Woman's Hour - Searching for Rosemary Kennedy, 40 years of Madonna, Wendy Warrington - nurse/midwife, Nicola Brookes, Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

(Photo Amy Ní Fhearraigh by Kip Carroll)Rosemary Kennedy has often been referred to as the "missing Kennedy". She was the sister of former US President John F. Kennedy and despite been part of one of the most famous families in American politics, very little was known about Rosemary. Until recently. Her story has been brought to life by the Irish National Opera in Least Like the Other – Searching for Rosemary Kennedy at the Royal Opera House. Director Netia Jones and soprano Amy Ní Fhearraigh join Jessica Creighton to discuss the production and its themes.The First Lady of Ukraine, Olena Zelenska, told CNN news that it is the women in Ukraine who are bearing the brunt of the war, caring for their children and older relatives, and keeping things going. Someone who knows this only too well is Wendy Warrington, an NHS nurse and midwife who has been going out to give medical help and support to women and children in Ukraine since March last year. She joins Jessica to talk about the situations that she sees every day, and how women really are at the heart of it all.The Queen of Reinvention, Madonna, has announced her first ever greatest hits tour to mark 40 years since her breakout single, Holiday. She'll be playing 35 dates around the world. Performing hits from her 1983 self-titled debut album to 2019's Madame X. Jess dicusses her influence with Fiona Sturges, Arts writer for The Guardian and the Financial Times.Yesterday serial rapist David Carrick was formally dismissed by the Metropolitan Police. He pleaded guilty to 24 rapes and multiple sexual offences. Sir Mark Rowley, the Met Commissioner, has apologised to his victims for the force’s failings. The force is currently investigating 1,000 sexual and domestic abuse claims involving about 800 of its officers. For survivors hearing about these cases in the news can be very difficult. Jess speaks to Nicola Brookes who was groomed by a police officer. The independent office of Police conduct said he “knowingly targeted and exploited” her.During the Covid 19 lockdown, the writer Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett decided - like many of us - to get a pet. She acquired Mackerel, a kitten, whose antics over one year helped her examine her desire and fears about becoming a mother and inspired her to write her latest book ‘The Year of the Cat’. Jessica Creighton asks Rhiannon about cat ladies and the extraordinary cat characters of her childhood, and the deeper themes of her book - anxiety and recovery from trauma, family love and why she used to say, “I’m not sure I want children.”Presented by Jessica Creighton Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Coming up on the programme, more and more details of police officer David Carrick are being revealed after he admitted to raping and sexually assaulting 12 women. Now, it's a story that we spoke about yesterday on the programme and many of you got in touch with your views. With the Metropolitan Police currently investigating more than 1,000 sexual and domestic abuse claims involving about 800 of its officers, you told us about your first-hand experiences with

police officers and your confidence in the police going forward. Well today I'll speak to a woman who wants to share her experience. After she was groomed by a police officer, she'll also tell us what she thinks needs to change to stop these cases from happening. Also on the programme, the story of the secret Kennedy. Despite being born into one of America's most famous political families, very little was known about the former US President John F. Kennedy's sister Rosemary, until now. The story of her troubled life, including the devastating lobotomy that she underwent, has been brought to life in a new opera. I'll be speaking to the director and one

of the cast members about Rosemary's extraordinary life. Plus, one writer's love of cats and how they've helped her navigate trauma, relationships and motherhood. Also, pop icon Madonna has just announced a new world tour. She's been in the charts, forget this, for decades. But this will be her first ever greatest hits tour, celebrating the 40th anniversary of her breakout single Holiday. So it got us thinking in the office about reinvention because Madonna is, well, the queen of reinvention. Whether it's her music, her look, maybe her message, she has continuously evolved over the years. So I'd like to know, have you ever reinvented yourself? What did you do? How did you go about it? Get in touch with us. I'd like to know what

you changed. Was it your look? Maybe the way you speak, your outlook on life even. You can WhatsApp me or send me a voice note or even a picture on 03700100444. Data charges might apply, so you should use Wi-Fi if you can. You can text me as well on 84844. Remember that text will be charged at your standard message rate. We're on social media, of course, Twitter, Instagram, at BBC Women's Hour. And you can email us as well through our website. All that to come on the programme. But first, earlier this week, Ukraine's First Lady, Elena Zelenska, told CNN that women are bearing the brunt of the war with Russia when it comes to taking care of their families and children. The war has been going on since February last year, and my next guest has seen firsthand how the invasion is impacting women.

Wendy Warrington is a nurse and midwife from Greater Manchester who decided to travel to the Polish border last March. She has since regularly been to Ukraine as well to help out. I spoke to Wendy earlier this morning and she told me what first compelled her to volunteer. So what happened when the war broke out? I was actually away at the time but we run the Polish social centre in Bury. I've been heavily involved and they started a collection and at that point I decided that because I speak Polish that maybe I could go over and offer some help so that was the the first point the other was I was hearing about all the queues and seeing the photos and the news of all these women, children, families, older people and babies standing in freezing conditions in the queues waiting to cross the border and then there was

news of babies that were actually freezing and I just felt that I really needed to just go and see if I could offer some support to these women as they crossed over the border. The other reason is that my family, from my mother's side, my grandfather was in Auschwitz. My great-grandmother perished there. And what resonated with me was what my family went through. And this kind of had that effect on me that this is what was happening here in Ukraine. Did you have any concerns? Because you would have seen the pictures like we all did of bombings, shellings and the kind of destruction that was happening.

