Woman's Hour - Sexist abuse of MPs, Town Crier Brenda Willison, Vanessa Frake on The Governor, Second Chances

Episode Date: April 21, 2021

Vanessa Frake worked in the prison service for 27 years. For 16 of those years she was the head of security and operations at the notorious male prison Wormwood Scrubs. Her career saw her cross paths with some of Britain's most notorious criminals. She was the main officer responsible for serial killer Rose West whilst she awaited trial, she was made a cup of tea by Myra Hindley, and she looked after Pete Doherty. Vanessa was awarded an MBE for her work in the prison service in 2012, and took early retirement in 2013. She has now written her memoirs in 'The Governor: My Life in Britain's Most Notorious Prisons'.This year the British town crier championships will be held in silence. Brenda Willison has been a town crier for 34 years. Based in Newmarket, Suffolk she’s been the Chair of the Loyal Company of Town Criers for the last 10 years. Last year their annual competition was cancelled so this year they decided to hold one online which only involves the content of the crying and the winner will be announced on May 13th. She explains to Anita why she thinks women make the best town criers.MPs believe there is a growing ‘digital threat to democracy’ which is preventing women from a career in politics. Yesterday in parliament there was a call for more action with female MPs from all sides recounting their experiences. Academic studies have shown that harassment against women has increased over the past two general elections, with women experiencing double the increase that men have experienced. Reporter Melanie Abbott talks to Anita about the issues.And we have the second in our series Second Chances. Our reporter Milly Chowles had a baby last year, she’s in long term recovery from addiction and feels she was given lots of chances to change before she became a mother. As the number of children in care rises and with drug and alcohol issues a factor in many cases, are women at risk of having their children removed getting the help they need? And what is the cost for their children and society as a whole if they don't? In five authored pieces Milly tells her story and listens to the experiences of mothers who face stigma and a fight to access services.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Morning all, if you're having trouble waking up this morning, this should do the trick. Oh yay! Oh yay! Oh yay! Welcome to Wednesday's Woman's Hour. Fantastic. Well done. That was Brenda Wilson. The British Town Crier Championships will be held in silence this year,

can you believe it? So we'll be talking to Brenda, who's the chair of the loyal company of town criers, to find out more. Then we're stepping into another world today. We're going into another world today. We're going into Old Chokey, experiencing life behind bars from the perspective of a senior prison officer. After 27 years in the job at both male and female prisons, Vanessa Frake now has a book out sharing her story and it makes for a fascinating and funny read. She'll be joining me

to tell me about her life in the clink. Have you ever wondered what life was like in prison? Maybe you know, maybe you have yourself have done time, in which case, what was your experience? If you'd like to share your story with us, please do get in touch. You can text us 84844. Of course, you can email by going to our website or go to our social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Then we'll be getting the latest on a debate that took place in Parliament yesterday about female MPs and the online abuse they face. They're dealt so much sexism and racism online that it's putting some women off going into jobs in public life. Is this something you can relate to? Have you been on the receiving end of vile hate? Again, you can get in touch. And we have another episode in our series Second Chances. A recovering addict and mother Millie Chowles explores what happens to pregnant addicts. What are their options if they want

to keep their children? Today we have an eye-opening account of a woman who was happy to go into prison pregnant because she knew she'd get clean inside. So let's get to it. Brenda Wilson has been a town crier for 34 years. Based in Newmarket, Suffolk, she's been the chair of the loyal company of town criers for the last based in new market suffolk she's been the chair of the loyal company of town criers for the last 10 years last year their annual competition was cancelled so this year they decided to hold on hold it online and it only involves the content of the crying no actual crying so this is the second round and the winner will be announced on may the 13th and brenda joins us now you won't be silenced on woman's hour, Brenda. First of all, you look, that was such a brilliant intro.

