Woman's Hour - SEND Best Practice: What is working?

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

In a phone-in programme focusing on Special Educational Needs and Disabilities, Nuala McGovern talks to listeners about SEND provision in educational settings with a focus on what is working. Mums of children with SEND share examples of what they personally think of as good practice in their schools and nurseries and SEND educational professionals and workers suggest potential solutions and innovative concepts that could potentially be passed on, scaled up and rolled out in versions across the UK.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Rebecca Myatt

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, today we are going to continue our coverage of SEND. That's Special Educational Needs and Disabilities. And we want to hear from you. We want your voices on our phone in which is starting now and let me tell you the hour is going to go in quickly. Today we're looking at

best practice. What in the SEND mainstream educational system is working for your child and for you? So if you want to participate the number to call is 03 700 100 444. Now some of you will be very familiar with the language around this issue, others less so. So SEND stands for Children with Special Educational Needs and Disabilities in England. In Scotland, the system is called ASN, Additional Support Needs. In Wales, it's ALN, Additional Learning Ne needs. And in Northern Ireland, it's known as the SEN register. So that is the Special Educational Needs Register. And you may have heard our edition of Woman's Hour last month when so many of you got in touch to tell us that the SEN system is broken. We had the Minister of State for Schools, that's Minister Catherine McKinnell.

She took part in the programme saying that the government thinks that children with SEND should be at the heart of the educational system and she promised that changes will come. Well, we have since then also looked at the topics of training for teachers of children with SEND. We've spoken about the problems that some mums have with the price of school transport and there's so many other thorny issues that we will be visiting in the weeks and months ahead. But today it is very much about what is working. I'm asking those of you who have had a positive experience to share it with us in the next hour. What is best practice that you have witnessed? So maybe you're a special educational needs coordinator teacher or SENCO as it's called, a speech and language therapist, maybe an educational psychologist or a teaching

assistant or another worker within the system. Or maybe you're a mum with a child with SEND. What does good look like? I want you to let us know what's happening in your nurseries, your primary or secondary schools, where you see potential solutions, innovative concepts, the ideas that you think might work for others that you can pass on or perhaps should be scaled up or rolled out to other local authorities. Again, the number 03 700 100 444. Other ways to also get in touch with the programme, you can text us as usual 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website.

For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. I want to begin with Lou. You're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Lou, tell me what's working for you and your child. So I'm very lucky in that my son is currently at a grammar school that are very supportive. So my son has ADHD. He got his diagnosis back in 2020. And we previously had a really poor experience at his first secondary school.

We're a military family, so we move a lot. I had to get his EHCP myself. The support from the SEND team was really good, but it wasn't disseminated. And for me, that is the key to good SEND support it's all well and good having SENCOs and a SEND team who are you know experienced knowledgeable do all the training but if that is not shared amongst the teaching faculty you cannot expect decent support for your children so from our perspective I could not be more appreciative of the school.

Now, don't get me wrong. My son has been suspended for 19 days in the last academic year. But, you know, which probably sounds terrible, but I know if it's at the point where he's being suspended, things have gone catastrophically wrong um they very much took on board my recommendations around um sanctioning needing to be restorative not punitive it can't be used as a tool to punish him it needs to be he needs to be given an opportunity to make reparations um he had a new i mean this is just an example of their phenomenal practice um he had a new, I mean, this is just an example of their phenomenal practice. He had a new biology teacher and he's very much one of those children that if he doesn't like the teacher, he won't engage. And they recognised this quite early on. So they arranged for a mediation between him and the biology teacher so that they could have a conversation about what was going

wrong what was breaking down how could they move forward um even the lsa that supports edward at school will ring in with to ring me and check in just to see how i am not even feedback about edward just to ask because she knows things are very very challenging um i just i cannot i can't praise them enough we have meetings at the school where we are able to um share our perspectives if there's anything that works at home they ask about it so that we can um they can use it at school um yeah they're just phenomenal they They really, really are. They are kind, compassionate. They send emails, giving me feedback. And it might be that there's things that are going wrong, but they will always caveat that with some positives so that we've got something

good to take away. They will ring me and let me know if there's going to be a sanction. Yeah, they're just phenomenal. It's about communication and they communicate really openly with me and they ensure that the teachers are on board with the plan that they've put in place. So it's not just that the SEM team are really good. It is something that has been taken on board by the school, the head. You know, the whole school ethos is about supporting those with additional needs. And yeah, I cannot praise them enough.

