Woman's Hour - Sharon Stone, Gillian Keegan MP, Fertility & Race

Episode Date: April 1, 2021

It’s nearly thirty years since Sharon Stone was in the film Basic Instinct, with the famous uncrossing-of-legs scene. She really wanted the role but only got it after twelve other actresses turned it down. After Basic Instinct more films followed including Casino alongside Robert De Niro. In 2001, after adopting her first child, she suffered a stroke and almost died. She’s now written her autobiography called The Beauty of Living Twice. She gave Woman's Hour her only UK broadcast interview.On the morning that a new helpline has been launched for potential victims of school sexual abuse we speak to Gillian Keegan MP who's from the Department for Education.We're talking about shop changing rooms with retail expert Catherine Shuttleworth. When lock-down lifts will you be using them, or sticking with ordering online and trying things on at home?People from ethnic minorities who have fertility treatment are less likely to be successful. That's according to the Human Fertility and Embryology Authority. Their data says Black patients having the lowest chances of successful treatment whilst only 4% of egg donors were Asian. We find out more with Sally Cheshire, outgoing Chair of the HFEA and Dr Karen Joash, Consultant Obstetrician and Gynaecologist at Imperial College Healthcare Trust and spokesperson for Race Equality at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Our first guest today is the one and only Sharon Stone, who says she's incapable of lying, which has ended up with her being accused of being a difficult woman. Well, we don't shy away from that sort of straight talking here on Woman's Hour. In fact, we positively sprint towards it. That interview next. But let me get your straight view

I know I can always rely on you for this on something else changing rooms love them or loathe them I ask because they're back or about to be the government has caved to demands from shops and will allow them to reopen for the first time in a year when clothes shops resume trading on April the 12th

but will you be using them? I personally say amen I can't buy anything without trying it on. And I can't be doing with all the postage around buying it online. But maybe I'm in a minority. How about you? Do you feel they're safe? We'll tell you the rules around it with regards to COVID. Your views, please, on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or get in touch on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. Today we're also going to be looking into the racial inequality in the fertility world specifically with regards to IVF and we're going to be joined by a minister

from the Department for Education as that new helpline you were hearing about in the bulletins for victims of sexual abuse in schools opens this morning. It opened just over an hour ago, so we'll hear about that and the plans for that. But it is nearly 30 years since Sharon Stone played alleged serial killer Catherine Trammell in Basic Instinct alongside Michael Douglas. It was a role she craved but only managed to obtain after 12 other actresses turned it down. A huge box office hit,

and the infamous uncrossing and crossing of the legs scene in the interrogation room still remains one of the most controversial and talked about moments in film history. More movies followed including an Oscar nomination for Casino alongside Robert De Niro and at the height of her career in 2001 after adopting her first child Sharon Stone suffered a stroke and almost died. She's now written her autobiography, The Beauty of Living Twice. And in her only UK broadcast interview, I started by asking her, what was her percentage chance of survival? It was probably one because the surgery that I had was brand new. Now it's probably five to 10. I mean,

your percentages are much better now because that was 20 years ago. But when I had it, I had to wait for the surgeon. I had to wait a day because there was a guy who could perform it hypothetically and he would come the next day after I was already bleeding into my brain at that point for three or four days. So it was very new technique that was happening and was available to me, maybe. Now, this is a more tried and true thing. You talk about how, you know, in your book, you go from the beginning of your life, you know, talking about these two existences, and you describe your upbringing as kitchen sink Irish. And you're very honest as well about your relationship with your mom. And I wondered if you

could talk to us about that, because you sort of explain that the young age she was when she started having children, you realized that she was jealous of your childhood. My mother didn't have a childhood. My mother had abuse. And as a result of that abuse, she was given away to another family. She was given away to be a housekeeper and to run all the errands, to buy the groceries, to clean the floors, to do the dishes, to change the beds, and then to walk two miles to school.

And she saved the nickel and the dime that they occasionally gave her. And I said to her, you know, mom, you were a slave. And she says, I was not. And I said, they didn't pay you. And she said, how do you think I bought my coat? She doesn't grasp that someone for whom that she worked as a child laborer should have bought her a coat. She has not ever been loved as a child in any way at all. So she doesn't really understand what love is. She doesn't know how to accept any kind of tenderness and is easier alone.