You look fantastic. Could you describe what you're wearing? A tricone hat with feathers. In the olden days, they used to use the feathers as quills. And so that's why quite often you've got the feathers there. And I've got Kate and my waistcoat. It's actually got horses on because of being Newmarket Christ. That's a got Kate and my waistcoat has actually got horses on because of being new market cry that's a very snazzy waistcoat we'll definitely get a picture of you

online I might take one on my phone getting very involved here you've been a town cry for many years tell us how you got involved well I never intended to be a crier I used to be a catering manager at Ferry Meadows Country Park in Peterborough, and they've got two cafes one and a half miles from one another. And they had a thing in the paper saying, could you be town crier? If so, write in and tell us why. And my daughters, who used to help in the cafes, wrote in and said, if my mum stands outside one cafe and shouts, gyps, we'll be able to hear her in the other. And that's it, you got the job. So what does it involve, being a town crier?

Well, you do a lot of charity work and council work, and we do do competitions as well. And obviously this year it's slightly different. But, yeah, you do all sorts and you meet the public, which I really enjoy. Even if you're not crying, people come up and say, oh, what are you here for? And you've moved to different places over the years,

but you've always made sure you were a town crier wherever you were based. You were based in Bakewell. You made sure you did it there. Why do you love it so much? Well, I love the camaraderie, not just with the criers, but also with everyone you meet. And I like being able to raise money for charity in a unique way.

It's a unique talent. And do you think women make better town cries than men? The men would beg to differ, but I think a lot of the time women speak clearer when they're in full voice. And also they've got better diction and inflection. So I'm a bit biased, but yes, I think so. And this year you're doing, you've actually, I mean, it's quite hard to imagine a town crier competition without any crying.

That's right. But we always have to write cries and quite often you get given different subjects to write your cry about. I've written about Dracula and turtles and all sorts of things. However, this year we decided that we would have the competition based on content of cry, because if you've not got good content, you can't cry very well. So this year it's been done that way. And it's just got through to the final round.

And how are you doing? I'm pleased to say I'm in the top 10. The winner will be announced on May the 13th. So you never know. It might be me. I doubt it. My money's on you, Brenda. My money's on you.

And we're all rooting for you at Women's Hour HQ. And this year, the competition, it's all for charity, isn't it? It's for a mental health charity. You're raising money for Shout. And you've written a cry to announce it. Could you give us a taste of the cry that you've written? We're normally social criers.

We love to meet our mates. We go to competitions, but we can't go out the gates. We've met family by different means. The internet has helped us all get through. So we're holding a virtual competition and we want your support, all of you. Brenda Wilson, thank you very much for joining us this morning. A bit of town crying for you. Why not on a Wednesday?

Now, record numbers of female MPs got elected at the last general election. They now make up a third of the House of Commons, but some have been subjected to such horrific online abuse and trolling. There's a fear they won't stay, and attracting more is getting increasingly difficult. This was highlighted yesterday in a debate in Parliament. Our reporter Melanie Abbott listened in. Morning, Melanie.

What kind of online abuse are we talking about here? Well, at best, a mildly sexist comment about your appearance at worst for threats to rape or to kill. At least one MP said that she should come off Twitter because of abusive likeness. It's often worse for black or Asian female MPs, a horrible mix of misogyny and racism. The debate heard women from ethnic minorities receive around 35% more abuse than white women MPs. The MP Diane Abbott of course has spoken about this

before in last year's Dawn Butler, the MP for Brunton in London, closed her office after receiving threats over social media and bricks thrown through the office windows. Claudia Webb, a Labour MP, was the first black woman MP elected for the county of Leicester in the last intake. Speaking over a variable internet link at the debate,

so you might have to listen harder to this, she described what's happened to her. I have faced horrific, violent, misogynistic and racist online abuse throughout my time in public and in politics, which has intensified since becoming an MP, to include, for example, death threats, trolling, threats of rape and lynching, and targeted far-right hate and organised attacks from the World Wide Web. We will come back to Melanie.

The line is quite bad. So what we'll do is we'll reconnect with Melanie and come back to melanie the line is is quite bad so what we'll do is we'll reconnect with melanie and come back to the item because we really want to hear what melanie has to say on that um but now we will continue our series second chances a reporter millie charles had a baby last year she's in long-term recovery from addiction and feels she was given lots of chances to change before she became a mother as the number of children in care rises, and with drugs and alcohol issues a factor in many cases, are women at risk of having their children removed, getting the help they need?

