Woman's Hour - Screen Time, Care Workers, Cook The Perfect

Episode Date: July 30, 2019

The long summer holidays have started and you'll have heard by now that the runner-up of The Fortnite World Cup was Jaden Ashman, a British 15-year-old who won nearly a million pounds. In the run up to the computer tournament he was spending more than eight hours a day in front of a screen. We know that screen time already causes lots of family arguments so what will happen now when your child says gaming could win them a fortune, just like Jaden? We talk to Mark Griffiths, Professor of Behavioural Addiction at Nottingham Trent University and Belinda Parmar who campaigns against tech addiction.Food writer, MiMi Aye’s new book ‘Mandalay: Recipes and Tales from a Burmese Kitchen’ is a celebration of Burmese food, history and culture. Along with recipes, she shares stories about her family and her culinary travels around Burma. She joins Tina in the studio to Cook the Perfect… Red Prawn Curry.This week's Woman's Hour drama is about the care workers who visit old and vulnerable people to look after them, and the pressures carers face. We talk to the real woman who inspired the drama and who spoke out about the challenges of the 15 minute visit system. We also hear from UNISON, which has been campaigning for change in adult social care and more investment in it.Bestselling Young Adult writer Robert Muchamore and debut YA writer Yasmin Rahman talk about how and why they address teenage mental health in their new novels, Arctic Zoo and All the Things We Never Said.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Tuesday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. I'm Tina Dehealy. After a teenager from London won nearly a million pounds at the Fortnite World Cup, what does it mean for parenting? Is your child or teenager now demanding more time to play the game? We've got advice on the way and please do share your stories as well

sticking with teenagers two young adult writers are here to talk about how they address teenage mental health in their novels we speak to the real life carer who inspired this week's drama Flying Visits about the pressure care workers face looking after the old and vulnerable

and a taste of Burma with food writer Mimi A who joins me in the studio to make the perfect red prawn curry. The first ever fortnight's world cup took place over the weekend a staggering 40 million people applied to enter but only a hundred made it to the final in New York to compete for a share of £24 million in prize money. Jaden Ashman, a 15-year-old from Hornchurch in London, went home with almost £1 million as runner-up. Now he was spending more than eight hours a day playing the video game in the run-up to the tournament. His success will no doubt have led to some interesting conversations in households across the country about how much time young people should be allowed to spend playing the game.

How have you approached the amount of screen time your kids are allowed? Is it a constant battle and is it especially difficult over the summer holidays? Joining me to discuss Mark Griffiths, Professor of Behavioural Addiction at Nottingham Trent University and Belinda Palmer, who campaigns against tech addiction. First, let's hear from Jaden following his win about his mum's attitude to playing. Me and my mum have clashed quite a lot. She didn't understand how it worked. So she thought I was spending eight hours a day in my room just wasting my time.

So now that I've proved to her that I can do stuff, I'm really happy. And here's what his mum, Dalman had to say we have struggled a lot a hell of a lot I found it hard because obviously Jaden I was getting phone calls from the school saying he's falling asleep in school and that kind of stuff but he is above average on all of his grades. But, you know, we've had a lot of issues in the household because of Jaden's gaming. And he shares a room with his little brother as well, which doesn't help. There has been cases where he's gone to stare at his dad's nans because I've taken the Xbox away from him. I've actually broken an Xbox. I mean, a headset.

The headset he's actually got here in the hotel that he's brought with him to new york has actually got sellotape at the top some of those issues relatable to many parents listening i am sure um i'd be interested to know what you both make of that mark belinda i think um you know it's really good to hear how honest jayden's mum is about it but i think from fortnight's perspective and the games industry it's totally irresponsible to have such a huge pot of money available to our children and you know while Jaden is a success story he's the exception you know there are for every Jaden there are hundreds of thousands of teenagers or young children who are susceptible to games addiction why is it why is it irresponsible because the amount amount of money, I think there's a couple of issues.

I think the amount of money, the pot, as you said, is 24 million. I mean, Fortnite makes $203 million in a single month. So the volume of cash in this industry is just immense. But the issue is they don't spend it on anything like mental health research, understanding who plays their games. How is it different to young boys and girls aspiring to be footballers? Well, I think, you know, if you compare it to playing a sport or a musical instrument, the thing is, or even watching TV, the TV doesn't cyber bully you. The TV is not designed or,

you know, football is not designed in a way to manipulate and hijack our brains let's not forget that our teenagers are vulnerable you know they're at the stage of their life where their brains are incredibly susceptible to risk and reward some people would say not not all of course footballers haven't exactly been great role models for children and teenagers growing up mark yeah i've got i agree with a lot of what belinda has just said. Again, the football analogy is very good. I think lots of young boys want to become professional footballers, but actually it's a lot better. Yeah, and my daughter's a soccer player as well.

