Woman's Hour - Sculptor Susie MacMurray, Fillers, ADHD Late Diagnosis and Women and Forgiveness

Episode Date: October 15, 2020

A striking new female figure can be seen in Kings’ Place in London, and online from this week. Medusa is a tall, headless woman whose body turns into snakes made of chainmail. For her creator, Manchester-based artist Susie MacMurray, the sculpture is a metaphor for women’s power. She and a team of female art students used 300 kilos of copper wire to create Medusa, as part of a new exhibition of her work, Murmur, which opens on 21 October. A free preview tour is also being livestreamed on YouTube and Instagram this Thursday 15 October at 6pm, just search for Pangolin London. Lip fillers and other cosmetic procedures are increasingly popular and there’s even been what the industry is calling a “zoom boom” over the last few months with people wanting to change their appearance after spending hours looking at themselves on their computers. But it’s not just adults turning to fillers, it’s also teenagers who’re often targeted on social media by advertisers and are in part influenced by the celebrities they see on TV shows. What you may not realise however is that it’s completely legal for under 18s to get fillers and it’s an area that is at present completely unregulated. Anyone can administer fillers and there are even reports of people buying fillers online and injecting themselves after watching a how-to session on Youtube. Jane Garvey talks to Laura Trott MP who is trying to get a law passed to stop under 18s accessing filler treatments and Ashton Collins from Save Face. What’s it like to get a diagnosis of ADHD as a woman in middle age? We often associate the condition with much younger people, usually boys, partly because ADHD in girls presents itself in a much quieter way. But Emma Mahony’s ADHD was formally diagnosed when she was 52. She’s written a book called Better Late Than Never, which explores how her diagnosis makes sense of her life and the decisions she’s made.Do women forgive differently from men? Jane speaks to Sandra Barefoot who works in prisons with the Forgiveness Project. She is running creative writing workshops in November with Cecilia Knapp, Young People’s Laureate for London and Anne Marie Cockburn whose daughter died of an ecstasy overdose. Can writing help people find strategies for forgiveness? Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Clare WalkerWebsite image of Medusa courtesy of Ben Blackall

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I know you just want to hear your show, but this won't take long. I'm Miles, the producer of Radio 4's Tricky Podcast. And it works like this. Four people from across the UK meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues they really care about. Because sex work is quite complicated for a lot of people and it's okay to be against it but not to shame someone because of their profession.

Across the series we'll hear anger, shock and even the odd laugh. Another thing that really gets to me is when people say, I know what we need to do, I know what black people... Shut up! You don't, like that's the thing. That's not how it works. Nobody knows. If you knew, you would have done it. Discover more conversations like this by searching Tricky on BBC Sounds. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is Thursday, the 15th of October, 2020. Hi there, good morning. Today we're going to be talking to the artist Susie McMurray, who has made a headless medusa with a body that turns into snakes made of chain mail. It'll be good to talk to Susie McMurray on

the programme this morning. Emma Marnie is with us too on her midlife diagnosis of ADHD. What is it like when that happens to you as a woman in middle age? And forgiveness. Do women and men forgive differently? We'll talk amongst others to Sandra Barefoot, who works in prisons with the Forgiveness Project. You can reach us on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email the programme via the website. We're starting this morning with beauty salons, which are still allowed to give Botox and so-called dermal fillers

to the under-18s. You might recall that early this year we talked to a woman whose 17-year-old daughter had got more than 30 different procedures without ever having to prove her age, even though she had mental health issues. Now, we should say, of course, that the salons and the people who treated the 17-year-old girl were not doing anything illegal. But a Tory MP, Laura Trott, is trying to do something about that.

She wants this industry properly regulated. And her private member's bill is back in the Commons. It's tomorrow, isn't it, Laura? Good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Yes, that's right. It's in the Commons tomorrow for something called its second reading. Right. And is there any opposition to it? Generally, no. I think the most common reaction, for understandable reasons, when I tell people about this bill is I cannot believe that it's not illegal already.

And there's been a huge amount of kind of cross-party working on this. So I'm hoping the passage will be relatively smooth. All right. Why do you feel so strongly about this particular issue? Well, this is something when I've been working on women's health issues for the policy area for a long period of time. And I think it is an area that has historically been overlooked by government. I think that there are not adequate protections in this area for what is a procedure, which is generally done by women.

It's about 92 percent women. And this is a particularly egregious area, I think, for the under 18s. The fact that there are no protections for them from what are unscrupulous providers, because no under 18 needs cosmetic Botox or dermal fillers. Right. Let's bring in Ashton Collins from Save Face, which is an organisation that has been informing Laura Trott, I think it's fair to say. Ashton, let's pick up on that, the notion that a girl of 16, 17, they are almost always, whether they know it or not, and of course they often don't, breathtakingly beautiful. Why would they need this sort of stuff or even start inquiring about it? They absolutely don't need it, like Laura said, and I think that the problem stems from what they see on social media. It's flooded with

reality TV stars and influencers posting about them getting procedures themselves and the filters that they can use enhance their lips and cheeks to make it look like they've been augmented. So that fuels a desire to want these treatments and they have no perception of the risks and so they think they're going along for something that is a general beauty treatment as opposed to a medical procedure that can have devastating consequences if it goes wrong. What is a dermal filler? So dermal filler generally is made of something called hyaluronic acid and it's injected most commonly to plump or augment certain features of the face. Like the lips? Yes, most popularly the lips, yes.

