Woman's Hour - Scottish rape survivors, Writer Natasha Walter, New research on the Y chromosome and male infertility

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

A group of women who were raped by the same man are now coming together to campaign for better treatment for survivors of rape in the Scottish justice system. After his sentencing, the women were photographed arm-in-arm outside the high court in Glasgow, having forged a close bond. Catriona Renton, reporter and presenter for BBC Scotland, joins Nuala. Writer and activist Natasha Walter joins Nuala to discuss her new, very personal book, Before the Light Fades: a memoir of grief and resistance. One day in December 2017 Natasha's mother Ruth took her own life. Natasha overwhelmed, by grief and guilt starts to look back through Ruth's history, trying to understand how her life led to this death. Last week scientists in America announced that they have taken an important step in understanding the human genome- our genetic blueprint- by decoding the Y chromosome which is passed from male parent to male offspring and determines biological sex and fertility. Professor Chris Barratt, head of Reproductive Medicine at Ninewells Hospital and the University of Dundee Medical School explains the implications of this research in relation to male infertility. Next to Normal is a Pulitzer prize-winning production currently on stage at the Donmar Theatre in London. At its heart Diana Goodman is a suburban wife and mother living with bipolar and haunted by her past. We speak to actor Caissie Levy playing Diana and birder and environmentalist, Mya-Rose Craig whose recent book Birdgirl talked about the impact on her and her family of having a mother with the same diagnosis. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucinda MontefioreOpener 00:00 Rape 01:20 Natasha Walter 10:32 Y Chromosome Breakthrough 22:23 Bipolar Mothers 30:19

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. We have Natasha Walter with us today in studio. She's written a book, Before the Light Fades. Natasha's mother took her own life at 75 and the consequences of that action have given rise to this beautiful memoir of both grief and resistance. So I'll chat to Natasha soon.

Also today, scientists have fully sequenced the Y chromosome. This is for the very first time. And it could have far-reaching consequences for subfertile couples as 50% of fertility problems within a heterosexual couple are due to the man. So some sort of equality

in that particular statistic. And getting better with age. We're going to hear from contemporary dancers in their 70s and 80s on what it's like to perform when one is older. And I'd like to hear your stories of performing at an older age. All disciplines are welcome. You can text

the programme. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. WhatsApp or voice notes. The number for that is 03700 100 444. And we'll also speak about Next to Normal, a rock musical about mental health. But let me begin with a story you may have

caught a little of this morning. A group of women who were raped by the same man are now coming together to campaign for better treatment for survivors of rape in the Scottish justice system. Jennifer McCann,

Hannah McLaughlin, Hannah Reid and Holly Prowse waived their anonymity after Logan Doig was jailed for nine and a half years for a series of rapes and sexual assaults. After his sentencing, the women were photographed arm in arm outside the High Court in Glasgow, having forged a close bond.

Here are Jennifer, Hannah and another woman, also called Hannah, reflecting on the support they gave one another. None of us would have any reason to know each other. He's the only common denominator and that's would have any reason to know each other. He's the only common denominator and that's the only reason we do know each other. We all came together in a group chat that was called Safe Space and that's just exactly what it was and we got to know each other in that capacity, in that group chat, just sharing bits and pieces about what had happened to us and we soon began to realise that we'd actually experienced near enough the

same and then the trust just grew where we felt like we could confide in each other and without that group chat we never would have made it to trial. Jennifer McCann, Hannah McLaughlin and Hannah Reid there. Let's speak about this further with Katrina Renton, a reporter and presenter for BBC Scotland. Welcome to Women's Hour, Katrina. There were five women who gave evidence against Doig, but the fifth exercised her right to anonymity. Why did the four of them, as you understand it, decide to speak so publicly? Good morning, Nuala.

