Woman's Hour - Sharon D Clarke; Gender bias in school books; Outliving your mum - Claire's Story

Episode Date: December 18, 2020

An audio adaptation of Peter Pan with music will be launched on Christmas Eve in support of Great Ormond Street Children’s Hospital, that will feature a host of actors - Olivia Colman, Bertie Carvel, Kenneth Branagh, Jane Horrocks, Clive Rowe, and Sharon D Clarke. She joins Jane to talk about her role as The Narrator, who in this version is Wendy’s great granddaughter.A new study into gender stereotypes suggests that they’re still widespread in 2020 and causing life-long harm. The Fawcett Society has spent the last 18 months gathering evidence as part of their Gender Stereotype Commission and they say the problem persists in terms of parenting, education and the commercial sector. Jane talks to Sam Smethers from the Fawcett Society and to Sharon Hague from the education resources specialist Pearson which has contributed to the report and subsequently changed the teaching material if offers to schools.How does it feel to reach the age your Mum was when she died? Jo Morris has been hearing from women who feel a clock ticking. Their stories are all different but they have one thing in common – none of them have felt able to talk about this before. They didn’t want to worry their loved ones or vocalise these dark thoughts. They describe their fears as well as the joy of ordinary life and the freedom that comes from realising that you are not your mother. Today, Claire's story. We meet two more women from the Woman's Hour Power List: Our Planet. Judy Ling-Wong is the founder and Honorary President of the Black Environment Network, and Zarina Ahmad is a Climate Trainer at CEMVO Scotland. They've both dedicated their work to making the environmental sector a safer and more inclusive place for ethnic minority groups, and they join Jane to discuss the gains made and the work still to do.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast from Friday, the 18th of December 2020. Hi there, good morning. Welcome to the programme today. We have star of stage and screen Sharon D. Clarke with us. We'll discuss gender stereotypes in children's school books. Those intrepid little boys and the little girls still a bit scared of bugs? They're all still out there. Incredibly. And we'll talk to two women who are working really hard to make the environmental sector a more inclusive and more diverse space.

As ever, you can contact us on social media at BBC Women's Hour or you can text the programme 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard even message rate. So she can join us now. I think you're at home as well, aren't you actually? Sharon D. Clarke, good morning to you. How are you? Good morning, good morning. Most of us are at home. Most of us are at home. Yes, I'm in my office, my lovely, looking out at the day, hoping that the sun will shine. OK, I must admit, I'm keeping a weather eye on the scaffolders opposite me. I need to be focused, absolutely focused. There's so much we could talk to you about, Sharon.

And I suppose we should really start with what you're on to talk about, which is this audio version of Peter Pan, which is coming out. I think it's available from Christmas Eve and it's raising money for Great Ormond Street so tell us a little bit about that first and about the role you play in it. Well Charlie Cameron had this fantastic idea of doing something because nothing was happening and Great Ormond Street is just such a wonderful wonderful place with the work that they do, the essential work that they do. And so she was like, you know, let's do Peter Pan. But we're, it's not an audio book, it's a full audio play. There's been Annabel Brown has done a fantastic musical score and there are just some wonderful, wonderful performances, performance on it. Sean McKenna has done the adaptation and some of the children from Great Ormond Street Hospital are playing the Lost Boys.

So it's really fantastic that we've got people involved from every kind of quarter. You know, Kenneth Branagh's playing Hook and Bertie Carville's playing Mr. Darling. Joanna Riding's playing Mrs. Darling, Clive Rose playing Speaks Me. Oh, this is a real deal then, isn't it? Yeah, it's a full-on... OK, all right. Yeah, it's a full-on audio play. Right. Good stuff.

And it comes out Christmas Eve. And I play... Sorry, I forgot. I play Wendy's great-granddaughter. So I'm the narrator. You're the narrator. Actually, before I go on, let's just hear a quick clip of you being the narrator.

Here we go. When Captain Hook's cannonball whizzes past Peter and the darling children, the whoosh blows them all in different directions. Wendy and Tinkerbell are blown towards Peter's home. This is at the centre of a clearing in the wood, which enjoys all four seasons at once. You will never find the entrance to his home, though, unless you look very carefully at seven hollow trees dotted around the glade.

From one such tree, one boy, one lost boy, is just emerging. There we go, that is Sharon D. Clarke narrating that full version of Peter Pan, which is available on Christmas Eve, and it's just three quid actually, you can get it on iTunes, and everything is going to Great Ormond Street. So Sharon, if you don't mind, let's pop back then and over the course of your last year. You were, I think, on Broadway in March. And then what happened? What were you doing there, first of all? I was doing Caroline or Change, going for my Broadway debut and we were just about to do our final dress rehearsal on the Thursday to do our first preview on the Friday and on the Thursday the news came in that Broadway

was closing because of coronavirus and so we didn't get to do our dress rehearsal we didn't get to do the show and I came back home to absolutely nothing like everybody else. And it was just mad. Caroline or Change had been a really big success in Britain, hadn't it? Award winning for you. For anyone who didn't see it, just tell us about that show. What is it about? It's quite a complicated and yet simple little show. It's called Caroline or Change.