Did you or your family have any concerns about you travelling over there in terms of your safety? At the time, I didn't have any concerns because my plan was to work over on the Polish side of the border and not cross into Ukraine. And I did promise my family that I would cross into Ukraine. However, once I reached Poland and I'd been working in the humanitarian center in Przemysl, I became friends with a Polish paramedic who'd been volunteering over there. And he asked me to cross over the border. We went to deliver an ambulance that was being taken to Mariupol. And then we started to deliver aid to Lviv Children's Hospital. And then we started to do evacuations and doing medical support.

So we were bringing out children and adults with various conditions and we were bringing them back over the border either to hospitals into Poland where they'd been accepted or we'd take them to the medical train where they'd be transported further either abroad or into Poland. The only issue is that I didn't tell my family at the time that I was doing this because I didn't want to upset them. However, when I went to do one evacuation, when the siren started to go off, I decided that I better tell my husband where I was because if anything did happen and I did disappear, he'd think that I was in Poland. So I thought I better tell him what I was up to.

And what was the reaction? He wasn't very happy, to be fair. They were quite upset, the fact that I hadn't told them. But I didn't want to unsettle them. And I actually did feel that where I was going, that I was as safe as I possibly could be. I mean, you never know what might happen. But they accepted that this is what I wanted to do and so after that when I said I

was going to go further into Ukraine which I did they well they didn't particularly like it very much they accepted that what I was doing is what I what I wanted to do or what I felt I needed to do. And now as you say you travel out to Ukraine regularly to help women and children. What sort of issues are you seeing? What health problems and situations are you seeing? So I've just returned on Saturday. I've been there. I've been there for a week. It was quite intensive. What we are seeing now is in the refugee centres. So for the people that have fled from the east to have moved up to the west that don't want to cross over the border into Poland, they are in various refugee centres

around the Lviv area. And what we are seeing is that the children that are born, the babies, are either born prematurely, so a few weeks earlier than their expected date. They are smaller than what we would expect. And we're also seeing in the children that the children are suffering heavily from infections, coughs, colds, and that they are underweight and what we would actually classify as malnourished.

You would have seen the comments recently from the First Lady of Ukraine, Ulaena Zelenska, and she said that women are bearing the brunt of this war. How much do you agree with that? I would agree with what Ulaena Zelenska is saying, because I've seen it firsthand in terms of the women who were fleeing from the east of Ukraine, they would be coming with their aunts, grandmas, sisters, cousins, children, and they would be travelling over 30 hours sometimes, crammed into a train, trying to get over that border and to get on to some further help.

And the stress that they endured was clearly visible. It was etched in the faces. That's why when we greeted them into the centre, the first thing that I would do is just sit down and chat to them and just reassure them. The ones that were pregnant admitted that they actually didn't give any thought to their unborn at that time because they were so busy dealing with everything else that was happening so for me to just do the very

basics of antenatal care and for them just to listen in and hear their baby's heartbeat with the donated dopplers that I got you could actually see visibly see the stress easing from the faces and then the tears would come and then the smiles but we also see that women are coming across the border delivering the children and the family members to either go on further to other countries or further into Poland or to other family members that come from abroad to receive them and then they were crossing back over the border to go and support the war effort, if you will, in Ukraine. So going back to the works, working as nurses, going back and sewing, making camouflage nets, and also caring for elderly relatives. One woman that I met actually just on my last trip, she was telling me that she would love to

leave. She's got an 18-year-old son who's got disability. She's got two grown-up daughters. But she has an 18-year-old mother who has said that she's not going to leave. So she said she's got no option, but she has to stay because she won't leave her mother. And what the women really feel that they need to do is they're to be able to support either elderly relatives, but also to support the war effort.

So I do feel that the women are bearing the brunt because also they've got the stress as well of the unknown when they have no contact with their family members. A lot of people, understandably, will be living day by day in that part of the world. But what about the future consequences? What impact will this have on women and children that are living through a war on their mental and physical health so there is a lot of trauma and that's some work

that we're currently doing um i recently um won um an award um which was for the best midwife and i um was um introduced to a woman who has the best nurse. So she's got a lot of trauma training. And we've linked up now so that we can offer that support. The issue is, is that as people that are coming from the international community, because I speak Polish, I can understand some Ukrainian, but it's about offering that ongoing support. We've also got to think about the impact on the babies and the unborns, the prematurity, the small babies, the malnourishment,

and what that impact will have on their life trajectory in terms of their life outcomes. And with this war, what I feel is, is that the repercussions will run through generations in terms of the stress, the trauma. How much has all of this impacted you, Wendy? The thing is for me is that I feel that I'm quite a strong person and I've got resilience. I've also got good support. I've got support from my health colleagues if I need to have the support. I've not sought that support yet because my support is from within my family. I did spend a lot of time over in Ukraine. Last year, I spent more time in Poland and Ukraine

