Woman's Hour - Sex education in schools

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

Earlier this month, the Conservative MP Miriam Cates said in the House of Commons that children were being exposed to 'graphic' and 'age inappropriate' material during their sex education classes. The Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has decided to bring forward a planned review of the Department for Education’s Relationships and Sex Education guidance in England. To shed light on what is being taught in schools, and what this review may cover, Nuala McGovern speaks to a range of stakeholders, including headteacher and President of the Association of School and College leaders Evelyn Forde, director of the Sex Education Forum Lucy Emmerson, academic Dr Sophie King-Hill, and Tanya Carter from the Safe Schools Alliance. We also hear from parents and listeners including young people themselves.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. We have a special programme today for you that centres on relationships and sex education in schools in England. We're going to devote the next hour to the issues raised by RSE and hear from people who've thought deeply about what is needed now for children in schools. Our correspondent will be with us in just a moment

to explain how we got to this point of an impending review of RSE for England. That's by the government. And we'll also discuss a report by the Conservative MP, Miriam Cates, who said that children are being taught graphic and inappropriate material. We're going to delve into how RSE is taught, looking at what the guidance is, particularly in a world where online safety and pornography needs to be addressed. Who is in the classroom with your child imparting the information? And also, what training have they been given? We're going to hear from parents about what they believe is right or wrong with the teaching as it stands.

And how do you know also what children want from RSC? Well, if you want to get in touch, and I think many of you will, we'd love to hear from you, particularly if you've been taught any of this recently and want to give your view,

you can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. Maybe you'd like to send a WhatsApp message or a voice note. For that, the number is 03700100444. Again, the text 84844. But let us begin, because as I mentioned earlier this month, the Conservative MP Miriam Kate said in the House of Commons that children were being exposed to graphic and age-inappropriate material

during their sex education classes. The Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, he has decided to bring forward a review of the Department of Education's Relationships and Sex Education Guidance in England, called RSE, as you'll hear me refer to it. And joining me now is the BBC's Sean Dilley. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Sean. Remind us exactly, what did Miriam Kate say?

Well, as you say, this relates to Prime Minister's questions when the Conservative MP for Keeney, Stone and Stockbridge asked Rishi Sunak a question that we have to warn you now, some of the language itself is quite graphic but she said lessons on oral sex how to choke your partner safely and 72 genders this is what passes for relationships and sex education in British schools she said and she criticized the use of outside organizations which she says work to undermine parents essentially this is a story, Anjali,

about what is meant by the term age appropriate. Age appropriate, that's going to come up again and again, I feel, during the next hour. But what was her evidence that this is widespread? Well, to understand this, outside PMQ, she's one of 50 Conservative MPs who's authored a letter to the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, and they've been calling for an independent

inquiry into RSE and sex education in schools. Now, she commissioned a report into sex education and relationships as part of a new group, a new organisation, called New Social Covenants. It's a 92-page report,

and that report concludes that some schools, in their opinion, are not fulfilling their duty of political impartiality when it comes to reflecting beliefs in this area. Now, we'll hear a little bit later from the unions on that because they would obviously take a different point. So whether they're talking about gender identity or sex positivity, that term comes up again and again. But if you could, in broad brushstrokes, really tell us what schools are expected to teach children about sex

at the moment. There's quite a lot of discretion and no specific qualification as far as looking at the rules in England for uh for teachers now for primary schools in england people should really should learn what they call about relationship education they should look at those who care for them they should learn about respectful relationship as well as being safe online now by the time secondary school pupils are learning then in england they should also learn about families. They should learn about respectful relationship, including relationships online. But critically, they then start to look at intimate relationships. Right. So that is all coming up. And of course,

you mentioned they're online and that has been a can of worms, I think, when it comes to sex education and a lot of contentious issues around it. Do we have a sense, Sean, of how many schools deliver this subject in-house and how many outsource it to specialist or SE organisations? Briefly, no, because as we will hear later in Women's Hour, there are parents who've been declined information based on commercial sensitivities. Schools have an awful lot of discretion at the moment. See, one of the key issues is whether material is transparent and published. Again, we'll talk about that a little bit later. But at the moment, it's just not something that parents have access to see. Okay, so that we don't have any firm figures on, but it is, or I see, a statutory part of the national curriculum. How much freedom do schools have within that?

They have complete freedom to interpret. Again, the whole heart of this story is what is meant by age appropriate and those who are naysayers, what is meant by age inappropriate? Now, it is part of the curriculum and it has been for a couple of years now that this RSE should be taught. But particularly when we get into, say, primary schools, there's no particular expectation as to what should and shouldn't be included there. But certainly in terms of biology, teachers should explain in terms of how a baby is conceived and life cycles. And then, of course, the question about what is age appropriate. And if parents want to, can they remove their children from aspects of it? Yes. Just a reminder, for the most part here, we're talking about the education system in England. Primary school parents can withdraw their child from primary school lessons,

which address sex education. Those that do not sit, of course, within the relation sex education curriculum. Now, secondary parents can ask to withdraw their child from parts or all of the sex education taught as part of RSE. But parents cannot withdraw their child from sex education taught in science at primary or secondary level. What has some of the reaction been to the Miriam Cates report and also this review that the prime minister has announced? It's been pretty robust. I mean, as you can imagine, there are various people welcoming it. The union's less happy in some regards. Jeff Barton, the general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders and a former head teacher, said the vast majority of schools are incredibly cautious and sensible about the teaching of RSE. He said we disagree with the sweeping generalisation and, to quote, he says, inflammatory rhetoric from Miriam Cates in the Commons.