And the change deals with Carolineoline or change and the change deals with caroline changing or her resistance to change the change that is happening around her in the world so we're at a time where the civil rights movement is just gaining momentum kennedy's just been shot so the world is a bit in flux and the change also deals with the fact that the young boy in her household she's's a maid in a Jewish household. The young boy keeps leaving pocket change in his trousers. And his mum tells him that if he if he doesn't look after the change and put it away properly, any change that Caroline finds in his pocket, she can keep. And at first she resists that. But then she starts to take the change because his nickels and quarters and dimes are actually food for her family.

They pay for the dentist, the glasses. So she takes the change quite, quite resistantly until they have a Hanukkah and he gets a $20 bill from his grandfather and leaves it in his pocket and then there's that dilemma as to whether or not caroline takes it because she knows it's a present and she does and then all hell breaks loose right and that's where everything starts to unravel you're right it's such a clever clever show and are you going to get the chance to do it on broadway then do you know well god willing yes um i'm one of the lucky ones or us with caroline or change of one of the lucky ones that with roundabout they have said that they want the show to continue so when lockdown first happened and a lot of shows closed a lot of those shows are not coming back so i'm in a very good position i know at some point next year i will be doing the show the dates have been pushed back since lockdown started you know it was first

of all it was going to be July then they were talking about September then they talked January then March now we're talking August but at least we're still talking about putting it on so yeah I'll still get a chance you're having conversations at least and what psychologically what was that like for you so all that adrenaline the big build-up to this amazing opportunity for you which you richly deserve on Broadway and then this it's like a balloon just deflating what did you do um we all went to the the nearest bar and got slathered actually to be completely honest I mean we your immediate reaction. That was our immediate reaction. I mean, there wasn't a lot else that we could do.

First of all, the thing for me was dealing with the kids because we've got six boys in the show and they were just gutted. Of those six, some of them are old Broadway hands at that young age and for some of them it was their first show. And so, you you know they were just in bits so dealing with them and trying to say to them look we'll be all right and we'll come through this and we will get a chance to do this again and then getting back home and just crying going oh Susie I can't believe this it's all finished it's all ah but then just having to

get on with it because it's not a personal thing you know it's not as if it was just our show that closed when it happens to everyone you have to think this is happening to a whole industry and what was what was quite good about it happening on broadway that the way it did is that broadway closed down as one so there was this unified decision where everybody knew where they were as opposed to over here where we had some people trying to go on and some people going under and everybody not really knowing what was happening. It was just great that they came out as a community. So, you know, it was difficult. I didn't have any work until July. I got my first voiceover coming in July. So those months between March and July were, they were rough. They were they were rough they were rough but your

partner Susie is also in the creative arts as well isn't she so I guess she's an associate director at the Kiln Theatre so when when it all happened over here they just went into firefighting mode and Susie was part of the freelancers task force and on lots of zoom meetings about how we go forward what can we do all of that yeah and it's it's tough for everybody including people like you who are absolutely at the top of your game olivier award winning and still this year these months have just been a slog and and a lot of stress and worry for it? Well, I'm lucky, you know, I've been working now since July. I've had some voiceovers and stuff and Susie's at the kiln. So we've had something coming in, but you know,

there are friends of ours who we know have lost their homes. There are friends who are working in Sainsbury's or at Heathrow airport or driving cars or not doing anything at all. And actually I'm really feeling for the graduates who are just coming into the business and what this means for them because there is nothing and if experienced people aren't working I'm just thinking about people at the other end who aren't even going to get a looking or a chance at the moment because there is nothing there nothing there at all and they're very yeah what about um i'm just thinking about the range of

stuff you've done so death of a salesman for example uh you've been on massive television series like holby city people will know you from doctor who what actually is the thing that thrills you the most if you if you were to really ask you what is the bit you revel in or think about most after you've done it, what would you say? It's got to be the singing. It's song. It's sharing that with people and having that kind of exchange when you're singing. In the moment.

