Woman's Hour - ‘Sextortion diary’, dealing with a terminal diagnosis, Judy Garland impersonator

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Last week, listener Charlotte got in touch with the programme to share her story. She was diagnosed with terminal cancer in April and was told she might only have months to live. She talks to Nuala about staying optimistic, juggling the admin of an illness with childcare, and the impact it’s having on her family. Adrienne Betteley, Strategic Advisor for End of Life Care at Macmillan Cancer Support, discusses dealing with a terminal diagnosis, how best to tell your children, and the support that's available.Tinessa Kaur has become the first Sikh woman to win the prestigious Young Pro-Bono Barrister of the Year award 2024 .She dedicates around 30 hours a week to her pro bono work in underrepresented communities. Her journey to the Bar hasn’t been easy, At just 17, while pursuing her A levels, she faced homelessness in Leicester where she lived. Now 32, the pupil barrister is hoping to inspire others from underrepresented backgrounds to pursue a career in the profession.Debbie Wileman is the British singing sensation who captured world-wide attention during the pandemic when her uncanny impersonations of Judy Garland went viral. She’s since performed at Carnegie Hall and now she'll be making her West End debut as Judy – while still doing day job at an optician’s.Producer: Maryam Maruf Studio Managers: Emma Harth and Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. I hope you had a good weekend. Well, in front of me here in the Woman's Hour studio is the grand piano poised to be played as we have the singer Debbie Wallman in studio. She's going to perform as Judy Garland. So we have a total treat coming up for your ears this Monday morning.

Also today, when criminals threatened to release Patricia Franqueza's stolen nude photos, she fought back through the medium that she knew best, and that is film. The documentary, My Sextortion Diary, is the result. And it's a story of Patricia turning the tables when she found herself a victim of blackmail. We're going to hear what happened to her.

But what about you, I'm wondering this morning? Has there been a time where you have taken control of a distressing or maybe a simply rubbish situation to come out feeling empowered? Were you able to transform the balance of power? You can text the programme, that number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. For WhatsApp, for a message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. And we also have Women's Hour listener

Charlotte with us. She got in touch as she wanted to share her story about getting a recent diagnosis of terminal cancer. Charlotte thought that maybe one of our Women's Hour listeners may have gone through something similar or perhaps you went through it with a loved one and maybe you

can understand the challenges that she's up against right now. So I'm going to be speaking to Charlotte a little later this hour very much looking forward to that but I want to begin with the Spanish filmmaker Patricia Franqueza. She has made a film about sextortion so that's a type of online blackmail when hackers threaten to share sexual photos or videos or information unless you pay them. And she made this film because it happened to her. My Sextortion Diary is a record of how she felt after her laptop was stolen and online blackmailers threatened to make intimate photos that were stored on that computer public. Let me play you a little bit of the trailer for this film.

Hi Patricia. Unfortunately, this is not a spam email. I have more than 300 emails ready to send. Please, don't make me do this. Let's negotiate. Right, that was courtesy of Gadea Films. Thanks to them. The film has just had its premiere at the Sheffield Documentary

Festival and Patricia used the film as a way to take back power and to examine the shame that some people feel about having intimate photos made public online. Patricia Franqueza joins me now. Thank you for being with us this morning. And I'm sorry, is it Patricia or Patrizia? Which

do you prefer? Well, it's Patrizia, but it's like in English, it will be like Patricia. Like, but actually, my friends are calling me like Patty. Patty. Okay. Is it okay if I call you Patty? Please. Well, welcome to Woman's Hour. I've just seen some clips of it this morning and I have to say it is the most intriguing documentary. Let's go back to how it all happened. Your laptop was stolen at a film festival in Madrid. When did you realise that in fact it led to blackmail? Actually it was like two months after the death of the computer that in the moment, like, someone stealing your computer is a big mess because I had all my life in that computer,

but I could have never imagined that someone will take this data and use it against me. So it was two months later, like on the 1st of August, when a friend is informing me that he received by email three very intimate pictures of myself by an anonymous sender. Then I remember that one week ago, I got like an email saying, hello, Patricia, unfortunately, this is not a spam email. I have hacked your computer.

And I found these three pictures that I'm attaching. If you don't send me $2,400 in this Bitcoin account, I'm going to start mass mailing the pictures to all your work contacts. So when I got... What went through your head at that point? Well, in the moment I got the blackmail email, I thought it was a spam. So I kind of didn't put attention to that email. But then when my friend is telling me he got pictures, then that email came back to me like, oh, my God, that was a real threat. So actually it took me a few seconds to understand I was being blackmailed

because in the moment it kind of changed my situation. Like, oh, wow, I'm being blackmailed by someone I don't know to the computer I was stolen so it took me a few seconds to understand the new situation I was in that actually had someone that wanted my money and had my whole computer he used the three pictures but he had the whole computer like all my data all your data wow um what did you decide to do in the moment like actually i was like i had like a few more seconds of doubting like what should i do you know should i reply to this email but then actually i felt a really responsible citizen and i directly called the police because i i needed help i was being blackmailed so i called the police because I needed help. I was being blackmailed, so I called the police.

