Woman's Hour - SEND, Race Across the World, Toxic masculinity

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

The Government has announced a £3 billion investment to create around 50,000 new specialised places for children with Special Educational Needs and Disabilities. The aim is to speed up support for families and improve provision in both mainstream schools and bespoke facilities. To discuss what that means in practice, Anita Rani is joined by the BBC's Education Correspondent Vanessa Clarke and Sharon Smith, co-director of Special Needs Jungle, a parent-led UK website and resource hub providing news, information, and advocacy for families with children with special educational needs.One of the unexpected stars of this year's Celebrity Race Across The World has been Anita's Dad, Bal, with many people commenting on their touching father/ daughter relationship. Since reaching the finish line, he's now discovered his wanderlust and Anita catches up with him on a Christmas cruise to look back at their time travelling together. The Government’s long-delayed strategy to tackle violence against women and girls is set to be unveiled next week. According to the Movember Foundation, two-thirds of young men regularly engage with masculinity influencers online. A new campaign, Same Side, launched today by UN Women UK, is aiming to counter that with the help of some leading sports stars. One is the former Manchester City and QPR defender Nedum Onuoha. He joins Anita along with Tabitha Morton, Executive Director of UN Women UK.Have you already overindulged at a few parties? Could you imagine getting though the festive season without booze? Well Laura Antonia Jordan hasn't had a drink, or even a mildly tipsy Christmas, for 10 years now. A journalist, she's written about navigating the festive season completely sober after years of living by, as she calls it 'the doctrine of hedonism'. She tells Anita why the cultural pressure can be tough, but dry December does not have to be boring.Boudoir photography, stripping down into lingerie and posing for a photographer may sound like something from the world of supermodels and glossy magazines, but there are lots of women from all walks of life who are choosing to pay for professional intimate photos, as gifts for partners, or just to feel good about themselves. Joining Anita to discuss this increasingly popular world are boudoir photographer Laura Slater and Joley Gordon, who booked herself a session two years ago and has never looked back. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. As you've just heard in the bulletin, there's a major update announced by the Department of Education regarding Send, the special educational needs and disability system for children and young people in England. It's a topic. We've followed very closely on the programme and we'll be discussing what this latest announcement means. It's party season and the booze will be flowing should you want it. What's your relationship with alcohol?

And do you feel the pressure to drink? How do you navigate the festive season sober? Keep listening. Can't think of what to gift your partner for Christmas. How about a softly lit photo of yourself in lingerie? I don't know why I had to say it in that accent. But anyway, there you go. Boudoir photography is on the rise

and women are doing it for many reasons, not just for partners. And how do you combat the rise of online misogyny targeted? at young men. Feeding their algorithm with messages of dominance over women. We'll be discussing that. And fathers and daughters. Now, some of you may have been watching me and my dad racing across the world. And if you haven't, I spent five weeks traveling with my dad earlier in the year for the BBC One program. It's brought us so much closer. And it has been lovely reading your messages every week about how watching has made you reflect on your own relationships with your fathers. I'm going to read this message that's been sent to me by

Tony on my Instagram she said I loved watching your adventures on race across the world I recently lost my dad at age 67 so I watched with happiness and at times watery eyes I loved seeing you both grasp this opportunity make the most of it and I could see you were both not taking a single second for granted you were absolutely right and thank you for that message Tony I find them all very moving so this morning let's hear about your dads we want to hear your stories about that father and daughter bond get in touch in the normal way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website or WhatsApp, or if you fancy leaving me a voice note, it's 0300-100-444. And social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour.

Like text number once again, 84844. But first, the government has announced three billion pounds to create around 50,000 specialist send places. These places will be in mainstream education, Nearly 1.7 million pupils receive support for special educational needs in schools in England with the number rising every year. The government says it means young people won't have to travel miles from home to have their needs met and can instead get support in tailor-made spaces with the right facilities and mix with other classes for subjects or parts of the day that are appropriate for them. As you know, this is a topic we discuss regularly on Woman's Hour and now also in our new podcast, Send in the Summer.

spotlight that launched this week. You can find that on BBC Sounds. But to talk us through this today, I'm joined by BBC's education correspondent, Vanessa. Good morning, Vanessa. Good morning. Can you give us a bit more information on the announcement today? Yeah, so this money is all about capital spending.

So that's all about building additional rooms, you know, sensory rooms or breakout rooms where children with special needs, you know, might get overwhelmed in the classroom and might need a bit more. space. And then some schools might decide they want to have a dedicated hub where students with send will spend part of their time and then they can spend the rest of the time in mainstream classes. And, you know, this is very much a push of the government to try and educate more children with send in mainstream schools. So councils today are very pleased with the plans. You know, they're spending hundreds of millions of pounds, even on transporting students would send to schools that might be further away. So they want to have

the ability to invest in spaces closer to where those children live and really have the autonomy to decide where those spaces are. But as everyone has told me today about this story so far, the devil is in the detail, you know, how much money each council is going to get and if the extra places will be put where they're most needed. Do we know any of that detail yet? We don't. It's, what we do know is that to fund this, the government have partly used money they put aside in the budget, but also £600 million from cancelling mainstream free schools that were planned. So about 28 schools that were going to be built around the country have now been effectively shelved following a consultation that they'll do in the next

few weeks. And some trust leaders are really disappointed at this decision. But I think one of the main worries is that 77 special free schools were planned and now councils have the power to decide whether they should go ahead and be built or whether that funding will be better used more effectively elsewhere because we know a lot of special schools are over capacity so some parents are worried about these special schools not being built but councils are clear that

you know what the last thing they want is a special school where they're having to transport students for miles and miles to which is costing lots of money 84844 by the way if you're hearing this news for the first time this morning and this is going to affect you or your children then we'd love to hear your thoughts So give us some context about this particular £3 billion investment. How does it compare to previous funding levels?