Well, this is a story of friendship and support that's been born through adversity. As you heard there, Hannah McLaughlin, Hannah Reid and Jennifer McCann talked to me at the weekend. Holly couldn't be there for our interview, but they found each other because of their rapist, Logan Doig. Now, it's quite complicated, but Hannah basically found others through knowing who former girlfriends of Logan Doig's were, etc. And ultimately, they came together on this group chat. Now, the women didn't know each other. They had no reason to know each other. And the attacks, I should say, didn't all take place in the one place.

It was over across a large area of Scotland. The only common denominator was the man that abused them, this Logan Doig. Now, Hannah found out, as I said, about the ex-girlfriends he'd spoken about. They chatted. They built trust and bonds together and they were able to help each other, but because they understood what each other had gone through. Now, they told me about the difficulty of the whole process of dealing with a rape crime in Scotland, how at each stage, whether it was reporting to the police. Hannah M, as we know her, told me that she'd plucked up the courage to go

to the police to report the crime. But when she got there, she was told she was at the wrong police station and had to go to her local police station. And she said, at that point, it's hard to keep motivated. It's hard to, you know, the support wasn't even there at that stage. And Jennifer told us that she was in the dark about what would happen at court, the sorts of questions that they would be asked, that there was no preparation, that the women were just put into the dock, as they say, used as a piece of evidence. They didn't feel they were treated as human beings.

They weren't prepared for the type of questioning. They felt that they weren't believed. So there was this strong bond that they had between them, they say, that kept them together throughout the process. I was really struck by the photographs today and I know we're on radio Katrina but to put it across to listeners that haven't seen them yet these are young women that are dressed in brightly coloured clothing linking arms smiling at the camera talking about the adversity they've come through and campaigning for change, really.

And I think, in a way, it probably raises awareness in a way that the written word without seeing people cannot. Yes, absolutely. And isn't it a powerful image? That's the reason why, when I saw that picture, that I got in touch with the girls for exactly that reason, seeing something that probably we'd never really seen before. This is a group of young women that had all come together. Two of the girls were raped when they were teenagers.

I mean, this has been a long process that they've gone through. The actual crimes go back about 10 years. But they've been together for a process for two and a half years from when the reporting of the crime started. Now, something that we spoke about, your producer spoke to me about earlier was, why are they allowed to speak to each other during the trial? Well, they weren't, and that was an issue

that actually they found very difficult to deal with because while they had this bond, the group chat, they weren't using that to corroborate or collaborate their stories, they told me. What they told me they were doing was they knew, understood the experience of each other. But of course, you know, a fair trial, they aren't allowed to speak,

witnesses aren't allowed to speak to each other during that process and they could only speak afterwards. So I think what you see there in that image is these girls linking arms together they've seen they've been able to get back together the relief of being able to talk about their shared experience of the the ordeal that they went through in court but also you know this business that they they all sat in the front row together they held hands they were there for each other and it's it's indescribable this bond that they have and you really have

to see it to believe it. And I know they mentioned in your piece as well, Katrina, that there was accusations of collusion which of course they denied. But what are they looking for? I should also let our listeners know, they will know if they're regular listeners to the

programme, that conviction rates for rape and attempted rapes are poor across the UK. But in Scotland, they're the lowest of any crime type. That's right. And the statistics in Scotland are really, when you look at them, quite concerning that of the

data that is collated, in 2020-21, 51% of rapes that got to trial, and the actual number that actually ever get to court, you have to look at, is really minute. 51% of them were in conviction. But if you compare that to other crimes,

91% of them end up in conviction. So there's a big area to cross here. Now, these girls want this all to change. They want people to be able to report, but they want the experience that they have when they report to be educated. They want education in schools. They want people to understand what consent means. They want defence lawyers to treat them differently in court. These girls felt that they were being treated like they were liars. Of course defence lawyers have got their job to do. They want advice on what to expect when they get to court and you know something that I think really strikes me, and when we've looked at other cases that have

been in the news recently, they would like the chance to read out their victim impact statements in court. At the moment, that's not common practice in Scotland. And that's something that they're really calling for change, a chance to, when their attacker was found guilty, to be able to look him in the eye and say, this is what you did to me. And of course, that question came up again with Lucy Letby. They're just the other week as well, with families calling for it in that instance as well.

