Woman's Hour - Sharon Osbourne, Shani Dhanda, Nurses and their mental health

Episode Date: November 24, 2023

For more than two decades, Sharon Osbourne has been a regular feature on our screens. She came to prominence while appearing with her husband Ozzy on The Osbournes - a reality television show on MTV, which followed the family's daily life. She later became a talent show judge on television programmes such as the X Factor and America's Got Talent. She joins Anita Rani to discuss her forthcoming theatre show - Sharon Osbourne - Cut The Crap! - in which she promises to reveal all about some of the hardest years of her eventful life.The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) is warning of a growing mental health crisis amongst nursing staff, as its membership support line data shows a substantial increase in the number of nursing staff seeking help for having suicidal thoughts. We hear from Hannah Cadogan - a nurse currently working in the NHS - and Stephen Jones, the Lead for Mental Health at the RCN to unpick what lies behind this increase.Dr Shani Dhanda is a disability inclusion & accessibility specialist, social entrepreneur and broadcaster. This month she was named the UK’s most influential disabled person by the Shaw Trust as part of the Disability Power 100 nominated by the public and judged by an independent panel. Shani is also an Ambassador for disability charity Scope. The Autumn Statement was controversial in its announcements affecting sick and disabled people, with the Government claiming their changes would support more people into work and campaigners and some professionals saying they could make the situation worse. Shani joins us to give her take, but also to discuss her life.Women composers for the film, TV and gaming industries are rare; this month a report, Female Professionals in European Film Production 2023 revealed only 10% of European film composers are women; and in this year’s GameSoundCon Game Audio Industry Survey, women game composers and sound designers made up only 15% of the talent. Anita discusses what can be done to reduce the gender gap in the media music industry with the composers Hannah Peel and Bishi.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We have some incredible women on the programme, as per usual, real powerhouses, all of whom have had at some point to stand up and take charge of a situation. What a line-up today. I cannot wait to talk to Sharon Osbourne, who fiercely defends her family and arguably has built her family. She is without a doubt the rock at the centre of it. Also joining me will be Shani Danda, a disability activist who has overcome

so much prejudice to become the remarkable and inspirational woman who's just been named the UK's most influential disabled person. And Hannah Peel and Bishi, two of the very few women composing music for screen and pushing for change. Plus, we'll be talking about how nurses are coping with the pressure of the job. All brave, all resilient women who stand up and speak out. So this morning, I want to hear from you about when you have had to stand up for what you believe in. A defining moment in your life, maybe, where you surprised yourself and found the courage to step up, even if you didn't want to, but you did anyway. And you're proud of yourself for doing it, whether it's defending a friend or a family member, getting out of your comfort zone and trying something you never thought you'd be able to do, where you found the courage to really speak your mind, the moment you found your voice to hell with the consequences. I cannot wait to hear from you all this morning.

Get in touch with me in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email me by going to our website. You can WhatsApp us or even leave me a voice note if you would like to. It would be nice to hear someone's voice. 03700 100 444. And of course, if you want to get in touch with us via social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour.

And you never know, if something's chewing you up inside, you may be inspired after this to spit it out, having listened to our incredible line-up of guests. And that text number, once again, 84844. But on to my first guest. For more than two decades Sharon Osbourne has been a regular feature on our screens. She came to prominence whilst appearing with her husband Ozzy on The Osbournes, a reality television show on MTV which followed the family's daily life. I'd say the OG of reality TV shows. She later became a talent show judge on shows such as The X Factor

and America's Got Talent. Well, she's just announced dates for a live theatre show entitled Sharon Osbourne Cut the Crap, in which she promises to reveal all about some of the hardest years of her incredibly eventful life, from the anguish of a broken marriage and Aussie's infidelities, to the constant spectre of drug abuse in the family, the loss of friends, betrayal by colleagues, and her ongoing battles with weight, mental health issues. She's going to rivvy little.

Well, I'm delighted to say that Sharon joins me now live in the studio. Sharon, welcome to Woman's Hour. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you you I'm very happy to be here. It's good I'm really pleased you're here too um let's get straight to it what a great title Sharon Cut the Crap it's perfect um why have you decided to do this why now? Um it's a good time for me personally and I'd done it in Canada and Australia, and I really enjoyed it. And a producer asked me if I wanted to do it here, and I, yeah, let's give it a go. Just how honest are you being in that?

There's no point in doing it if you're not going to be totally honest. There's really no point, because then you're just playing games, you know. So just totally honest. And I think that we all have different opinions at different stages of our life, depending how old we are. Yeah. And that's the thing about life. You know, you learn from your mistakes. You learn more with age.

And it's, you know, I'm quite comfortable talking about anything in my life. So what stage are you at right now? The last chapter in my life. What do you think? Do you think that? Yeah, you know, I've lived such a full, full amazing life. And, you know, we all know nobody lasts forever and i reckon i'm on my last chapter and this last chapter i even though it feels weird saying that because you know it's like we just could go on forever but um is bringing you back after 27 years to the uk you've

lived in america we know because we've seen, we were invited into your home. We'll talk about the Osbournes in a bit and what that did for you into your very glamorous and unique life that we were all invited into. But you are now coming back to the UK because of Ozzy's health. He's got Parkinson's. So how's he doing? And why did you decide that it was time to leave America? It's just, you know, as we change over time, so do places. And for me personally, L.A. has changed, but not for the better. It's not what it used to be. And I, you know, I just feel uncomfortable there right now. My family will still be there. So we'll go back and forth, I just feel uncomfortable there right now. My family will still be there.