So I think we all know the SEN system is costing billions of pounds. And the problem is even though all this money has been invested in it, outcomes for children are not improving. So unions are saying, yes, it's a good start. But actually this is just about buildings, whether what we really need is investment in expertise and the staff and speech and language programs and things like that

to really help the system. And I think everyone agrees the send system is broken. I know you've done loads on this in the podcast and on your program. But the number of children is increasing every year. You know, 1.7 million children need additional help in schools now

and most councils are in deficits. So the government in early 2026 are going to announce a series of reforms to change the system. We don't know what all of those changes will be. but we do know that part of it is this push which we're beginning to see today to have more children

with send educated in mainstream schools. So let's talk about the people who are the most important, the families at the heart of this. What impact could it have on them currently struggling to find appropriate provision for their children who have complex needs? Yeah, every family has their own story

and I think their own struggle, particularly if they're trying to get access to education, health and care plans, which are these legal documents, provided by a council which set out exactly what a pupil needs in a school. So you have families fighting for maybe access to special schools, but actually some of them want to be in mainstream schools. You know, they want their kids to be with their friends in their local locality.

And yesterday we heard, you know, a record number of families are appealing council decisions, 25,000 on these EHCPs where they feel like, you know, a lot of them either fighting for any HCP or others finding that actually it doesn't set out properly what's needed. So families are in this really difficult position where they're feeling like they're having to fight for everything that they're getting. Then on the other hand, you have schools and teachers who are managing more competing needs. I had an email in the last few minutes from a teacher who's saying he's done, he's nine years of experience in a primary school and he's just finding it too hard to manage 30 kids in a classroom but also trying to

manage some children with education, health and care plans. And he said, you know, they should be somewhere else. And it's not fit for every child to be in a mainstream school. So you've all these competing, yeah, agendas. And it's really difficult. Vanessa, stay there because I'm going to bring in Sharon Smith, who's co-director of Special Needs Jungle, a parent-led UK website and resource hub providing news information

and advocacy for families with children with special educational needs. Morning, Sharon. What's your response to the announcement today? And I think that, firstly, it's not necessarily a surprise. Maybe the timing of the announcement is a surprise, but to anyone in the sector who's been paying attention to wording in the department's statements or have attended any of the recently launched national conversation events for parents, it's clear that the direction of travel is that the government is wanting to have more resource provisions, units, hubs,

whatever we want to call them. But I think the timing of this, we have a delayed white paper, schools white paper, which is coming out at some point in early 2026. But also the government have just launched a national conversation with parents, which is meant to be listening to lived experience to help shape the reforms. But this appears, obviously, that there's a clear direction of travel and some sort of significant systemic change. and there's already been decided. I think it's likely to be welcomed by some families, especially those who's children are maybe not in school at the moment, but there are certainly concerns from families and professionals

about the announcement. And I think it is definitely being led by local authority concerns about funding, especially school transport, as Vanessa mentioned. The investment, though, in these additional services, basis within mainstream school is not going to address the systemic issues that we're seeing though that have caused the cent crisis such as lack of investment in that specialist end workforce which again Vanessa referred to mainstream schools becoming more hostile to children with additional needs through the curriculum assessment attendance

behaviour policies etc and council deficits well what kinds of facilities make the biggest difference for children with autism or ADHD or other high needs. I think instead of sort of thinking about what facilities and adaptations are going to make the difference, every child is different. And if our current legislative framework was being enacted and children's individual needs were being assessed and then met without families having to resort to send this tribunal or even the protections of an education, health and care plan, then I think we would actually be in a much better position than we are today but there's a lack of accountability for many aspects of our current legislative framework

which leaves parents as the ones who are having to do that fighting as Vanessa referred to. So I think in terms of the capital expenditure, as I say, some might welcome it but there's a lot of other things need to actually be put in place by the government and that's missing. What would you do then with the $3 billion? Where do you think it's better spent? Or how should it be spent? What would...

Yeah, I think what I would have welcomed more personally is investment in mainstream education in terms of actually supporting mainstream schools to become more inclusive within that mainstream classroom rather than seeing it that inclusion is just children going through the same school gate in the morning, but then having children in separate units and hubs for possibly most of the day, only being able to come out into certain lessons. There is certainly a place, I think, for some specialist resource provision and units. And where they're done well is where

there is a particular expertise and there is a specialism that is developed within the school, but also it becomes two-way. So that special. then is actually put into that mainstream school provision for all, and it benefits all children. And I think that it benefits all children in a mainstream setting to be in a diverse class with children with a whole range of needs. And all of those needs being met. Oh, do you think this funding will help with what's been called the Postcode Lottery and Send Provision? I don't think that it's likely to at the moment. First of all, we don't know how the funding is being allocated across the council.

Exactly, yeah. Or how they will spend it? Absolutely. Earlier this year, the education select committee headed up by Helen Hayes MP, they put out their report, which was following a very extensive inquiry about how to resolve the same crisis. And they talked about resource provisions and units in there. And one of the things that they highlighted was that whilst there is,

some good practice. There's also a lot of concerns and risks of othering and segregation and also low expectations for children in these separate spaces. And they said that before the government go ahead with implementing resource provisions and units and expanding that type of provision, there needs to be a detailed implementation plan. And that is missing from today's announcement. And also what we're seeing is this is, as Vanessa said, it's capital in funding. It's not supporting an increased specialist workforce. And so there's no indication of who's going to be staffing those extra spaces or how that expertise is going to be developed.

