Woman's Hour - Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace, Education activist Vee Kativhu, Pregnancy and homelessness

Episode Date: December 7, 2021

Emma speaks to the Secretary of State for Defence, Ben Wallace, about the government’s plans to improve women’s experiences in the armed forces. In particular she asks him to explain why the government has rejected calls for rape or sexual assault committed in the military to be tried in civilian courts, away from military courts.Education activist Vee Kativhu talks to Emma about why she set up her own YouTube channel, Empowered by Vee, shortly after arriving at the University of Oxford. Today, the Law Commission has published a major report on hate crime. One of the areas examined was the proposal to make misogyny a hate crime and so a criminal offence. To the disappointment of a coalition of women's rights campaigners, the Law Commission has said the move would not solve the “real problem” of hostility or prejudice directed against women because of their sex or gender. Emma is joined by criminal law commissioner, Professor Penny Lewis from the Law Commission. and Sue Fish, the former constable of Nottinghamshire police.Imagine expecting your first child and at the same time being homeless or facing homelessness in the near future. Emma is joined by Laura Jones, founder of PETRA, a project which helps young mothers and mothers-to-be with housing and Jade Toogood, a mother and former resident of a Petra Project home.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Felicity Finch. You may know me as Ruth in The Archers. I'm just asking for a few seconds of your time before you listen to the Woman's Hour podcast. This Christmas, thousands of people across the UK will be without a safe place to call home. But you can help change that.

St Martin's helps ensure that people experiencing homelessness can find and keep a safe place to live. Your gift could support someone to take the next step towards a more secure future. Please support the BBC Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields by donating online on the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal website. Whether you give every year or if it is your first, thank you. Now enjoy your podcast. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. My first guest today is the Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, who's here to explain his plan to make the UK's armed forces better for women,

both inside the military and out, and to explain why the government has rejected calls for rape or sexual assault committed in the military to be tried in civilian courts away from military courts. You'll hear that interview next and of course your views welcome. But you're also today going to hear from a woman who makes studying cool. Certainly that's how she's being described. V. Kativu's very popular revision videos on YouTube, on Instagram and other social media platforms have earned her thousands of followers and we need her today. Those preparing for exams or those living with those who are, she is on hand, especially after the last couple of

years with education being impacted by Covid. Her cheeriness, I promise you, will be infectious and also her handy hints. I want to get you to cast your mind back though to how you coped with your exams. It doesn't have to be revision hints, although they are welcome. I was always partial to a highlighter and essentially just learning everything by rote, writing it out again and again and sticking post-it notes wherever I was living, at whatever stage, whether I was at school, at home or at university, in our halls or rooms. It was a situation where if I just memorise it, I thought I'd get through it.

And I also had a few formulas along the way. But I have to say the way I lived during exams wasn't the most inspirational. Surviving on a very unhealthy diet, if eating at all, we used to get incredibly stressed. What were your tips? What were your routines?

Do you still have that dream where you think you've got an exam the next morning? I am all ears. 84844. Occasionally I do and I think I'm so happy I'm not in education anymore for many reasons. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. Also today on the programme, why misogyny is not going to be a hate crime, the Law Commission is on to explain all, and how one woman comes on today to talk about how she rebuilt her life after being homeless while pregnant. All of that to come. But my first guest, as I say, the Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, because last week the government set out how it will improve life for women in the armed

forces. You may recall the Conservative MP and former military personnel, Sarah Atherton, her Women in the Armed Forces report, which came out in July this year, which found that service women who were victims of bullying, harassment, discrimination and serious sexual assault were, quote, being denied justice by a woefully inadequate military complaints process. Well, Sarah Atherton came on the programme last week to analyse the measures the government announced in response to her report, which include a review into how to dismiss or discharge those who are found to have committed sexual offences or unacceptable sexual behaviour, and taking complaints of serious crime outside of the chain of command, establishing an independent victim and witness care unit, and ensuring there is female representation on court-martial boards relating to sexual offending.

But one recommendation the government is not prepared to do is to move all cases of rape within the armed forces from the military to the civil court system. This is despite politicians and campaigners supporting an amendment to the Armed Forces Bill to that effect, which was voted down last night in the House of Commons. Well, let's hear from Ben Wallace, Secretary of State for Defence. He joined me just before we came on air this morning, and I started by asking him if the government's plans to make the military better for women go far enough. I think what I'd say is no more than women in civilian workplaces.

I think there's still an unacceptable level in the workplace of sexism and inappropriate behaviour across the board. I think the difference is that in the past, reflected that into its own environment, I think. So I was just going to say, so it might be equal, but it hasn't been handled as well. Because I am just thinking of the fact that last month you called what was described as an extraordinary meeting of senior army leaders, presumably because you were very concerned about the culture of the military with regards to women.