How is your son? So he's really challenging. He's really, he can be really hard work, but he's also very likeable. And the school are very good at recognising that these are behaviours, but that's not who he is as a person. And that they recognise that these behaviours are a culmination of his dysregulation so he is really positive about the school you know he he has those particular teachers that he really likes he has those teachers that he doesn't like that kid right you know and that's humans we do like some people we don't like other people um but you know he himself recognizes how well supported he is to the point that the other day he actually said to me you know well of course I'm not going to do that because I'm going to get kicked out and I really like the school and I was like wow that's a win you know yeah and he'll feed back to me that he'll

recognize that his behaviors have not been the best and he'll feel guilty. He's written notes in. I mean, this is not my kid. And I know that that is, you know, really down to having a an inclusive environment. And I've always said this and I fundamentally believe this. If you teach on the whole to kids with additional needs, if you make that your baseline baseline children with no disability will benefit you know it's an interesting point actually Lou that that came up that if that is your baseline is support those children with additional needs those children that don't have additional needs cannot fail to benefit and we need to have a more social and emotional learning curriculum particularly after COVID, where children have really struggled.

Let me leave it there, Lou. I'm so happy for you that you have found that and kicking us off on positive experiences and all the best to you and your son. What we're doing, if you just tuned into Woman's Hour, we're hearing your positive experiences, your best practices when it comes to SEND. Lots of you getting in touch in lots of ways. Here's somebody who got in touch on ADHD, autism. Our son is ADHD and he's on the

autism spectrum. Things that worked, early intervention, speech therapy, sensory integration therapy, conversational skills, inclusive mainstream settings so that they can learn from their peers. One-to-one support in primary school. Fantastic. Aspiration focused on what they can do and targeting what is a challenge. Let me bring in Helen. Hello, Helen. Good to have you with us. Tell us a little bit about what you feel has worked. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me on. So, yeah, my son, Woody, is six years old.

We're based in Scotland. He is in a mainstream primary school and he's had a very complex start to life with health conditions that have affected his general global development. He has limited verbal skills, some delay with gross and fine motor skills he has epilepsy and he's also in the process of being assessed for autism and adhd um he is in his uh second year what we call p2 of um primary school and we've been well he has been very lucky because because since day one of P1, he was allocated a one-to-one support worker who has been with him from that day one all the way through to where he is now. And I know that that's a little bit the exception rather than the rule, but the difference that that has made for him, that he has a person who,

he's got that predictability that trust in somebody someone who can um understand when he doesn't have all the verbal skills that his peers have and someone who can can really understand where he's at and what he needs and that's been incredible for him do you know so that's continuity you're talking about there and I feel with Lou previously it was like communication was a really big issue. Do you know how long that might last? I mean do you get any guarantees? No and even at the end of his first year they you know they said oh it's you know it's likely he'll have the same support worker going into second year and we were like oh I hope so but there was there was no guarantee and I'm assuming that comes down to you know resource and other children coming into the school and how they can allocate that resource um so you know part of this has been a little bit like like Lou was saying

that the school have implemented some really good practice with learning about my son's um needs and meeting him where he's at and therefore enhancing his ability to learn, like, you know, from the structure of what he's learning in the classroom, but also, again, like Lou said, from his peers, being, you know, challenged to do activities and get involved in ways that he may otherwise not have done. But by having that one person who's with him, if he needs to step away, if he's getting a little bit emotionally dysregulated or he's lost focus, he can step away and he's not on his own. Someone's with him, which actually I feel completely enhances

his learning. It sounds a bit counterintuitive, but if you try and get my son to sit through a structured school day, the same as his peers, he will learn nothing. He needs the ability to dip in and out. And that's what that one to one provides for him. It's really interesting. I think also it's probably for another day or a further conversation. But kind of what Lewis brought up and what you have brought up, that aspect of how it affects other children in the class as well, or kind of how the educational system should be structured. Really good to hear from you, Helen. Thank you so much. Lots of you getting in touch. If you want to call the number 03700 100 444 84844 if you want to text, like this person did. I'm a parent to a deaf child who has struggled in mainstream school. I set up a charity with another mother

and have been conducting research on live captions in classrooms and implementing captions in around 20 schools. The results have shown that live captions benefit many children, deaf, many Sen and children with English as an additional language, plus mainstream children when in noisy environments.

And of course, with some of these messages that are coming in, we realise just how broad send and send can mean when it comes to each individual child. Shall we go to Vicky next? Vicky, you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Tell me a little bit about what you've seen and witnessed when it comes to best practice? Yeah, morning. So, yeah, my name's Vicky. I'm a children's occupational therapist and I've worked in schools with children with additional needs for over 20 years now.

And one of the things that I find is that, you know, I've worked one-to-one with children for many, many years and over the last few years, I've changed my practice to supporting this whole school approach and so we're really empowering teachers and teaching staff to support all of the pupils in their classroom and it just really rings true like listening to some of the parents that you've been speaking to there this morning where they're they're using the word lucky you know we're lucky to have this we're lucky to have the one-to-one we're lucky to have

had these strategies and that is just so frustrating and disheartening for so many families teaching staff and professionals like myself to hear that and that's something that myself and my colleague Joanne Jones who's a speech and language therapist feel really passionate about you know this shouldn't be that you are lucky that your child gets this. This should be something that is offered to all teaching staff, training, support, empowering them to be able to support the needs of all of the children in the classroom.