I'm going to bring Vanessa back in because Vanessa, we're seeing rising send cases alongside falling overall pupil numbers. So what does that mean for mainstream schools and inclusion strategies? Yeah, so part of the justification for stopping some of the construction of the schools that were planned has been the falling school numbers. That's what Bridget Philipson has said. Now, in theory, it sounds good that numbers are falling, so you might think there's more freedom in schools

to help those who need it. But actually, schools will get less funding per pupil. So they are worried that actually their funding will fall, even though, as you said, the same cases are increasing. And what have the Department of Education said? Well, they are, I think it's becoming clear what their strategy will be early next year, that it's very much a push towards send students being looked after in mainstream schools. So the education secretary Bridget Philipson, who's leading on this, said ahead of our reforms next year,

we're laying the foundation of a new system that shifts children with send from forgotten to included and earns the confidence of parents. The $3 billion investment will transform lives. It will open the door to opportunity for tens of thousands of children with send, giving them the chance to learn, belong and succeed in their local community. This is how we build an education system that works for every child. So we'll be all looking forward to seeing what exactly is in that white paper. And if the things they do are big enough to actually transform this system. Well, to both of you, thank you for now.

Vanessa Clark and Sharon Smith, very much an ongoing conversation here at Woman's Island. Just to remind you, if you haven't already listened to the first day, episode of Women's Hour's News Send in the Spotlight podcast, which is out right now. You can listen to it on BBC Sounds 84844. Now, I'm asking you this morning for your dad and daughter stories. So many of you have been messaging me about my lovely Dad Bell and our bond, having watched us on race across the world, to tell the truth, your observations and sharing your stories of maybe see actually how special my relationship is. So thank you. I'm going to read out some of your texts.

Kelly says, my father died in 2008. We were always close. An English teacher, he encouraged my love of acting in Shakespeare. He referred to himself as Old Lear and to me as Cordelia, saying he was remembering their happier days. Sadly, I wasn't there when he died, having moved away and unable to get home, but he's with me always. It certainly is.

Another one here saying, My sister and I had a terrible relationship with our mother. If it wasn't for our wonderful artist father, life would have been absolutely dreadful. We always felt unconditionally loved by him. He gave us time. He gave us calm and he gave us comfort. Sadly, he died at 67 of a brain tumour, but he lives on in his paintings, enjoyed not just by us, but by his grandchildren whom he never met.

He was our hero. Thank you for that message, Emily. And another one here from Christine says, my dad died when I was 13. I have a precious memory of a very gentle man. When on our way home from holiday on the Isle of White, I was five, I'd had an accident while away and had stitches in my head in front of all the other passengers. he allowed me to pull all my pretty hair slides into his hair. Nothing mattered to him more than his little girls being happy. These are very touching.

Keep them coming in. Well, travelling together for five weeks definitely brought me and my dad closer and also has given dad the travel bug because right now he's currently on a Christmas cruise to Hamburg and I caught up with him earlier this morning. It was an amazing journey. Reaching the end was a real, real rush to get. and really tough and really tough

are you missing travelling with me dad well he's pushing me all over the place don't spread rumours people are recognising you everywhere now as well aren't they they are just like I said just met somebody and she's from Bradford it's all you're on you're on there even with my beard people recognise me now and what's been really lovely

is people talking about how they've enjoyed watching our relationship unfold And in last night's episode, you talked about what it was like having a daughter as an Asian man and how basically grandma said that we don't celebrate girls. So you went against that. You absolutely said, I'm buying a crate of champagne. I love this. That's probably why I love it so much to this day, Dad.

What do you think it was about you that was able to stand up against that? I don't know. I believe in equality. There's no difference between boy and a girl. I think a girl could achieve just as much and probably more was more determined. So for me, every

child was precious or whoever if you were a boy or a girl, the first one I'm going to celebrate all my children so you were born I was doing I was an apprentice then, the mechanic and I took a crate champagne and celebrated with everybody.

A week's wages. I don't know, it was 11 pound a week. I used to get paid then. It's interesting. 11 pounds a week. And that was that a lot of money back then, Dad? It certainly was. You can go out for a pound and still get changed. In Yorkshire. I think that's the other thing that people really related to with you, Dad, was when you were so honest about our family experience, about the ups and downs that we've had and when you had the business and you lost it. And someone said to me how amazing that your dad's being so vulnerable. But I said it's, is it vulnerability? Is it just on

Honestly, there's nothing to be shameful about it. Sometimes you fall down. And if you don't talk about it, like I said, people probably get inspiration if you see people come back up again. And also, it's to people that you go along in life. If you're being kind to them, they'll be kind back to you when you're down as well. So it works both ways. Yeah. I actually think people have sort of seen me in a different context as well, just having this experience with you. Well, how did you feel then? How did you feel it different? No, well, I just, you know, it's stuff that I guess I've talked about in other places, but not so openly. I think when, you know, when you see people with their friend, your friends with their parents, it puts them into context. I think having done this experience with you, people, it's just putting me into a different context. Also, we did have quite a laugh together. We do. Thank God they edited out the bickering. I wasn't bickering. I wasn't bickering. Ah, here we go.

And also, Dad, a really lovely reaction from the Asian community. Yeah, I think they're probably surprised how we aren't, because maybe they have a different version of. Yeah, a different version of growing up, but also, you know, just representing on TV. Also, you represented Yorkshire very well, I think. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah.

