Woman's Hour - Sharon Horgan, Weinstein verdict, Dads and Hair, and Noor Inayat-Khan

Episode Date: February 25, 2020

The Military Wives Choir captured the nation’s hearts when they got the number one spot in the Christmas chart in 2011. In her new film, Sharon Horgan plays one of the women who got the choir started. She joins us to discuss working on the feel-good project.Yesterday, Harvey Weinstein was found guilty of committing a criminal sexual act and third degree rape - and could go to jail for over 20 years. He was acquitted of two counts of predatory sexual assault. While some are celebrating the verdict as the start of a new era and a sign of changing public attitudes towards sexual assault, Weinstein's lead attorney Donna Rotunno promised to appeal, saying "the fight is not over". So what does the ruling mean for women? Jane talks through the ramifications with Amanda Taub from the New York Times and feminist writer and commentator, Joan Smith. There are a growing number of videos on social media of dads doing hair - not their own but their daughter’s. And there are groups of men across the country who are gaining hairdressing skills so they can confidently style their daughter’s hair. Jack Woodhams is one of those dads, and he loves spending quality time with his daughter doing her hair. Khembe Clarke teaches dads the techniques they need to style their daughter’s natural afro hair.A young Muslim woman, Noor Inayat-Khan was many things: a dutiful daughter, a musician, an artist, a poet fluent in several languages and a published writer. Later, she was a vital part of the fight against Nazism, as a wireless telephonist in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force. She sacrificed her life for the cause of freedom and now a new interactive exhibition is keeping her story alive. Jane talks to Lynelle Howson, an historian at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.Presenter - Jane Garvey Producer - Anna LaceyGuest - Amanda Taub Guest - Joan Smith Guest - Sharon Horgan Guest - Lynelle Howson Guest - Khembe Clarke Guest - Jack Woodhams

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday the 25th of February 2020. Sharon Horgan is one of our guests today but we are starting, as you might expect, with Harvey Weinstein. He's no longer an alleged rapist, he's a convicted one, found guilty of committing a criminal sexual act and third-degree rape. He was acquitted of two counts of predatory sexual assault, but he could go to jail for almost 30 years. His lead attorney, Donna Rotuno, promised an appeal, saying the fight is not over and he'd taken the verdict like a man.

Well, Amanda Taub is here. She's from The New York Times. Welcome to you, Amanda. Also with us, Joan Smith, feminist writer and commentator. First of all, I think it's important to bring in the woman who really is at the heart of this. She was at the very start of the Me Too movement. She is the woman who kicked the whole thing off. It's Tarana Burke, the activist who founded Me Too back in 2006. What does she think? I'm glad that he was convicted on some of the accounts. The fact that he wasn't convicted on all five of them, we can parse that out and go over why and what laws need to be changed from now until eternity. But I'm just grateful for where we are right now. That is Tarana Burke. This is the lawyer, Gloria Allred, who represents

some of the women in the case. She was talking right outside the court in New York. It's no longer business as usual in the United States. This is the age of empowerment of women. And you cannot intimidate them anymore. Because women will not be silenced. They will speak up. They will have their voice. THEIR LIVES. THEY WILL STAND UP AND BE SUBJECTED TO YOUR SMALL ARMY OF DEFENSE ATTORNEYS CROSS-EXAMINING

THEM, ATTEMPTING TO DISCREDIT THEM, HUMILIATE THEM, SHAME THEM, AND THEY WILL STILL STAND IN THEIR TRUTH. SO HARVEY WEINSTEIN, THIS JUSTICE HAS BEEN AVAILABLE. IT HAS BEEN AVAILABLE. IT HAS BEEN AVAILABLE. and they will still stand in their truth. So Harvey Weinstein, this justice has been a long time coming, but it's finally here, and it's not the end.

Gloria Allred, a powerful statement, as you might expect. Now, Harvey Weinstein was on his way to Rikers Island Prison, but he had to go to hospital apparently with chest pains on the way. So Amanda Taub, we have been told by Gloria Ulrich, business as usual, no longer, things have really changed. Do you think they have? I think they are changing. I think that this is a sign that the Me Too movement started by Tarana Burke and continued by many women, including the women who came forward in this case, have had a real impact on the way that we see sexual assault and in particular on who we think deserves protection. What do you mean by that? So in this case, one of the things that made the prosecution challenging was that the women had business and personal

relationships with Harvey Weinstein. And that is often seen as something that is discrediting to victims of sexual assault. This is key, isn't it? I've got a quote here from a member of his defense team who argued that his relationships were consensual and transactional. Yes, and that was very much the line pushed as his defense at trial and also the claim that he has made to the public in defense to the, I believe, 90 individual women who have come forward accusing him of misconduct. And I think that that is because until very recently, we have assumed that a woman who had an ongoing relationship with a person who assaulted her, or who looked to that person for career advancement, that they must not really be a victim, that on some level, they were complicit in the violence that was perpetrated against them.