He's welcomed the review, though, and he says that it's about supporting teachers. He's not the only union, obviously, to take issue with this one. Many are insisting that the statutory guidance is being followed. But again, there's just an awful lot of wriggle room at the moment. So, and of course, that room is what maybe has also has people arguing about it. This, with Miriam Cates, is referring to OrSE in English schools, as we've referred to. How is it around the country? Well, at the moment, the picture, obviously, we've looked very much at the situation in England. In Wales, RSE is a mandatory part of the new curriculum for all primary and some secondary school children. It was introduced in September 2022.

Previously, secondary school children had to be offered sex education, but parents could opt out of. In Wales, obviously, there's that mandatory section. In Scotland, however, at the moment, bear with me, I have a screen reader in front of me. I'm just going to let some light in on the magic. I'm using a screen reader and it's slightly jumped. In Scotland, there is, however, sex education parenting curriculum and in Northern Ireland practice has been evaluated for what they call post-primary school learning as a result of that there's been commissioning of guidance for teachers which appears to be one of the central points here of course yes and indeed guidance that word is brought up also again and again

um the PM the Prime Minister brought forward this review. Do we know exactly what aspects it's going to look at? I think it would be not too speculative to say that the first question is what is meant by age appropriate materials? Should parents have a greater say and an understanding as to what's published and otherwise, and indeed, as other recommendations and other reports have made is whether that material should be published in the first place. But I think that the first thing the report's going to do is to understand what is the current picture, what is the framework. It is, of course, we should say, fairly recent

in terms of statutory requirements and the curriculum. And teachers have to do an awful lot to get their heads around, as do parents here. And it is something, though, I know it's brought forward. It was something the government was going to do anyway. Yes. In a word, yes. Because the review had been brought forward. There would normally be every three years a review of the situation.

And there was due to be one in the autumn. I'm just seeing so many comments are coming in, Sean, as I'm speaking to you. 84844, RSE should not be in schools. My children learn from us in books. Not a government-trained teacher. They're trained to teach for jobs and exam passing and do not work with families. Another, when I was in school,

sex education was taught as a biology lesson as part of the science curriculum. That was it. What's wrong with that? We all remember that, don't we? Of course, when you're growing up, it was very kind of, there was no consistency kind of growing up.

So hopefully the government, I guess, from their point of view, will be able to establish what's happening now. And then that debate will continue with the varying points of view that there are. Just briefly, the Children's Commissioner, Dame Rachel D'Souza, she's in the news today with her report on child strip searches, was asked by the Secretary of State for Education last year to look at children's views of RSE and the quality of teaching. Earlier this month, she put out a report that recommended a safeguarding first approach.

Can you tell us briefly a little bit more about that? Yes, this is the big ask survey of English students. She said when asked, children are very clear how highly they value being taught life skills, about finances and about healthy relationships in a way that is sensitive and age appropriate again it's that term isn't it age appropriate as she says put simply uh children want their education to prepare them for life now she made eight recommendations we won't go through them all the key one is that safeguarding should be at the heart of everything so she's recommending that there'd be a designated safeguarding leads to curate some of this content, that they should be this person the first port of call when parents have concerns.

Schools, she said, should publish their policies as well as the materials online to work proactively with parents and that there should be better training for teachers. Thanks so much, Sean. I should say we did invite the Secretary of State for Education Gillian Keegan or indeed any education minister on to talk about this but no one was available. We also asked Miriam Cates or a representative of her new organisation that you mentioned Sean, the new Social Covenant unit to appear on the programme but they were not available either

to take part. I just want to read, I said a lot of people are getting in touch with various emails and texts. Let me see another couple coming in. Sex education experts should be teaching this in schools. It can be embarrassing for teachers who have had one relationship with pupils to then talk about sensitive subjects. That coming in from Josephine.

Another, my granddaughter who's 14, had a 70 minute lesson last week with her mixed class on erogenous zones, choking and sexual pleasure. How is this needed? This is not about healthy relationships or consent. The schools have outsourced this and parents were not aware of the subject matter. We're horrified. Thank you. 84844. Please do get in touch. Also, just

to let you know, the Department of Education spokesperson, what they are saying is that she has been very clear and is very concerned about reports of inappropriate materials being used to teach relationships in sex education and has brought forward a review, as we've been hearing, of the curriculum as a result. Schools must be sure all content they use is factual

and age-appropriate and should engage with parents so they're aware of what their children are being taught. We are clear that parents have a right to view teaching materials and copyright law does not prevent a parent from viewing external resources. So just to follow up a little on what we were hearing. Let us move on now because we're going to go through various parts of RSE and I want to talk now about how it's taught. It comes up again and again. We can speak to a serving head teacher who's also president of the teaching union of the Association of School and College Leaders, Evelyn Ford.