And what would you expect to pay for that? A legitimate treatment would cost anywhere between about £300 and £500. Right, and the person doing it for you who would they be? It can be the industry is unregulated which is part of the problem in a wider scope but we would only recommend seeing a registered healthcare professional so a doctor, nurse, a dentist or a prescribing pharmacist because not only are they familiar with a facial anatomy but if something did go wrong they are able to identify and prescribe the drugs needed to rectify the complications. Right. But I mean, the problem is, I gather your organisation has collected any number of situations and complaints relating to botched procedures.

Tell me about that. Absolutely. And it's just the tip of the iceberg, really. But last year we had 1,600 patients come forward who'd suffered very serious complications like blindness and permanent tissue death. And the vast majority of those were treated by people who are unregulated, unaccountable, often untrained and uninsured. And when something goes wrong, they find themselves being ignored by the person who treated them in absolute turmoil and having to navigate their way then to somebody who is able to manage that complication for them. This is bizarre it's bizarre Laura Trott that this has been allowed to continue as a kind of wild west of treatments when the tattoo industry for

example has got its act together. I completely agree. It's unbelievable that something that you can get done in your home by anyone could potentially blind you is legal. But it is. And I think this is something that definitely needs to be looked at. What my bill will do will make sure it's regulated for under 18s. But there is undoubtedly a case for looking at the wider issue as well. Well, the wider issue being? The fact that this is an unregulated area, that products which are incredibly dangerous,

as Ashton outlined, can cause serious complications for people, are widely available and yet have absolutely no regulation whatsoever. So I think it's something that definitely does need to be looked at more widely. My bill, because it's a private member's bill, has to be very limited in scope. So I've just focused on the under 18s. But I'm hoping this will start a wider conversation, as we're having today, about the industry as a whole. Right. And about a society which makes young women feel this way about themselves, Laura. Completely right. As we've been discussing, it's really awful that any under 18 feels the need to go and have these procedures. And then that people are taking advantage of them because that is what is happening and taking their money to carry these procedures out. And they can go so wrong. And as Ashton rightly says, people just think they're going in to get something which is a very minor, minor procedure. And it's just not. And the horrific, horrific case studies that

Ashton's have are enough to turn anyone's stomach. So I'm really glad that I've got the opportunity to be able to do something about it. Do you think, we keep referring to Zoom, of course, it's become something of a trope, I think, particularly across radio, because we've been using it so much. But do you actually think, Laura Laura that this is having an impact this the so-called zoom boom in cosmetic procedures because so many of us have been forced to see ourselves and we don't like it very much I think the having to look at yourself on a computer screen all day is definitely not a pleasant experience for anyone I think the sooner we can get away from that the better I think as whole, if people want to have treatments, this is not something that I'm necessarily against, and I have no judgment on it whatsoever. But what I do want is for where

people to go, where they decide to go and have them, it needs to be safe in the same way that if you buy nail varnish from a pharmacist, you don't expect it to burn your fingers off. If you go and decide to get botox or get feathers it should be safe for you to do so and we should be very clear that no under 18s need this and that is what my bill will concentrate on but you you take i'm sure you'd agree that it is often male the male gaze male judgment that is out there in social media on social media that makes women and young girls feel so wretched about the way they look. Have you ever encountered that yourself?

What I want is for where people, where they're having these procedures, they're doing it because they want to. It's not quite an answer to my question, so go on. Well, I just, in terms of... Well, you work in a world, you work in a male-dominated world and a very patriarchal environment, Laura, at the Palace of Westminster, all sorts of allegations flying around about the way people conduct themselves there. So what is the answer to the question? So the question being that there is a male gaze and do I think that that is important? Well, have you ever been subjected to it yourself? I haven't myself, but I don't want to put myself,

and I think you've got to be very careful as a politician not to put yourself up as some kind of paragon or example to anyone else. I think where people are going to have this done, for whatever reason, I don't want to judge that, but I do want to make sure that they're safe. And just briefly, how will it work in practice? Will local councils be responsible for policing all this, and how will they do it? So it will work in the same way as you do with tattoos at the moment.

So local authorities will have the power to investigate complaints and to regulate the industry to make sure that under 18s are not being taken advantage of in the way that they are at the moment. Also, police can be involved. There'll be unlimited fines for where providers do break the law, as it will be the law. So it will be both local authorities and police involved in regulating it. Thank you very much indeed. That's the Conservative MP Laura Trott. You also heard from Ashton Collins of the organisation Save Face. This listener says on email, I'm 49. I had a dermal filler from a doctor and had a severe allergic reaction. The doctor didn't tell me about the potential risks and complications and didn't really know how to treat it. I got help from an expert in London and it all took place in lockdown.