In the moment. One of the things that people always say to me is, oh, God, I wish I could sing. So to have that ability and to be able to share it is wonderful. But the medium, I love it all. I'm not one of these people who just goes, I'm an actor and, you know, I do straight plays. I love it all from the kids voiceover. I did a thing called Tiny Wonders, which is about showing the macro world to kids and getting kids to look at things closely, you know, and look at little tiny bugs and little tiny plants and dew drops. And I love all of it. As long as I'm performing in some kind of way and sharing that energy, whether that is through song or through voiceover or through a play or through through dance sometimes when back in the day when I used to dance um I I love the industry I love

the medium and it's just different processes you know what I mean it's like a technique that you might use a theater and a technique that you have for telly, do you know what I mean? Finding how you use those processes, but the medium as a whole, I just love it. Bring it on in whatever format. Well, I really hope things do come back for you. They will, Sharon, and we've all got to be positive.

You'll have a brilliant 2021. I think a lot of us are pinning our hopes on 2021 at the moment. All the very best to you. Have a lovely Christmas. Thank you very much. We are going to be doing what we do. Yes, exactly. And being grateful for what we can do, we should all say.

Sharon D. Clark, and don't forget that Peter Pan, it comes out on Christmas Eve, the 24th, and it's on iTunes, raising money for Great Ormond Street. Now, when I learned to read back in the day, in the late 60s, early 70s, we used Peter and Jane. And Peter did stuff with his dad and Jane, not quite so much. She did a fair bit of washing up in the kitchen with her mum. And you would imagine that's changed. Well, maybe. The equality organisation, the Fawcett Society, has been looking at gender stereotypes, including in contemporary educational material.

And you'll hear from somebody who works for the educational publishers Pearson in a moment. First up, here is Sam Smethers from the Fawcett Society. Well, what we find is that attitudes to boys and girls, women and men, that fundamentally is something that we read across all of our work, you know, it's whether it be attitudes to women in power, the jobs that women do, you know, the pay that they get, you know, the way that caring is undervalued, it's just about everything, really. So it seems like one of the fundamental underlying causes of gender inequality are the stereotyped attitudes we hold. And where does that begin? It begins with very young children, you know, begins in the womb, actually.

So going back to look at 0-7s and what happens to children in particular is something we felt was quite important to do if we wanted to understand the harms that we cause later on, and actually what we can do to challenge and change that. All this starts then at school, Sam, and with the sort of material children are shown when they're very, very young. And Pearson, the educational group, were one of the publishers that got involved with all these new ideas of yours. So tell us what you were concerned about in terms of what children were seeing. Well, what you find when you review education

literature for children, as we've done in this commission, is that women are often very much stereotyped within that material. There are very few black and minority ethnic characters. Women are very rarely seen as science figures, for example. You actually look at the way language is used in that material, even the way exam questions are written. You know, with Pearson, we've been doing things like changing the way they think about the way we present exam questions for children who are older. So really, it's about language. It's about stereotyped imagery. It's about assumptions that you're replicating through the examples you're giving in that literature, through the stories that you're telling. So that is Sam Smithers from the Fawcett Society.

I mentioned Pearson, the educational publishers, so did Sam there. So here is Sharon Haig from that publisher. So we conducted a review of the sorts of materials that you would see aimed at very young children. And the sorts of examples we saw was for example two children going on a camping trip you know the boy is an avid bug collector he spends his time going collecting spiders to scare his sister who you know really doesn't like camping and doesn't like insects so you see the boy cast as really adventurous, daring, enjoying the outdoors,

whereas the girl is cast more in a caring role, you know, preparing for the adventurers to come back, organising the trip. Can I just stop you there? When was this written and published? So this is an example of a book aimed at very young children that you know is available currently in the market. You don't know when it was written? I don't have the precise date but you know it will have been in the last perhaps five years or so. And it is aimed at children of what age? It'd be children that are beginning to learn to read. So, you know, very sort of five, six year olds. And that does seem actually on the face of it ludicrous, quite alarming, actually, that that is being that narrative is still being fed to children.

Anything else? So that was a really good example. And I think we absolutely agree with with all of our authors and editors to really address this issue in our resources and textbooks. We think it's the first of its kind commitment from any learning organisation. Yeah, but just to be clear, the example you gave us, that was one of your books, was it? Yes, it's an example of a sort of a Pearson book that has been well no not a sort of a Pearson book a Pearson book that is currently out there and being read to and by very young children. Which is why we've taken this commitment to make sure that we have the gender equality guidelines which as I say are first in its kind commitment of any learning

company. Yes, but that doesn't mean that the book you've talked about is going to be withdrawn, or does it? So what we're planning to do is use these guidelines with our authors and our editors to really make sure that all of the resources that we publish going forward, you know, really make sure that we tackle these gender stereotypes because we know that they do hit children hard and we're going to you know really make sure that we not just kind of neutralize everything but it's really about flipping stereotypes to make sure that children boys or girls see themselves in different roles, you know, demonstrating kind of different characteristics so that children's choices aren't limited.

