Woman's Hour - Sharon Horgan, Sport and periods, Fangirls

Episode Date: August 19, 2022

The British sprinter Dina Asher-Smith had to stop running at the European Championships this week because of cramp. She said it was because of her period, and now she's calling for more research into periods and sporting performance. Hepatahlon Olympic Bronze medallist Kelly Sotherton comes onto the programme, as well as Dr Richard Burden who's co-lead on Female Health & Performance at the English Institute of SportWe talk to Sharon Horgan and Eve Hewson, about a new black comedy series they're in called Bad Sisters. It's all about five Irish sisters, and four of them hate their brother-in-law. They're desperate for the fifth sister to be rid of him. What will they do?We speak to Lena Kulakovska, who escaped Ukraine when she was 36 weeks pregnant and is now safely settled in Devon. She's just had a baby daughter, so what are her plans for her and her three young children?We hear once again from listener Titania. She sent us an email when we put the call out to tell us how it feels to reach the age your Mum was when she died. We hear her story.And we start a new series about fangirls. This week we go beyond the stereotype of the hysterical girl who's obsessed with someone famous. We ask instead what does being a fan bring to your life? We're joined by playwright and songwriter, Yve Blake, who's created the award-winning musical FANGIRLS and Hannah Ewens, a writer at Rolling Stone, former fangirl and author of Fangirls: Scenes from Modern Music Culture.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Now, how does our menstrual cycle affect us when it comes to sport and exercise? British athlete Dina Asher-Smith last night spoke about her recent struggles when it comes to competing. But what solutions are there? We'll hear from a former athlete who tells us she had to track her periods a year in advance to ensure she could compete at her best. We'd also be talking sisterhood this morning with the stars of a new comedy drama series that's being released today. It centres on five Irish sisters. And when one of their husbands dies, his life insurers begin to suspect not all is as it seems among these women. It's intriguing. I've watched the first episode. Also, we continue to hear stories of Ukrainian people coming to the

UK after escaping the Russian invasion. This morning, we'll be talking to a woman who fled her homeland back in June whilst heavily pregnant. She's recently had her baby here in the UK after finding refuge in Devon. She'll be telling us her story about leaving her husband and everything she knew behind. I want to ask you about fangirls this morning. Are you a fangirl or have you ever been one? Maybe you were part of Beatles mania in the 60s or are you a current member of Beyonce's Beehive? Is there a pop star or a pop group that you're a super fan of who you relate to or perhaps you wish you could emulate, would love to meet? Or maybe you're just simply blown away by their musical talent.

I remember when I was growing up, I had friends in love with Take That posters all over the walls. Now, I'm asking about this because female super fans are often portrayed as being hysterical, obsessive, almost unhinged. They're rarely seen in a positive light. I'll be speaking to two women who believe the fangirl image has been misunderstood and actually they play a big role in influencing global politics. Maybe you experienced this as a superfan. Was there a message that you stood for or a social or political situation

that you wanted to change as a fangirl? Get in touch. You can WhatsApp us now on 03700100444. I would love to hear your voice notes if you'd like to send them. Pictures as well are welcome. Remember, though, if you WhatsApp us that data charges may apply. You can also text us on 84844. Texts are charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour,

and you can almost email us as well via the Woman's Hour website. So all of that to come, but first this morning, the British sprinter Dina Asher-Smith has called for more research into the effect of periods on performance after her cycle caused her to pull up with cramp at the European Championships, which are currently being held in Munich. Now, Dina initially thought her recovery strategy or maybe hydration may be to blame after she limped out of Tuesday's 100 metre final. But after qualifying fastest for today's 200 metre

final, she spoke on the side of the track and said it was actually her period that was to blame. Something that I think more people need to actually research from a sports science perspective because it's actually huge and people don't always talk about it either because sometimes you see girls serving so consistent there's a random dip and behind the scenes they've been really struggling.

But obviously outwardly to everybody else it's like, what's that? That's random so but it would just do with more funding because yeah I feel like if it was a men's issue we'd have a million different ways to combat things but with women there just needs to be more funding in that area. Well Dina isn't the only athlete who's spoken out about this Jasmine Sawyers the jumper, last night won a bronze and she's also raised this issue. Her former coach and former heptathlete and Olympic bronze medalist, Kelly Southerton,

joined me earlier to discuss this very matter. When you have to perform at your best and then you're on a cycle, it sometimes can play havoc with everything. So it's a very familiar story. it seems one that doesn't go away it comes up pops its head up and goes away but there's even though even in my day this was being talked about in my day like 15 20 years ago it still there's no any any solutions out there um and that for me is why isn't that happening is there you know what is the medical world in sport doing about supporting athletes, female athletes who are really truly affected by their menstrual cycle?