So I started all the police journey through the blackmail. It was not really helping me, actually. And what wasn't helping you, that actual journey through the police? Sorry? What was not helping you? What was difficult? The police. The police didn't really take it seriously like they told me like it was that I like that the pictures will be leaked like they didn't protect me the police actually it was like they didn't take it seriously and they were actually sexualizing

me more like they were saying like oh this happens to young women like you and I was like okay and at some point they were telling me like no don't worry we're not going to look at the pictures like they repeated this like three times and at some point I said like me like if it's making your work better like please like what's the the picture so the police made this shame stronger and actually making the documentary helped me to put like more power into myself and I was saying all the time, I'm doing a documentary, I'm doing a documentary. So I could protect myself a bit, saying that I was a public figure. But I was realizing, imagine if you are younger and you have this tool of documentary,

the police is actually kind of sexualizing you more and feeling more embarrassed. I understand. And that was your feeling. And I don't have a response obviously from the police that you specifically spoke to but you decided you are a filmmaker, you decided to make a documentary about this

and a lot of it is filmed on your phone as well so it's kind of I suppose putting that technology back into your hands and trying to create something else. Talk me through what you managed to do there. Yeah, like I once I understood this, like it like the film is about how I'm understanding what is happening to me. So when I like this, the second of August, the day after the blackmail, I understood like I saw that that was like it was extortion what it was extortion and then I saw it

was happening all over the world and it was happening to many kind of people most likely teenagers they are the more vulnerable ones so then I understood I needed to have a documentary about it I felt like this case happened to me because I needed to tell about it so actually like the documentary was like helping me to have like a sense into my blackmail. Like I was I was documenting everything. And the concept of the film is I was using all the data and all the devices the hacker would have access to. So it's like I felt inspired, like it was two months. Even now, I feel maybe the hacker is still, you know, like looking at me, like, you know, searching. So it's about this idea that someone is spying on you and he's waiting for you to do a mistake so he can attack you back. here because I feel the parts of the documentary that I watched I felt I was watching you if that

makes sense while you are making this documentary about possibly being watched by somebody else this unknown person which actually was a criminal gang right? We don't know. Actually, the end of the film is bittersweet because at the end, my success, it's that we are here talking, that we finished the documentary, and the documentary helps other people in the same situation know what to do, or friends of people that is going through it,

what to do. It's creating consciousness because when I was this victim of sextortion, i had no information it was five years ago so at the end making the film is like the the antidote of the hacker you know like i'm i'm making the hacker have less clients but the hacker is still free so it's like bittersweet because the the bad one is still hacking other people so so at the end like the film is also bringing the audience in the sight of the hacker. Like we are like looking at someone suffering and being spied. Yes, being spied on.

Because you also made what must have been a really difficult decision to upload some of those intimate photographs yeah actually like during the blackmail with my friend money we were like laughing like oh the best thing will be to post a picture of yourself I'm like yes of course but I'm like I don't want like I was laughing but I didn't really intend to do it because I didn't I didn't want to show myself like this you know it wasn't an image that I chose to share to the public. So at some point, like after two months, the hacker is not stopping. So at some point, I see that my only way to go out of this blackmail is like posting the pictures myself, like instead of him shaming me for the pictures, like, don't worry, I will post it. So I take over my privacy and I show it to myself, you know, even though it's,

it was, it was, it was complicated. Like actually people, while I was telling my case and I said, I posted the picture of people was like, ah, so it's so easy. You just post them. The film is about how hard it is to decide to do this and to do this movement, because it's so easy you just pose them the film is about how hard is to decide to do this and to do this movement because it's very easy to see these cases from outside but while you are while you are inside and you're the one who is suffering it it takes much more much more courage and I was 29 years old like I was an adult I had a profession I had like a system support my my shame system is more aware but I was thinking like if this would have happened to me when I will be 16 years old I don't know what I would

have done yeah um I know reading you were crying while posting those intimate photographs because you knew you said it was the right thing to do but that didn't make it an easy thing to do. But you said the hacker remained aggressive, messaging you. What was it, emails? There were emails. He was, first of all, he asked me 2,400. Then he told me to negotiate. Then he was first targeting my work contacts.