Yeah, because boys can be stereotyped in just the same way as girls. Let's go back to that camping example then. Would it now be written that the boy is a little bit scared of spiders and his sister is the one who's going out there collecting bugs and chucking them down her brother's T-shirt. That's right. So you might actually reverse those typical sort of stereotypes to really kind of challenge thinking and make both boys and girls feel that, you know, there's a whole range of different behaviours that are appropriate.

It all does seem, forgive me, but it sounds quite... Bearing in mind today's young people have very real and active conversations about gender fluidity and about being non-binary. You've got to catch up with all this, haven't you? And it doesn't sound as though you're really on track with it all quite yet. I think it's not just about, you know, one part of society. I think this is something that across, you know, home, toys, advertising, you know, a whole raft of different aspects of society that there's still more work to do. So we have made good progress as a society, but there's still more to do. And think you know the Fawcett Society Commission the the guidelines that we've um adopted are all you know really positive practical things you know this this job will never be done we need to continue to tackle it and address it

to make sure that every child you know can reach their full potential and that's what this is all about you know making sure that we're not limiting children's learning choices we're not limiting how they feel um they can behave you know that they have to conform to a particular way of behaving and ultimately that all sorts of employment choices are available and open to them well that's interesting, isn't it? That's Sharon Haig from Pearson, the educational publishers. And I'd love more from you on this one. Here's Rachel.

I grew up reading Peter and Jane as well. I was encouraged to study something called parent craft for a CSE. There were no boys in my class at all. No wonder women of my age are still angry. We've had years of it, says Rachel, who slightly you can tell heading towards Tether's End on this matter. Claire says we've got to agree. We've got to ensure a proper, non-biased, stereotypical content in any instructive book for children. However, I did grow up learning to read with Janet and John, in my case, and the Famous Five. And I'm a passionate feminist

and a champion of equal opportunities. I'm glad to hear it. The Famous Five. Yes, of course, George was a member of The Famous Five and Anne was the rather soppy young sister, wasn't she, in The Famous Five? Didn't do a lot. Yes, more please on 84844 on gender stereotyping. Can't believe it's still so prevalent in children's books today. It's a bit of a concern. Really want to draw your attention to the fact that on December the 28th,

I know it seems like a lifetime away, but it'll come sooner than you might think. We have a Women in Space program for that edition of Women's Hour. And I can't believe that during the course of that program, we have already recorded it, I should say,

in the interest of transparency. I get to speak to NASA's chief flight director, who's a fantastic woman, Holly Ridings, who's in charge of the Artemis program. She's the woman who will put another woman on the moon within the next four years or so, fingers crossed. So that's December the 28th. Really, really worthwhile having a listen to that if that's one of your interests. If you're a fan of podcasts, Dawn French, no less, is our guest on this week's Fortunately. That is the podcast for the befuddled, presented by two befuddled women, Fee Glover and me. And if you haven't ever heard a podcast, this is as good a place as any to start. You can find that on BBC Sounds coming soon to BBC Radio 4. Now, we've been asking women how it feels to get to the age your mum was when she died.

Now, this is a really interesting conversation with a woman called Claire, whose mum died when she was just 11. Exactly the age her daughter is now. Our reporter Jo Morris asked Claire about happy memories of her mother. Lots of memories of summer in the garden and in my memory it was always really hot and really sunny, I'm sure that wasn't the case, but playing in the garden and her bringing out, you know jugs of lemonade and yeah having friends around my parents were quite sociable so we used to always have other families around to play or to stay or for dinner yeah and she was always there bringing out bringing out drinks bringing out refreshments making sure everybody was happy and having a nice time she's good at refreshments

yeah absolutely often the way when you're a kid there isn't it you remember that's important right i remember the biscuits or the drinks yeah yeah oh she sounds lovely what was her name jillian or jill to all her friends yeah so you've got any photos yes so i have so i've got so this is the photo album, which doesn't go all the way. But I found this picture of her here, which was actually a couple of years before she died. She was possibly sick at the time, but not, you know, going through treatment. Well, she's with your dad, isn't she? Yes.

And were they going for a dance? Yes, yes. So they were going to some formal dinner. So that was her in her posh frock. I mean, that's a good dress. Yeah. Silvery blue, ice blue, matching eyeshadow. Yeah, yeah, totally.