But the women have met with the Lord Advocate, Dorothy Bain, to discuss some of the changes for future victims. How would you describe the response that they've had? Well, Dorothy Bain put out a statement to us yesterday through the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service saying that she was very grateful to meet with this inspirational group of women. And she said that they spoke very eloquently and highlighted their significant concerns around the challenges that survivors face in the criminal justice system. And, you know, at her invitation, they told her about what they'd gone through. And that will feed into a review

that she is doing on how sexual crimes are prosecuted in Scotland. And I have to say, the Scottish Government are taking this extremely seriously. The Scottish Government have said they're clear that they must take action to improve the experience of those who suffer sexual abuse. Of course, the Crown Office and the Scottish Government are separate. But what is happening is that the Scottish Government is putting through a bill at the moment called the Victims, Witnesses and Justice Reform Scotland Bill. Now, it's making its way through Parliament. It has been informed by the Lord Justice Clark, Lady Dorian's review of the management of sexual offences. And it looks at all sorts of changes that could be brought in, like, for example, trials that are heard

just by a judge with no jury, the ways of taking evidence, pre-recorded evidence from witnesses in these kind of cases and complainers in these cases, so that they don't have to go back and rehearse and rehearse and rehearse that evidence in front of the person that abused them. These are measures that the girls have told me that they think would definitely improve the experience for people going forward because what they have said is they're trying to turn their pain into power so that no other man, woman, young person, young girl, young boy

ever has to say, me too, again. And turning pain into power, you mentioned it there. They have done a podcast. It's five minutes on Turning Pain Into Power. It's on BBC Sounds, if you'd like to listen to that. Katrina Renton, thanks so much. Thank you. I want to move to my next guest, Natasha Walter. She's a writer. She's an activist. She's joining me now to discuss her new beautiful personal book, Before the Light Fades. It's a memoir of grief and resistance. One day in December 2017, Natasha's mother, Ruth, took her own life.

And Natasha, overwhelmed by grief and guilt, then begins to look back through her mother's life while trying to understand her death. Natasha, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. It's so good to have you here. I mentioned your mother's death there. Your mother had talked about taking her own life, I understand, but you didn't expect it. I really didn't expect her to take her own life.

Her suicide came as a huge shock to me and I was really derailed by the grief and the guilt that I felt in the immediate aftermath. But when I look back and thought about her last days, even her last weeks, her last months, it was clear to me that she had been planning her death for some time. And if I was honest with myself, you know, she had told me about that. Did you hear it?

Right, exactly. I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready to listen. And I didn't meet her in that place. And I have a lot of regret about that. And I ask myself, even to this day, you know, could I have been braver? Could I have had better conversations with her? Why was it that I didn't really expect, to be honest, I didn't really expect expected her to follow through. You know, I think we often as children, maybe we underestimate our parents if we think of them in old age. And she seemed

like a timid person. She was very anxious. She spoke about the fact that she thought she had dementia, but it didn't seem to me or to others that it was, you know, all that real. It didn't seem to be impinging on her quality of life. She didn't have a formal diagnosis. So it was very, very hard for me to believe that she would follow through, that she really wanted to leave life. That seemed incomprehensible to me. I wonder, though, listening to you, Natasha, and I wonder what my listeners are thinking as well. I mean, can a child ever meet their parent in that place? Maybe not. And now I feel I don't feel that that terrible guilt maybe as strongly now that I did then.