Evelyn, welcome. Well, hello. Thank you for having me. Good to have you with us. You head up Coptall Secondary School in London. Can you just remind us what secondary schools should be teaching as you understand it within the curriculum? Yeah, of course. And just kind of building on what your reporter was referring to. And I think that, you know, nobody will disagree that in this ever changing, and I think complex and fragile world that we live in, that what we need our children to understand is to be able to understand and embrace the challenges of creating a happy and successful adult life. And based on that, you know, my view and most, you know, school leaders is that they need the knowledge that is going to enable them to make those informed decisions about their wellbeing, health and relationships, and to build their self-efficacy. What they will learn

will support them to develop the resilience that is needed and to know when and how to ask for help. As has already been said, schools are free to determine how to deliver the content in the guidance, but it's within the context of a broad and balanced curriculum. So in a very carefully sequenced way. So what we do here at Cocteau, so I'll just give you an example. Year sevens who join us, we have built a curriculum that goes term by term and then is layered year by year. So for example in year seven term one students will learn about healthy relationships, in term two they'll learn about family and marriage including forced marriage and then they'll move on to respectful relationships and friendships in term three.

This is then ribboned through the curriculum across all year groups so that for example when that young person gets to year nine they'll build on those respectful relationships through the lens of privacy and boundaries and consent online but essentially what students must cover are these broad themes on families respectful relationships media, media, online, being safe, intimate sexual relationships, including sexual health. And then within that, you really get under the skin of the content. And for example, as I've already said, we will talk through about FGM, consent, and really getting under the skin of those brings up so many issues. I'm wondering how much training do teachers get? And is it a, I hesitate to use the word appropriate,

but is it enough for what they're being required to do? I think that's a really good question. So in a school, just to kind of give you the context, so I'm a head teacher, but I trained as a history teacher, right? So all our teachers will train in their subject areas. And then what we do here at my school, like many other schools up and down the country, we will dedicate that one hour to teach PSHE. But we don't have specialist teachers. So as a history teacher, as a maths teacher, as a geography teacher, I would be given the resources.

We would have dedicated professional development time just to look at those resources. But we are not we don't have that specific training that I believe is required. And because everything is changing so quickly, you know, what's happening in social media, online, all those things that our young people are being faced with. As a classroom teacher, we are given the resources. Obviously, we do our belt and braces and we, you know, we make sure that they are fit for purpose. But one thing I would say is that we do need some specific training and comes with funding from the government. Oh, well, I'm about to ask, why don't you have specialist training?

Because I'm thinking a teacher could easily be out of their depth teaching some of these topics. And you'd be absolutely right. And it is because there is a lack of funding to make sure that we have those trained professionals who can come in and deliver those topics. Because the government would talk about an allocation of £6 million for funding for implementation of statutory or SHE and it was based on the estimate demand for training. an allocation of £6 million for funding for implementation of statutory S or SHE, and it was based on the estimate demand for training.

They say the funding they've delivered, training through grants to teaching schools, funding was demand led, and their investment to date was over £3 million. They covered the support package for schools, and that follows consultation, they say, with teachers about what they need. I mean, do you recommend using outside companies then as part of the training? I think on occasion that there is a need for that, you know, so for example, we might use Brooke who will come in and do some, do some, deliver to some of our year nines and our year tens. But I just want to go back to that point you made about the funding and what the government have done. And actually, if you go on their website,

you will see a plethora of PowerPoints that teachers are directed to and, of course, some links. But actually, in this ever-changing world, I fully believe that what we need in schools is bespoke funding for the training for those practitioners to deliver those lessons. Well, let's hear from a teacher that is dealing with this right now. I am a secondary school teacher and teach PSHCE and support workshops on healthy relationships, personal boundaries and consent, which in my view is vital. During my career, students have disclosed experiences of

being asked to send naked photos of themselves as young as age 11, being sent inappropriate photos and explicit websites. Students are wolf-wistled on their way to school and experience other forms of harassment. We also know that children as young as eight are learning about sex via pornographic websites. These experiences are real and students desperately need support in navigating these awful experiences. It's not about indoctrinating them or teaching them inappropriate things. It's about building awareness and giving clear lines on what is right and wrong. Teachers as well as parents have a duty to protect our young people. So that was somebody who got in touch with the programme but voiced up

by one of our producers. But it brings up a number of issues there, doesn't it, Evelyn? And I'm wondering, as president of the Association of Schools and College Leaders, do you think the issue is being politicised? Sorry, I was on mute then. I can tell by your face as I look at you on the screen. Do you know what?

I really think it is. And you made the point that actually the review for the guidance was due anyway. So statutory guidance 2019 made it clear that the review would happen every three years. And a blog by the DfE published just a few days before PMQs said that a consultation on the review will begin later this year. So for us, you know, in the association, this seems very close, if not identical to the original timetable. You know, our view at our school is around, you know, the wider point about age-appropriate extreme sexualisation and inaccurate lessons that Miss Cates kind of refers to is not something that we've seen. At all?

No, it's not something that we believe most teachers and leaders recognise. But it must be tricky with children that are all at a different level of maturity or maybe even sexual activity, for example, to try and decide what is the correct way to be teaching some of these topics that you've brought up? Yeah, you know, I don't disagree that it can be very sensitive and it can be very, very tricky.