And what is the cost for their children and society as a whole if they don't? In the second of her authored pieces, Millie tells us her story and listens to the experiences of mothers who face stigma and a fight to access services. The last time I was in rehab, it was an all-female one, and I remember I was the only woman there at the time without kids. I was so scared that I'd missed my chance of having a family. It was the one thing I wanted more than anything. One day after cooking an overly elaborate but very healthy dinner, one of the other women there said to me,

you would make such a good mum. It stands out in my mind as it was such a bittersweet thing to hear at the time. We're all on a few years later and I've been very fortunate. I'm loving being a mum and hopefully I'll never have to make that decision of whether I go to rehab and leave him behind or try and get clean on my own in the community. I'm so grateful for that. Trevi House is a mother and baby rehab in Plymouth

and was set up with exactly this dilemma in mind. Three local drug workers saw the negative impact being separated from their children for so long was having on women and their recovery and decided to do something about it. It's a pretty unique place. There are 10 beds and they have the capacity to work with around 20 to 25 families a year so it really is the lucky few that get this opportunity. Whether a woman gets offered this opportunity is often a postcode lottery according to the CEO. Whilst the mothers are here they're addressing issues such as trauma,

sexual violence, domestic violence and childhood abuse in group work. They're also being assessed as to whether they can safely keep custody of their children. It's a second chance and it's usually the last chance too. If the mother doesn't complete the programme, it will be permanently adopted. A woman we're calling Katie came to Trevi via a prison sentence for drug offences. I was shocked when I found out that I was pregnant. I was scared because I was still using and I didn't want my child to be put through being on drugs and being born addicted.

But I went to the services, the drug services to seek help, because I was on a subutex script. I wasn't taking heroin, because I got clean off heroin in May. But I couldn't, you know, kick the crack habit. So to the services, and I knew that I was pregnant, I'd done a positive drugs test and pregnancy test. And they said to me, you know, we have to get the social services involved. And I said, Yeah, I'm well aware of that but I would like to seek some sort of help you know to come off it. So what sort of options were presented to you? There wasn't any I wanted to get clean and I needed to get clean for my unborn child but there was just not enough available to support me getting clean. So what

happened then? Fortunately enough I ended up going to prison and that kind of saved me and got me help that I needed. And it was your first baby right? Yeah. How far pregnant were you when you went to prison? 16 weeks. Wow that must be the last place you want to be at 16 weeks pregnant in a way but you say it saved you. I think it was the blessing in disguise you know not nobody wants to go to prison but I think you know the place that I was in at my life I was homeless I was you know heavily addicted to drugs and I did want my baby but I just didn't know how to get off. So how did it help you being in prison? It was just a safe environment for me to focus on myself

and reducing my prescription medication and also stopping crack. I was eating three square meals a day. You know, I didn't have to worry about anyone who would influence me in using. So whilst you were in prison, were you attending all your antenatal appointments at hospital? How was that? Were you having to go cuffed and stuff like that? I did arrive cuffed. And while I was in the appointments, I was uncuffed. But I had two officers with me at all times.

How did that feel? Quite embarrassing. It was very, very hard. So you were in prison for all of your pregnancy? All of my pregnancy. So how was he born? Where was he born? I'm just quite interested to hear, if you were in prison for all of your pregnancy? All of my pregnancy. So how was he born? Where was he born? I'm just quite interested to hear if you were in prison, what happens? You know, when I think about my experience of giving birth, I mean, it couldn't be more different, to be honest.

You know, I was at home. I had my essential oils. I had my playlist. You know, I had my comfy clothes. I had my snacks, my drinks. I was excited when my contractions started because I really wanted to meet my baby. Of course. And I had two officers with me at all times. I had two officers sat out the door when I was giving birth. You stayed on that mother and baby unit for a while. What was it like? Can you sort of describe it to me? Is it like a regular hospital wing or

is it more like a prison? No, it's like a prison. There's bars on the windows. You've got vents. You haven't got proper windows. You've just got air vent, concrete floor. You've got a shower in your room. Everything's bolted down to the floor. You wouldn't call it home. I just remember all the way through, I went to antenatal classes. Did you have any antenatal classes? No. No, nothing classes no nothing like that not one all the time they were telling us you know to prepare for birth you've got to promote this oxytocin this feel-good chemical that's going to help your baby kind of arrive safely it's going to help you through labor you know and it's all about that feeling of well-being and like laughter and funny you should say that my pregnancy even though I was in prison all I'd done was laugh.