But I do feel a regret that she did feel rather alone. I think she did have a friend that she talked about it with and I was glad to find that out after her death and to speak to that friend who was able I think to have more open conversations but you know these are difficult conversations to to have and and as I say I didn't expect her to follow through but as I thought about my mother and as I grieved her I also wanted to understand you know how this particular death arose from her particular life. And in thinking about her life, and in thinking about her as a young woman, I came to you know, she was a very courageous, very decisive woman who lived life on her own terms. So maybe it wasn't so completely incomprehensible, though still, I find it difficult, you know, so completely

incomprehensible that she chose to die on her own terms as well. She had a remarkable life. She did, yes. She was the daughter of German Jewish refugees. She was brought up in quite a conventional and quite sort of suburban way. But she really, you know, went out there in the late 50s and early 60s. She was part of the nuclear disarmament movement, its most radical wing, the Committee of 100. She started going out and taking part in nonviolent direct action from the age of 19. That was when she was first arrested. that common then for sort of you know very young women from suburban backgrounds to sort of go out onto the streets in this way but she was very determined she acted from real conviction she was always somebody that did what she thought was right even if it flew in the face of convention and it was in the nuclear song movement that she met my father Nicholas Walter who's an anarchist writer. And, you know, they were active together. And that was

a life they made for themselves. It was very authentic. It was quite uncompromising, I think, to some people's eyes. And they took great risks. They ran the risk of quite long prison sentences for the activities that they took part in. Although, in fact, as it turned out, my mother never went to prison. My father only went to prison for a short time for taking part in a demonstration. But she was skirting pretty close to it throughout. Very much so, very much so. And I'm wondering then, because that story is fascinating and it brings us to that time in the UK,

which we often think about the United States in the 60s and the civil unrest, but fascinating to read it in the UK. And of course, with your family history. I think that's absolutely right. I think when we think about the 1960s and the political changes going on there, we often think about the civil rights movement rightly or the anti-Vietnam War movement rightly.

But let's not forget, there's this strong tradition of very, you know, strong political dissent and resistance in this country as well, that goes right through, you know, the suffragettes into the Committee of 100 and the nuclear disarmament movement. And then afterwards, it leaves a legacy through Greenham Common, Extinction Rebellion today. And I really wanted in this book, to uncover that radical political tradition and to think about that legacy, which I think is a very valuable legacy. It's incredible also with your grandparents as well. But I'm just thinking as I'm speaking to you, Natasha, how do you

reconcile that picture of your mother as a young woman? And I can even tell you what she was wearing, the A-line skirts at first and the low heel sandal, which then changed more to perhaps the dungarees and a pair of clogs as the years passed on. But with that timid woman that you described to me at the beginning of this interview. Well, that's it. That's the contradiction at the heart of this book that I started writing about my mother's death. And then I really realised what I wanted to do was write about my mother's life, about her courage, her bravery. And I do think these are quite extraordinary stories. And, and as you say, it also what she realised herself later in life is that she had this amazing political legacy from her father, who was involved in the anti-Nazi resistance in 1930s Germany.

And he was himself imprisoned and tortured. So she also had a legacy to be proud of. And I'm glad to be able to honour these, you know, these traditions. But I think your grandparents didn't really want your mum, Ruth, out there. You know, they had suffered, of course, so terribly. And it was kind of like, don't raise your head above the parapet. Absolutely. You put it perfectly. This is how they felt.

They felt they were scared. You know, as refugees, they'd lost a lot of family in the Holocaust. My grandfather had experienced torture, imprisonment. He went on the run through Europe, you know, hair-raising escape from Prague. When the Nazis marched in, he had to escape out, you know, in front of the France and Gestapo. And it was really, you know, terrifying. And then when they got to Britain, to what they thought would be a place of safety, they were interned here in Britain in the internment camps in the Isle of Man.