It shouldn't be a postcode lottery whether you get this support or not. And I'm sure people will be hearing what you're saying and thinking that would be great but do you think it is feasible that something like you speak about could be rolled out at a more extensive way? Absolutely I think one of the fundamental things that both Jo and I believe and my partner who we work together, we really honestly believe that if the adults, if we get it right for the children, then they will thrive. You know, it has to fall to us as adults within the school environment so much. Pressure is put on our SEN children, all children, but particularly our SEN children, to catch up or we're focusing on the things that they can't do.

We really need to be looking at what can they do and how can we as adults be supporting them, empowering them, being truly child-led. You know, we hear these buzzwords of being child-led in the SEN services,

but is it truly child-led? And it's something that when we get that right as adults, we just see that ripple effect across all different areas of child development, particularly around learning. And I suppose the issue with that,

you talk about fundamentals, some other people might talk about funding when it comes to some of these aspects. But of course, a lot are legally entitled to services that they feel they haven't gotten. We've spoken about that at length on previous programmes, but today we are hearing positive stories.

We are hearing people, they say they're lucky, but that their lives they feel are moving in the right direction with their child who has sinned. Thanks so much for your call, Vicky. If you want to get in touch, again, the number is 03700 100 444. As I look around me on my various screens,

I can see there's a lot of you that do want to get in touch. Here's a message. Let me see. Secondary school. My son was born with spina bifida and hydrocephalus and has never walked. We live in Wales. When he started high school, all the disabled children in wheelchairs

were made to spend lunch times together and sit at the lunch table. Separating disabled children from their peers at local schools is not good practice. It was quite a demoralising experience for my son. Just because a child is disabled does not mean they want to be forced into learning alongside other disabled children when they have no learning disabilities. I think it's important parents and children have the same choices as their able-bodied peers. So I suppose you want to flip that and talk about the way you think it could have worked better for your son. Let me continue to move on and let me bring in Lorna next. Lorna, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Tell me a little bit about a positive experience that you have had for your child. Hello. So my name is Lorna Trapp and I've been a SENCO in the Belcature area for over 20 years. So I'll stop you for one second. That is a special educational needs coordinator. I know there's so much of the lingo, so I want to always kind of

go back on those acronyms. That's very important, yes. Which is like, it's like a language among people who have gone through it, right? So back to you, you're a teacher for children that have special needs. Yes, and working in mainstream schools and supporting and training across Bedfordshire as well.

And while I was doing this job, I noticed there was a gap, a huge gap. So we were having the children, which I know at the moment a lot has been called the in-betweenies. So children who are not able to access mainstream school, but who are not for special needs school. And there was this huge gap where we were going through lists saying, OK, we've tried this and tried that and tried this. What's available? And the answer was nothing. And if there's nothing available, then we're not getting it right. And I was listening to Kelly Bright and Katie on your program about mums bridging the gap. And they were it was just a total frustration about being trapped by a lack of options. So looking at all this said, right, we haven't got anything like this in our area.

Let's build one. And that's what we've done. So we've built an alternative provision. It's called the den provision. And what we've done is we built a classroom and a playground garden area and and it's available for children with EHCPs educational health care plans who have autism as a primary need and what we're doing is exactly what Helen said and Lou said and Vicky has said we are intentionally planning for the success of the pupils. So we are finding a way. So what does that mean? Because I think a lot of people that I have spoken to may have an autistic child and they're bumping up against SEND provision. What is it that you're providing that you feel is working?

So what we have is a personalised, child-led, one-on-one environment. So we're looking at a bespoke learning for the child, child-centred, all these buzzwords that are coming out and where we focus on what that child needs to do, what that child needs to learn because we're looking at developing children's skills but more importantly their confidence in order that they can succeed not just in lower school or middle school or secondary school but in life and in further education. So let me come to specifics I mean how many people are we talking about for kids you know what you talk about one-on-one? Yeah so at the moment we have one and we were we opened only a week so we're very congratulations very very well so far and it was you know primarily based on one little boy who um was very much at the forefront of my mind and I thought you know what can we do for this child and then what we've done is we have this classroom where we have a child who needs to access education they've tried different ways

nothing's worked so let's then make that so that child can access it. Personalised, what does it look like? If you love elephants, when you come through our door, you're going to see elephants. If you love ducks, when you come through, you're going to see ducks. So it's about making that child, first of all, the most important thing, relationships and making sure a child wants to be there and wants a person in their space so if a child comes in and they want to be there automatically they're going to start being able to trust that person and learn and it sounds wonderful but with this obviously as we talked about certain children uh particularly when they have an ehcp yes sorry another acronym

but it is an education uh health and care plan. And when you have that, then you are legally to be given, to be provided an education and certain services are to be met. With this, will the state fund what you are trying to do? So if the child is on a school role, then the school fund it. And if the child is not on school role, then the local authority special needs team will then be responsible. So it would go to a panel and it would be decided, you know, we've tried lots of different options and then give us as an option.