How old was your mum when she died? So she was 42 and I was 11 when she died. And how old are you now? I am turning 41 in October. How have you been feeling? I guess I have been thinking a lot more about her because I am now kind of in the same time of my life that she was when she was unwell so I can relate to her in a way that I never could before. She was sick for a couple of years and she was terminally ill. She was in a hospice for many months. I'm not sure it was potentially around about a year. Did you visit her in the hospice? Yeah yeah every day after school yeah every day. My dad who worked in London which was a good kind of over an hour commute

used to leave work gosh he must have left work at half two or something to commute back from london to where we lived pick up me pick up my brother which was like you know another hour round trip and then drive to the hospice and we'd spend the whole evening there with my mum do our homework there and have dinner and everything so what sort of feelings have been bubbling up for you then, Claire? I'm kind of reliving a few more of the feelings that I had at the time. Yeah, I guess I'm just thinking about it a lot more and feeling sad about what she went through and what my dad went through. And then I look at my daughter and imagine, again,

what me and my brother went through at the time. I guess when I was at school everything was pretty normal but everything outside of school it was all that you could really think about. You wrote to us in your email, your lovely email, you wrote to us you said you were finding coming up to the impending milestone when your mum died frightening. Yeah there's something unnatural, isn't there, about being older than your parents? For me, it seems perfectly rational that I shouldn't live to an age older than my mum. Throughout my life, when I've made big life choices, I guess at the back of my head, I've been, well, I'm only going to live to 42. That just sounds really silly, but it's been such a big landmark for my whole life the fact that I might get to 42 and then and then keep living and and live to see

an age that my mother never did feels very strange even when I got together with my husband I remember having thoughts back then it would be so selfish to get together with this person who I love because I would be impacting them with all this grief when I die at 42. It was just ridiculous. Did you tell your husband? No. No. So you never said, I'll marry you, but... No, I don't think so.

You'd better look around after 42. Exactly. You'll be fine because you'll still be quite young when you'll be a young widower and uh and you'll meet somebody else I know I don't know I think I haven't spoken to him about it because I know it's totally crazy did you try talking to people about it when you were younger or no not really children generally don't know what to say I don't know it felt like a bit of a big secret. I don't think that any of my friends were told the full extent of what was happening or encouraged to talk to me about it. It just felt like not a topic to talk about. How old are your kids now?

My daughter is 10, but she's approaching her 11th birthday. Yes, and my son is 8. So your daughter is incredibly close to the age you were when your mum died. How conscious are you of that? Very much so. My daughter looks a lot like I did at her age. So I look at her and I do see myself really silly things, like she won't brush her hair and we seem to have probably a very normal conversation in the mornings about please

will you just brush your hair and then it reminds me that when I was her age my mum was already in hospital and there was no mother there to brush my hair. Do you know much about your granny? Um, no. I never met her. No. It's difficult to explain her because I can't explain her as a woman. I can only explain her... As a mum. ..what I knew of her as a mum. Yeah, exactly. So I can't really say... Yeah, it's difficult. She is almost the age of the age that her mum died. Yeah, and I'm the age of when her mum died

and when she... I'm her when her mum died. Very confusing. Yeah. I am her when her mum died. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And do you talk about it much? Not really. No. And I was also going to show you this one because it's got me in it. But that's me and my mum. Again, I'm guessing that was probably when she was 40. Probably my age, actually. That's probably 40 and I was probably nine or something.

In the photograph, I'm smiling. And I guess now when I look at it, I realise that I wasn't to know what was coming up. So it's a bit sad in that respect. It was before my mum got sick and before we knew that she was going to die. It's still so raw, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So what else have you got here?

When we got engaged and started thinking about the wedding, that was one of many big landmark times in my life that made me think a lot about my mum because she wouldn't be there. Again it felt like a happy time in my life that was a bit tainted with sadness because it made me think a lot more about her and missing her. So quite a few weeks after telling my dad that we were engaged he kind of casually mentioned the fact that he still had my mum's wedding dress and so he literally sent it in normal post not registered not not wrapped in any particular way or whatever the box could have fallen apart it was in the box

that it had been put in after their wedding he hadn't even wrapped it in anything I think even before I'd seen it I decided I was going to wear it anyway let me show you this so that was that's my mum and dad on their wedding day loving the 70s hair yeah I know they have matching hairstyles and then so here we go and then that was me with the same dress oh you could be twins couldn't you so what did it feel like when you were wearing her dress how did you just really good really good I think it was the closest I could get to feeling like she was involved and that she was there and that she was a part of the day and she was included that the day had a bit of her personality because it was her dress.

Have you still got the dress? Yes, yes, although I've actually packed it away properly and had it vacuum sealed so that my daughter can wear it one day. Wouldn't that be ridiculous? How do you think you'll spend your birthday? I don't think that I will be making any big celebration of being 42 so no probably just want to spend time with with my family with my kids I guess my 43rd birthday will probably be the strangest the biggest to be on a part of my life that she

never lived I think will be difficult. Especially right now, I have a connection with her that I can look at my daughter and imagine how she felt looking at me. When I reach 43 and I'm older than her, then I'm going through a life that she never lived and I will be experiencing things that I can't ever look back and think of her in those moments. And strangely, she will be forever frozen in her early 40s, and I will, fingers crossed, be older than that, which is just quite difficult, actually.

