Woman's Hour - Shazia Mirza, Haiti, Dutch surnames, Imposter Syndrome, Celia Pym on socks.

Episode Date: December 27, 2024

Haiti has been ravaged by political instability and gang violence since the assassination of the country’s president in 2021 – and this year it’s spiralled with armed gangs in control of much of the capital Port-au-Prince. Alongside the violence is an escalating humanitarian crisis, which is severely impacting women and children with widespread hunger and malnutrition. Kylie Pentalow finds out more from the BBC’s senior investigations correspondent Nawal Al-Maghafi.In the Netherlands, the 31st December 2024 marks the deadline for people to register if they want their child to have a double-barrelled surname. Children in the Netherlands automatically took their father’s name, but in 1998 the law changed to allow them to take their mother’s name instead - but only with the consent of the father. A group of women who believe this is discriminatory are challenging the law. Kylie speaks to Linde Bryk, head of strategic court cases at women’s rights organisation Bureau Clara Wichmann, and Maartje Passchier who has been affected by the law change. The science teacher turned actor, writer and comedian Shazia Mirza has been taking part in a landmark year for Muslim women in comedy – performing in a touring show called Comedy Queens, where the lineup is entirely female and Muslim. She’s also been reflecting on her earlier years, growing up in a strict religious family in Birmingham, as she is writing a memoir. She joins Kylie to discuss her life before standup.On Christmas Day we had a programme devoted to the seasonal theme of Comfort - what it is, why we crave it, and the myriad of ways we can find it. Co-presenters Nuala McGovern and Anita Rani also discussed the flip side - importance of getting outside your comfort zone - with guests including organisational psychologist Fiona Murden and the food critic Grace Dent   BBC News is releasing a new episode of Imposter Syndrome today on iplayer with guest Sir Richard Branson. Therapist Julia Bueno joins Kylie to discuss the ways that imposter syndrome or self-criticism affects so many of us. In 2022 Julia published ‘Everyone’s A Critic’ based on conversations with her patients and she shares ways to cope when imposter syndrome starts to hold you back. The artist Celia Pym works with textiles to create her pieces. Her latest exhibition: Socks: The Art of Care and Repair looks at sustainability in fashion and the importance of mending. Presented by Kylie Pentalow Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your company in this rather odd time between Christmas and New Year when no one really seems to know what day it is, do they? It is Friday, by the way, in case you're wondering. So coming up today, the teacher-turned-comedian Shazia Mirza joins me in the studio. She'll be talking about starring in the show Comedy Queens, where the lineup is entirely female and Muslim. Plus, do you have imposter syndrome?

It's that feeling of inadequacy, even though you might be having great success. You may hear that little voice saying you're not quite good enough. We have an expert talking about how it can impact your life. And we'd love to hear from you about this. Has imposter syndrome held you back? Or maybe you have advice for others about how to ignore those rather niggling doubts. So you can text the programme. The number is 84844. You can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100444. And of course, we're on social media at BBC Women's Hour. So plenty of ways to get in touch with us. Also coming up, the Dutch mothers fighting for their children to carry their surnames. They're challenging a law that only allows them to give their child

both family names if the father consents. And when you have a hole in your sock, what do you do? I'm guessing you probably throw the pair away. Well, I'll be speaking to one woman who is encouraging us to darn and repair and even has a whole exhibition of socks. That's all to come. But first, Haiti has been ravaged by political instability and gang violence since the assassination of the Caribbean country's president in 2021. And this year it's spiralled with armed gangs in control of much of the capital, Port-au-Prince. Now just this week, at least three people in the city died

when armed men opened fire at journalists, police and medical staff during a briefing to announce the reopening of the country's biggest hospital. And alongside the violence is an escalating humanitarian crisis, which is severely impacting women and children with widespread hunger and malnutrition. The BBC's senior investigations correspondent, Noelle Almagafi, witnessed this on a recent reporting trip to Haiti, and I'm delighted to say that she joins me now. Noelle, it does feel like we haven't heard about Haiti for some time. Can you update us on the situation there?

I mean, it is a country that has been devastated by gang violence. You know, people have been devastated by gang violence. They control over 80% of the capital city now. They have seen four prime ministers in the last year alone, most of them being pushed out because of the violence and because of mismanagement and corruption. It's completely lawless. It's become an impossible place for Haitians to survive in. They have had a complete deterioration of the humanitarian situation. More than half the population are food insecure, which means they don't know where their next meal is coming from. They've had all public hospitals, but one shut down in the capital city. You know, it's a really devastating place to visit. And you've just returned from a week, you were embedded with

Kenyan police there who were trying to restore law and order. What was that week like? uptick in the violence. We were meant to go in a few days earlier than we did. But before we went in, an international airliner was shot at as it was landing at the main international airport in Port-au-Prince. And therefore, the main airport was shut down. So it took us a little while longer to get in. And because of this deterioration in the security situation, the international community has put in this multi-national security support force that is being led by the Kenyans to go in. And the main aim is for them to is to restore law and order. But there are only 400 of these police officers. And right now there is said to be more than 12,000 gang members in Haiti.

So they're really outnumbered. Initially, they were promised two and a half thousand men. But these men haven't arrived. The men we embedded with have been there for six months now. They work 24 hours a day. And what they do is they go in these armored vehicles. They drive around the city. And the idea is to try and pacify, that's the term they use, entire neighbourhoods that have been taken over by the gangs.