And I myself spend a lot of time alone. I understand that because I didn't get hugs. Is it right that she would leave feminist books around the home? Yeah, we did for each other. Tell me about that. Well, because I was an advanced student and because she was a young mom, she and I and she and my brother were quite close in age, of course. And so that was the time when magazines like Cosmopolitan and these woman magazines were coming out. And Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug and all of these women were becoming quite strong voices during my high school days. So we would leave these

magazines on the top of the refrigerator. This was the kind of secret passing place of where the books and magazines would go. And we started to educate each other about all the things that one was never allowed to say, because my mother knew absolutely nothing. She wasn't the kind of woman that could talk to you about when you were going to have your period. It was, you know, a country life with parents who had no parental skills, really, who were trying to figure it out as children, parenting. You talk very candidly about how, you know, some people see you as very strong, a difficult woman, all of those sorts of things. And yet that has upset you at times, as it can do, you know, the idea that you are those things. But your grit, you know, you're talking about your background here, and a lot of people will

be learning about it from your book for the first time, perhaps, you know, that plays into that, doesn't it? Well, I think what it really is, is that I don't have the capacity to lie. And I think that people find that quite off-putting. I don't know if that's really grit or just a compulsion. And I think people find that kind of shocking and unsettling. And when I tell the truth, that can seem quite offensive or the favorite Hollywood word difficult. I saw on your Instagram, you shared a great quote, never pick a fight with a woman older than 30. They're full of rage and sick of it's hilarious but there is quite a bit of truth in that yeah you do write about this in the book but it is extraordinary just reading about the story behind that extremely famous scene

in Basic Instinct because I would have thought naively that you would have known that that was how that scene was going to be. But reading the story about, I mean, you tell our listeners how you actually found out that scene was going to be and then your own nauseum talking about something that happened 100 years ago, but I do feel that in business, we're often put in positions that we didn't ever see ourselves being put in. And there are often crisis moments where we have to reconsider, oh my God, I'm in this position. Now what am I I going to do we're kind of between a rock and a hard place and we have to pick rock or hard place and you picked it I mean that's that's what's quite you know empowering about all of that that's why I brought it up because I think even if as it as it were I'm not going to say the whole story and I know there's much more to say but the fact that you didn't know it was going to be shot necessarily like that and then you go and

you think about it and you come out at that place because the film is you'd gone to so much of your own limits with it. I thought I thought that was so interesting. The thing is, as women or as underlings in any business proposition, we often get taken advantage of. I think women are particularly pressured at work to prove that you can do things and not let your feminine emotion get in the middle of it. And you're often backed into a corner and tried to be made emotional so that you can be dismissed as unable to make a decision in the middle of pressure so that it can be proved that as a woman, you can't function in an emotional chaotic moment. You talk about being unable not to be honest. You have to be honest. That's how you are.

But with regards to the Me Too movement, now we're a couple of years on from that. Do you actually think, because the other thing you talk about is being the only woman on set. You know, men were doing your hair, men were doing your makeup. Do you think it has got any better? Yes, because legally there are just things that cannot be explained away anymore. You just can't say, why can't she have a female dresser? Why does a man have to be putting the microphone on her thigh or between her breasts? I mean, they're starting to get some of the simple questions answered. But of course,

some of the normal, just fun and silliness has been tamped down and dampened. And I think, you know, we're going to have to re-find to balance because it is a business where we all need to be friends and family. And we're a little bit stiff right now because everybody's scared of making a mistake or saying something that someone will be offended by because there's just so much, oh, he touched my arm or, oh, he said I was pretty Or, you know, there's so much now that I personally think is a little too far. You know, people are just have gone completely berserk with what they're saying is offensive to them. The things that you were experiencing, you know, people telling you to sleep with a co-star. If somebody was viewed as, I can't say the word because we're on air but you know screwable

let's call it that instead you know that was that was kind of part and parcel of your your acting career and and do you feel the need to name and shame now because of course that's a whole other thing people are just naming each other on social media and talk and accusing people? Well, I should say to start with, I never felt unable to say no. I never felt unable to explain myself and say, you know, I'm too stupid to be able to do my part and do that too. Or I'm incapable of doing both. I felt more offended by people who literally would go to my representatives and suggest I resign from my job if I didn't want to sleep with them.

That has reached a level where the person should be removed. I find that being called into these meetings where I have to listen to the nonsense for an hour, studio film time, that could be 20 grand that they've just burned having me sit in their office. You know, the studio should be letting these people go. They're, you know, losing money left and right

over this malarkey. I feel if they simply ask me, do I want to have sex with them or my co-star? And I say no, and they go, OK, thank you and leave. You know, nobody's bothering me on set. I don't know that that's a fireable offense because ask and answered. Are you saying that still happens? Yes, but I am also saying that I am not a person who feels like,

is that a fireable offense? Because I don't feel like when someone asks me a question, I have to crumble. I understand that now when someone asks someone if they want to have sex, some people have so much trauma that they feel like the person needs to be fired. This is not something I ever understood before, but I understand now that this has become a fireable offense at work. I get that, but it's been happening to me for 40 years. So harassment is a different story than a question. I think when I'm harassed, they should be fired or assault me, they should be fired.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that's a distinction people could relate to. They would probably also say that, as you were saying, the asking the question is the problem. But I was just going to ask, do you think we've got better as a society in dealing with quote unquote, difficult women, i.e. women who speak truthfully and say it how it is. I'm thinking in particular, there was an interview, of course, which a lot of people have watched around the world with Oprah Winfrey and Meghan Markle recently. I don't know what you made of that, but that has been sort of held up as a bit of a barometer about a woman again talking. I think that they're trying to stay alive. I think the royal family removed their