Yes, look, I am, you know, on record as that, I'm very concerned that it hasn't caught up with society and it hasn't done its job well enough. You know, I joined my regiment in 1991. I think there was one woman out of 750 men, right? It is a different army. It is a different culture. That was 30 years ago. And when I see things still going on from when I was a serving officer, and I see the experience of women laid out for Sarah Atherton's report in the House of Commons, which I authorised also for the first time serving women to give evidence. And I think this is just not acceptable. And as a Secretary of State, I'm going to assert my authority. And whether or not they're generals or not, I don't care. I'm going to tell them what's acceptable or not acceptable, and we're

going to set about it. And these are parts of your proposals that have now been outlined, your response, which came out last week. Are you satisfied that those measures go far enough? I think I've gone further than Sarah's report. I've added extra measures in her report. I mean, she made 33, well, we accepted 33 of her recommendations, accepted another four partially and rejected really just one. And I think, you know, it is a full on, I went further than my officials wanted, and indeed the armed forces,

and made sure we put in place a whole range of measures that Sarah was concerned about. And I think she's done a fantastic report. I'm quite old school. I do believe that those select committees are there to help us. And, you know, I look forward to making sure they're delivered in a timely manner because the contrast in our report was also, well, lots of women had unsatisfactory experiences and, you know, totally unacceptable to me as the leader of defence. 90% still said they recommend a career in the armed forces because it provides a wonderful career and a wonderful opportunity. Yes, and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

But we also are aware that those who come forward are only the ones who come forward. And there have been plenty who've said they do not feel they can come forward, at least just about the fact that they want to still have a career and be in their job. So just mindful of that. And indeed, Sarah Atherton went on this programme last week did say that she welcomed the response. However, we'll come to that rejection in just a moment, because that has been in the spotlight yesterday in the comments. But she has questioned the mechanism by which action will be taken when women make allegations of abuse, saying your response was weak on that. It is not enough to say something will happen. We need to know what it is and how it will happen. Well, I think I have given the full details. And I think, Emma, if I could just lay out for your listeners, because some of the criticisms have confused the two parts of service justice. So there is the criminal path.

In other words, if you make an allegation of sexual assault or rape or anything, or any criminal offence, that is outwith the chain of command. That is investigated by an independent police, the Royal Military Police or the Service Police. It is referred to an independent service prosecutor who takes it or decides whether to prosecute enough or not, and the judge advocate is appointed by the Chief Justice. So that is a criminal system. If you make a criminal complaint, that is independent and very similar to the civil world.

Then there is what we call a service complaint, which is effectively can range from anything from inappropriate behavior to bullying, to sort of terms and conditions, which is similar to, for example, within the BBC, a worker making a complaint like that. That has in the past been handled by the chain of command, the direct chain of command, which causes women real problems or anybody else, a victim of bullying. You know, they'd have to tell the sergeant or the officer who is their boss about the complaint. I've decided that what we're going to do is within the service or within the army, a separate service complaint system outside that chain of command that you can, as Sarah said on your own program, I think you can download the form, fill it in. And so those are very, so that is a very concrete step that goes beyond what

the services wanted. It allows people to make those complaints. And just like the Civilian Society, complaints like that are handled within the organization. It's exactly the same in the BBC, you know, if a worker... No, no, so you understood the difference. It's important to... It's a service complaint and a criminal complaint. And we mustn't confuse the two. Let's have that distinction in our minds. It's very helpful.

However, you have decided not to, as you've just described, accept the recommendation that when military personnel are accused of rape or sexual assault, that the crime be tried in civil courts, not military. And this has been criticised by those in the military. And by, in fact, when you look at this, there was an amendment which would have included this provision in the Armed Forces Bill yesterday in the House of Lords.

It was defeated. But it is striking that the four Conservatives who voted against it, Sarah Atherton, Philip Holborn, Tom Tugendhat and Johnny Mercer, are all former army. So why are you not listening to the military? Well, because first of all, the recommendation was murder, manslaughter, rape and serious sexual assault. So let's start with the first principle here, which is if murder is taken out, why not attempted murder? Why not armed robbery? Why not sexual assault? Why not sexual touching? Why not GBH, ABH? Why draw the line around a small group of offences and not say actually all offences? In other words, let's get rid of this. Because it's highly specialised. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I cover this greatly on this programme. With the police this year,

I've done a great deal of focus on it, you can imagine, in light of the murder of Sarah Everard and also if the police are also to be trusted. Your own Justice Secretary, the former Justice Secretary, had to apologise for the low level of rape convictions in this country.

However, the expertise is there. And that's why not one but two recent reviews of the armed forces has recommended that change, that rape and sexual assault be tried in civil courts, not military. But well, so two parts. Maybe I could give you the statistics because this is also important. The CPS, the Civil Crime Prosecution Service, prosecute between 1.6% to 3% of rape cases. In 2020, 50% of rape investigations by service police in the military led to charges. And viewed as a proportion of allegations made rather than court case prosecutions, the conviction rate in the armed forces is 8% compared to approximately 2% in the civil space. So I don't, I don't think...

Well, if that's what you're going to trade numbers on, that your own government hasn't been able to do well in the civilian space for women who work outside the military. So we're going to stick with a system that's not trusted by many women in the military, even though reviews, excuse me, I have evidence for that. Even though reviews have recommended, two reviews have recommended you take this out of the military. I don't think that's anything to brag about. Well, I'm not bragging about it. I didn't say that the civil one is something we should be proud of. What I'm saying is, let's look at the facts and the outcomes. Secondly, what Sir John Murphy recommended, the former Chief Constable and the Lyons Murphy, was also backed up by High Court Justice Henriquez, who I appointed. And if you remember him,

he did a job on the Midland thing. Yes, he did. That one of the failings had been the lack of specialist, as you say, investigation capabilities. So going back to your point from Sarah Atherton, that is why we have stood up. And again, I have effectively overruled officials in the armed services to create a specialist defence serious crime unit so that there is a significant critical mass of expertise in the armed forces to to investigate these things properly and to make sure expertise we've already got and why not listen to service women and victims and fellow military people your fellow conservative mps on this change why do those four not think that you're doing the right thing. Look, there are four who don't.