But when you're completely outnumbered, what ends up happening is you stay in these armoured vehicles and you drive around and they're being shot at by gang members. But all they can do is really shoot back. And now that's not resolving the core of the problem. If anything, it's actually increasing the violence in the capital city. There are so many people being caught in this crossfire between the Kenyan police and the gang members. People are being driven out of their neighborhoods. You know, in December alone, an extra 50,000 people have been internally displaced, pushed out of their neighbourhoods. You know, in December alone, an extra 50,000 people have been internally displaced, pushed out of their homes and driven to these IDP camps. And so, you know, the job is,

the task that they've been given is just impossible. And particularly women and children affected. Exactly. I mean, we went to this IDP camp. So we spent the first half of the trip embedded with the Kenyan police and driving around these gang-held territories. And then the second half of the trip, we actually embedded with the World Food Programme. And so they took us to this IDP camp, one of many. And it's actually a school that's been turned into an IDP camp. And it was, you know, it was incredibly busy, really crowded. We met this one family that were living in a balcony that was about one meters by three meters, and there were 18 people living on this one balcony. And these are places that, you know,

people are seeking refuge in, but are also places where drug use and sexual violence are rampant. And you have all these, you know, those women, children, it's, you know, that are desperate to go back home, but because of this escalation and violence, they can't. And children going hungry, what is the issue with malnutrition and also our aid agents is able to get food to those who need it? So the humanitarian situation in Haiti has escalated over the years. And obviously, this gang violence has only tipped it over the edge, you have more than half the population, food insecure, which means they don't know where their next meal is coming from. But you also have 760,000 children that are severely acutely malnourished,

which in very simple terms means they are starving. We went to the last remaining hospital in Port-au-Prince. And initially, the first thing we did was we went to one of the wards that had all these young men that were victims of the gun violence. And as we were leaving the hospital, I asked to go to the pediatric ward. And so they took us to the pediatric ward. And I saw this young girl who was so acutely malnourished. She's two years old and I have a child that's the same age.

And so you can see the difference. This girl was very frail. Her name was Shaina. Her mama, Vandaanda was with her. And initially, me and my team were like, you know what? This isn't part of our story. Our story is about gang violence. And so, you know, let's just leave it.

So then I went to speak to the mom anyway. And I was just like, you know, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry to see your daughter like this. What happened? And she said, Well, I come from Salino. And where I come from, the gangs have taken over. And she I had gone to get her treatment. But then the violence got so bad, we had to stay home. And I couldn't go to the hospital that is near us. And so she was deteriorating. But there was absolutely nothing I could do for her. And, you know, at that point, I was like, no, this is, you know, this is a really important part of the story. And she wanted to tell her story. And so we spoke to her. And it

was just such a heartbreaking interview, because even though the circumstances that put her daughter in that position were so out of her control, you know, there was absolutely nothing she could have done about it. There is something about being a mom that no matter what, you just still feel so much shame that you weren't able to save your child. Now, her daughter has been able now to receive some care in this one hospital that is remaining in the capital, the one public hospital, I must say. But there are so many children that are withering away in their homes, unable to access any health care, unable to get food,

mums who are unable to get their family's supplies. And yeah, it was a really devastating interview. It must be particularly hard. I've got a son a similar devastating interview. It must be particularly hard. I've got a son a similar age, and it must be particularly hard for you seeing that, and do you feel like you actually want to help and intervene? I mean, you know, this isn't the first time I've covered malnutrition. I did it, you know, in other places around the world, but I wasn't a mum,

and I actually said this to the team at the time. I said, you know, in other places around the world, but I wasn't a mum. And I actually said this to the team at the time. I said, you know, this is the first time I interview a mother with a malnourished child since becoming a mum. And I found it really hard to ask the questions, you know, really basic questions like, how did she get this way? Because I just know how much you blame yourself as a mother for not being able to do everything you can to save your child. You know, at one point, I wanted to ask her about her child's future. And our cameraman, Jack Garland, you know, I kind of stuttered, and I just couldn't get the question out. And he was like, why don't you ask her about what she wishes for her daughter's future? And so I did. And then when we left, I was like, you know, it was so hard for me to ask that

because her daughter's in such a bad way, that it was it was really difficult to have her even think about what the future may hold for her daughter, especially in a country like Haiti, where there are very little prospects for the younger generation. So you know, it was it is really hard. That's really important reporting. Noelle, thank you very much for your is really hard that's really important uh reporting noelle thank you very much uh for your time here on woman's hour thank you for having me now in the netherlands the 31st of december 2024 marks the deadline for people to register if they want their child to have a double-barreled surname for a a long time, children in the Netherlands automatically took their father's name. But in 1998, the law changed

to allow them to take their mother's name instead, but only with the consent of the father. Double-barrelled names were not allowed until a new law came in this year. Again, though, only if both parents agree. Now, a group of women who believe that this is discriminatory are challenging the law. And here to tell us more is Linda Brick,

head of strategic court cases at women's rights organisation, Bureau Clara Witchman, which is helping the women who are bringing the legal challenge. And also, also, Mertia Pasir, who has been affected by this law change. Linda, if I can start with you, can you just tell us a bit about this law that came into effect this year? What's changed? Yes, so prior there was this default system in place where if you were married, the child

automatically received the father's surname, and it was impossible to have both the father's and the mother's surname. And then only if a child was born and there wasn't a case of marriage, then the child received the mother's name. So with this new law, it's possible for children who are born after the 1st of January 2024 to receive a combined surname, so fathers and mothers. And there is a transitional agreement in place that allows for children born as of the 1st of January 2016 to, with a retroactive effect, also receive a combined surname.