And maybe, I don't know, even the Asian community operator is, represented them as well in a different life. Yeah, absolutely. Also, I think we represented the father-daughter relationship. Yeah, I think that's always been missing, I think, in our Asian community. You very rarely see that in any of our programs, wherever you watch. You never see that. You don't.

I mean, not just the Asian community. I just think on TV and the media. I think we're underrepresented as a family bond, the father-daughter relationship. but ours is so special and I feel like this has brought us closer together yeah I think it is straight from

I don't know right from day one when you were born so create the champagne that's our relationship so champagne it is all for the second go for nowadays

no no we'll stick to champagne dad we're sticking to champagne and you've become a bit of a celebrity now because everywhere I go when I'm filming people have said where's your dad You do realise he doesn't come to work with me

Although you are on Woman's Hour again Dad, what's it been like bringing up a daughter? Great. Won't miss it for the world and tell everybody that he should have a daughter and a boy. Nicely balanced out. There you go, me and my dad.

If you haven't finished watching and caught up with the final of race across the world you can catch up with a series on BBC eye player. Keep your comments coming in. There's so many lovely messages about your own fathers. I'll read them a little later

in the program. First. Some much anticipated news. The government's long-delayed strategy to tackle violence against women and girls is set to be unveiled next week.

The BBC understands that a key element of the government's plan to tackle what ministers have described as a national emergency will be a focus on changing attitudes

among boys and young men. According to the Movember Foundation, two thirds of young men regularly engage with masculinity influences online. Well, a new campaign, same side, launched today by UN Women UK, is aiming to counter that

with the help of some leading sports stars. One is the former Manchester City and QPR defender, Nadim Onuoa, now a pundit. He joins us, welcome to Woman's Hour, Nadam. As does Tabitha Morton, executive director of UN Women UK, Tabitha, welcome. Lovely to have you both here. So interesting that we're talking about

lovely dads, lovely calm, wonderful dads that people are messaging us in with and now we're going to talk about, you know, young men. So Tabitha, let's start with understanding same side. Who's it for? How does it work? Tell us all about it. I think part of the research for this campaign has told me exactly that there's so many men out there who want to be those positive role models and that's exactly what this is. Online space is full of very loud voice. given our young men and boys a really narrow definition of what a young man is. They're talking about emotional control, individualism, well, physical toughness, instead of showing like the breadth and depth of being a man

and sort of like, you know, how you can be compassionate and strong at the same time. So what we wanted to do was sort of fill that vacuum that is being filled by influences at the moment with the incredible sportsmen who are out there who have built careers, showing weakness and strength go together, the breadth and depth of being a man, and just give them a platform to share in their voices and answer the questions that young men are asking. So the campaign is all.

We've crowdsourced questions from young men to say, exactly what would you ask these sports stars? And then we're given these incredible men a platform to answer those questions. What kind of questions? Well, when we first started this, I thought it was going to be, how do I get wealthy, how do I get fit?

Because that is what young men are asking the internet. And when they ask those questions, Is that where the sort of messages come through? So to explain how it works? So with the Manosphere, someone doesn't type in, I want to know how to hate women. They type in, you know, how do I get wealthy or strong or something like this? And then they find these influences and it's sort of like a gateway into very quickly. They're often really quite misogynistic views about stoicism and emotions are only for women.

And there are questions that when we were asking young men in the UK, I was just blown away. They were asking things like, what do I do when life is tough? How do I stay emotionally strong? How do I handle, make sure I'm mentally tough and how do I make sure I'm disciplined? These are really quite big questions that young men are asking out there and the answers they're getting are really quite dark. Needham, I'm going to bring you in.

What's your role in all of this? And why did you agree to be part of it? Well, I agree to be part of it because I think within that sort of manifest space and others, you do need a level of pushback to some extent just because I think as we were just here and there sometimes people don't necessarily go asking these really dark questions and take them to dark places sometimes especially for the way social media works it can just be little by little by little by little and before you know it their worldview can completely change and unfortunately that goes from being just an online space to the way that they essentially live their lives I think some of the levels of misogyny and so on can really affect you know women's lives in a significant way and for some of the guys who are doing it you know they're non the wiser about how some of these views are really, in some ways, you know, you could say extreme.

And from my side of things, being asked to be involved in the same side, it's no-brainer because I've been lucky enough since I've retired to travel the world, to be doing work in so many different places. And sport really does reunite so many people, especially the football side of things. Because ultimately, whichever corner of the globe you're out, if there's a ball somewhere and I pass it to you, the chances are you're going to pass it back? You know, we could talk about, you know, same way we're throwing tennis balls and so on. So we can almost have that as the ice break and to have something in common.

but then also we can talk about so many other things and I think for the way that sports works in my lifetime I think on occasion you think what I have to suffer in silence I have to do things this way I have to do things that way because this is the masculine side of things

it's how we have to do it we realise especially for me looking back that that was making things a lot lot harder not just for myself but those are on me as well so how do you answer some of these questions then Adam that the boys have been asking I think you just answer it as openly as possible I think there are times, I don't know if you'd agree with this, but I found, especially with having three young children now, who think they don't know everything, there's never really a point in your life where you think that you don't know enough. So what you see is, you know, that's it. Why do I need to know more? This is everything. This is the way that it should be. I think at times some of the questions that they ask, if you'd have asked me in my early 20s, is very different to the answer I'd give you now as I approach 40. Because now I can see the context of, say, the question, I can see the consequences as well.