And do you feel if somebody was listening who was a SENCO, for example, and they feel in their part of the country that they would like to replicate something like what you're talking about do you think it's easy doable I think it's definitely difficult I mean we've had months of getting everything ready and prepared but as you'll probably know from doing all the center focus and I'm certain the parents will know the systems are difficult to navigate the paperwork is long and the applications are long everything needs the paperwork is long and the applications are

long everything needs to have a meeting and an interim review and a panel so um we are now after half term in the first week of half term we're going to be full and we've been open a week so it goes what is full we our places are all taken no i mean how many places are you talking sorry so we have 20 hours per week. Yeah, I understand. That's divided. Some children have five hours, some children have one. Yes. So we're looking to be full. So already, where else can we go? You know, let's go to Luton. Let's build one there.

Interesting. Thank you so much. Best of luck in your first week. It's great to have you on Women's Hour. Thank you so much. And all the best for the future with it. So that's somebody kind of taking matters into their own hands. Shall we speak to Sophia? Welcome. And am I pronouncing your name correctly, Sophia?

Indeed. Good morning. Good morning. What have you seen? Not well, I. My daughter, notwithstanding her typical autistic presentation, she had GCSEs from primary school in maths. She's taken her maths A-levels early. And we have found that the best practice has been from the United States. She currently cannot access state school in the UK until she's 16. She has been out of education for three years, having

been discriminated against by her independent school in Kingston. And but can I ask you... The Americans were brilliant. What did they do? Tell me exactly what the practice was that you saw that you felt was positive. It's like a wonderland out there. First of all, they do preferred accommodation

for these children as they're coming in. And what does that mean? They try them out early. So they have a choice of where they're blocked and who they are coming in. And what does that mean? They fly them out early. So they have a choice of where they're blocked and who they are blocked with. And they also have a type of accommodation, so it's secured.

They have almost a one-to-one caring regime around them. They place them with a family within the town, within the Ivy League town where she's going i mean at one point they said they're going to fly her pet out for her if that's required and the the system in contrast between ucas and the american system is just it's just a complete differently approach to the child themselves. And they start early. Sophia, can I talk about the, it was really interesting to hear the differences that you talk about that your daughter gets offered.

But on the positive side of the United States, we know even with regular college fees, you know, you're talking sometimes seven, eight times the amount that it would be in the UK, for example. And that funding issue, it would be difficult to replicate, I imagine. Well, that's the issue. Because she has autism, because the Americans seem to recognise, and this is what I've told, the economic matrix of autism is seen as a specialism. Those children have great concentration. They have attention to detail. They have the ability to have asymmetric thinking. And yes, she's been offered what is known as a full ride.

Like a scholarship to the university that's wonderful yeah that's correct indeed do you think she'll take it up? we've taken it with both hands because when we look at the cases in the UK when you've got atypical teenagers

going through the system through UCAS and that first year into university and they're lost, they that first year into university, and they're lost. They're expected to behave like adults, but they're not. They've had this supportive network from their families, from their schools, up until this point,

and at university, when we've gone, they're not looking back. So you feel there's a disconnect there, Sophia. Thank you so much for your call. Best of luck as well to your daughter as she heads to the United States interesting perhaps somebody's had a positive experience when it

comes to secondary school and perhaps moving into third level as well if you'd like to get in touch on text it's 84844 and if you'd like to call us get your voice in women's hour 03700 100444 like Kate who is next?

Hello, Kate. Hello. Hi, good to have you with us. Tell me a little bit about your experiences that have been positive. Yes, well, I used to be a teacher. I was a teacher for 16 years in mainstream schools. I now home educate my autistic son

and I work as a neurodivergent family coach. So I support hundreds of families going through all the things that parents are sharing. And so I guess my experience comes from positivity in the classroom when I was doing it, but also the stories I hear from parents now. And there's obviously so much I could say and there's so much everyone could share.

But I think what's really important is to, as much as we're all hoping massive change comes from this government, which was sort of half being promised, but we don't know when that will happen. And that's not good enough for the children who are in school right now struggling. So what we need is really practical strategies to support teachers specifically. And what are they?

