Woman's Hour - SEND reforms: A Woman's Hour and SEND in the Spotlight special

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

Woman's Hour in collaboration with our SEND in the Spotlight podcast brings you a special programme on the impact of the government's SEND reforms in England.Whether you’re a parent, a young person, a teacher or someone who works in the wider system we find out what the changes mean for you - and help you decode the new language - whether it's IB, ISP, Targeted, Targeted Plus, or SPP. Nuala McGovern speaks to parents, teachers, charities, the School Standards Minister and the Children’s Commissioner for England. We also hear from SEND in the Spotlight podcast regulars - actors Anna Maxwell Martin and Kellie Bright.Search for the SEND in the Spotlight podcast on BBC Sounds.Contributors: Georgia Gould MP, Schools Standards Minister Marsha Martin, founder of Black SEN Mamas Katie Ghose, CEO of Kids charity and Disabled Children's Partnership Margaret Mulholland, Association of School and College Leaders Kate McGough, BBC Education reporter Eleanor Wright, solicitor at SOS!SEN Ramandeep Kaur, SEND parent Carrie Grant, SEND parent and broadcaster Katie Nellist, SEND ambassador Louise Gittins, chair of the Local Government Association Dame Rachel de Souza, Children's Commissioner for EnglandPresenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Crawley, with Carolyn Atkinson Digital producer: Olivia Bolton Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

And all the bizarre ways people are using. the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower. Well, we've got six new episodes for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips. tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating

infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome. This morning, Women's Hour is live in collaboration with Send in the Spotlight, our podcast, to bring you a special program on the impact of the government's Send Reforms. The biggest shake-up in a generation. So this is a very important moment. It comes after years of discussions on what is needed for children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities. We have a lot to discuss about the detail that has been released. in the government's white paper. The school standards minister, Georgia Gould, will be with me in just a moment

to answer some of the questions that have been raised by you on the proposed changes. We also have Dame Rachel DeSouza, the Children's Commissioner, who will have official oversight of these reforms. How will she hold the government to account? Curry Grant, send parent and campaigner, will be with us,

as will 18-year-old Katie Nellist, who is autistic and wanted radical change, they'll join our many other guests. You have continually told us that the system is broken. The actor and send parent Anna Maxwell Martin agreed. I asked her if this is the fix she was hoping for. I feel really positive that we're going in the right direction. And after sort of four years of campaigning and lobbying myself

and with different organisations that I work with, I really feel that Bridget Philipson and her team have definitely listened in terms of inclusion, meeting children's needs at the point of need, in the early stages, rather than at the sort of firefighting stage, trying to make these processes easier, trying to support teachers.

Anna Maxwell Martin there, if you'd like to get involved in the conversation, many of you have already this morning, the number is to text is 844-on-on-social on social media, where at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note, that number, 0,3700, 10044.

But let me turn to the woman in front of me. Georgia Gold, school standards minister, responsible for implementing these huge changes to the SEND system. Good morning. Good morning. Now, of all the changes coming down the track, what is going to be the trickiest to pull off?

Look, I think the trickiest thing me is ensuring that parents really have confidence in what we're trying to do because I have spent months talking to families and they have been so badly let down, you know, parents who have had to fight for years and often experience kind of real failure in relation to their children's lives when, you know, everything they've said hasn't been heard and, you know, it's a massive shift to turn that around for families. and they need to really, you know, be part of the change and be confident in what we're trying to achieve.

So I think working with them and ensuring that they're staying part of this conversation is the most important thing for me. So confidence. Yeah, I suppose we could also add trust to that one as well. A hundred percent trust, yeah. I want to get into some of the specifics. And some of their trust has been broken, and I really understand why.

So I think that is a really important point. So let's get into some of the specifics. Yeah, lots of new information in the reforms, some confusion. I want to bring actor, send parent and send in the spotlight podcast regular Kelly Bright. There's so much to talk about, but I'm going to talk about the ISP because we are one of those families that would almost definitely not qualify for an EHCP under these new changes.

And to be quite honest, I don't understand what an ISP is. I have so many questions, an individual support plan that is delivered by schools, chosen by schools, delivered by schools. It has tiered levels targeted, targeted plus. What does that actually translate to? What is the legal basis for this piece of paper? And what happens if my son's ISP isn't being delivered the way I think it should be? So many questions. Let's tackle one of them. Individual support plan, ISP, EHCP, which Kelly mentions there is an education, health and care plan, which is a document that legally entitles you to support. What about the legal basis?

If somebody has an ISP, do they actually have a legal entitlement to everything that is documented in that plan? So the individual support plan will be on a legal footing. Schools are going to have a legal duty to develop inclusion plans and to develop individual support plans. And those will be overseen by Ostead. And if a parent is unhappy with what is in their individual support plan,

they will be able to go to the school complaint system and we are introducing a new role, an independent send role, that will be looking at what's in that provision. But I think just taking a step back, why we've developed the individual support plan is because so many families have told me that at the moment, getting an EHCP is the only route to support,

and often that takes years. Parents have said, you know, they've spent, you know, tens of thousands of pounds, and there's nothing underneath that. And we are creating new layers of support. that are funded underneath the EHCP. So the EHCP is still there, but there are 1.2 million children

who don't have EHCPs who have send. And this is a new entitlement for those children. Lairz is one word that might strike fear into the hearts of parents that have gone through so many layers of bureaucracy before. But I do want to get to that point. Can I just address that point of layers? Because I think there's been a real confusion.