There were clearly others who did. But they're all former military. That's what's so striking. You're a former military man and they're former military. Emma, there are more than four ex-military in Parliament. In the House of Commons, there's something like 30 or 40. Sorry, but one of them is a woman who wrote this report. Why are you not listening to her?

Let me finish up about the other part of the reforms we've done on murder, manslaughter and rape, which is what we've also said is when a charge is made, the independent service prosecutor will consult with the civilian CPS. And between the two of them, they will decide the most appropriate setting to try the case, right? And the last word will be given to the civilian prosecutor. I think that what I'm saying to you is you're trying to draw a line and make it that women in the armed forces feel confident about reporting abuse, whatever level, right? And that's where so many of those recommendations that Sarah Atherton has welcomed by you. But on this particular one, it is striking. Even a cursory look through armed forces personnel's Twitter accounts last night

shows they are not in favour of what you're doing, as well as the woman who wrote the report and three other former military members of your own party. And I'll give you one more. A female member of the Royal Navy whose rape case collapsed in a military court also has backed calls for serious offences committed in the UK within the military to be investigated and tried through civilian courts. She said the value of this amendment, which didn't pass, for women like me cannot be overstated.

So are you saying she's wrong? No, what I'm saying is the answer to people's concerns is to improve the quality of service investigations and service prosecutions and indeed trials, which is the steps we've done. The answer is not to junk the service justice system. The answer is how do we address the actual core challenges, which is the quality of investigations,

to also demonstrate to women and others in the armed forces that these investigations are independent, they're outside the chain of command, to also demonstrate... But they're not. They're not going to be independent if they're not in the civil world. There are lots of people just saying, let the people who've got the specialism do it. We've had majority male juries. We've had systems that have made women lose faith and trust. It's time now with not one but two reports, Defence Secretary, to listen and take it outside. Do you think you've made an error here?

No, I don't, Emma, because I don't think you can salami slice the service justice system. You can't pick offences and move them out, you know, because also, you know, if you're accused of any offence, murder or manslaughter or rape or whatever, remember that that person's liberty is as precious wherever they are, right? So if I was, let's say, accused of attempted murder, I might say, hang on, well, if attempted murders,

why is it good enough for me to be tried for my liberty, which potentially carries a life sentence in a military setting, but if I'm accused of murder, that's not good enough, it has to go into the civil world. I think the question at heart here is, what are the quality of the investigations like? How do we make sure they're independent?

And I have taken very strong steps to improve that quality, a defence serious crime unit that will be totally separate from the other police investigations. I have made sure we take steps to assure that process, hence the reason the High Court Judge Henriquez was stepped. And I've also addressed some of his issues so that the choice remains about where people are prosecuted

by the Crown Prosecution Service in conjunction with the service prosecutor. But it's still not in the civil area, which is what women have called for. Emma, it's still not in the civil area, which is what women have called for. Emma, it's not ruling out the civil. It's not ruling it in.

The defeat of the House of Lords amendment, which would have seen this, was pretty comprehensive. Well, Emma, the House of Commons, the elected House overturned that. And I just look, let me just remind your listeners, because I think it's quite important. I trust the Crime Prosecution Service, the prosecutor, to have a discussion with the independent service prosecutor to decide amongst them. And remember, it's in their interest to prosecute successfully to make the decision about whether that is held in a civilian court or whether that's held in a service court. At present, until I've done the changes, the final word was effective with the service justice system. So I've moved the final word into the civil. I've allowed the experts, not you and me,

but the experts to make a choice about where is the most appropriate setting to try that. And remember, it's in their business to prosecute successfully to make the case for where they want to make the appropriate setting. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And at the same time, I have increased the quality of investigations and specialists. So we have a critical mass of specialists to make sure that that is helped and supported. And what we'll be doing when the government's review of rape and sexual offences is published, we'll be making sure we transfer many of those things

into the armed forces with our own strategy. But there is also something I'd like just to remind you... It's a big call. It's a big call. Yes, you've introduced other systems and independence into the system, but as we've talked about, and I do want to move on to other things, you have gone against that recommendation from two reports. And it's a big call by you. And it will be interesting and very important to see whether women feel that it improves their existence and their experience within the armed forces. And I think that another element of this, which is why

the backdrop to that extraordinary meeting you called last month that you mentioned a little bit at the beginning of our conversation, is also how the military treats women outside of the military when they're stationed somewhere. And of course, the case of Agnes Wanjiru, the Kenyan woman who died in 2012, was last seen in the company of two British soldiers, has been raised by the Sunday Times. A Kenyan magistrate concluded after an inquest in 2019 that Ms Wendiru had been murdered by one or two British soldiers. It's been described as an open secret, even a joke within the Duke of Lancaster Regiment. What have you personally done to raise the case of this or what is the latest on that? Well, even before the Sunday Times story

broke, I raised a number of cases, not just that one, with my Kenyan counterpart. And, you know, this tragic death of this lady happened, I think, over a decade ago. And, you know, when the Sunday Times brought that one to prominence, I asked the questions. And what happened was over a decade ago, the Kenyans requested names and details. We gave them the names and we offered even to help them with what we call a MLA, a mutual legal assistance process, which is often done confidentially because you don't want to let suspects know that it's going on. And the Kenyan authorities didn't request any further details on that. We have stood by throughout the process to offer help. We have in... Do you know who killed her?