I was so happy that I was free from drugs other than my prescription. My pregnancy even though I was in prison it was quite a jolly pregnancy if you like. So your son was taken from you and you were put back on into the main wing in the prison. Yeah. And then what happened? I completed my sentence. My mum kindly let me go to her house and I was on tag there. Then obviously I got out of prison and that's when I got in touch with Trevi and I just done nothing but continue to fight. The social worker wasn't keen, but she phoned up Trevly House and she said to one of the staff members I've got a lady here but I don't think you'll take her you know the staff member I

remember her telling me when I'd completed my treatment you know that's what the social worker said. You've used the words fight and battle a few times now. Yeah. What makes it feel like that? Because you get honest with people that you're frightened of. And, you know, your baby is at risk of being removed permanently from you. And you're being vulnerable and you're seeking that you want help. You want the best for your unborn child or your child if you've given birth and it's constantly seems like whatever you do is not good enough. It's like the system's there and they've seen it all before and they believe, in my experience, they believe that

people can't change. That's an attitude I've definitely encountered. I disclosed my history during my pregnancy as I felt I had nothing to hide but I was referred to see a specialist because of it. The specialist I went to see didn't seem to understand the concept of recovery either and that I hadn't had a drink or used drugs for many years, that I was working, that I was healthy, that I was stable. All she talked to me about were child removals and she gave me a benefits form as I left. She made such an assumption about who I was from what she saw in my notes. The relationship with the people who are there to help you is absolutely crucial and there is so much stigma already for women with addiction issues.

You definitely don't want to encounter it in those who are supposed to be on your side the way that I look at it Millie is the effort that and determination that I put into my using I turned that around and brought that skill with me to fight for my child because I did not want him to be a number in the system and get lost the day that I arrived at Trevi House, I remember getting out of the car and bursting out crying, thinking I've made it. I've been believed in. People believe in me and that I am going to put my all into this and fight for my life to become the mother that I know I can be. And seeing other women with their children here already, it really put a lot of hope into me. And how old was your son at that point?

Five and a half months. And how was that being reunited with him? Oh my God. It was so frightening that he wouldn't remember me. And when he got brought here by my sister, it was like we had never, ever been apart. And the love in his eyes that what he gave me, I'll never forget that. He has been through so much and he's still such a happy, beautiful, loving little boy. He's not scared. He's not got separation anxiety. He knows that he's loved

unconditionally. And you know, I think it can be the making or the breaking of you because I know addiction is so powerful if people get given the right opportunities people will succeed at being a parent yeah so tell me about how that's been in Trevi how has this opportunity been different how has it helped you I've been around like-minded women who want recovery and who have been with their children while they're doing their recovery and looking at myself and my behaviors and my attitudes there's been highs and there's been very very lows but other people that believe in you even that one person that believes in you, that gives you more inspiration in yourself, to look yourself in the mirror and say,

you know what, I've got this and I'm going to do this. And I've done this for myself to be the mother that I know I can be for my child. I'd spoken to another woman at Trevi, we're calling her Lisa, on the phone just before Christmas. At that point, she was heavily pregnant and not sure if she would be allowed to keep her baby. Her child was born on Christmas Day. I've been quite a heavy alcohol and drug user for a lot of my life, really,

from 11 years old. My children got taken off me in 2013 and went into the care of my mum a lot and I tried getting them to rehab then. I tried three times but got refused. Having your children removed how did that impact you in your life? My addiction spiralled way way out of control I'd only just started using crack and heroin at the time just before it got taken away from me I was nearly at the brink of killing myself at some point.

