and like I said in the article, stirring the pot from beyond the grave

and starting a national conversation and I've had lots of amazing people come up to me and say, from beyond the grave, you know, and causing and starting a national conversation. And I've had lots of amazing people come up to me and say, thanks so much. This is what we, I sort of didn't want to be the flag waver for euthanasia. I wanted the conversation to carry on of its own accord. And I think it did. So I'm very, you know, pleased for her and proud of that. I mean, I think it's, you know, when you have started a conversation like that, it's always good to, I suppose,

just hear how it has been some weeks on, some months on in that, which is why I wanted to ask you, also in light of that change. Yes. Oh my God, it's extraordinary. I just couldn't, the next morning I was asked to go on every show and everything and I thought, I just can't

because I'll do what I just did then only worse have a good old sob which where it doesn't isn't really the point but the grief is still there because we were so close and much you know I mean having said that as I we had we ran the entire encyclopedia of mother-daughter relationship from total you know non-speaks for a couple of months at a time to to sort of ridiculous proximity. So anyway, it's made me want to write about her life. So I'm starting to embark on that now and write about the laughter and the love

because there's a lot of that. Well, you know, Diana Rigg will be somebody that those words are associated with and now with Campari as well. So we'll end on that and remind people that The Divine Mrs S is on at the Hampstead Theatre, starring Rachel Sterling, who you were just listening to and being so honest and generous. Thank you very much.

Hampstead Theatre until April the 27th. And the playwright behind that and bringing us this story and getting us a bit better acquainted, if you aren't already with Sarah Siddons, the so-called Queen of Jewellery Lane, April de Angelis. Thank you to you. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Thank you. I have to say, while we've been talking and carrying on, I suppose, with our first conversation, many messages coming in. This is to do with the potential use of a new law in Scotland, the new Hate, Crime and Public Order Act, which came in yesterday. New crime of stirring up hatred relating to age, disability, religion, sexual orientation, transgender identity or being intersex, not including sex, not including women. I totally agree with J.K. Rowling. If you're born as male or female, that is your true gender. If a person undergoes gender change, they should be referred to as transgender, male or female, but not as true male or female.

Birth certificates should never be altered. They should be true to their birth. But another one here saying I'm a woman, I'm transgender and I live in Scotland. This is just in Scotland. It's good to remind people of that. I think sex should have been included in the law. It is a protected characteristic. Excluding it was wrong. What J.K. Rowling posted yesterday is not a hate crime. It is offensive, but not an offence. J.K. Rowling has made a living from writing fiction. Nothing has changed. Why can't people just be left alone, reads another message, as someone who's part of the LGBTQ community. I don't understand why J.K. Rowling feels the need to, as you see it, spew hate towards the trans community. Seriously, just leave them alone. They've done nothing wrong.

It's ridiculous. They've done nothing to her. Another, I stand by J.K. Rowling as having an opinion that differs from someone else's. It does not make her comments abusive. She is not inciting hatred nor directly insulting anyone. She's expressing her personal views. If you're a pro-biological woman or women, it does not mean you are anti-trans. Just like if you support one view on anything, it doesn't automatically mean you are against

as what is seen as the opposite view. Trans women and women are not the opposite of biological women. Thank you, Anon. No name as that space there. So it continues. Strong opinions coming in and some nuance as well, as I would always expect from you. Thank you very much.

Keep those messages coming in. But a question or a couple of questions. Why have women with children long struggled to be taken seriously as artists? Let me put that to you. Where is the art about motherhood? A new exhibition seeks to pull some of it together and provide some answers as well as some questions too. Acts of Creation on Art and Motherhood is showing at the Arnolfini Gallery in Bristol. It brings together 60 artists and 100 artworks.