So we'll go back and forth, I'm sure. But our main place, we've switched it from being in L.A. to England. And what will that mean? Do you feel like you're coming home or do you feel like it's going to be a new start for you? No, it's home. It's always been home. I'm not, I don't think i'm very american and i just feel more at home here and i it's i know it's just time i miss the

the culture here the lifestyle it just you know look at it now at christmas time it's magnificent here it's so special and you know you go you go and have christmas in la it's sunny it's not festive they've got one dusty old father christmas in a sleigh that they dig the same one they dig out every year and hang it and um it just isn't festive at all and i mentioned there that you know ozzy's health he's got parkinson's he's had several operations in recent years following an accident so how's how's he doing and how much of this move is is for that reason a lot of it is for ozzy to be able to live with some privacy because where we live in the countryside, it's not full of paps and, you know, it's not a busy little town. And we have a lot of land and he'll be able to walk around and pursue his hobbies that he loves doing and without being bothered you know it's it's very frustrating

for him to when he goes out or if he wants to go for a walk even around where we live followed by paps and they're always you know the pictures always he doesn't look his best and then they say you know how frail how long has he got to go and it's like it's um you lose your dignity somehow I said at the beginning you're a woman who you know is the rock of your family you take charge I feel like this is you again saying this is what I need to do for my family this is what's best for us yeah it's definitely I I feel what's best for Ozzy right now you've been married for over 40 years. Yeah, can you believe it?

You got together when you took over managing him. Yeah. Which we'll discuss. Incredible story as well. What's kept you together all this time? Because it's not been easy. No, it's not. But I don't think any relationship is easy after a few years.

You know, you just hope that you will grow together in the same direction. Because after that first initial, you've found each other and, you know, the butterflies and can't live without each other. That settles like everything else does. And then you have to, you know, see other qualities in each other that are just as exciting about respecting each other and people's loyalties in situations. And you have to keep it ever evolving. Which is true. However, not everyone is married to Ozzy Osbourne.

Not everyone's married to a rock star. Not everyone's married to the heightened level of things that you've been through. So I'm just fascinated by you and what you have that means that you have the power and the capacity and the resilience to keep going it's um i never ever got married to one day be divorced that was not not my thing i never i never um it wasn't on my wish list to get married i was quite happy working being single loved my work and And it just, I used to think as a younger woman, oh, it's not for me. And it's not my priority in life to get married and have kids. I just love my work.

And then, of course, you meet the right person and your opinions and your life changes with that. And the way you met him, I think, is a real insight into you, which is what I'm interested in today, the real Sharon. Who are you and what makes you tick and how you've got to where you are? Because your father used to manage Black Sabbath. He managed a lot of bands, didn't he?

A lot of bands, yeah, he did. Go on, give us a roll call, name text some names for us. Oh, my God. To go back to the Animals, Eric Burden and the Animals and Electric Light Orchestra, The Move, Roy Wood, Lindsay DePaul. This is Don Arden, your father. Yeah, my dad. So he's quite a player.

Yeah, very much. Yeah. Quite a character. Yes. And then he decided he didn't want to look after Black Sabbath. So you stepped in and said, I'll manage them. Is that how it happened? No, it was. I'd first met Ozzy when I was 18. He came, they, Black Sabbath came into my dad's management office to see if, you know, they could work together.

Me and my father managing them. And they came in, they had a couple of meetings, and they chose to go with my father's assistants. Well, one of the people was my father's bodyguard and driver, and the other one was his day-to-day assistant. So two guys left my father to take on Black Sabbath management, and my father thought that he was going to get it. Right.

So you can imagine that went down terribly with my father and his ego. And you don't think that people are going to do that to you who work for you. But, you know, it's business. Good luck to them. And Sabbath stayed with them for nine years. And it ended terribly with lawsuits. And then I had always kept a relationship because I was on the road touring with Electric Light Orchestra. They were always on the road touring.

Yeah. And we used to bump into each other occasionally. And so I get this phone call one day from the guitar player, Tony Iommi in Sabbath. And he goes, do you think your dad would consider taking us back for management? Yeah. And he did. And then you met Ozzy. Yeah.

And then you came to prominence. We've got to get to the Osbournes when you decided to do brilliant, iconic, like I said, the OG of reality TV shows where you invited us into your home. How did that affect the family being so publicly scrutinized? The saving grace was there was no social media at that time. Yeah. So it was so different to what it would have been now. And it was a protection for my kids that there was no social media. Because you've got to remember the two of them were very young at the time, at a very impressionable age, 15 and 16.

So in that way, I'm so relieved. But the reason why we ended it, we loved doing it, and it was a great experience in life for all of us. But it was not doing well for the kids, and we realized, Ozzy and I realised, that we had to pull the plug and, you know, try and get them back onto a somewhat of a normal life. Difficult, I imagine.