I just can't imagine living with that pain. I've become a mum myself and just the thought, you know, even saying those words, I can feel it in my chest and my throat. It destroyed me. I thought I had nothing to live for anymore, you know, even though it got taken into the care of my family it just wasn't the same like it was like I was grieving for them you know I knew what I was doing was wrong to be using drugs in my pregnancy I'd been thinking about rehab again for quite a while obviously with me falling pregnant and stuff and I was begging and pleading and saying look I can't do it in the community no one was was listening to me, you know.

They were saying that I could have gone into a rehab closer to where I lived, but the baby wouldn't get taken into care and stuff like that. And I just refused it blank and said, look, I know there's a place out there where I can go with my baby. I was thankful that I got the opportunity to come into Tremblay. And since I've been here, a woman left the baby and walked out of the gates, and that was horrendous to see.

Obviously, she did it for her own reasons, but it was hard to watch. You never think that someone could ever leave the baby and do that, but that's the power of addiction. That's where it can take you. And when you do leave rehab you're not healed you've got to carry on with your recovery because it don't just stop at rehab it don't just stop at their gates you've got to carry on. Something I was told when I first went to rehab was that out of three of you one will die one will relapse and only one will make long-term

recovery. From what I've seen over the years, that's pretty accurate. And that's why I still work on my recovery every single day. A listener emailed us after an item about mothers in addiction a few months ago. She wrote, I'm shouting at the radio, what about the children? What's this doing to them? Next time we hear from that woman's son. He had to seek full

custody of his daughter because her mother was an addict and unable to care for her properly. The reporter was Millie Charles and you can hear Monday's episode of Second Chances, the first in the series on BBC Sounds and if you need help or support, there are links on our website. Now

we've got the technology working and our reporter Melanie Abba is back with us. So Melanie, bring us up to speed. What was said in Parliament about the abuse female MPs face online? Yeah, as I said, they were talking about all kinds of abuse, ranging from mildly sexist comments to at worst threats to rape or kill. We'd heard from Claudia Webb, the Labour MP, one of the first black woman MP elected for the county of Leicester, in fact. Ironically, like me, she was speaking over the internet and we know how bad that can be. She did pause from time to time as she spoke

and it was hard to know if it was the connection, but I do think it was actually from emotion. And she did go on to say this in the debate. My perpetrators hide behind pseudonyms. When the mainstream media emboldened and give oxygen to this abuse with attacks to ridicule and draw hate for my politics. History tells us that it doesn't take long for this intimidation, bullying, threats and psychological violence to lead to actual physical harm or even death. They want me to be silent, but whilst I genuinely fear for my safety every day, I refuse to be silenced. In 2016, a study by the Inter-Parliamentary Union

of 39 countries found that 82% of the women politicians surveyed had experienced some form of psychological violence 44 percent had received threats of death rape beatings or abductions and 65 percent had subjected sexist remarks gosh that 82 percent said that they'd experienced psychological violence 44 percent death rape beatings and abduction threats and 65% sexist remarks. They are shocking and worrying figures, Melanie. They really are shocking. And also on top of that, there was a survey by a group called Equal Power, which found that women perceive things are getting worse. In December 2019, 59% said they would be unlikely to stand as an MP because of the abuse or harassment they feared that they would face. Now, this has risen to 74%

of the women surveyed. So you can see why female MPs who are there worry that fewer are going to stand in the next election. Rosie Duffield is the Labour MP for Canterbury. Sexism online tries to close our female mouths, attempts to no-platform us, and very quickly resorts to jibes about dumb blondes or skin colour. Online abuse isn't simply nasty name-calling. It has grown spikes and evolved into self-indulgent, wordy blogs written by those who feel compelled to opine,

even libelously, on personal aspects of our lives that have nothing at all to do with the work we carry out on a daily basis. At first, this may seem too ridiculous to bother with. But when shared with blue tick by blue tick bully boys, if you have to then stop your family from reading it, it becomes something altogether more sinister. And perhaps even more sinister is that the abuse does tend to get worse. Carla Lockhart is from the Democratic Unionist Party. Online abuse directed at females is serious because in my experience it is like an addiction where the addict needs a monthly fix, then a weekly fix and eventually an hourly fix. Sadly, as the abuse gets more regular, it also gets more poisonous.