Yeah, what I'm trying to say is the chances of being a professional footballer, either male or female, you're going to have a lot better chance of doing that than actually winning the World Cup at Fortnite. And in fact, Belinda just mentioned that hundreds of thousands of children are not going to be able to do that. It's in the millions, basically. I've spent over 30 years now studying video game addiction, and the good news for parents is that very few children

would actually ever be classed as having a gaming addiction or gaming disorder. I think the issue about Fortnite, of course, as I say, parents are going to be having those conversations this week because children are going to be turning around and saying, look, if I practice this and I play for lots of hours, then I could win the World Cup. But we have to realise the chances of that are infinitesimally small. And I was glad to hear that Jaden's grades are good.

And I think when you are practising for something like Fortnite, it's not going to be unusual because esports players do play 8, 9, 10 hours a day to practise. I think what this competition should have done is actually not allow children to play in the first place, have an 18 age to start with. I do think, I won't necessarily go too far to say it's irresponsible, but I do think we're now having kids that are going to have unrealistic dreams of winning a video game World Cup based on what they're doing in their bedrooms. But listen, you've just hit the nail on the head, haven't you? Very few children go on to develop gaming addictions. Yeah. So surely that means we are looking at people who've become runners-up in a competition.

40 million people applied to enter. Only 100 got to that final. A few won. Eight hours playing for eight hours a day is the extreme, surely? Yeah, and I think addiction is one end, and I think we need to take it seriously. The internet games disorder is now a recognised disorder by the World Health Organisation.

I am the auntie of the first boy who got diagnosed with games addiction in the UK. I have seen the impact and the devastation on a family in terms of relationship with parents I mean Jaden's mum talked about the battle and I use the word battle that she's had with with Jaden you know it causes devastation and it causes so many arguments and I think the other thing is when we look at you know I'm a mum I'm struggling to kind of regulate this with my children and a lot of the parents are I feel that it's a digital sedative that kind of blunts our children's emotions you know I want our children to grow up with empathy

with social skills those are those are skills you have to practice you have to learn at least with the football you're out and about you're learning collaboration you're learning team player you know and while some people will argue oh there's such a team element in fortnight the way it's designed is you can't actually leave the game if someone in your team is uh doesn't want you to so what i'm saying is actually how can it be good to spend eight hours a day at the cost of what yeah belinda let me just bring in a message from kate that's just coming on that point if the boy who won the million pounds on on Fortnite was spending eight hours a day reading science books, would people complain? I think we know what the answer to that is. But is the problem here

that we are using screens, inverted commas, as a catch-all which covers everything? Netflix, how much time you spend on social media? I mean, being on a screen could also be being on your laptop doing your homework for a couple of hours of an evening. Yeah, and no one's on social media. I mean, being on a screen could also be being on your laptop doing your homework for a couple of hours of an evening. Yeah, and no one's anti-tech. I think Mark and I, we share very similar views on this. You know, we're not anti-tech. We're not anti-games addiction.

You know, technology is wonderful for all the benefits it gives us, you know. But the point is here that it's irresponsible the way these technologies and games are designed. You've got the CEO of Netflix saying his biggest competitor is sleep you know these games companies spend no money on research they don't verify the age limit you know the age of fortnite is 13 the age restriction but there are so many children who are under 13 and the companies don't care mark yeah i have to admit belinda's hit one nail on the head there is that the gaming industry do not put any money for research into this you know i work in the

areas of gambling and social media and video games the gambling industry have now put millions of pounds into research the social media companies are putting millions of pounds in research instagram the other day announced a big research pot to look at the very issue of problematic instagram use at the moment the gaming industry are still putting their heads in the sand and say there is no problem out there. As I say, the World Health Organization now recognizes gaming disorder. The American Psychiatric Association recognizes internet gaming disorder. This is something we do need more research on.

And again, the issue of screen time, you know, when I talk about screen time, it's not about the number of hours. It's about the content and the context of that screen time. Because as I say, I mean, my kids will probably say to me, Dad, you're on the screen more than they are. And I am because that's part of my job. It's a functional use. And again, playing six hours of Call of Duty versus, you know, six hours playing mass educational games or whatever, it's a totally different context there. So we can't really talk about screen time as being the kind of elephant in the room

because there's lots and lots of good uses of screen time. And as I say, I mean, Belinda just said she wasn't anti-games addiction. I think she meant she wasn't anti-games. And I'm the same. I have three screen ages. They all spend a lot of time in front of screen-based technologies.