But as with all curriculum delivery, you know, as a school, it is our responsibility to make sure that what is happening in those lessons is as per the curriculum guidelines and the guidance that is there. But for us as an organisation, for me as a headteacher, what Miss Cates has said in her report is not something that we've seen. And we believe that actually it's really about criticisms of organisations that provide RSE resources rather than the evidence that's actually been seen in schools. Will you lead me to my next guest, RSE resources rather than the evidence that's actually been seen in schools. Well, you lead me to my next guest, which is Lucy Emerson, director of the Sex Education Forum, a charity which represents relationships and sex education organisations in England. We come back to that term again, RSE. What do you think, Lucy, the school's responsibilities are and what are the responsibilities of the RSE organisations? Well, schools are responsible for children and young people's safety, for providing a broad and balanced curriculum. And just as others have said, that needs to include relationships and sex education. You know, we welcome the review because it's going to put some monitoring on what's

happening in schools. Those responsibilities are a big responsibility for schools to make sure they're covering a broad and comprehensive subject, which we know is underpinned by research evidence that says when we do this well, when teachers are trained, when they have the support they need, it will result in healthier, happier children and young people now and in their future. But do you believe the RSE providers is the solution for a lack of

teacher training that was being outlined by Evelyn, for example? To some extent, external providers are making up for the lack of teacher training that's been provided. It was sorely lacking when government made RSHE mandatory. There was promised investment. It wasn't rolled out. And there are some schools that are doing brilliantly, some teachers that have accessed training and others that are really floundering. They must follow through. Government must follow through on that training. Otherwise, we really won't get to a point where every young person is getting good quality relationships and sex education. What research have you conducted into how RSE has been taught across the board? Sex Education Forum regularly speaks to young people. We commissioned an independent survey of over a thousand young people. And we were shocked, really, because many of the mandatory topics are not yet being covered adequately.

So even things like healthy relationships, how to tell if a relationship is healthy online or offline, how to access local sexual health services. In over 50% of cases, these were not being covered adequately in secondary school. So there's a long way to go to cover the topics that government have rightly set out as things that every young person needs to know. In addition to the research from young people, we are in touch with academics, we summarise research evidence, the same research evidence that the government built its RSHE guidance on, which there is massive support from from across a political spectrum. So that research is so solid. And what we're not yet doing is

putting it fully into practice through good quality RSE with the kind of calibre of training that that should go hand in hand with that. So you think what is there is not at all times fit for purpose? It isn't at all times fit for purpose because of the lack of training. Teachers are doing the best they can under the circumstances. In some cases, the curriculum time hasn't been allocated for this. In some cases, teachers are leaning on perhaps a video resource because they haven't got the confidence to open up discussions with young people, which are the kind of forums that young

people want to hear about each other's views and also get obviously correct facts about their health, their bodies, the law. It's an exciting topic to teach, but teachers do need that support to underpin it. And what about though the issue of impartiality? When an RSE provider comes to a school, are they always giving all the views that are out there when it comes to sex and relationships, for example? Any external provider that a school's working with needs to be vetted. The school needs to be managing that relationship, looking at their values and principles, deciding if it's going to add value to their curriculum, or is it something they're better providing themselves? So those conversations need to take place to manage that relationship. But sometimes that external provider

will add value. It's great to hear from an external speaker who can tell you more tell young people more about the services available to them and give different perspectives but the school still has to manage that impartiality to make sure a range of views are heard and that teachers as well as well are not putting forward a view of their own it's creating that forum for young people. But I suppose my question would be with the providers that are really bringing that information, would they always be beholden to impartiality?

The school is beholden to impartiality and they have to manage the relationship with any provider that's coming in. So it's not you feel the responsibility of the provider to be impartial? Well, it's both of them to work together, isn't it, to meet the young people's needs. And if the school has decided to invite in a provider, they need to ensure that it's an appropriate contribution to the curriculum. And of course, external organisations are regulated in their own way,

whether they're a charity or a business, and need to be transparent about their values and principles. Putting safeguarding first, of course, as the school will be doing as well. Let me bring Evelyn back in on this. I mean, is that something you've come up against? Can you always ensure impartiality or representing all the views that may be out there from the various families that these children come from you know um we try very very hard and it's a bit like what what has just been said we try very hard to vet any organization that would come in we would also um you know we do the due diligence and we've seen where they had worked before. And whenever we do have an outside provider come in, we would always have a member of our team, our staff in the classroom as well. So there's an opportunity for us as school leaders and staff in school to actually hear what is being said. We would do our utmost to make sure that it's appropriate.

Is there a clash, though? and I bring up the impartiality because it's something that parents often bring up, but is there a clash between the RSE organisations, charities, companies, commercial property of their lessons, and this is for you, Lucy, or their lesson plans or their resources, and the parents wanting to see them? Because this is something I've come up against again and again as I research this, that parents want full transparency and to see what their kids are seeing.