Let me. Let us come back to Lairs in just one moment. I just want to go to the legal footing, that particular term, because you say schools, for example, they're on a legal footing to create these plans. But I'm still not clear on whether what is written in the ISP is a statutory entitlement for those parents. I mean, is that a legal document

that they are entitled to everything that is said in that document? Yes, so there will be a legal basis to develop these documents. documents, they'll have to have regard to the national inclusion standards that we're setting out. So what that actually looks like in practice, a targeted child who is receiving targeted support, it might be that their individual support plan sets out their reasonable adjustment. So, you know, that they need a movement break every hour because otherwise they struggle to concentrate in a lesson. That, of course, you know, is a reasonable adjustment is something that they are legally entitled to or that they need to go to lunch, 10 minutes early or that they have a kind of small group session around reading.

But then at that targeted plus level, it might set out that they have access to speech and language therapy or to an inclusion base. But I think the real difference is that we are actually funding this. So we are putting ring fence funding in place for schools to be able to deliver this. And 1.8 billion to deliver those experts at hand, the specialists that sit around schools to mean that schools can deliver what's in them. But the thing I wanted to say about layers, because I think it's important,

is you don't need to move through every layer to get support. You can go straight into an assessment for a specialist place. You can go straight into targeted parts. These are not hoops you need to jump into, but these are layers of support that are available to schools as part of the mainstream system to support your child. I think the hoop that people might be concerned about, because at the moment with an EHCP, for example, you go to tribunal.

It's over 90% where the parents are successful in getting what they're legally entitled to. It's an adversarial process. Everybody agrees on that. However, with this, the only recourse they will have is to go to the school and start a complaint system again. So every parent will still have access to an assessment for a specialist provision package. So if a parent feels that their support is not being met by the individual support plan, by the targeted plus layer, they could ask for an assessment as they do now for an EHCP. And if they were unhappy with outcome of that assessment, they could still go to the tribunal. So, you know, that access point is still there. This is about putting layers of support below that that are properly funded.

Because many families have told me, even when they have an EHCP, actually the support isn't there to back it up. but we are backing this up by £4 billion of investment so that when something is set out in the individual support plan, children are able to access it. And I wouldn't underestimate the power of Ofsted looking at this because this is really important to schools, what Ostead say, and that accountability will be powerful in the system.

You talk about $4 billion. There is, and projected a shortfall by the OBOR of six in the coming years. So some people saying that that is not enough money. but I do want to turn to EHCPs because it's a major concern for parents with children that have them the education, health and care plans. In the future, they will be reassessed

at the end of primary school and the question is could they lose those legal entitlements to support at that point? It appears that they could. Why that timing, so many parents have told me that it's precisely the worst time to reassess children as they transition

between schools. So as you're aware that every year in the HCP is reviewed in any case but we have a few but there is a difference

I feel between the word review and reassessment. A review could be looking at how well the child is doing or what might be added.

A reassessment that word and it has frightened some parents it makes them feel that it's trying to figure out is this child still

eligible? This is what we're talking about is the transition point to the new system. So there are three really important things that I would like to say to parents about this and three really important points of reassurance. The first is if their child is in a special school, they will remain in a special school. If they're in a special primary, they can go to a special secondary.

If they want to come into the mainstream system, some might, they can, but they will be able to remain in a specialist setting as we go forward, regardless of that transition into the new system. If they are the parent of a child with an EHCP in a mainstream setting, we will, you know, we're really, really clear that we will not transition anyone into the new system until 2030. And in the meantime, we will build up that new system, all the investment I've talked about, all the national inclusion standards, Ofsted looking into schools, the teacher training, the development at 3.7 billion into new places. all of that will be in place before we transition anyone. And the third is nobody will transition from an EHCP until the individual support plan is in place.

But yeah, there will be some children. But what about I'm talking about that particular age, you know, whether it's into a much bigger school, whether it's children going, you know, about to go through puberty. They say it's just the worst time, particularly for children with send. It can be a crucial time. Why not earlier or later?

Why that timing? Because we felt it was a natural point to transition when you're moving through education stages. But we expect that of children who have existing EHCPs, and we put this in the document, about one in eight will transition over to individual support plans. And for those children, if they moved into secondary, every secondary school were expecting to have an inclusion blaze. Every secondary school will have access to 160 days of specialist support. Every secondary school teacher will have to be trained to support children of special educational needs and disabilities. So they'd be moving with an individual support plan that laid out all of their needs,

their reasonable adjustments, the interventions they needed, if they needed access to an inclusion base. So they'd be moving with a whole host of support, whether they were moving within the HDP or an individual support plan. This is not about taking support away from families. we're investing heavily, not just the 4 billion I've talked about, but another 3.5 billion in 28, 29, into making this work because it is failing too many families,

and I'm sure that's what you have heard on this programme for years. Many times, many times. A couple of aspects I want to get to really on the points that you've brought up there. Extra supported mainstream secretary level will come, as you mentioned, in the form of an inclusion base in every school. Can you clarify what you mean by that? Because you say it's based, there's two different, models, a support base and a specialist based. But will both of those bases be in every

secondary school? So we're saying at least one of those bases will be in every secondary school. So, you know, there's two models for people who don't know the difference between the two. So inclusion, a specialist base is commissioned by the local authority and it is for children often with who needs specialist provision and a support base is developed by schools and you invested in within the school budget. So we'll have at least one, but we expect many schools, we'll have both. But you expect, but what if you need the other base? You know what I mean if the base that you need is not provided in your local mainstream school? So we're really clear at that transition point, the child will retain, will have priority to choose their school.