The one thing that my kids don't do that I used to do when I was their age, they don't watch television particularly. And as a parent myself, as long as my kids don't do that I used to do when I was their age they don't watch television particularly you know as a parent myself as long as my kids are doing edu you know doing their education their physical education their chores around the house and they've got those those kind of life you know those face-to-face interaction with their friends to be honest I'm not too bothered what they do with the disposable their disposable time that's left and most children do actually have even after they've done a couple of hours of homework three or four hours when they might be on social media and and playing games but what

they're not they're not watching television it's what we did when we were their age. Fortnite I think there's this big moral panic now you look at some of the headlines in the papers today our success at the Fortnite World Cup is a national tragedy at the heart of this are we worrying about something many people don't understand properly? Because Fortnite is so much more than a video game. It's a platform, a shared virtual space where people socialise. And whether we like it or not,

the genie's out of the bottle. It will be here to stay. It's here to stay. And there are hundreds of millions of people who play it all over the world. So if you are trying as a parent, I did say we give people advice, to manage or to try and control

or know what to do when it comes to their children's screen time, what would you advise? So I think you're right. We don't want to demonise Fortnite. I mean, Fortnite has been a great catalyst to have this debate, which has long been needed in the industry. I think a couple of things I've done, I mean, I'm by no means the benchmark,

and like Jaden's mum, I'm struggling with this every day. I think the first thing is to make sure the games controllers are in a public place because a lot of parents think their kids are playing Minecraft but actually if you look at the top top best-selling video games of 2019 the things like Call of Duty Black Ops 4 Grand Theft Auto Resident Evil 2 so I think firstly is having in a public place the second thing I've done which has been moderately successful is sort of create a pact with other parents to say right as a group of parents whose children all know each other all best friends what can we do collaboratively and then you get away from the peer pressure you know of oh well so and so's allowed it so I think that has been successful and I think the last thing from my side is don't give up we do want our kids

to have social skills and empathy that's what we're fighting for so don't give up keep going I know it's a struggle Belinda thank you very much and Mark very quickly some advice from you well I say I think parents have to get involved with the children know what games they're playing you know I was part of the one of the people that got the age ratings on video games way back in the early 1990s a lot of parents you, they're giving inappropriate games to their children. You know, and I know there are, you know, I look at my son when he was 12 years old. Everybody in his class was playing 18 plus games, Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty. This shouldn't be happening.

So parents, get involved, find out what your children are playing. And actually, you know, just try and foster it so that, you know, you give game time as a reward for doing other things that you want your children to do. Mark, thank you very much indeed. Food writer Mimi A's new book Mandalay, Recipes and Tales from a Burmese Kitchen, is a celebration of Burmese food, history and culture. Along with recipes, she shares her family's stories and tales from her culinary travels around Burma. I'm very happy to say Mimi's in the studio with me right now and is about to cook the perfect red prawn curry.

Welcome. Thank you, Tina. Now, Mimi, I'm someone who doesn't cook very often, I will admit. On a scale of one to ten, how difficult is this? This particular dish is a tiny bit of a faff because one of the secrets for this is that you have to use whole prawns. So they have their heads on them still. But I mean, in terms of the book itself, my book's called Mandalay and it is the whole range.

So you've got some way you have like a handful of ingredients you toss together. We're big on salads and you've got stuff where you can be just sat next to a cooker for hours. So, you know, your skill level is not dependent on you like enjoying something from the book basically what are you holding right now i'm holding tupperwares i couldn't creep in earlier so basically i'm i've got the sauce i cooked um in advance so this is um like a tomato paprika and turmeric based sauce um and i kind of cooked this down using a technique called which means the oil returns. What does that mean?

So basically it means that you start off with probably a bit more oil than most people are used to because the Burmese really like oil. What type of oil? Any neutral oil. So you don't want anything strong flavoured, so nothing like olive oil. So I tend to use ground nut or rapeseed oil. Sunflower oil is also fine and so what you do is you get lots of onions we're very big on onions um some tomatoes um garlic um and then you kind of cook it with love i would say you kind of have it on a medium medium low

heat and you just let it simmer away until everything breaks down so you're not mincing all of the vegetables very finely from the start they can be sloppily done as you like but that heat just kind of like turns it into a nice mellow mush basically okay so that's what I've got here I like to think I approach my cooking on the rare occasions I do cook with love I'm not quite sure it works out in the way I want it to how do you know when that's ready so I said it's called which means oil returns and what that means is that when everything's all cooked down and nice and broken um the oil that you put in at the start kind of reappears like around the edges in a ring

and so that's why sebian oil returns so you see that rise up and you go oh okay this is ready because I can see the oil again. And how spicy is Burmese food? So Burmese food is one of those cultures where we like all ages to be able to eat everything. So we don't tend to put chilli in stuff from the get go. What you have is, and I've actually brought some, you have things like chilli oil. I love spice. You have things like chilli oil or pickled chilies or roasted chili flakes at the table to add so it's kind of according to your own taste and heat level