So they really wanted to keep their family safe. Who can blame them? You know, they really wanted to live that conventional life of safety. And they were terrified when they saw Ruth going out into the streets and being arrested. So with the book, we go on this journey with you and you begin to, I think, understand your mother better as the pages go on. And you did try many things after your mother's death to try and get to a place

of equilibrium again, everything from yoga to maybe cold water swimming or running, the whole gamut of what we hear. But actually, where you began to find solace was repeating some of her actions,

direct action, should I say, when it comes to some social movements. Yes, that's right. As you say, in the first sort of immediate aftermath of grief, I did the stuff we're meant to do. I did the yoga, I did the swimming, I did the running, I did the gardening. And it did bring me sort of peace of a kind. But I realised that I felt I still felt out of sync with the world. And what I wanted to do was become active again. The despair I felt in the aftermath of my mother's death, it wasn't just a personal despair. I also do feel quite despairing about the way we're going politically, about our current political situation. And thinking about my mother's life, thinking about my grandfather's life,

there are not exact parallels. But what they both did was even at times of great despair and great challenge, they stayed active. They stayed true to their principles. They did what they felt was right. So I found myself kind of inspired by them. And I went out myself. I joined in with the social movement arising at that time, Extinction Rebellion, and found myself being arrested alongside others during those rebellions of 2019. What did that feel like, getting arrested? I mean, was your mother in your mind at those points? my mind as I say I don't think they're direct parallels with what they're facing but certainly there was a sort of there was a sense of a of a living legacy that wasn't just personal but also political as I say it's very interesting there is this radical political tradition in this country

so often forgotten that I think rises again right now in Extinction Rebellion in Just Stop Oil and people who say this is a threat to democracy, no, this is the health of our democracy, that we are able to express dissent when our leaders are really going off course. But what about the people that would say the tactics of Extinction Rebellion or other similar tactics you talk about, Just Stop Oil, that they actually turn more people away from the cause

that they're trying to promote? Well, there's no evidence for that. And in fact, there seems to be evidence that if you have this kind of radical wing that's trying new ideas, then you can move more people. Look at the suffragettes. People are still arguing what role did the militant suffragettes play in it. But it's vital for really strong and successful movements always to have a radical wing and to see people that are prepared to go out and break the law for their convictions, I think is very, very important in a democracy.

Did you find solace through being part of a larger movement? Yes, I did. I found solace, but also I found hope again. So you feel hopeful now? Yes. And I bring that back really to the beginning of the book as well, because I felt for your mother through your words that she had lost hope somewhat at the end. Yes. I think she did. And she felt, I don't think she felt despair exactly, though. I think, and it's impossible to say, she's not here to tell whether I'm right or wrong. She felt she'd lived her life, that somehow she'd completed something.

And she chose to leave life at the time she wanted to. Natasha Walter, thank you so much. Before the Light Fades is published this Thursday. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, I want to turn to some research next.

It could help with the diagnosis and treatment of infertility in men. Last week, scientists in the States announced that they have taken an important step in understanding the human genome, our genetic blueprint. So they did this by decoding the Y chromosome, which is passed from male parent to male offspring and determines biological sex and fertility. It is the last of the 24 human chromosomes to be sequenced. The chromosomes, they're tread-like structures.

They carry genetic information from cell to cell. You might be remembering some of this from your biology classes. But one in seven couples in the UK are considered sub-fertile. And we'll talk about that word in a moment. And 50 percent of that is due to male infertility. So to help us unravel the implications of this research for men and for women is Professor Chris Barrett. He's head of reproductive medicine at Ninewells Hospital and University of Dundee Medical School. He's dedicated his career to better understanding male infertility. Welcome professor.

Good morning. How are you this morning? Very well. Can I go to that word subfertile? How would you understand it? Well, subfertile in the definition by the WHO is people have been trying for conception for up to 12 months. And if after 12 months they've not achieved conception, then they're regarded as subfertile. Some of those patients, of course, with time of the next six or 12 months, may achieve conception naturally. But that's a sort of a definition that is used universally. So let's turn to the Y chromosome. How significant do you think this decoding is? This is fantastic science. It's really true breakthrough information. And the way that I would describe it