So they will be able to choose a school and have priority admissions, regardless of whether they have an individual support plan or an EHCP, those children who are transitioning. So they will, you know, a parent will of course look at the school. Do they have the right kind of base for my child within that school? And they will make that choice and they will have priority to get into that school. Staying with another aspect of the EHCP, some that we're hearing from feel that it's already been decided that children with autism and ADHD won't get an EHCP after the reassessment. Is that true? No, the specialist provision packages are not set out on conditions. And I think it would be really helpful for families worried about this to have a look at the draft specialist provision packages we've set out.

So these have been developed by experts. We've had an expert advisory group who've supported us. And they set out three categories of groups that we expect to need access to specialist support in the new system. So one are children who have physical disabilities, multisensory needs. Some of those children will really want to be at mainstream, getting a mainstream. Curricular, many of them will be. But, you know, if you're a child who's visually impaired, you'll need access to assistive technology, qualified teachers of a visually impaired, habilitation support,

that wraparound package. The second group of children are children with social and emotional learning needs, and that includes internalising and externalising. And you'll see within the description that there are children with ADHD and autism who particularly can fit into some of those categories in terms of their needs. And the third is children with learning difficulties and needs. around executive function communication needs. So, you know, this is not the final list,

but we wanted to show parents kind of the kind of needs we were thinking about. And there will be an independent panel of experts, educators, health experts, who will work with parents, young people, disabled children's organisations, to set out which are the children we really think need that specialist provision package,

set that out very clearly. So to really give reassurance to families, This is not saying this condition gets this, this condition gets that. This is about the needs of your child. And some children with autism can thrive in a mainstream school with support and some do need specialist support. And we'll have that distinction in the new system. You mentioned visually impaired there

and it just reminds me of some questions other parents had. Will a child whose special need or disability is never going to change also have to be reassessed? No, we're creating a new system. where, and this is actually working with disabled children's organisations, for the children who have the, you know, from birth, some of the most complex needs and who themselves, you know, I've talked to families who've had to battle for years

when their child has extreme complex needs. We're creating effectively a fast-track system. We're going to work with the NHS to be able to wrap support around those families faster and really improve the support they get through the system. Because, you know, these are children that will, of course, have an EHCP, but as many families will say, you know, that promise of education and health and local government really working together has not transpired for some of those families. So we're doing a lot of work to how we bring the system together to provide really holistic support for those children with the most complex needs. A lot of work being done.

It is a consultation which I want to underline. Very much so. That's really important. We want to hear people's views on what we've set out. So a load of questions, for example, at the end of the document. How can people contribute to that consultation? And I suppose they'll want to know, will their answers make any difference, or is it just tweaks to what we're seeing already?

Yeah, so we have very deliberately taken a lot of time over this and had a big national conversation. And I want to really say to parents watching, or listening, sorry, that their ideas have really shaped this document. And there are big changes that have been made as a result of our work with disabled children's organizations and parents already. But we want to continue to listen. We've set out a set of proposals that we really think will make things better for children,

but we want their views. And so hopefully you'll share the link of a consultation document as part of this program, but we'll also be organising events around the country, continuing to do online events, working with disabled children's organisations, schools, colleges, early years settings to get people's views around every part of of England. And we really do want those views and we will very much kind of continue to work with people to get this right because this is a generational opportunity to change things for the children that have been failed for too long. The school standards minister, Georgia Gould, thanks very much for coming into us in the Women's Hour studio this morning as we speak about the government's white paper, the reforms that are in it talking about send. Our conversation continues. Let me introduce some of our guests that are with us this hour, Marsha Martin. founder of Black Send Mamas, Katie Goche, CEO of the Kids Charity and Vice Chair of Disabled Children's Partnership.

They represent more than 100 charities. We have Margaret Mulholland, send an inclusion specialist at the Association of Schools and College Leaders. And also back with this, Katie Nellis, who is 18. She's actually been out of school since she was 13. She's spoken on Woman's Hour before. You may already be familiar with Katie. But let me begin with you, Marcia. I will ask this question of my guests.

What do you welcome in these reforms and in what the minister has just said? And also I'll find out what you're worried about. I think what I'm most welcome, and I think most parents are welcoming of this, it's just the general recognition that, you know, the current centre system isn't working for families or schools and reform is needed. There is positive intention around things like earlier support, improving inclusion in mainstream schools, investing in training as specialist, just so that children get help sooner rather than having to reach crisis point before, you know, support appears.