It needs to be regulated, but perhaps banned as the consultant who ultimately helped me thought that was the solution. I've been left, says the listener, with discolouration under my eyes and eye bags. So there you are, there's somebody of 49 who had treatment and it didn't work out for them either. Let us know if that has happened to you. You can email us via the website, of course, whenever you like. The artist Susie McMurray is here. Welcome again, Susie. I know I've spoken to you before. We talked earlier and we reckoned it was sometime, well, light years away now, but 2011, would that be right? I think so, yeah. Yeah, and that was about your show Widow, wasn't it? Yeah, it was a piece that was in an exhibition at the Royal Academy, the GSK contemporary show, Art, Fashion, Identity.

Can you move a little nearer your microphone? I'm not sure whether social distancing allows you to get any closer, but let's see if you can. There we go. Right. And this is your new, it's a new show. It opens at the Pangolin Gallery in London next week. That's right, isn't it? Yes, Pangolin London. Right. And this is something, again, that anybody outside London can see online or on Instagram? Yes, there's a live stream of the opening tonight. So we'll be doing a tour of the show, either on Instagram or YouTube. Right, so you're getting used to seeing yourself out there.

I am. In a way, we were just discussing. There's so much we can talk about, not least the fact that Medusa, your Medusa, is this tall, headless woman. There is another statue of Medusa in the newspapers today. This is by the male sculptor Luciano Gabbatti. And it's been put outside the Supreme Court in Manhattan in New York. And not everybody's happy with that Medusa because it's by a man. So tell us about yours. Well, when I researched her, I realized that she was a little bit of, is it fake news?

Is it the telling of the tale? Who tells the tale? And was she punished for being raped or was she punished for seducing? And how do we know who's written the history? So I thought of her as a wronged woman. She's been raped and then punished for being raped and then banished and then in the end murdered for her power. And that's a story that's age old. I mean, that's, you know, it goes back to her and it's been happening ever since. And I thought of her in terms of scapegoating and the conversation she

might have had with Eve, you know. So I wanted to reimagine her. And the French feminists talk about her as not screaming in horror, but laughing and reveling in her power. So I thought about her in terms of sort of flexible woman. And you're literally making, you've made, a flexible version of Medusa. Yes, I sat round with recently graduated artists and students and we made her from scratch, from chain mail. And we didn't buy the chain mail, we had to make the chain mail.

So we bought wire and turned it into rings and then essentially sat round like a bunch of ladies knitting and put her together from scratch. And her snakes, which come out of the bottom of her, are completely flexible. She can be arranged how you like. She can be different every time, which is a very feminine characteristic, I think. Do you arrange her, though? Because you can't just let somebody else do that, surely. Well, usually I do, but at Pangolin they have put her together and they did her so beautifully, I didn't change a thing. Oh, OK, so you I've had to move her. And it is kind of interesting to see when the when viewers see her that, you know, obviously people have touched her and have picked her up and moved her.

And yeah, yeah. I think I'd object if I were you, but you seem quite sanguine about it. What else is in the exhibition? Well, the exhibition is called Murmur. And there's a big wall installation which is made of ostrich feathers and wax and little tiny fish hooks. And it sort of flies across the wall like a sort of avian murmuration. And it sort of came. It was in progress already, but lockdown sort of affected the way I was thinking. In what way?

Well, I was thinking more about escaping and taking flight and celebrating freedom. Precisely because you couldn't. Yes. And my work has always been about the sort of line between danger and power, the sort of ambiguity of how vulnerable we are, but also how resilient we can be. So lockdown really kind of really focused that um so this piece um it flies across the wall of the gallery and it was really exhilarating to put it up and to just be out and down and making something real and new with real people and would you agree that on the whole and and this is sweeping generalisation alert, I'm just letting the listeners know, that artists and creative people have possibly had an easier time of lockdown than many other people? Well, I think it depends.

As long as they had money coming in. Well, exactly. And the Artist Support Pledge has been fantastic to help people with that. That's been a wonderful scheme. But yes, I think, well, you've got something to do if you've got access to your studio, you can go on working. But also, I think it's quite a therapeutic thing. You know, it helps. For me, it's a kind of meditation and it's a kind of thought, you know, it helps me work my thoughts out. So yes, I mean, I have been very lucky to be a maker during lockdown and to have access to the materials I needed to do it. And I mentioned Widow, which was your earlier work back in 2011. There's a big pause, a big gap between 2011 and now. So what has your, what has your life been like and where have you gone artistically and personally in that time? It's been amazing. I've been so lucky. I've had shows all over the place. I've

made installations in great places, met all sorts of interesting people. I think I've learned a lot more about myself, you know, being widowed quite young. You were very young. You were in your 40s, weren't you? Yeah, I was 47. And I can't believe it's nearly 15 years now. And I'm a very different person to who I was back then. And I think being an artist has really helped me with that I can, you know, I use my art to understand myself and to understand the world. Tell me a little bit more about that. Because obviously, this is your gift. How could you benefit other people who have lost a much loved partner at that sort of age? Do you think you have any wisdom this is your gift, how could you benefit other people who have lost a much-loved partner at that sort of age?