basically that sounds sensible when did you first start cooking um so my i didn't actually start cooking until i went to university so that would be probably about 20 20 years ago let's say um but i've always kind of been uh kind of camped in my mother's kitchen watching everything that she did um we ever since i was little we used to go to burma every other year and so i'd be camped out at my aunt and aunt's house my grandmother's house we'd go to restaurants when my parents are big foodies and you know i owe a lot to them for my my taste let's say and so it meant that we were always kind of like tasting things trying things bullying people to let us know what they put in their dishes that their secret ingredients were

so I've always kind of been absorbing all of this stuff but I don't think it was until college that I was actually let loose into a kitchen to be fair and how did it go well well clearly very well you're here now it went well enough it's funny I remember when I was in my first year actually um we did god I don't know if they still do it now it's probably completely on pc but we did those horrible things where you have like slave charity auctions so you'd go up and say I will do your ironing for a week and raise money for charity charity. And I did one where I was just going to cook for people. So I just spent a day cooking lots and lots of food for people. And that was really nice, actually. I wouldn't be sure about how to define Burmese food.

What characterises Burmese food? So one of my friends refers to it as Indian food on acid. Probably a fair fair description um i think in terms of if you're familiar with other um cuisines from the region southeast asia i'd say it's most similar to malaysian food because we have that kind of ethos where we we we have like a a range of we have curries that are similar to indian curries we have salads that are similar to thai salads we have noodles that are similar to Indian curries. We have salads that are similar to Thai salads. We have noodles that are similar to Chinese noodles. So, you know, whatever takes your fancy, what your mood is in,

you can go and have it. And it's still Burmese food. How's the sauce getting along? It's going fine. It's fine, actually. It's just warming through. And what's going to happen is that I am going to... The prawns I'd already marinated. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to get the prawns and I'm just going to heat them through until they cook, basically.

How long will that take? Probably about, I don't know, a couple of minutes. Really quick because it's prawns and you don't want them to go, you know, hard and woolly, basically. But how do you know when they're done? Because they stop being transparent. Okay. That's how you know.

You don't want to go any further. Sorry, I'm asking really basic questions. Oh, no, not at all, not at all. I mean, that's the thing about seafood. If you kind of let them go a bit too far they start getting chewy and you don't want that you definitely don't want that so okay um well i think we're going to come back to you um in a little bit uh for a food tasting before the end of the program um you're very good at multitasking you're cooking and speaking to me at the same time. You went from law, didn't you, studying law at Cambridge to food writing. How did that happen?

Do you know what? There were a surprising number of foodies in law and vice versa. So I was a solicitor. And then after that, I kind of decided I didn't like being a lawyer very much. And I went into publishing. But then it was still legal publishing. But the thing is, I think you start to hang out with people that like words, like talking about stuff that like talking about food you get that overlap and then people I started a blog many moons ago um and you kind of have that thing where people say actually why don't you talk about something you really love your real passion and that's food it's not law unfortunately um so yeah I started writing about food and then I started writing about Burmese food specifically because people said there wasn't a lot out there in the western world so um and that's you know how I ended up writing about specifically Burmese food

and how I specifically ended up writing a book all about it well if it helps I also started doing law and here I am now so that didn't work out for me either. There you go. We'll come back to you in a little while. Thanks, Mimi. Now, in September, Women's Hour will be celebrating BBC Music Day by focusing on music and dementia. We'd like to hear from you if music has helped you connect with and care for a relative.

Has it provided a focus for shared memories and remembering happy times? If you've got dementia, does talking about and listening to music help you maintain your relationships with family and friends? We would love to talk to you. Please do get in touch. You can do that through the website or on Twitter. Now this week's Woman's Hour Drama Flying Visits is all about the pressures faced by care workers who are pushed to the limits by home visits that last just 15 minutes. The inspiration behind the drama was a real-life care worker, Caroline, who frustrated with the difficult decision she was forced to make during quarter-an-hour care visits, decided to speak out about the failure of the system. Now Caroline made

an impassioned speech to counsellors and successfully got Southwark Council to stop using them. It was one of the first councils in the country to do so. Caroline's with me now. I'm also joined by Donna Rowe-Merriman, who is Senior National Officer for Unison with Responsibility for Social Care, and by Ian Hudsworth, Chairman of the Local Government Association's

Community Wellbeing Board. Care and by Ian Hudspeth, Chairman of the Local Government Association's Community Wellbeing Board. Donna, can you start off by just telling us what a home care visit is for people who don't know? Yeah, it's personal care provided in the home, either when you've just come out of hospital or for a longer term basis. And it's providing things like personal hygiene, it's looking at simple treatments medical treatments like helping people take their medications toileting problems with if they are immobile in any way what it's not is housework or shopping or making beds because that can actually be an additional charge from

either local authorities or can be sourced elsewhere. Caroline what's it like doing a 15 minute home visit? It's a rush job because you're dealing with people that need to be looked after with dignity. If you're looking after somebody for 15 minutes you if you if you thought about what you do for yourself in 15 minutes can you actually do this for somebody who might be suffering from dementia, who could be blind, they could be deaf, they could be walking on a frame, they might take five minutes to answer the door for you. When did you start doing them?