So you think, OK, we're towards equal legislation. But then, indeed, as you just mentioned, the other parent needs to consent. And that's where it actually goes wrong at this point in time. So what's the 31st of December deadline about? Why is that significant? That's significant because that ends the transitional period for which the law allows for children who are born between 2016 and 2024 to receive that combined surname. So that actually means that women in the Netherlands only had a year to convince, I really have to say convince because that's often the case, the other parent to consent to adding their surname to the child's surname. And the organisation that you're working for is helping

women to bring a challenge to this law. So what specifically do you want to change? Yes, so we say that the law is problematic in three areas. First of all, this part where it requires the consent of the other parent. And if you do not receive the consent of the other parent to add your surname, the law does not provide you with the option to seek substitute consent from the courts. And we say that is actually in contradiction with the right to an effective remedy under the European Convention of Human Rights. Secondly, we argue that the law discriminates women because it builds on this system that primarily in the

past passed on the father's last name so now we see that this one disproportionately affects women and that's of course in contravention with article 8 of the European convention but also with several articles of the United Nations women's Convention. And then thirdly, this new legislation states that if you do not make a decision, so still the default is surname father in case of marriage, surname mother in case of no marriage, and then only if you choose a double combined surname. But if you look at that, that's actually based on gender stereotypes, and it's not progressing towards equality, material equality. And so we also say the default should be both surnames,

and then you can deviate. And so we see at the moment also that sort of safety net standard is in contradiction with the United Nations Women's Convention. Mattia, if I can bring you in, can you describe how you've been affected by this? Well, my son is six years old, so he was born in 2018. So he's eligible for this transitional agreement. And when he was born, his father and were married so automatically he had he has his paternal surname but four years ago his father and I got divorced and after that I started to think about this surname thing and this year I learned about this transitional agreement, and I tried to apply to

the local town hall to add my name to his paternal surname. And they told me that it wasn't possible without the father's consent, and also that the father would have to be present to sign the certificate. And his father wasn't in our lives at the time and he was not living in the Netherlands as well so it wasn't physically possible for us to do that so at that time I thought okay so apparently this is not for me and I put it behind me and then a couple of weeks ago I read an article in a Dutch newspaper about this law and how it discriminates women and I came in touch with Clara Wichman and they connected me to a solicitor, an attorney. And we have now applied to the Dutch court to try to get this consent from the court to do it without the father's consent. So what would it mean then for you,

for your son to have your surname? Why is it important? Yeah, that is a very good question. And I've also been asked this question a couple of times. It is also something that we have to argument to the court. Why is it so important to me? And I think it's about many different reasons. First of all, I think it's good for my son. It's in his benefit to be able to connect to his paternal roots as well as to my roots. Also, in my case, it also has to do with a family bond, being a family, being able to share a surname with your child, why wouldn't anybody want to do that? And in my case, I think it's also about acknowledgement because I'm a sole caretaker. So it would make me also very proud to be able to share even partially a surname with my son.

But I really think that the question should be, why wouldn't anyone want to share a surname with their child? Linda, Mertje just said that she read about this in her newspaper. So is this a big issue then at the moment in the Netherlands? Yes, I think what we saw is at the beginning of the year, municipalities were sort of getting used to the new legislation. Then we saw is at the beginning of the year municipalities were sort of getting used to the new legislation then we saw that women were hitting this wall that also Marcia just mentioned right that she didn't get the consent and so the municipality refused and then we saw this sort of influx of women filing cases with the courts all hitting a wall because many of the courts said well actually the law does not provide for substitute consent,

so we cannot grant you it. And then we started getting involved because we said, well, but you're ignoring here international law. And in the Netherlands, you're bound to international law as a court. So you have to start considering this. And so, indeed, we asked women to come forward to also show our political leaders how big this issue actually is. And at the time, I mean, when the law was being created, also politicians warned against this sort of mechanism which you would get.

Women trying to get consent, not receiving it. But at the time, they said, well, we know that it would be more equal to put this default in that both surnames are added. But, you know, in the end, everyone wants the father's name anyway, that was a consideration. And so we see here that we have to battle up and many women got forward. And so we are fighting through the courts. And at the same time, we hope that the political leaders actually take steps as well, because there is the possibility for them to also make amendments. Mercier, just briefly, if you can, how hopeful are you that this will be successful? I think the chances of me getting to my primary goal, which is a combination of his father's surname and my surname, well, I think they're 50-50. I'm not really sure how to express it in numbers, but that's how it feels for me.

But I decided to proceed with this case anyway, because I think the greater good is also very important. This law is now being unfair towards women. And I hope that in the future, the law will change and that we will have a law that gives women the chance to proceed with this without the father's consent. Because there is no disadvantage for the father, for a child to have a combined surname. Okay, Metia Persia and Linda Brick from Bureau Clara Wichman, thank you very much. And we have contacted the Dutch government for comment, but we haven't yet had a response.