Do you think you have any wisdom that you could usefully impart here? Oh, I don't know about wisdom. I don't know. That's very, I don't know. Well, practical advice then. Oh, I don't know. Seize life. I think it's learning to accept both sides of things, you know, accepting the good part and the bad part, you know, understand sort of like Medusa, making friends with your snakes were you know they are you know they're they're they have good qualities as well and you and you know life is warts and all and also the other thing it really taught me is that you know life is short and it's not a rehearsal and you might as well go for it you know

there is a piece in murmur um which is about motherhood um and i thought this was this just illustrates the difference between me average Joanna and you burning with artistic and creative powers so tell me about what you've done mother mother and child well it's a sort of egg-shaped piece of wax it's been dipped and dipped and dipped and it's about well it might be the size of a grapefruit and it's got an umbilical cord of silk velvet red silk velvet coming out of it and it's attached to a um a yearling culled yearlings um deer's horn you know a piece of antler, which still has sort of... Real. It's real, yes. Yes, because you do have to cull deer herds to keep them healthy. So some of them do have to go. And I've been collecting antlers,

and this one appeared in the collection that I got. And it just seemed so poignant, a sort sort of life cut off and the idea of it being separated from its mother and I don't know the sort of power of that connection and I felt that very much during lockdown I felt you know I couldn't get to my children my children are grown up and they don't need me to get to them. But lockdown suddenly made me feel really anxious that I couldn't if I needed to. And so I was thinking about apron strings and umbilical cords and the double-sided nature of that as well

and how the ties that bind are not always benign and sort of looking at myself in between my children and my mother and my relationship with both sides and how it's not easy. And the sort of the desolation of letting go at the same time as the joy of seeing them take flight. And just thinking, you know, lockdown gave me a lot of time to ponder on those thoughts. And the work in the show has sort of come out of that a lot well i'm really glad that people outside london are going to get the chance to see it online or in any other way um thank you very much suzy pleasure always really inspirational to talk to you thank you very much thank you that's the manchester-based artist she's keen to make that

point suzy mcmurray um on this morning thank you su. Thank you, Susie. Take care. Tomorrow, first-time novelist Dolly Alderton is here. Her book, her new book is out. It's called Ghosts. Here's a little taster for you tomorrow. Apparently, I'm told we don't have it or do we have it? Have we got Dolly? I'm just looking to next door. She's on tomorrow. And we're just

going to work out whether we can play you a little taster of that now. We can play it. Here it is. This is Dolly Alderton talking about... I think they choose the people... Oh, she's talked. a little taster of that now. We can play it. Here it is. This is Dolly Alderton talking about. I think they choose. Oh, she's talked. No, let me introduce it properly. She's worth it. This is Dolly Alderton talking about one aspect of her new novel, Ghosts, and dating apps. Here we go.

I think they choose the people to present you with first as a shop window that hooks you in. As we know with all these apps, it's all about making sure you get first as a shop window that hooks you in as we know with all these apps it's all about making sure you get addicted as quickly as possible so you will always be searching for the high that you initially felt so I think they present you initially with the people who have had right swipes the most people liking them and then it means that you're kind of for the rest of your time on dating apps I think you're always searching for those people again and obviously not everyone can be those people on dating apps it's got to be the whole spectrum of society there's more to her book ghosts than dating apps but that's just one little aspect of the book well i say little it's actually quite an important aspect isn't it of

contemporary life so dolly on the program tomorrow and on monday i'm really looking forward to this victoria woods biographer jasper reese is going to be on woman's hour um yesterday in the post i got this enormous book um his biography of victoria she is just one of my heroines so really looking forward to investigating that one over the weekend jasper reese on woman's hour on monday now what is it like to get a diagnosis of ADHD as a middle-aged person? We tend to associate ADHD with younger people, usually boys, although if you're a regular listener to this programme, you'll know that is completely wrong. Emma Marnie was formerly diagnosed in her 50s,

and she's written a book about it called Better Late Than Never. Emma, you're not a doctor, but you are an expert on yourself and your own experience. So tell us a bit about what you were like as a child. Good morning. As a child, I was pretty hyperactive, actually. I could only get to sleep by rocking backwards and forwards and then banging my head against the pillow. And I loved, I was a real tomboy and I

loved sort of climbing trees and sort of jumping into rivers and that sort of thing. So I was definitely on the tomboy scale. Right. Did anyone suggest that there was an issue here of any kind? No. I think one of the things about ADHD is it is kind of 80% heritable. So there's often a sort of family blindness. And it comes from my side of the family, obviously, because my son was diagnosed at 10, which is how I came to the diagnosis. And so I think, you know, families think, well, you know, everybody else has got a problem, maybe not us. So am I right in saying that you pursued a possible diagnosis after your son was diagnosed? Yes. Age 10, when he was diagnosed, I was actually convinced it was in my husband's side, mainly because it's female diagnosis is very, you know, not many women are actually diagnosed. It's three times more not many women are actually diagnosed it's a three times more men than women are diagnosed so it wasn't really I didn't even really think of it being a female problem so I actually dragged my mother-in-law to the 2013 ADHD international conference in