He wanted to shame me on the work system but imagine it if I would have been a lawyer that I would have just recently have been promoted imagine this happened to you like you maybe you pay because you don't want your all your effort of work after like six years of working then someone sending nudes to your boss, you know, like, thanks God. I was like in the documentary, like atmosphere. So it wasn't, but imagine like being a, so they are targeting directly to your work. And then slowly, slowly, he went to my family.

Oh my goodness. Yeah, he sent the pictures to my father intentionally. So he was slowly, slowly being more aggressive and like touching the shame do you know that it's a guy you say he he actually he's referring as a guy but with money like we are we were always saying like it would be a she you know like i don't i want this thing to be user versus user and actually the how i'm representing the hacker it has this the voice of the internet

like a robotic voice that we heard at the beginning there in that little clip exactly it doesn't have a gender it doesn't have an age like i think i love this user versus user like you know so it's actually more invisible and more like it's more sharp um Could I turn to what actually happened? Because my understanding is the police considered your case resolved because the person or people who stole the laptop were caught. Yeah.

That did happen. It did happen after five years. Yeah, right. Actually, the justice worked, but super slowly. But at the end, we got the guy who stole my computer. So now we are reopening the case of sextortion because he knows what he did with the computer. And it's not about my personal case.

My computer is already lost and the data was lost. So they can blackmail me again because the hacker is still online but it's understanding what they do with the stolen devices because here there's a huge business when they steal your laptop or your phone it's not about the the the cost of the of the device is the what they do with the data so one like actually i live in barcelona and they steal a lot of phones and the thing is like it's not about the phone it's like oh my god what i had inside it's not just about the pictures also emails like text you know what what you can be vulnerable of that you will you will pay you know it's not the hardware, it's everything that's inside it. I'm also wondering,

because you said you're older, you've gone through this now, what advice would you give to somebody who's going through this? Because it is a global issue. We've spoken about it many times here on Woman's Hour, but your story grabbed us because it's so unique in that way of trying to turn the tables. I will tell them to know that they didn't do anything wrong so that they will kind of put the shame away and that they will be active in their own case. Like ask for help, like surround yourself with support like it can be your parents it can be your friends knowing that your your your support system will not shame

you you know they will help you to move forward actually my friend money like was the one who because when you're in pain it's harder to find perspective into things so having a support system they will hug you but they will say, let's go to the police. So like asking for support and going to the legal system because they need to know that this is happening more and more. So the police also have more cases

to study and to find a way to protect the users of their own countries. So interesting. Thank you for spending some time with us this morning, Patty, Patrizia Franqueza

and she had her UK premiere at the Sheffield Documentary Festival and just to let you know again it's called My Sextortion Diary

the little parts of it I saw I found it so intriguing best of luck Patrizia thank you so much for coming on to Woman's Hour

Thank you very much for inviting on to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for inviting me. And if you want to get in touch on that or any of the other stories that we are covering this morning, 84844 is one way to get in touch. Now, I am looking for you to get in touch with the next thing I want to tell you about because on Woman's Hour tomorrow,

we have a special extended 90-minute programme where I'll be speaking to senior women from the main political parties as we host the Woman's Hour election debate. And we want you to get involved

by telling us about the issues that you care most about. Is it access to affordable childcare? Is it an overhaul of maternity provision? Or maybe commitment to climate change policies? What are your priorities

for future government policy? Maybe there's some issues you think are being ignored in the party manifestos or contract, as Reform UK has called theirs today. And do the parties listen enough to women's voices?

Let us know the issues that will influence how you vote on the 4th of July and we'll ask the politicians. To get in touch with your questions you can text WOMENSHOUR on 84844, text our charge at your standard message rate. On social media it's at BBC WOMENSHOUR or email us through our website and we'd really love this. Why not send a voice note? WhatsApp number is 03700 100 444 and I'll give those numbers again before the end of the hour. But I want to turn next to a Woman's Hour listener, Charlotte. And Charlotte got in touch with us as she wanted to share her story with you. She said when she got in touch with us that I'm sure there

are many listeners out there that would relate to my story. I may be able to help them and there may be people out there who listen that might be able to help me. Because Charlotte was diagnosed with terminal cancer in April and was told she might only have a few months to live. I'll be joined shortly by Adrian Bettilly from Macmillan Cancer Support. But I want to begin first with Charlotte

and welcome you to Woman's Hour. And also just say, I'm so sorry you received that diagnosis. Oh thank you it's not an easy diagnosis to take. No you know the first thing I'm looking at you on a screen Charlotte and this is the first time we've met but what I'm first struck by is that you're so young which I think i should tell our listeners as well let me turn to the diagnosis when you originally went to your gp it was with a long-term blocked nose well in january i had a blocked nose and it just it wouldn't go away and um and i debated whether to not because it's just a blocked nose but i did go to the gp um and was sent away I went back again sent away and then the third time I went um by this point I was also experiencing uh painful sensations in the right