Now, don't forget to get in touch with us about your experiences of imposter syndrome, that feeling of self-doubt or feeling a bit like a fraud, particularly in the workplace. You can text us on 84844. And we're on social media too, of course, it's 84844. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us too through our website,enty of ways to get in touch with us. Now, joining me in the studio is science teacher turned actor, writer and comedian Shazia Mirza. She's been taking part in a landmark year for Muslim women in comedy, performing in a touring show called Comedy Queens, where the line-up is entirely female and Muslim.

Now, they've been playing to sell-out crowds around the UK this year and now abroad too. And she's also been reflecting on her earlier years, growing up in a strict religious family in Birmingham. And she's writing a memoir of her life before stand-up. Welcome to the studio, Shazia. Thank you so much for coming in. So you've been performing in Sweden just last week. How was it?

We were in Stockholm. It was great. You know, people think, oh, you know, you're going somewhere foreign. Will they understand you? Will they get your sense of humour? People in Sweden, they speak really good English, sometimes better than the English. They're really good, humoured. I've had a history of being in Sweden. When I first started comedy, they were one of the first countries to invite me over and do stand up. They speak excellent English. They've got a really good sense of humour. They love women. They're all into let's hear women's voices and stuff like that. And we had a really great time there, all of us. So tell us about Comedy Queens then. And how's it gone down? And it has been really popular, hasn't it? Did you expect it to

be like that? Well, when I first started comedy, I was the only Muslim woman doing stand up in Britain. And now there's five of us. So things are moving at a very fast rate. But now that there's five of us, we can actually perform together in a group and do shows. And we were put together by 26, which is this group of three Muslim men, actually, that put on a lot of music events. And they decided that there was nothing out there for Muslim women in terms of entertainment. And they saw us performing and they put us together. We call ourselves the Muslim Spice Girls because there's something for everyone in this. Everyone's different. Everyone's got a different voice. You know, we've got a Moroccan, we've got a Sudanese, we've got a Pakistani, we've got somebody from Yemen, we've got,

you know, Egyptian. so it's a real variety of voices we don't overlap in material and it's really important to say this is not a sermon or a lecture it is a comedy show and people go away laughing and we have done we sold out the O2 we sold out the NIA in Birmingham. We've done really big venues, 3,000, 4,000-seater venues. The first in general that didn't want a leery atmosphere, didn't want to be in amongst stag nights. You know, they wanted to be with other women, laughing with other women. And, you know, for Muslim women, there's been a very negative preconception about us. We've been called letterboxes, bank robbers, terrorists, you know, we've never really been seen as entertainers. And yet there was a massive

audience for us where a lot of Muslim women were not being entertained and they wanted to be. They wanted to go out and laugh and be with other women and have fun. And the minute these tickets went on sale, they flew out so fast. I mean, we didn't expect to do two tours within six months of each other. Then we got invited to Sweden, that also sold out. And now we're going to go on tour worldwide. Brilliant. And what's the audience makeup like? Is it mainly women? It is mainly, I mean, in Sweden, it was mixed. You know, there was the old white men who were Swedish, who also enjoyed it. And then there were Swedish women, there were Muslim women. It was a real mix in Sweden and they really enjoyed it. In Britain, it's been all women.

Not just Muslim women, it's been women from all different kinds of backgrounds. But I felt like the women were really free in the audience. They were free to laugh. They weren't worried about what their husband thought, what their boyfriend thought. You know, what were the men laughing at? They just felt so free to laugh. They weren't worried about what their husband thought, what their boyfriend thought, you know, what were the men laughing at? They just felt so free to laugh. And it's been quite a raucous atmosphere, actually. It sounds like a nice environment. It's lovely. You know, we sold out the O2 and it was so great to go out on stage there and look out and see just a sea of women just having having a really good time it's been fantastic i mentioned that you were um a science teacher before you turned to comedy yeah

um did did you always know that you wanted to be an entertainer although in some ways i guess teachers are entertainers aren't they in a slightly different way yeah the ones I taught with were definitely entertainers not on purpose I taught in a really rough East End comprehensive I mean it was the first school I ever taught in I was 21 they weren't really interested in science neither was I so it was very difficult for both of us. So we thought we'll pass the time together by entertaining each other. At that point, I didn't I never knew I was going to be a comedian because when I was growing up, nobody on TV ever looked like me. You know, my dad always used to say to me, hurry up, hurry up, get down the stairs. Trevor is on the TV because Trevor MacDonald was the closest thing to an Asian woman at the time. And honestly, I grew up thinking I was a black man.

I was thinking, why? Why do we have to watch Trevor MacDonald every night? He made us sit in front of the TV because Trevor MacDonald was the only person of colour on the TV at that time. I know he wasn't doing stand up, but he was talking and he was there. And my dad used to make us watch him like, look, Trevor's done it. You can do it. So it's it's very hard when, you know, people have this phrase where they say, you know, if you see it, you can be it. But what if you don't see it? I never saw anybody that looked like me on TV.

But there has to be somebody that does it first. There has to be somebody that breaks the barriers and says, you know what, I know it's all white men on TV telling jokes, but maybe I could do this. It's brave, though, isn't it? I mean, we're going to talk about imposter syndrome, but it is brave being that kind of first person to take that step. Because I'll tell you why it's brave because I

know it because I've been there you get a lot of criticism you get a lot of abuse you get it not just from maybe your own community from your family from critics from the industry from other comedians you get it from every angle because you know sometimes if people don't understand what you're joking about, they will just criticise it. That's the easiest thing to do. Or they will just abuse you. And I got a lot of criticism.