Liverpool thinking maybe she'd help piece together the family puzzle. And it was there talking to other women that I had my light bulb moment and realised, oh, God, it's me. All right. What was your light bulb moment? Well, it was talking to the other women about what we were like as teenagers. And also, funnily enough, it was to do with what our nicknames were. So I don't know if she's listening, but I met a woman called Jennifer Wood and her nickname was Jennifer Wood, wouldn't she? And then I started telling others that my nickname was Fidgety Phil

and somebody pointed out that that was the Facebook group for adult ADHD. And I think that was my lightbulb moment. But looking back, how do you think it had, whether diagnosed or not, how do you think it had impacted on your life? Well, I can see, you know, particularly during school, I think very few ADHDers come out of school without some sort of scarring. And I was kind of ushered in as an academic scholar. And then I left with a sort of hand clutch of really bad A-levels. Yes well can we just sort of probe into that a bit you did really well in your what were then O-levels. Well not really well but not badly yeah. Okay well well enough certainly for people to

talk about you in terms of Oxford or Cambridge I gather. Yes well that. Yes. And then what happened? Well, I think, you know, by that stage, I'd sort of taken up drinking and smoking and fooling around with boys. And I was even sort of shoplifting. So I think the surge of hormones, I was kind of acting out, which is often quite common in ADHDs. But by the time I actually sort of got into concentrating for my A-levels, I knew something was up. And I went into a state of hyper-focus. And I was working almost too hard. But because I was at boarding school, there wasn't really many checks and balances. If you're working hard, they leave you alone. And I sort of, I basically burnt out. Right, which you think may or may have been your ADHD

or was your ADHD? I think looking back and certainly the NHS diagnosis I had the psychiatrist said, you know, pointed to it, that it was my ADHD because hyperfocus is kind of a bit of a complicated aspect of ADHD. What does it mean? It means basically because ADHD is a sort of dysregulation of dopamine, you can get sort of stuck on something. So often it's sort of seen when it's sort of kids playing video games and they might do that at the exclusion of everything else. Which doesn't mean that every teenage child who's done nothing but play video games for the last six months has got ADHD.

We need to be clear. Yes, we do. However, it's to do with sort of, well, I think it's to do with dysregulation of kind of attention so you can't shift gears uh very easily so you get sort of stuck into something and you go into a kind of tunnel right and and it's not helpful to because it basically you stop sort of eating and drinking and looking after yourself and what does it do to relationships? Well, it can be quite, if it's undiagnosed, it's not good for relationships because, you know, it can result in a lot of tension and sometimes aggression. So, yes, it can be quite damaging.

And I think knowing is better. And that's kind of one of the things I wanted to get across in the book. Yeah, I suppose that's the puzzle for those of us outside this world. Is it better? And how is it better to know? I think it's better because once you have a diagnosis, you can put things in place to help you. I mean, there are just three traits with ADHD, restlessness, distractibility, impulsivity. Distractibility means you lose your keys, you lose everything often, you know, those important things. And there's a time blindness as well. So you can start to put things in place. So you know that I always have a key bowl by the door since my diagnosis.

I never not leave my keys there. I always put my cards back in my wallet because I used to lose my cards kind of once a week. So those are the kind of things. Right. So on a practical level, the diagnosis has made your life easier and probably has made life easier for the people around you as well. What about medication? Well, medication also can only come with diagnosis. So it's another reason why knowing is better. But you don't need to take it. You don't need to take it, but it really helps. In what way? Well, some of the sort of negative aspects of ADHD, and it's not all negative, such as procrastination and the inability to do the boring jobs in life, which you just don't get round to,

paying tax returns, sorting out your piles of paper, paying parking fines and all that sort of thing. You take medication and you can sit down and you can focus and you can do these jobs. I know you only use that as an example, Emma, but I think we've just got to be a bit careful here because loads of us take ages to get round to doing that sort of stuff. And we're not on medication for ADHD. Yes. So this is a chronic thing that's been there since the very beginning. ADHD is not something that just sort of pops up on the 31st of January when it's time to file an attack.