I don't know the full details of that case because... But does the MAD have the name of the soldier who allegedly killed her? Well, the service police... Look, Emma, going back to our earlier conversation, police investigations in this department or anywhere else are independent. I don't have the authority, nor should I, it would be inappropriate, to ask about ongoing police investigations. Is it ongoing? I know we have to be careful, but is it ongoing?

I suppose I'm trying to understand, is this man still serving? It is a Kenyan lead, this investigation, the Kenyan police. I cannot, what I can do is make sure we support any requests from the Kenyans, and we already have done on a range of cases. But I cannot, you know, the questions about is there an investigation is a matter for the Kenyan government and High Commission. I can't tell you. I accept legally that's the situation and everybody has the right to a fair trial.

I suppose the issue is some of the soldiers from that regiment are alleging that this is a cover up in the army. Is that right? Can I ask you that? So I have looked back. There is no evidence that I have found that there was a cover up by commanding officers at the time or anything else. Right. Which was one of the allegations made. What I can tell you is at the time we offered we submitted a number of names to the Kenyan police. We offered assistance in the MLA. There are the mutual sort of requests, which is, you know, you can request a British police officer goes to interview someone and all that sort of thing that that wasn't acted on at the time.

You do have his name or somebody in the Ministry of Defence has the alleged killer's name. Well, we all read the newspapers. I mean, I, you know. Well, you're the defence secretary. You don't just read the papers. But I'm not the police, Emma. No, no, no. But this is about, we've been talking about the culture of cover-up, potentially. The culture of policing and the military policing

itself. There's no cover-up, Emma. The police investigation is led by the Kenyans, right? It's not for me to interfere with the police investigation. I accept that, but I will do everything I can to support that investigation. Is he still serving the man whose name was given? Look, I'm not going to speculate, Emma,

about the ins and outs of a potential or current ongoing criminal case. I cannot do that. Do you have faith that there will be justice? Well, I can do it from my side. I can do everything I can, which is to support every request and, in fact, be proactive, as we have been, with the Kenyan authorities, to offer all the assistance we can.

If there are offences that come out of this that are UK jurisdiction, our service police will absolutely have the ability and should to investigate. Of course, and I'm not asking you to go beyond that. I'm just trying to understand that there is a name, there is somebody still serving, and it's not under your jurisdiction. Emma, I can't comment about any of the names or the speculation or whether they're serving or not. All I can say is this is a matter for the Kenyan police. And do you think they're going to handle it appropriately? Have you got any idea? I'm not going to, Emma, it's, you know,

Emma, I'm not going to, you know, there is a Kenyan police investigation, right? It is for them. But we will lean in and support. Is that active now? Are you leaning in at the moment? I'm trying to understand. Is there an active investigation? We are leaning in on a range of issues in Kenya, a range of offences, whether committed more recently or whether committed in the past. Absolutely determined that we are serving around the world. You know, the lessons from Oxfam are very, very clear that, you know, and this is slightly goes to my point earlier about the cultural shift. It is a different army than it was when I was in, but it doesn't seem to necessarily behave that way.

We have to absolutely change that. Just to remind our listeners, I'm sorry to interrupt, that when you talk about Oxfam, you're talking about the allegations of aid workers abusing women and abusing their position of power. I just wanted to come to culture, if I may, and I'm grateful for your time this morning. It was striking, of course, that the outgoing Chief of Defence Staff, General Sir Nick Carter, said it was imperative to encourage a laddish culture in the army, as ultimately our soldiers have to go close and personal with the enemy. He's actually since apologised for using that exact term, saying what he meant was controlled aggression is a useful quality on the battlefield. I just wonder, how do you keep alive that killing mentality, that laddish culture, as he first called it, while trying to create a modern military?

Where do you come out on that? I think, and tragically we see around the world, they're not mutually exclusive, having a modern military and being a lethal military. There are plenty of women who are lethal killers in the same way there are plenty of men. It's not something we should celebrate insofar as not something, you know, but it is a necessary function of defense. And but you're right about the culture. So all of these recommendations, all of the different reports, the Lions, the Wigston report, the, you know, Sarah Atherton's report are only going to be successful. And the vast majority, I mean, like 90% of the recommendations that we have accepted will only be accepted if it's

accompanied by a cultural change. And I give you an example of a cultural change that I think will start to affect people. People care about their careers. They really do. And when I, this wasn't a recommendation in the Aston report, but I took a view that if someone makes a service complaint, so not a criminal, but a service complaint, and it isn't dealt with properly by the chain of command or the people who are supposed to deal with it, you can make a recommendation to the ombudsman. You can refer yourself to the ombudsman. I took the view that if she finds in your favor that the chain of command or the military did not handle your case properly, then those senior officers, it should be entered into their career and their job records that they

had a finding against them from the ombudsman. That should affect their careers. That's going to help change culture, whether they like it or not, because it will show where the reward and punishment is in a process. That was not an Atherton recommendation or anybody else's. And that is an important change because, of course, if it affects your career,

you take notice. It hits you in a different way. I suppose what was very difficult, and I was talking to Dan Jarvis, also Labour MP, but former soldier himself, about how much harder it is to police after hours, the culture, when booze is involved and the way that you have to unwind.

And that is very difficult to change, I imagine. Look, any sort of institution that is often restrictive and often under high pressure is a different institution. I mean, one of the reasons we have a service justice system is because it's not about making excuses for soldiers. It is they are under a very different set of laws. They are around the world. They're often in different jurisdictions that have no standard of laws that we recognize. So we have to have a unique service justice system. It makes it does give us more powers. I mean, leaders do have powers around just basically bad behavior, being an offense.