I got a lot of abuse. And I took it and I thought, if I can survive this, then when the next wave of women that look like me come along, I'm going to make sure I lift them up and take them with me. And that's why I am very proud to be part of Comedy Queens, because I hope this generation of new women, of Muslim women, have an easier time than I did. Are you getting people coming to you, young women coming to you and saying, this is what I want to do? I have a lot of women that write to me and they don't necessarily say they want to be stand-up comedians but they say I want to do this, I want

to be in music, I want to be an actor, I want to do this but my parents won't let me, they don't understand. How did you do it? What do I need to do? How do I become more resilient to the criticism and the barriers that face me? And I think sometimes young women, they just need encouragement and support. And that's enough really, to encourage them and to support them and inspire them to carry on. Because I remember when I first started stand-up, I started with a lot of great women who just disappeared. After a few years, they just disappeared. And when I started stand-up about 15 years ago,

there weren't that many women and we didn't get much support. There wasn't much camaraderie because there wasn't many of us. And I saw so many brilliant women that started comedy and then they just disappeared. So I think what women can achieve with support and encouragement, it goes a long way. You mentioned your family. What was it like growing up in Birmingham? You're writing your memoir. So I guess you know, people have this perception that immigrants, they just want to come here, earn some money and go back to where they came from. But my parents were desperate to be British. My dad, he was called Mohammed. He used to call himself Bob.

My mother was Sarwat. She used to call herself Sharon. And John and Helen, who live next door, they got very confused. And so we abbreviated their names to Iqbal and Praveen because we didn't want them to feel left out. So it was all very bizarre in Birmingham. And my mother, you know, Asian people of that generation were obsessed with the royal family. My mother wanted to be Princess Diana. I remember her going to the hairdressers and asking for a Princess Diana haircut.

Oh, please make me look Princess Diana. I remember her going to the hairdressers and asking for a Princess Diana haircut. Oh, please make me look like Diana. I mean, honestly, these women were so polite. They said, OK, we'll do our best. And then she had this, Diana had this green and white spotty dress. My mother had a shalwar kameez made in green and white spotty material. Oh, I love that. Because she wanted to be Diana. And she used to say, oh, my, you know, my life is like Diana. You know, I married a man. I had an arranged marriage to a man. I don't think he loved me. I think he loved someone else. And it was like she thought that she was Diana.

And my dad was Philip, you know, Prince Philip. And then there was another woman, Camilla, in the background somewhere. So they were desperate to be British. They wanted their children to be successful. And they wanted us obviously to be a doctor, marry a doctor, have some little doctors. You know, I mean, that was the only option when you were growing up, you were a doctor or lawyer or a doctor. And for me to say I wanted to be a stand up comedian, this was just not the done thing. And I didn't really know that that's what I wanted to be when I was growing up.

But the bizarre thing was, I think it's all their fault because we always had comedy on in the house. And when we were growing up, my mum absolutely loved Larry Grayson, Frankie Howard, John Inman, all the gay ones. But she didn't know they were gay. She just used to say, I really like these men. These men, they talk nice. They treat women well. I love them. So we always had these gay comedians on TV. And I grew up subconsciously with these gay men in the background. And I didn't realise this till years later, when I started performing comedy. And

I thought, well, this is obviously been in my subconscious. And it's my mum's fault, because she always had these men on the TV. And I just think that the comedy got into my blood, but I didn't know it till years later. Well, thank goodness you took that turn. You're going to stay with us because we're going to chat about imposter syndrome shortly. But. Well, thank goodness you took that turn. You're going to stay with us because we're going to chat about imposter syndrome shortly. But for now, thank you so much, Zassia. Thank you. Thank you.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con,

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Thank you. Now on Christmas Day we had a programme devoted to the seasonal theme of comfort what it is, why we crave it and the myriad of ways we find comfort it was co-presented by Nuala McGovern and Anita Rani

they also discussed the flip side the importance of getting outside of your comfort zone with guests, including the food critic Grace Dent and the organisational psychologist Fiona Murden. Here's Nuala. Why do we push ourselves out of our comfort zones, Fiona? Or should we? So when I'm working with leaders, that's the state they often choose to be in. They want to do that. But everyday people don't necessarily want to because there's this feeling of let's hang on to what we know. And I think women in particular are not as good at pushing ourselves out. The reason why, A, we should is because a fundamental part of being human is a need to grow and a need to not become stagnant. And by staying within our comfort zone, we're not experiencing new things.

We're not learning new things and we're not actually fulfilling our potential. And that doesn't mean we have to become a leader of an organisation. It doesn't mean we have to do something incredible. It doesn't mean we have to write a book. But it does mean that what do we want to achieve? And are we pushing ourselves in any way to get there? Nuala, what have you done this year that's pushed you out of your comfort zone? before we came in and I am a commitment phobe. I do not like committing to meetings, right? My nickname is lastminute.com. Me too. Me three. That's so weird. I know. And this year, I have actually committed to some things weeks or even months in advance. And it makes me quite uncomfortable when I see a full schedule of when there won't be wiggle room

or that I'm kind of hemmed in, in a way. It's funny on the flip side, I have said no to a lot more things this year at the same time as making these commitments. So, but that, this is huge for me to actually be able to make a commitment. It took my husband seven years to get me down the aisle. I'll give you an idea that I'm never one that's in a hurry to go to that next level of commitment.