Very difficult, because when you're suddenly, you know, everybody in the world wants to talk to you and think that you're, you know, oh, this family. You know, not everybody thought that we were, you know, great, but a lot of people did. And that's hard to put that down. Now, you're a very powerful, outspoken woman. And I think that's really important in the public eye because that's not easy and people don't often like that

women speaking their minds. No they don't. And you often receive a lot of flack so how do you deal with it? Excuse me I'm having my tea and it's slurping and making noises. We do that at Woman's Hour, we invite you in and we genuinely do put the kettle on. Yeah and it's lovely. And it's in a BBC mug and everything.

Yeah, how do you deal with the flack? I don't let it get to me. And the thing is, if I don't know the people personally who are commenting on me in a bad way, it doesn't mean anything because I don't know them. So I'm not invested in their opinion. So I feel it can't hurt me. But I've learned too that over the years, why look? Why? What are you going to get out of it? So I don't even bother. I mean, like I said, you are known to be outspoken. You're also fiercely

loyal to defending your family, but it has caused some controversy. And I'm thinking of the time when you defended Piers Morgan on Twitter when he said he didn't believe Meghan Markle, the Duchess of Sussex, in an interview with Oprah. How considered were your comments then? And how well did you cope with the... How well do you cope with backlash when something like that happens? Hey, Lord, my take on it was,

apart from Piers being a friend of mine and we'd worked together for a long time, and he gets paid to do a job and his job is commenting on the news, pop culture, politics, and that's his job. That's what he gets paid for. And he's in that position because he is a very outspoken person. And what he said about Meghan, some of the stuff I agreed with, some I didn't.

But he absolutely had a right to do it. Freedom of speech. And that's his profession, to make comments. And how did you cope with the backlash that you got from standing up for your friend? in my life just for defending a friend and saying freedom of speech. And then people saying, well, Piers is racist. That's why he's saying these things about Meghan. They're not true. And it's, you know, it's racism. So if you're supporting Piers, you must be a racist too.

And it's like, how do you get that one? How does this end up racism you know he's making comments about um he's making remarks on comments that megan is stating her statements and that's what he gets paid to do comment now i described you as a rock for your whole family which you are and we know you're super protective a lot of women listening to this can relate to that. Where do you get your support from? Myself. Yeah, myself. Where does that come from?

I think it's a sense of survival. Always working in an industry that was run by men. Yeah. And an industry that is a very tough industry for women. And at the time that I started in management, there were no women managers in the music industry. And it was very, very hard to have a voice. Well, even anybody wanted to listen to you. Nobody, nobody did. And it was a case of me. The only way I could deal

with the industry and the hardness of it was to be harder. And I bet there's a lot of women who know that when you just have to support yourself and have only got yourself. But isn't it exhausting, Sharon? It's absolutely exhausting. And when you go into a boardroom of men and, you know, we're talking about marketing campaigns and how much they cost and this, that and the other. And one of the guys that was one of the heads of,

it was CBS Records at the time, said to me, I've just had my suite of offices done. Do you want to come and look in the kitchen? Kitchen, why? And he said, oh, I thought it would be of interest to you in my office suite. And I go, well, actually, I don't cook. So, no, I don't want to see it.

And it was a case of somebody being not knowing what to say in a meeting to a woman manager and being embarrassed. And it's just like, why do I want to see your kitchen? Because I'm a woman. I want to see your kitchen. It's amazing that you're able to just stand up for yourself back then as well. Yeah. It's one of those, we are running out of time quickly, but I need to ask you because you have done so much

and you've said, you know, final chapter, I feel like there's still so much for you to say. And do you know what I'm really enjoying? I feel like because we see you on TV, we've seen you in these heightened TV setups. It's almost like how much of this is real? How much of it is the caricature of Sharon? And I feel that this,

maybe this last chapter that you've talked about, we're going to get a bit of this, you know, this night, like the reality of what it means, what it's taken to be you. Spoken so publicly about so much stuff. We've seen you live your life.

We know your family. You've survived and come through colon cancer you're now coming back to the UK to for the benefit of your husband you know you are you've said yourself you know you defend on yourself what the strength you must have is remarkable do you have any regrets of course I do. I have regrets. But what can you do? The only thing you can do is learn from them and hope that you don't do the same things again. But yeah, of course I have regrets, many. Well, Sharon, good luck with the tour.