Contrary to good conduct, I think it used to be called. People could get locked up for that in my day. You know, you can't you can't go on the street and say to a civilian, you know, I don't like I don't like the way you're behaving. You're you're bringing me into disrepute. You're going to jail. So they do. They do have some tougher rules. But it is hard. But that's why I'm so determined that we have more women into the armed forces because you've got to keep them. You've got to keep them. So one of your one of your goals is to boost the recruitment by 30%. But actually, I was speaking to somebody yesterday in the military about this and said, actually, while that's a laudable goal, it's about retaining them. And one of the issues is once you have a child, the others around you, usually men, continue to add to their career progression because of the number of years that they have. And the women, even though they don't get penalised per se, but by virtue of what happens to mostly the men, fall behind.

Well, so on that, that's why I suggested and we put in our manifesto wraparound childcare. So we are going to offer, we are offering a free wraparound childcare for service personnel, right? Now that no one else in the public sector gets that. That means the after-school clubs or the breakfast clubs will be paid for because Army is not 9-5. People can't tailor the... When's that coming in, Bo? So we've already piloted it in, I think, three or four areas,

and by the end of next year, it will be fully in. And on that point about mainly the men who continue to add by the number of years, and that helps with their promotion quicker, are you going to address that? We will absolutely look at ways of using our reserves. So at the moment, our reserves, the old territorial, are very separate from, have been in the past, too separate from the regulars.

And I think if we bring our reserves much closer to regulars, which we are now doing, it allows people to step up and step down to take breaks in a way that historically has been all or nothing. But actually, your central charge is the same charge that goes across in the civilian world, which is the gender pay gap, which is effectively, while people don't go up ranks in the civilian world, they go up pay scales often, as women have to take career breaks or are taking career breaks for their children. And I think that is a very valid challenge. It's, you know, I look at how the civil service operates, and I'm quite envious of that and think, you know, I know lots of women in the civil service who have had children managed to step down or go into flexi timing and come back. And I think

the armed forces should be able to do more of that, which is what we're looking at in our people strategy and working alongside the reserves. We look forward to hearing from you again on that as things develop. I'm sure a lot of work to do. May I just finally bring your attention to what's in the news today, the evacuation of Afghanistan. A whistleblower in the Foreign Office has described the chaos, including just to link it to your department, eight soldiers working around one computer, the foreign office not recognising MOD clearance. It doesn't paint a great picture

of what was going on in August. And I just wanted to ask with regards to, you know, having faith in what's happening now to the women and girls who've been given priority in the plans to resettle 20,000 refugees fleeing the Taliban. Are you happy that many of the women evacuated to the UK, of course, some pregnant, some with small children, are still in hotels or living in unsuitable accommodation? Well, first of all, I read those reports and some of the allegations are just simply not true. But I would say it was, if you remember, a very pressurized environment. We had tens, hundreds of thousands around an airport trying to flee.

The British went in and I met only last week some of the women who went right to the front of those queues from the British Army out 15,000 people over the period. We did it in often quite dangerous. And if you remember, American soldiers lost their lives because of an attack. We are still getting them out. We've got out over 400 since we have left from Afghanistan.

And in the areas I'm in charge of, making sure that they touch base with veterans, I think we've got over 500 military accommodation, service accommodation in a married quarters that I have made available to local authorities. Disappointingly, local authorities have not nearly taken up anywhere near that many. But we have put them at their disposal because I don't think it's right that they're sitting in hotels. I do think they should be out in local authorities. The scheme is much more generous to local authorities than it is normally to normal refugees or asylum seekers.

And, you know, I would urge anyone from local authority here listening to your programme to reach out and take up our offer of more housing. There are hundreds laying empty. We will speak to hundreds laying empty, you say? Well, we've offered 550, and I think they've taken so far about 30. We will endeavour to speak to some from local authorities, especially where we've been able to make contact

with some of those women and children. Ben Wallace, thank you very much for your time this morning. Thank you, Emma. Thank you. Secretary of State for Defence speaking to me earlier this morning. Now I did ask you at the beginning of the programme for some of your memories of preparing for exams because the 23 year old woman who makes studying cool has just walked into my studio and if you're preparing for exams or living with someone who is, turn the radio up. V Kativu was told Oxford University wasn't for people like

her, or she proved her teachers wrong by graduating recently from there with a degree in classical archaeology and ancient history, and for good measure is now studying international education policy at Harvard with the hope of becoming a policy advisor for girls' education in Zimbabwe. Not bad for a girl who arrived in England from Zimbabwe aged six, not being able to speak a word of English. Her popular YouTube channel gives out studying tips. Her best mate is fellow Oxford grad Malala Yousafzai. And now she has a new book out called Empowered, Live Your Life with Passion and Purpose. V, good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. I feel really honoured and privileged to be here.