security and said that their kid wouldn't have a title. I think that they put them in a dangerous position and they told the world they were in a dangerous position. And I think that that's fair. And on the sort of point of a woman speaking out or, you know, coming out of line in any way, do you think we've got better with that? Because I wonder if you or, you know, coming out of line in any way. Do you think we've got better with that? Because I wonder if you feel, you know, a young, a younger Sharon Stone coming up now, being the way that you were, would be treated differently or the same? I'm still an outsider. You know, I'm an Irish girl from Pennsylvania, not a girl of Hollywood royalty. And you don't get to be inside just like that. There's still a class

system in every business and you have to earn your way in unless you are Hollywood royalty. And I wasn't. Well, to a lot of us, you are. And can I just say, as someone who also has endometriosis and has fought fertility battles, I wanted to extend kind of endometriosis warrior sister vibes to you on that front. That was really a brutal experience for me. And it turned out that I also have what's called the rheumatoid factor, which was why my body was rejecting the fetuses. And we didn't know that till long after I had all of these fifth and a half month miscarriages and the postpartum. It's a devastating experience. And I have to say that I was really

grateful to Chrissy Teigen for allowing us to share publicly with her what she went through, because so many of us have gone through these kind of losses on her own, on our own. You know, when I lost my last baby, and then went back to the hospital and had 36 hours of labor on my own to, of course, birth nothing. And the nurses that had been in the hospital with me two days before when they removed the last baby came in and sat with me on their day off. I really felt such a strong sense of sisterhood and understanding because I would have been alone. And that's such an alone feeling anyway. I was so grateful to Vanessa Kirby for making Pieces of a Woman. And I think we're finally reaching a point in our global sisterhood where we speak to the issues of loss and heartache and rape and brutalization and all of the things that happen to us and to our bodies and that our minds and heart have to go through. And we're not carrying the water us. We're letting it out.

This is that time that everyone feared would come and we would be who we really are meant to be, which is the great sisterhood. And I really, truly, genuinely believe now is the time. Sharon Stone, her book is called The Beauty of Living Twice. And she referred there to Vanessa Kirby's film for which she's been nominated for an Oscar, Pieces of a Woman. We actually interviewed, I interviewed Vanessa a few days ago. And if you missed that, do catch up on BBC Sounds. Again, a very honest conversation that I'm sure already a lot of you

have got something from and been in touch with us and more of you can find that on BBC Sounds. Now, all week we have been discussing the reports of sexism and assault, talking of honesty in girls coming forward, and this has been happening in schools in this country. Following the outpouring of stories on the website Everyone Welcome by young girls talking about issues within their school, misogyny, harassment, and at the other end of it, accusations of rape. A helpline and an immediate review into sexual abuse in schools

have been set up by the government in response to the more than 11,000 allegations from students. Ofsted, the inspectorate, will look at safeguarding policies in both state and independent schools. The helpline, which is going to be run and is being run by the NSPCC to support potential victims and provide advice to children and adults, went live at nine o'clock this morning. I'll give you the details of that at the end of our discussion. But now I'm joined by Gillian Keegan, Conservative MP for Chichester, Minister for Apprenticeship and Skills at the Department for Education. Good morning. Hi Emma. Thank you for joining us. This helpline being run by the NSPCC, what support will it offer? Well, I think that the NSPCC have got a lot of expertise in this area,

particularly how to talk to younger children in age appropriate ways, etc. So that's why they're the ideal place, really, to set up this helpline. Support will be in terms of emotional support, but also support in terms of next steps if people need signposting to be able to take action further, be able to help them with sharing their story, etc. So whatever help they need is the honest answer to the question. But the next steps are very clear. You should be able to go to

your school and report it. And girls have been doing that and it's been ignored. I think that's one of the distressing things, actually. I mean, obviously, there's 11,500 reports. I haven't read all of them, but there are some of them that, you know, where people have said they don't feel comfortable going to talk to their school. Or, as you say, people have or have tried to have that conversation and have been kind of put off, which clearly is inappropriate. So, which is also why the review is important as well. I mean, the vast majority of schools and colleges take this very seriously, but we do need to check it's working in practice. And some of those reports, those allegations, say that it's not in some cases.

But what on earth has Ofsted been doing? And what have you been doing, the Conservatives? You've been in power for 10 years. Well, Ofsted do, you know, they do do safeguarding checks. And, you know, we have updated recently, actually, the Keeping Children Safe in Education guidelines. So they have been recently updated actually, the keeping children safe in education guidelines. So they have been recently updated. We've also actually changed the whole curriculum. That's no comfort for the 11,000 people who've got in touch with their allegations, is it?