What does that feel like? I think it just feels like I'm moving further away from her. There's no template, is there? No, no. Do you think in a strange kind of way you'll be able to relax a bit or feel free? I don't think I will do this, but I can imagine people in this situation might go slightly off the rails. Yeah.

Are you sure you're not going to go off the rails I'm pretty certain I'm not an off the rails kind of person that is Claire um there's some lovely details in that interview from uh Joe Morris especially the bits about the wedding dress uh just being stuffed in the post. And Claire's daughter was great as well. So our thanks to Claire and her daughter and to reporter Jo, who's doing a wonderful job with those interviews. And hopefully there'll be more to come over the course of the next few months. We've done some already. You can find those on BBC Sounds, conversations with Titania and Beth and Rachel.

Now, the gender stereotyping in children's school books has got you going a bit, actually. A listener here says, we've been careful about the books young children have for the last 40 years. Has that person been shipwrecked? That was Sharon Haig from Pearson. Another contributor, I was challenging gender stereotypes from the start of my teaching career in 1982. I cannot believe things still haven't moved on. And from Abby, it's shocking to hear how prevalent the children's book stereotypes still are. My son's five. We're quite lucky he's in a really diverse school in East London, but they do struggle with getting new books.

We do a lot of fundraising throughout the year to support the school. However, a lot of books in schools must be incredibly old. So I'm not surprised these ideas are still hanging about. 84844 if you want to get involved in that one. Now let's have some positivity in the form of two more contributors from the Women's Hour Power List Our Planet. That's the Women's Hour Power List for 2020, of course. Judy Ling Wong is the founder and honorary president of the Black Environment Network. Zarina Ahmed is climate trainer at CEMVO Scotland. Both are really working hard to make the environmental sector a more inclusive

place. Welcome to you both. Zarina, first of all, good morning to you. How are you? Good morning. How are you? I'm well, thank you. Can we just start, actually, I said we were going to be positive, but let's start with a somewhat negative thing that actually happened to you at an environmental conference and I think stirred some thoughts in you, didn't it? Just tell us a little bit about that, Zarina. So, yeah, it happened, God, I would say about 10 years ago or even more than 10 years ago. It was actually a Huston. So I'd gone along to hear a member of the Green Party speak. And obviously at Hustons, you have MPs or councillors that are there to represent their parties and to try to get you to sell on themselves.

So basically trying to tell you to vote for them. So I'd gone along thinking that, OK, this is a party. The Green Party is the one that I'm aligned to, the one that I'm going to potentially vote for. They've got the same values as me. So I thought, yeah, I was really looking forward to it. And I went along and I went into the room and the gentleman in question was, he looked over at me and I thought, oh my God, he recognizes me,

knows me from somewhere, little old me from East Asia, sat on the table and again, he looked over at me and I'm getting all quite flustered and quite excited because I thought, you know, he's recognizing me from somewhere. And then he opens his mouth and says, your kind don't grow, do they? And at that moment, in my head, a hundred different permutations went on. Does he mean I'm a woman?

Because that's what I think I am. Does he mean I'm from East Asia? And he knows I'm not from Glasgow. Has he heard me speak? And he knows I'm not Scottish and I'm from the northeast of England. So all of these things were going on in my head. And it was only when the rest of the room went like that. And we should say, of course, I mean, that's a deeply offensive thing to have said. The guy isn't here to defend himself. So we I wasn't there. So I don't quite know what happened.

Nor are the Green Party here either, we should say, of course. But it goes without saying, that was a stupid remark and fatuous and ill-thought-out comment to make to you. What did it make you decide to do, though, Zarina? So what I did, it was inside my head, I suppose, I started to think about the landscape and the environment that I was around, like my professional work. And I'm thinking, OK, maybe we're not in this world where I thought we were all integrated and everyone was equal. And maybe it's time I looked around and realized what the reality is, that there is, that the environmental sector was so white and there was so little diversity in the environmental sector. So it made me

trying to pursue some kind of race equality work in this area. Right. And you've done so, we should say, and congratulations on that. Judy Ling Wong, founder of the Black Environment Network. What started you in your work here? Black Environment Network works to highlight issues of race in order to unlock the full potential of multicultural environmental participation. In the 21st century, you know, within which we see our lives through a scientific lens, if you look at the biological sciences, with the advance of knowledge of DNA, it has abandoned plant and animal classifications through appearance. The same needs to happen with how we see human beings in society. We may have features that look different and have different colored skin, but our DNA tells us we are one race, human race. Humans created different cultures as we wandered across