side of my face so it started off like tickling but then it turned into burning sort of icy hot kind of pain on the right side um and the doctor there was very thorough but she diagnosed me with trigeminal nerve disorder trigeminal neuralgia sorry um which explained the pain i felt across the trigeminal nerve but it didn't explain the blocked nose so she referred me to ENT but that would be a 20-week wait so I'd still be waiting now but I decided because I was really sure that whatever was in my nose was causing the pain in my face I didn't suspect cancer I thought something was sitting on a nerve and causing it distress but so I went private and I was really fortunate to be able to do that I and it was something that I didn't take lightly so it you I asked my parents for help they did

help me but I debated asking them for the longest for like a week I went back and forth um I felt guilty about going private because other people can't and and um and my partner wasn't keen on me going private because we don't have a lot of money um but something in my gut told me to and I just had to um so I did and I met a wonderful consultant, he's been with me now, he's passed me over now to somebody else but he was with me for the longest time and he did a endoscopy, nasal endoscopy, saw that there was a polyp, he called it a polyp in my in my nose and um then uh you know said okay i'll put you back on the nhs now we'll go do an mri ct scan get this sorted out now he i was not concerned i was just happy yeah to be seen i you know say i really thought okay this is the beginning of the end now yeah um and

and i so he yes we got those scans done but it was on the morning of the mri that a nurse said to me very sweetly and casually so we're going to investigate your tumor was, excuse me, I never heard the tumour word before and that I just burst into tears, I was devastated. But then I reasoned with myself and she reasoned with me that tumour just means growth so it could mean anything. So I thought tumour, polyp, perhaps my consultant was just being careful with his language and, you know. So I went through the MRI and then on the 4th of April, I think it was the 4th of April, I got the diagnosis that I had something called adenoid cystic carcinoma, which is quite a rare disease. Usually it occurs in the salivary glands, but mine is in my nasal cavity, and it's gone across the trigeminal nerve,

which is the nerves in your face, into the cavernous sinus, which is a really crucial area. It's where a lot of nerves meet, and it's where the carotid artery is. So that supplies blood to the brain. And so it extended well across the face and around the base of the skull.

And he told me then that the cure rate for this is in the single percentage figures. My goodness, it's such a difficult thing to hear. And I understand that you had surgery a couple of weeks ago, but it was less successful than you hoped for this. And also that you're starting radiotherapy later today but to try Wednesday it's been delayed being delayed but but you will be going ahead with that but getting that diagnosis of terminal cancer um I don't know how you begin to process that and i know you came to us here on women's

art to share that story of trying to process it because others may also have gone through it with a loved one yes so i'm divided because um i realized that it is a possibility and perhaps a likely possibility that it is terminal. Certainly without any treatment I'd have months left to live and I can feel it, the pain increases and my fatigue increases, I feel it growing, so it's not something that I can ignore, that possibility. But there is another part of me that thinks that there's still hope and I'm still riding on that hope. So that, you know, there are drug trials out there. There are people, really clever scientists that can fix these sorts of things there was a man who had the same disease that I have who was cured

they told him he was a goner and he was cured um it turns out it's not exactly the same as mine his cells were behaved in a slightly different place but um but still it um one hopes and I'm so rapidly so half me is rapidly you know contacting consultants across the globe and and seeing what options there are for me and I have a great oncologist who's really on my side and she's working really hard for me as well. So you are still hopeful and I can see a smile come to your face with that as well I think I have to be because I think I just have to be hopeful and and that's why you know partly why I came on here because I hope people listen and go I know who you can contact you know because I I'm sort of blind with this yeah well it's all come so suddenly I mean April feels like it was just um a couple of moments ago to be quite

honest but I know you do have family you do have a four-year-old daughter as well and I was immediately thinking of her and whether you have spoken to her about your diagnosis so she knows that um so she's four I think you said that she she knows that um there is a growth there's something growing in mommy's face that's making mommy it hurts mommy and so the doctors are trying to remove that pain um trying to get that thing because it shouldn't be growing they're trying to get get it out and then mummy will feel better again that's her understanding of it so far but I have been very much thinking and trying to find the right time and the right words to tell her that mummy might die and that is a really difficult thing to have to

say to her because but I think it's really important that I do I think it I think it has to come from me and she has to be really clear that it's not her fault because I think four-year-olds can sort of blame themselves for everything aren't they they think the whole world is all about them so I don't want her to think that it's because I didn't love her enough or something like that. How difficult. So I would be, I think the language I would try and use is, I haven't done it yet and I want to do it at the weekend

because I want her to be around all day. In case she has questions, I want to pass her over to another caregiver and let her worry. So it's finding the right time and the right balance for it, but just letting her know that when I'm gone, that I'm not coming back. I think that needs to be clear. I'm also scared that she will be very fearful for the rest of her life

that something like that could happen to her. And I don't want her to carry that. I want her to just live life. I think it's too much too soon for her. She's so little, of course. Well, Charlotte, why don't we bring in Adrianne Bethley, who's from Macmillan Cancer Support. Adrianne, you've been hearing some of Charlotte's story there.