Just joining me now in the studio, the art critic Hetty Judah, who curated the exhibition, and the artist Hermione Wiltshire, who has two pieces of work in the show and is a senior lecturer at the Royal College of Art. Welcome to you both. Hetty, your passion project, I believe, Years in the Making. Yes, this is a subject I've been working on for about five years now. And it really started because there were all these fascinating studies being done looking at gender balance in the art world. And the studies were very much showing that there are these structural problems where women were excluded in a number of different ways in the art world and were very poorly represented. But I was really interested by what wasn't really showing up in the data. And one of the things that struck me as potentially

having quite a big impact on women's ability to flourish in the art world was motherhood and whether motherhood was having a negative impact on female artists' careers. So I did a big study in 2019, 2020, and I've published extensively about that, so I won't discuss it here. But a couple of the things that came out in that study were, firstly, that there was no cultural paradigm of the artist mother. So there wasn't a figure that you could look up to and say, this is what I do. And many of the older women who are returning to their artwork after having raised a family were essentially being dismissed as hobbyists, they weren't being taken seriously. And the other thing that really came up quite strongly in many of the interviews was that art about motherhood was not seen as being a particularly serious subject. People were being told at art college that if they wanted to be taken seriously as an artist,

they should step away from this subject. It wasn't a subject for great art or a great subject for art, you might also say yeah which is fascinating when you think also of the very traditional uh portrayal um we just had easter of mother and child um that's obviously not motherhood per se but but that image being so prevalent in art now it's been really interesting because quite a few of the artists in the show have actually taken on the virgin and child as as this obviously this great piece of iconography and there's a really wonderful piece by the artist Leni Dautin called Sleeping Madonna and it's it's actually you don't really realize it's a video it's a very gentle short looping video where she's portrayed as this renaissance Madonna breastfeeding her child but she and the baby both

fall asleep and she really wanted to show the fact that this ideal of the self sacrificing, perfect nurturing mother is one that still hangs over women today. And that the reality is very different. You're often exhausted or run ragged. Did you feel this Hermione when you became a parent when you became a mother that you shouldn't portray it or it wasn't to be part of this? So when I first went into art school, I was very, very aware that the kind of cultural field of the mother was quite negative. So, for instance, Mary Kelly's postpartum document, which was originally shown in 76 and in 84 was acquired by the Tate,

of which there is a section of it in Hetty's show, was absolutely vilified in the British press at the time. And there was a tremendous amount of negativity towards the maternal in the air. And I was very affected by that. And it wasn't until 94 when I made a piece of work about pregnancy for the British Council Gallery in Prague when I was invited to make a piece by the curator Andre Cook. And that was a photograph of a very pregnant tummy that was huge, three metres by two metres from the front and then pressed into the corner window of a gallery at street level.

So you had this gigantic belly that looked like a bit like an elephant or just quietly pressing into the corner. That sounds incredible. But linking sexuality and pregnancy. And that was just shortly after the famous Demi Moore front cover of Vanity Fair that were more by Annie Leibovitz that more or less changed the kind of culture of sexuality and pregnancy. So I was still sort of operating as a daughter then, as an artist's daughter, not really as a mother. But that was the field in which I came into, was quite a negative sort of landscape. Which is definitely worth remembering as the broader context and hasn't totally gone away, I imagine, for a lot of landscape. Which is definitely worth remembering as the broader context and hasn't totally gone away,

I imagine, for a lot of people. I was just thinking back to, I go to galleries a lot if I can, now having got two small children, maybe not in the way I would like to or running around and not reading anything. But I did manage to take a video at Manchester Art Gallery,

The Distance I Can Be From My Son by Lenka Clayton. This amazing view of your child going as far as you, and then you have to go and get them. And it was just such a visceral, and I was on my own. So it was such a great thing because I could sit and watch it. But the different way you could show motherhood and creativity, the possibilities are endless, aren't they, Hetty?