the earth, but we come from one common source. But the driving force for multicultural environmental participation is so relevant right now, because in the most practical terms, seeing the world through a different lens beyond racism is really important. With the present climate emergency, we need all hands on deck. Inclusion will protect all of us. You know, the people in this country that the UK calls ethnic minorities are actually the ethnic majorities of the world, with the white population making up only 11%. Yes, we do need to remember that, of course we do. And we should also say that so-called minority ethnic groups in Britain actually are more likely to be adversely

affected by climate change globally, aren't they, Judy? Absolutely. Our so-called minorities are local and global people. And it's interesting that Cloud Power Horizons did a research piece recently that actually showed that the minorities in this country have a higher level of commitment to climate change because they identify with the most drastic impact of climate change in the world as well as here. What was the environmental sector like when you founded BEN? Because this was the late 1980s, wasn't it? I do imagine things look very different then, Judy. Exceptionally different. The environment sector then was very much dominated by purely nature conservation aims so that if you were not interested in being devoted to nature, volunteering for

it and so on, even if you were a white person, they didn't take any notice. People was not on the agenda. So one of the achievements of Ben is to bring people onto the agenda of the environmental sector. And we now have a paradigm that is more about a two way street, people for nature and nature for people. So the attention to where people live, work and play and what those conditions are is actually on the agenda in a way that it wasn't. Well, and it's on the agenda down in some part, at least to the hard work done by people like you. Serena, what about connecting BME groups with climate change? Because sometimes it does feel somewhat abstract to many of us, doesn't it?

Well, it does go back to what Judy was saying, actually, because for me, yes, sitting in Scotland, sitting in the West, sometimes it feels abstract. But if you're somebody from a different part of the world or have got family or heritage

from different parts of the world, it's not so abstract. It's actually very real. So the climate impacts, for instance, if you're from Pakistan or Nepal or Bangladesh, Oh, I think we've lost you. real so the climate impacts for instance if you're from pakistan or nepal or bangladesh oh they've lost you those impacts have seen those impacts have been affected lives have been lost

so climate change is very real for many of us sitting in in the uk because of these connections around the world and so it doesn't become abstract. The only difference is for the lay Wong, who is the founder and honorary president of the Black Environment Network. Some more brilliant women from the Women's Hour, Our Planet power list for 2020. Okay, so to your thoughts on the rest of the programme today. And there was another of those wonderful conversations between our reporter, Jo Morris,

and a listener who wanted to talk about the impact of their mother's death and of getting to the age at which their mother had died. And it was Claire we heard from today. And it was brilliant as well to get Claire's daughter involved in that conversation. And this is from Jane in Oxfordshire. My grandmother died unexpectedly, actually, from hypothermia, even though she was 94. She had been determined to get to 100. My mum didn't really talk about it, but occasionally threw out comments about not being able to get past her mother's achieved age. I didn't take it seriously, but when she was 93 and a half, she did what doctors and nurses of the elderly call turning her face to the wall. Essentially, she chose to starve herself

to death. Hearing your stories has been so interesting. I now feel less alone in my heartache on the subject. Jane, thank you for that. From Anne, I thought that was very moving this morning from Claire, who lost her mum when she was 42 and is now approaching that age herself. My brother had the same experience as both my father and my grandfather died at 50. And my brother was convinced he would, too. And he just wouldn't talk about it. I'm happy to say he is now 66 and he's delighted to have outlived them. So that's something.

On another matter, says Anne, I'm looking forward to your Women in Space piece. I am a retired BBC producer and I got to make a programme with Valentina Tereshkova when she came to the UK in the late 80s. She was completely amazing and an absolutely lovely person. Valentina, of course, was the world's first female cosmonaut or astronaut. I know she was a Russian heroine. Well, still is. From Anya, listening to your program today really resonated with me. My mom died at 48 when I was 12 and I turned 48 this year. My daughter told me she was terrified of turning 12 because she thought I would die then as well. As I got closer to her age, I was struck by how young she was and how young I was.