We need to send a stern message to those poisoning the public space that they cannot abuse with impunity. Yeah, it makes for quite disturbing listening to this. Was there any response from the government? Yeah, the Minister, Caroline Dynage, was there and she said she was appalled this kind of online abuse goes with the territory now. A colleague had been sent a picture of beheadings with a threat on the very day of the debate. She did say that the new online harms bill, it's going through Parliament at the moment,

will give a duty of care to companies, to their online users, and make it mandatory to have robust systems to remove abuse and clear ways of reporting it. Now, some MPs called for anonymity to be banned for online accounts, but Carolyn Dynage doesn't think this is the answer. There are concerns that it would prevent legitimate users like human rights activists or whistleblowers from protecting themselves, that it could dissuade vulnerable users like victims of domestic violence from seeking support, that it could deter young LGBT people who are not

ready to come out to their friends and family from seeking the information and the support that they need. But I am so keen to look at imaginative and innovative ways of tackling this. There must be some way of squaring this circle. Now, this debate was secured by Maria Miller, the Conservative MP, who's also the chair of the all-party parliamentary group, Women in Parliament. What did she have to say? She wants some of the new digital service tax, which she says raised £29 million in its first month,

to provide support for women and girls who have received this kind of online abuse. And she also thinks that identity should be demanded when accounts are set up on social media. After the debate, I asked her about the minister's points, that that would create problems. We can have a system where verified accounts are run in parallel with those which might be anonymous online, when social media companies can collect that data themselves, but somebody could have an anonymised account. If someone is really, really concerned about protecting their identity, though, they're not going to want to share that with anyone, are they?

Because after all, we do know that data leaks can happen. So I think at this stage, we've got to balance the need of having a open and well-functioning democracy with diversity and the need to protect a minority who need to have an ability to be able to communicate anonymously and at the moment the balance isn't there we are ignoring the damage that anonymized abuse is doing to our democracy and there is no sense of trying to to find some sort of accommodation I really don't think we can continue to just simply accept that the social media world can act with abandon in terms of the way it treats people who are prominent. It's not just members of parliament. Female journalists and many others are in receipt of the sort of abuse that we're talking about in the debate today. The online harms bill is going through Parliament

at the moment. How confident are you that what you're asking for will be included in that legislation? I'm confident that the Minister and those who are drawing up the bill understand the issue. And they've been at pains throughout to say that it's important we tackle things which are unlawful and things that are harmful but not necessarily unlawful and I think that it may well be that when it comes to the issue of anonymity that there's got to be a hybrid solution here whether it needs legislation or whether it needs a public understanding from the online social media organisations is yet to be seen. I think it does need legislation. Otherwise, it will simply not happen. It was said in the debate that women are serving shorter periods as MPs than men do because of this online abuse.

What actual evidence is there for that? Because there could be other factors, couldn't there? You only have to look at the force that society's researched to see that the issue of abuse is one of the main reasons why women don't want to put themselves forward. When we also look at the information that's available on why women stand down, then the abuse that they receive is an integral part of that. Many female MPs who spoke at the debate talked about almost being frightened to open that mailbag or dreading it some mornings. Is that something you experience? experience. Like any Member of Parliament, I have received through Twitter a number of threats, which I think are wholly unacceptable. And at the time that I received them, Twitter did not respond. And that has changed now. But at the time, it was very isolating to not have anybody take it seriously.

What kind of threats were made to you? I had a rape threat. That must have been very upsetting. It's upsetting because you hope that your family doesn't see that. You know, often, you know, of course, your family follows you on Twitter. It was a very explicit threat. It was difficult to know how to deal with it. I think it does create an underlying concern that people have really dark thoughts about you as an individual.

And I think that does create an underlying thought about safety. As somebody who's worked in London all of my life, it's something which I know is not unique to members of Parliament. Many women who are going about their everyday business in the capital city will be concerned that they take the right precautions. As somebody whose face is well known, particularly on the train as I go home at night, half the train will know exactly who I am. And it can feel intimidating. But ultimately, as members of Parliament, we're there to do a job of making the world a better place and of trying to make sure that our laws and the way organisations are run do not marginalise people.