than I actually did in the UK. Coming back now and reflecting, having some time out, has made me realise that I did try to spread myself a little too thinly. So what I was doing was going to deliver humanitarian aid into areas that had been heavily hit that had been previously occupied and I didn't realize how close to risk that I actually was how close the Russian border was but that's my way of coping with it is is what I don't know

doesn't hurt me so I just carry on with what I'm doing and for now that's the what I've decided to do is is that what we want to set up is some primary care clinics and to have continuity because that lack of continuity is an issue and there is a lot of health problems that we're seeing within the refugee centres so we want to set up something that is sustainable it's very difficult especially when you're going into the villages that have recently been occupied and that have been um that have been um de-occupied if you will and seeing um what's gone on there a lot of older people they can't get the medication a lot of um colds flu coughs um and i think one of the things though that really resonates me is something that i am working on to try to raise it in the media is the fact

that the number of children that have been taken by the Russian invaders and being taken to Russia again this is something that I feel that needs to be highlighted one woman in the villages that we went to said that they had to hide the children they were hiding the children under the ground so that they wouldn't be taken now I know that there are agencies that are working with this but for me this is something as a mother and a grandmother that really is very, very close to home. I mean, can you imagine the implications on that parents not knowing where the child is? Yeah, that is something that, of course, has not been verified, but we understand that the UN is looking into suggestions that children might be taken. Now, of course, the work that you're

doing, Wendy, is absolutely incredible, but I do hope you are taking time out to look after yourself. What advice would you give to others who want to maybe go over to Ukraine and help out as well? The thing is, is that I've come across a lot of volunteers and everybody's got big hearts and people want to help. However, some that I've come across are running away or escaping from their issues at home. So it could be a failed relationship. It could be that there has been a marital breakdown. There's personal issues, financial issues, and they feel that they want to come over to Ukraine to help. And while that's admirable, but what that does is bring those certain problems. And if you haven't dealt with what you're dealing with at home then how can you help the people that are over there so

what you need to do is make sure that you've got enough finances in place to support yourself that you know how to get back that you can have um practice some self-care and know when there is to take some time out because while the volunteers continue and i have worked there harder than i've ever worked in my life i'm talking 18 to 20 hour days it does take its toll um that you need to have a certain amount of resilience and good support networks and know when you need to look after yourself and take some time out yeah and I know that you're heading back to Ukraine in the next few weeks what are you hoping to achieve this time? Yes, I'm hoping to go back in February.

And I'm not sure for how long, but we are setting up the primary care clinics that I said in the refugee centres. We are supporting those. I will continue to distribute aid. We've also been distributing generators. But what we want to do is push those Far East where they're most needed. And to offer support to my volunteer friends and colleagues who are in the areas like Harkee,

Zappa Richa, to be able to offer that support. I also support maternity hospitals. And if you've seen the news, like in Hurston and Zappa Richia, maternity hospitals have been hit. So I've taken equipment that I've had donated from Huntley. I've took Doppler's. I've took a CTG machine. I've now raised money with support from Cardiff for Ukraine. We've had incubators. And so I will be delivering incubators into those areas that need them. That was midwife and nurse Wendy Warrington speaking to me a little bit earlier about what she's seen whilst given medical help and support over in Ukraine. Now, at the start of the programme, I asked you about whether you have reinvented yourself over the years and a few people have got in touch someone has said here on instagram that they got a pixie cut hair and got tattoos at 50 after my husband left me a lot of people

seem to be going through transformations due to relationship breakdowns that's often a common stimulus someone else laura has got in touch to say, I've done this myself recently. Growing older, I decided on a hair colour change. I went blonde after being quite dark for most of my life. I also revamped my wardrobe using mainly charity shops. And she says, with age, I have become happier with my life in general. Great to hear, Laura. Now, we're asking that because the queen of reinvention, Madonna, has announced her first ever greatest hits tour to mark 40 years since her breakout single Holiday.

It's a great song. I'm sure you remember it. She has so many. You remember this one as well? Still sounds so good. The video was iconic as well. will be playing 35 dates around the world performing hits like that one also from her 1983 self-titled debut album all the way up to 2019's Madam X. I'm now joined by Fiona Sturgis who's an arts writer for the Guardian and the Financial Times. Good morning Fiona what was your reaction to the news? Great I mean great she doing greatest hits, which is something that if you love Madonna through the ages is exactly what you want. And I think in recent tours, she sort of steered clear of doing that. She's always wanted to sort of live in the present and promote what she's doing now and sort of be seen at the cutting edge. But this sort of sense of looking back is,