Yeah, we'll come to possible solutions in just a moment. But first, you said it wreaks havoc on your body. Just describe to people how it impacts your performance when you're on your period so uh so for me when I was an athlete for instance the week prior to um I'm gonna say it bleeding was most uh um terrible time for me that's when I'd most likely get injured so um it was about managing how you trained and performed um so then we retrained our training cycle to fit our menstrual cycle. But that meant, obviously, then I had to be on some kind of contraceptive to manage that as well. And then manipulating a contraceptive pill to ensure that your periods in a year's time are when they should be and when you want them based upon competition so um so it's it can it can injure you um if you if you over train recovery can be affected mentally we all know sometimes you can maybe not be so um high on concentration levels and may make um silly mistakes and errors

and that you wouldn't do any time of the month um but also just you know and things like you know most obvious leakage you know you're putting your body for a lot of stress and strain running pushing yourself to the limits and you've got to watch out for the simple leakage thing so it's like that's that's not nice and that's not something you should have to worry about on a day-to-day when you're trying to perform at your best what kind of mental impact does that have on you uh well you know I think straight away when you're on when you're on on your period anyway day-to-day life it's it's you I suppose you just feel a little bit down you don't feel as high as you would normally feel um because you know something's just affecting you and sometimes it doesn't really affect you and some days and times of the month it really does and I suppose it's

just something that women have to deal with alongside everything else and as I said if it can affect women outside of sport and it could be debilitating in their everyday world you know I know friends who have to take time off work and they're not elite performers but I also know there's elite performers who have that situation and Jess Sawyers a couple of years ago was a great illustration and I did train her and see her through a situation where she physically couldn't train because her cramps were so bad and that she wanted to go to the hospital so it's like so nobody should have to have that concern when you're putting on a British vest and you're trying to perform your best for your country.

It shouldn't be that thing in your head that you're worrying about. It should be just performing. And you mentioned there the anxiety over possibly leaking whilst you're on your period. I mean, the outfits that athletes tend to wear, female athletes in particular, very, very tight. Not much space in those outfits. That must be an added worry on top of that. Yeah, I think so. I think there was a tennis player recently from the Wimbledon Whites.

And, you know, like if you're on your period and you're wearing white, you know, sometimes if you're on a heavy period, it doesn't matter what kind of sanitary wear you have, you can still leak, and that's not nice. Yes, and in athletics, and I suppose in swim, anywhere, in any sport where you're wearing very tight-fitting clothing to your body, you know, there is a concern, like, oh, God, what happens if? So you shouldn't be worried about that. I mean, I think as I keep going going back this is not just about a leap for well it is but also every day when we when we're on a heavy period you do think about it because you don't if you're going out or you're wearing something light you don't want to have

that leakage it's it's just it's that's like the most embarrassing thing ever um i think if anybody watched sex in the city the re the new one when, when Charlotte had a leakage and she was walking around with a period mark on her trousers, nobody wants to do that because it's just highly embarrassing. Yeah, it's really seen as quite taboo. So what are the solutions then, Kelly? Because you said you train an athlete through this very situation in jazz at Sawyers. What did you offer her in terms of support and advice? Well, I really couldn't offer that much in terms of, you know, because she just had some debilitating pain for that moment. We just took her to the hospital and they said, oh, just get over it. There was nothing we could do. I think it's having, the athletes need to have the confidence and to have those conversations

with their coaches and the people around them and their peers um so at the moment there doesn't seem to be any real medical advice out there in in the sporting world does that shock you that after years of it being talked about no medical advice has come out yet yeah i do i understand research takes time but you know i'm sure there'll be plenty of females out there if there was any research trials in terms of you know dealing with some of this these issues that they would jump on it um you know so all I could suggest is is there a non-medical forum where there's been obviously we have a an array of brilliant female athletes in this country and around the world there's an open forum to offer solutions not just to athletes but to coaches how to deal with certain things

as I suggested earlier when I trained I've worked out my cycle a year in advance I allowed my training to fit my cycles um and and and that did help I was injured less I got severe menstrual migraines which I still trained through so it was just like how did you do it what did you do what are your solutions and just offering advice from others and supporting others just needs to be a conversation I do think coaches aren't prepped in this probably more male coaches it's an uneasy conversation to have with you know a female athlete you know about your periods but you have to be open to your coach and they have to know everything about you for them to be able to help you to perform at your best. Former heptathlete Kelly Southerton so what sort of research is actually being done into this area well Dr Richard

Burden is co-lead on female health and performance at the English Institute of Sport and joins me now good morning Richard as you heard there from Kelly Southerton, she doesn't feel as though much research has been done into this area, at least research that's been made public. What can you tell us about the research that you're doing? Well, I mean, I understand the frustrations, you know, from someone like Kelly and for athletes out there and the general population population but um I hopefully I can assure people that we are trying um so at the at the English Institute of Sport we you know we have a specific female athlete health and performance program with a very broad remit of trying to

improve health and performance support for female athletes across the high-performance system, starting with some of the things that Kelly mentioned, like education. So, you know, kind of bespoke education for athlete groups, for coaching groups, for support staff groups, so that we can increase kind of the general level of understanding around some of the challenges that are specific to female athletes because if we're able to do that then hopefully we kind of set the foundations for people to have more informed conversations and be

more comfortable having conversations with between athletes and coaches. Now Dina Asher-Smith said in that interview that that clip we played out she said that if this was a men's issue and it was men's hormones all over the place a solution would have been found by now what do you think about that? Yeah she's probably right yeah I can't argue with that all I would say is that you know we've definitely recognized the need that we need to provide better information, more information, be more proactive with the support from both a health and performance point of view. with developing areas of research to improve our understanding of, for example, of how the menstrual cycle influences health and performance so that we can pass on that information to athletes and their coaches.