If done well, strengthening mainstream provision could mean there are fewer families having to fight for support. It could mean children being helped in their local schools alongside their peers. There is a focus on consistency and national standards. those also could help reduce the postcode lottery that families currently experience but everything kind of depends on entirely how those standards are delivered in practice. I think that's the main thing that I'm concerned.

All about the implementation. I will be speaking to Dame Rachel D'Souza later in the programme, the Children's Commissioner who also has the remit of overseeing these reforms and holding the government to account. But let me jump to you, Katie Nellis. back with us. How are you feeling this morning? What about what the minister said, what you're hearing?

Well, my initial reaction to reading the white paper was, I was very angry and upset, and it slowly turned to sadness and worry because I don't know if I have the legal right to an education anymore, and that's a very scary position to be in. I'm currently on education other than at school, and that is something that's mentioned absolutely nowhere in the white paper, and I feel very forgotten about most of the white paper is focusing on very academic attainment and assessments and attendance.

But it feels like if you can't do any of those things, then you don't matter and you're being forgotten about. And I'm just finding that very concerning. And I also feel like if I had to go through the system that's being proposed, I would end up with more trauma because lots of this stuff wouldn't help me. I'm very uniquely vulnerable and I just seem to fall through the cracks in every system. Thanks, Katie, for that. You weren't reassured. I mean, because she is trying to, they are trying to, should I say, rebuild trust. What would it take? Oh, I mean, trust is so badly damaged, and I don't see trust getting better with this. You know, we're so used to fighting the local authorities, and obviously that's a very broken relationship, but I think we're just going to change to having to fight our schools instead,

and that's going to be even worse in a way, because with a local authority, once it's over, you can kind of ignore them again. But if you're being forced to go into school every day, you might end up seeing your teachers in your community as well, and that's such a broken relationship. I think it's going to do even more damage to trust. Let me turn to you, Margaret Mulholland, who's been listening to it all. I think Katie's message there is really important. We really need to reassure.

And I need to reassure in representing school leaders that they can really meet those personalized needs. And I think this is one of our anxieties. We're really welcoming of the ambition of this paper. We're welcoming send at the centre. But we recognize inclusion takes a long time. It's a process. And I think increased funding will help,

but actually will headteachers, teachers, have the tools to really address the range of needs in school settings and those complex needs that may not now be in a special school, but be in a mainstream context. And I think we're ambitious for this. We want to work with the government. We're really welcoming of the consultation and the opportunity to shape what comes next. We're particularly pleased with the notion of the expert at hand.

We think that could be really valuable. So that will be educational psychologists, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, basically really bulking that up and making it more fit for purpose. Absolutely. I was in a primary school last week where they have access. to a speech and language therapist on a rare occasion. And when that's in place, it's simply targeted at a year five student and not at the early years where it's really needed. I think the bringing together of disadvantage and send

and that intersectional kind of lens on the white paper is really important. We're talking about children having the best start in life. That's going to make a significant difference. Shaw start is really missed by schools in terms of supporting families. to engage. But really, what does this mean on the ground for schools? That's what we want to ask next. Katie Gosch. I really welcome the fact that the minister has clearly heard about the fight and she wants to replace the fight with early support so kids can go to a school and have the chance to make friends and learn. The bit we're really worried about is the future of

education, health and care plans. I'm thinking about a young man. Still, EHDPs. After all, she has said, what is it that struck you that you're like, I'm not sure about? I'm thinking about a young man, he's 12, autistic, ADHD, anxiety, academically able. If in a few years time, the individual support plan, all that support, good endeavours, hasn't worked for him. We need to hear from the government that an EHCP will remain open to someone like him if his needs haven't been met. Thanks all for that. We continue to talk. I do want to bring in the BBC education reporter Kate McGuff, who joins us regularly on this end in the spotlight. podcast. I wonder what your reflections, Kate, are on how all of this is playing out, having

followed the developments and the delays, of course, for so long. Well, to me, it does seem like these are radical reforms, but what really struck me is how they're planning to be introduced gradually. You know, we've had Bridget Phillipsman talk about a decade-long shift. They're obviously been very careful about trying to put new support in place before they make changes to EHCP. but I think it will take a while to develop these new national standards that they're talking about for EHCPs. So in one respect, we will have uncertainty for a little bit longer, maybe until 2028 about what these new national standards are

and whether your child will fit into this specialist level of support. But on the other hand, the government will say in that time, before that change, there should be more support in place quicker within mainstream schools. And I think what struck me is the government's been so careful, to emphasise the investment going into schools and the system now and they really don't want to talk about framing it as cutting costs in the future. Obviously that might be politically tricky. But it does seem like, you know, what we're seeing is the direction of travel

of a sustained commitment to inclusion. But like you say, there are winners and losers from that. Yeah, and the funding is a very tricky issue. Definitely projections are different depending on who you speak to. I think everyone can agree that the costs have gone prohibitive over the past years and particularly from 2015, there has been a massive increase in the amount of people looking for provision. But EHCPs, they're on the tip of everybody's tongue this morning, let us drill down even further into them, education, health and care plans. With me to discuss is