I'm glad you've brought up parents because they're such an important stakeholder in this. They must be a partnership with schools to meet children and young people's needs. Parents want the best for their children. They want that safety net at school. They don't always provide the education that children and young people need at home. And when you see schools and parents working well together, schools are informing parents regularly about when those lessons are taking place, the type of topics that are going to be covered, and perhaps even inviting parents to see the range of resources they may even want to borrow and use at home to enhance what they're providing at home. There is nothing to get in the way of parents coming into school

and finding out more about the RSE and understanding how it is taught and to look at the policies and to ask to see materials as well if they wish. Yeah, you think that should always be available, whatever, even if it's commercial property of the lesson from an RSE provider, that that should be completely transparent and given to any parent that questions are asked for it. Commercial considerations are there across the board with school materials. There are lots of different subjects at school

where the same elements of the law would apply. That's rather different to the point about RSE, which is that parents have a particular angle on RSE wanting to understand how they can work with schools on this. They can come into schools and ask to see materials on the school site that does give them insights into how those resources are used and opportunities to kind of address some of their myths or misconceptions which do abound when it comes to relationships and sex education. It has to be a partnership. It does work very well as a partnership. In fact, the government mandated that schools consult with parents.

What's missing now is making sure that we're all responding to the views and experiences and realities of young people. That has to be at the heart of decisions going forward to improve and perfect relationships and sex education. Lucy Emerson, Director of the Sex Education Forum, thanks very much to you. And also to Evelyn Ford, who is President of the Teaching Union, the Association of School and College Leaders, also serving head teacher. So many of you getting in touch.

Let me read a few of your comments that have been coming in over the past couple of moments. I'm a forensic scientist of 22 years and I've seen a significant change in the nature of sexual offences. I firmly believe this is due to widely accessible porn. I'm about to give my almost 11-year-old daughter her first mobile phone. I've talked to her about porn as I believe these discussions should happen before a child has their first exposure.

I don't expect my daughter to go searching for it, but I do anticipate she'll be exposed to things through friends, groups, sharing. It's so important to have open discussions with children from a young age. We want our children to grow up to have happy, healthy and safe sexual relationships. Another from Diane. Hello, I believe that relationship and sex education should receive priority funding

as an early intervention strategy to provide students with necessary information and support they need to make healthy and appropriate decisions that will affect their future happiness. And one more. The only sex education I remember from my grammar school in the 60s involved earthworms. A knowledge of the earthworm reproduction isn't a great preparation for life. So says Julia. Keep them coming. 84844. You're listening to Woman's Hour, devoting this full hour to sex education. We were talking there about how it is taught and the teacher training that goes with it. But let us turn now, we're bringing up parents. Let's talk about what do parents want when it comes to sex and relationship education in schools.

Joined by two parents. First, let me talk to Clare Page, who was concerned about what her daughter was being taught in a sex education lesson. She made a Freedom of Information request to the school, to the school trust I should say, to have a copy of that lesson plan, the accompanying slides and other materials, which was not fully granted on grounds of commercial sensitivity and for privacy of the teacher.

The lesson was carried out by an external supplier of relationships and sex education. Clare then took the case to the Information Commissioner's Office and they ruled that the initial decision was correct. Claire is now going to tribunal to appeal the ICO's decision notice. Claire, you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. What were you concerned about in this particular lesson and perhaps also the year it was being taught in would be useful for our listeners? Yes, yes, it was taught to year 10. And I think the chief thing that concerned me to begin with was that it wasn't as it was described. So parents have the right to withdraw their child

from sex ed. And in this case, the subject was consent. And I thought that that was a good subject to learn about and happily gave permission for my daughter to take part. But when she got home, she described something a little bit different. You know, she was saying that she'd been taught she lives in a heteronormative society. That's a very bad thing. And she should be sex positive in her attitude to relationships. I think she was taught about intersectionality too. I obviously can't be fully sure what she learned but you know i go by what what she tells me so so that's why i asked to see the lesson and was unable to so couldn't fully verify what all of these things were um and so then i i did a little bit of digging online to find out what the charity

might mean by these things and actually when you look up the definitions of sex positivity, although it's a very nice sound, sounds positive, it actually is a very political theory. It's it has a lot of controversial issues that I think wouldn't meet the Education Act's requirement for schools to be impartial. So actually, yeah. Well, let's talk about that, because I think sex positivity, people hear that term. If you look it up, some of the explanations might be to have sex as part of a positive part of your life, that a pleasurable sex should be part of a healthy sex life. What was it that you found political about it? Well, I can give an example of a definition on one mainstream provider, for example. So they say to us, sex positivity means providing a sex education free of shame and discrimination. And the links between shame and sex have deep roots in colonization, the violent enforcement

of ideals of sexual expression and the demonization of anything that isn't heteronormative, white or Christian. So elsewhere, I've read that it means stepping away from heteronormative and monogamy based assumptions and being nonjudgmental and accepting about sexual practices that are considered to deviate from the norm. So sorry to interrupt you, Claire, just to say that I don't know where that is coming from. And obviously, I don't have them on to defend themselves. But what you're saying

is that you feel it is partial. You heard me speak a little bit earlier about impartiality. It seemed to come down from my previous conversation that it was up to the school to vet the RSE providers. Is it that you don't trust