One of the biggest things that could make life easier for so many children is to have brain and movement breaks in the classroom on a regular basis. And this is something I was doing when I was in school. And we're talking, you know, 10 years ago, I was doing this, obviously not me on my own. And our school was taking good practice from New Zealand who'd been doing it for longer than that. And we seemed like we were miles behind. And we took on board a program called Brain Gym,

which is available as a whole school policy. And what that does is it means, and one of your other callers mentioned it earlier, when you're meeting the needs of, it might be five children in your class who specifically need additional movement and breaks from concentrating and learning so that they can, I guess, restore their mental clarity and be able to refocus. What we need is the whole class benefiting from that because even neurotypical children are sat at their tables for too long and working for too long. So we need regular brain and movement breaks. And it's really, it's something practical that teachers can do. I'm not asking teachers to do things that I wasn't doing. And,

you know, it's not an expensive initiative. These are things that can be done. And like parents are talking about this word lucky. It's the same thing happening to parents I speak to now. And some teachers have heard of movement breaks and brain breaks. But the great majority don't know what parents are talking about when they have requested that and it's not being done regularly and i really just want parents i sorry i really want teachers to know that you know we're here to support you i'm not bashing teachers at all it's about the system that's struggling um but teachers can do these really practical things. And during, for example, an hour's English lesson, there can be little brain and movement breaks on the carpet. And maybe if they're sitting down, it's more of a brain break.

And then as they're moving to their tables, you can have a movement break. When they're sitting at their tables, get them up, do as Simon says, halfway through the lesson. And that is not practiced as widely as you would like it, Kate? It's not being practiced widely, no. And there's not whole school policies on it. And what we need is just this is happening in every school, not parents kind of unsure whether it's happening. This is happening. It's a clear whole school policy.

It's easy to implement. These things can be done. A brain break should be taking 30 seconds, maybe a minute. Same with movement breaks. And it just becomes part of your whole ethos in the classroom. I understand. Hold that thought, Kate. And of course, I don't have the exact figures on who is using it or who is not.

But I see that Lorna is still with us. You were agreeing with some of what you were hearing, Lorna, who has just set up her school for for children that have autism in particular. Go ahead. Yes. I mean, having I've worked in schools up until August of this year and, you know, a brain gym and it's called lots of different things. But the first one was brain gym is very well used across. I mean, again, I don't know data on how many people use it, but a good special needs coordinator and a school that has a good send policy and a good inclusion policy will be using things like brain breaks. But you're absolutely right. It's about flexibility and it's about knowing what the children need and recognizing what they need, because once we know what they need, then it's possible. You know, the special needs code of practice tells us that teachers must find a way. The Equality Act tells us that we need to make reasonable adjustments.

So all these things, they're known in school. You know, teachers are doing it and they're trying and there is a lack of funding and a lack of training and a lack of time and a lack of staff. And when the resources aren't there, you know, that is when it becomes a problem. But little things like like a brain break. Perfect. Brilliant. But I have found in and out of lots of schools that that is quite well utilised. Yes. Interesting. Thank you very much for your call, Kate, and also to Lorna. We were speaking actually about the brain gym a little earlier in 2018. Ofsted warned schools not to rely on those programmes, just to mention that briefly, referring back.

A teacher, another teacher, just getting in touch on text 84844. I ran an alternative provision for SEND for 16 to 25 year olds. I feel its success lay in the students knowing it was a safe place to attend. During the first home visit, I gave them assurances that bullying was dealt with in the moment. it was a safe place to attend. During the first home visit, I gave them assurances

that bullying was dealt with in the moment. It was during this first meeting where it was essential to make a connection and build trust. Max 12 students would attend. A lot of students were non-attenders, non-verbal, seen as having behavioural issues. It was the best two years of my working life to see these students grow and progress into mainstream college

and also work. Interesting, coming back to some of the communication that we began with. Another one, autism secondary school, a huge focus on talking and teaching the children to recognise their emotions and feelings led to a dramatic reduction in autistic meltdowns and increase in self-esteem. Daily reflection to end a day and even on the worst days days telling the boys that tomorrow is a new day and we start afresh. No shaming the kids, recognising that behaviour is communication and a genuine wish for the boys to succeed. My son then re-engaged with learning and has

progressed to a mainstream secondary with SEMH, a social emotional and mental health team and so far is flying as he no longer feels ashamed to be different. If you are just tuning in, you are listening to Woman's Hour and what we are discussing today, as you might have picked up from some of those messages, are positive experiences that you have seen, experienced with your child with SEND, so special needs and disabilities, special educational needs and disabilities. We've spoken before about what's broken. So many of you responded and been in touch and again this morning. But instead, with best practice, the things you've seen that you feel are great concepts that could be big or

small, perhaps something even that you have experienced with your child that you feel should be rolled out across the country. So whatever it is, 03700 100 444 84844. If it's text, thank you so much to all of you getting in touch so far. I want to turn to Isabel next. Hello, Isabel. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. You have two children, I believe. Yeah, I do.

I have two children and they started their school life in different schools, slightly different needs, different circumstances. In one school particularly, my daughter attended the school-employed therapists and those therapists were in... My daughter saw them every week. She had a session with them every week, but they also were able to be in touch with the staff. And so the staff understood what work was being done to support my daughter.