But Grace, I'm going to throw it back over to you. Oh, no, no, no. Keep talking. Not a chance. You are a great woman for throwing yourself out of your comfort zone. Tell us about it and why. Because when I was reading about this, I'm just fascinated by you because you're doing things.

I think that might be kind of my ultimate. It's the word stupid that you're looking for. You're looking for the word stupid things. No, no, no. I am. I'm in awe of you. And I tip my hat, my Christmas hat to you.

I just want to let people know you've done I'm a Celebrity. I'm a Celebrity is a big one. That is really stepping out. Well, I turned 50. My parents had both just died. I went through a point of looking after them for a long time. It's very long drawn out how we care as women often we end up caring. And I think I was offered it and I thought thought when will I ever of my own volition you know crawl off the side of a skyscraper and go over you know go down a flagpole when will I ever lock myself in a box and let them fill it up too with bugs and cockroaches I know I will never

ever do that I mean I've got to say do not recommend TripAdvisor one star like do not go but I would never. And I thought, look, let's just go and do it. You know, it's funny that we're speaking to Dipnam because she's linked to another part of my life. I have to go and eat by myself all the time. And when I started being a restaurant critic, I would go. I'd bend over backwards to bring people with me to fit around the schedules. And now I just sit there and I think, I have to go to this restaurant.

And I went to Diffner's restaurant by myself. I remember getting up and thinking, I have to travel to another city. I have to walk in. And I think, you know, this is so out of women's comfort zones. Often they can't do it. I like to push myself because I know that now I'm past 50 and I can see, and I'm not being morbid, I can see the home straight, right?

And I've got to do this now. I've got to, you know. It's now or never. Because you are in your prime. And I've got to say when you, exactly. And I've got to say when you do these things, the thrill, the high is better than anything that you could get in a bottle. It's incredible.

Do you know what? You're making me feel like I want to go back because I used to always push myself massively out of my comfort zone. In what way, Fiona? I sang in a band at university because I was scared of standing up in front of people. I travel around the world on my own because it scared me witless. I've written two books but there have been a lot of things I've started my own business I've moved to a different country

um but I don't feel I do it as much anymore and so I can sit here and say what I would advise leaders what I would advise other people but I that was more when I was a bit younger but now is when you need it. Just do it now. You're inspiring me. That's the point. It's when everybody's looking at you thinking that you should just be in the house in a nice cardi. Yeah. Wear the dress.

Put on the sparkles. Wear the dress. Put the sparkly dress on. All those things you're saving for best. Just get them out of the cupboard. Absolutely. Put them on there and just whatever it is, get out of your own way. Yeah, Anita Rani and Nuala McGovern there talking to Fiona Murden and Grace Dent.

And you can hear that whole Christmas Day special on Comfort. Just go to BBC Sounds even and find Woman's Hour for the 25th of December. Now, just to go back to our discussion earlier in the programme on Dutch surnames, we have received a response from the Dutch government. A spokesperson said the Dutch government has no response to the case presented by the Bureau Clara Wichman concerning discrimination through double consent. The Dutch parliament has asked questions about this case that have to be answered first. These answers will be given in the first weeks of the new year. Now, do you beat yourself up after making a mistake? I certainly do.

You might be aware of that rather self-critical voice that follows you around at work and in your social life. Now, data shows that at least 70% of us will experience imposter syndrome. And recently, a systematic review published in the journal Current Research in Behavioural Sciences found that women consistently score higher on measures of imposter syndrome, and that the gender difference was significantly smaller in Asia compared with in Europe and North America. Now, some big names from the world of sport, business and arts have been speaking about their experiences of self-doubt for a BBC News series called Imposter Syndrome. It's available on iPlayer. And in the latest episode released today, Sir Richard Branson discusses his experiences of self-doubt despite

his successes. Well, to explore this further, I'm joined in the studio by therapist Julia Bueno, author of the book Everyone's a Critic. Thanks very much, Julia, for coming in. Thank you for having me. Can you just describe what is imposter syndrome? Well, imposter syndrome, as I understand it, is an iteration or a version of a self-critical part. And I'm very interested in my work to explore a self-critical part more generally within us so it can play out in lots of different ways. Imposter syndrome tends to people, people tend to talk about it in work settings that they feel that they're kind of a fraud, despite the evidence that proves that they're a great success.