Just, I so feel for you, Charlotte, and thank you for sharing that. But telling family members must be one of the huge challenges, along with, of course, the medical aspects of the terminal diagnosis. Yeah and I just wanted to say a huge thank you Charlotte for sharing your story that's so brave of you to come on air but you know it's so important because people don't talk about these

really difficult challenging issues do they and I think you know there will be people out there who are listening and are going through similar experiences or, you know, as we've said before, may have been through similar. And I think it is really, really difficult. And particularly for your child, as you say, that's such a complex situation to be in. And I guess, you know, there's certain things that I can recommend to think about, maybe give some advice. But ultimately, I would say, please do reach out for help to anybody who's out there listening or you yourself, Charlotte. So as you know. What is it though, Adrian,

that you would recommend? You've heard what Charlotte's, what's going through her head, these worries of making her daughter fearful or that she did something wrong. You know, that's a child. Of course, people have other family members as well. Yeah, and it's very dependent on the child's other family members as well yeah and it's very

dependent on the child's age and as you said she's so young isn't she so I think there is something about reaching out for support perhaps you know phone that lung cancer support support line speak to one of our advisors we have specialist nurses and there are other sources of support for you I'm sure out there um but really it is about you've got to do what's right for you and what's right for your child and you know your child best don't you but I guess it sounds like you've kind of you're starting to make those plans which is really important it's about giving yourself time to prepare think about what you're going to say how you're going to say it think about some of the questions that might come up I think it's really important to think about the

environment where it's comfortable, what time of day, because children sometimes get really niggly at night time. And, you know, you don't want them going to bed feeling really distressed, do you? So I think it is about being open and honest,

but using simple and clear language and thinking about, you know, the relevant information. Because Charlotte was mentioning there that she really wants it to be her that informs her child. that would you recommend i think that's entirely your choice and you as i say you know yourself and you know your child best um it can be helpful to have other people there sometimes so if you've got a specialist nurse um or you know particularly

specialist palliative care nurse who could come and see you at home and support you through that or if you've got um you mentioned about your partner so I don't know whether you might find it useful to have your partner there so that it's a shared experience and you're all kind of talking about it together um but I don't know what what their understanding views or um with uh I think it would be absolutely essential for her daddy to be there too. But I did read about including a specialist nurse. But I would worry that maybe Polly would blame them. Being a stranger, and then she hears this bad news, maybe there would be a connection then of,

why are you killing my mum? Do you know what I mean? There might be an odd connection that would be made. You're new this is new information they they must be uh related you know yeah yeah yeah that could happen I guess and then she might then mistrust doctors or professionals so it sounds like for you it feels right for you to do that in your own time with Polly doesn't it really but maybe if you wanted to reach out for some support before that and have a conversation with your clinical

nurse specialist about um you know how to go about it um what are the sources of support there are so there may be things like you know that you can follow up uh afterwards so you know some sort of family therapy some counselling things like that that could help polly and help you and her daddy as well and i think it's about not just one conversation you know i think it's about going back and checking again and revisiting the conversation to check her understanding to make sure that she's taken on board and what it is that she needs to know adrian betley is from Macmillan Cancer Support. Thank you so much for coming on

and also to Charlotte for getting in touch. Charlotte, we will stay in touch. I wish you all the best in the coming week as well as you continue with your treatment and also for getting in touch with Women's Hour and sharing your story with our listeners. Message coming in to you. I'm listening to the young woman

talking about her terminal cancer diagnosis. My heart breaks as I had to do the same when my husband was given a terminal diagnosis. I'm also a cancer patient who was given a terminal diagnosis nine years ago. I've been where she is right now twice over. Yes, keep up the hope and continue to advocate for treatment options,

sending all my very best wishes and thoughts for her and her loved ones. And I do want to say that we also have links on our website, on the Woman's Hour website, if you've been affected by any of the issues

that we have been talking about. As some of you getting in touch about other items we've been speaking about this morning. Here was one about feeling empowered or talking about

turning the tables. Here's a story. I was at a music festival a few years ago. Unfortunately, camped very nearby were a group of young people who partied noisily into the early hours. Rather than stay in bed and

getting annoyed, I got up, pulled on some clothes, picked up a chair and went and joined them. I sat down with them saying, I can't sleep because of the noise you're making, so I'm joining your party. The result was they gradually left the party and a good night's sleep was hard. So another on sextortion, actually, is from Kate in West Sussex.