I think, what a lot of people will really appreciate. Yeah. How significant is that? And why do you think she's decided to, I suppose, re-perform her traditional hits? Well, I think there's an element of celebration there of everything that, you know, she understands her own legacy and she also understands her own business. And, you know, quite honestly, Madonna doesn't need to make any new music. In fact, Madonna doesn't even need to go out on tour. She could just, you know, sit back and and, you know, watch the money pour in. But she's also a smart cookie on the sort of business front. And so, you know, there's this tour, but there's also a series of reissues coming out. I think they started this year or they start this year coming out over the next few years,

deluxe reissues of all her classic albums. And that plus a, there's another album, which I haven't got called finally enough love, which is 15 number one. So taking her number one hits and remixing them. So it's a, and that to me sort of is classic Madonna looking at what she's done in the

past and celebrating her achievement while trying to bring it into the present. Yeah, you mentioned the word legacy there. And we were all thinking about this in the office about how many artists, particularly female artists, that she has influenced. And we thought of so many like Miley Cyrus and Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera. Does she still continue to have an influence, do you think? And how many people and how many artists has she influenced historically, culturally, over the years? Well, I think her influence is the... I mean, there are the obvious ones which you've mentioned

and also Lady Gaga, who, you know, cleaved very, very close to the Madonna formula. But I think her influence is much more sort of structural, if you know what I mean. She's sort of kicked down the door for women artists to be themselves to work with who they wanted to work with to pick up new styles and put them down again um and you know that is a template that has that has been carried through for many many women artists who might not actually acknowledge her you know it's

like looking at the feminists of you know the, the 1920s. We might not acknowledge them, not that she's that old, but we might not acknowledge them now. But, you know, these are the people that kicked down the door to make, you know, to make a career, a pop career sustainable for women now. Yeah, definitely blazed a trail. And, you know, when you read a lot of the articles, they are mentioning her age. She 64 65 this year still touring what do you make of that is her age significant i think it's significant in that uh you can probably count on one hand the the artists the women artists who have managed to uh stay you know at the forefront of the industry for that long because women are are usually faded

out in their in midlife and that's not just in music that's in in you know in acting as well so and Madonna has really really kicked back against that so you know she continues to annoy people I mean back in the day she would annoy Mary Whitehouse and the Pope nowadays she's annoying people like Piers Morgan because he thinks she she should, you know, it's that classic thing, put it away, grandma. And that is the thing that has been her. And she said it herself, that the worst thing you can do is, you know, she says, don't age, age is a sin. That is something that she's, that's her biggest fight of the last 10 years, I would say, being able to be herself to be her age and still do what she does so brilliantly. Yeah, you mentioned her annoying people and she was always quite controversial, wasn't she?

She was always known to, I suppose, put the cat amongst the pigeons. And I remember that Like A Prayer video where she was condemned by Christian organisations for doing that video. It was labelled as blasphemous. Do you think she still has that in her to shock, to cause outrage, to be controversial? Yeah, I think so. And I think it is, you know, what we were saying about her age, but also about her appearance.

And people have a lot to say about her appearance. And undoubtedly... Why is that? Well, she's engaged in this battle against nature in many ways in her face. And you can see it and people judge her on that. But she's, you know, that is a classic Hollywood thing as well. She's not the only one doing it. But she's still at the same time. She's still always, I think, thinking about what new things she can do.

Like her most recent, slightly shocking to some people, I think, sort of furor was her embracing of NFTs. And she sort of put out, she's been telling these avatars of herself giving birth to trees and robots. And actually, if you look them up, they're quite beautiful. But she's still sort of thinking about what she can do to sort of harness contemporary culture and put her own stamp on it, which I think is pretty amazing at her, you know, her time of life when she could just sit back and watch the money roll in. Yeah, it certainly proves her longevity. But who would be going to this world tour in terms of fans? Who's going to be watching? Is it the people that have grown up listening to her? Or

is there a new younger audience that she's attracting? I think there's still a young-ish audience, but I don't think she's pulling them in at the same rate that she was 20, 30 years ago. And I think, you know, given how much concerts now cost, I don't know what the cost of these tickets are, but it's an arena tour, so it's going to be in the hundreds. I think this is a heritage, and I don't like to use that word in relation to that, but she is very much part of the, she's a heritage act. And I think actually the fact that she's doing this tour and she's playing her hits is an acknowledgement of her legacy and where she now kind of sits in the pop firm where she can look back and go,

look at this huge catalogue that I've got. And that heritage sort of industry is one of the most lucrative parts of popular music at the moment. So I do think it's going to be mostly those people who've grown up with her and also have the funds to go to an arena tour. And what might they see? Have you seen her in concert? What is she like when she performs? I've seen her lots of times. I haven't seen her in the last 10 years, but before that, many, many, many times. And she always, you know, she always puts on a show. She always, you know, there's, you know, extravagant sets. There's massive dance routines. She has this habit, I don't know if she's still doing it,

every now and then of coming out with her live band and playing guitar very badly. I imagine she will press on with that. But usually, you know, hers is a big show. So if you are paying to 200 plus or 150 pounds for a ticket, even though it seems a lot, you're going to get your money's worth with her because she really, you know, she's an artist.

She is, you know, a trained dancer. So she really, really thinks about the spectacle. So that's what we'll see. Yeah, I'm sure so many people are looking forward to it. Fiona Sturges, arts writer for The Guardian and The Financial Times. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. Lots of you have been getting in touch about how you have reinvented yourself. I decided I would reinvent myself. I now rock a short pixie cut. I got a massive tattoo on my thigh. I learned to ride a motorbike, flew a helicopter, brought a non-mummy style car, re-bought at 50 and never been so happy.

Someone else has said, I completely reinvented the way I think about how others think about me. I realized that no one really knows what people think. So how could I think that I know what people thought? Now I feel more confident and relaxed. I wear what I want and speak to everyone with care and respect.