I've been doing this job for 30 years, and it's changed a lot in that time. When did you start doing the 15-minute care visits? Quite a few years ago, maybe about 10 years ago. And what happens if you go over? Well, that's in your own time. If you come across that you can't get done in 15 minutes, then all it does is it has a knock-on effect for the next one and the next one.

How many people might you see in a day, in a typical day? You could see up to eight people a day, but then you'll be going back and forth because it'll be four visits. So you'll be going back and forth all day. Is your travel paid for? It is now, but it wasn't. OK. And how much, if you don't mind me asking, do you get paid? I get paid the London living wage because Suffolk signed up for the evangelical care charter that was part of me

going to the council as well so that the carers got better terms and conditions and the service users got better quality time. Donna is this typical of what you hear? It's actually in some ways it's not typical because many of our members in the sector don't even earn what we call the real living wage. They're on the minimum pay rates for what is actually quite a skilled job. What is the problem with 15-minute visits? Because surely you can fit in seeing more people in need in that time. Well, the problem is in 2015 nice recommended home care visits should last 30 minutes and that's to so that councils can fulfill what they need to

do by law under the care act but what we're finding is that one in five councils around the uk are still commissioning 15 minute visits against the recommendation of of nice um which it is just a recommendation but clearly if there's a clinical need identified for 30 minutes, then anything less is cutting corners and going to impact on the dignity and safeguarding of our vulnerable citizens. Is this about money at the end of the day? Is this why we're in this situation um i think i think in terms of money it's always going to be a problem when we look at commissioners and this is where the ethical care charter comes in when we look at commissioners it's up to them to commission

a service and adequately assess what it's going to cost um not rushing down to the lowest common denominator of what's the bottom line we should actually be saying what should people be paid how should they be treated and delivering in that way and i think that what we're what unison is saying is that actually social care needs to be transformed and that's got to be something that's across across the whole political spectrum really it needs to be tackled on a far bigger scale than it's been tackled before to deliver a 21st century service. I mean, I don't think there's any argument about the fact that this is a crisis. Boris Johnson talked about fixing the crisis in social care on the steps of Downing Street last week.

Ian, why are councils in this situation? The issue is around funding. We've been having to take some really difficult decisions over the last six years. Our budgets have been cut by around 40% and we've had to make some incredibly difficult decisions. By 2025 we think there'll be a shortfall of £3.6 billion across the social care sector and as i say we've got to balance the book somehow i think the main thing is that sometimes 15 minute visits are appropriate if there's multiple visits during the day however if there's a clinical need then a 30 minute visit is what we'd be recommending to all our councils to make sure that people have that and more importantly actually

social workers are able to do the job because it's an incredibly difficult job and it's really important that people have the time to do that job. And so rushing in and thinking all the time, watching the clock, is not good enough. And I think that, you know, 30 minutes is what we should be aiming for, but there are funding issues that have made some incredibly difficult decisions and some councils may have taken those decisions, which are unfortunate. I think the main thing we were saying to the new Prime Minister is that let's have the publication of the social and health care green paper,

which has been delayed three times. We want to get it out there. We want to have a conversation across the country about how we fix social care, and it shouldn't be about party politics we shouldn't be playing off against each other we all need to work together to find a solution because we've got the long-term plan for the nhs which has got the injection of 20 billion pounds but if social care isn't working then nhs won't be working either because it means we can provide care at home where people prefer it.

People don't want to be in a hospital. They prefer to be at home. But if we haven't got that funding, then, of course, these difficult decisions need to be taken, which does impact on social care workers that we hear about. Ian, thank you. You represent England. Donna, what's the situation across the rest of the United Kingdom? I think the situation about the 15-minute visits is that they are across the rest of the United Kingdom. We think the situation about the 15-minute visits is that they are across the rest of the United Kingdom. We can find them in Scotland, in Wales and in England.