Yes, I mean, I've quite often said about this exhibition, this enormous exhibition is also one possible exhibition amongst many. There's actually a real wealth of fantastic work that you can show around this subject. And what's interesting, though, is that so much of it has not been shown. So the exhibition goes right back to 1969. And I particularly wanted to show a lot of works that were made in connection to the women's movement that have essentially been forgotten. They weren't even present in feminist art histories, because motherhood was still seen as a very contentious subject that the domestic sphere was seen as a trap and to make work about motherhood was seen as being quite regressive in many ways.

So it was really important to honour some of the earlier work that was being made about motherhood and to show it to artists of this generation who quite often have been making quite similar work. So you see almost the same work being made over and over again in each subsequent generation. I remember trying, the only book I think I managed to get cover to cover on my recent maternity leave was The Baby on the Fire Escape. It's a book, Creativity, Motherhood and the Mind Baby Problem by Julie Phillips. I highly recommend with Alice Neill's painting on the front, which is very memorable. And, you know, there's details in there of how several artists, not just artists in that sense, writers as well, those in the creative field. It talks about don't be

seduced by motherhood. And also this example I really remember, because I love practical advice at times, if I can, from the sculptor Barbara Hepworth, who had triplets and another son and had a set number of minutes a day she would make sure she worked, even if she could just produce, I think it was something like 20. I may have got that wrong. Apologies if I had. But when you find yourself not as a daughter, as a mother, Herm mother Hermione trying to create how did it impact you? Well I had less time of course going to openings was very difficult because they're always in this country between six and eight which is exactly the time. Great hours. All toddlers are getting tired it's the end of their day but but what i did have um though is this um

the beginning of when i first born may i had the beginning of a new relationship and i had uh which was about shifting between being on my own and being with somebody else so that's a gigantic psychological shift that took place but i also had had the privacy. And this privacy, because so much of mothering happens out of the public eye. I also feel that this privacy is the similar privacy to the one that artists and writers have when they write or when artists when they make their work, you need this kind of psychological interiority in order to make a new thing, in order to experience and build and develop new relationships. So actually that relationship, in spite of it, the new one with May, with the newborn May, in spite of it being very private, it was intensely creative at the same time because I could actually start and kind of engage with new aspects of myself. And do you think then Hattie you know just thinking of these different ways if you can see these sorts of examples might

make people feel that it is possible in all sorts of fields to to keep having the creativity do you think we're in a new era for that have you got hope I mean, I don't think at the moment any of us can necessarily feel that we're on in a kind of ongoing one way route to progress, because there are obviously attacks on women's reproductive rights and women's bodily autonomy, you know, that are ongoing. But the centrepiece of the exhibition is called The Temple. And it's a room full of self portraits by artists in which they all portray themselves in different ways in relation to motherhood. One of Hermione's works, it's a collaborative work with Claire Bottomley's in there and in it she suggests that one way to

portray motherhood might be in terms of being the vessel of knowledge that you're passing down to the next generation which I think is a really interesting proposal. So there are all these different proposals around how we might see motherhood, or how we might see ourselves in relation to a motherhood that didn't get to happen. And the rest of the exhibition is really looking at motherhood in all its different aspects, right from problems with conception through to loss, through to acknowledging the fact that motherhood isn't just about having a pregnancy and a birth and a small baby but it's the ongoing care that extends for many of us right up to the rest the end of our lives really. Hermione? I think one of the things that was so so exciting for me about Hattie's show is that this very wide wide pool a wide field that she's kind of expanded of different kinds of maternal includes ambivalence.

And it's that ambivalence to me, maternal ambivalence, that is actually allows for those the feelings that might not be the cliched ones or might not be happy. They are that makes a field that makes a kind of psychological space that enables creativity to happen. That's how I experienced it. I want to come and see it. I'm sorry I haven't yet. But it is called Acts of Creation on Art and Motherhood. It's on at the Arnolfini in Bristol until the 26th of May.