Thank you everyone for getting in touch. It's really interesting to hear about your reinventions. You can WhatsApp, you can text, you can get in touch on social media. And if you want to send something a bit more considered, you can email us as well. Now, yesterday, serial rapist David Carrick was formally dismissed by the Metropolitan Police. He pleaded guilty to 24 rapes and multiple sexual offences. The Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, warned more shocking cases involving police officers could emerge following his

monstrous campaign of abuse. Sir Mark Rowley, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, has apologised to his victims for the force's failings. The force is currently investigating 1,000 sexual and domestic abuse claims involving about 800 of its officers. For survivors hearing about these cases in the news, it can be a very difficult time, especially if you have been the victim of abuse by a police officer. I'm joined now by Nicola Brooks, who was groomed by a Sussex police officer. The Independent Office of Police Conduct said he knowingly targeted and exploited her. Good morning, Nicola. Good morning. Thank you for coming on to the programme. Now, what did you make of the news

when you heard about David Carrick? It didn't surprise me. It didn't shock me. The extent and the rape allegations that you plead you're guilty to, that shocked and upset me. But then reading further into the details that were released about the factors of the case, about the manipulation, the charm,

the coercive control and the degradation of his victims, that didn't shock me or surprise me because they are also the same factors that happened in my case. So I and I just I just thought, here we go again. And it's not going to be the last. There's going to be more. The officer in your particular case was sacked for gross misconduct. Can you just tell us a little bit about your case, what happened and the effect it had on you? Well, it started, I met him in 2012. He was the assigned officer that was assigned

to an online stalking cyber abuse case. And after I complained to the police, because the police refused to do anything about it, I had to go to the High Court in London with a case against Facebook to get the identities of the perpetrators. One of those, the main person turned out to be a serving West Midlands police officer. And my solicitor at the time got back in touch with the police and said, right, you're going to have to reopen this because what's happened to our client, you're going to have to investigate it. We need a criminal prosecution. And although we've got the civil case, you know, results. And he was assigned and we kept in touch on and off over the years. And my stalking case didn't progress and it got worse and worse

other forces were involved the met police were involved west midlands police were involved and i just kept hitting brick wall after brick wall uh it wasn't progressing and i got back in touch with them i said look you you emailed me once and said if there's anything you can do to help get in touch so I was desperate and I thought no one's listening to me at 66 please no one's even replying to my emails or phone calls and he did straight away within minutes he asked for my phone number and he called and this carried on from there. And every now and again, they'd check in and say, you're right, this is terrible what's happened. And we as the police are so bad at investigating these, you know,

abuses and online stalking. But by now it was real life stalking. They posted my home address online. So it was coming to my home as well and um he was completely charming and friendly he he'd always offered to come around and see me he'd send a text or an email say well i'm i'm just at the pub having a drink with some friends i can come around and give you some advice and you know some pointers and so i said oh great pointers. And I said, oh, great, that'd be OK. And there was a little part of me that thought, is this wrong that he should be doing that out of hours, off duty as well as on?

And because the advice he was giving me, he was saying, right, I'm going to intervene here. I'm going to phone West Midlands. I'm going to phone the Metlands I'm going to phone the mayor I'm going to do this so he's coming in and he's he's starting to groom me thinking that because I was getting no support anywhere else he was the white knight the IOPC said this they said he came in he completely fooled her over a long prolonged period of time know, I came to rely on him. And then over the next couple of years, it was on and off, on and off. We weren't in a romantic relationship. We weren't linked.

We weren't dating. It was nothing to do with that. He only ever came to my home. I only ever saw him when he came to my home. And he was on juicy. And the few times he was off duty this carried on and I was I was just plunged further and further into desperation because nothing was being done I was being targeted more and it it ended December 2016 and because he always initiated the contact

and he texted me out of the blue and he said I'm in the neighbourhood in a pub, can I come round and see you and I was like yeah okay because I've got some info I want to give you and everything and he came round but by this point we were on friendly terms

over the years we'd been on friendly terms and still nothing romantic was established He came round, but by this point we were on friendly terms. Over the years we'd been on friendly terms. And still nothing romantic was established. And so he came round and he was drunk. It was pretty, I could see he'd had a drink when he arrived. This was two days after Christmas. And the first thing he did was ask me for some booze, alcohol, when he arrived. And because I've got Crohn's disease and a stoma I don't drink alcohol like that I only drink in social occasions because it would

in Christmas I had leftover wine in my fridge and I said well I've just got wine from Christmas and he said oh that'll do and he's pouring glass and he's on the wine and the previous days before he'd text me saying he was sick of Brighton he hated Brighton he hated his job and he was going to get a second month abroad and I panicked I was like and I text back and I said don't go I don't want you to go because to me that was my only rock my only sense of support within the place that was helping me. So I thought, well, that's gone. And it progressed. I was drinking at the same time he was. I think, sorry to interrupt, but it's important to point out that you did have a sexual relationship with him

and it was consensual, although it was, as pointed out by the IOPC that it was grooming now a lot of people have suggested that there's something wrong with the police in general do you feel that and what more can be done to stop this from happening again do you think well I actually throughout 2016 I actually reported him i flagged him up i reported him directly to a met police officer and she okayed it she said he's not doing anything wrong and and i carried on you know with with with seeing him and taking his advice but to me the whole process from the from the minute you report and flag it up going through the iopc process and the the uh the cps if i did know what that was like from the start i would i wouldn't have done it because the support isn't there the the