I know you're going to Birmingham as well, which is a very important city for you. And thank you so much for coming in. You're going to have to come back. I would love to. I would really love to. Excellent. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you too. 84844 is the number to text. And a lot of you getting in touch saying, lovely to hear Sharon. When I was a young news presenter in 1981, I hosted Aussie for Tea while he waited for his studio call he was quiet, gentle, witty

and an absolute delight to spend time with please wish them both well and that's from Merrin and a lot of you getting in touch with things that you've done to empower yourself. Many years ago I worked for a boss who never used my name he called me sweetheart instead. One day I said if you call me that one more time I shall

call you my lover no matter the circumstances he never did it again well done sue and uh marlene says i once interviewed on a uh intervened on a bus when a group of teenage boys were taunting an old man i knew i could not take them on so i just went and sat quietly by him and shielded him from the horrible things they were saying to him i felt compelled to. 84844 is the number to text. Keep your messages coming in about anything you're listening to on the programme today. Now, new data from the Royal College of Nursing today is warning of a growing mental health crisis amongst nursing staff. Calls to its membership support line have shown a substantial increase

in the number of nursing staff seeking help for having suicidal thoughts. With two months left of the 2020 of 2023 to report the number of members self declaring that they're experiencing these mental health concerns has increased from 113 cases in the whole of 2022 to 176 cases. Well, I'm joined by in the studio by Stephen Jones, the lead for mental health and interim head of nursing practice at the RCN, to unpick what the nursing union believe lies behind this increase. But first, let's hear from Hannah, a nurse currently working in palliative care. She gave her response to the RCN's findings. I think for myself, you know, as somebody who has a history of serious mental illness and tried to take my own life in 2009,

so was nearly part of the statistics of a nurse taking their own life. I feel sad that this is what we're hearing, that there is an increased number. There's another part of me that's also thinking, is it because nurses feel like they can say to the Royal College of Nursing that they are having these thoughts as well? And certainly when I look back to when I was sectioned under the Mental Health Act in 2007, certainly there wasn't any talk about nurses who were having suicidal thoughts, nurses who were taking their own life. It was not something that I was hearing at that time. And I remember feeling really alone that I was this nurse that was this real failure who was struggling. So I don't know whether there's also this hopeful thing that people are beginning to feel that at the Royal College of Nursing, they feel they're able to stay. But I think on the wider aspect, I still don't think it is easy to stay and I've made the decision to

be really open which I have been since about 2016 that I am a nurse who tried to take my own life and that's come with all sorts of responses and I think there still is a stigma out there in being able to talk about it and I think there's a self-stigma as well because you think I'm the person that cares and it's really hard as nurses to a self-stigma as well, because you think I'm the person that cares and it's really hard as nurses to say, actually, I need a bit of care because actually I'm human and I have struggles and I have difficulties. And I think that we also need to be careful as well about why there is this increase, because every single case will be unique and different to that particular nurse. And I think we need to understand why this is happening, I think,

and what's happening for different people. Because certainly people would often ask me if it was the nursing. And sadly for me, it was actually my childhood that had caused my difficulties. And that meant that I needed to look after that side of myself before I could then return to nursing. But I think what we're also realising as well is that certainly I can see a difference. So I had to step out of nursing in 2007. It took quite a long time for my treatment, but I was able to return to nursing in 2020, which was an interesting time to return because it was the pandemic. But in returning, I did see a difference between how many nurses were then looking after how many patients and it had increased.

And I think there is this, what we're now calling and the Royal College of Nursing is now calling this moral distress, whereas nurses were feeling that we're now calling and the Royal College of Nursing is now calling this moral distress. Whereas nurses, we're feeling that we're not able to give the care that we would like to give patients. And that I think is causing nurses as well to feel that kind of pain really of not being to give what they can give to your patients. I certainly know where I work, the hospice that I work in, so I'm a palliative care nurse now that I often do night shifts and I will often look after a patient who's distressed at night and you know when a patient's distressed you want to sort of sit with that patient and so I will sit with that patient and I've got my hand on their hand so that they know I'm there and then my other

hand is writing my notes and then in my pocket is the phone for the community because we take the phone overnight for the community patient and that's what you're then trying to do is is manage all these things because you know that actually at that moment in that time is actually how important it is to sit with that patient and I think it's those sort of things that can be hard as more and more pressure is put onto nurses. Yeah, but not everyone's Marita. So I'm joined now by Stephen from the Royal College of Nursing. Now, Stephen, is there more and more pressure being put onto nurses? Let's get into this. What's going on?

Thank you. So just to give a bit of context before we start. So in May of this year, members voted to mandate the OCN to lobby the government for the implementation of an integrated suicide prevention programme for the nursing workforce across the UK. So we already know that female nurses are 23% more at risk of suicide compared to the general population. And that was really something that underpinned the need to mandate the college to respond. So with regards to what's causing it, it's like Hannah mentioned, every case is individual. I think when we talk about suicide and even suicidal thoughts, which is what we're talking about with our data, is we need to be very sensitive and understand it can be complex. There are different reasons, not all work-. There are home related issues as well.

But we do know that persistent understaffing, the intolerable pressures that the workforce is facing, that financial insecurity at home as well, are contributing factors we know have started to emerge or have been emerging for some time with other pieces of work that have been done. So for us with this data, for one, it came about as part of the programme of work that we've been doing in response to that item that was shared at Congress. And as I say, we were mandated to move forward. And for us, we just wanted to really have a look to see what's happening amongst our workforce, what's happening amongst our members, what are they telling us? And when we looked to see the prevalence or at least the number of times suicide came up, it was really concerning to see that there was a clear trend and an increase. And another statistic, so if we look at October two years ago, we had roughly one person a week sharing suicidal ideation with us.