Well, we're very happy to have you. And I just wanted to start by asking, because when I think about revising, I start to get a bit hot, a bit scared, a bit worried. And we're seeing a lot of people get in touch with those sorts of messages. Why did you decide to try and help others and chronicle your time with videos at Oxford? Well, when I arrived at Oxford, I felt really excited to be there. And I loved what I was seeing, what I was doing. But I realised that there was a lack of diversity and I questioned that quite a lot because I believe that places such as Oxford, Cambridge and other incredible institutions are going to be the places where future leaders are going to be born and all of this stuff. And I just thought, if you're going to be having a table where changemakers are sitting, why aren't there more people like me represented here? So I thought,

well, I don't want to sit and complain about the issue. I want to do something about it. And that's where my YouTube channel was born. I always say it was born out of a place of anger, if you may, anger and passion of wanting to make sure we had more people represented in spaces like that so and and demystify that that whole space some of your friends who weren't going there you know genuinely believed it was like harry potter yes absolutely whenever i went back home from university breaks everyone would be like what are you eating there how does everyone speak are they riding around wearing harry potter gowns and eating lobsters for breakfast and I was like no the gowns are a bit it's a bit true maybe not yes of course but I realized that there was something missing there was a gap that needed to be bridged where young people from backgrounds

like mine thought that a space like Oxford was unattainable for them and yeah the channel began out of wanting to show myself being a young black woman unapologetically living my truth and prospering in a space like Oxford without having to change or conform in any way. And I have to say that's very important but I also particularly love how much you love the work. Yes. You know unashamedly having that joy if I can call it joy maybe you don't feel it do you actually like revising yes absolutely because I just since a young age I've just always known that my voice and my power comes from the more that I know so I used to love reading I was always the fastest reader you know my mum would tell you

the thing I got in trouble for growing up was taking too many books from the library and getting a fine right from the library you badass and exactly so from a very young age it was always that way so when I got to Oxford I was like finally I'm being seen for who I am I go to like a tutorial and they're asking me why did you use this word in your essay how come you explained it this way whereas before that you know you'd write an essay it gets graded and that's the end of that no discussion but at Oxford they were to me. My opinion was valued and this was heaven for me. So when I began the channel, I mean, I think my love for studying really came through.

One of the videos that has gone viral is revision by repetition. And I went to have another look at it this morning. And I love the fact that you also mentioned, sorry that you've got chipped nails because, you know, when you're revising, you can't focus on those things. These are the important side details.

But for anyone listening who's struggling, can you summarise it for us? What can they do? OK, so I have this amazing book that I read when I was younger called How to Ace Your A-Levels. And I've sworn by it up until the point of even going to Harvard. And in that book, there's this repetition revision method where it tells you that if you're going to go into exams like you can't just revise a topic one time and expect yourself to know it and just regurgitate it because it's just impossible and the analogy that I use is if Beyonce was having a concert and she just put out music the night before you're not going to listen to that song once and then get on stage and sing along you won't know the words you need to listen to at

least four or five times the acoustic version the drumming version all the different versions until you know it for yourself and that's the same with revision you need to go through your topics at least three or four times in depth there's different types go watch the video but there's different ways to go through it but at least four times before sitting the exam because it just won't go in so the repetition revision method is my best friend of life and I think I'll swear by it even if I do a PhD. I love this image. It was in one of the interviews with you.

You said Malala lived next door, I believe, or close by the university and that you'd both go off, do a lecture. One of you would go to do a talk in London, then come back and the other one and then you just have breakfast together. it was a really beautiful experience and I think that was what was really interesting about being at Oxford with all of these amazing students is that everybody was just never just a student like you'd have by day they're like this amazing world champion chess player or they're doing some training for like future Olympics or they're going off to do talks around the world.

Or winning Nobel Peace Prize. Exactly. It was just amazing. It wasn't like that at my university, but I'm really happy. But take me through it. So you have breakfast together after just, you know, winning at life. Yes, exactly. I think it's just a beautiful experience to also know that you're just young people who are wanting to make a change in the world. And you also still need breakfast. You also have chipped nails and you also have an essay crisis. What breakfast are we talking about?

Full English, of course. There we go. Okay, I just want to put myself in the scene of the most motivated group of students in the world, perhaps. We're Women's Hour, we focus on women. And I was very struck by the sacrifice your mum made for you. She made the decision to come over here to give you a better life and your family. And you were actually separated for some time. Yeah, we were. Just a few years, could be four or five.

And I just didn't get to be with her. And I think that's such a story that's true to so many young people with migrant families, is that when you have that moment of being apart it's it's so difficult you have to rebuild those bonds and luckily for my mom and I and I talk about it a lot in the book that she just became my best friend instantly right we we happen to be able to bond back together but that's not true for everybody and that's why I was so excited about writing my new book is because it's not a unique story to me. It's not like, oh, I had this sad upbringing or I had this moment of being separated from my mom and boohoo me.

It's like this is so many people's reality. And I really wanted to write about the lives that so many of us lead, but just don't often see written about. And I'm really I'm really glad that I did because yeah that was a hard time of course and I think it's important to to remember and and pay tribute to as well as what you're talking about now what is the future of course there's just a little bit left for you to achieve at 23 the future is really really bright and I'm very excited because I think I'm just at the start of my journey like this tip of the iceberg you know there's so many things that I want to do especially in the girls education space it's it's just an issue that I can't go to bed without thinking about it when I wake up it's all I want to talk about and

I just want to be involved in that and sit at the table with other young change makers and ensure that girls are getting that safe quality and free education you know it's it's just a shame are you talking about around the world are you know it's it's just a shame are you talking about around the world are you talking yes around the world so I always tell people the distinction when I'm like in the UK is campaigning for access to education for underrepresented groups and underrepresented students and then when it's on the global scale it's more about girls education and getting girls into school and keeping them in school and getting that equal education to their male counterpart very Very disciplined distinction.