Maria Miller talking to me after the debate. And on the subject of ID checks to set up accounts, Facebook has told us that they don't believe it's the right answer. And they point out that there are millions of people around the world who don't have access to official forms of ID. And they say that they could be excluding large numbers of people if they did demand this. They also added, though, that they have clear policies against bullying and harassment and do do all they can they say to stop online abuse um melanie abbott thank you very much and lots of you getting in touch with what you're listening to um claire de silver says online and

other abuse of women in politics in all parties is designed to undermine exclude and deter women from engaging in public life if we do not this, we could lose a generation of potentially brilliant MPs and councillors. And Sarah says, you can have strong feelings against what a political party is doing and not resort to hate speech and threats. 84844 is the number if you'd like to text about anything you're listening to on the programme today. Now, Vanessa Frake worked in the prison service for 27 years.

For 16 of those years, she was the head of security in operations at the notorious male prison Wormwood Scrubs. Her career saw her cross paths with some of Britain's most notorious criminals. She was the main officer responsible for serial killer Rose West while she awaited trial. She was made a cup of tea by Myra Hindley, and she looked after Pete Docherty. Vanessa was awarded an MBE

for her work in the prison service in 2012 and took early retirement in 2013 and she's now written a memoir, The Governor, My Life in Britain's Most Notorious Prisons and joins us now on Woman's Hour. Very good morning, welcome Vanessa. Why did you decide it was time to tell your story? Good morning Anita. Well to be be honest, you know, all through my career, when people found out what I was doing for a living, they were very interested. And, you know, the stark response was always, oh, I bet you could tell a few good stories. And I suppose, yes, I thought about it and I could. After a chance meeting with Ruth Kelly, who I co-wrote the book with, and much persuasion, I might add, by her, I thought, well, maybe for me personally, it's time to tell those stories. And I'm very happy she did convince you to tell them because it's fascinating,

but also it's such an insight into a world that so many of us have no idea about. So let's go all the way back to when you first joined the prison service. You were young, 22 years old. It's 1986. You're starting in a women's prison. You're at a Holloway.

You're young. You're gay. You're new to the job. How did the female prisoners respond to you at first oh like um you know prisoners um have a lot of time on their hands they can spot new staff like who i mean we stuck out like these dreadful sort of nylon overalls with a big white patch on our lapels saying, new entered prison officer, Vanessa Fraken. You know, you were marched up the landings.

You didn't have keys, so doors were unlocked for you. Doors were locked behind you. So, I mean, you know, it was it was not overawing, but it was it was definitely a strange experience in my life for sure. So that initial. Yeah. Yeah. How did you hold your nerve? Because you talk about this in the book right at the beginning. You know, it's about power and that a lot of the criminals in there are waiting for you to show weakness. So how at 22 do you train yourself are you trained or is it just something you have to teach yourself to hold your nerve a bit of both really i mean

when i initially walked into holloway i had had no training because you then you did two weeks at your base establishment and then you went off to the training school for 10 weeks or so. So initially, I had no training. But, you know, I've always been very good at hiding my emotions. And on the whole, I felt, well, you know, I'm not going to let anybody see that, you know, I'm worried or I'm shy, because I am naturally, believe it or not, a shy person. But, you know, there's many people out there who won't believe it when I say that. But that is true. But in order to get over that shyness, I've had to sort of step up to the mark. You know, I've had to do speeches and talk to great groups of prisoners, great groups of staff. You know, and although I'm shy, I make myself do it because I think it's always good to push yourself

you talk about in the book um we we are with you on the journey where you get a new job you're being moved from Holloway which is a women's prison to Wormwood Scrubs and you are not happy about it um but then things change in 2002 when you've only settled into the job but the first thing you say is that you got to the prison and you recognised it needed a woman's touch. What did you mean? Well, I kind of thought it needed, it's a beautiful two-listed building. Everybody, you know, the towers at the front

of Wormwood Scrubs are iconic. You know, the amount of films, TV shows that picture those towers is unreal. But inside, you know, when you get a lot of men together, things can become sort of second placed, sort of filing systems, dirty floors, you know, those sorts of things. And I've always been a true believer that if you live in a clean atmosphere, then you tend to take more pride in it. And I felt that it certainly needed a good sprucing up. And I tried to do that. And I do believe I was successful in doing that.