It is still very, very raw, says Anya. I can imagine. Thank you, Anya. Another listener, Lisa, says my mom died three days after her 49th birthday. I'm going to be 49 in April. I have spent 22 years living life at full velocity with the motto experience everything because I have dreaded hitting that milestone. I'm scared. I feel ridiculous for being scared. And I have two young children and I'm a single parent. And of course, that contributes to that fear. I am a positive person and I am known as being an eternal optimist. But the truth is, I cannot shake this fatalistic feeling. Lisa, I don't have a crystal ball,

but I'm here to tell you it will be all right. Please try very hard not to get too concerned about that, although obviously I can see why you're worried. I absolutely get that. Lots of you were, well, discombobulated by the conversation with Sharon Haig from Pearson, the educational publishers. Lucy says, I have a three year old girl, a book lover. And what annoys me the most is that 95 percent of the non-human characters, trains, animals, et cetera, are male. It is the default position. So I make a point of changing them all to female. Lucy, I get that. I think I may have done that myself, actually. From Imelda, the Pearson representative went on to say that flipping the gender roles in the example given would be good, i.e. making the girl active and the boy

more hesitant. This is at least 30 years out of date and also not a good solution. From Libby, as part of my MA dissertation, I looked at reading schemes from the early 1990s. I feel the gender stereotyping has become more subtle and invidious, but it still has such a powerful effect. Well done, Pearson, though a bit late, says Libby. Another listener. My husband and I have been consistently frustrated with children's literature since the birth of our first child five years ago. Gender stereotyping is still rife

and having to find gender-balanced books takes time and patience. We often switch the gender of every person in a book to remove the gender stereotyping. We try everything to allow our children, a girl and a boy, not to be constrained by outdated and appalling bias. From Sky, what do you want to do? Burn all books, e.g. the famous five? We cannot erase history, nor should we seek to. Simply learn from it. I was born in 1972 and Granny Nancy was part of the anti-Blyton brigade. She favoured Kipling and Swallows and Amazons, but that was her choice.

I made mine and read all 21 famous five books to my son three times back to back. He is now at Durham University studying history. All reading is good. More books, fewer screens, says Sky. And from another listener in, I'm assuming, South Wales. That's as much as I can gather from what I've got in front of me here. Yes, we must stop teaching children they're limited by their sex, but this seems to have got more deeply embedded in society in the past 30 years. I think we impose pink and blue from before birth when reality means anyone can be any colour, like anything, any toy, any hobby, any hairstyle and any job. Anne, gender stereotypes have been around for a long time. In the 80s, I was a borough children's librarian and took part in school's library services.

I campaigned against racist and sexist stereotypes in children's books. School libraries were then borough funded and supported by my team of librarians. Not so now since the Thatcher Education Act ended this and the struggle continues, says Anne. Anonymous, as a mother of sons, often when looking for interesting books online i'm bombarded by books for brave girls women scientists badass women i'm a woman i'm only too aware how we've been left out forever and i'm so glad to see these positive girl books but it does feel to me like boys might be being pushed aside a little bit. Wouldn't it be great to celebrate all children and people? Will we ever get to a point where biological sex is irrelevant? I wonder. Thanks. And this, I think it was important to mention this. I don't know what you're talking about,

says this listener. My children are learning to read in school with Biff and Chip and my radar's always out. And so far we have yet to find any examples of crass sexism or conditioning yes it certainly was that way in my day but not any more yes i get that my children did biff and chip and um i i agree i don't think there was anything wrong with biff and chip from from what i recall and heaven knows my aunt and i were absolutely looking for it um and from Charlotte when my brother and I read Famous Five we thought Julian and Anne were wet and George was feisty and I can't remember the other two um well we had a little look at this um Julian was the biggest brother um Julian was followed by Dick I don't remember anything about Dick um Anne was a was a complete wet blanket. And George was, of course, a girl, Georgina, called herself

George, always wore shorts and really felt quite restricted by the stereotyping that was applied to her. And Timmy, who was the fifth member of the Famous Five, was a dog. And I'm assuming that Timmy was male. But look, we don't know how Timmy felt. So Timmy could have been, I'm sure Timmy still is, whatever Timmy wants to be. Thank you to everybody who took part. And thanks for everything you provided for us this morning by way of interaction. We're back on Monday morning. And tomorrow, of course, no, we're not back on, we are back on Monday.

Tomorrow afternoon is the highlight of the Woman's Hour week and we've got some of our best bits for you, two minutes past four tomorrow afternoon, that will include the brilliant writer about food, Penn Vogler who I thought was great this week we'll also hear from Kalina Bovell who is the Panamanian American conductor

really loved talking to her and we'll talk to you about the misery of miscarriage. That is tomorrow afternoon. Join us then. And then we're back live on the radio and in podcast form, of course, if you're a catch-up person on Monday morning. Have a good weekend.

Hello, Louis Theroux here. And I just wanted to hijack this podcast to tell you that I'm back with another series of my podcast, Grounded with Louis Theroux. In case you hadn't noticed, COVID hasn't gone away, and because of travel restrictions, neither have I. So I've rounded up the likes of Michaela Cole, Frankie Boyle, Oliver Stone, Sia, and FKA Twigs for another set of eclectic and thought-provoking conversations.

Yes, I'm still grounded with me, Louis Theroux, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.