It isn't an uncommon view to hear people saying, what was she doing in his hotel room? People do say that, don't they? Right. They absolutely do. of us off the hook a little bit for not having to question the way that we judge the people in our own lives, as well as celebrities like the ones involved in this case. If you say it was the victim's fault, then you don't have to think about who we really are kind of allowing the power to commit acts like this. Because if you turn that around and say that if somebody comes into your hotel room, you are permitted to do whatever you want to them, once you put it in the active focus on the perpetrator rather than the victim's agency, then you can see how crazy it is.

Yes. Joan Smith, what about this? This business of transactional behaviour between men like Harvey Weinstein in positions of power and their female victims? Well, it's another attempt to whitewash predatory behaviour, isn't it? So it's actually suggesting there's an equality on the two sides and that both these people come into this relationship and they both have equal power and agency, which clearly isn't the case. And in this country, coercive control became a criminal offence in 2015. And that was a recognition that there is power in these relationships and sometimes that power is used in a way that's criminal. And in these instances, you're actually talking about it being used to actually facilitate assaults. I'm really glad that we were able to start with that short bit of audio from Tarana Burke

because she has been campaigning since 2006. We tried to find out this morning when Woman's Hour first mentioned Me Too. It certainly wasn't in 2006 or in 2007. I actually don't think really most of the so-called mainstream media cottoned on to this until a relatively short time ago. Well, I think that's right. But what I'm hoping about this case is that it will change our idea of what victims are, who victims are, how they behave, change our view of how predators behave, because there is still this persistent idea that rape is a stranger offence, that it's committed

by people, someone you've never met who jumps out at night. We know the majority of rapes and sexual assaults take place in the context of quite often continuing relationships. And it's important to remember that sexual predators are not rapists all the time. They can be charming, they can offer you things, which is the point about supposedly being transactional, that these women had very little power, they wanted a career, and this man was actually using that to turn them into victims. What is going to happen next, Amanda? We know he is going to appeal. I think there was also a claim of a mistrial as well, wasn't there? I'm sure that his attorneys will raise every procedural defense that they can.

That's absolutely standard for this type of case. The way these cases work in the United States is that on appeal, the findings of fact from the jury will stand unless there is some jury-related misconduct discovered. So essentially, unless there is a mistrial declared, then the findings of fact, what he did to these victims, that will stand on appeal. They can only challenge procedural legal matters, things like what evidence should and shouldn't have been introduced. And his conviction for third degree rape, a lot of people in on things like whether the victim was a child, whether there was violence and injury as a result of the rape, how violent, how exploitative it was, that sort of thing. So third degree rape is still rape. It is not in any way a lesser offense. The change really is that it can be heightened by. Right. And American various states have different laws, but the statute of limitations is important

here. We don't, Joan, we don't have a British equivalent, do we? Not an exact replica of what happens in the States. So in fact, I was thinking only this morning of a case we drew attention to on the programme yesterday of a brave woman who'd managed to get her stepfather convicted of sexual assault against her. And it was many, many decades after it had happened. So women in this country can still come forward years after offences have taken place. Yes. And of course, it was when Jimmy Savile was exposed. I think the oldest case that was brought to the attention of the police was about 40 or 45 years beforehand. And so sometimes women are living with this for an incredibly long time

before they feel able to come forward. But of course, you know, in that case, Savile was dead by the time the whole thing came into the open. And I think what we need is a much more sophisticated understanding of what rape is, the circumstances in which it takes place. Because in this country, we now have a rape conviction rate of under 2% of the rapes that are reported to the police. And we know there's a vast number that never get there. So I think this is all incredibly, you know, it's powerful, it's important.

But we're starting from such a bad situation. Well, we are. And of course, the jury here didn't convict on all accounts and took five days to come to their decision. Amanda, what would you say about that? I would say that this wasatory sexual behavior, which required the jury to find that he had committed serious sexual offenses against at least three women. There were only two individual women whose cases were before the jury, the two who he was convicted of assaulting. And there was originally a third case, but there were evidentiary issues with that one. So it dropped out. So the jury was asked to consider the testimony of Annabella Sciorra,

an actress who said that Mr. Weinstein had forcibly raped her. But her case was outside the statute of limitations. And so the jury were not asked to convict Mr. Weinstein on those charges directly. And that's the type of situation where juries are often just very reluctant to move forward. We need jury education, I think you probably, well, we need public education, don't we, Jo? these high profile cases and then a few months later a survey will come out showing really alarming punitive attitudes towards victims, you know, if women have been drinking this idea that you go back to a hotel room constitutes consent it's a complete and utter nonsense you can refuse sexual activity