Yeah, Kelly mentioned obviously a lot of negatives when it comes to the menstrual cycle, but there are certain advantages at some points in the cycle for athletes as well, isn't there? I think that the biggest advantage would would be that everyone understanding how it might affect an individual um because ultimately it is a very individual um it's a very individual thing um and you know i'm very conscious that i'm a i'm a bloke i'm never going to have a menstrual cycle um so i'm never going to experience it but what i do know is that there is individuals so between athletes they won't experience the same thing both from the biology and and their experience of it um so that we need to create better ways and better information that actually individualizes our support because kind of blanket approaches

whether it's um clinical approaches or performance approaches, one size fits all just doesn't work anymore. Yeah, I think that's clear. And there's clearly a lot of work still to be done. Dr. Richard Byrne, thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. Now, let's talk about a new dark comedy series from the award winning writer, producer and actress Sharon Horgan. You might know her from shows such as Motherland, Pulling, Catastrophe and Divorce. Well, her new series is called Bad Sisters

and it follows the Irish Garvey sisters who have always looked out for each other. And when their brother-in-law dies, his life insurers start an investigation to prove the sisters were involved. The first two episodes of the series are available to watch globally from today on Apple TV+. Eve Hewson plays one of the sisters called Becca and Sharon Horgan plays another called Eva and both join me now. Very good morning to you, Eve and

Sharon. How are you? Good. Nice. Good to have you on Women's Hour. So Sharon, could you just... Well, I'm a little woolly. Oh, that's fine. That's fine. I'm looking at you through the screen and you look very glamorous, I have to say. Just tell us a bit about the story, Sharon, and who you play and a bit about your character. Yeah, so like you said, it's about the Garvey girls. They're five sisters.

One of their sisters is married to a real piece of work, a monster of a man, and her other four sisters decide that the only way around that is to kill him i mean that sounds a bit uh extreme i build this as a comedy sharon um but they will the comedy is i think that they try and fail they're like eve houston says they're not very good at murder and uh so they they keep trying and failing and you know it's um it's a know, it's a bit of a cat and mouse because the insurance brother is trying to prove, you know, foul play.

And them trying to kill this awful human. I play Eva. She's the matriarch of the family. Their parents are dead and she's sort of, she sees them as her children, really. But yeah, so I'm baby she's sort of um she sees them as her her children really but um yeah so I'm baby Becca's sort of sort of mum yeah how was that Eve playing uh uh your character tell us about her she's a massage therapist isn't she she is she's the youngest of of the group

she's the only one who kind of hasn't figured it out yet. She's sort of in that phase. Everyone else has sort of got a career or a family and, you know, they're proper grownups. And she's the one who still feels like she's stuck in between childhood and adulthood. And she is very keen on killing this man, but maybe not as talented as her sisters at it. I mean, who's really talented at killing people? Let's just give our listeners a taste of what's to come in this series. Here's a trailer. I know you don't think he's a good man.

Families, they're complex. I'm warning you. She doesn't respect you. You're so weak. She wasn't always like that. He's sucking the life out of her. Well, we'll just have to wait till he dies of cancer or something. Why not give nature a helping hand?

We're talking about taking a man's life. Not a man, but monster. That's Demented. Ooh. Now, Sharon, you wrote the series and it was adapted from a Belgian Flemish series. Tell me about the process because you've had to adapt someone else's work rather than draw on your own experiences. Or were you able to do both?

I think I was able to do both. I mean, the original Flemish series called Clan is completely wonderful um and I was on board from watching the the first episode really um especially because of this the the five sisters at the heart of it and and just the premise I found so fun but but you know there was lots I knew I would want to change you know to to make my own otherwise what's the point in in doing it you know people get really angry about adaptations that don't work or you know aren't different or better than the original so you know I come from a big family I've got two brothers two sisters we're we're a big sort of traveling circus of of siblings and uh so I felt like I I felt like I'd be able to recreate that sort of mad energy on screen. And the original was so wonderful, but it was kind of broader.

It kind of had Chinese mafia and hitmen and all sorts. So my notion was just that I wanted to ground it because, you know, at the heart is, you know, a very abusive, coercive relationship. And I felt like, you know, I wanted to, you know, respect that subject matter and make sure that, you know, I had the time and the space to explore that. But at the same time, you know, it is a comedy and it's quite madcap at times so it's uh I guess I just sort of um have have tried to hone the the the you know dark comedy thing over the years and it felt like the right it felt like the right show for what I've sort of learned over the years yeah and one of the overriding themes is sisterhood.