As someone who spends a lot of time interviewing politicians, I appreciate you putting those lines there and explaining it. I think we're going to meet again. I hope so. I really do. This is such an honour to be here. Thank you so much for coming in. The book's called Empowered. Live your life with passion and purpose.

Vika TV, thank you to you and all the best to you. Libby says, I learnt by rote like you, Emma. Writing lists, testing, retesting myself. Had an old tape recorder, recorded material. Fell asleep listening to it in preparation for exams. I listened in my sleep. Another one here. I loved exams.

We had a wonderful teacher who used to say, this is your chance to show off and get the marks you deserve. I told my children the same thing and we'll all do well at exams because we work hard for them and then we show off. Of course, not everybody, I suppose, can do that. I'll be well aware of that. That's from Atlanta. And I love this one. I was revising for GCSEs in a very hot summer and I like to sunbathe. So I lay on a sun lounger with all my neatly written notes, pegged to a music stand so I could fully tan. That is a woman, I believe it's a woman, no name to it, who's got her priorities right.

Thank you very much. Keep those messages coming in. But today, the Law Commission, an independent body that recommends legal changes, has published a major report on hate crime. One of the areas examined in this wide-ranging consultation was the proposal to make misogyny a hate crime and so a criminal offence. But the Law Commission, in its new report,

has said the move would not solve the real problem of hostility or prejudice directed against women because of their sex or gender. A coalition of women's rights campaigners have voiced their disappointment at this decision. Well, let's talk to the Criminal Law Commissioner, Professor Penny Lewis from the Law Commission. And I'm going to be speaking in just a moment to Sue Fish,

former constable of Nottinghamshire Police. Professor Penny Lewis, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for joining us today. Why is misogyny not going to be made a hate crime? Well, there's undoubtedly a serious problem of misogynistic abuse, harassment and violence against women and girls. The question for the Law Commission was whether hate crime laws would be an appropriate and effective mechanism to address this. Let me just very briefly explain how hate crime laws work. They don't create new offenses for the most part. What they do is make existing offenses like, say, assault more serious, where there's additional proof that the defendant was motivated by or demonstrated hostility towards a protected characteristic of the victim. So, for example, an assault accompanied

by a racial slur would become racially aggravated assault, and that would receive a more serious sentence. What we've concluded is that requiring additional proof of such hostility towards women or towards the sex or gender of the victim would be unhelpful and counterproductive in the case of sexual offenses and domestic abuse, which are two of the most prevalent types of offending against women and girls. It would potentially make these prosecutions more difficult and create unnecessary hierarchies between victims. Given that these are two of the most harmful contexts for women and girls, retaining the use of hate crime laws in other contexts would be somewhat tokenistic. And it would also mean that this characteristic sex or gender would be treated

very differently from all others. In some way, it would be the poor relation of hate crime characteristics, and that would run counter to our recommendations to treat all characteristics equally. We also think that many instances of conduct that are raised by campaigners, for example, public sexual harassment, whether that's on the street or online, would not be caught by the hostility test that's used in hate crime law. And finally, we think that there are more effective ways to target violence against women and girls. So we've recommended a specific offense of stirring up hatred on the basis of sex or gender,

which would target dangerously misogynistic extremist incel content. We've recently recommended, and indeed we recommended back in 2015, the criminalisation of threats to rape. We've recently recommended the criminalisation of cyber flashing. And we're looking at the moment at the taking, making and sharing of intimate images without consent and using evidence in rape and sexual offence prosecutions. Let me come back, if I may, let me come back to that latter part. A lot of information there for which we're appreciative. Sue Fish, a former chief constable, I should say, of Nottinghamshire Police. You are somebody who backed misogyny becoming a hate crime.

You've just heard the reasons, as have our listeners. It would be unhelpful, counterproductive. It would make prosecutions more difficult. Why were you supporting it, Sue? and I listened to women who told me about their experiences. And I think what Penny has explained is helpful in understanding the Law Commission's perspective. But I think fundamentally it fails to recognise how hatred drives crimes against women and how crimes that are so often invisible are actually reported and that was the case in my experience in Nottinghamshire because we were looking at a cultural shift understanding what drives offending against violence and against women and girls and this made a significant difference I mean I get a further point I'd make would be about the Law Commission's report doesn't join together hate crime.

And I have to say, particularly when it impacts on women from minority communities who experience hate based on multiple factors. You know, it could be because of the colour of their skin. It could be because of religiously significant clothing. It's also because of their gender. And so you then have to deny an aspect of their self, i.e. their gender. Let me allow Penny to come back on that. Penny. Thank you. Yes. I think the real problem here is that hate crime is a blunt tool. So it requires proof of this hostility. And in the vast majority of cases, that's through the demonstration of hostility, usually some kind of slur or, for example, a swastika painted onto a synagogue. So something really explicit. Now, there are contexts where there's explicitly gendered slurs. For example, harassment in the street where women are called, for example, the C word.

But there are many other contexts which are also misogynistic, where there isn't that overt demonstration of hostility. And the result of introducing hate crime law into this context would be to send a message that that kind of offending isn't misogynistic. And we think that's a dangerous message to send. And it's incorrect. Instead, we think we should prosecute existing offenses. So harassment's already an offense. Hate crime law doesn't change that. Where we think there might be a gap is public sexual harassment, where there's sexualised, degrading language, unwanted sexual advances. That type of behaviour isn't generally captured by existing harassment offences.