even when it's started and the idea that by saying yes I'll come up for a drink you've consented to a whole load of other things on a menu you know nothing about, it's just a nonsense but a lot of people believe it. And we need to make clear that Tarana Burke, when she started the Me Too movement back in 2006, it was about women in marginalized communities. And there will be a lot of people listening today who think, well, acting, the world of Hollywood,

this is a million, it's a million miles away from me in my daily existence. And this court ruling in a foreign court, how would it really impact on the lives of women, marginalised women in this country, Joan? What would you say about that? I think overall the feeling will be that someone has actually, someone really powerful and important, who's got the best possible advice money can buy, has actually had to answer for what he did.

And I think regardless of the kind of celebrity element to this, I think it's a very powerful message to women that it may take years, but, you know, we are moving very slowly towards a situation where more victims are believed, and that's a good thing. And he faces more charges, doesn't he, Amanda? He does, and I think that to add to what Joan just said, something that's really important here is even though these victims were in many ways more powerful and privileged than the women who Tarana Burke has been advocating for for more than a decade, they were still less powerful than Harvey Weinstein. And abusers, rapists, people looking to commit sexual assault, they also know that power dynamics matter. They also know that victim credibility matters. There's a fair amount of research and evidence that shows that they select and groom and identify

victims based on the people who they think will not be protected, will not be believed. And so I think that this case is an important step forward towards changing that dynamic and making those power differentials matter a little less. And the prospect that he hadn't been convicted, Joan, what on earth would that have done? Oh, I was so worried about this. I got a news alert yesterday saying he'd been convicted

and the sense of relief, I think lots and lots of women felt the same, you know, that regardless of the kind of rather, you know, unusual circumstances of the case and the element of Hollywood, etc. I think the idea, it would have been such a setback if he'd been found innocent of all these charges, particularly after what the victims went through. I mean, one of them was so distressed that the trial had to be halted early. I mean, it's not easy for women to do this. It really isn't, even if you are somebody who's got support from lawyers and so on. And, you know, the idea that women would go through that

and then he would have walked free was almost unthinkable, but I thought it might happen. I think it's... Oh, sorry, Sharon. Sorry, let me tell you. Let me, I haven't got your microphone on. Sharon Horgan is with us. Go on, Sharon. Well, let me tell you. You haven't got your microphone on. Sharon Horgan is with us. Go on, Sharon.

Well, no, I was just going to say that I think it's such a wonderful and right result, what happened. But I think it still sort of exposes the difficulties women face when they come forward. I mean, what they went through in that trial, of course it was the right and proper result, but I still think it's, you know, that statistic you said about 2%, I mean, that's terrifying.

I don't know what, I mean, any one of us could be on a rape jury, couldn't we? I mean, actually, I think it's unlikely that some of us would be chosen for a rape jury, I'm thinking about it, but we could be, and I confess that all of us have got inbuilt misogyny of our own in some circumstances. I'm capable of making appalling judgments about other people's behavior. I don't like it very much about myself, but I think I'm capable of it. I know. I know. And it was a complex case for that reason.

But I think generally you're able to sort of put that to bed, especially in a case like this when it is so much about power. It's about a man in a powerful position. Yeah, and I did say that, of course, this is about one particular aspect of life and most of us are not actresses. That is in no way deriding or denigrating those women and their courage in coming forward. Completely.

Hugely significant. But juries are drawn from the general public who see headlines about, you know, the idea that men live in terror of a false rape conviction. There's very, very few of those. Why would women put themselves through this absolutely horrific experience of having to give evidence and be asked about their sex lives?

Why would they put themselves through that if they were making a false allegation? I mean, it's just an extraordinary idea about human nature, but you will see it in the media all the time. Yeah, we've got to keep on challenging that. Joan, thank you very much. Thank you for coming in and respect to you as well. Amanda Taub, thank you very much. Joan Smith and Amanda

Taub. And Sharon Horgan is here actually to talk about the Military Wives film, which is out. When is it? It comes out this weekend, doesn't it? I'm pretty sure it's out March 6th. Just the job for International Women's Day and Mother's Day is coming up as well, so you know exactly what you're doing.

This is about the Military Wives Choir and it got to, I think, number one in the charts back in 2011. Yeah, it became a sort of, well, they became a sort of media sensation. They kind of toured the world and they had their Christmas number one and performed at the Festival of Remembrance

at the Royal Albert Hall and our film only takes it up to that particular point but yeah mainly it's about this group of women who formed a choir when their partners were deployed to Afghanistan to sort of you know know, I mean, if it's possible, take their mind off this incredibly difficult situation that they had absolutely no control over. So, yeah, it was just sort of help unite that community.