So the reality of how you can access care and what it will cost you is different where you live. And obviously we've got English devolution just kicking in line as well around social care. But the Unisys Ethical Care Charter works with councils and helps support councils in their commissioning process so that we can we can do this i mean let's just break it down if you're talking about the the minimum living wage you're saying for somebody to do something in 15 minutes

we're charging two pounds just a little over two pounds for somebody to deliver personal care to your relative or loved one this is you know it's I think what I can do that's a coffee I mean it's also that's funding is is of course an issue but it's also about the attractiveness of the job and making the job more appealing because there aren't as I understand it enough people wanting to do care work no there's definitely care assistants are one of the skill shortages in the uk um but actually when you go on to online to sort of sign up for this job if you look on one of the recruitment websites the first thing it says is it's a tough job and it is a tough job you need to be resilient

you're the front line of a multi-billion pound care sector um and you need to be um prepared for anything when you walk through the door are you dealing with people with complex care needs who've been assessed to say yes we want to live in our own home independently with support but actually that's the important thing it's with support yeah i should just um mention in case people are wondering what that noise is and no it's not either not any of us um it's mimi who is cooking a red prawn curry for us in the studio just bring in this email um from somebody who says i'm trying to to call in to give a positive positive perspective i live in scotland and my mother-in-law lives with us can we please have some uk balance to the program there you are um caroline at what point did you decide to speak out? Was that triggered by a particular incident? It was triggered because you're just rushing round

and you're not giving the good quality care that you should be giving. So it has a knock-on effect with you as a person. So it comes to the point where, you know, you was getting up, it's groundhog day, you're doing the same thing. So I went to my local branch secretary at the time and she was the one who said if you know come with us to

the council and that's what I've done and I sat down and and I said to him you know how long does it take you to get ready in the morning because if you can do it in 15 minutes or less can you come and work with me and you're campaigning meant so that council banned them and you're also the inspiration for the drama that we're playing this week on women's hour have you heard it yes i heard it yesterday how do you feel about it yeah yeah it reflects what happens and i can't wait to see if the man goes with her don't give too much away away. Caroline, Donna, Ian, thank you very much indeed. A red prawn curry is being cooked in the studio as we speak and I'll be doing a

tasting at the end of the programme. Very much looking forward to that. Now my next guests are authors of young adult fiction who are here to talk about how they deal with teenage mental health issues in their work. Robert Muchmore is the best-selling author of The Cherub Series. His new novel, Arctic Zoo, follows two teenagers living very different lives in Britain and Nigeria. I'm also joined by Yasmin Rahman,

who's just published her debut novel, All the Things We Never Said, which explores the life-saving power of friendship. Welcome to a very fragrant studio. Good morning. Sounds very nice. Now, Arctic Zoo, Robert, starts with a group of children in a therapy session

at a mental health unit. Then we learn about the backstories of two of them, Julius and George, and how they got there. Loads of twists and turns along the way great story great characters but what led you to start in in a teenage mental health unit uh came out of a very personal experience in 2012 when i was very very depressed and i ended up spending time in a psychiatric hospital myself uh and interestingly the hospital had had an adolescent unit as well. So quite a lot of the group therapy sessions, the older adolescents and things like that were in the same groups.

And it was really fascinating because obviously as a children's author or a YA author, you're always kind of looking for ideas and looking for stories. So even though it was kind of in some ways the worst time of my life, I did find these characters incredibly interesting uh just listening to their problems and the way they felt about the world so that all kind of folds into the story of the book i mean it sounds like that must have been really challenging to write about given that it's partly based on personal experience yeah and i mean this happened

in 2012 and i think you know i wrote the book about 18 months ago and i think that was the earliest that i really could have coped with writing about it. Yeah, I definitely needed a bit of distance. I couldn't have written this book, you know, three months after I'd left the hospital. You cover loads of issues, including gay rights in Nigeria and political activism in the UK. Why Nigeria?

Do you know, it was just very much a question of research. Nigeria is a large country with a large English speaking population. So there were just lots of resources to actually research Nigeria in a way that there wouldn't have been with a smaller country. And how much of Julius and George are based on the young people you met while you're in hospital? Obviously, very deliberately didn't make them resemble any specific person. So it's more about the emotions and the concerns about you know academic pressure and parental pressure and relationships so all that stuff comes through but obviously anything that's said in hospital in a group therapy is incredibly confidential so

there's nothing in the book that you could ever say oh that was this person or that was that person yeah i mean all the things we never said is told from the perspective of three teenage girls marine cara and olivia all from very different families different backgrounds but what they share in common is feeling like life is no longer worth living what made you want to write about young people in in mental distress yeah so let me first apologize i've got a very sore throat so i'm going to sound terrible and thank you for coming home with a sore throat um so i I wanted to show that mental health can affect anyone, regardless of their background, their ability or, you know, their upbringing.