And we think it's worth taking a look at that. Sue Fish, final response from you on that? I think it's not just about sexualised incidents of intimidation. It's also about whether or not. And I just think that means that the default position now for hate crime is a male default position. And I think women have waited too long to be equally protected under the law. And yet again, they have been failed. Well, I should say this is from the Law Commission, an independent body. The government will now take its time to respond to it and see what happens on that front. Thank you very much to both of you. We didn't quite get onto the other area of that. Perhaps we could come back to that that was mentioned there.

But we wanted to make sure we brought you up to date on what was the latest with suggestions around making misogyny a hate crime. Now, I just want to tell you about my next guest who has rebuilt her life having found herself without a home when she fell pregnant with her then new boyfriend. She sought help and found it through the Petra Project which helps homeless young mothers and mothers-to-be to live in suitable homes. The project has received a grant from St Martin in the Fields charity which provides emergency financial support so that people in vulnerable situations can find and keep a safe place to live. Jade Tugud now lives independently with her partner and two children.

And Laura Jones is the founder of Petra Law. I'll come to you in just a moment. But Jade, do take us back to how old you were when you became pregnant and where you were living at that time. Hiya. I was 20 when I fell pregnant. I was living at home with my parents and my older brother in a two bedroom council property. My parents were living, sleeping down in the living room on a sofa bed. So ideally it wasn't capable and suitable to have a newborn baby in that environment. And you sought some help didn't you? Yeah so I went to the local housing authority and they put me in contact with Petra and also another hostel. I viewed them both and just Petra

fitted straight away it was going from a loving home to a loving environment. Yeah, because I should say it was very early on in your relationship, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We was only together for, I'd say, a couple of months, a month or so. And then I've become pregnant, so we thought the best option would be to kind of move. And can you describe living in the Petra house and how that was compared to other hostels? Yeah, so Petra just felt like home, as I said.

There was art on the wall. It was decorated homely. The other hostel I viewed, there was like metal treads on the carpets. There was pictures of sexual health all over the walls. Yeah, it just didn't feel a good place to raise a child in. But Petra, it just felt homely. Laura, that's what you're obviously trying to achieve.

Yeah, we were trying to go for a housing option that provided mums and especially their babies with an environment that they would thrive and would feel like a firm foundation for them and most importantly just feel like home so it kind of seems strange to us that um when mums were going into a hostel that they would need to kind of it would need to feel like a hostel we were like why can't it just feel like a beautiful family home where they can kind of almost have like toddlers in the lounge and you know just just enjoy their time where they're there um to prepare them and and get them ready for independence I mean you have all sorts of women coming to you don't you from different backgrounds who find themselves homeless or without somewhere appropriate to stay when they are expecting a child or with a young one?

Yeah, I mean, most of our mums would probably fall into that category of either sofa surfing or living in overcrowded housing environment. But certainly we've taken street homeless, we've taken, we take mums who are leaving care, so we've been in the foster care system, especially over the pandemic, a lot of family or relationship breakdown. And when you look at how long they stay, is there a kind of a trend there or does it really vary? Yeah, since the pandemic, a bit longer because housing is harder but that you know the housing provision is just not as much around now so um it's normally around about a year to 18 months that they stay with us yes and i think it's one of those things where perhaps you don't think about the specific needs until you hear um when something has been created that does cater for that jade how's life for you now where do you live now what's what's life like so i've recently

moved in to our forever homeless day um so we've got two children now two boys um we're recently engaged oh congratulations yeah i work part-time so life is great well it's wonderful to hear that um and i suppose for you the petra project has made an enormous impact yeah i feel like it's wonderful to hear that. And I suppose for you, the Petra Project has made an enormous impact. Yeah, I feel like it's made a foundation, really. Like I'm thriving as a mother. I've got a loving family home for my children to grow up in. And yeah, it's just great. Well, thank you very much for talking to us. I hope you have a wonderful Christmas in your forever home with all that happiness and and celebration and laura thank you uh to you because i suppose you know if people don't necessarily think about that as i say those needs that that those individual women will have is there anything you wanted to add or leave our listeners with yeah well just

i'm really proud of petra um it's an amazing project we run six homes um across the southwest um we're able to support um 20 mothers and seven young people. Yeah, we're part of Mess in Action, get that in there. And we've been very fortunate to be funded by St John's Fund and the Big Lottery. And yeah, we just love doing what we do. We've got an amazing team who are just committed to continuing to support the mums however they need it and however they come to us. Well, all the best to you. Thank you very much indeed.

I did mention that the project has received a grant from St Martin's in the Fields charity. Jade Tugud and Laura Jones, thank you to you. And to donate to the BBC Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin's in the Fields, you can call 0800 082 8284 now4 now calls are free from landlines and mobiles and for more information please go to the radio for christmas appeal website where you can find out how to donate more about where the money goes and also what's being supported and rather who's being

supported but we wanted to introduce you to jade this morning and also to laura so introduce you to Jade this morning and also to Laura so thank you to them more messages about exams and and how you cope and I've got a message here saying Libby says I forget it all the minute the exam was over anyone employ me on that basis that I knew any of the information crammed for exams would be sadly disappointed and my son scored a memorable null points for one of his A-level exams by simply forgetting to turn up. It was 20 years ago, but I still feel the conflicting emotions, guilt, rage, frustration. I'm glad to say we can laugh about it now with the passage of time. You realise how little exams really matter. That's Julia giving a very different take on this. A lot of you seem to love them, but some of you still

waking up with those panic dreams. Thank you very much for your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.