Eleanor Wright, solicitor at the Legal Rights Charity SOS, S-E-N. Also on the line, Louise Gitton's, chair of the local government association. We have the parent and broadcaster, Carrie Grant, who has children with send and Ramandip, a mother of a young man with Dan's syndrome. Welcome to all of you. Eleanor, our legal voice here. Hi. Good to have you with us. Will families' legal rights remain intact? I think that's a crucial question that people are asking. Well, that's our real worry. And if anything, they seem to be weakened. People like me and my charity and others have been saying to successive government, so the problem with the current law is purely the lack of accountability that it's repeatedly broken or ignored

and it is difficult for parents to enforce it. And this doesn't make it any easier. You're taking a lot of children out of EAC plans onto ISPs and yes, schools will have a legal duty to provide them, but they currently have a legal duty to use their best endeavours. so it's not very different. And the only enforcement for that is a complaint to the school. And we don't know what part the complaint panel has,

how long that will take. It's not going to be effective. That's what I was trying to get to with the Minister for School Standards, because going to tribunal was the way that people did it previously to fight for an EHC plan. So do you think that's gone now? Well, for ISPs, and it's a worry because take the inclusion basis. Currently, if you feel your child needs to be in one, you will aim to get that provision

written into an EHCP and it will become enforceable. As I understand it, that you might be in one through an EHCP, but otherwise it's a decision of the schools. And what happens if you disagree with the school's decision? you know, you are trotting off to this complaints panel, which is, you know, very nebulous. Yeah, which also the issue of time, which I want to underline again,

because we might talk about two or three years, for example, of course, for a child in education, that is a significant part of their educational years. Yeah. That could be in limbo. When it comes to asking for an assessment for an EHCP, parents are worried that they will lose the right to even go to tribunal,

if a school refuses to do that. Well, as I read the white paper, and it's all very new to us, I believe the idea is that you can go to the tribunal if you are refused an assessment. I was slightly surprised the minister was suggesting you could get an assessment as of right because that doesn't seem to be what it's saying.

Okay, we shall look into that a little bit further. We do have send in the spotlight as well that we will continue these conversations today. If you want to get in touch, it's 84844 on the text. And I wanted to come to these categories. Shorten to T and TP at the moment. It's targeted and targeted plus. So we've individual support plans.

We've targeted. We've targeted plus. And then specialist support packages. Targeted and targeted plus. Good idea? Well, it's sort of a revival of what we had under the old system of school action and action plus. And yes, it gives some sort of structure.

I was glad to hear the ministers say that you don't have to go through those before you can access an assessment. So in principle it seems fine. It will depend on funding everything else. Let me turn to Kate for just a moment. How would the government make the distinction between, excuse me, Kate, let me turn to you, Kate McGuff, our education reporter. What is the distinction that?

that the government are making between targeted and targeted plus. So the way they've laid it out in the consultation is that targeted needs will be children with commonly occurring needs and they'll get things like small group interventions. It'll be kind of reasonable adjustments like taking time out. Things like that are going to lunch early, you know, maybe small group interventions. That type of thing can be in a targeted plan. Targeted plus will be more about the input from those specialists. so the speech and language therapies, the experts at hand that the money is,

the government is putting money into. So the targeted plus will be kind of having more access to these inclusion bases and input from specialists essentially. And it was also mentioned that on the targeted plus plan, you could have a short-term placement at a special school temporarily if needed. That was one of the options. So yeah, that seems to be the main difference. Okay.

And I want to bring in Carri Gets. grant here, as I mentioned, a parent who has children with send. EHCPs, you were thinking about them. I know in the run-up to this, Carrie, good to have you back with us. They're not being scrapped. Are you feeling reassured? No, I'm not feeling reassured. I think that the problem that we have at the moment is that let's just say 40% of people

that have EHCPs are autistics. So we've got to look at children with fluctuating capacity. So with fluctuating capacity means one day can be good, another day might not be good. So we've got to wait for that child to become a complex need child. And the way that they become a complex need child is by not having their needs met. So by the time they get the EHCP, they will probably be self-harming suicide, ideation, disordered eating psychosis, all of those things that we see so commonly among the 300 families that I work with. They get that help.

Eventually they get the EHCP, but our children are literally dying in the waiting. That could be years before you work your way through targeted, targeted plus specialties. I'm not saying they work in that kind of staircase way, but by the time you become complex, and also we're asking for our parents to work with schools. And we know that schools sometimes are absolutely brilliant, but we also know that they can be really dreadful. I'm going to read you a little bit of an email. I won't say who it was from. It was from the head teacher to the Senko. I won't say what school of the name, but it says to the Senko, now stand well back and watch the fireworks.

You do not have to reply to all of her emails. And this was written about me. And to be honest, I was really pleased to get this email mistakenly because it actually showed me the disdain with which I was treated. And so many parents experienced this. You're asking us to navigate the school system, negotiate with the schools even more, as Katie said earlier. Now we're really on the front line with the school.

If they're not going to get it, how are we going to have our children's voices heard? They'll end up out of school. A couple of things there. The Senco, that's the Sen Coordinator. That's a crucial person within the system. You talk there about not trusting the schools. I know there was also many parents had issues

with the local authorities, for example. Some might have thought it's a more straightforward way and you do not have to go through every layer as the school standards minister, Georgia Gold, was saying you might, fast track was for another aspect she was talking about, but that you may be able to go straight to an assessment for an EHCP. Interesting.