It's been there since a very young age. And, you know, it is a serious diagnosis as well. They reckon about 24% of the prison population have it. So it does have a very serious side as well. Well, of course, but being very cynical perhaps, it's also, some would say, a gift to the pharmaceutical industry potentially. Well, at the moment, they reckon there's about 1.3 million adults who are undiagnosed with ADHD in this country. So it's very woefully undiagnosed. So I certainly don't think we're

giving them any gift here in the UK but I see medic you know medication as a tool like it would be for somebody who has some kind of illness where they need to take it like an asthma pump when they're feeling sort of they need to breathe you can use adhd to sit down and actually get on with the things which are stopping you being a more creative and get on with the creative um projects that otherwise are sort of bogged down in this organization we should say that um wonderfully you have trained retrained as a teacher you were a journalist you're now you're now a teacher um do you think you'll be on medication for the rest of your life if it continues to help you yes i definitely couldn't have retrained as a teacher without the benefit

of medication because there's a lot of boring um tick boxing and box filling and forms and stuff to do and um it really helped me to sit down and focus and get my PGCE. So I think it's a good example of where, you know, you can be a more productive person once you've got your diagnosis. Interesting. Thank you very much, Emma. Emma Marnie's book is called Better Late Than Never. And we've got an email here from a listener who says, I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 46.

It was upsetting to know that I'd spent my life trying to fit society norms when actually I am very different. The years of difficulty and overwhelmingness have led me to becoming quite a recluse now. Well, I'm sorry to hear that. And I hope listening to Emma, who's definitely got out there and done things, has helped that listener. Thank you, though, for the email. You can tell us how you feel about anything in life via the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. Now, we want to talk this morning about forgiveness.

And I ask, it's a very big question, this, but do women forgive differently from men? And is it possible to use creativity, in this instance, particularly writing, to help you understand forgiveness or perhaps to give yourself permission to forgive something or somebody in your life? Sandra Barefoot works in prisons with the charity The Forgiveness Project. I'm going to talk to Sandra first briefly. What is The Forgiveness Project, Sandra? Oh, good morning um the forgiveness project is a platform of stories that bring in here and that bring to heal restore and rehumanize so it's a community of storytellers who are really those who have either been inflicted tremendously by harm or they themselves have inflicted harm upon others so that's what the

forgiveness project is. And the prison program that we run is called Restore, which I've been running for over 11 years. And it's an intensive group-based program that holds a restorative space where we all bear witness to our stories. So in other words, a team of us will go in, there'll be three or two of us go in

and share our stories, both from those two different perspectives, which is that which is of harm to us and those who have inflicted harm upon others and I guess and then all men and women will share their stories too so we're bearing witness to all of our stories but the question we ask really is what is it to be human what has brought us to this place how we arrived here and how can we imagine a life differently okay what the one we led um now i'm very hesitant to say this but you do believe that there is a gender difference between women and men and forgiveness don't you so this

conversation started because of course we're um working in partnership with the free word organization which is an arts organization looking at radical kindness and forgiveness and the conversation came up where i was just saying i really noticed a difference of when we first started working in prison with men how men arrived at the word forgiveness compared to women so when we when we started the work with men men would come to me and say, what's this about, miss? Or this word is not, you know, even in my thinking, I'm thinking about revenge. Or as one man said to me, you know, he said, I've been trained to hurt by those who I looked up to. You know, I was trained, manners were slapped into me. So it was very much almost a little

resistance to that word. It didn't fit. And for men, it was much more about the outward, the looking at the you, the other, you know, blaming outwards or looking for those to forgive them. When we went to women, it was stark, the difference. So women turned around, came to me palpably, palpably aching to say, I need to find a way to forgive myself. It was about self-forgiveness. And also it was inextricably linked with this place of I forgive too easily. So when we started a check-in with women, we weren't hearing what the men said. I was hearing, if I wasn't in prison,

I wouldn't be alive. Prison saved my life. You know, for one woman one woman she said i didn't believe that my life was worth living for 20 years all i had was disgust for myself and another woman said i'm safe in prison right now well i find it too hard to say no yeah i've actually i mean it's and then you're you're speechless aren't you well you are i mean i've certainly spoken what's the story behind the story i've certainly spoken to female prisoners who've told me they felt safer, substantially safer in prison than outside it, which really is an appalling thing to hear. OK, from next month, the Forgiveness Project is running creative writing workshops. Cecilia Knapp is involved in those. She's the Young People's Laureate for London.

So is Anne-Marie Coburn, the author of 5,742 Days. And her daughter, Martha, died of an ecstasy overdose. Anne-Marie, I know that you went through a restorative justice process with the boy who gave your daughter ecstasy. Were you able to forgive him, and if so, how? Well, looking back at that time, I was full of, you know, just shock. And my behaviour was in a forgiving way. So part of forgiving him was giving myself the best chance to survive beyond losing Martha, because we couldn't change what had happened. So all my energy went on getting through every minute of every day.

And so I suppose any form of forgiving behaviour was really for myself. Just tell me a little bit more about that. I had a lot of horrible decisions to make in the aftermath of Martha dying. So when it came to the sentencing hearing and seeing this young boy come in to the court I just looked at him and thought oh my goodness and I could see his mum and dad there and choosing a restorative route with him gave me the chance to be able to ask some questions and just settle certain things within myself because my life was waiting for me to start living it again.