There's a very profound feeling inside that I'm not good enough or I'm going to be, I'm winging it or I'm going to be found out. But where I come in, what I'm quite interested by is that in my experience, it doesn't tend to just happen in the workplace. You don't have an imposter syndrome and leave the workplace and go home and feel great about yourself. It tends to be because there is a part of us that is very self, we use the expression self-doubting, but self-critical. And I believe that we don't come into the world as a baby

sort of born of the world thinking oh my my whale is really ugly or my thighs are too fat for this nappy you know we grow up and internalize lots of messages coming at us from lots of different sources to internalize reasons as to why we feel we're just not good enough so in the conversations i have with my clients and what my book is about everyone's a critic i have some um fictionalized case studies where i explore all the myriad reasons as to why we might have internalized those messages because there are lots um but you know as i say it's not necessarily just in the workplace it usually kind of leaks out in other places. And curiously, quite often I find that people might feel quite impostery outside of work,

but actually in the workplace they might feel a bit better. Quite often I talk to people who feel that in the workplace they have more confidence because there's a protocol to follow or there's a role to play or they know the rules. But outside the workplace it's much more exposing and their personalities involved well it it's certainly something that's that's um prompted an awful lot of comments um we've yeah we've heard from from lots of people on our um social media messaging in um i'm just i'm just going to read one of them here says i'm a 56 year old woman in her final year of a nursing degree, total imposter syndrome, and off to India on my own for the whole of February

on an overseas placement, nursing in clinics, pushing me out of my comfort zone. But this is how we grow. And I know when I return from my trip, I'll go, wow, that was amazing. That is interesting, isn't it? That maybe feeling a bit of imposter syndrome, but then going on from it and accomplishing something can help it. Is that something that happens? Well, it can happen. I suppose it just depends on how you respond to your self-criticism. Because, of course, we all need a bit of self-criticism, certainly speaking for myself, that I need to correct myself and tell myself off occasionally but that's about self

correction rather than self-criticism so I've learned how to do it in a kind of positive way that I can grow from and maybe go and apologize to somebody but if we if it tips into such kind of paralyzing self-recrimination I'm such a bad person then that's not so helpful at all so I guess this lady's hoping that, you know, she's optimistic that she's going to come back from India having kind of grown out of it. But sometimes it can be really debilitating. If we're bashing ourselves up so much, we can't, we're paralysed. Shazia, is this something that you've experienced ever? No, I think I'm fantastic. A critic never affects me at all. I do. It's true. I mean, I start off well, like I get up, I'm going

to a job or whatever, I'm doing something on TV. And I think, you know what, I'm really good. I'm really good. I've worked at this for years. I've really honed my craft. I've done some terrible gigs. I'm really good. I've been in some awful situations and I've overcome them. I'm good at this. And then I arrive at the job and afterwards I get criticism, maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was. And that's when it really affects me, when I believe the criticism. Instead of the voice of the critic is louder than my own positive voice. That's when it really affects me. And it used to affect me a lot in the beginning when I became a stand-up and I used to get a lot of criticism. Now it doesn't affect me as much because I probably,

maybe I believe in myself more or I've overcome a lot of things and I know I'm good. But occasionally, sometimes it still does affect me when somebody writes something bad about me, when I read something on social media about myself, I think maybe I'm not as great as I thought I was that's coming back Julia to what you're saying that when we're babies we don't have this kind of feeling but it's all the outside things that can make us feel this way yeah and there's there's a sort of endless list of sources that can contribute to that um and I obviously couldn't write about every single one of them. We're in Women's Hour and you started off about the data about women, but that's one source I do explore.

Women are socialised to be caregivers and to look after each other and to put our needs below others. That can feed into not feeling good enough. I just want to bring in this other comment here. This person says, as a head teacher, I never felt I was as good as people thought and was sure Ofsted would find me out, she says. Just before the inspection, a therapist I met asked me, so are you just pretending to be good at your job? When I said yes her answer was well just keep pretending it seems to work best short-term advice ever. I know how she feels

I felt the same when Ofsted came to visit me I always thought my god they're going to catch me out now they're going to catch me I always felt like because Ofsted give you that feeling also that you're they're looking to criticize they're looking for you to go wrong and I was always scared um and I was worried like oh my god what are they going to find out about me it is that thing of um I think you use this expression Julia winging it you know and that I definitely have that I feel you know I do I feel the same someone's going to find me out I'm winging it um but in some ways I feel have that. I feel, you know, I do. I feel the same. Someone's going to find me out. I'm winging it.

But in some ways, I feel like that can actually make me better at my job because I'm thinking, oh, I've got to do well. I've got to perform, you know. Well, yeah, I think this is a grey area because I agree with that therapist, her advice that in the short term, you know, self-criticism and imposter syndrome can work on the short term but long term it's very corrosive and then there's a lot you know it can burn us out and can make us quite depressed and anxious so as a sort of yeah a short-term tactic I wouldn't advise it. But does that work fake it till you make it? I think fake it to I think it can work if you're doing it in tandem with the kind of deeper work that I'm interested about, which is getting to the source of your self-critic and understanding why we've internalized these messages in the first place.

We have to be very curious about that because, as I say, we didn't just decide one day to beat ourselves up. But if we explore as to why that has happened, that can then help us do some other work around responding to it differently and making a kind of long term deal with it to not get in the way. The faking it to make it is a sort of short term tactic. We could talk about this for so long.'s very interesting subject and yeah the debate certainly continues on our social media for now i'll have to leave it there thank you so much to julia and thank you thank you thank you we have got lots of comments i'm just going to read uh one more here this person says i watched a ted talk by amy cuddy whose point was fake it until you make it we've

just been talking about that in my experience as a trainer delivering courses on a daily basis, that's true. You can't fake the content or your expertise, but what you have to fake is the confidence. Do it enough times and you become better at it. Now, did you get new socks for Christmas or are you still wandering around with a toe or two poking through your old ones well I'm asking this for a reason because socks are the central focus of a new exhibition at the Now Gallery in Greenwich it's called Socks the Art of Care and Repair and it's an exhibition from the artist Celia Pym who is focusing on the importance of caring for and mending your clothes. And Celia joins me now in the studio in a beautifully made, crafted by yourself jumper. It's lovely to see you, Celia.