Two years later, last October, it's almost one a day. So there is a change and there's a serious issue we need to respond to. So I think with that issue of complexity, for us, it's really important we know what's going on, we understand where the issues are for our members. So as I said... So what is going on? So I don't want to speculate now, other than we know there are the broad issues that I've already mentioned. But for us, we're commissioning or have started to commission research to deep dive into that data, to really unpick the context to know are there particular groups

who are presenting more and expressing these issues. We do want to look at the impact on marginalised groups as well, but also other key demographics. There's age, there's gender, which we know is an issue, but it's really important to pull out to find out what's happening how easy is it for nurses to find support it varies um there is support available and i think listening to hannah's talk and hannah's absolutely brilliant extremely inspirational and keeps us all in check as well at the ocn to make sure that we focus on that lived experience which is fantastic um but with regards to to

support there is always support there's always support available um and i think that message of hope needs to be front and center suicide is preventable that's a key message but also you're never alone there's always as i say that help available um for the ocn members we have a member support service where you have counselling as part of that. There's financial support, access to hardship grants. So there's a well-rounded package of support that can be offered. But also for non-OCN members, again, there's access to grants. OCN Foundation offer grants, the Cavell Trust offer grants as well. So with regards to the actual support for intervention,

it varies. It is a bit of a postcode lottery. We do know that. We have seen the closure of the hubs that were the well-being hubs that were set up during the pandemic. During the pandemic, yeah. And how many are still, and they've been closing? They have been closing.

I'm not sure. I think we mentioned the exact number. There were 42 and there's quite a few have closed. So what needs to happen to ease this situation? How much of it comes down to needing to employ more nurses? Fundamentally, that's a core issue. So Hannah mentioned this issue of moral distress. And what we found in the pandemic is when language is so important, we work in a diverse workforce as well.

And sometimes that pathologizing language, that diagnostic terminology doesn't always sit well with people, particularly when you're constantly under pressure that actually by making it about an individual, you sometimes remove that context. So the whole idea of moral distress emerged, as I say, through the pandemic, where there was a pushback to say, I don't want to be diagnosed with a mental illness or a mental health problem. Actually, it's the workplace that's the problem. So this issue of moral distress is fundamentally where nurses know the right thing to do, ethically and morally, but are constrained from doing that. So it's providing the best care possible, it's being able to offer the holistic needs. So there's a lot of moral and ethical issues that can occur. So although we can look at that external offer and that external offer of counselling, therapy, that formal support needs to be there. There's still a lot more to do with regards to organisational culture, team-level culture.

Easing the pressure of the job. Exactly, exactly. So yes, without a doubt, we need more nurses. There is a workforce plan that's now available that really needs to be properly funded and pushed forward. While also being aware of the change in demand, demand has increased across the board and we need to be able to react to that. So although government's committed to the workforce plan now, it still needs to be reviewed and updated as the years move forward. Is it only nurses experiencing this? What do we know about other health care professionals no it's it's beyond nurses i think generally the the two highest groups um that have been identified are nurses and

doctors so doctors to face face the same issue but with regards to the pressures across the board it affects everybody within the health service um and as well it's affecting a lot of people in general population you know this and and although as i say we're talking about suicidal thoughts here we're talking about that suicidal ideation which is another word for it um we know suicide attempted suicide or completed suicide has a huge impact on on many many people around around the person so it's not just about the individual um who's been in that situation and and has sadly gone through that um but actually all those left behind all those loved ones so it's a massive societal population health um issue it can't be just pigeonholed in a mental health thing it's

for all of us to understand and respond to and and so back to what's happening with nurses what will the next steps be now that you've seen this indicator and the calls are coming in and there is a rise? What are the next steps? Yes, as I said, we've commissioned research to deep dive into our data so that we can really pull out context and know what the real issues are, what our members are saying are the causes, but also see what's worked, what's helped. Are people wanting to access the counselling side of things? Are they looking for other forms of support? Part of what we do with our programme is engage with key stakeholders. We had recently a summit with all the strategic leads of the four nations of the UK to come together and there is some excellent work going on. There is real passion and strong policy documents.

We've endorsed NHS England's suicide prevention toolkit, which gives really clear aims and advice on how organisations can move things forward. But it's the implementation that's important. So we can have all these documents, all these policies,

but it has to reach the ground. Absolutely. Stephen Jones, thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. That's Stephen, who's the lead for mental health and interim head of nursing practice at the Royal College of Nursing. And we've had a statement from an NHS spokesperson

who said nurses remain a vital and extremely valued part of the NHS workforce supporting staff well-being is central to the NHS long-term workforce plan and 2.3 million pounds has been made available to maintain support for staff through mental health hubs alongside a wider set of health and well-being interventions such as a range of counselling and therapy talking therapy options and a department of health and social care spokesperson said we're hugely grateful to nhs staff for their invaluable work and their health and well-being is paramount that's why all nhs staff including nurses can access physical and mental health support and advice including targeted psychological support and treatment mental health support and advice including targeted psychological