When I first started writing the book, it was very much just Mehreen on her own. It was a book that I wanted to write with a Muslim protagonist talking about mental health, which is not discussed very widely in our culture. And then when I was writing it, I just found that her story alone wasn't enough and I brought in the other girls. And I think it works really well to show the different facets of, you know, depression and anxiety and how it affects everyone differently. But ultimately, there is hope at the end for everyone. The conclusion I drew reading it is Mehreen, who also comes from a traditional Bengali family, could be based on elements of your life.

Yes. So there's certainly things that I've taken from my own life, but it's in no way autobiographical. I think her feelings of, you know, the hopelessness and her depression and anxiety are very much from my personal experience. And what about the other girls? There's a part of me in each of them. I like to call them my horcruxes. So there's a part of my soul in each of them. So I think there's things that I started off with as traits of theirs so I think Cara's you know witty snark is very much her humour is very much mine and Olivia the way that she needs she tries to be two different people I think I very much

resonate with that. And Robert about Arctic Zoo you said that you didn't want to make worthy teen struggles mental health issues book how did you make sure it wasn't i mean i mean i i always say when i write a book you know i'm not writing a book about an issue i'm writing a book that you know the 14 year old sitting on the couch bored in the summer holiday wants to read so the issues appear in my book but i'm never heavy-handed and i always want to do it in a way where it's combined with stuff that's actually fun to read i want people to enjoy reading my books and i like to think that's why they've been successful you've got a huge fan base amongst boys and from what i hear even amongst um you know some of the people here working women's hour there are loads of

grateful parents who all say if it wasn't for for your books their son wouldn't read um how does that make you feel it is it's it's an incredibly special feeling and i mean you just get it when you have an event and you have a sort of parent comes up to you and, you know, gives you a big hug. Oh, that was fantastic. Or they give you a little gift or something like that. It really is a very sweet thing to have that. You know, I think so many people do with a job that isn't satisfying. To have that level of satisfaction with what you do is fantastic.

Very rare thing. Is that what you set out to do? I suppose I did indirectly. It was my nephew, Jared, i always say it was kind of my starting point that he was kind of a reluctant reader and he was always in my mind when i was writing so i suppose i did i wasn't consciously trying going for that market it was just writing a cool book for my nephew jared and a book that i would have liked when i was a sort of surly 13 year old boy or whatever i mean we do i think it's fair to say that in a lot of YA fiction,

there is a focus on young women, teenage girls. Would you agree? I think, yeah, I think there's a lot of girls reading it. And I think there is more of a, you know, surgence of male protagonists and coming up with Robert's books. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, people think of books as being very i think yeah i mean it's you know people think of lit books as being very high brow but it's a fashion industry if you'd look to a kid's bestseller list 10 15 years ago when i started writing it was a lot of male orientated thriller adventure type

stories are incredibly popular now that's uh it's you know why is more female orientated um i think it's just fashion things change there are always fans in publishing it will go the other way at some point um how you seem to know teenagers so well how i just say as an author you kind of have to blot things up you know i blotted up my experience in psychiatric hospital i try and speak to my fans if my friends have got kids i'm always asking them questions and you know when you write a book that's not the end of the process. You give it to people. You let them give their feedback. Because it's incredibly hard for someone my age to actually keep up with what teenagers like. So it's mainly just about being open and willing to accept that you're wrong

and to change things when people tell you they're wrong. And I know you've talked about writing, the process of writing being a lonely experience as well. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I can't remember the source now, but I remember reading, you know, they did a big survey on depression and the only two groups of people who suffered significantly higher rates of depression were writers and people doing phds which is obviously a very similar kind of experience um yasmin you call what goes on in in maireen's head which you describe brilliantly you call it the chaos what is the chaos how do How do you depict it? So that part was very much built on my own experience with anxiety. And I found it where it's just, you know, intrusive thoughts that come into your head telling you that you're,

you know, you're worthless, nothing matters. And it's just, it's your thoughts, but it doesn't feel like it's your thoughts. So it feels like it's this other voice in your head telling you all these horrible things and making you believe it. And it gets to a point where it's your thoughts so it feels like it's this other voice in your head telling you all these horrible things and making you believe it and it gets to a point where it's so overwhelming that you just can't see sense and I really wanted to depict that on the page and it just didn't seem enough to have it in normal font so I was very much how does it feel it feels this you know just giant font that's really scratchy and overlapping and everything's just feels like a bit much so I really tried to play with typography in the book. And each of the girls finds a website that matches people with partners to form a suicide pact. It's pretty sinister without giving away too much is it based

on anything in reality? No so when I started the book it was just a way to bring the characters together. I did a lot of research, obviously, when I was writing it, and there are websites that are similar to this, unfortunately, but obviously not as sinister as the one that I've written. And you both, I mean, you start your book, Yasmin, saying that there could be things in there that are potentially triggering. How much did you worry about that? I worried a lot.