and I can see the sort of difference that you can make because you can't necessarily force somebody to go in a certain direction but you can offer them an alternative as such and you can say what potentially could be further down the road but again I just think the the sort of like manifest space and so on and some of the ideas that say people start to believe in like they're believe in it because everyone around them is thinking the same way

but some of those ideas they're really not helping them at all and the people who they almost put on a pedestal they don't really have the other person's interest in there you know it's more sort of like a grift in some ways So from my side of things, being able to answer the questions openly and honestly, for once instead of just thinking that football is like this or life is just like that, before you know, you can see different perspectives and then you realise that a lot of people are going through the same sorts of things. Yeah, and it's not real, is it? These guys are like pretending to be something. They're not. And there's so much conversation for girls around being your true authentic selves and breaking away from all the expectation. And this is essentially doing the same for boys. So this is to get these videos out there onto people's feeds, Tabitha, to give these young boys who need these messages

an alternative model of masculinity. But how are you going to ensure that these videos get to where they need to be? Well, we've got, you know, obviously we've got great sports stars who are putting them out themselves and we've got great partners in, you know, sort of who are getting that out in sort of from a marketing perspective. But the point is this is not just a sort of a flash in the pound campaign. and this is a year-long campaign because once the content gets out there,

isn't you, them's just been talking, it becomes the norm and it doesn't just stay online. It comes into the offline world as well. And it's the way men and boys are talking to themselves and how they're shaping the world for young women as well. So it's having that knock-on effect. And we're seeing also that, sort of for women who have got more public-facing roles,

whether journalism or working in sort of civil rights and things like that, We're seeing a real jump in the sort of the online violence coming into their lives. We did a survey at you and women three years ago that said the women were linking, about 20% of women were linking online violence with offline violence. We've just released some research last week that says that's jumped to 42%. So women are really feeling this. And it's not just about women. This is offering such a narrow view for young men.

It really is. And I do want to repeat that young men are not going looking for this content, but it is finding them. and it is spilling over into their lives and helping them to shape the futures and that's not what we want for our young women and boys. I mean, talking about things spilling into real life, let's talk about real life.

And Nadem, maybe you know this research, but it's from the National Centre for Domestic Violence. It reveals that domestic abuse incidents increased by 26% when our national team plays, 38% if they lose, and 11% the day after, regardless of the outcome. Yeah.

I mean, it's awful. It's just horrible to hear, but do you believe that sport can be the answer? I believe it can be, yeah. And in some ways I almost feel embarrassed by seeing those levels of statistics because, you know, it's coming at the expensive people who really don't deserve anything like that at all. And I think from my side of things for the way the football goes, I can see how for people it forms their identity as such. And that's why I would say that sport can make a difference because the identity has come from, say, this rivalry against this person or this is my favorite player and so on. some of those people who are placed on a pedestal within the sport itself speak about things in a more thorough manner and push back against things which should really matter, then you'd like to think that little by little there will be a difference that's made.

I think the task itself is obviously very, very difficult, especially with sport and some of the abuse that you've mentioned, because at times it almost feels like systemic, to be honest. Yeah. But from when the right people continue to call it out, and what I would do as a reference, actually. So I've never been more connected to an England side than I was under Gariff's Southgate's England side. Yes, yes.

And that's because of the fact that they were speaking up for issues which were happening, say, within their worlds and the world of so many people around them, speaking about things that really matters, speaking about people's rights and so on. And I know that turned off, say, some people, but for others, especially young people, they see that that is norm. Those are people who are at the top of their profession. And this is what matters to them as well as the football. So I think hopefully with people like that and others who can come up and speak properly and push back against things like that instead of just moving on and pretending it never happened. And hopefully we can make a difference. You've actually taken the words out of my mouth because when I knew we were going to be talking about this, I did think how in my lifetime, footballers and the kind of the way you are portrayed, especially our England team, is so different under Gareth Southgate. The values that you sort of stand up dudes who have values and the message that you put out so different to, you know, 20 odd years ago.

So the data you shared is true, but it's never, it's not football's problem. It's always about power and control. That's what violence always is. It's always about power and control. And that's why it's so important for these brilliant players, ex-athletes, to actually stand up and use their platforms. Because instead of seeing this toxic online influences, they're now seeing these men that they really admire,

who are really tough on the pitch, also saying, it's okay to be this way as well. Yeah. Part of the campaign is a guide for parents to start conversations with their children who might be falling under the influence. influence of the manosphere. So what's your advice? Let's give people listening some practical advice. How do you start a conversation? That's exactly it. We don't, you know, as parents, you might be worried because this is not your world. You're not being served. The algorithm is

not serving you this content. And this is exactly what we're saying. Download the guide. Just start the conversation. Open up. So, you know, meet your kids where they are. Get them into a comfortable place. You know, maybe when you're doing the dishes or doing the shopping or going for a picking them up from school and just start talking to them about like what are they seeing online what do they like who's the creators that they're following so rather than saying are you seeing this you know and sort of you know because kids will retreat then just get the conversation started about who they're following what they're interested in and then you can start to sort of a question to say well what do you think of that and how does that affect you and how does that impact you but yeah download the guide and start the conversation you don't have to know all the answers and tell me about the role models you you had growing up, Needham, and then tell me about, you know, how you feel about bringing up three of your own children. Yeah, so this kind of explains my side of things a little bit, but I've got three sisters, no brothers, and then my first two children were girls as well, and then my son came along, changed, book the trend within the family. But in terms of my role

models, it was definitely my parents and my, you know, my mother in particular, you know, the work that the two of them had to do to basically keep their children happy, safe, we were so old-driven because of the work that they were doing themselves. And as a consequence, I can see the positive impact that it had. And for myself, like my worldview, you know, I believe in universally human rights. I believe in trying to empower people whenever I can. You know, I'm not going to be doing something from my side at the expense of somebody else. And that came from the hardworking nature that my parents and stuff had from when I was a child.