support and treatment mental health and well-being hubs also provide nhs colleagues quick access to assessment and local mental health services where needed um once again steven thank you very much now dr shani danda is a disability inclusion and accessibility specialist, social entrepreneur and broadcaster. This month, she was named the UK's most influential disabled person by the Shaw Trust as part of the Disability Power 100, nominated by the public and judged by an independent panel. The first woman of colour to get the honour. Not bad for a Brumelass who had over 100 job applications turned down at just 16. Shani is also an ambassador for disability charity scope

with a member of a regional panel advising the disability unit of the cabinet office Wednesday's autumn statement was controversial in its announcements affecting sick and disabled people with the government claiming their changes would support more people in work and campaigners saying they could make the situation worse we're going to talk about that we're going to talk about a lot of things but first of all Shani welcome to Woman's Hour congratulations thank you how did it to be here how did it think about that 16 year old who had 100 job applications turned down and now here you are. Yeah, it's been a wild ride. Would never have imagined the journey that I've been on.

But it's a huge title and it comes with huge responsibility. But I'm really chuffed for the recognition. We are going to talk about you because it's really important that people hear your story and know exactly who you are. But let's start with the autumn statement because it has been announced, series of announcements made by the Chancellor, including pensions going up by 8.5%. Now the dust has settled,

what do you think it means for disabled people and disabled women in particular? I think it's a really counterproductive approach. We also have to remember that prior 2020, remote and hybrid work was the exclusion, not the rule. And I think what's been most frustrating is, you know, I actually left a workplace because of the lack of ability to make the adjustments that I needed, which was flexibility in work. And, you know, employees and government were like no you know you can't work remotely this is all pre-pandemic because if we do it for you disabled person then we've got to do it for

everybody else or oh what about data protection for example and then as soon as lockdown came like that it happened overnight and I think what I learned from that was change can happen in society and very quickly, but it only happens when it suits the majority. And now that same message is being given to some disabled people that genuinely because of their condition or impairment cannot work. And they're being sanctioned to go and find jobs that just do not exist. So it's very counterproductive and a really harmful rhetoric. And we're going to talk about your story and your lived experience, but just to say we have had a statement from a spokesperson from the Department of Work and Pensions who said,

we're committed to supporting disabled women through the benefits system. Our chance to work guarantee will give the most vulnerable the opportunity to try to work without fear of losing benefits. This is part of this government's landmark welfare reform, which include our £2.5 billion plan to help thousands of people with disabilities and health conditions who can work, find jobs and fulfil their potential. Let's go back to what we started with when you were 16. You applied for 100 jobs and what happened?

I didn't hear back from any of the applications that I made and I had one sentence in my covering letter. It said, I've got a condition but it doesn't affect my ability to do this role. And I now look back on that time and I can't believe how naive I was. I was just not prepared for the amount of stigma that exists in society, just generally about disabled people, but also as valuable members of the workplace. Now, I have a very visible condition.

I have a short stature. And when people say to me, well, why did you even put it on your covering letter in the first place? I was doing it to help my prospective employer feel less awkward because there is huge awkwardness about disability and I see people's very visceral response when they first meet me. People sometimes don't really know what to do or perhaps will avoid a conversation with me. So I was doing it thinking, oh, this will be great. You know, I'm being really proactive, really proud of my identity, not knowing it was completely going against me.

So, you know, after feeling really deflated after over 100 job applications, I thought, you know, I can work. I want to work and I want to contribute to society. Why aren't I getting an opportunity? So I took that one sentence off and I got offered an interview and I got a job straight away. And honestly, to this day, I think it's been one of the most harsh life lessons that I've had to learn. But that then, in turn, made me realize that I could not go throughout life like this. And I thought, oh, how can I take control of the situation? And that was by creating my own opportunities

because we we're going to talk and because that and that you know facing that level of discrimination having that harsh life lesson at such a young age and it built you and it made you make a decision about how you wanted to go forwards but that discrimination that does we know exists within society actually for you exists in many levels because like me you come from a Punjabi family so for you the discrimination starts within your own culture right? Absolutely and that's because disability faces an even further sense of stigma in South Asian communities so I've often played the role of an educator not only between my parents my family my local community and but I did have a really unique upbringing you know I went to a special needs primary school and then

on the weekends as a family we'd be coming down to London to protest for Sikh rights like that's such a unique perspective like in the week I was institutionalized and then on the weekend you know I was fighting for other people's rights and my community's rights. And drawing on the principles of Sikhism, I think my parents have been the best example. They've always sort of said, you know, if you can help others, do that. If you can be a voice for others, do that. But I had to do that for me first and I had to find my own voice. And I guess I'm still on a journey of do that but I had to do that for me first and I had to find my own voice and I guess I'm

still on a journey of doing that it's not it's not by no way sort of a finished product and you are doing it you're on a journey to find your voice standing up for what you believe in and advocating for others and you're an activist but what was the experience like for your mum having you as a as a baby yeah so I'm a middle child uh the second daughter um and my mum had some really awful treatment and behavior so when I was born um there was no nothing picked up in the scan so you know it was it was a shock to everyone that was born with with a rare genetic condition but I didn't get my diagnosis straight away it came at the age of two and my mum faced comments such as you know not

only have you had another girl but she's disabled and that that hurt me so much when I heard it not too long ago actually and I just couldn't I couldn't understand why in that moment somebody would feel that that was an appropriate thing to say I can't imagine what my parents themselves must have been feeling and going through especially not even knowing the name of my condition at that point uh so yeah it's it's it's been tough but you know my mum's been an amazing source of strength for me. And she's never treated me any differently from my siblings. And I think if she had, she would have been setting me up to fail. Because life's hard, right? It's hard for everybody. But it's even harder when you live in a world that isn't designed for you.