the school to do that? Well, I think schools aren't ready for this. I think the third sector has quite a strong and established vision of what they want to put into schools. I know my school was perhaps quite naive in letting this come in. When I asked for the lesson plan, my school couldn't provide it to me because they didn't even have it. And so that means they aren't actually in a position to really scrutinise themselves, I think, or perhaps don't look at it enough beforehand. Also, there's often quite a big difference between what the external provider might do online, which is their wider offering, and the sort of small part that they present to the school, so that the school doesn't get the full picture

either. And without us having the actual slides and looking at the actual words, we can't, as parents, we can't make a complaint to our school. We can't compare it to our school's own RSE policy. And even more than that, I don't think Ofsted can even get to see these materials, which is quite a concern for the regulation of education. Well, I can't confirm or deny that for Ofsted on whether they've seen, you know, specific provider materials. And of course, this was one lesson with one provider. But you decided to take action for the reasons you've outlined? Yes, absolutely. I just think that, especially in the publicly funded sector, these are lesson plans that are being paid for by the public purse. And we,

not just parents, but all of us really need to be able to have a view on the way that our young generation is being brought up and to be able to see that governments and teachers and all the different parties involved are doing an impartial and fair job. So, yes, I thought it was important enough that somebody ought to test whether or not we have the right to see out this. So what would you like relationships and sex education or SE to contain? What is appropriate? I think it's hard for me to say. I'm not an expert. I'm not an expert.

I'm not a teacher. And I have some doubts about the entire premise of teaching relationships. I think relationships are learned through having them in our families. And giving the power to a part of society to sort of determine what that looks like is quite controversial. It's very difficult to suit everyone. So the job is making something that is universal, universal principles, not political theories. But I suppose just on that point, Clare, many would say the reason they have RSE for some in schools is because perhaps the

family is not providing a healthy relationship or not providing the correct, you know, information, even for stuff that people can agree on to that child. Yes. And I think that we probably I can't imagine there are many people who would deny children being taught all those important facts, the basic important facts. I think it's the higher level aspects that are of concern. So if you're teaching children the biological facts, the procreative and disease facts, and also important legal facts, so we can talk about consent, because that's a legal issue, and it's very clear age of consent, and so on. It's when we start to discuss how it is that we should and shouldn't engage in our sexual relations from moral points of view with value statements and value judgments added to it that it becomes much more problematic. And I don't think the balance is right. I don't think parents are. I think something is being pressed into RSE that not all parents will agree with. And that's a real problem. When we were talking about what it is

that you might like to see in there, and I know you say that you are not an expert on it, but when it comes to pornography, and consent was actually what initiated, I suppose, this whole debacle for you with your daughter, what way would you like that to be talked about? Because we do know that we live in a social media world, that pornography is something that children seem to be coming up against

younger and younger. Well, this comes back, I think, to the sex positivity message. There's a really incoherent position, I think, coming through at the moment. So I think everyone's in agreement that there is too much porn in proximity to children and it is doing them harm. So all sides agree on that. I think what people disagree about is how we treat that. And for some people, there's an idea that you mustn't shame children. You must make them feel comfortable about the fact that they have seen or are watching porn. And you're going to help them sort of navigate their way through that towards ethical porn.

So there's quite a lot of talk about watching feminist or ethical porn or making sure that the porn industry is paid for and things which actually accept that the porn watching will happen and trying to mitigate it. And then, of course, another view would be, you know, children and porn should never be encounter, children should never encounter porn. And that should, all parents and teachers together should be giving that singular message of don't watch it. These are, you know, this is, you know, we haven't got a clear mandate from the public of what we want to say to our kids. And yet the third sector are going forward with a very sex positive message about, you know, sometimes saying that porn isn't even a bad thing. It's just how you, you know, you critically digest it and things like that, which I don't think is a universally sound or safe answer. And it starts to also make us a little

bit relaxed about the age of consent as well, which I don't think is the right thing. You know, anything under 16, children shouldn't see porn. And that's what I would say in my own family. And I'd quite like my school to back me up on that. I'm also joined by Fiona, who's a listener and parent of four

who wrote into us on this topic. Fiona, you're hearing a little bit from Claire there, but what's your view on how early children should be taught about sex and relationships? Hi, thanks for having me. My view is as early as possible. I have four children ranging from four up to 13. So they're within the school system. It's obviously got to be age appropriate. And I know that is going to be somewhat of a different definition for different people. But from an early age, children should be taught body positivity, should be taught about their bodily functions. It shouldn't be shrouded in shame or taboo. And my experience of sex education within my children's school has been pretty positive. They embed it within the curriculum from a young age to teach children about things such as safe touch, things about the changes they will go through.

Up to, I believe it's around eight, they're actually taught the biology of sex. They're talking about menstruation, about puberty in boys. But they're also, most importantly, from a very early age, talking about healthy relationships. And as a parent, this is key. And this is built on throughout the curriculum. So by the time they are experiencing puberty, they may be seeing things on social media, which will happen. They have the tools to begin to navigate that. So let's talk about things

like I was mentioning also with Clare. There are adult issues, for example, like pornography, which is illegal to watch until somebody has reached 18. But as we have heard and there has been evidence, it is more diffuse, obviously, into younger people than that.