She says, my year seven son has just had an assembly about sextortion and we as parents had an email about the risks to our children. It's sad and frustrating to have these conversations with 12 year olds. 84844 if you would like to get in touch on any of the items that we have been speaking about this morning. Also, I just want to remind you, tomorrow, special extended 90-minute programme,

Women's Hour election debate. Any of the issues you would like them to be speaking about, 84844. My next guest, the singing sensation, Debbie Weilman. During the pandemic, Debbie began uploading her impersonations of Judy Garland. And then they went viral around the world. She has since then performed at New York's Carnegie Hall, released an album and is now making her West End debut as Judy.

She does still have her day job at an optician's, I believe. Yes, that's right. I love the double life. Thank you. Yeah, it doesn't let me get above myself ever. You know, I did this amazing show at Carnegie Hall in December in New York. And then four days later,

I was taking photographs of people's pupils at Specsavers. So, you know, I can never get too fancy. I have this idea, I don't know, kind of of you as Judy Garland going around the optician singing your heart out. But does that happen? Put your chin on that and just look at the light. OK, darling.

Not really. I think there might be a market for it, though. Do you come from a musical family? I do, yeah. My dad is a professional musician. He's got his own band, but he's a psychedelic rock musician. His band are called the Bevis Frond. And my grandmother, his mum was a brilliant pianist and a music teacher. So yeah, yeah, it runs in the family. But did you want to do it then professionally?

Oh, I did. I mean, yes, I had dreams, Nuala, yes. Big dreams. Yeah. I did a performing arts degree at university. I've always sung in bands and stuff like that. And that was what I wanted to do. And when I graduated, I did a few bits and bobs, you know, but it just didn't happen. I had to get a job, you know, or various. And I thought that was it, you know.

And that was fine. You know, I had a good go. I sort of gave up when I was 25 because I needed to earn money and that was that was it you know I and that was fine you know I had a good go I sort of gave up when I was 25 because I needed to earn money and and that was that you know I got married had a little girl and in the pandemic just to cheer up my friends I made some videos on Facebook I decided I'd sing a song a day to cheer up my 600 Facebook friends because I thought some of you were by yourselves, you know, when you're self-isolating and that. And I wouldn't have done it otherwise

because I would have thought it was showy-offy. Look at me, singing a song. But I thought in that situation, I said, oh no, it'd be something nice to do, you know. And I didn't do just Judy. I did all sorts of stuff that I like, but I've always been a huge Judy Garland fan. And on day three, I posted a Judy Garland song and I tagged it to a Judy Garland Facebook group because I thought, well, maybe they'd like it.

I don't know. And then I continued doing a different song every day. It was like 100 days in a row and people just started watching. And it was entirely, I wasn't thinking of that. You know, it was a big surprise and it went a bit viral. And then an agent from America contacted me on Facebook, on Messenger. This is a film. It was just nuts.

And there's me at home in Saffron Walden. And I was making these videos on my phone in my car because we had a neighbour at the time who'd hammer on the wall because he didn't like noise. And so I was like in abandoned car parks at midnight because I had to do it when my daughter went to bed because she would go, Mummy, Mummy, throughout. It was just really bizarre. And it's been amazing. You know, I thought I wasn't going to have that career, you know, and I was all right with it. You know, I tried and meh. And then now it's just, I'm here. I'm a Radio 4. What's going on? Well, we are delighted that you are here on Woman's Hour. But the Judy Garland, I mean, some people are calling it uncanny. You dress, you wear the wig, you do the red lipstick.

And it's because we might know Judy for her songs and, you know, particularly musicals that she was in. But you've got the whole package speaking in the way she speaks, too. What was what was, I don't know, the fascination with her in particular? Well, I saw her first when I was about six years old in Easter Parade. My grandma showed me that. And we were big fans of the musicals. You know, my nana used to put on various VHSs, you know. And she put that on.

And it was just something about Judy that struck me as different is that she's not only a fantastic singer, great dancer, great actress, she was funny. And I think that's what made her a bit different for me and sort of drew me in. And then the minute I expressed interest, I was like, oh, Nana, she's good. Oh, there's lots more, darling. And I had this whole world opened up to me of like classic Hollywood. And I've just always been a fan. And then when I was like 12, I discovered, I've always sung just for the fun of it, but I discovered I could do a sort of impersonation singing wise of her. And I did it for my grandma. I was like, hey, Nana, listen to this. And it was a song from Easter

Parade, actually, the first one I ever tried it was just sort of a fun thing and then when I did my degree you could either do a thesis or put on a show so I chose to write a one-woman show about Judy Garnon because I thought well that would be the most fun what would I like to do I'd like to do this and that was when I sort of practiced talking like her but the the show I do now I don't I'm not like being her the whole way through I'm singing songs as her but then I'm talking as myself and talking about her and like interesting stuff that I found out and uh yes it's a reimagining of some certain things as well. How different is your singing voice to Judy's? Yeah, my own singing voice does sound different.