And you look very different as well. You know, my reality is that there are more clothes designed for dogs than me. There's nowhere I can go to buy clothes for my body type because I have a short set chair. But, you know, she is an amazing source of strength. And she just kind of helped me figure out that, yeah, you might not be able to do things in the average way, but you'll always find a way around it. And that's just what I've applied to everything in life. So your strength comes from your mum. What's mum's name? We need to name check mum.

My mum's name's Val but her home name is Baby. I love that. Of course she's called Baby. Brilliant, perfect nickname. How do you feel about your success now? Do you feel secure in it? Because you've moved to London living your life um you know getting all these accolades you're Dr Shani Dunder now how how do you feel about it all none of this was ever planned um I've done everything I've done really out of necessity and still continue to do so um and everything I'm doing is to create a space and change that I wish existed for me when I was growing up. You know, it's led me to create spaces like the Asian Women Festival, the Asian Disability Network. And I have, you know, I have the privilege of really working with loads of the world's biggest brands to really help them on their journey of disability inclusion but it's all happened really organically so a lot of the time I am

sitting there thinking is this my life is this me is that the same girl that went to that special needs primary school and everybody around her had the lowest expectations but I think you know I've always been really determined and I at 16 when that employment experience happened I kind of made a promise with myself because it was a really pivotal age for me my health had finally stabilized so it's like my first glimpse of freedom and just being able to live and my body somewhat cooperate with me and I just made a promise that I never wanted to live with regrets and I wanted to make every day count and I feel really happy to say that I've done that and I'm just just here to to make life a bit less difficult for other over excluded people as well good for over excluded people um Dr Shani Danda thank you so much for coming to women's hour to speak to me

more power to you thank you keep going now women composers working in the film tv and gaming industries are rare this month the report female professionals in european film production 2023 revealed only 10 of european film composers are women. In 2019, research from Counting the Music Industry found that only 14% of TV and film composers signed to UK music publishing companies are women. And this year's Game Sound Con Audio Industry Survey, women game composers and sound engineers made up a whopping 15% of the industry. So where are all the women and why aren't they breaking through this week the f list a website with a searchable source of women composers has appointed a new president the iva novella winning composer producer hannah peele and another talent the composer bishi has released her latest ep both hannah and bishi join me now to discuss this welcome both of you um congratulations hannah big job thank you tell us what Just to remind us what the F-list is, what's the purpose?

It's a community now with over 6,000 musicians, songwriters, composers. It's a source of information for commissioners and labels and all female, I might add uh but it's not just that they do a lot of research you put on events it's an incredible tool for making awareness um of our amazing uk talent and i've got one of the well i've got two of you you're on zoom i have to say look with the beautiful music instruments around you where are you by the way the way? I'm in Northern Ireland. Well, one of the UK talents is sitting in front of me, Bishy. So many stark facts and figures. We're going to get into those. But I came to see the launch of your EP this week, which was magnificent. It's your first composing gig. Yeah, this is my first soundtrack. And it's for a VR video game

called Maya, which sounds incredible. I can't wait to experience it. It's for a VR video game called Maya, which sounds incredible. I can't wait to experience it. It's about a menstruating superhero. I think we should hear some of it. So we've got the electronic bit there, but what I need to say is there's Rebecca who plays violin and you on your sitar and you sing over it as well.

It's incredible. Tell us how you went about making it. Well, when you're working in vr everything has to be uh determined that they're very strict um there aren't many edits so i would work with rough kind of vr sort of pre-vr animated rushes and i sit in my studio i've got my sitar my tan pura analog keyboards my, a bunch of soft synths. And I also do a lot of vocal layering. So I tend to make choirs out of my voice. And it's really visceral. As soon as I see the rushes, as soon as I see moving picture, I hear music in my head, I know exactly what to write.

And it's it is incredible. The whole experience was just magic. And you've been around for a long time doing extraordinary things, performing and making music. Why do you think it's taken this long for you to get your first job doing the soundtrack? Yeah, well, the filmmakers, Pallami Basu, who is a Bengali artist and human rights activist and co-directed with CJ Clark. And I think it's taken, well, I mean, my first gigs have been South Asian people who have commissioned me. I'm currently working on a Channel 4 documentary series, a South Asian film director.

Yeah, I think it's taken a long time for people to start to embrace inclusion and diversity in the music composition production and in the all-round arts um it's you know since 2020 it's become an absolute must since the second what is arguably the second human rights sort of movement you know in terms of inclusion and diversity and people understanding that it not only impacts people culturally, but it's going to impact them economically and companies are going to be better off from having composers, artists, you know, an employment force from a much wider perspective. Hannah, I'm going to bring you in here because as well as being a composer, you're a presenter on Radio 3. Earlier this year, you won an Ivor Novello Award for Best Television Soundtrack.