Should teachers be proactive about that or reactive? Do you think it should be initiated by the teacher? I think the earlier conversations can happen, the better. I think in an ideal world, our children would not be watching pornography until the age of consent. All pornography would be very tame. Certainly the extreme or misogynistic pornography would not exist. Now, as a parent, I can put as many safeguards in place to ensure my children don't see that. The reality is children are tech savvy. Even if they're not watching it they may be past it by friends I want them the teachers and parents to get ahead of that so and to be having those conversations

around what they're viewing and what that means in real life so my son my eldest was um in year six which would have been right around 10 and 11 when there was an incident where a boy asked a girl in the class to send nudes. And that was, the teacher had to deal with that reactively. I think they dealt with it very well and parents were informed, but it would have perhaps been better had it been discussed as part of sex education, because that has very serious ramifications. I mean, you're essentially dealing in child pornography. And those conversations did happen. But had they happened earlier, that incident might not have

taken place. And some people, of course, do not like the term child pornography. They prefer the term child sexual abuse. What about that, Claire? Instances like Fiona brings up and she would prefer that the teacher be proactive. Well, it's very difficult, isn't it? Because in order to save one problematic incident, you're going to have to perhaps slightly spoil an innocence that a lot of children are enjoying. This is something we really

haven't got a clear answer to. And I don't think it's been debated properly. I don't think, I think we're just running ahead with actually what third parties feel might be the best answer for them. And we need...

Sorry, Clare, to interrupt you, but I think Fiona is saying this as a parent, not as a third party provider. She's talking about it just in reference to her kids. Well, yes, but it will be. I think the answers are being delivered by the third sector at the moment. And, you know, actually, I mean, my feeling is that we should be redoubling our effort to ask our government that our children are not in this position. I think this is something that needs dealing with much higher up the chain. We cannot have this amount of pornography in proximity to children that we have to sexualise them early, even in a defensive manner, because that's still exposing children to these ideas that are out of their age group.

I, in an ideal world, I think we're all coming from the same position. We don't want children sexualised. Of course we don't. This idea that children are somehow enjoying this innocent bubble, I don't think that's necessarily true of a lot of children.

You know, whether they have older siblings, they have peers, they will be shown this material, sadly, at some point. And we have to get ahead of the game to ensure that they have the tools at hand to understand what they are seeing, and hopefully to have the relationship with a teacher, a parent to be able to discuss this fully. I agree that, you know that pornography should not be anywhere near children. And we do need social media companies. We need the government to be much stronger on this.

We also need to deal with the realities on the ground. And that means informing children and giving them the power. Fiona, thanks so much for coming in, a listener and parent of four. Sorry, Claire, did you want a final point? Well yes I was just going to well don't worry it was a long point I might not fit that in. No worries Clare, thank you so

much for joining us, that is Clare Page also joining us as we talk about sex education here is a statement from a provider, it's a mischaracterisation to describe our resources as secret. Our lessons are witnessed by hundreds of teachers

on a regular basis. We also work closely with schools so the staff can review our resources before school visits. When Miss Page, that is Clare, got in touch with us in October 2021, we were keen to ally her concerns and we're happy to accommodate

her request to see our resources. We've been reassured by her child's former school that this took place. Our team is made of teachers, sexual violence prevention specialists, youth workers and doctors, all of whom form our programmes to ensure they are evidence-based and relevant in 2023. We find the politicisation of relationships and sex education very concerning

and will continue to provide high-quality, inclusive, age-appropriate, or SE, in line with the government guidance and young people's rights. So that one is in relation to Clare's issue with her child's lesson. And also the school contacted a DfE approved provider to teach a single PSHE lesson on the issue of consent over 18 months ago. They say we make available all curriculum plans on our website. We're happy to share material shown to our students and parents. On this occasion when asked we showed the parent everything that was used in this lesson but were prevented

from providing a hard copy by the provider due to copyright law. We have done all we can within the bounds of the law to comply with the parents' requests. The school takes no stance on the money sensitive issues covered in PHSE which are handled appropriately with all students. All our teaching adheres to the Secretary of State's statutory guidance

and recommended best practice. This was subject to a complaint made to the Information Commission's officer, which concluded that the copyright holder was entitled to refuse permission for its release. This is under appeal. The school has policy of only employing organisations which are prepared to allow the materials to be shared with parents. So all of that in response to Clare's issue with her child's

lesson. Let us move on. How do we know what children need from sex education lessons? Well, we've touched on it a little as you've heard, but let me bring in an academic who's been active in the RSE sector for two decades, Dr Sophie Kinghill, an academic at Birmingham University joins me now. Sophie, good to have you with us.

What has your research over the years told you about what young people and children need to be taught? Well, there's so much in terms of relationships and sex education that we need to consider first before we even think about what we're going to teach in schools. I think one of the main things is the social taboo around sex and sex and relationships. You know, we don't talk about sex in wider society like we talk about the weather. You know, we don't say, oh, it's a lovely sunny day. I had great sex last night. It isn't there.