This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life and all the bizarre ways

people are using the internet listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Let me keep speaking with some more of our members that are here. We have Louise Gitton's chair of the local government association. So this is interesting Louise.

Schools, as Carrie has mentioned there, will be taking more of the responsibility when it comes to implementing some of these issues. The white paper is calling time. on local authorities in many ways. And backing many of the parents who say local authorities fail their children. Is there something in this document that will help local authorities do what they are supposed to do better? Yeah, thank you very much.

It's been a really interesting conversation so far. And I think what we've heard is that there is a system that's broken. It's an adversarial system where everybody is sort of fighting with each other. And I think what we need to ensure is that this new inclusive way of working is making sure that children, young people and their families' needs are actually being met. And it's going to mean that the schools, the NHS, local authorities are going to have to start working together in the interests of parents and the children and their families.

And so far this hasn't been happening. A caveat on that, there are some really good examples in the consultation document of where systems have been able to come together. But what I've seen from the White Paper so far is that we are going to have to work together. We will have that convening power to work with our partners, to ensure that our local systems are meeting the needs of our families and young people.

And, you know, hearing that example from Carrie is heartbreaking. And we need to sort of move forward from that and put that pass behind us. Well, if people can, I suppose, would be my question there and not one that you can answer. But I want to go to some of the specifics within the document. Experts at hand is another phrase that we are learning. These are specialist professionals. It could be occupational therapy. It could be speech and language.

could be an educational psychologist. How will those pools of specialists actually work? So we need to work with government to understand the detail before that. But one of the things we have called for as part of the reforms to the system is that early intervention and prevention, we know from work in other areas

that we do in local government around children in care, that early intervention and prevention really does make a difference. So having those experts at hand, which are those, as you rightly described, a specialist group of people that can work from a very early stage. I mean, I think one of your contributors mentioned about Best Start in Life family centres. They're rolling out around the country.

And Shawstar actually worked with children and their families at a very early age in the past. And because Shaw Starts are being closed across the country, that support hasn't been there. So we welcome that investment. into early intervention and prevention. Are there enough trained experts? I don't know the answer to that.

I think. I don't know the answer to that. But, you know, I think. So a few years ago, we did have an issue with the amount of educational psychologists in the system. And there was fast track training so that people could be trained. So if there isn't now, I think we need to work together so that by 2029, we've got a system that can work for everybody. I see some heads nodding no around this table. I have a number of guests that are within the send system saying that they are not.

We will continue to follow that track of conversation as well. I want to bring in Raman Deep to us here, a parent who has a son with complex needs, who has an EHCP. How are you feeling about the conversations around that EHCPs will be limited to children and young people with complex needs? and I use that term as has been used in the document, hard to know exactly what that might mean. Yeah, I think that's my biggest concern. We're looking at putting children into boxes yet again and categorising them. And if you're a parent of a child with any kind of complex needs,

we know that those needs are very much individual. And I spent a lot of time yesterday looking through those, I think there are seven categories. And actually my son could fit pretty much into all of them. Really? There's something in all of them. So for me, I would then need to understand, well, what exactly will his EHCP look like based on that? Because I think that's a huge concern.

We have these ISPs and SSPs, but how much of that is going to feed into that actual legal document? that's my biggest concern, I think. I also have concerns about the tribunal process where there's going to be a greater shift towards local authorities being able to name a school. And if you were to go to tribunal, they then actually can't name an alternative provision. They will send it back to the local authority and say,

well, you have to rename a different school. So I think that's taking away some of the legal provisions that are in place for parents. Right, and as we were hearing there, it's back to the schools, and that could be problematic. I suppose you're thinking about time. You've got a little guy, right?

He's only, what age is he? Six? Oh, my son's actually 18 now. Your son? He's had his EHCP since he was four years old. Since he was four years old. And so, yeah, but it can go then, of course, to 25. Yes, excuse me, I was thinking about him when he was little.

I remember you telling me a story about him. on the bus one time but indeed so this send system continues until the age of 25 so it is children and young people that we are talking about

thanks for all your messages that are coming in here's one Donna she says the big question here is what makes everyone think that local authorities will follow the new rules

of the white paper they don't follow the current ones another one here what does it all mean for child currently in year 6 who has an EHCP who's waiting placement for secondary in a specialist setting, but no choice has been made.

I'm concerned that this will increase local authority delay tactics even more. Also in this context, what does complex mean? That's Kat, Mum to a Sun with ASD, with a PDA profile, who is not able to access mainstream education. I want to move on as well. Thanks for all your messages coming in. 84844. If you'd like to get in touch, you're listening to Women's Hour Live in collaboration with Send in the Spotlight podcast

as we explore the impact of the government's new send reforms in England. Right, mainstream inclusion, IB, inclusion-based. We are hearing some of these terms. I want to bring back in Kate McGoff, our education reporter in just a moment. But I'm going to begin with Margaret. You've mentioned you're concerned about whether there will be the support available to try and implement in the timescale that has been proposed. Yeah. I think there's an enormous ask of schools here and we want to be able to rise to that challenge.