And I didn't have any sort of energy left to look at him too much and put all my focus into what he was doing with his life. So it was really for myself. Going back, thinking back to what Sandra said, did he want you to forgive him? I'm not sure about that. We never really discussed it, but we wrote to one another for a year and a half and through the letters I could see that, you know, he was kind of suffering. We were suffering because of Martha's death, so we had that in common. But I'm not sure

if he wanted me to forgive him. I never really asked him that question my focus was all about getting on with my life and trying to clear things up And your own writing, the book you wrote did that help and if so how? I started writing the book within six hours of Martha dying Six hours? Yeah, it was very strange but throughout my life I've always used writing

to help me get things out and it was as if something took over me so I wrote for 102 days for most most of the time I wrote for the first three days after Martha died without stopping and then my family took my laptop away and made me rest and so it was obviously this huge surge of me trying to make sense of something that will never make sense. But the book, I think, writing that book and writing it in a diary form, helped me to sort of get it out of my system and to maybe recall certain things that I might have to remember at a later date. But it really kept me going. It gave me a focus. And I think it kept me alive, really. So in that case, no wonder you're prepared to take part in these creative writing workshops alongside Cecilia Knapp.

And Cecilia, your brother took his own life eight years ago now. How has writing helped you get through this? Morning, Jane. I'm really interested in what Anne-Marie was just saying about turning to writing instantly. Because it's always something that I've had in my life ever since I was a child. I've always had a writing practice in whatever way that was, whether it was a diary or a little notebook with a load of kind of scribbles and stories in it or whatever. So in terms of writing to forgive, I was saying this to Sandra on the phone the other day, I think I, I sort of arrived at a place one day where I had kind of forgiven myself. For, you know, following a suicide, there are all sorts of unanswered questions and moments of guilt and things like that.

And so there is a sort of process of kind of self forgiveness and letting go, but I'd sort of arrived at it unconsciously. And I think that's because I had always had a writing practice in my life. And I was saying this to Sandra the other day, and she said, well, sometimes forgiveness happens like that. You don't have to name it or even really understand it, but sometimes you just kind of arrive there. And I think that was because of writing. Yeah, so you really, I must admit, I'll be honest with you, I came to this somewhat dubious about why writing in free form could in any way help in the process of forgiveness. But Cecilia, you're trying, I mean, you've just about convinced me that it can. Because you and Anne-Marie have both been through the worst imaginable set of circumstances.

But I mean, how I think people at home will be wondering now how they can take part in these workshops. How do you do it? Absolutely. And yeah, we're really excited to be running them in November. And you can, they're going to all take place online, obviously because most things are taking place online now because of Corona. So they're the 5th and the 12th of November. And you can go on to freeword.org to sign up for them.

There's no cost? There is a cost, but there'll be kind of subsidised places for people that need them. And most things throughout the season of kindness are fairly cheap. Tickets start from £2 to certain things. But we're going to be looking at this idea of writing to discover, and that's what I think the most amazing thing about writing is it is a process of discovery you go to the page or to the laptop or to even your phone

and you don't know where you're going to end up and and that's exciting and that is transformative it helps you like Anne-Marie said to figure out what's what's going on and to find the language I think crucially to find the language for what has happened um yes and of course the beauty of this is there's there's nothing you can't you can't write anything wrong can you because this is there is no wrong way to do it I say to all of my students and a lot of my work is within the community you know writing with people that haven't necessarily done any creative writing before. And that's what my tenure as the Young Laureate is going to be about. It's about saying this isn't, you know, sort of red pen, this is incorrect. There's no such thing

as that. It's about this is your space, this is your time to discover, to find the language where your everyday language fails, to understand yourself a little bit more. Cecilia Knapp, and you also heard from Anne-Marie Coburn and from the first speaker there, it was Sandra Barefoot from the Forgiveness Project. I thought, I mean, you don't want to pick anybody out, but I thought what Anne-Marie had to say was absolutely incredible and the very best of luck to her and to Cecilia, of course. Now, absolutely loads of emails from you today,

taking issue with just about everything we talked about and certainly taking issue with almost everything I said, which is fabulous. It's almost like sometimes I say things to inspire... No, I can't. No. No, of course I don't. Ridiculous. On the subject of fillers, surely the criticism of other women is equally to blame,

or more so. Please do not use simple analysis like this. It doesn't help the argument. Women need to be kinder. That's from a listener who objected to my suggestion that it might be that the so-called male gates. I mean, I'm only purport. I don't actually necessarily hold to this view myself, but it's a it's a way of getting the conversation going. Caroline says Jane Garvey sounds like a has-been feminist. It's not the male gaze that's at fault, it's social media. Young girls look at other young women. This is the real problem. I thought she put the interviewee on the spot trying to blame men. Shameful interviewing, in my opinion. Well, the speaker there, Caroline, was a conservative MP.

So I think if you stood for political office, I think it's fair to have your opinions, if not challenged, just, you know, gently poked with a delicate lady stick, which is what I was doing. But I take your point. But of course, of course, women are critical of other women. Why are they critical of other women? It's the patriarchy, isn't it? Ian says, it's the other women, oh, here we go, and the fashion and celebrity industry that puts pressure on girls to look a certain way. The male gaze, if that is a thing, generally doesn't like this look. The blame lies elsewhere, says Ian.