Well, I mean, obviously, some of them, I mean, in terms of those allegations, you know, there's men, women, children, girls, boys, older people. They've happened in schools. They've happened elsewhere. So that is quite a broad range in terms of what's on the website. But clearly, children should be able to feel comfortable to talk to, obviously, a parent or somebody in their school about this. Sorry, my point is you can talk about updating of guidelines, but just to get in the real world, you've now got this review commissioned by the Education Secretary with Ofsted's Chief Inspector Amanda Spielman leading it. But what's she been doing? Why is this not already in place? This is part of the sort of usual Ofsted inspection. But when you ask for a thematic review, what you do is you go detail, more detail into that one area. Obviously, when they do the Ofsted inspection, they're checking the curriculum, they're checking the teaching, the teaching quality and safeguarding and safeguarding with regards to this. But something else we have been doing, which I think is important, is we have recently changed the relationship health and sex education curriculum, which really does do a lot more to educate appropriate behaviour, consent, and many of the things, how to behave online, etc. And that was updated in May 2019, has been compulsory to be taught since September 2020.

So there have been things that have been... You know, that is incredibly important. We talked about that right at the start of this week. And we should say that's not been without a battle with the Conservative government, no less. But there we go. It's changed and it's changing. But my point to you is, what have they been inspecting around safeguarding until now? Because this isn't new. Maria Miller, the former Women's Minister, still a Conservative MP, put out a report five years ago when the Conservatives were in power and she was the chair of the Women and Equality Select Committee about this exact problem. And she says the inquiry she did in 2016 demonstrated to this government

that schools do not want to engage with these issues that they think they are too difficult to deal with because it is so widespread. Why wasn't that dealt with then? Well, it was. That actually is what led to the Keeping Children Safe in Education guidelines being updated. It's also led to an online safety bill, which is going through Parliament now, a violence against women and girls bill, which is going through Parliament now, a Violence Against Women and Girls Bill, which is going through Parliament now. It's led to a Tackling Child Sex Abuse Strategy, which was published in January. So there has been and there have been a lot of things that have been happening. But seriously, we have to take these things very seriously. And obviously, when you've got eleven and a half thousand reports on a website, some of which allege that, you know, kids have tried to, you know, make their fears, you know, discuss their concerns in school and they have been talked out of it or they haven't been allowed to go through it.

Clearly, that must not happen. Maria Miller says there are steps that were taken, but they didn't work. She says that unequivocally. And also it hasn't been implemented because schools have to protect their reputations. Well, schools have to protect their pupils as well. And that's part of the keeping children safe in education. They do have an obligation. And I'm sure the majority of them are, by the way, following the guidelines. But if there are areas where they're not, then that's where Ofsted and this thematic review will identify what more we need to do.

Obviously, we've done things. Some of those have been relatively recently implemented. But if we need to do more, we will do more because it is extremely serious. My point is this government, it's not a different government, it's not the Labour government, knew in 2016 that this was an issue. You can see quicker than 2021 if things aren't working. You could have avoided 11,500 people or testimonies, I should say, being put on this website. And let me put this to you. Maria Miller, who sat around that cabinet table, says this about the helpline, which launched at nine o'clock this morning. A helpline is not going to answer the problem. It will just drive a reporting frenzy, which the police will probably not be able to handle.

Yes, well, I think, you know, what will solve the problem is some of the things that we are actually in already. Clearly, you talked about education, changing the curriculum. That's obviously a recent thing that's been done. We won't see the impacts of that probably structurally for quite a while because it's relatively recent, but it is important. Online safety bill. Obviously, that isn't law yet, but when it is law, it will make a difference. For instance, on that, you're not going to, sorry, but just to come in on that before we give a full list, you're not putting age regulations on porn. We're putting a duty of care on platforms and on websites for them to make sure that age appropriate materials are...

Sorry, you're asking porn companies to make sure that the people who are watching it are the right age. You think porn companies are the right people to make sure that the people who are watching it are the right age. You think porn companies are the right people to trust with that, Minister? The platforms as well. The platforms as well as the websites. And I think that's very important. The platforms as well as the websites. So if it's shown on various platforms, social media platforms, there is a duty of care. And a duty of care is actually, you know, is quite a big responsibility. And that's something that is going through the Commons now, right? So it's not

yet legislation. But it's a big responsibility. You've outsourced it to the company's profiteering. Well, to be honest, you have to get to the source of the issue, right? You can't sit in Whitehall and go through every website and say this one, that one, not the other one. You have to have a system that you can actually implement and is actually sustainable in terms of, you know, the sort of I mean, gosh, I mean, you know, this is what's changed a lot since you and I were at school. Right. The social media platforms, the access to cameras has changed this whole debate and discussion quite considerably. So it is an important bill. But, you know, you do have to have things that are sustainable and you do have to put the duty of care where, you know,