But my concern is that the anxiety schools have a lot of the time is the guilt in not being able to meet need. That's what we're seeing in recent research on retention of teachers that they're actually, you know, they're not worried about the complexity of need in front of them. They're worried about, am I doing the best by this child? and can we personalise that process of support? So will these inclusion bases that Kate's going to talk about now, will they be sufficiently staffed? That will be our question. We welcome these flexibilities.

We really applaud the government for looking at the flex in the system and setting us up to offer local provision for local children. I think that's really, really important. But will we be able to have the capital build and the staffing particularly to really resource these provisions effectively so that the children can come in and out and will have TA's support staff to move with them from the base and into the classroom. These are questions that school leaders are going to be asking this week.

And that's what good looks like to you, that kind of flexibility in children being able to move and having the people around them, the adults around them, to enable them. Absolutely. And we've got some fantastic. examples out there and they're included in the paper so we welcome that but it's going to take a significant shift in the way in which schools are structured and I think it's going to take a

significant shift in the way education is structured some of your parents have mentioned attendance behavior assessment you know the exams that children can sit all these things have to shift alongside the send agenda if children are really going to have their needs met in mainstream schools. So we're really ambitious for that with this government to make that change. Yvonne was in touch just on inclusion. She says, Sir Kier's comment, you can't have high standards if you don't have inclusion, is absolutely incorrect. I invite Sir Kier to spend a day in a mainstream year one classroom watching firsthand how teachers attempt to stretch bright children while at the same time dealing with children who have meltdowns and sensory needs. Does Serckear and

his hapless education secretary have any idea of the truth of what goes on in our schools? And Of course, there can be many very bright children with send as well. But keep them coming. 8444 if you'd like to get in touch. Kate McGough, let me turn to you, education reporter. Can you briefly tell us about how the government's big idea will work in practice? For mainstream inclusion, yes. So essentially they're going to invest nearly to £4 billion over the next three years. That's extra money and that is going to go into a couple of big pots in particular.

where one will be 1.6 billion pounds where that will go for all making all mainstream schools, all early years settings and colleges more inclusive. So that will be schools can access that money more quickly for things like funding interventions, small group language support. The other big part of the pot is around building these expert panels and that money will go to councils and the NHS to create those banks of send specialists that schools can draw on. But interestingly, it kind of sits alongside other things that have been announced around mainstream inclusion. We've already heard about, you know, 3.7 billion pounds of capital funding to create all of these inclusion hubs and 60,000 specialist places.

And there will be a new duty on schools to produce an inclusion strategy where they have to set out what they'll provide across the different levels of support. And schools will be expected to form local groups and collaborate, you know, pull some funding and share resources. And obviously, of course, we've also got Ofsted judging schools on inclusion now. and since November. As one of the criteria. Right, I can see that the time is ticking. We've so much to talk about. I want to go quickly to some of my guests just for a reaction.

Marcia, you have a child with special needs in mainstream education. Can you see this new model working better than the current offer? No, I'll be very honest with you. It's a no. Yeah, I was quite concerned. My daughter currently, she's eight years old. she is all dhd she has a fend passport which is um quite similar to um the isps and that states provision states need but it's not necessarily legally enforceable actually and what oftentimes happens is

when the school is stretched and they're at capacity the provision that she's given that she needs and that she heavily relies on is taken out from underneath her because they are unable to offer it to all the same children um that's a problem for me because what's my legal recourse to support when i'm not okay with the provision that's being given or taken away to my child in terms of ISPs. I can't. I mean, she did mention that the tribunal is still there, but it's after, from what I understand, having to go through these layers of support. And that, to me, it just sounds a bit more like, again, similar to mediation, another process that is going to take time, potentially delay the support that my child needs. And then eventually, I don't know if

that means she'll be given the support she needs. It just feels like time wasting. And what send families and send children don't need right now is more time wasted. Marsha from Black Sam Mammas, I want to turn back to Katie Nellis, who is 18, has spoken to us many times on this program about these issues. It is a consultation, Katie. What are you going to be writing in those boxes? I probably won't be writing the boxes they provide

because I don't think they go far enough. They don't give me the depth I need to really expand and critique this white paper. I don't think this white paper is inclusive at all. It feels like it's doing the opposite. it to me. It feels like it's trying to shape young people to fit schools, not shaping schools to fit young people, which is such a big problem. And they talk about stretching young people a lot. And there's only so much stretch young people can take before we snap. I don't see this being

truly inclusive. There isn't the budget to be truly inclusive. Lots of this money when it's split between all the settings. It's not even going to hire one new Senko, and Senko's currently are so stretched. And I'm just really scared for all the future young people who are coming through this system and they're not going to have their needs met properly because their teachers won't be properly trained. My teachers never spotted it and they wouldn't even with more training because CAMs didn't spot it. Teachers aren't psychiatrists. And this is a question I think that Margaret is thinking about as well and that the teachers are concerned that they won't be able to serve other children, Katie, whether it's when you were in school or somebody like you was in school

or indeed the children that are there now. As we've been speaking, we have another guest who has made her way into the studio and it is the person who's going to be responsible for holding the government to account over this who has oversight to the new reforms. They'll fall under the remit of the Children's Commissioner for England, Dame Rachel DeSouza. Good morning.