She also had a teaching supporter in her classroom, and that person particularly was the link between the therapists. My son had occasional therapy coming into the school from outside. His mainstream school had far less support. And although they both had, at the time, they were called statement EHCPs of today, his school was abounding with kindness. There was no shortage of kindness. And indeed, they invited me to go in and talk to other parents before he started.

So that helped the children in his class to understand a little bit about what was going on. And I could give examples of what he might do and what that might mean. In essence the best support came by having therapeutic support involved in the school at all times. For far too many people they'll get a six-week session of say speech and language therapy which then suddenly stops and they don't get anything and then there'll be a school holiday so it might be good a good two months before they get any more. With children with intellectual disabilities, that support just drops away. The effect of that just drops away. And if the staff are unable to roll it out because they're not therapists and they need frequent support, it makes the effect of that speech therapy or

occupational therapy or physiotherapy diminished. Yes, it's so interesting, your perspective, Isabel, because having two children going through the system, but in a different way. And of course, every child is an individual and has different needs. But you were seeing it on a very comparative basis on what was working. And even kindness was not enough. No, I've never criticised the school my son went to because the kindness was abounding. The children were encouraged to be kind. But he did become the class pet in a way.

I felt in a way, and as one of your earlier callers said through therapeutic interventions other children benefit too there are many of children who don't get to the threshold of an ehcp but who could do with some support and when a staff member an ordinary staff member knows how to assist with the language therapy for example and one has to distinguish between language therapy which is understanding the words one has to distinguish between language therapy, which is understanding the words and the syntax, from speech, which is how you articulate something. But there may be children who are having language difficulties

and a teacher would understand that so much better if they had integral therapeutic support. Yes, I hear what you're saying. It's basically, you've seen a disconnect at times between the therapist and the actual school and you're saying that they have to be knitted together. Thanks very much for your call and for getting in touch. Here's a grandmother who writes,

My grandson is extremely disabled physically. He uses an eye gaze computer to talk and is fed through a tube directly into his stomach. But he functions at age level and above emotionally and intellectually and attends mainstream school. We've been so lucky. There's that word again.

We've been so lucky to find a school that sees him as a child like any other. Apart from his additional needs, he has a totally positive problem solving approach to him, enabling him to have a normal part of school life. He can participate in lessons with his computer because his teacher gives him time and gives him questions in advance so he has time to type the answers using his eyes. He does a wheelchair version of PE and playtime. The school's attitude has helped the other

children and their families accept him as a normal part of his and their lives and he has strong friendships, does playdates and birthday parties. My grandson feels loved, listened to and normal and that affects every aspect of our lives as a family and the way he feels about himself and his life and his future. So just as we talk about, of course, the diversity when we talk about SEND, that is one more story coming in. Thank you very much for that. 84844.

If you'd like to text us, 03700100444 on Women's Hour as we speak about positive experiences um we're tackling in a number of episodes of women's hour the thorny issues that can arise arise uh from send and the system but today we're talking about provision that you've seen that has worked get in touch let me turn to mandy hello mandy uh tell me your story oh hello there um i'm interested in special educational needs from two perspectives so i am a mother of an autistic child but i'm also a practitioner i'm a send lawyer and i guess i'm speaking more here about my experience as a professional and i have helped lots and lots of families

and seen their children thrive in mainstream and I think the key to mainstream working is having and I'm talking about children here who have EHCPs for education healthcare plans is having an EHCP that is fit for purpose. Very often parents have to fight to get an EHCP but when they get it it doesn't always and in my experience most of the time doesn't actually properly identify what the needs of those that child is and what provision is in place. And many parents simply think that if their child has got a one-to-one, then they'll be okay and that's all they need in mainstream. And that's not enough. What have you seen? What do you think works, Mandy? So having an EHCP that, first of all, identifies properly all of the child's special educational needs is key

because if you get that right then you get the provision right which is in section s of the EHCP and the kind of things that you can have are just a wide and varied depending on the child's needs but that could be identifying for example that a child needs speech and language therapy and and that needs to identify who's to deliver it how often so the frequency but is that what you're seeing because a lot of people i heard when they they might have an ehcp but in fact what they are delivered or vision they get uh didn't match up what have you seen that has been positive and that has worked? When you have that properly identified and you have, for example, a one-to-one who has got, you know,

you don't want to have just any person supporting your child. They need to have the relevant training. But if this is all identified properly in an EHCP, then I have seen children's experiences absolutely transform. And we need to remember that the default position in law is mainstream. And so I think key to all of this is understanding the legal framework. Many people don't understand it. There are lots of myths.

You've got the Children and Families Act, which deals with special education needs. So what happens at the desk? But you've also got the Equality Act and the Reasonable Adjustments Duty. So it can seem very complicated. It is, yeah. And I think I've definitely come across that.