I was very, very fortunate to see them, to see them live the life that they were living, which was tough for them like being in Manchester during the 90s as like Nigerian immigrants wasn't necessarily the easiest thing in the world but they did the best that they could and they showed that, no, you can get by, you can be positive, you can try and make a difference and you will respect to those around you as well and I think I've carried that through with me to adulthood.

Absolutely. And very important, so that the parents do engage. Can't ignore it. Absolutely. And it's also, but also understand that it does feel a bit scary, we get that. But there's support out there for you. And once you start having those conversations, Let your kids know you're supported.

And very quickly, Tabitha, we're hearing that the government are going to be publishing their strategy for combating violence against women and girls next week. Do you welcome this? I do, but we have to do the prevention work. We absolutely have to do the prevention work as well. Well, thank you both for joining me, Niedem, Onuoha, and Tabitha, Morton. Thank you.

Lots of messages coming in about a variety of things. We started the programme discussing the three billion pounds that's been announced for special educational needs in schools by the government. you've been getting in touch someone has said Graham has been in touch to say our daughter has downs and we felt

very strongly we wanted her to remain in my mainstream school the reality was tough by her early teens she just could not access the curriculum so we moved her

to a specialist school she loved it the government is most definitely doing the right thing here and another one saying I get that we would wish

for the majority of send children in mainstream schools but some have such complex needs my daughter is non-speaking and has significant learning

disabilities. The mainstream provision always said to me they couldn't meet her needs and it wasn't due to an extra breakout room or hub. It's about the specialist staffing need. 844. Comment on anything you're hearing on the program. Your thoughts and opinions always welcome. Now, have you already overindulged at a few parties? Could you imagine getting through the festive season without booze? Well, guest Laura Antonia Jordan hasn't had a drink or even been mildly tipsy. for Christmas for 10 years now. She's a journalist. She's written about navigating the festive season completely sober after years of living by, as she calls it, the doctrine of hedonism.

She says the cultural pressure can be tough, but dry December does not have to be boring. Welcome. Hello, thanks to having me. It's lovely to have you here. Why did you give up alcohol? Well, I always felt deeply uncomfortable in myself, and then I discovered alcohol. and for a while it gave me a kind of faux confidence. Yeah. And then because everything I do I do to extremes, I did that to extremes.

And then, yeah, it gave up when I was 30. I think it's so embedded in our culture, isn't it? I mean, in the UK, it's what we do. We kind of, it's a right of passage as teenagers. You go to the pub after work. And it's something that is so normal socially. Absolutely. It's such a great way to bond until it's not.

I grew up when it was like Ladets everywhere, and I thought, oh, great, maybe one day I can be like that, thinking that it was like sex and the city was on, and it was like cosmopolitans. And of course, none of this is actually what it looked like for me, but that's kind of how I imagined it. So how difficult was it to give up? I tried for years before I actually managed to, even when I had my last drink, I didn't really believe that it would be. I tried so many different things I tried to drink less obviously but for me it is it turns out easier not to drink

at all than to try and do anything in moderation especially drink what was what's the hardest bit like I'm just trying to think how you then navigate social situations without alcohol the hardest bit it's a big question

but one of the things that I know people find very difficult is other people's opinions. Yes. And it often, people do have an opinion. And there's this misconception that you are boring or somehow judging everybody. And let me say, I am not judging. Until someone's told you the same story seven times. Yeah, exactly.

And I do highly recommend, that is my one piece of advice for the festive season. If you're doing it sober, feel free to do a French exit. Because when you've heard a story that's not that entertaining, once, you don't need to hear it seven times. But when I asked, like, how do you, what's the hardest bit to navigate? At what point did you realize you could go to a social situation and not think, oh, I'll just have one, just being at, you know, weddings or birthdays. Like, how do you cope?

Yeah, look, I was thrown into the deep end quite early on because I had a couple of big weddings to go to. And if I could do that. I mean, initially I thought, what a brilliant excuse for a relapse. And I didn't. And that is that thing of like just saying you just get through tonight, sometimes just get through the next hour. And you'll be so grateful the next day.

I won't have to do that wondering what I did. Wondering who that is next to me. Wondering what that mysterious withdrawal from the account was at 3 o'clock in the morning, all that stuff. That helps. but there's always, if you're like me, and I know there'll be people listening that they've just, it's just Christmas and they've overdone it a bit

and it's one hangover too many, but if you're like me, there was always an excuse. And I think there's an element of realizing that. And there are things that I've got through in the last 10 years that I never could have, I never would have thought I'd get through without a drink, but I couldn't really get through a normal Tuesday without a drink. Well, can I just say well done?

Oh, thanks so much. He is. It's a lot. It means a lot and it was really like about turning up and giving myself a shot as well. You know, you know. Yes. I get it. Of a ginger juice. Yeah. Well, just something you, just to pick up on something you said, you know, not feeling a shame or wondering what you'd done or who was lying next to you. How do you see women around you dealing with their alcohol intake? I think it's important to say that I did definitely drink to extremes and I didn't realize, which terrifies me now. did not realize until I stopped that not everyone blacks out all the time. So I do think there's a big difference between someone who's an addict as I am.