Did you ever fear for your own safety? Never. Never. Because if I ever had, then I wouldn't have been able to walk in the jail. You know, one of the great things about the prison service is the working with people who you know have got your back and um i met some fabulous staff over the many years i worked in the prison service and um i never felt fear never you said you found it more challenging to deal with women prisoners than men how diff but you also say that there is a difference between men and women inside. Tell me what you meant.

Okay. Well, women often have many more social issues. They're often the main caregiver. They've often been victims of abuse, whether that's physical or mental abuse. They're often like, when a woman is in prison, she's very concerned about her family on the outside, who's looking after them, what her boyfriend, partner, husband is doing. It's very important to her. Often there's a lot of self-harm issues with women.

And this all stems from usually their past, their addictions, et cetera, et cetera. So also women are much more emotional than men are. You know, I mean, I've been in a dining room at Christmas time when a fight has just sprung up immediately in the dining room over somebody had a much bigger slice of Christmas pudding than another person. Well, that's happened in my household, too. It certainly hasn't happened in mine because I can't stand it. But, you know, it's quite sort of almost like flashlight with women, whereas men, you can usually, I'm not saying all the time, but most of the time, spot the emotional side coming out.

It's much easier with men. And, of course, men, and this isn't derogatory to men, but men are used to being looked after. So when they come to prison um all they're mainly worried about is who's looking after them who's um sending the money in who's um what's happening on the uh outside what what are they doing inside so it's not it's it is definitely much much much more demanding working with female prisoners than male. Now, we know that drugs coming in and contraband coming into prisons is a big problem. And you are head of security and operations and you spend a lot of time dealing with that. But the book is fascinating because even though it's very serious subject matter, you tell it in a way there's a real lightness of touch.

And the ingenuity to getting some of this stuff into the prison. I mean, explain that story, what you found in one of the cells. It's quite remarkable. Ah, yes, we found, well, I didn't find, one of my officers found literally a Ziploc wire made out of fishing wire. So it was practically naked to, practically invisible to the naked eye. And this ran from one of the top cells on D wing,

which was the life of wing then all the way over the wall and across to Hammersmith hospital to the top of Hammersmith hospital. And it was a way of getting drugs into the prison. The route at Hammersmith Hospital was open to the public. Nobody had thought that anybody would be going up there. I'm still not 100% sure to this day how they managed to work all that out. But, you know, like I said, prisoners have a lot of time on their hands. And if they put, if half of them put as much ingenuity into turning their life around as they do

in trying to get drugs in, you know, it would be a... We wouldn't have as many people. Absolutely. in you know it would be uh we wouldn't have as many people absolutely and um you know sometimes it used to make me despair of it that they could be so clever in one respect but but just keep getting caught and re-offend and re-offending another well let's talk about your thoughts on that re-offending out we very quickly you mean you do you say just because it's very interesting that you say you don't have much sympathy for drug addicts, but you don't think they belong in prison, not all of them. Well, you see, I think by having drug addicts in prison, it just increases the amount of drugs into a prison. And quite often prisoners who have not been on drugs

can find themselves pressurised into taking drugs in prison. So you're kind of feeding the habit, so to speak. But, you know, what I might think, I mean, I wrote that in the book and, you know, it was sort of somebody had asked me what I thought and I thought you know there's a lot of people that shouldn't be in prison that that unfortunately are in prison. Vanessa we have run out of time it's been so fascinating talking to you and there's so much more that we could talk to Vanessa about but if you want to know about um Myra Hindley-Maker and Cup of, amongst lots of other things, Jen, you'll just have to read the book. It's called The Governor and it's

by Vanessa Frake. Thank you, Vanessa. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr. Michael Moseley. And just before you go, I want to tell you about just one thing you can do for your overall health and well-being. I'm on a mission for my new BBC Radio 4 podcast, Just One Thing, to unearth the simple and often surprising things you can do for your brain and body. From how doing press-ups can boost your brain function, to how the power of your breathing can change the way you think and feel. So please subscribe to Just One

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