How much did you know about the way British army bases work? I mean, I learned quite a bit from the film, actually. audience because it's um it's a community that people know very little about and they are so isolated i mean even the towns where these military bases are set the people you know outside of the military bases they're kind of invisible yeah to them and they have these hierarchies which i didn't understand either so you play the wife of i think it's the regimental sergeant major yes sergeant major so so my character starts off just, you know, well, she married a squaddie and, you know, got pregnant and found herself in this situation that she hadn't planned for in her life. And then he kind of rises up through the ranks

and suddenly she's RSM's wife and is given all these responsibilities. And that comes with a role all of its own. Yeah, I mean, it's, well, the role is sort of, you know, I guess helping the women get through it. But she isn't that character. It's not a role that she wants. It's kind of just... Although she grows into it magnificently, I have to say.

It's also about the class system because a lot of the film is about your friendship with... Kristen Scott Thomas's character, yeah. Yeah, and she is the wife of the colonel. She is, yes. Right, but she's a different kettle of fish altogether, isn't she? Yeah, I mean, she's someone who really enjoys telling people what to do. I mean, and she's suffering this, you know, she's in a terribly bad place at the start of and throughout the movie, really.

And so she kind of gets more involved in, you know, keeping the women occupied when their partners are deployed. And part of that is telling my character what to do. And my character really doesn't enjoy being told what to do. And it's a disparate group of women brought together in, as you say, in these quite enclosed, isolated communities, with on the face of it, precious little in common. Precious little in common.

Except that they're all in the British. Except that all their partners are, you know, in the army really. And so, yeah, but the great thing about the choir is that it's inclusive of everyone. You know, there's like sergeant majors' wives and colonels' wives and, you know, privates' wives as well. And I was part of the fun of making it actually because the casting of that group of women,

it was such an amazing, diverse and wonderful group. What about, what is it about the power of singing? Because I confess I was watching it, I had a screener, one of those screeners, sneaky screeners, and I watched it yesterday at work, watching telly at the licence fairs expense. Well, come on, it's part of the job Well I've got to have the occasional perk. Anyway

and there were some great tunes I was humming, it was Yazoo's Only You I mean I'd love to be in a choir singing that They went for a really great 80s vibe for the whole thing that I was thrilled about because when we got the scripts initially, and the script like changed a lot like all scripts do

but it was a completely different set of songs. And Chris and I both remember thinking at the time, it's all going to be down to the songs, you know. But the joy of singing together, even if it's not your bag, even if you're not very good at it at all, it's such a wonderful kind of life-affirming feeling. I'm sure somebody's done research on it. If they haven't, they should.

Because why is it? Because it is a glorious sensation. Do you know, I think it's got to do with all sorts of things. You sort of breathe differently. You know, there's sort of oxygen going to different parts of the body that you don't normally go to. But I think when you're singing in a group, it's something else entirely

because you really do rely on each other and it always sounds better when you're singing in a group, it's something else entirely because you really do rely on each other and it always sounds better when you're all, you know, working in tandem and with the harmonies and stuff. And like a lot of us were genuinely not very talented in that area, but we'd sort of rely on the few good singers that were in there and everyone just, you know, it sort of benefited everyone for it to sound good. But we came out of the film at the end just feeling down. We were down, you know, because you get such a sort of lovely sort of blast of joy from singing.

What about the fact that I think it's been put to you a thousand times already and you're only in the early stages of publicising this film, but this is the first properly respectable bit of work you've ever done that my own mother could enjoy, Sharon. Yeah, there's no bad sex in it whatsoever. Nothing. It is genuinely respectable. I think there is all sorts of important topics and issues that it deals with.

I should say, these people are only ever a phone call away from receiving devastating news about somebody they care for. And coping with all the stuff that we normally have to cope with, you know, raising children and holding down jobs and doing it on their own a lot of the time. You know, sometimes their partners are deployed for six months and life just has to continue in that constant sort of sense of something around the corner that that's going to devastate their lives and we associate you of course with stuff that comes from your own

experience and your own writing is is i mean you say you've i bet you twiddled with the script we we twiddled a little but um because they were were you know incredibly generous and inclusive so Kristen and I I think just sort of wanted to help inject a bit of you know ourselves a little bit because we sort of are to a certain extent those characters

a little bit Kristen would probably kill me for saying that but yeah we were able to get involved but enough and it was still for me it was this great sort of busman's holiday of being able to park all the stuff that I normally do. Yeah, and just enjoy it. Just enjoy it, just like sing. Obviously, you are well known for Catastrophe,

which you wrote with Rob Delaney. I don't understand, how do you write with someone else? Oh, it's great. Are you both in the same room? Who does the typing? You're both in the same room. It sort of depends on who you're working with. But with Rob and I, I took charge of the keyboard

because that, in my weird, not controlling way, but I just needed to do it. I just needed my hands on the keys. And also he has this sort of wonderful, sort of genius ability to just riff off the top of his head and I have an ability to be able to see what works and what doesn't and get it down. But yeah, it just sort of depends on who you're writing with.