Now, Eve, you have siblings. What does sisterhood mean to you? Were you able to draw on some of your own experiences and translate them into your character? Absolutely. I think I said this in an interview the other day, but I described me and my sister um Liam and Noel Gallagher we're like we we fight like cats and dogs but we love each other madly um and so that I mean I grew up like we're two years apart we're basically like twins we do everything together um we have the same friends everything so I understand that

sister bond so much and it was great because my sister came with me last night and it was just so nice to kind of have the real sister and then my tv sisters with me and sort of share that experience together was lovely um and I think anybody from any big family or, you know, like, you know, this is such a beautiful dynamic that we have. It's got so much going on in it. And I think people will like connect to it in in a really spectacular way because we love each other, but we're fighting and then we're kissing and loving on each other again. It's great. Yeah. Sharon, did you find that as well, that being part of a big family having sisters you were able to draw on those experiences for this uh for this series yeah and I met Eve's sister last night

and she's how was it she's just the image of her she just looks like like Eve but you know parallel universe Eve um yeah I really was I mean my um two of my siblings were there last night and my mum and dad and I mean we're not quite Liam and Noel Gallagher we're more sort of Nolans we don't fight like I think myself and my brother have had one fight in our lives and that's when he moved in with me for a while and then when it came to me moving out we just sort of both panicked and you know got a bit uh got a bit emotional with each other but um no we we um we have we haven't got that thing though where we're sort of an instant tribe and if anyone tries to you know interfere with that or or or mess with us in any way you've got someone there who's got your corner and it's

it's a nice feeling to know that someone has always got your corner especially if they're six foot four like my brother nice nice to have that protection eve obviously for you some listeners might not know this but you come from a famous family how does that dynamic um impact the way you and your sister interact and for people that don't know your dad is is Bono uh lead singer of U2 yeah I mean that's definitely something that I've always loved having such a close bond with my sister is that we kind of have always protected each other and growing up in a very sort of complicated um but great, you know, situation. But it's a particular thing that's not kind of hard to explain. And we've helped each other through

that so much. And I have two younger brothers as well. And so the four of us just sort of have this bond, I think that, um, I don't think we would have, you know, been able to, um, turn out the way that we did, have we not had each other? I think like, you know, you kind of need that sort of person by your side. Um, so yeah. What is it that makes it difficult, uh, Eve, about growing up in the spotlight like that when you're when your family is as famous as it is. You know, it has a lot of wonderful things about it, but there's definitely a sort of a pressure about it and a fishbowl kind of aspect to it where people are watching you in a different way, especially, you know, as a child, when you're growing up, and you're learning about yourself, there's a sort of eyes on you that I think is not normal. So that's been important that we sort of have each other to lean on. Sharon, watching the first episode, there's some absolutely beautiful landscapes used throughout the episode. And it's obviously shot in Ireland, Ireland in Dublin was it important for you for it to be shot there

yeah I mean I've been waiting for years to do this you know everything I've made has been London based and it's been wonderful but even Catastrophe where I got to have you know an Irish family any of the Ireland scenes we shot in I don't know Essex or somewhere just are you saying are you saying Essex isn't as idyllic as Dublin beautiful um so yeah I've been waiting to do this for years and um and just to get to do it on an Apple show you know where you you know it's a bit more spendy so you get to uh you get you, you know, where you, you know, it's a bit more spendy. So you get to, you get, you get, you know, really be quite spectacular with your vision for it. And we had an amazing director, Dervla Walsh, who I'd worked with before and just, we all adore her. And, you know,

as important as the performances were and all of that, we were really quite obsessed with, you know, showing Ireland in a particular light and especially the 40 foot, which is the sort of, you know, the men's, it used to be a men's only sort of swimming area in Dublin. And I don't think it's been sort of seen before on TV or that sort of that area anyway. And so getting that right, because it's a really special place that also doesn't make sense because it's just like a big heap of rock that people jump off. But Eve, it's kind of magical, isn't it? Yeah, it's fantastic. It's the most beautiful part, I think. I grew up about five minutes away from there. So it was very special to me to get to shoot there.

And all of our friends came and watched us while we were shooting those scenes. And your mum came down and brought chocolate. Yeah, my mum brought down like teas and chocolate for everybody. It was a really, really special moment for me. Like I grew up there and then we were sort of coming back doing this show. It was just fantastic. And if you ever go, you have to go to the 40 foot and jump in the seat. Well, I saw you in the first episode jumping off a cliff.

I'm not sure I'll be trying that, Eve. Was that really you? Was that really you? Did you have a stunt double? That was her. That was really me. I have a stunt double that was really me I had been practicing doing that and when we got to do the scene they um they told me I didn't have to jump off the cliff and I was like I've been working really hard at this I'm getting this on

camera we have to do it he insisted on the jump off a cliff I I had written it and I'd completely forgotten and uh I I have to do this really quite pathetic dive in episode two. And I don't know how to dive. So I spent like the two days before going to various little spots around Ireland, jumping off rocks, just desperately trying to make it look like I knew what I was doing. Absolutely brilliant. And just before we let you go, I i mean just talk to us briefly sharon about the sisterhood not just amongst your siblings but with these group of co-stars it seems like i think the vibe between the the five actresses the five sisters really comes out in the series yeah i think i just got really lucky with this group of women.