You know, we don't have that. And that's because there's a lot of shame surrounding sex and sex relationships. And yet the majority of us wouldn't exist if people didn't have sex. So I think there's the shame element which exists because of lots of different converging influences over historically. but then that's also combined with what constitutes a child

so the united nations um state that child is anyone under the 80 and under the age of 18 however this becomes a really gray area in adolescence you know where they've got one foot in the adult world one foot in the adult world, one foot in the child world. And we tend to conceptualise children as innocent representations of future society. So this makes sex and children a mutually exclusive topic. It's the social taboo, which also makes it an ideal political porn. But in terms of the last 20 years, I have learned time and time again again we have to be led by young people. So sorry to interrupt you Sophie but I would love to hear you did research with 15 young people recently and what are they telling you what do they want? They want to be part of leading relationships and

sex education with schools I did a participatory research project. We've produced a student's guide to what you don't know. And this is advice from young people to teachers and school leadership teams on what they can do. It's an eight-page booklet. You can get it off my Twitter, my LinkedIn, through the university. It's free.

Give me a top line, Sophie. What do you think? Give me one recommendation. One recommendation recommendation let them design it stop teaching them things they already know okay stop making it shameful if it's awkward if you feel awkward teaching it as a teacher go and tell your school leadership team and this is from young people age 14 and 15 well let me turn to Tanya Carter who's here from the grassroots parents campaign group safe schools alliance welcome Tanya Carter, who's here from the grassroots parents campaign group Safe Schools Alliance.

Welcome, Tanya. You're hearing a little bit from Dr. Sophie there. But what do you believe that young people need from RSE lessons? And of course, we've heard about the prevalence of pornography and how that seems to come up as a sticking point on how to approach it. Hi, thanks for having me here. Yes, we're not just parents. There's a little buzz there. I'm not sure why that is. It's buzzing in my ears. Yes, I can hear that there. I might just get you to move over to that microphone, if you don't mind. Go ahead there, Tanya. Yeah, I can hear that buzz. I think it has something to do with that microphone.

Forgive us. Sorry. What do young people need as you think of this, you know, 2023? Well, first of all, we're not just parents we're parents teachers and other professionals and we're very keen on a safeguarding first approach for children and like Sophie said children have been deemed under 18s by the United Nations and it's very important that for their own protection we hold that that under 18s are children and that comes with certain rights because when we forget that they're children we see all sorts of different safeguarding failures. But what about the grey area as Sophie outlined it you know what I mean that they can be sexually active that they are being exposed to perhaps harmful messages don't you want them to have the tools to deal with that?

Absolutely but also we mustn't lose sight of the fact that safeguarding children is an adult responsibility they're obviously of course part of safeguarding is to educate them and help them to navigate the world particularly the online world so we talk to RSE teachers all the time some are in the group we're always on the lookout for resources that we actually can recommend and there is some good work being done on teaching about porn and they sort of start from young and it's scaffolded upwards and it's taught via the fact that it's exploitation. So there's no shame on the child. But we do need to be placing the shame on those adults who are targeting children with pornography. So you are coming with that message that this is exploitation, that you just shouldn't watch it.

Would that be fair? We're coming with the message that people who like the porn companies, the algorithms, people who are targeting you with porn, they're exploiting you and we will help you with that. Let me throw it back to Sophie. What about that message? Yeah, I mean, it's a multimillion dollar industry, isn't it, porn, internationally. So we can't just say, right, stop it. Stop targeting children. Stop sending this out. It's unrealistic. But what about that message that Tanya would like the message to be porn is exploitation in terms of of the in terms of teaching that to children when it comes up in rse i think in scare mongering with children doesn't work we need to be working with them we need to be led by them and i think sometimes especially i noticed in the

case dossier there's no mention of being led by young people and building on what they know already you know we have to be led by them. And I suppose the question is whether this comes down to different people's opinions whether people consider porn exploitative whether they consider saying it's exploitative fear-mongering. Well we're not fear-mongering at all. The children who are being targeted with porn, before we get on to whether the people in the porn are being exploited, the children being targeted online are being exploited. And I need to mention, because the issues that come up are things like choking,

for example, of course, which we've talked about before in this programme, anal sex. It can also be oral sex. Some people feel at too young an age, but also just some of the images that are out there in pornography. And if somebody has seen them and goes to their teacher and wants them to explain it, that's OK, Tanya? We would want teachers to deal with it in an age-appropriate manner. Obviously, children who have seen porn, this is non-contact child sexual abuse. We need to be very clear that these children are being abused and they need to be safeguarded. 15 seconds, Sophie. Okay, we've got to be led by young people. If they are seeing things in pornography that they're going to be trying themselves, we've got to be realistic.

We've got to be led by them. We've got to listen to them. And we've got to give the resources from the government to schools to be able to do this. And the Cates dossier poses a say of guardian risk and is naive at the very least. So says Dr. Sophie King-Hill,

an academic at Birmingham University. We also had Tanya Carter from Safe Schools Alliance. Thanks so much to both of you. Join me tomorrow as we reveal the Women's Hour Power List. We're going to be naming 30 remarkable women in sport who are making waves on and off

the pitch, from boardrooms to the grassroots. 30 women you need to know about. Join me, our judges and our wonderful audience and our Power List winners from the iconic radio theatre tomorrow at 10 anytime on BBC Sounds. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4,

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