where it's appropriate and where you can get those actions. The government has talked about age verification for years and failed was the point around that. The deluge of calls to this helpline, how quickly are you going to know if this has sorted the issue and how quickly will Ofsted report on safeguarding? I think the review were due to hear back at May, end of May. So that's the kind of timelines. Obviously, we'll get reports from the, I mean, the NSPCC opened up the helpline an hour and a half ago. So, you know, it's very new, but we will get some idea of, you know, the calls and

the amount of calls, etc. You know, over time, but the end of May is the date for the review to report. We're about the Ofsted review. Okay, I'll give that number in just a moment. Very briefly, I'll ask about something that's just broken this morning, speaks to another issue we're coming on to, racial inequality in the health system for women and men wanting children. Boris Johnson's most senior black advisor has resigned. Samuel Kasumu, number 10, special advisor for civil society and communities. What is your understanding as to why?

I have no understanding as to why, to be honest. I haven't heard from him and, you know, it's a personal matter and he hasn't provided any comments and certainly not to me. Well, Lord Woolley, who was appointed by Theresa May to look at the race audit and set it up, said there's a crisis at number 10 with dealing with racial inequality and it's not a great look, it's been said, the day after the government's released a report claiming the UK no longer had a system rigged against minorities. Well, no, but the important thing is actually to look at that report because that report is 285 pages.

I think he has and he's resigned. Well, we don't know that. You're speculating that. I don't know that and you don't know that. Well, he must have looked at it and he's resigned. You're making an assumption and it's a personal matter that I have no detail. I personally haven't heard that. You're putting one and one together and making three. Well, I'm asking you to help me with the sum, but fair enough. I take that point. I don't know. I've not heard from him at all. But I know resigning is a personal matter and it's only for him really to comment.

But the most important thing... Sorry, the reason I brought up Lord Woolley is because... Sorry, the reason I brought it up, as we heard in the news bulletin, is that he has spoken to him and says that he is disheartened. It's a very important point. This government's... Hang on, this government's taken very seriously. It's saying it's taken seriously around racial equality.

We're going to come on to that around facility. That's why I wanted to ask for you. But I understand what you're saying about your own insights into that appreciate your time this morning jillian keegan i hope we can talk again about the issue that we spent most of the time talking about the number i wanted to give out that that helpline nspcc is 0800 136 663 now i did ask you right at the beginning of the programme around changing rooms. Are you very happy about this? They're coming back. They've been closed for a year. When shops reopen, you're going to be able to use them.

There's going to be breaks between customers using a cubicle and limited entry. This is around COVID safety. One thing that isn't suggested is the quarantining of clothes. Have you been missing this? Catherine Shuttleworth, CEO of Savvy Marketing, who knows a thing or two about the high street. Catherine, are you excited about changing rooms coming back? Not desperately, but I'm one of those people now who orders most of the stuff online and tries it on in the privacy of my own bedroom. And I'm past the days of being in one of those fantastic, great big changing rooms with all my mates when I was 18, trying all sorts of crazy things on.

And I think people have mixed views about it. But I think, Emma, what's interesting is it's great news if you want to go and have a bra fitted. One of the last things when you do need to go to a fitting room, particularly people, girls going for the first bra, women post-surgery. I think it's really good news. And Marks and Spencers have announced this week that they're going to do Zoom consultations as well, if you're still too scared to go out to the shops and have your bra fitted. So that's one of the pros, even if you're not personally. I have to say, we have had quite a few messages. I'll come to those in just a moment around the excitement for the reopening for some people. Some will be saying, I don't know if it's safe. Yeah, I think that's a kind of

legitimate concern. And there are some fairly strict rules within the guidance. You know, you can't go in and change your room with another person. The rooms have got to be cleaned down in between people going into those changing rooms. And I think there will be a lot of safety. And it's not in the retailer's interest not to make it as safe as possible. But I think understandably, people will still be a bit nervous going out to go into stores, particularly, you know, people who've been shielding for a year are going to feel nervous wherever they go,

be it in a changing room or just in a normal shop. Isn't it crucial though, around what shops have to offer? Because this is what shops were lobbying the government about, that this was their unique selling point versus websites that you can go in and try it on. And you and I have

spoken before about what's happening to the high street. Don't we need changing rooms to actually distinguish from online? Yes, I think we do. And I think one of the things about changing rooms now is where it really provides a great service. So some stores do special schemes where they'll have a personal shopper. You can go into those changing rooms. You might be able to have a glass of champagne and sort of enjoy the experience of shopping in a real shop. That sounds very nice. That's lovely, doesn't it? Now, I don't think that will come back straight away

because I don't think the regulations will allow it. I've never had that. I need that to happen quite soon, Catherine. Emma, you need to get down there and somebody will bring stuff, tell you it suits you. You'll say, no, it doesn't, and you'll have that debate with your champagne. And the more champagne you drink, the more things will suit you, tell you it suits you. You'll say, no, it doesn't. And you'll have that debate with your champagne. And the more champagne you drink, the more things will suit you, I would imagine.