You know, I kind of went to all my favourite actresses and said, will you do it? And thankfully, I wrote Eve Hewson a love letter, actually, just saying, you have to do this show. And luckily she agreed. But like from the minute we started, you know, it was just there, this bond, like very supportive of each other on screen and off. And, you know, we were our rehearsal period involved sitting around and chatting and swimming and doing those kind of things that you don't normally get to do. But then we spent 10 months together. So it was kind of hard not to, you know, become really intimate like a family over that time and uh

you know I I'm mad about all of them I've spent far too long looking at all their faces I could I could keep watching so I'm obsessed brilliant uh it's been such good fun talking to you Sharon and to Eve as well uh stars of the new Apple TV Plus series Bad Sisters. And it's now available to watch globally from today. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. Now, one of the things Woman's Hour is for, is well known for, is identifying the things about women's lives that we just don't talk about. Titania is a listener who emailed us when we asked how it feels to reach the age your mum was when she died.

Jo Morris met her and asked to see a photo of her mum, Beverly. I found one. I don't have very many. I just have one. This is my mum. She has brown eyes. She has a nose stud, which is cool. Quite unusual for the 80s, a nose stud, isn't it? Yeah, I told you she was cool. Those eyebrows that you would paint them on and draw them on, very Dallas or dynasty. She had those and bright red lips.

And how old is she in this photo? I think she's about 44. So your age? Yeah, she's in her 40s, yeah. She was stunning. All the boys used to fancy her. They were friends? Boys on the street.

Like, I grew up in Harleston. So she's driving through Harleston with the, like, convertible roof down and all the men's heads are just whipping left, right? Yeah. So can you tell me a bit about your own situation? I lived with my grandparents until I was 12 and my grandma died from non-smokers lung cancer. And then I went to live with my mum, which was obviously quite difficult.

And then when I was 29, my mum died from lung cancer as well. And my nan was 64 when she died, and my mum was 54 when she died, and I'm 44. I like numbers and patterns so there's a thing there yeah. Is this a pattern? Is this now my time? I'm 44 so is that it? What did you think when you heard our call out for women coming up to the age of when their mum died? I suppose I thought actually that could be me. That actually is me. Are there others like me? Light bulb moment, really. Yeah. In what way? It's there in your mind that you are approaching the age that your mother died or your grandma died. It's kind of an insane thought. So you kind of keep it in your head because it's wrong. So then you hear it and you're like, there are others.

There are others. there are others there are others has this feeling got worse as you've got older as you get nearer to the age it has so you're 44 I am so you've got a way to go until you get to 54 I do yes

does it feel like that 54 is not it is not far away. But I keep telling myself not, don't be so silly. Don't think like that. You have to be positive. You want to make sure that you are doing everything that you can to live as long as you can because you want to see your grandchildren and you want to be around as long as you can.

So you don't want to think like that but then it's like there's two things on your shoulders and one saying be sensible and be positive and the other one saying but you know you're kind of showing certain signs you do get pneumonia a lot and you get a lot of lung infections and isn't that what happened to your mum when she was your age and she's like and're thinking, no, I'm not going to do it. Have you spoken to anyone about this before, Titania? I suppose my husband would be someone that I... But then I don't want to worry him, so...

Yeah, so I don't really say so much about it. And, um... Yeah. I went through this phase where, after my mum died, I was speaking to the doctor and I was like, oh, it's not genetic. It's not what I'd seen my mum die from and my grandmother die from, not being able to breathe. It was mind-blowing. So your nan brought you up for the first 12 years of your life?

Yeah. And you called her your...? I called her my mum. Some of my siblings were there as well, but some were in care, but some were there as well. And you thought of her as your mum did you at that time yeah I called her mummy although everyone called her mummy but yeah did they were all the friends and neighbors and friends neighbors you know the children on the

street and cousins and everyone what was she like she was very very bubbly really happy unless she was shouting at you she had she was she came from jamaica so she had the jamaican accent you just do what she says i was quite a good child why didn't your mum bring you up she was just not able to i don't think she was able to cope with us. Then when my nan died, we all had to go somewhere, so we had to work out who was going where. And I ended up going with my mum. She was a party girl, so she was very cool.

She had a cool job and she'd hang out with cool people. She'd always be going to America or hanging out with Luther Vandross or doing something cool. She had parties, not Tupperware parties, like cool parties. Not Tupperware parties? Everyone else's mum was doing Tupperware parties or Avon parties and my mum was having like a party party. Did you call your mum mum?

No, I called her Beverly. My background and my childhood was quite complex. I would have been one of those children in the class that had, you know, special circumstances. All the questions, why do you call your mum Beverly? And who's that lady? That doesn't look like your mum. Because obviously my nan was a bit older. But I had a mum, and then she died,

and then I had another mum, and then she died. So, yeah, twice. Or you could say I had two chances. I was lucky enough to have another mum, then after the first one died. Can you take me back to a happy place with your mum, or a really good memory? My mum loved music, and she particularly loved Luther Vandross. And so when she was really ill, we had had a party here I think it was my son's first holy communion but there was DJs in the garden and we had a Luther Vandross song came on

now she could barely stand up she died not too long afterwards this um song never too much by Luther Vandross never too too much, never too much. But it came on. I love it. It's just such a tune. She used all of her strength to get out of that chair and my auntie Marcia helped her. She got out of the chair and she danced to that song and I mean it literally exhausted her.