was that the Y chromosome, we understood sort of 50% of the roadmap. 50% of it was just not known. And as a consequence, it's very difficult to navigate, even if you've got a full map. But if you only got 50% of a map, it's really difficult to know how to go forward. So we know that there are some genes on the Y chromosome that are important for production of sperm and by having a full map the idea is that we can look in further detail and maybe discover some other relationships between the Y chromosome and the production of sperm. So that's why it's exciting it's given us a full map instead of a partial map. So when we're talking about infertility in this context, we're really talking

about low sperm count? Low sperm count is a key manifestation of that, but there may be other things such as the quality of the sperm cells. So, you know, men, for example, produce a thousand sperm in a heartbeat. So it, but also those cells have got to be very functional. So sometimes men have reasonable number of sperm, but they don't sort of move maybe so well or they have trouble sort of getting over certain hurdles. So the genes may also be important in the functional capability of the sperm, not just in the numbers. I feel, Professor, that I have been reading many articles about male fertility increasing. Is that true? Do you know?

That's a bit of a debate. I think there's a lot of information, particularly on studies which are historical, so retrospective studies, going backwards. And there is significant evidence there of a decline in sperm counts, so almost a 50% drop in sperm counts, say from the 1960s. Why? So, okay, so if that's correct, and of course, there is some debate about that. But if that is correct, then the most likely reason behind that is the environment. And there could be many things in the environment, of course, toxic chemicals, heavy pollutants, air pollution, etc., etc. The idea is that the environment has a negative effect on sperm production, which of course it does in some significant cases. So I think there's a lot of discussion about low sperm counts and there is the most plausible explanation is an environmental effect. But that still needs to be studied further. Yes, that still needs, yeah, and a big debate I think that's, but it's desperately needed high

quality research in this area because it's fundamental to know that. This is Woman's Hour obviously and we do have lots of men that listen to the program um but I was talking about heterosexual couples that it is often 50-50 actually when it comes to issues of infertility but if in fact this helps advance the causes, for example, trying to figure out exactly what might be causing male infertility, it does always come back to the woman's body as well. Yes, yes, it does. And I think this is something that perhaps we're not quite so familiar with, is that, you know, if a man is producing very few sperm, then almost always the treatment is going to be that we need to obtain eggs and possibly an operation, of course, for the female partner. So, you know, we're treating one person for an issue in the other person, really.

And that is really an intolerable situation for the future. What couples really want, what men really want, is to take a pill to improve their sperm numbers, improve their sperm counts. Not everybody can go to an IVF clinic and to afford that, and it's not always available, et cetera, et cetera. So ideally, that's what we're trying to aim for in the future. And so could that be on the cards? Well, I think it's not going to be tomorrow.

I don't want to put false hope for people, but I think we have to look forward. And I would imagine in 10 years, we will be having compounds that we can give to men to improve their sperm function. In about a decade. Yes. Do you come across a difference in couples communicating or reacting whether it's male or female infertility? I think there is a well-documented difference in the response because there is a tradition that virility and fertility in men are linked and actually that's not true at all but in some particular groups people tend to associate fertility with virility and therefore

there is quite a strong negative effect of a man being diagnosed as having infertility. And that's something that sometimes women can overcompensate and try and sort of talk to the man and try and help the man as much as possible. So there is a bit of an asymmetry there, yes. But that's largely, I think, now historical. Hopefully, we're moving on from that now. Very briefly, my last question. If somebody is concerned about their fertility as a

couple, what should they do? Go to the GP. That's the best course of action. The GP has the intellect and the sort of resources to deal with that. Thank you so much for speaking to us. That's Professor Chris Barrett,

Head of Reproductive Medicine at Ninewells Hospital and University of Dundee Medical School. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in. Your piece on older women dancing has inspired me. I've been dancing and performing with a group of mixed ability dancers for over 20 years and at 76 I was thinking of retiring.

They reminded me of the joy of dancing. So I'm staying on. Excellent. Glad to hear it. Don't have a name for that person, but thank you for getting in touch. 84844. Now, there are more than a million people with bipolar in the UK. That's 30% more than those with dementia and twice as many of those with schizophrenia. Millions more are impacted through close friends and family. I want to talk about Next to Normal. It's a Pulitzer Prize winning musical currently on stage at the Donmar Theatre in London. And it's an exploration of family and loss as it focuses on Diana, a suburban mom who is struggling with bipolar. And the effects of her condition on her husband and her children are profound.