Yeah, because your speaking voice is different. Yeah. Hello, I'm Judy Garland. You're right. She wasn't from Walthamstow, Judy Garland. Grand Rapids. But no, I mean, I've got a similar range, which is why I can do it

because we've got a very similar singing range. But yeah, I like it's fun for me. I really love it. And it was something that people just sort of started. That's what sort of got attention, really, I guess. People are like, oh, wow, I love that. Can you do another one? And I was like, oh, yeah, all right. Brilliant. It was just really nice to have this connection with people when we were all sort of cut off. But what about Judy? You know, when I was preparing to speak to you yesterday, I actually found her obituary in The New York Times, which is like a wonderful read through her whole life and career.

But for Manny, she was quite a tragic figure, even though we were just singing Get Happy. Well, that's actually something I like to address in what I do. I think she's got this, you know, the whole Judy myth is all tragedy, tragedy. And, you know, the film that came out a few years ago, it all focuses on the tragic aspect of everything. But actually, if you talk to people who actually knew her, they all said how great she was she wasn't a tragic person if you knew her she was very funny she was very witty she was a great talent she was really full of life and really full of energy and fun and I think that's something that should be celebrated more I don't know why everyone always harps on on the tragic I think you should really look there's far better things to look at with her like her sense of humor her, her talent, her songs, all of that.

I think that's much better to look at, which is what I try and celebrate. Let's talk about Carnegie Hall. There's always that joke, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. But you performed there where Judy did herself. What was that like?

It was amazing. It was honestly just crazy. I was, 38 yeah I thought my chance was gone you know and yeah for the first time you ever sing in New York for it to be at Carnegie Hall it's a bit mad I would say yeah yeah it was just fantastic I mean the place has got such an aura to it and it's was brilliant. And the crowd were fantastic. The band were brilliant. It was just such an amazing night.

And then... With rave reviews, I just want to let people know. Thank you. Well, you know. But yeah, it was brilliant. And then I went back there December just gone to do a Christmas show, which was amazing because I turned 40 in December. So it was like a birthday present to myself, really.

But was it from being online, sticking up those songs a day and the agent from America that that got you to Carnegie Hall? Literally, it's all stemmed from me sitting in my car, filming myself on an iPhone in lockdown going, hello, right, I'm going to do another song today. Literally, it's come from that. I want to read a message that's come in. Good morning.

I met Debbie at the Palladium on the night that Barry Manilow cancelled his concert. I noticed her glamorous shoes and went over to ask her about them. We got chatting. She told me about her Judy Garland tribute music show and gave me a CD and a flyer for her show at the Ambassadors Theatre. I will be there. Oh, well, how very nice. I know who that is then.

It's a lovely lady called Sabina. There you go, Sabina getting a shout out. But it is, I'm Still Here is the name of the West End debut that you're going to have on June 30th. Yes, that's right. It's only less than two weeks away. But yeah, my West End debut,

which is very exciting. And something that makes the show a bit different, because obviously I'm a massive Judy Garland fan. If you want to listen to Judy Garland, I mean, you listen to her, she's the best. But what makes my show a bit different, and you know, why should come and see it, please, is I will be doing some classic Judy Garland songs. But I've also, we recorded an album as well, which was nuts. At MGM Studios, that was. But we recorded an album where it's imagined songs. So it's songs that Judy never actually got the chance to do,

done in a style as if she did, orchestrated by Steve Orich, who won a Grammy for August 8th in Jersey Boys. And we worked together. He was fantastic. You know, as a female who's younger and less experienced in the realm of all of this, I was worried that I might not be listened to. He was fantastic. It was a real collaborative thing.

And we've worked out these arrangements of songs like Back to Black by Amy Winehouse, for instance, but done as if Judy Garland had done it. Such a pleasure having you in. Best of luck on, although you don't need to break a leg, on June 30th in London at the Ambassadors Theatre. She will be Judy. Thank you so much, Debbie Wallman and Rich Bates. Now, I want to turn to the formidable Tinessa Kaur.

Tinessa has become the first Sikh woman to win the prestigious Young Pro Bono Barrister of the Year Award 2024. But her journey to the bar has not been easy. At just 17, while studying for her A-levels,

she was made homeless. Now 32 and a pupil barrister, Tanessa is hoping to inspire others from under-representative backgrounds to pursue a career in the profession. Tanessa, welcome to Woman's Hour and congratulations on the award. Hi, thank you for having me and thank you so much.