You could see but there was no way she was going to have that song on in the garden and not going to get up and dance. I'm going to play that song on in the garden and not going to get up and dance. Da-da, da-da, da-da. I'm going to play my mum's song, Luther Vandross, Never Too Much. Such a tune. It was such a nice memory. You're looking at her when you talk about her. Yeah, I put it there.

Is that a bit weird that it's on the sofa? Very positive. Like, she wouldn't think, oh, I'm dying. She wouldn't say that. She'd say, although she would use her cancer to get things. Like, she'd push to the front of the queue because she'd had cancer and she would tell everyone in the queue. We do that all the time.

Like, where do you mean? What sort of places? Sainsbury's. Sainsbury's? Sorry, I have cancer. She's like, you've got to make a nice fit, haven't you? She said, there's not many perks. She said, there's not many perks.

That's what she said, there's not many perks, yeah. So when you look in the mirror, do you see your mum? I wish. Oh, my God, have you seen this photo? I can't. Do you think you're doing things differently to her? Or have you done things differently? Yeah, so she didn't finish her university.

So she wanted me to do that and do a master's. She wanted me to do that. She wanted me to buy a flat or a home. I've done that. She wanted me to not have four kids with four different men. So I didn't do that. She was really keen that we put the kids first. You know, when my nan died, she was in bed for, God, over a year.

And I think she had to come to terms with some of the decisions that she made with her children and with her just generally, and I think she found that quite difficult. She would always say, make sure you look after the kids, they come first. Has it affected decisions you've made about your life? I don't have a pension. I don't know any women in my family who've lived long enough to claim a pension. So I'm not going to do my pension, I'm going to opt out.

Again, it's morbid, I know that, but I could also just be excusing my frivolity. You don't fancy saving any money. it's morbid I know that but I could also just be excusing my frivolity but yeah no but seriously was that a conscious decision you made not to have a pension yeah I mean I think the reasons for not having a pension are many but what I will say is I don't have any old people in my family really so you're glad you've spoken about it? I am actually I am really glad because you know I said before that I thought I was the only person I thought it was an irrational fear that had to be sort of silenced and ignored and just tidied away somewhere safe and glass half full and all that fine you can have fears and worries and concerns.

And speaking it doesn't make it true. So how will you spend your 54th birthday, Titania? It's going to be a party. Like a Harleston party. Not a normal party, it's going to be a Harleston party. It's going to be sound systems and sequence. Wow. I love that.

I love that song so much. Titania was talking to Joe Morris. Now, a plea for your help, if we may. We want to hear from you about gossip. Why do some people love to gossip? Is it just our way of sharing information? What do you do when you hear a juicy piece of information? Do you share it and who do you share it with?

Well, for our August Bank Holiday Programme, we'd love to hear your best gossip stories. Maybe gossiping brought you closer together as a family or maybe you lost friends because of it. We want to know. So you can send as a family or maybe you lost friends because of it. We want to know. So you can send us a WhatsApp or a voice note on 03700100444. Remember that data charges may apply depending on which provider you have. You can also get in touch via text as well.

The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. And as always, you can email us through our website. Now, the massacre of hundreds of civilians in Bucha, Ukraine, has been one of the most significant events of the Russian invasion so far. Horrific images were seen around the world of people in the city who had been tortured and executed.

Lina Kulakovskayska has just brought her first home in Bucha when the invasion started, but she stayed in Ukraine until June, hoping that the fighting would die down in time for her to give birth to her third child. In the end, though, she fled to the UK by road. She was 36 weeks pregnant and had to say goodbye to her husband, Sergai, at the Polish border. Lina eventually settled in Devon, staying with the Archdeacon of Plymouth, Nick Schutt. She gave birth to her baby, Nicole, last month at the local hospital. And Lina joins me now.

Good morning to you, Lina. Thank you for coming on to Women's Hour. Just tell us a bit about your life in Ukraine before the Russian invasion. We have a great life in Ukraine. Ukraine is a very beautiful country and we live in the capital of that country in Kiev. We have where to live. We have a job. Our children were very glad because they have everything. They went to school, to kindergarten.