they they twist it around and and they you know they make it look like you instigated it. And no matter what you do, I sent in every single text. The IOPC downloaded everything. They had the evidence. They had it there. The CPS had it. And it was completely whitewashed over. It was never even mentioned. Yeah, I understand that the CPS did decide to investigate, but found that there wasn't enough evidence. But then, of course, the Independent Office for Police Conduct then found in your favour. Nicola, I'm sorry that you went through all of that, but I'm very grateful for you this morning for coming on to Women's Hour and sharing your story. Thank you for coming on to the program. Now Rosemary Kennedy has often been referred to as the missing Kennedy. She was the sister of former US President John F Kennedy and despite being part of one of the most famous families

in American politics very little was known about Rosemary until recently. Well, her story has been brought to life by the Irish National Opera, which explores her troubled birth and her family's decision to have her undergo a lobotomy. Joining me now in the studio is director, designer and video artist of Least Like the Other, Searching for Rosemary Kennedy, Nisha Jones and soprano Amy Nii Arie. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Hello. Great to have you. Nisha Jones, and soprano Amy Nii-Arry. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Hello. Great to have you.

Nisha, first, tell me about Rosemary's life, because I understand it took a lot of research because there isn't many details about her, and how you came across her story. Well, there are a few books actually on this subject now, but it was the composer Brian Irvin and the director of Irish National Opera, Fergus, who came to me with this subject and I said, no way, this is a terribly bad idea.

I didn't see how on earth this could be an opera. But actually, because working with Brian is so fruitful and creative and joyful, I was quite keen to be involved in this project. And what we've come up with in the end is something that isn't at all like a biography or even a kind of narrative storytelling of this very, very difficult and sad story. It's more like an exploration of how the events in this young girl's life could have led to this very, very tragic moment. And what was going on in America at that time, and all of the forces that were surrounding her, and also what that might reflect on us today, you know, what actually hasn't really changed.

So tell us about her story and what you came to find out about her. So she was the eldest daughter of the family of nine children. And there was a very difficult moment in her birth. She was born at the same time as there was an outbreak of Spanish flu. And so the doctor couldn't get to the house in time and the nurses who were with her mother Rose were not allowed to help in the labour so they held the baby back in the birth canal which we now know is not a very good idea and it may or may not have had a bearing on Rosemary, but it possibly may have. It's just one of these conjectured moments. And so Rosemary had what we probably would describe today as mild learning difficulties.

And there are various bits and pieces of information about events that happened through her life. There's very little footage of her, but there is a very beautiful bit of Pathé newsreel when she was presented at court here in London to the King and Queen. And, you know, with all the debutantes and it's touching and it's very, it's sad. Yeah, yeah, it's an incredible story. And Amy, you are the soprano and I think it opens, doesn't it it with you portraying Rose in Labour and singing too. How intense was it for you to perform that particular scene of a woman in Labour? Well yeah I mean this is something that Nisha and I worked on quite extensively because I relate as a person more naturally towards Rosemary given my my age. I'm also, you know,

quite young and sort of cheerful as she was. And so for the portrayal of someone like Rose, who is much more stern and much more of the era and of the sort of patriarchal oppression structure of the time, I found it a little bit more challenging. I've also never given birth myself. So it's, I mean, it's certainly not a graphic portrayal of that, but it was more about finding how to create the sense of control and constant composure that Rose had and this sense of discipline that she carried with her throughout everything. And so the music is highly intense. It's all about breathing and counting as you're in labour. And physically, we slightly portray things. But it was quite challenging at first. I sit down in the scene a lot as well

and it's not easy to sing when you're sitting on the floor. But, you know, it was quite challenging, but also I think we've now really reached a point where I can channel it in a way that is still authentic to me as an artist, but portrays Rose in a suitable fashion and that there's enough contrast then when I move on to Rosemary to really see the shift in the piece. So yeah, it really does start with

a bang. Wow. And you mentioned that word there, authenticity. And Nisha, it's not traditional opera, is it this? No, it really isn't. Even in the way that we've created it, we didn't do any of the usual kind of ways of making theatre. And in a way, that's very exciting. I think it's also, it is a slightly female idea. There's this idea that a linear narrative is a kind of traditionally quite male way of telling a story. And what we do is we kind of pile up events. And so what the audience is left with is a puzzle that they have to put the pieces together themselves. And I think it was important to do this because the story is so difficult, it's so painful, that actually you need to kind of work around it. And there are lots of things in this piece that lead on to other lines of thinking. There's the idea of these patriarchal structures, of course,

you know, the kind of strong father in a family. But there's also the religious background. There's the political background. And there is then this medical world, the medicalization of otherness. And even now, how we may deal with, you know, the idea of intelligence and conform, thank goodness, from lobotomies, but we are still doing all kinds of surgical procedures to be more beautiful. You know, young women are still, in a way, subjecting themselves to all kinds of horrific things really to conform. So I think in many ways, you know, we do need to reflect on this period not as something that is historical and really has nothing to do with us, but actually has carried on something into, you know, the way that we are with each other now. Which I think shows how relevant her story is even now. And you mentioned some big themes

there, which we will definitely dive into. But first, let's just hear a clip. Here's Rosemary writing to her dad. It really, really grabs you, doesn't it? Nisha, you mentioned Rosemary's lobotomy. And I think at that time, 80% of them were performed on women.