Why is pro bono work so important to you? I think as a Sikh, I see it as my duty to do pro bono work because we have something called sirvar, which is selfless service. So as a Sikh, that means a lot to me. It's my duty to do CIRVA so actually I don't see pro bono work as extracurricular or anything extra. For me I'm just fulfilling my duty as a Sikh. But I understand you were dedicating around 30 hours a week to it? Yes that's due to I was working around evenings and weekends around my job that I was doing last year. And I have an amazing team behind me

that helped me and supported me as well. And my co-founders from Seek Lawyers Association, Seek Lawyers Association, Simran and Jaskidat. So with them and the team, it was possible to commit that many hours to pro bono work. So that is where you are now. And obviously with this prestigious award that has been given to you. But if we go back, you grew up in Leicester,

your parents separated and your dad, I believe, spent some time in prison and you ended up homeless for a period of time when you were that young age. What do you remember about it? Because I suppose it would have been around this time of year because you were trying to do your A-levels. Yes, it was very difficult for me because I had nowhere to go. I was on the streets and stayed in the park and just was looking for food and just thinking I still need to get up and go to college tomorrow because I knew I wanted to go to university at that point

and I knew I wanted to study law because I was doing law at A-level. And I think for me, especially being a woman on the streets and coming from a South Asian family, we were always taught about self-respect, something called izzat and protecting that at all costs. And so being a woman on the streets, I think that was my fear is protecting that and making sure that wasn't taken away from me. Well, it hasn't been because you now have a pupillage, but it did take nine years to get there. What kept you going?

I knew that I wanted to be a barrister and I didn't want to do anything else. And I think I knew I had the work experience and people that I had worked with, my managers and from various different organisations, mentors I had. They all said to me, you're going to be a fantastic barrister when you make it. But you've got to keep going, you've got to persevere. And I think for me, I couldn't see myself doing anything else. And I wanted to help others. And the only way I knew how to speak and become a voice for others was through being a barrister. And so you persevered working for the local authority, for example, over care proceedings, cases,

and then set up the first Sikh Lawyers Association in 2020. Why did you feel that was necessary? Prior to the Sikh Lawyers Association, there was no organisation within the legal profession that specifically were for Sikhs and and to promote our faith and support members of the community within our faith group there was the Christian lawyers association the Hindus lawyers association Muslim one but nothing for us that actually helped us assisted us but also um it was important so we could

provide advice and guidance to um regulatory bodies like the bar standards board on um thing simple things like um a gudwara is a gudwara it's not people often call a gudwara a temple but actually it's not a temple it's just like with a mosque you don't call a mosque a muslim temple and so i think it was quite interesting people didn't know that before where me and my co-founder were appointed as um part of the executive team of the bsb religion and belief task force and so we were able to advise on those issues so raising awareness um of Sikhism but are there many other young Sikh women in your profession now there are I was surprised that when we set up the organization how many people came out um and how many Sikhs there actually were

and I wish I had known that prior because I would have liked to have spoken to someone a mentor or someone that belonged to the same faith group as me perhaps to advise me on the struggles I may have faced coming into the profession as an ethnic woman. What do you think was the number one struggle as an ethnic woman? I think for me it may have been my adversity that I faced and also the grades I got at A-levels and GCSEs because of my circumstances I went through. I think everybody had, mostly, I shouldn't say everyone because not everyone did, but majority had great A-levels and GCSE grades. And also I got a 2.1 at university. These days, everyone's getting a first class degree. So I was up against that kind of competition.

So it was really difficult for me. And it was expressing and not being afraid to express about my life experiences and why it makes me a good barrister. We wish you all the success. Thank you. Vanessa Corr, the first Sikh woman to win the prestigious Young Pro Bono Barrister of the Year Award

2024. I do want to remind you again that there is time to get in touch with us with your questions that you might like to put to the main political parties ahead of tomorrow's Women's Hour election debate. It is a specially extended programme

so that will be from 10 until 11.30. And the ways to get in touch, all the usual ways, 84844 on text, on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website or a voice note. I'd love to hear your voice on WhatsApp.

03700 100 444. I will talk to you then tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Kavita Puri and in Three Million from BBC Radio 4, I hear extraordinary eyewitness accounts that tell the story for the first time of the Bengal famine which happened in British India in the middle of the Second World War. At least three million people died. It's one of the largest losses of civilian life on the Allied side and there isn't a museum, a memorial or even a plaque to those who died. How can the memory of three million people just disappear?

Eighty years on, I track down first-hand accounts and make new discoveries and hear remarkable stories and explore why remembrance is so complicated in Britain, India and Bangladesh. Listen to Three Million on BBC Sounds. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.