And I'm also, you can see me, I'm quite small. Like, I can't drink like the lads, you know. She's small, but her eyes are sparkling. I would say petite. You're about the same size as me. Anyway, yes. Yeah, my eyes sparkle now. They didn't use to.

Well, yeah, interesting. Sorry, I've lost my train. Yes, I was talking about women and their intake and you were saying that you, you know, you drunk to extremes, not everybody blacks out. Yeah, I think that one of the things I do find scary is you sometimes see girls, especially at this time of year, on the night bus or the tube.

And I think, how are you getting home? I have actually helped walk someone home before. Yeah. And it's totally your prerogative to get as drunk as you want and get home safely. But I do worry. I think that for women, it can react in different ways as well

but it's some people it doesn't bother them I well we did it with the last item but we're going to do it here as well because I think there'll be people really leaning into this because it is there's a lot of pressure even if you're not a full-blown addict there's just still a lot of pressure and people might be feeling concerned

that I just want one drink I don't want to have to be peer pressured into drinking loads so can we give people some practical advice because you know family and friends God love them but you know if you're choosing not to drink, there are people who might make you feel a little bit. Well, yeah. Did that happen to you? I guess the advice is kind of two separate bits of advice, right? There's the advice for people that are drinking if they know people who aren't.

And then there's the people that are choosing perhaps just to try and not drink this Christmas or to drink less. If you are the person that is drinking, please just don't hassle people about it. That's what I'll say. Also, perhaps don't ask them why. There are so many reasons. Yeah. And that's their personal choice. If you're the person that's choosing not to drink, I will say you, as I said, you're so welcome to do a French exit.

Make sure there's going to be options for you. I sometimes bring my own drinks with me because I just don't want to be stuck drinking water as my only choice. I would say that you'd be surprised when you ask around how many people aren't. but also I just really really want to say to people on both sides I am a headness still and the reason that I'm still not drinking is because my life is better

it's bigger, it's brighter it's more colourful without it and I have no judgement about anyone else and I know it's the same for a lot of other people really lovely important advice Laura thank you for coming in to talk to me I'm going to read this message out's come from Jenny she says whilst I've never felt better now

I don't drink alcohol I've never had to explain a decision more people can't understand why I wouldn't want to drink unless it's due to a medical condition. Someone not drinking seems to make people examine their own relationship with Elkan, and that makes them uncomfortable. Go on. Yeah, it makes people really uncomfortable because I think they think that you're standing there being, yeah, in judgment. And it also is because often they feel like it.

Also, not to preach dishonesty, but if you want to say you're on antibiotics or you're driving, feel free. Like, I know it's not easy to actually say, none of your business but try that yeah just for the just for the lull um thank you so much no it's been a real really interesting speaking to laura antonia jordan thank you thank you for me 84844 is the number to text i'm going to read another dad one out my amazing dad is 94 and lives an independent life after losing my 93 year old mom after more than 70 years of marriage he fueled in us the qualities of being hardworking values led independent women and yet loving

family-oriented women. He spent hours teaching as car maintenance, gardening, decorating, woodworking, etc. I plumbed in the kitchen in our new home, much to my husband's amusement and amazement. Our dad is one in a million. We are blessed indeed. Oh, what brilliant daughters he brought up. Love that you plumbed in your new kitchen. Lucky husband. Now, boudoir photography. Have you heard of it? Stripping down into lingerie and posing for a photographer may sound like something from the world of supermodels and glossy magazines, but there are lots of women from all walks of life who are choosing to pay for professional, intimate photos as gifts for partners, or just because it's going to make them feel good about themselves.

Well, joining me to discuss the increasingly popular world of boudoir photography are Laura Slater, who runs Lumiere Photographic, and Jolie Gordon, who booked herself a photography session at Laura Studio two years ago, and as I'll never look back, Laura and Jolie, welcome to Woman's Hour. So, Laura, Boudoir photography, tell us more. It's life-changing. It's changed my life. It has changed my client's lives.

And it is on the up. It's when I first started doing Boudoir photography probably eight or nine years ago. It was not something that was massively well-known, much more popular in America. I think the British are still a little bit prude for it. But it's getting there, and I think it's increasing popularity is slightly down to people understanding a little bit more about it's not just sexy photos, it's empowerment. And it's the pictures for me, and it feels strange to say as a photographer, the pictures are almost a bonus. It's the feeling that you leave the studio with that's the biggest part of it for me. Jolie, why did you want to have a boudoir photography session?

Tell us about you. Yeah, so I'm a mum of two. I've got two daughters at their 9 and 11 now. They were 9 and 7 at the time. And I'd had quite a difficult year in 2023. I had had surgery for endometriosis at the beginning of the year. And then in the spring of that year, I was diagnosed with psoritis, completely out of the bloom,

completely unexpectedly. And so I felt a bit like my body had been through the mill. It had been, as I say, a really difficult year mentally. And I felt a bit lost. I didn't know who I was anymore. You know, certainly not the 20-year-old self. I felt like in my head. I felt like my body in my head didn't really much,

especially after I ran two children as well. You know, the changes on your body are massive. Yeah. I'd been thinking about having a boudoir shoot for a while, actually. But I'd never found the right photographer. there is a perception of Boudoir photography that is a bit tacky or can be certainly a little bit cliché and I really want to steer away from that

and I came across Laura and she was offering everything that I felt like I wanted from a photo shoot which was to feel sort of sophisticated than sexy rather than sexy and tasteful. and looking beautiful. Laura, talk us through one of your typical sessions. How does it work? So my clients will come to me.