Can you just start by telling me about this exhibition? Where the idea came from to do an exhibition of socks? Sure. It's lovely to be here. Thanks for having me. I love socks. Okay. There's a pair at the V&A Museum that is a Coptic that are 2000 years old. And I look at them and I think, we've been wearing socks for 2000 years, which just collapses time. It's so human to clothe ourselves. Excuse me. So my own practice, my own work is about mending and repairing clothes this active small acts of care I often describe it as you get a small hole in a piece of clothing you take a

little bit of time to mend it and the thing is back in circulation more perfect because of its imperfection and this layer of repair I also feel really strongly that craft education needs to be taught in primary schools. So when I got the Fashion Commission from Now Gallery, I thought socks, mending, craft, teaching. And I was like, I want to teach a whole primary school how to darn socks. I had this vision, actually, of a gallery just full of socks and that they would make a really big impact. So over 2024, I taught the whole school, every child at the school, how to do a woven darn. And they were amazing. And they practiced their darns on warehouse waste socks. And the vision was really to say, craft can give you a

sense of purpose. Working with your hands can give you a sense of purpose. Feeling like you can repair something makes you feel resourceful. I can do this. If something's broken, it's not the end of the world. I can put it back together again. So the main centre of the show is this wall of socks mended and made by the kids from Surrey. Big shout out to Surrey Square Primary School who were amazing. Is it hard to dance?

So that's a great, what was so inspiring about working with these kids? Is it hard? I don't think it's hard, but I've been sewing, I'm 46 years old and I've been sewing since I was a kid. So it's so embedded in my fingers. I think it's really, I think it's interesting hearing about the self-critic and the imposter syndrome. When I teach people to darn or knit, a lot of the time they are extremely self-critical. I'm not doing it right. And I think part of what I was trying to communicate in this show and in this project and what kids do brilliantly is they just go for it they don't say

am I doing it right am I doing it wrong and often the hole would be mended that they've made that they've made in their sock but they wouldn't it might not look like what I think a darn looks like so what you'll see particularly when we went into nursery three-year-olds at first the nursery teacher was like you've got to come into us nobody ever includes us in the projects it's always for the older kids I was like yeah let me at the three-year-old and they they just went for it and their socks are stitched together in this creative unselfconscious way so the skill yes if you want to practice and practice and practice the skill will develop but the reason I've called it the art of care and repair is because I think your creative impulses if you can trust yourself to have a go they are the perfect responses but it is about trusting

yourself with a needle and thread and isn't it lovely when somebody does repair something for you it just shows a true element of care doesn't it yeah I think it can be very moving I mean I often talk about clothing as a like a second skin you're wearing it it's you know when you look good you know that you feel you look good in something and when it's got a little hole in it or it's a bit damaged you can be incredibly disappointed and what I do a lot of time is I am mending for others and it's this kind of demonstrate this practical demonstration of care and I think that sometimes solving something practically marking it in a stitch is a visible way of a demonstration of I want to look after this thing for you so yes I think there's a really nice exchange sometimes

or it could be for yourself my socks I'm wearing today I wore them specially are very heavily mended they're my one of my favorite pairs of socks I've had them for about 10 10 years we need to get a picture of that on we'll put it on our social media. Okay, I'll definitely take my shoes off and let you photograph my foot. Yeah, I think there are layers to this work. And one of them is about this question of caring for yourself, for others, through caring for your clothes. And by extension, you know, the other thing we were talking about a lot with the kids is if you've mended your socks, you're not throwing them away, which reduces waste, which reduces the burden that the clothing industry and our excessive waste has on the planet. So it's this sort of, what do you call it, waves of care spreading out.

So when people are coming to the exhibition, then what are hoping they they get out of it and take away from it? Well I hope they smile when you walk in there literally is this wall of 488 coloured socks with the most amazing stitches by kids and the colour is really hits you hard and colour is very emotional to me so I hope that you smile when you come in and then you come round the corner and there's a piece of work I've made called My Friends and Family Socks where I have mended 32 pairs of socks belonging to my friends and family. I was thinking a bit about portraits. So that wall is like a portrait of me.

The kids' socks are a portrait of the school and their community. And then we have a dining area. So you can come in and you can have a practice. On Wednesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. Not this Saturday, I'm sorry, but from next week, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday, we have people in to support you with your stitching. So if you want to learn how to darn,

you can come in and you can have a hands-on experience. It sounds lovely. Thank you so much for your company here on Women's Hour. And you can join Anita for Weekend Women's Hour tomorrow. Thanks for listening. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. How can a celebration of death reframe how we think about losing our loved ones?

What can bridges made from tree roots teach us about the future we build for our descendants? And how can a broken object help us with mindfulness when things fall apart? I'm Jack Boswell, and in Something to Declare from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to take you around the world to explore how ancient wisdom and practices from other cultures can help us understand and maybe even improve our lives. I'll be learning about the Mexican Day of the Dead, the Japanese tradition of Kintsugi, South African Ubuntu philosophy, and many more. Don't miss Something to Declare from BBC Radio 4,

available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.