I, you know, I'm very, you know, I know that it's a very touchy subject. There's a lot that goes on. And I think my biggest fear is harming someone with the content that's in there. I think it's very important. But I know that, you know, when you're in a very vulnerable position, it can be too much. So I very much pushed for, we've got trigger warning on the back of the book as well. And a list of resources and topics at the back of the book for anyone who needs it. And finally, from both of you, we've been talking on the programme about the panic around Fortnite. Do you think books are standing up to screens? I think we're trying our best. I don't know if we'll win in the end. I don't think there's a fight, actually.

Like, I think each, you know, each exists on their own basis, and you can have a good match of both and I don't think one's doing harm to the other. Yeah, I think Yasmin gave a much better answer than me. I quite like Fortnite. And don't sound ashamed about the fact you're not alone. There are hundreds

of millions of people who do. It's a sign of youth. Yeah, I'll take that. Okay. Thank you both very much indeed. Much more Yasmin Rahm and their books are out now. And now, the moment I've been waiting for. Mimi, is the curry ready? Yeah, I think it is.

Red prawn curry. And you're both here. You can have a taste with me. Why not? We've got three plates here. Oh, wonderful. I brought some rice as well. So I'm just going to try and dish up a little bit of rice and some prawns on each one.

What would you serve it with typically? Rice? Just plain white rice, honestly. Because the sauce itself is quite intense. You know, I was saying before, what makes it special is the fact that it uses the whole shell. Because what it uses is, there's a stuff that in Burmese we call besanzee, which kind of means, I think it's called crab fat when it's in crabs, but it's basically kind of this orange elixir inside the head and it makes everything taste a lot more prawny.

A lot more prawny. A lot more prawny, but it means that it is quite intense as a result. So what you want to do is just have a nice kind of plain foil against it i guess okay and how do you know when that when the curry's ready um so it smells good great um but other than that i mean the so the prawns are butterflied very slightly so what they'll do is they'll kind of spread out very slightly and they'll go completely kind of opaque, basically. So I'm going to come over to grab a taster. Can you just recap the ingredients for me, please?

Yeah. So you have got lots of onions in there. You've got garlic. You've got paprika, some fish sauce, some turmeric, salt and the biggest prawns you can find, basically. So let me just give you some of these prawns. Okay, hang on, I've just taken rice with that. You've just taken a plate of rice, which is fine, but might not be as interesting, I have to say. Okay, it's 10.44 in the morning and I'm eating curry. It's fine.

I mean, it's warm, you know, the weather's warm at the moment, but, you know, fish, seafood at the moment but you know fish seafood stunning that is delicious do you see what I mean about the prawniness though it's very prawny lots of you getting in touch about our fortnight discussion Christopher says creative immersive and visionary gaming is part of our future. We need to embrace it. Screenagers have got it right. Well done, Jaden, for his £1 million win. Jackie says, my son says it's not just about winning the Fortnite World Cup.

Kids are making money live streaming via sponsors and donators. Matt, it would be good if someone discussed the reality that all computer games and devices were designed and manufactured by parents, not our kids. We gave this tech to our kids and now blame them for using and enjoying it. We need to look much harder at ourselves. Samita says times are changing and you'd be better to understand their use, not demonise it. And Tamzin says everybody frames a problem as parents opposing children.

Enforcing rules never works. I'm trying to help my kids self-regulate their screen time. I've talked to them about them controlling the game, not the game controlling them. My children deleted Fortnite after having it for a while on their own. And the last message on this subject in particular from Lindsay, my children earn their small device screen time through outdoor time to a max of one hour a day we enforce age restrictions and enjoy TV time as a family it's all working so far glad to hear it and on care workers some of your

messages coming in talking about our discussion which was linked to this week's woman's hour drama about the pressures care workers face when they have to do 15 minute home visits. Emma says if you want to understand the challenge of 15 minute care time your own getting up, washing, dressing, breakfast. I bet it

takes longer. Now dress your partner and ask him or her to be a bit difficult and also move slowly with help. How long did that take? Now tell me 15 minutes is enough. Those that make these decisions want their heads examining. Sharon, who is a nurse, says 15-minute visits aren't adequate in most cases, especially for a first visit when you're meeting a client for the first time and getting to know their routine and capabilities.

Carers often go above and beyond their duties. I've heard of carers who call in on clients over and above paid calls to make sure they are drinking enough. We need to recognise their commitment properly. Thank you for all of your messages. On tomorrow's programme, actress Gemma Chan, star of Crazy Rich Asians and Humans, joins Jenny to discuss her role in Channel 4's new drama, I Am Hannah. It explores

the pressure some women feel to have children. Thanks for listening. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.