Who is the funnier, you or him? Jesus. Well, probably him, if I'm honest. I know my skills, but, you know, he's a stand-up and he's an enormously sort of quick thinker and has like I said this ability

to just be able to riff something that when you transcribe it it's almost perfect but you know in fairness to myself

I think it worked because it was the two of us together do be fair to yourself yeah I am going to be fair to myself I think it's popularly agreed

you're quite funny oh thanks very much Sharon Horgan who's quite funny. And you can see her in Military Wives, which is, there are moments of humour, but it's actually, it's a very genuine film as well. It's a genuine film. It's what they call heartwarming. Yes.

May that be the first of your many heartwarming pieces of work, Sharon. Yeah, let's see. Good to see you. Thank you very much. You're welcome. That's Sharon Horgan. Now, do you understand the term Mercury retrograde?

If you do, you might be one of those people who's beginning to take astrology more seriously than in the past. So this is something that Jenny will be discussing on Woman's Hour tomorrow. I don't believe

any of that astrology thing. I'm a home-loving, creative Cancerian, but I just think it's all nonsense. Right, let's now talk to a fantastic person, historian at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, Linnell Howson. Linnell, welcome to the programme. Good to see you. Thank you so much for having me. Well, we're here to celebrate, and I do mean celebrate, the work of a woman called Noor Inayat Khan, a heroine of World War II, an agent for the SOE, which was the Special

Operations Executive. Fascinating life story this. She was born in Moscow, but died in Dachau just in 1944. She was very young. She was in her early 30s when she died? 30. Yeah. She was a poet of Indian and American descent, fluent in several languages, and now the subject of an interactive exhibition at the Runnymede Memorial. Now, is this because she's had a sort of moment, Noor Inayat Khan, because she was one of the figures discussed potentially as featuring on the £50 note? She's been in Doctor Who as a character as well. Is this why she's now getting this exhibition too? Well, actually, no. I think we happened to come to decide to make an exhibition about her in like an exhibition we go and look for a really great story to do what we would like to do and here in receipt of some funding from the AIM

and BIFA award history makers we needed and wanted to look for a woman we wanted to look for a woman commemorated here a woman who used technology in her, a woman that would really appeal to young women who would really like to reach through this work. And as you'll see, Noor Ilyad Khan is a wonderful example of so many things that we would like young women to interact with. Well, we'll talk about all her achievements and her skills in a moment. But she's sometimes referred to as being an Indian princess. She wasn't actually, was she? No, you'd have to go many, many, many generations back to trace some kind of lineage to one of the Indian royal houses. So you can understand why book marketers might like to call her a princess.

But really, by the time she was born, the family is not in any way sort of recognised as royal or really functioning that way at all. I mean, she is, when she's born, the first child of an itinerant musician and Sufi practitioner, someone who's really living a hand-to-mouth existence from country to country. Yeah, born in Moscow, where did she grow up? Well, she had a very unsettled life for the first sort of six to eight years, because her father and his brothers were in a musical group, and they were using the musical group to sort of spread Sufi ideas around Europe. And so they were going from gig to gig, really, but these gigs are in places like Moscow, Paris, London. So although born in Moscow,

within a few months, they moved moved to Paris and then this is 1914 in August the war begins and they decide that maybe London would be safer than Paris so they moved to London they spend the rest of the war in London and then when the family is being kind of had very close attention being paid to them by some of the well really the secret service here they were concerned about their connections potentially to the Indian independence movement and life was uncomfortable. And so they decided France might be a better place. So they moved to France.

Isn't that ironic though? Yes. The secret service here for whom she went on to work. Well, different organization, but still secret. Yes. Yes. Well, you know what I mean? Britain hadn't been all that kind to her.