It's on tour. You often ask, will things be moving along and around Birmingham, Sheffield and Dundee through to the spring of next year you can look it up we'll share the details on the website and I will make sure personally I will go to see one of those in those places. Hetty, Judah and Hermione Wiltshire thank you.

Fascinating discussion and messages keep coming in not least as we were just talking to you I was just talking to the actor Rachel Sterling Rachel talking about her mother Diana R, has prompted Callie to say, talking about her at the end of her life and her own grief is making me weep. I would recommend listening to hear about Campari, love and laughter, saying that to others if they didn't catch it this morning on social media.

Very touched to hear Rachel talk about her mother. My sister and I cared for our mother. And although it was private to do it, it was a deeply distressing time seeing her in so much pain and just wanting to die. And that's from Rebecca and many other messages along those lines too, not least as well, and perhaps some of the questions you still have about it maybe will be answered. In May 2020, Eleanor Williams posted a photo on Facebook of herself with a bruised face and some other serious injuries. What she wrote alongside that photograph alleged she had been groomed, raped and trafficked by Asian and Pakistani men. A police inquiry ensued and in her hometown of Barrow-in-Furness in Cumbria, there were multiple occasions of harassment of Asian men and boycotting of their businesses. In January 2023, so last year, Eleanor, sometimes called Ellie,

was found guilty of perverting the course of justice. It was concluded in the court that the injuries in the photo had been self-inflicted by a hammer she had bought. She was sentenced to eight and a half years in prison. This unusual case has now been investigated further by my next guest and her colleague, Jason Farrell, in a new podcast called Unreliable Witness. Liz Lane is a specialist producer for Sky News, working on this with Jason.

She joins me now. She just walked into the studio. Good morning. Hello. Hi. There's a lot in this podcast. I've been listening to it. And there's lots of questions as well that come up. But why did you want to do more on this? Well, I suppose one of the main reasons is that, you know, nobody's ever been able to answer the question of why Eleanor Williams told these lies, what else might have been going on with her.

And so we decided, we came onto the story actually quite early, so significant time before the trial. A different case that we were looking at, we found out that there could be a possible connection with the Eleanor Williams case. And I'd obviously heard about it at the time when she put the post out this Facebook post it was shared a hundred thousand times and it had had a big impact in Barrow um so when I heard of these potential potential connections um I decided to go to Barrow start checking it out so we were looking at this from before the trial and then obviously we got to the trial and you know really um quite shocking um detail came out about the kind of extent of her deception yes and i was gonna say and also the reaction uh and the impact that that deception has had because you know a lot of people who know a lot of you know that each other or they think they know each other and there

was this this uproar and a big impact you managed to track her down in prison speak to her by letter what can you say about her response and any closer that you've got to understanding as to why she did this well yeah I emailed did have an email exchange with her from prison but she's not allowed to discuss her case with journalists so it was quite limited in what we could find out. But, you know, what I did learn was that she is, you know, she seems quite forward-looking. She was working two jobs in prison. She seems to be trying to keep her head down. And what we learned about her as a person from outside,

from those closest to her, people who knew her from school, was that she had started off as a bubbly kind of fun loving girl who liked to make people laugh she worked three jobs and then she for some reason started to descend into this kind of withdrawn introverted character who you know left a pile of Christmas presents at the end of her bed um on you know they didn't didn't unwrap them didn't put them away um and started disappearing and turning up injured so you know some she her behavior did change from someone who seemed you know to be doing quite well in life and and is there a concern that you know other women may not come forward now what the ramifications can be of cases like this we already

know that there are issues around the prosecutions of rape and abuse. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, even before the trial, we've worked on lots of these kind of cases, grooming cases where genuine victims are struggling to be believed or, you know, to actually get justice. And some of the girls that we were speaking to at the time were saying, I'm worried now because the stuff that she's describing is similar to what's happened to me.