But I think what retailers are saying is we need to get back to normal. What's really interesting is being allowed to open much longer hours. I was talking to a retailer the other day, a very famous, big, fast fashion retailer. You know, they'd open 24 hours a day if they could to try and get back the sales

that they've lost during lockdown because they don't have an online business. And I think all those things that make retailers really different need to be celebrated. So changing rooms for some people, I'm interested in what listeners have got to say, will be quite an important reopening. Well, let's get to that. Thank you very much for giving us your take and the insight from the industry. Catherine Shuttle with messages coming in. I feel the same way as you do, Emma, and every woman I know says the same. We want to try things on. We're sick of returning things. I want to go shopping, have a coffee, come home with my item. I think it's out of touch when business people say everybody wants to shop online. I think this is the male model of shopping and not what women want.

Another one here. Yes, yes, yes. Can't wait for them to reopen. I won't buy certain clothes, jeans without trying them on. You know, I don't understand why changing rooms were considered so dangerous, given that shops put in place strict Covid measures, sanitiser. I for one applaud their return. But Barbara says I've always hated them and now know exactly what to buy. So I no longer have any need. Barbara, I don't understand how you know yourself so well. Perhaps I need to I need to have a chat with you. Thanks for those messages. Keep them coming in. Now, I did say we were going to come to this around racial equality in the health sector, specifically around IVF.

People from ethnic minority backgrounds undergoing fertility treatment are less likely to have a baby, with black patients having the lowest chances of successful treatment. This is according to a recent report by the Human Fertility and Embryology Authority. That's the UK's regulator of the fertility sector and embryo research. New figures show black patients aged 30 to 34 have an average birth rate of 23 percent from the procedure compared to 30 percent for mixed and white patients. Let's try and understand this now with Sally Cheshire, who's the outgoing chair of the regulator, and Dr. Karen Joash, consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist at Imperial College Healthcare Trust

and spokesperson for race equality at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. Sally, first of all, tell us why that disparity between those two numbers? It's already very nerve wracking to go in for IVF, but those numbers are what you look at when you're doing it. Good morning, Emma. Yes, it's incredibly stressing to go through fertility treatment. We think there are a number of different factors that affect black and Asian women specifically. There are social reasons why fertility isn't always discussed in communities, a perception perhaps from some of our black patients who tell us that they assume they can become pregnant very easily and that when they don't, it's quite a shock.

And we also see socioeconomic factors. Black and Asian women are overrepresented in communities where NHS funding is poorer and where there is lower access. And there are medical reasons. So Asian women, for example, suffer from a higher range of ovulatory disorders. They struggle with ovulation. And black women, we understand, have a higher rate of tubal disease and also fibroids, which can prevent a pregnancy. So we don't have a definitive explanation of how each of those factors impact, but it's become clear through this report, from some work we did a couple of years ago, that there are a lot of factors that we need to make women and couples in those communities more aware of.

Karen, good morning. Thank you for joining us. Your view on this report when you saw the discrepancies? So first of all, to say, you know, fantastic that HFAA undertaken this report. It's the first time that it's actually been done. So in terms of looking at disparities, we weren't probably aware of the extent of what actually has been occurring, but it's stark. It's, to be honest with you, quite shocking. You know, I've got personal experience of IVF. My twin sister had IVF. And, you know, looking back, you're absolutely correct. You don't see the black women in the waiting room. They're not there. Why are they not there? Partly it's access. Is it within their local communities? Partly. But in addition, why is their age different from when

they are accessing IVF services? Where are those lost five years when we know our fertility clock is literally ticking away? It's just absolutely, it's so sad. Is it that women are coming to the GP surgery and being dismissed? Is it that the referrals are not being made, but there's a five-year lag and a loss and it's, you know, first steps, you know, there's lots of good stuff in this report, but it's to try and reclaim back those years, whether it's via patient information with the women, whether it's via GP access, really, really important. That's one factor. The other factor that we definitely know when we look at is the numbers.

It's really stark. You're talking about 60,000 women. The proportion within that report of black women that have accessed it, we're talking are in 2,000, 60,000 women, the proportion within that report of black women that have accessed it, we're talking, you know, 2,000, 3,000. So it's really, really low in terms of the disparity of black women accessing that care. The other take I then look at is how many black fertility specialists are there? Because when I look at a system that commissions care, we know from previous reports, we know from everything that we've been discussing about race that diversity brings the richness to the table of people who structure a system to deliver the care in the best possible way well that's why i don't know if i if i may i was just going to say

that's why i brought up with the minister around what's happened with um i don't know if you were able to hear that but the the most senior advisor around race issues to boris johnson has just resigned and we're not linking the two because the government is saying it's not linked to the moment. Of course, we'll hear from him in the fullness of time. But this report was only out yesterday from Number 10 with the headline that the UK no longer has a system rigged against people from ethnic minorities.