No, but I suppose in the end, the reasons why she decided to join up when it came to the Second World War really override that sort of thing. Because we should make clear, she certainly didn't need to. She absolutely did not. So she grew up in France from the age of six in Paris. So she was fluent in English and in French. And she also spoke Hindu, Stani and other languages, a little bit of German. And she and her brother both raised to believe

very much in nonviolence as part of the gentle religion that they had grown up in. But when they saw Nazism on the rise, and in fact, when it came really to their door in France, they both decided that they could not sit by and let other people fight Nazis for them. So they decided that they would need to join up. And in order to do that, they made themselves refugees. They left France in order to come to the United Kingdom and play a part, some kind of part. And her brother Vilayet was of the opinion that if they were going to break their non-violent principles, that they would have to do it for a very good reason. They would have to do it and be the most brave to do things that are dangerous because you're not actually yourself holding a weapon to hurt people. It's all very humbling hearing this, actually, I have to say. it gives you tingles when you realize the sacrifices some people were prepared to make. So how did she get to work for SOE because she seems an unlikely recruit. Well she's both unlikely and likely. So SOE very much needed people who were fluent in French. Of course. And she absolutely was. They needed people who

could blend into the societies of the countries they were going to be sent back into she had grown up in france so she was a wonderful candidate in that way but actually the part that makes her unlikely is that because she isn't uh typical she's not white uh she uh when they found out about her father being a religious leader some of them thought that was a bit strange um and uh because of course he's not a reverend religious leader. He's from an Indian religion. And also because she was a woman. Fundamentally, this is a time when women are not allowed in combat roles. They're not allowed in the front line.

They aren't given weapons and sent to fight. But this is really a combat role but without a gun when they send you in to be a wireless operator behind enemy lines. You put it like that, you wonder why anyone agrees and the life expectancy of somebody in that line of work? That is a very hard thing to express mostly because averages don't really work when you're talking about lots of different people. We know it was very, very dangerous and that wireless operating was actually more dangerous than the other roles because as long as you are on the air, you can be found. You can be tracked because they can track your transmissions. But you can't not

transmit. That's your job. That's what you're there to be, is a link between the people in the field and headquarters. So she landed in France, was she on her own? She came into France actually on a two aeroplane drop. So they brought in four people that night, three of them women, one man, and they dispersed to different parts of France immediately to join different circuits, which are the names of the groups of SOE agents and the resistance. And because she'd spent time in France when she was younger, did she have connections there, people she could trust?

She did. She wasn't supposed to be working in Paris to start with where her connections were. She ended up working in Paris and definitely needing to use her connections from her childhood. Wireless operators in order to try not to get caught need to move as much as possible. You can't just pick a great place, set up your radio and just pop in twice a day because they're going to catch you. So you to be able to uh move a lot and find the right place to put up i mean we're talking about a 70 foot aerial that you have to put up without someone seeing you um and you need to be able to transmit quietly undisturbed you need to be able

to see people coming like so she did use uh her connections from her childhood to find new places to transmit perhaps inevitably um the nazis did catch up with her, didn't they? They did. And as we've already said, she ended, unfortunately, ended up in Dachau. How long did she spend in custody? Do we know? She was caught in October 1943, maybe one to two days before she was due to be fetched out and brought back to the United Kingdom,

having been under difficult, difficult circumstances working for four months in Paris, very dangerous. She was betrayed, actually. So they never discovered her through her transmitting, but she was betrayed by someone for money. So then she was in custody from October 43 until she was killed in September 44. Why did they hold her for so long? I don't really know. I have noticed that women agents in general have were kept in captivity before being killed far longer than than male agents. Potentially there was a hang up about how we think we know what they were up to. We're not really sure nor refuse to relieve any. Sorry not to relieve.

She refused to release any information under interrogation like she was a hard case they couldn't get anything out of her and they tried and tried but maybe there was a little bit of a reluctance to know what to do with these women agents it was a bit easier with a man clearly you're a man who's a spy this is very naughty i'm allowed to kill you i will uh but the women spent a lot longer in Kefetibi. And for Noor, she was in shackles for 10 months in a prison. All day, she was in shackles around her wrists and her feet and in solitary confinement. We should say posthumously, she was awarded the George Cross

and for outstanding bravery, obviously, which is the highest award you can get. As a civilian, yes. Because officially she was one. Officially she was a civilian. There are some people who really feel that it's a little unfair that members of the SOE were only given civilian awards because they really were doing military work in many cases but yes she was seen as a civilian she was awarded as a civilian. Well we are approaching the 75th anniversary of VE Day, aren't we? So high time that we paid more consideration to the phenomenal bravery of people like Noor Inyat Khan.

Thank you so much for telling us so much about her. That was brilliant. Thank you. That is Lynnell Howson. She's from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. And there's more about Noor in that new interactive exhibition at the Runnymede Memorial. When does it open? It opens on International Women's Day, March 8th.

So we're featuring an international woman on International Women's Day. Brilliant. That's Sunday, March the 8th that starts. Thank you very much. Now, you might be aware of the growing number of videos out there on social media featuring dads doing their daughter's hair. There are also apparently groups of men across the country who are gaining hairdressing skills so they can be confident in styling their daughter's hair.