And I'm worried that I myself may end up being criminalised or being locked up because what if, you know, maybe I shouldn't report it. And so, you know, what she was saying kind of chimes with genuine victims and they were concerned and then obviously post the conviction um you know it possibly has taken these kind of you know attempts to for women to be believed a step backwards because you know there might be that question in people's mind you know is is this actually true yeah i mean and and also i know that as you say you've worked on a lot of these sorts of cases and and you know you must it must must be very difficult to have this lens on the world, you know, personally, I imagine. And also what your podcast does, and I don't want to give too many different parts of it away, but it shows that you can be guilty of awful deception and terrible things. But also there be concerns about that person as as a potential victim themselves

yeah um that duality yeah so you know we this podcast does not in any way undermine the guilty verdict or suggest that she didn't pervert the course of justice um but it does ask questions about what else might have been going on in her life um but you know as i say in the podcast the justice system is really black and white you know you are either a victim or But, you know, as I say in the podcast, the justice system is really black and white. You know, you are either a victim or a villain, you know, and the prosecution said in their opening remarks that, you know, it doesn't matter even if you believe that she may be a victim because she, you know, if you believe that she's lied, then she is guilty of perverting the course of justice. And so, you know, that's all they had to prove that she lied. It's called Unreliable Witness. It's a good name. Liz Lane, thank you very much. That's

available now wherever you get your podcasts telling the story, which you may remember of Eleanor Williams, who was found guilty and sentenced to eight and a half years in prison. Many messages, I have to say, also still coming in this morning. I wanted to see if we could have time to go through some of those. Not least, coming back to the new law in Scotland. We were talking at the beginning about J.K. Rowling challenging the police in Scotland, where she lives in Edinburgh, to arrest her.

This is the new hate crime and public order, including stirring up hatred to do with a transgender identity and the leaving out of women in scotland the police decide whether to charge people every single day they do not decide whether to prosecute that's up to the fiscal office police training is another matter altogether this whole argument's getting crazy it's horrifically polarized lots of what ifs and what abouts. This act is needed to protect vulnerable people in a society filled with hatred. James listening in Dundee. Another one here, the issue of trans rights is very polarised. This debate lacks nuance and empathy. I still have an open mind, but having seen J.K. Rowling's deliberate misgendering, and I feel that just because

you can say something, it doesn't mean you always should. But another, I 100% agree with J.K. Rowling. This country has always enjoyed freedom of speech and it seems to be coming to an end. I have nothing against transgender people, but a man who is biologically born a man is a man. It shouldn't be classed as stirring up hatred just because it's stating a fact, says Alex, who's listening.

And for those who felt moved, and many of you do, to have been in touch about what you heard from Rachel, the actor Rachel Sterling, who's talking about caring for Dame Diana Rigg, her mother, at the end of life. Please thank her for that,

says Jane in Cumbria. Me and my family have just come through with my dad's illness and death in the last few weeks, I'm so sorry, and had the same conversations as she did with her mum, with an incredibly bright man who was ill and suffering.

The journey of the privilege of taking care of him was incredibly precious for us all. But as a sufferer, my dad probably had enough well before his end came. I agree with Rachel and her much beloved mum. Rest in disruption, Dame Diana Rigg. And well said to Rachel. Jane in Cumbria, very sorry for your loss,

but thank you so much for writing in and so many messages this morning. Thank you. It's actually going to be one of my last programmes, only six left. This is what I'm going to miss, all of these interactions. Thank you very much. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, this is Kirsty Young. I just wanted to let you know that Young Again, my podcast for BBC Radio 4, is back. I'm telescoping two bits of the story together. That's OK. It's only memory.

It's only show bits. We can say what we like. In Young Again, we're joined by some of the world's most intriguing people. Bill was the CEO at Microsoft at the time. And I ask a simple question. If you knew then what you know now, what would you tell yourself? Be very, very careful about the people you surround yourself with. I gave too much power to people who didn't deserve it. Subscribe to Young Again on BBC Sounds.

I'm looking forwardlevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.