I have a studio in Ilkley, West Yorkshire, so we're all Yorkshire girls. So they'll come to me at the studio for kind of around 10 o'clock, go straight into hair and makeup, where my amazing makeup artist make them feel gorgeous, the best version of themselves. It's a good hour to chat to them and kind of take their mind off what's going to.

coming next because obviously nerves are part and parcel of booking a shoot. It's very normal for people to be very, very nervous. After an hour in hair and makeup, we'll start talking through their outfits that they've bought with them. I do also have a bit of a client wardrobe that I'm building up if anyone needs extra things that they've forgotten or heels to borrow or anything like that. And then we'll get into the photo shoot, which lasts for kind of around two hours. I guide my clients from top to toe, pose them, tell them how to smile, how to breathe, literally everything. So nobody has to worry about a single thing. And then after the photo shoot, they leave me for an hour to go off and get some well-earned lunch. And after that

hour, they come back and they see their photos. And what are the reactions? Often very emotional. lots of happy tears which is amazing and that is what I live for that's what makes me love this job so much um a lot of people say to me when they first come in I don't think I can look like the women on your Instagram page and then when they see their photos at the end they go oh my god I look like one of the girls on your Instagram page so that's it's a really nice really positive reaction from people and I know there's a strict plan for how to keep the studio environment safe. It's you, you lock the door, and it's just for the women.

What about the images themselves? If the person who's in the photo shares them with the partner, is there a concern that they may end up in the wrong place or on the internet or being used in a way that they don't want them to be? For me, no. Everything that I do is stored at the studio on my hard drive, nothing's cloud-based. My clients have full kind of privacy rights.

I will always ask people after the session if they're happy to share or share anonymous photos or not share at all. And anyone is absolutely fine. And if they click not all, that's fine by me. Jolie, I want to know a bit more about your experience. I mean, were you nervous? And how did you decide what to wear?

Oh, my gosh. I was absolutely petrified. I remember going into law and saying, I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know. And I was one of the people that said, I've got, I genuinely don't believe I can look like the people on your Instagram page. Genuinely don't believe that.

In terms of choosing what to wear, I just, I ordered everything. Every single thing I like the look of. I think I turned up to Laura with about 20 different items of underwear. And Laura did help me go through and she said, right, okay, this will work, this will work, this might not work so well. And so I was completely guided by her. What have you done with the photos? So I did share one photo, and I shared it on Instagram, on my stories, but I made sure I hid all my mother-in-law, my dad, my stepdad, you know, all the people you don't necessarily want you to see you.

But I chose one photo that, you know, wasn't too explicit, you know, or anything like that. None of them were explicit, but, you know, less revealing, perhaps. and the reaction was incredible you know people were saying well done you this is brilliant you look amazing and I wanted to share it because I thought wow

oh my gosh I look amazing I'm really proud of this the rest of them so I think I purchased eight of my photos eight or nine of my photos and the rest of them I've kept for my husband's eyes only and they're in a hidden file on my phone I'm not shared them anywhere else

yes and not not in a shoe where daughters can find them. No, well, I didn't. So I know people do choose to have their images printed and put on campuses and stuff, and that's, you know, totally their prerogative. But I decided to keep my digital for that exact reason. How did, yeah, keep the kids away from it just yet.

How did you feel at the end of your shoot when you looked at those photos? Oh, my goodness. Shock and disbelief. And it really was a, oh, my word, I didn't ever think I'd be able to look like that. emotional, yeah, for sure. But I think for me, it was just surprise

that I looked like I did in these pictures. And I think by the end of the shoot, I actually felt confident enough that Laura said, let's do something a bit different. And I took everything off and posed with a bed sheet. So I was like, and I had no intention of doing that, but Laura gave me the confidence to do that. Go you.

Yes, the empowerment and the sense of liberation. I can only imagine. Would your husband consider doing a couple shoot with you, do you think? Absolutely not. Do you only shoot women, Laura? I do couples, so men are involved obviously there. If they want to be, it's mostly women. For me, I have a lot of requests for male boudoir.

It's not something that I offer at the moment. Like you touched on earlier, there's an element of safety, the door's locked, it's just me. Yes. That's kind of my reason why at the moment. Well, you're providing a wonderful service for women. in. Thank you so much, Laura Slater and Jolie Gordon. I'm going to end the program with a few more of your lovely messages. It's my father's 84th birthday today. He's an inspiration, still working, dancing and writing. He lives in Philadelphia, but I'm lucky to feel close to him here in London. And another one

here is saying my dad and I have always been close. The other day he came down to see me in Bath where I'm studying photography at uni. We watched the snooker together because he's taught me the rules of snooker, just like my dad taught me, Paul. We had a right laugh watching the match. I'm hoping to get him tickets for a snooker match for his birthday, but he has no idea I've been trying to do this unless he's listening to Women's Hour right now. And one more from Beth, saying I had some brilliant holidays with my father with so many wonderful memories of fun in Italy, the Amalfi Coast, Lake Garda and Venice. They were treasured precious times with a few great stories which we look back and laugh at now. It really strengthened our bond. That's it from me.

Thank you so much for all your lovely messages. Join me tomorrow at 4 o'clock for weekend. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Nula McGarverin and I want to tell you about a BBC podcast called Send in the Spotlight. The number of children with special educational needs is increasing. Too many parents are having to fight to get those needs met and councils are spending money that they do not have. Against a backdrop of government reform, I bring together families, teachers, experts and decision makers to reimagine the system. Listen to Send in the Spotlight on BBC Sounds.