The admin that has to be done and just the form filling, etc. can be exhaustive but you're saying persevere and if you can get there good things can happen mandy thank you so much for your call let me move on to mark hello mark oh hi there can you can you hear me loud and clear and tell me a little bit about your experiences uh first of all i'm an educational leader working for um a secondary school in bishop stortford um i'm also a parent of a son who has adhd and autism so i'm well versed in this world of um i've been listening to the program and i've had lots concerning like inclusive tea and i just

want to you know to kind of feed into the conversation around that as to what inclusivity looks like for me as a practitioner and as a parent. And something that we practice at Avanti Grange is, this is a state school, by the way, is something called restorative practice, which is a combination of both high challenge and high support for all students. And by high challenge, you you know we're not talking you know challenging students we're talking about having the challenge that's set within the curriculum you know having an aspirational curriculum that is well designed well versed you know through my colleague Elizabeth Carr I don't mind shouting her out she's absolutely brilliant but you know having a really challenging curriculum that stimulates and inspires curiosity,

you know, that's the first hurdle, I think, that educationalists and practitioners need to get over. You know, if we give something stimulating to students with ADHD or with autism or dyslexia, whatever it may be, that's the first step. But then coupled with that, because it can't just be the curriculum and the challenge for the curriculum on its own,

it has to come with a combination of high support. And that's where you've got to know the child before you know the student. And I'll stress this to any practitioner that comes and trains with me as an educator. You know, you need to know, you need to build those relationships with students from the offset. You know, even to extend it to parents, know the person um you know know that even to to extend it to parents know the person before you know the parent because once you you you do that you've got a way in to support that young person and and potential families in the future and one thing that i haven't heard discussed on the show either is the emergence of artificial intelligence and the role that that

can play in supporting young people i for example this this half term have taken on teaching a child who is severely dyslexic um where i've had a conversation with parents concerning you know the the reality you know that in the future this is going to have a serious impact on exam results blah blah pushing all of that to one side i got parent permission to you know um to create my own gpt as it were using chat gpt which was a dyslexia translator which would allow my student to put his type to work which was you know you could not read it it was possibly the worst case of dyslexia i've ever come across but he would put what he had originally drafted into the machine and it would then regurgitate what he'd written, like looking at the patterns of the words and basically translate it into formal English. and I was like, I just want to see his reaction. I'd never seen this young man smile so much. And he looked around, he looked me in the eye

and he was beckoning me over at this magic that had unfolded in front of him. And I feel that educators have a responsibility not to teach children how to cheat or use AI for nefarious uses, but to teach them how to use it responsibly because that young man, this device, this tool

is going to help him into his adult life. So interesting. And it is a really important point to bring up and something we haven't discussed as much, AI. Mark, thanks very much for your call. I also just got a message from George. He's a student. And he says with ADHD,

he says, I'm at secondary school, I'm dyslexic and I have ADHD. Up until the age of 11, I could not write properly. I was given a laptop by the school. And from that point onwards, I never got behind on work. I handed in homework on time. I was no longer distracted and frustrated

by the pain in my hand or my wrist. The laptop helped me enormously. And I recommend to any other person struggling with writing to ask for access from your school to one. You know, a small fix, but thank you very much for your message. We have another. This is on autism, ADHD. Talks about Scotland.

My son is autistic and has ADHD. He's 11, and he's starting the transition from primary to secondary school. His experience at primary school has been, without doubt, life-changing in a positive way. The head teacher has brought in training for staff on autism. They've adapted the school to be flexible and lead with understanding and compassion.

And as a result, my son's confidence is high. His mental health is good and he enjoys school. I'm anxious about secondary school, but the primary teacher is supporting us with the transition and working with the secondary school him being in a mainstream setting has worked well for him but i know that this is down to a pretty amazing head teacher um yeah so there's a lot of individuals as well i feel that are that are making difference that we're hearing that this morning as well um i'm a taxi driver specific to taking send children to and from their school. I have

an assistant and together we create a safe environment for the children. We get trust from guardians and teachers as we work with them to nurture the children. We see fragmented friendships heal. So that's even a little bit outside of the actual setting. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch on text, if you'd like to call us because this is a phone in talking about your positive experiences your best practices the ideas the concepts that you feel are working and that you feel other people need to know about them because there's definitely a community of women's hour listeners that have been in touch with us and very passionate about this issue what could be scaled up or rolled out zero

three zero forgive me let me begin again zero three seven hundred one hundred four four four zero three seven hundred one hundred four four four um and as those calls uh continue to come in i want to turn to sarah next hello sarah hello can you hear me i can tell me about you and your family oh hi well i'm a um mama of the 16 year old girl who's um had an ehcp plan from the days of statements so from when she was four years old and she was in a mainstream school all through her primary and then has been in a SEN all-girls state school from when she's 11 until now when she's 16. And it's been so great listening to your programme. I think one of the things that I was really reflecting on listening was

we were, the word lucky lucky we were lucky to find out that there is such a thing as a all-girls state school for children with SEN because actually for some girls it won't be for all children with SEN but for some girls it is great to be able to be educated in that single-sex environment when they're kind of going through puberty and it's really tricky. And I sort of reflect on listening to you of how many great bespoke offers there are out there that we all don't really hear about unless we're just lucky.