From Janet, I'm pretty confident that women are driven to use fillers based on their own or their female peers' gaze, not the male gaze. Men are usually quite accepting of women's looks. Hang on, Janet, where were you the other night on Twitter? When? Well, let's not go there. From Anonymous, I used to have Botox and fillers, but recently, and I really cannot explain this, I've started to love my face with all its lines and wrinkles, possibly even because of the wrinkles. So I now don't bother. I do wonder if I'll swing back the other way. But thinking back when my Botox was due, I used to have that haircut feeling where you suddenly really love your hair the day before a haircut. I think, should i bother but i'd go ahead anyway lockdown forced the halt and my face is mine again and i love it i'm not pretty or young looking i'm 49 and i'm normal i've got three daughters still at primary school and

i'd be mortified if they had work that's really interesting isn't it thank you anonymous for that one uh and from Sue, for God's sake, women of the world, your face is part of you. It makes up your personality. Why change it to a cloned look? Stop worrying. Stop judging. Embrace your face. Mary, you seem to infer that men expect women, more particularly young girls, to have unnecessary beauty treatments. Whilst I would be the first to shout against the sexualisation of any gender, I have asked many men what they think of the trend to have these lips and heavy eyebrows and enhanced buttocks and so on,

and their response is that they don't like it. They like women who are natural, yet we hear this. But, you know, I have to say the evidence of many centuries suggests the opposite. Anyway, it's good to know that some people want to believe that that is indeed the case. Oliver, I know I'm a man. Well, that's good, Oliver. But I thought I would say that I personally find youngsters that have this treatment extremely unattractive, inhuman almost. It makes them look deformed. We've got loads of these today.

Thank you. Ken, I'm a 73-year-old man. I hate any form of face paint and any form of imitation, including girdles. I'm appalled and saddened that women think they're inadequate. I love and have always loved the natural look. I had a girlfriend when I was 17 who was a hairdresser and she wouldn't let me near her because I'd spool her hair or her makeup and that set the mould for me, says Ken. It's good to see the word girdle. You don't see that often enough. It's in that email. Thank you. On the subject of Susie McMurray, I love talking to Susie. Obviously, as I said, I've talked to her before and she's just a brilliant artist. Lawrence says, what a beautifully calming and interesting interview this was. I didn't know a great deal about her, but not a hint of aggression or

needless boasting contained within her comments. The loss of her husband must have affected her greatly and dealing with widowhood at such a young age must have been dreadfully difficult. Lauren says my own mother was widowed at just 35. Thank you for that, Lauren. Yes, I agree. She was a very, very thoughtful interviewee and somebody who clearly is just incredibly gifted. ADHD. Nicola, I had to stop driving and pull over to email you. I was diagnosed with adult attention deficit disorder after my second baby. I was forgetting to eat and drink as I was solely concentrating on two babies under the age of 18 months and I'd lost lots of weight. I'm a bright woman, but I only got one O-level. I was not hyperactive, quite the opposite in fact, a daydreamer at the back of the classroom with no concentration ability. I suffer too from anxiety and I never fit in socially and

I find forming friendships really, really difficult. Luckily, I have a supportive family and husband. I'm now in my 50s and I have friends and a career. Nicola, glad to hear it. I'm glad you're okay. On the same subject, this is from Anne, your presenter came over as sceptical and patronising about ADHD, almost dismissive of the condition. No, I'm not dismissive at all. And I'm sorry if it came over that way. I suppose I felt it was reasonable to challenge the pharmaceutical aspect of this because we can't ever forget money is being made here by somebody. And I don't know, it just feels that something, you occasionally just need to remember that.

I appreciate that ADHD is a very real thing. I mean, that's clear. Sally says, my son has it, diagnosed at the age of seven. He was discharged from NHS Adolescent Mental Health Services, aged 18. And since then, it's been very difficult to get a specialist review via the NHS. In the end, we accessed this privately at great expense. If we hadn't done this, I doubt he would still be away at university. But on his new medication, he is able to focus on his normal activities and is able to live independently. So there you go. There's a really good illustration

from that listener that medication has helped her son to carry on his life. In fact, more than carry on, have a really good time at university. So that's a good point to make. Thank you very much. Join us tomorrow. My guests will include Dolly Alderton, who's got her first novel out called Ghosts. We'll hear from the psychologist Linda Blair on the do's and don'ts of working from home, which is probably driving many of you completely crackers. And this is important too. We're hearing tomorrow from a rape survivor who contacted the programme after the man who raped her was convicted of rape and sexual assault

and got a very lengthy prison sentence. But this listener feels that she had the sort of justice and the sort of treatment that other victims of rape may not necessarily have got. She felt that in many ways she was the so-called perfect victim and that she got the right result as a consequence of that. So really interesting stuff on the program tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.