What was going on there? Because you've mentioned these big overarching themes that the opera uh tries to wrestle with and you've spoken about patriarchal structures how does that all fit in how does that all tie in together well in our story um two medical men freeman and watts are um they had created a kind of belief system in lobotomy as a panacea. There were many thousands performed in America, as there were actually in the UK. And lobotomy was seen as something that could cure all kinds of things that were seen as problematical. So all kinds of mental illnesses, homosexuality, sexual desire, all of these things that were seen as somehow unnatural. And this very horrific solution was found. I don't need to go into too much detail about what a lobotomy is. I think even the word

causes horror and fear now. But what's important for us is that it's not villainizing anybody because the forces, the societal forces that led the Kennedys to this decision, as many other families, were very strong. Like it was very persuasive. And I'm sure that the idea was this would be a very good idea. This would actually help. So it's almost that the women didn't really have a say in what was happening. Often they didn't. And often it was their fathers or their brothers or their husbands that, suggest them for this very, very extreme solution.

The statistics are very shocking. It is almost 80% in most areas. And the outcomes were not very often very happy. Well, yeah, Amy, what was the quality of life for Rosemary after that lobotomy? I mean, after the lobotomy, she was, I think she was 23 when the lobotomy was performed. And she was then reduced to the mental capacity of a toddler after that. And I'm quite sure she also was physically paralysed as well as a result of it. So, I mean, it's certainly, it's no quality of life. And I mean, there are so many

instances where it was just, as Nisha says, it was just unsuccessful, more often than not. And yeah, it's this sort of strange perversion of power that happened at the time where, you know, there's a, as we've spoken about, a patriarchal structure that people are under and they're under the thumb of and that they are sort of forced into. And of course, the family weren't aware of it until Joe eventually passed away many, many years later. So, yeah. Yeah, it really is an incredible story.

Thank you both for coming on. And Least Like the Other is at the Linbury Theatre at the Royal Opera House in London until tomorrow. Nisha Jones and Amy Niyari, thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. Now, are you a cat person? Well, my next guest certainly is. Writer Rhiannon Lucy Coslett has a book and it's called Year of the Cat, which details her love of her fairy pets, which also helps her to explore themes like mental health, relationships and motherhood as well. Now, Rhiannon is with me in the studio. Good morning. Welcome. Morning.

Great to see you. Tell me, first of all, though, why did you write this book? I was in the middle of what I suppose you might call a bit of a personal crisis during lockdown, where I was... I mean, who wasn't during lockdown? Well, I think we all were, exactly. I think my personal one was that I was trying to weigh up whether or not to become a mum. And then COVID happened, and it kind of felt like there was a big apocalypse. And it suddenly felt like the world wasn't a very hospitable place for doing that. So I adopted a kitten. And I think that enabled me to think through a lot of the things that I was thinking about, what it means to care for people, what it means to care for animals.

Looking after something more vulnerable taught me a lot and made me feel more confident in what I was doing and I just started writing about it and that's how I ended up with the book. And it seems as though you you took some comfort from looking after this cat and it brought you back to perhaps a time where you grew up with cats as a child didn't you and pets in the house? Yeah I did yeah to me a home has never really felt like a home without a cat. And I was living, I still live in rented accommodation. And I think particularly for my generation, those traditional markers of adulthood that we don't have access to, you know, landlords are often very uptight about pets. And a lot of people, you know, they don't feel that they have a right to a pet and yeah a cat I just think it gives you a feeling of safety and domesticity and it's another

heartbeat in the house as someone once described it to me and I just think that's so lovely you know and it gave me a feeling of stability and confidence I think. You've even spoken about kissing cats as well right? Well I... You're a a cat kisser no there's a joke there's a joke in the book about how like um basically when Covid was um going on there was this advice not to kiss your cat because you could catch Covid from your cat and my husband and I were laughing like who kisses their cat that's ridiculous but of course like you fall in love with the animal and they become part of the family yeah talk to me then about how it's helped you in terms of motherhood now that you have a newborn and the struggle that you were going through and deciding whether that was the right path for you.

I think, you know, as women, we were acutely aware of the impact that having children can have on our careers. There's still a huge motherhood penalty that we pay. What do you mean by that well you know loss of earnings loss of time I mean I've been I've been writing a column about parenthood for the guardian while my husband and I have been sharing the care of our baby and it's been so hard and you know that's that's as a freelancer where I'm not working full-time I'm not doing night shifts it's just it's's really, really difficult. And I think my generation of women particularly are really aware

that having a baby involves huge sacrifices. And also, I think we're a lot more open about motherhood these days as well and just how hard work it is. So I think I had very much the mindset of not wanting to be in that position again where you're looking after somebody more vulnerable because I knew also how all-cons consuming the love could be as well, which is a beautiful thing. But it's also a terrifying thing, I think, especially for someone like me who's had anxiety. And so looking after the cat kind of enabled me to go, well, you know, actually, I'm quite good at

this. I and I enjoy it. And I'm, cat is doing well. And I'm that's because of me. You know, I'm keeping this creature alive and giving it a nice life. And I think it is sort of taught me that, you know, maybe I would make a good mom after all, as well, because I think with mental health stuff, you you do have a feeling sometimes that you're not worthy of maybe being a mom, there's this idea that you have to be perfect in order to be a mother and you know any issue you might have you have to kind of bury or have sorted out by the time you have children which is just not realistic so I think I think there was that as well you know it was it was giving me the feeling of self-esteem that I needed in order to to be able to do it and how is it going what kind of mum you? I think I'm a good mum.