They were happy. Sometimes with their granny, their cousins, it was everything okay. They were happy. And then how did life change once the invasion happened? Everything has changed. No, every people in Ukraine never forget that day, 24 February, when everything become another. You know, we have to start our lives from zero. We have to start our lives again. And that's why everything has changed. Yeah. So I know that you were working as a manager in a restaurant and your husband,

Sergai, was working in a coffee factory. And initially you wanted to stay in Ukraine despite the invasion, didn't you? Yes, I want to say I have a very good job in Ukraine. I was a restaurant manager and I make events for many people here. We were very afraid to stay in Ukraine, but we hope that everything will be okay and we will get our job. How difficult would it have been to give birth in Ukraine? In Ukraine, it was difficult. It was danger to give birth because Syrians every time and rockets can fly every minute, everywhere. That's why I think that it's for me, it will be better to leave my country and to come here to Great Britain. Yeah. And so you did that. But being as pregnant as you were so far along in your pregnancy,

I mean, there was trouble for you to travel from Ukraine over to the UK. So how did you go about making that journey? Oh, you know, it was really very hard. Four days we come here. We stopped for two nights to sleep, but it was not all night, just a few hours because we need to travel. And my host family, Nick Schott, he's helped me very much to come here. He and his staff, they made everything to make it more quickly and organized everything very good. That's why four days and I come here yeah so you were put in touch

with the archdeacon there of Plymouth and you've settled down in in Devon so what's your experience been like since getting to the UK um my experience to get in here yeah like how how have you settled into the community sorry I don't understand. My English is not so well. No, that's absolutely fine. How does it feel living in the UK now? You know, I live here now more than two months. And now, for now, I've stopped to afraid.

And for now, I understand that I can think about my life, my future life. What can I do? Everybody here tried to help me do everything that I feel in Great Britain good. And I want to say thank you. Thanks all of you, all of people who live in here uh say thank for nick shard and his family for their help in my family and congratulations on baby nicole how is she oh thank you she's a very noisy girl if she want to be me with her every time and now i talk with you and she's crying upstairs oh no i won't keep you too

long but how long do you expect to stay in the UK is your plan to go back to the Ukraine eventually first my plan was to come back on September oh she's here first my plan was come um on September come back but now I understand that it's not can be true then I want to I'm thinking about new year but I don't know how it can happen I need now to think about

plan B to stay here maybe for a long time and I understand it will be very hard for me because I have three children and one of them is very small but I hope that I can find maybe a job for a few hours a day to stay here and to be useful here not just to stay. Yeah yeah best of luck Lina and thank you for coming on to Women's Hour to share your story. OK, thank you very much.

Now, let's go back a little bit, shall we? Beatlemania in the 60s. Here's the Fab Four coming back from America to screaming fans. Go on, scream. They're here. George, John, Paul and Ringo. The Monarchs of Merseyside South. You reckon those crushed barriers will stand the strain? Well, that was 1964. But nowadays you have the One Directioners and Beyonce's beehive. In fact, there are loads of pop stars and pop groups plastered on bedroom walls and used as mobile phone wallpapers. Taylor Swift, Nicki Minaj, Harry Styles, K-pop's BTS, for example. So over the next few weeks, we'll be deep diving into this subculture of women who've often been ridiculed, labelled hysterical, obsessive, juvenile, even embarrassing.

But have fangirls been misunderstood? Well, our next two guests think so. They believe fangirls can have a big influence over celebrity and pop culture and even global politics. Eve Blake is a playwright and songwriter who has written a musical called Fangirls that's touring at Sydney Opera House at the moment. And Hannah Ewins, who writes for Rolling Stone and is author of the book Fangirls, Scenes from the Modern Music Culture. Good morning to you both. I think, first of all, Eve, we need to just establish what is a fangirl exactly? I mean, that's a great question, right? Because if you look in the dictionary dictionary it's gonna say um a woman who is a fan of something and in some dictionaries it'll even say who is like overly enthusiastic about something which I think is inherently gendered right um but I'm really

interested in the word fangirl as like a verb because to me to fangirl is to be able to express enthusiasm about something and to love something without apology. And I think that like a lot of people really look down on fangirling because they see it as inherently cringe. But to quote like my favorite meme of the year, I think, you know, to be cringe is to be free. I like that. I like that. Hannah, why do you think fangirls get such a bad rap? Yeah, I think it's because like the people who have historically held the keys to things like journalism and documentation and music criticism have been overwhelmingly middle and upper class men. So we've always seen that fangirls have been stereotyped as what you see in photographs of fangirls. Right. So like fangirls in a big group screaming and crying with their hands reached out and kind of like grasping at artists. And I think that this is obviously really 2D idea, but we've never really had fangirls be like spoken to before.

And really, we haven't really looked into like who they are and and what they what they do and why they do the things that they do so yeah we haven't had this like real understanding of who they are and that's why we they've had this really bad rep talk about your experience in hannah because you were a former fangirl i find it interesting that you say former fangirl so what were you going through emotionally how did it make you feel when you were fangirling yeah so I used to be firstly I was a fangirl of Courtney Love so I was you know that was a point of my life growing up as a little girl and being like just super angry and I don't think I had anywhere to like channel the rage so I kind of really modeled

myself on Courtney Love what she looked like how she sounded learned everything about her and that was a very sort of private version of fangirling and then fast forward like a couple of years and I got really into um like scene culture um when my space was a was a big thing and I was very very into the emo band My Chemical Romance and that was a sort of different experience because that was when I was discovering mental health for the first time and yeah I was kind of getting online and speaking to a lot of other girls who were also really into this band and had a we had this real sense of like camaraderie and we kind of went to gigs together and things like that so it was much more of a the friendship side of fangirling so I feel like I've sort of seen