That was the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities actually said that family structure and social class has a bigger impact than race on how people's lives turn out. Very aware we're talking a day after that about health. What do you make of that in light of what you know around health inequality in the health system? So I, you know, I thank you for bringing this up because I looked at that report and I looked at it again and it's caused a great deal of distress for many people. And reality of it is that when you have a discussion if you have a diversity around the table you will get the answers so we can't have people um who for example are from a black background who have just been brought up within the UK we need people who look at it from with

a background from the African background the Caribbean background people who have been disadvantaged socially people who haven't been disadvantaged socially. Because the reality of it is when we look at our system within the UK, racism is probably better than in certain parts of Europe. However, it still exists enough that it affects us on every single level. There is a report that was done where, I think it was a few years ago, asking people, will you be happy for your child to marry a black person? And we know that actually 20% of people within the UK would not be happy. That reflects a level of racism. That means if you've got 10 people in the room, two people will be racist. And those are views that are not openly expressed, that are within their mindset, that would not want somebody to be close to them within their family therefore that will exist within every single layer education it will exist

within health it will exist when you go into a shop it will exist because those biases are ingrained within a system it's not saying the system was set up to be racist by virtue of the people that operate within this, racism will exist. Karen, sorry, your line just slightly went out there. But I got the measure of it. I could talk to you for much longer and perhaps we will do more again on this. But Sally, if I could just come back to you a moment. Now that you've heard this data, if you're sitting at home

and you're affected by this, perhaps you're a black woman, black man going through fertility or from an Asian background, because there's detail around those groups as well and what's going on with donor eggs. What would you do now with that information? Clearly, we're primarily concerned with women and men who are coming forward for treatment. I think Karen and the discussion we've just had highlights a bigger problem with awareness before you even start on your fertility journey. And that's a whole new ballgame.

But if you are struggling to conceive, what we want more than anything is for people who come forward to have equal access to treatment and to have the right information. So you need to contact your GP. We are going to work more with GPs to make sure they are aware of the messages because patients sometimes see both delays for medical reasons if they're having investigations and or surgery, but they also see delays in referral for treatment. Karen referred to the fact that only around 2,000 or 3,000 patients out of the 60,000 who have IVF treatment each year are from an ethnic minority and we need to have those people come forward earlier make sure they're referred quickly have an honest conversation in their clinic about what their real chances are and so a lot of it is

also yeah well it's about being believed as well and also about advocating Sally Cheshire thank you very much for your time Dr Karen Jawashors, thank you to you. Get your messages in to us about your experiences on that on 84844. It's now time for our drama, which I did not expect. They went for walks and they slept. Karen had one room, Ben another, but when the baby cried at night, I heard two sets of footsteps. They were slowly letting go of the breath they were holding and as they passed the baby between them were building trust in each other. They went and yesterday she phoned me to tell me that Ben had gone back to Australia.

They have given each other a year to decide if they want to live on the same continent, in the same town, in the same apartment. I hope the answer is yes, that the continent is Europe and the town is Copenhagen. But I don't mind. I'm like a man standing on a shore, watching people he loves rowing a boat. As long as they are safe in the boat, nothing else is important.

I am alone in the house now. Write soon, for I have no one else to talk to. Love, Anders. Inverness, 12th January. My dear Anders, here it is, the bear. Only a little bear. I'm posting this in Inverness before I leave for home.

I'm waiting till I reach home and my own computer to see if you've written to me again. Something to look forward to. I've enjoyed myself with Mary and Vasily. But I felt I was an interruption. They have much to do, building the house, obviously, but also building up the life they've chosen to lead. I'll write again when I'm home and respond to whatever you've told me in the letter

I'm hoping to find. Much love, Tina. 18th January. Dear Tina, The bear, does it have a name, is sitting on my desk, watching me as I write. I'm keeping hold of him to add to my collection of a feather, a square of cloth and the letters.

I like the way you have made his mouth turn up. I can imagine you were smiling as you did this piece of sewing. I'm smiling. I think I will give Mr. Bear a name. Peter, after Professor Globe. Now I am wondering about my idea of giving a man's name to an object made of wool. Tell me what you think. Thank you for the bear.

I did not remember to say that at first. Love, Anders. 6th of February Dear Tina, You must forgive me for writing, but I have become fearful that I have upset you or something has occurred, and last night I could not sleep.

However sad I might be feeling, Peter the Bear is still smiling. This made me hopeful that you are also smiling and that the reason for your silence is a joyful one, which you will explain when you have time. Love, Anders. 8th February Dear Anders I wish I could stitch a smile onto my face but I can't everything has changed no

nothing has changed it's just that I have all at once discovered that I was wrong in the way I understood everything to be. I have your letter about Corinne and your letter about the bear. I think maybe we should stop here with you happy, with me having shared your happiness. I don't want to burden you with my unhappiness. Tina. 9th of February.