Let's talk to Jack Woodhams, who is the founder of Yorkie Dads. And Kemby Clark teaches dads the techniques they need to style their daughter's natural Afro hair. Jack, Kemby, good morning to you. Jack, first of all, tell me why you wanted to learn more about your daughter's hair. Oh, hello. Thanks for having me on. Well, I've got five brothers and we're all follicly challenged. Two of them are still hanging in there. Sam, Ben, you really got to get rid of it. And so I've been bald for 22 years, so I've had absolutely nothing to do with hair and until my little bundle of joy and and noise poppy arrived and my wife decided to grow her hair like Rapunzel and I'd see my wife every

morning doing my daughter's hair and they're having very special times and I thought I really want to be part of that and so I tried and hacked into my daughter's hair and she just cried and cried and cried. And you were anxious to get it right because men like to get this is a generalisation. But on the whole, men do like to get stuff right. Well, yeah, we're fixers. That's what we do. We want it. We want to get things right. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Kemby, I know that you're involved in teaching dads. Do many of them come to you willingly?

Are they sent? How does it all work? To be fair, they don't. Thanks for having me, by the way. And yeah, they don't usually come willingly. We've had to really promote the fact that we want to teach dads to do their daughter's hair. And I did that through a festival called Return to Your Roots and we had a workshop right and it was hard because

dads kind of stay away from you know doing that that's seen as a woman's kind of role but we thought it would be a real good challenge and yeah we we got them into the room about 10 dads kicking and screaming um a few really wanted to do it and um yeah when they got there they were really anxious and didn't know what to do felt really nervous but once they got stuck in and were understanding you know the nature of um black hair afro-caribbean hair hair, they then started to learn some of the techniques. So, so yeah, they have been willing in some cases, but yeah, definitely having had to pull them in. Certain amount of pressure in some cases. What do you think about the idea that maybe we're giving too much credit to dads for doing something that would be, well,

it wouldn't be discussed at all if it was a woman doing it. What would you say, Kemby? That's very, very true. I think things are actually changing now, though, that it's very difficult sometimes for men knowing what their roles are, but things are changing in the sense that a lot more men have to deal with their daughters' hair. They might be on their own with their daughters, bringing them

up raising them um you know mothers might have to go off into into hospital or whatever and they've got daughter's hair to look after and particularly in the african caribbean community um if you don't know how to do your daughter's hair it is a real challenge because you cannot just fling a bubble or pigtails into into the hair because of the texture particularly if it's tightly curled yeah you really need to know how to manage it so I think that's a kind of feeling yeah I really think I do need to learn how to do this in order one to bond with their daughters and also with the rise in natural hair that's also presented some more challenges so rather than having the daughter's hair is permed or you know processed

they're now having to deal with more challenges in terms of detangling and all of that before doing it so they do need to learn. Little girls know their own mind don't they absolutely yeah jack do you take orders from poppy uh yeah yeah i take orders from everybody in my household but i suppose back to your last question i don't think he's getting too much too much publicity i think it's no no it's it's a positive and a good thing and it's not about the hair it's about dads trying to you know everybody's busy but trying to have some good time and and I'm absolutely rubbish I mean and I run the school um I go and I make tea and coffee but that's not what it's about it's about guys getting together having some having some time

together to to talk to open up to offload you know the pub culture's gone we're we're not going down and talking to each other and we're creating friendships where people can you know can really offload and open up whilst doing something fun and we do that with Yorkie dads across the board we have a breakfast school we've got a dad's lads and daughters fitness class we've got a lego group we should make clear it's not just about hair is it it's about but it is about fatherhood it's yeah it's about fatherhood and being involved you know and i don't want to i don't want to dwell on this point uh but you know part of everything that we're doing you know suicide is quite high um certainly in york and what we're trying to do is encourage dads

to get out to to open up to talk talk, to offload and make friendships. And part of Yorkie Dads now, we've actually set up another group called Menfulness, which has been a... guys have wanted to join who weren't dads, but they just wanted to be involved with this positive thing where guys are offloading and opening up. And now we've got a Menfulness group with walk and talk. We've got social circuits. and that's what it's all about right the hair is secondary yeah i get i absolutely get that it does sound as though you're doing really good stuff but do you think thank you do you think that mothers maybe have a part to play here and that they in the past have made have made parenting a little bit too hard for men

to penetrate in some way it's actually been quite hard on dads to get involved yeah i think i certainly from the beginning you know like midwives would talk to the mums and not really recognize the dads but i do feel it's changing certainly it's partnership you know me and my wife we we talk to each other and it's it's about uh you know everyone brings different skills and feeling of value everybody wants to feel value and has got something to offer but yeah my wife would naturally and still now my wife wouldn't actually go and do my daughter's hair um and but you know if we can't give opportunities but saying that since we've set up a hair school we now have and since we're on bbc in the news with there are five new dads hair school there's been a hair school revolution but also maria from pretty plat she runs 10 women hair schools as well so it's not just about dads it's