The treatment prescribed has even more devastating consequences. Casey Levy plays Diana and joins me in the studio. Good morning. Good morning. We also have with us Maya Rose Craig, who was on the Woman's Hour Power List back in 2020. It was the one which celebrated women across the UK making significant contributions

to the health and sustainability of the planet. Maya Rose describes herself as an environmental and diversity campaigner and her recent memoir, Bird Girl, chronicles her mother's struggle with bipolar while also sharing Maya Rose's passion for social justice. Welcome, Maya Rose. Hello. Hi.

Good to have you with us. Casey, let's talk about Next to Normal, a very difficult subject. Why did you decide to participate in it? Well, I saw the show originally on Broadway in 2009 when it premiered and was incredibly moved by it. And really what led me to come to the UK from New York and do this production was the combination of the chance to play this incredibly layered role with incredible music, Pulitzer Prize winning show, and to work with the folks at the Donmar Warehouse and Michael Longhurst, our director. I think, you know, especially now, I'm originally Canadian. I live in New York. I've lived there for 25 years. I'm American now as well. But I feel like Canada and the U.K. have a kinship in catching up with discussing mental illness

in a way that maybe America has been doing a little longer. And I feel like this show finally coming over after having such a following, coming over to the UK, it's a great time because from what I gather in my time here, people are more willing to discuss their experiences with mental illness, especially post COVID. I did read one review that said, you know, often a Broadway musical won't translate to London in the way that some might want it to, but that this one does. So maybe you're right there about timing. But Diana Goodman, who you play, she is struggling with bipolar, the treatments, as I mentioned, as well, including electroconvulsive therapy, also with grief.

How did you prep for that role? Well, I did a lot of research. I did a lot of reading, a lot of speaking with people who have firsthand knowledge of bipolar. I myself have a very regular amount of depression and anxiety, and I'm happy to talk about that. I myself am a mother of two young children. So I bring a lot of who I am to the role. And I feel as though we did a really intensive job as a cast and crew of doing research, having experts come into the room while we were rehearsing, just to make sure that we were doing things properly. And we even actually went back through the script and updated some of the timelines of the visits to her psychopharmacologist, her treatments, just with the newer information that we have, you know, 15 years

later. So it's very well researched as a company as well. It's not immediately what we would think of, right? A musical discussing some of these deeply personal and complex issues. It isn't. And yet, I think the audiences are finding that it's just this incredibly human story, because although it centers around complicated grief and mental illness, I think it touches on a lot of things we all experience in our day to day lives, whether you yourself are affected or you have a family member. And with that family member, I mentioned Natalie there. The impact her mother's diagnosis had on her, how would you describe it? Oh, I mean, I think it's defining for her life. I think she herself, Natalie, experiences some of the highs and lows that Diana does. I think it causes a lot of fear and anxiety in her own life. And of course, in their relationship, being very strained is not really having a mother who was able to mother her in the way she needed. I want to bring in Maya Rose here because you have written about your relationship with your mother, Maya Rose. You wrote the book Bird Girl.

And it was about a passion for birds, but also about your mum struggling. Tell us a little bit more about why you decided to do that. Yeah, it was a really raw decision, actually, because I love birds and nature and I always knew I wanted to write about spending time in nature is because that's how my family family and I coped with my mother's bipolar diagnosis and that's kind of how we held ourselves together um and so I realized that it was this book that was once about nature was suddenly going to get very very personal and when I was asking my mum about it actually um she felt much more confident about that idea than I did. She thought the idea of telling a very, very honest story about what it's like to have bipolar, about what it's like to have a family member who's struggling with mental illness, she felt

that a story like that needed to be put out there. Yes, she's very happy to talk about this publicly. I do want to make that clear to our audience, your mum Helena. But how aware were you as a child of your mum struggling? It was a really difficult journey in that my mum had been struggling for a long time, long before I was born in fact. And so I was very young when she was going through quite severe manic and depressive episodes and I didn't really understand. And it all sort of culminated when I was eight or nine and she had tried to take her own life and she had been hospitalised. She'd been sectioned.