Dear Tina, You must tell me what has happened, please. I will not stop thinking about you and wondering what it is until you write again. I will not stop writing to you until you reply to me. Love, Anders writing to you until you reply to me. Love, Anders. 16th of February. Dear Anders,

I'm sorry. I owe you an explanation. I came home from Inverness a day earlier than I planned. I thought I'd be pleased to be home. But no. Just a dull sense of a tiring journey ended. Edward was there, sitting in his shirt sleeves with a pot of tea made, keeping it warm with a tea cosy I knitted years ago.

I felt warm for a moment, knowing Edward had taken his overalls off and made the tea, because he knew I'd appreciate it. Edward told me all the things that had annoyed him since I'd left. If anything good had happened in my absence, he didn't think to mention it. I expected the bedroom to be a trampled mess of discarded clothes and dirty sheets. But it was as clean and tidy as I'd left it, and this, like the tea and overalls, made me feel I should appreciate Edward's little kindnesses. So tidy was the bedroom,

I wondered briefly if he'd slept in another room. When I woke up in the morning, Edward was already gone. You'll be ahead of me by now. Did I know? While I was brushing my teeth, combing my hair? I couldn't say.

I was still safe in the before. I went down to the kitchen. All three men were there. I said to Edward, have you been sleeping while I've been away? For the first time I understood the question I'd been asking myself since I went to bed. I looked up at the three faces watching me. And all that I thought about my life dropped away. Tam walked out of the kitchen. Andrew stayed. I looked square at Edward.

I could see it in his face, in Andrew's face, in Tam's quick retreat. Had he lied to me then? I can't say what I would have done. But he didn't. He asked Andrew to go. Then he told me the truth. He's been in a relationship with another woman for over a year. He's visited her house in the afternoons when I thought he was playing golf.

On some of the evenings when I thought he was at the pub. On the rare occasions when he's had an excuse to stay away, he's spent the night at her house. I've never had one moment's suspicion. At first I was furious. It wasn't the betrayal so much as the detail. The woman he's been having an affair with is Daphne Trigg. I might have been able to swallow the enormity of my husband being attracted to a woman so offensively dull if she'd been physically much more appealing than me.

I had been, as you know, puzzling over how my life had turned out and why. But I thought at least I understood what that life was. I understood there was no passion between Edward and me, but... as long as it worked for him, I had to make it work for us both. Because he was a good man. Loyal to me, I would have said. How can I make sense of the life we've lived together? It's too hard to think. Writing to you is...

one of the things I need to think about. I must ask you... not to answer this letter. I know whatever you say will be thoughtful and kind. And I can't bear it. Please wait until I can be sure my feet are planted squarely on firmer ground. Tina. I can be sure my feet are planted squarely on firmer ground. Tina.

27th February. Dear Tina, I have waited for your next letter, as you asked me to do. But I am finding it hard. What must I do? There is a part of me that feels empty. I have passed some time reading your letters. I'm sure if Bella was still alive she would be telling you this is the right moment. I would come to you if you wished it, but I think we should meet for the first time here, under the same roof as the Tolland men. I will say nothing about what you told me in your last letter, because I do not feel

I have the right. If you do not answer this, I will not know if you have received it. I say this, of course, to make it harder for you not to reply. I think of you every day and I feel pain on your behalf. Love, Anders. Berry St Edmunds, 5th of March. Dear Anders, you made it hard for me not to answer. I wanted to write, but while this is true, it's not necessarily right. I'm living in Bella's old flat in town.

When I arrived here, I shut the door behind me, took Bella's purple embroidered jacket out of the wardrobe, and cried and cried into it till I could almost hear her voice telling me to stop. I've been here for a week now. Let me tell you what I now know. The facts. And we'll continue tomorrow. With regards to changing rooms and the taxi driver says,

buying online and trying on at home and then returning the items, then ordering more, obviously creates more traffic on the roads with delivery vans and they're driving fast because of tight schedules. Bad for the environment. First thing I need to know about an item is what the material feels like. I don't think that changing rooms are that dangerous. Plus online is creating the demise of shops. And thank you very much for getting in touch with us.

Loads of messages today and also lots coming in about Sharon Stone too. All that coming to listen back again on BBC Sounds if you missed it. Back tomorrow at 10. Hello, I'm Vanessa Casile and there is nothing I love more than a great documentary. I'm woken by the sound of gunfire.

There's something about a true story, told well, that changes your perspective on the world. It trusts the wrong people and it's obviously cost them a life. Radio 4 is home to the world's greatest audio documentaries. A film showing bright pink bottoms sitting on Victoria sponge cakes is projected onto a screen over the stage. And you can find the best of them all in one place, twice a week.

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I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long

has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.