just that we get credit and hopefully in 10 years time we won't be talking about this we won't be talking about hair school that's it's just it is a new and novel thing but it gets the message and gets the debate but certainly let's it's the partnership isn't it yeah and can be it's really very briefly if you don't mind it's just about that connection it's a very intimate thing to do actually doing somebody's hair isn't it it is and i really think it's also about dads bonding with their daughters having that special time where it's just them and their daughters having some fun, but dad's doing something constructive and, you know, daughter's kind of telling the dads,

you know, do it like this, do it like that, I love it. But it is about bonding and also not seeing that role as just for the woman to be doing, but also, you know, lines are being blurred, you know, men's roles are not as clear as they used to be. Well, you know, why can't they do their daughter's hair? It's a great thing. Kembe Clark and Jack Woodhams.

Kembe Clark teaches dads the techniques they need to style their daughter's hair. And Jack, he's the founder of an organisation called Yorkie Dads. So if you're in that part of the world, Yorkshire, and you're a dad and you'd like to take part in some of the events, I'm sure it's not that difficult to find out about them. Now, to your thoughts on the programme today. I'm listening, says Sharon, to dads talking about cutting their hair,

styling hair, made me smile. I'm not from the Afro-Caribbean community, but my 12-year-old son Marcus cuts my hair for me. Well, well done, Marcus. He sounds, I wish my children took an interest in my hair. me. Well, well done, Marcus. He sounds, wish my children took an interest in my hair. They just mock it and move on. Catherine says, I wish somebody could teach me how to do my daughter's hair. Most of the time she goes to school looking like a bird is nesting on her head. Sounds like your daughter could be related to me, Catherine. And from Amanda,

this isn't just for men. I struggled with my daughter's afro hair and so did my Jamaican mother-in-law she had three boys all grew up with shaved heads I would have loved a course like this when she was little but I should say she is now 16 and she does it herself brilliantly Sharon Horgan listening to

Sharon talking about the Military Wives film and having left military quarters last year, I'm still an army wife but I don't travel about with my husband because I can't stand being his dependent any longer. I wasn't keen on the film as I found the pressures of quarters life too much and the trailer looked a bit flimsy. I'm glad that the film offers a glimpse of what army life is like for the family left behind, rather than the dramatic exploits of the serving partner.

I'm definitely more likely to see it if it's not a glossy version of military life. Yeah, it's interesting that you had that thought about it based on the trailer. I've seen the trailer too, and I know what you mean, but I wouldn't rule out seeing the film. I think it's actually

rather different, the film, in its entirety. So give it a whirl. Rosamund says, while I applaud in every way the military wives' choirs and the joy and cohesion they've brought, why on earth use Kristen Scott Thomas as the colonel's wife? She's 20 years too old and therefore nothing like the real people. This just reinforces stereotypical views of army wives, which are wrong.

Well, in Kristen Scott Thomas's defence, she's a very good actress. And also, I think when you're putting a film together and you're getting the finance together, the truth is you need names. You need people who bring the money in. It is as simple as that, but it's a point. Sue says, why was there no mention of the wonderful Gareth Malone board with the film and for various film script reasons, he just wasn't involved in the actual film.

But I mean, they go through all kinds of processes, don't they? Putting movies together, I confess I've very little understanding myself, but I know there's an awful lot that goes on behind the scenes. Anne said, I went to a showing of this film

at an Everyman cinema in London and there was a Q&A with the producer. There were lots of questions about the singing and the song repertoire. And I'd just like to say that there has been a lot of research into the benefits, both physical and emotional, of singing in groups. Some people believe it should be on the NHS.

So I took the Q&A as an opportunity for some free PR for the Rock Choir, which is a fantastic thing to be a part of. It's a no-audition audition choir open to anyone and everyone. And most of the songs in that film have been performed by rock choirs across the country. Well, there you go. It seems entirely reasonable, actually, Anne, to give a plug to the Rock Choir, because I know loads of our listeners are already members and many more, I'm sure, would like to join. That's it. Thank you very much for listening.

Jenny is here tomorrow and her guests include the brilliant Irish writer Anne Enright. Hi, everyone. Russell Cain here. I've got just a few seconds to tell you about Evil Genius, our hit podcast, two and a half million downloads in 2019, top 10, where we take people from history, Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher, John Lennon, and detonate fact bombs around their reputations. It's stuff you don't want to know, but you really do want to know. At the end of a lively debate, my panel of esteemed guests,

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