two different the two different sides of it like a more private side and a personal side and um yeah and that sort of like group activity side of being a fangirl yeah there's lots of facets to this we've had a few messages coming from out from our listeners and someone said I'm currently writing my dissertation on how female fans are treated by the media and she says she actually runs a company which is all about encouraging people to be more themselves that is a huge part of it would you agree with that even did you incorporate that into the musical that you wrote about fangirls oh my gosh a hundred percent because like um Hannah hearing you describe the community that you found being a fan, I'm so jealous. Because really, the reason I'm writing about

fangirls is I was so obsessed with things as a teenager. But I guess I was so private about it myself, because I had, I guess, some internalized misogyny. And I thought it'd be really uncool if I was like out about the things I liked. And what's so interesting now is like the musical has come out. It's 100% a love letter to fangirls encased in like this musical comedy box. I call it like a Trojan horse. Like it appears to be this musical making fun of young women only to smuggle them into your heart. But what's amazing is now the show actually has this whole community

of supporters and I get to see these teenagers, you know, teenage girls and people beyond the binary in our foyers all gathering with like their handmade signs and they've met on Twitter and now they have these friendships and I'm so quietly jealous of that community because I never really was able to find that as a teenager and that's why I'm so like enamored of fangirls and can't stop researching them, someone else has got in touch to say female fans or fangirls are routinely treated as if pathological or ill or alternatively as if they have no aesthetic judgment of whatever they're a fan of, but they can be incredible forces for real change. Listening to you, Eve, and that listener that's got in touch,

I can really relate to that because I think I shied away from becoming a so-called fangirl because I was worried probably by the backlash and the fact that society viewed them as as crazy essentially insane right yeah so I I shied away from it but now looking back I see that perhaps I could have easily been a fangirl had I been more willing to just be myself and perhaps be more free and more liberated in that aspect, Eve. Yeah, right. And I think what's interesting there is for both of us, we decided that what was like socially acceptable for us to do and like the safe way to be was to behave in a way like according to what is socially acceptable for men to do. I think the reason why we cringe at fangirls is we live in a patriarchy that thinks emotions are embarrassing um and I think you know the reason that we cringe at fangirls is like we see like that outward expression of emotion as being inherently feminine and and therefore like inherently like that's why I think why we dismiss

it um but yeah I just couldn't agree with you more is there a difference between fangirl and fanboy then oh what a question I mean that's a huge question but like the first word that comes to mind is judgment like I think part of what inspired my research was yeah finding that um and Hannah you've spoken to this but but finding that you know I became interested in 2015 looking at coverage of One Direction fans. And I was reading like mainstream news articles that were describing them as hysterical, crazy, over the top, psycho, desperate. And then I was watching as like sports fans were being described as loyal, passionate and devoted. And I thought, this is really, really interesting. Because to me, like, I thought, wow, this is a real microcosm of how we hand young men and women completely different words to describe themselves.

And I guess that's what made me want to research fangirls, because I think the way that we talk to fangirls is a story about the way that we talk to young women. Hannah, as well, there's a bigger element of this, a wider context, because some of these so-called fangirls are coming together, are grouping together to be, you know, considerable change in terms of political and societal views? Yeah, I think that, well, I think fangirls firstly, like they're kind of organising around the internet a lot now and like social media. So I think that you're thinking of like teenage girls who are, to be honest, like quite engaged politically and they're you're thinking of like teenage girls who are to be honest like

quite engaged politically and they're like interested in things like identity politics so it makes sense that they're kind of coming together and using fandom maybe as like one part of what they're talking about but it's actually like using that as a lens to like see the world and yeah basically just like organize in that way and I know you know we're trying to change the perception of what a fangirl is but is there sometimes a slightly stalker-like element to this a dark side to fandom yeah it's interesting because um I went when I when I wrote the book I went to uh went to America and I went to Japan to see if fangirls were different in other countries. And I actually was speaking to some Japanese fangirls who were really into One Direction and Harry Styles was coming into the country and they knew that. And

so like, I wanted to hang out with them and see like what they were doing. And they were like saying that they were going to meet Harry Styles at the airport and so they actually used social media and sort of like checking in with different fans and to see like where he was at different points and so they sort of all coordinated so that the Harry Styles fangirls in Japan could actually get to the airport and for the exact right moment at the right terminal and all of that kind of stuff to actually see him come through so that is and I went with them to like actually see him come through so that is and I went with them to like actually see him come through it was really fun and really funny um but yeah there is an element of like stalker type activity to fandom but I think

I was people ask me all the time like was did I find crazy fans when I was doing my research and honestly there was only one girl who I thought that fandom had taken over her life to an extent that it was actually detrimental to her life. But otherwise everyone was like, really, yeah, having a positive impact on their life. Yeah, fascinating discussion. Thank you so much, Hannah and Eve. And it's something we're going to be continuing

to talk about here on Woman's Hour. Tune into our next episode on fangirls on the 31st of August. And just remember that Listener's Week is next week where we're handing over the program to you. So continue to get in touch with your stories, your passions, anything extraordinary that you've done, including hobbies. Get in touch in all the usual ways. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more

questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.