Morning. Do you need to correct me? Yeah, I was just going to be really clear. I think what we were hearing this morning from the minister is that there's going to be a senior appointment who's going to have oversight for these reforms. I'll have. I am mentioned in the white paper.

I want to be there. I, like I do for all children, you know, all children of different backgrounds, I will be holding the government to account on them and I will be able to use my powers to do that. I won't be setting up the system and running the system. I will be doing what a children's commissioner does, which is hearing from children,

looking at data, providing challenge, really tough challenge. No, I understand that you're not implementing. it in any way, but you are scrutinising it and holding to account in that regard. What do you think about these reforms that you've seen so far? Okay, so look, we've heard really, you know, heard it beautifully from young people and from parents today about the current system, been failing children. And I've heard that time and time again.

One of the most powerful things I heard when I came into roll first and did a survey of, half a million children, over 100,000 children with special educational needs, additional needs. And they told me when their needs were met in school, they were, in fact, happier than the rest of the cohort. But a huge amount of the children that stopped attending school during and after lockdown were children with special educational needs who just gave up. And I think that tells you everything. So there's how the children are feeling and how the adults were feeling, which was, we're fighting, we're fighting a system. My research was showing, you know,

I was reading these EHCPs and looking at completely inconsistency across the country. You know, I was looking at the system thinking it was adversarial, it wasn't great. So Katie and I actually, she's one of my, Katie and this is one of my young ambassadors. We've looked at, literally been to Canada, looked at systems all around the world

to try to find what would a good system be. So what do I think about these reforms? I think they're moving in the right direction. We need a system that asks children and families, how can I help you rather than what's wrong with you? So the idea of early response, health, education, social care, working together to work for children is the right thing. Not medicalising children unnecessarily,

not saying you have to wait three years to get in the HCP, to unlock support. You're getting that support in early is all good stuff. Let me ask you, because we have limited time, What power will you have if you aren't convinced that sufficient progress has been made in time? I will have the power of sunlight, which is the power to show exactly what's going on. So I have data powers. I can get any data held on children without having to use an FOI.

I can enter anywhere. And most powerfully, I talk to children and to families. We do that already. We've done it with the old send system. I will absolutely be looking at these changes and making sure there is. nowhere to hide, it has to be better. But do not underestimate, do not underestimate how difficult and how long this change will take. This is not something where you can just flip a switch. I was a head teacher for 20 years. The idea of schools been totally inclusive and doing all of

this doesn't happen overnight. We've got to build a system, which is why listening to children and families and protecting them and protecting their rights now is so important. A couple more for you. You're going to shine a spotlight or bring sunlight to it. But calling people, places out that aren't performing in the way that they should, do you intend to do that publicly, privately? Will you report to government or elsewhere? So all of my reports are always put on my website. I absolutely report to government,

to bright prime ministers, deputy prime ministers, ministers to meet with me. I have a right to reply from them. So absolutely I will be. And I've done it. You can see in our work on, for example, children in prisons, for example, which is completely different thing. Our children in care, we're very, very, what's the word? You know, we don't hide.

Yeah. So you're very much out there and you've often come on. But, you know, the fact that you mentioned some of those reports, for example, in your role as children's commissioner, you have a statutory duty to protect children and the experiences of all children, whether they're facing poverty or abuse of ill health. Do you have the capacity to take on another huge job

and do it effectively? Are you daunted? Yeah, well, look, if we don't have the capacity, we'll be asking for extra. And certainly that we've got conversations going on with the department now to say what we will need to do this well and do this properly,

because there is no way I would do it unless it was done properly. And, you know, there is, going to be a huge amount of voice experience and data that's going to need to be collected consistently to make sure that we can make change. But we do make change. And we have, you know, we have both, and nothing is more important than this. This is massively important. Do you think it will happen? Do you think the proposal, proposals will go through? I think there is an opportunity for modifications. I mean, do you think it will cost too much

to deliver properly? Oh, it costs too much to deliver properly. I think it's hugely ambitious. It's got to work. So we've got to make sure that government backs it financially. And again, that's where I will be saying this needs funding. And if it's not working, exposing it. You'll come back and tell us how it's going? I will do. Thank you very much. Dame Rachel DeSuzza, the children's commissioner. I want to thank all my guests on today's program and let you know that the conversation on Send Support and Provision will continue here on Women's Hour in the coming weeks and months. Also, on our podcast and in the spotlight. You just have to search on BBC sounds where you can catch up with all of our conversations from EHCPs to school transport and everything

in between. We also have a special episode coming up on specialist school provision, but that is all from us for today. Tomorrow, we'll hear the first results of a study from Exeter University, which paints a concerning picture of the well-being of women in farming across the UK. We do hope you'll join us then at 10. That's all for today's women's hour. Join us again next time. I'm Noel Titheridge and for BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World, this is impulsive. What happens when someone's personality changes completely? It was completely out of character. Never done it before. Never done it since. And it's because of a prescription drug.

I asked myself, why would you do such a thing? What were you thinking? I've been uncovering the shocking side effects linked to medications called dopamine agonis. For BBC Radio 4, from Shadow World, this is Impulsive. Subscribe to Shadow World, Impulsive, now on BBC Sounds. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology's actually. doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.