Well done you. Congratulations. You're just the second woman to have achieved this in 67 years. Isn't that insane? It's so mental. And solo, yes. Solo, yes. And there's been lots of nominations and duos that have won with a female composer within that. But yeah, solo artist, which is just insane. I couldn't believe it when Vic, who runs the F list, actually told me only a couple of weeks ago.

I was like, wow, that's just madness. So a lot of work to do. And I want to talk to you a bit more about this in a minute, but I think we should hear some of your music as well. This is a creation that has been recognised. This was recognised. It was Ward 300 from the Midwich Cuckoos. Let's have a listen. Love it, Hannah.

Tell us about that. What is it? What were we listening to? We've gone for the darkest of the dark. Yeah, I specifically requested it for a Friday morning. Go on. the creepiness um and the you know it's a beautiful sunny day here so it just feels even more surreal but you know i guess like the midwich cuckoos was kind of approached as a sunlit horror so it fits quite quite well but it was um for a Sky TV series based on the original John Wyndham novel. And it came out last year or the year before, actually, now.

So it feels time is moving fast. But, yeah, the soundtrack itself was analogue synths and sounds and a lot of emphasis on production rather than, you know, string scoring and things like that um i'm gonna i think we should name check some other women because we are talking about women and so few women but there are some women out there as well as the two of you doing some incredible work so i'm just going to name check a few obviously delia darbyshire did the theme for doctor who there's nanita dasai uh debbie wiseman who's been on woman's hour she did the soundtrack to wall fall there's jessica curry um so there are women out there, but the percentages that I gave at the top,

they're not great, are they? Hannah, why are there so few women doing what you do? Where are they all? I don't know. Do you know, it's one of those things that I've wanted to do for a very, very long time. Like what Bishi was saying, when I graduated, I tried to do for a very very long time like what Bishi was saying you know when

I graduated I tried to get into a master's degree and the kind of the course that you would have took back then was you would have gone to do done a degree at a college and then you would have maybe been a composer assistant there wasn't this kind of notion at the moment where you develop yourself as an artist and then a lot of the production companies at the moment really want artists and their individual sounds so it's it's only in the last four or five years that i've been able to do it and that my opportunity came from a female director called jeannie finley who's incredible documentary maker and um and like what bishi was saying it was more like the female directors and producers were hiring me because there was a change in the industry.

But why is I think there was just a lack of awareness, a lack of opportunity. It's an industry that used before, their friends, and also people that they thought could do it fast and trust. You know, it's a lot of money on the line with productions and things these days, especially. Well, what does pay and how much time are you asked to put in? I mean, like, yeah, I mean, like you could work for games, you can work years on a soundtrack, but for film, it could be from a couple of weeks to maybe four or five months, maybe longer. But TV, I would say, from initial conception until the end result, six to eight months, usually, if you're lucky.

But that delivery time is very short. You know, you're delivering episodes every kind of two weeks a push and that's writing editing mixing everything so it is it is fast work and it's long long hours it's not uh yeah some people it's just not suitable for everybody of course yeah but I mean like absolutely echoing Hannah I mean I mean, I'm a newbie in this area and I'm absolutely loving it and I love the process, but it is really fast and really intense work. And you're like, oh yeah, my schedule's evened out a bit, which means I can stop at 6pm, not at 10pm, you know. How typical. I mean, Bishi's route into it, you know,

actually let me ask both of you because we are running out of time and it's really important, I think, because there will be brilliant musicians listening to this who would love to compose something. What advice would you give them? Keep releasing. That was my key.

And people mock me for that. Keep making music, keep releasing. And I think it's similar for you, Hannah, isn't it? Yeah, it's absolutely essential to have your sound and your unique approach to music because that is what people are wanting to buy these days and it makes a difference. The soundtracks are original and unique.

But yeah, this is part of a much larger conversation of what younger musicians and aspiring film composers could do. But that was my route as well well keep doing what you're doing and we can't wait to hear more work from you and keep inspiring the next generation I just want to end the program with some of the messages because we've had so many people get in touch Jenny's been in touch to say and Shani is still in the studio she says I loved hearing Shani speak my son is autistic and until I had him I never knew how much the world is not built for people with disabilities we need to elevate and amplify the voices of people like Shani speak, my son is autistic. And until I had him, I never knew how much the world is not built for people with disabilities.

We need to elevate and amplify the voices of people like Shani, here, here, who speak from lived experience, because in 2023, there should be no excuse for not meeting the needs of huge numbers of people. And also, we did have a very frank discussion about mental health in nursing. I must let you know that there are support links on our website if you do need them please go to our website that's it from me join me tomorrow thank you to all my guests I'll be back tomorrow

with weekend weekend's woman's hour. That's all for today's woman's Hour. Join us again next time. cats dogs dentists pockets or the lack of anything really and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help but also hopefully entertain join us why don't you search up Now You're Asking on BBC Sounds

tanking you I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.