And at this point, we still didn't know what was going on we knew clearly that there were mental health issues but none of the doctors seemed to understand and I think because of that my parents also didn't have the language to explain to me what was going on because they didn't either um and then I think once we finally did get that bipolar diagnosis I was I was still only about 10 and so I think the way that we talk about illness in general is always you figure out what's going on and then you fix it and so instead I sort of went through this almost um grieving process in my early teens where I had the realization that you know no medication no drugs were going to magically make my mum better this was just how

the way that her brain was wired and we needed to figure out ways to cope with that and it was really difficult until I made my peace with that and you were able to make your peace with that how but for my family and I it was spending time in nature um and a big turning point for us was um the period after well she'd gone through a very very severe depressive episode and I felt at the time like I lost my mum actually because she wasn't getting out of bed she could barely talk um she didn't seem very interested in what was going on in my life and we went on a holiday a bird watching trip for three weeks which was probably not anything a doctor would advise to do

um but we did it anyway and it was fantastic and it was like my mum came back to life um and I was spending time with her and I think since then we sort of decided that for us spending time in nature together was incredibly important um and I think after having gotten that diagnosis it did make a big difference because we were working towards how to make this better for her how to help her suffer less and I think the really difficult thing with bipolar actually is it takes years and years to get a diagnosis I think the average is 9.5 years to get a diagnosis and when you're struggling with mental health issues it's so difficult when the doctors aren't even sure what is wrong with

you in the first place, what's plaguing you, I suppose. And we were hearing, you know, a little of the music there of Diana, the character, who's the mother in the musical, really feeling hard done by really by having this medication that dulled some of the joy and the pain. And I'm wondering, how is your mum doing now if it's okay to ask yeah it is in the it's funny actually when I wrote out the first draft of Bird Girl my editor left a slightly sarcastic but not completely note on the epilogue sort of going and everything solved and they all live happily ever after and I had to go like well I know that's not how it works like she still has bipolar.

There are obviously still really difficult moments because the nature of the illness is it never settles. But we have managed to find the correct sort of cocktail of medication. And I think even though, you know, it's very easy to sort of go, oh, I miss the highs and the lows. I think when you get to the extremes of either end, it doesn't feel good. It feels awful, in fact. And so she, in order to sort of keep the family together and keep herself going, actually feels very strongly about taking her medication. But it's been, it's taken probably 15 years to get to this point. Well, that's a reality check. Just before I finish, going back to you, Casey,

what has the reaction been? Oh, it's just been incredible. The audiences are really connecting with us and we feel really excited by, you know, getting the chance to tell this story every night. That is Casey Levy, who plays Diana. We also had Maya Rose Craig. Thanks so much to both of them.

And as you were hearing, Next to Normal is on the Donmar until October 7th. Maya Rose Craig's memoirs, Bird Girl, is available in paperback from the 5th of October. Do join Women's Hour tomorrow. Emma Hayes, OBE,

the English professional football manager, currently the manager of the FAWSL Club Chelsea Women, and the actor actor Carys Anderson rehearsing her new role of Tina Turner in Tina the Musical. She was doing that just as the iconic singer died. So we'll also hear from her. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hello, I'm India Axon and I just want to quickly talk to you about witches. In this series from BBC Radio 4, simply titled Witch, I'm going to explore the meaning of the word today. It is a twisting, turning rabbit warren of a world, full of forgotten connections to land and to power, lost graves, stolen words, and indelible marks on the world. Because the story of the witch is actually the story of us all. Come and find out why on Witch with me, India Rackerson. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.