It feels scary to say that even, because, you know, people can be quite judgmental. But actually, you know, all the things I worried about, they didn't really come to pass. I thought I'd be terrified, you know, to look after a baby and I'd worry all the time about him getting sick. And, you know, it hasn't always been easy. There have been challenges.

He's been hospitalised. He came prematurely. All this stuff. But he's such a happy baby. And I just think that's the thing about anxiety sometimes. The things we worry about, they don't come to pass. And I wanted, you know, the book to kind of have a happy ending as well. And I think it does.

It's, you know, it goes to some quite dark places but it's also I think quite uplifting yeah you mentioned those dark places and of course I spoke about how you explore themes of mental health and trauma and you do speak about a time uh in your 20s where you were dealing with PSTD and anxiety because you were attacked in the street. Can you tell us a bit about that and how you've processed that event? Yeah, so when I was 23, I was attacked by a stranger who tried to strangle me. And he eventually went to prison, but I was left with PTSD. I found it very difficult to walk outside at night, things like that. And I received some very, very good therapy on the NHS. It was absolutely

brilliant, that helped me live mostly a normal life. But unfortunately, my husband and I's proximity to the Paris terror attacks in 2015 caused a relapse in the PTSD and I became practically agoraphobic for a short period of time. So again with the help of therapy I was able to get better but I think the thing about mental illness like that is even if you're functioning again there's always that fear that it'll come back and come to dominate your life again and And that was something I was very afraid of when I thought about becoming a mum, especially as I've had friends who, you know, have had mental health issues in the past, who've had babies where, you know, maybe the birth has been traumatic, and they've suffered from birth trauma, things like that. You know, it is something that I think

we're much more aware of these days. So yeah, I was basically scared to become a mum I think. Yeah and you spoke you speak about fear and trying not to let fear hold you back I suppose and is that something that you've been able to overcome or is it still I imagine a very much a work in progress? I think you know lots of mums have said to me that when their babies were really small they'd have these intrusive thoughts like oh my god what if I dropped the baby what if a car came plowing into us and that is kind of like a survival instinct that we have as mums in order to protect our babies and it kind of makes sense on an African plane when you're fighting off wild animals but in a city environment you know it can feel like a sort of misfiring and I think what's been really empowering for me as a mum is being able to recognise the parts of myself that aren't actually down to anxiety. They're down to like this amazing ability that we have to be hypervigilant to protect our children. And I've actually found it a lot less anxiety inducing than I thought I would. It's been it's been a really lovely experience, actually. Did you feel as though you carried a lot of your mother's mannerisms into becoming a mother yourself and passing them on to your child?

Definitely. I mean, my mum's an amazing mum and she. Tell us about your upbringing. So I grew up with a single mum and my brother, who's severely autistic, was at home until he went into full-time care when he was 14 and my mum was just the most amazing carer and I wanted the book to really convey how single motherhood can be amazing as well because I think there's this idea in the media that being a single mum it's like less than and actually my mum was amazing at creating a happy domestic environment for us, despite the challenges. And I think she showed me that you don't have to have the perfect setup in order to be a mother. And, you know, if you wait for everything to make sense, it just will never happen.

And, you know, she's great at looking after the cat as well, although the cat's quite tubby because she's been to stay. And she does spoil the cat just as she spoils her grandson. Brilliant. And you aren't the first female writer to share their love of cats. It's actually quite common, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And I've been thinking about why that is. I guess cats, it's easier to write when you have a cat than when you have a dog. Although the kitten used to bite the corners of the books I was reading and like dance across the keyboard and stuff. She very much leaves me alone now. Whilst I guess a dog, you have to walk them a couple of times a day.

They're quite demanding. So it'd be quite hard to write a novel when you've got a dog kind of yapping in the background. But yeah, in the book, I talk about various female writers and the relationships they've had with cats. Doris Lessing was one. She wrote a book called On Cats. Another one is Mary Gatesgill, who wrote a beautiful essay called Lost Cat, which is about how her cat went missing and how it made her think about

different types of love and what they mean. You know, that served as quite a big inspiration for me. It does. Rhiannon, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on Woman's Hour. Good luck with your book. Thank you. And best of luck. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. My name is Jonathan Myerson. And two years ago, we produced Nuremberg, a dramatized reconstruction of the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. Their crimes were indisputable. but one mystery remained.

How did this group of unremarkable men come to rule all of Germany? Our new podcast, Nazis, The Road to Power, unravels this improbable story in 16 episodes, starring Tom Mothersdale, Derek Jacoby, Alexander Vlahos, Toby Stephens, and Laura Donnelly. It remains a lesson for us all. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

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