So there's something about in this new world with a new government we could do about joining up some of these offers and making it a bit easier for people to understand what's out there because there's been so many brilliant things today

haven't there? Yes and I think that's what we're trying to do to kind of I suppose connect those people which there was such an outpouring after some of the items that we've done on this.

And we had it in the radio theatre as well here at the BBC. And just even afterwards, I was struck by just the stories that I was told by mums that were there about the system. And a lot of that was about what was broken. But today it's the positivity, it's the things that are there that can work in whatever part. Let me turn to Lucy instead. Lucy, tell me a little bit about what you've seen. Hi, so I am a mainstream SENCO. So I'll stop for a second. SENCO, so you are a Special Educational Needs Coordinator.

So that teacher. Yeah, definitely. So I have quite a lot of children who are coming through the system with quite complex needs that when i was training about 10 years ago we didn't have very much training on it we had a day or two here or there at university so um i started to go and research and have a look what was out there regarding cpd for my staff um not a huge amount within the local authority i think a lot of mainstream primary have struggled with that

and getting that training that is required on those EHCPs as well. So I started to kind of put myself out there a little bit and have become chair of governors for two special schools. This has meant that I've got those connections of specialists that do it every single day with really, really complex needs, going all the way from medical needs to physical needs as well as social, emotional and learning disabilities as well. It's just meant that I've been able to reach out to those colleagues

and other professionals that specialise in this and they've been able to provide CPD, which has been monumental and I've then been able to use that to develop our cluster of SENCOs as well and start to build our curriculum in a way that I wasn't previously able to without that kind of higher knowledge and information of practitioners that do it every single day in quite a different way. But actually, what they've provided and the kindness of being able to reach out to them as well has been just astronomical.

And I think that if there are mainstream teachers that can get those links, can put themselves onto local governing bodies, it just means that there's a lot of support out there. I think that those schools have got their own pressures and things like that. It's interesting. What I think I'm hearing is people taking it into their own hands

at times and building something themselves. I want to thank you for your call. I do see that we are, would you believe, coming to the end of the hour. I did say it would go in quickly. I want to try and squeeze Helen in. Hi Helen. Tell us little about uh the good practice that you have seen good morning well yes i've heard some amazing things this morning and i'm i am really heartened i'm a secondary school teacher comes teaching later in life um and i did say to a producer i

was late to say it found a negative note but basically to get these things into perspective it is not unusual now to have a class of 32 children in secondary schools and within that class you might have five six or maybe more children with additional with additional needs now most of those will not have any HCP because they are really, really hard to come by. And so we want to and we try as teachers to put all these fantastic ideas into practice. I find I'm a languages teacher that playing sort of language games really introduces those children, especially those children who may find it hard to concentrate for long periods of time. So that sort of thing works. But at the end of the day, we have to be honest and say that if we want

to implement more of these fantastic ideas we need resources and we need teachers that are not on their knees and that are not leaving the profession so i'm afraid i'm going to sound simplistic here but it comes down to taxes doesn't it and or finding the funding for to implement these fantastic ideas because at the moment with the best will in the world, with a class of 32 children and so many with additional needs, it's very, very hard to see how we do that effectively. Thank you, Helen. Maybe I can get to Claire. Can you squeeze it in in 30 seconds, what you'd like to say, best practice?

Yes, Claire, I used to be a primary school teacher, now a children and young persons therapist one of the best things i have ever done in my whole entire life um was something called trauma-informed schools um training lots and lots of schools down here in cornwall have done it it's amazing what is it what is it mentioned uh basically that every behavior is communication that in order for any learning or any life to take place, people, every single person needs to feel safe, loved and heard. Important. And so relationship is really, really a strong point in that training. It's like a whole school ethos, but also I take it into my practice now with my clients. And it just basically shows, you know,

if a child or an adult is deregulated, there is no way that they can start to learn because their frontal cortex will be disengaged. So it's learning about fight and flight and having exercises to help you with that. And it's brilliant. It really changes lives. Maybe going full circle there, Clare.

Thank you, our last caller. Thanks to all of you who got in touch. We had Lou at the beginning as well talking about how communication was so vital. Thanks for all your calls. We will, of course, continue to follow the subject of SEND. This is a continuing conversation on Woman's Hour. I want to let you know that tomorrow,

the two-time Oscar-nominated actor Emily Watson will be live in studio to discuss her new role in the upcoming film Small Things Like These based on that best-selling book by Clare Keegan. Thank you so much for listening

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