Woman's Hour - Sheila Rowbotham; Sikh Women's Aid; Stella Creasy; HOGO; Motherhood & elite sport

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

Yesterday Sikh Women’s Aid launched a report into domestic abuse and child sexual abuse within the Sikh community. Conducted via anonymous surveys sent out over the summer, the survey of nearly 700 respondents showed that 70% had experienced domestic violence and 35% had experienced child sexual abuse or exploitation. To tell us more about this report and what can be done to help the issue, we're joined by the co-founder of Sikh Women's Aid and co-author of the report, Sahdaish Pall. Writer and historian Sheila Rowbotham helped start the Women's Liberation Movement in Britain. She organised and spoke at its first conference at Ruskin College, Oxford, she went on to encourage night cleaners to unionize and she wrote many ground breaking boojavascript:void(0)ks, including Women, Resistance and Revolution, Woman's Consciousness, Man's World and Hidden from History. This all happened in the 1970s and Sheila writes about it in her second and latest memoir, 'Daring to Hope: My life in the 1970s'. She joins Emma to discuss the many momentous feminist events of that decade.We used to have YOLO, then FOMO, now we have HOGO. Post lockdown, the fear of missing out no longer plagues us. We have become too comfortable sitting on our sofas watching TV. The effort of putting good clothes on and leaving the house is too much. This hassle of going out (HOGO) has been blamed by the hospitality industry for an increase in the number of no-shows at restaurants and paid-for live events. We talk to psychotherapist and author of Happy Relationships: At Home, Work and Play, Lucy Beresford and actor Sadie Clark whose play, Algorithms, is on at Soho Theatre in December.Motherhood and elite sport has felt like a taboo topic for many athletes in the past. Now official pregnancy guidance for Olympic and Paralympic athletes and sport governing bodies has been introduced for the first time by UK Sport. To discuss why this has been introduced now and how it will impact elite sportswomen, Emma is joined by five-time Olympic archer Naomi Folkard who contributed to UK Sport’s consultation for the guidance and The Telegraph’s Women’s Sport reporter Molly McElwee.The judgment on the SEISS discrimination verdict appeal is expected today at 10.30am. It follows a claim by the campaign group Pregnant Then Screwed of indirect discrimination due to the way the Self Employed Income Support Scheme was calculated. Introduced in spring 2020 to give financial help to self-employed workers affected by the COVID-19 pandemic, the group argued SEISS was unlawful because it disproportionately affected women who had not worked because of their pregnancy and childbirth.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Sahdaish Pall Interviewed Guest: Sheila Rowbotham Interviewed Guest: Stella Creasy Interviewed Guest: Lucy Beresford Interviewed Guest: Sadie Clark Interviewed Guest: Naomi Folkard Interviewed Guest: Molly McElwee Interviewed Guest: Jolie Brearley Photographer: Sally Fraser

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. We still live in a world created and designed by and for men. Nowhere is this clearer than when it comes to maternity policies or lack thereof. And even when things have improved, there are still gaps. Today, you will hear how finally the world of elite sport may be catching up on that front.

But you're also going to hear from a Labour MP you just heard her mention in the news, Stella Creasy, who's angry about not being able to take her three-month-old into her place of work. And of course, there are many other examples of a male-designed world, but perhaps this area is the starkest. Somebody to whom these challenges will sound all too familiar

is the feminist campaigner Sheila Rowbotham, who was at the vanguard of the women's liberation movement in this country in the 1970s. She's also on the programme today. But what or who turned you on to women's rights? That's if you care about them at all, of course, but I'm willing to guess a fair few of you do, especially if you're joining us here on Women's Hour. Who turned you on to feminism? Or perhaps that's not the word you prefer, but who got you into thinking about how women's rights work or don't? Who turned you on to it or who turned you off? That's a whole other story, perhaps. I'm in the market for both today. You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Do check for those costs

on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. Also on today's programme, do you have HOGO? No, not a new kind of disease or virus, but a social status, I assure you. It stands for the hassle of going out. Post-lockdown, the love of making plans, if you indeed felt that or were able to, I'm very mindful of people who are still not able to resume regular life, as it were, because of the pandemic, which is far from over in many ways.

But if you did feel once lockdown certainly was lifted in the main, now maybe that love of going out seems to have faded for some, and HOGO is what we have in its place. Now, maybe that love of going out seems to have faded for some and HOGO is what we have in its place. How about you? Let me know if you're suffering a serious case of it. To remind you, HOGO, H-G-O-G, I'm trying to not spell that right. I might H-O-G-O, excuse me, hassle of going out. Sarah has already got in on this with us on email. Thank you for that. Good morning. My 27 year old daughter says she has JOMO. It's the joy of missing out. There are many more of these things and we'll try and get across them. So do get in touch. Let me know your take on this and also

what or who perhaps turned you on to women's rights. Very much want to hear those stories and those people who have influenced you. But first of first. Yesterday, Seek Women's Aid, the UK's only frontline service for Sikh women, released a new report about domestic abuse and child sexual abuse within the Sikh community. It is the first comprehensive review of this issue in the community, which is over 430,000 strong in Britain. It was conducted anonymously via anonymous surveys sent out over the summer, and the survey of nearly 700 respondents showed that 70% had experienced domestic violence and other details that we'll get into shortly. But to tell us more, I'm going to be speaking to in a moment the co-founder of Seek Women's Aid and co-author of the report, Shudesh Pal. But first, we're going to hear from a woman who we're calling Rani,

who has experienced domestic abuse. Here is her story, voiced up by one of our producers. It started after I had my first child. It was a physical attack. I went to the police, it went to court, and he was cautioned. And then he changed tactics. It became mental, verbal, derogatory. I was blind to it because you didn't realise this is also abuse. He tried to stop me from going to work. He didn't like me going to visit my family or friends. Anything I wanted to do, there were always barriers. Then it got worse and worse as his family intervened.

I was constantly put down in front of my kids. Mind games, lies. You're fighting to live, you're fighting to be yourself. wondering, what will he say to this? What will he do if I do this? At first I told my mum, but there's a generational thinking, especially in the Asian community, because they experienced the same, and it was the norm back then. Their response is, oh men do that, but he'll change over time. And probably their parents said that to them too, because they had to sit there and take it. They had no choice. So you're conditioned to think it's something that you have to tolerate. The impact of this on men can go both ways. Some men will see their mothers or sisters go through it and they will never do the same to their partner. Others will think it's normal behavior.

I'm the alpha male. You're under my foot. I have the power and control. And they see you tolerating their abuse as weakness, which reinforces this power. It is all about power and control at the end of the day. That's a woman that we are calling Rani. And now I can talk to the co-founder of Seek Women's Aid, Sadiq Powell. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for coming on the programme today and talking to us about the findings of this survey. Before we get into more detail, what was the motivation to carry this out?

So Seek Women's Aid actually launched its organisation only six months ago. So we're a newly formed organisation. But our work that we've been doing on a voluntary basis spans many, many years. I've been working in the sector for 26 years. And during COVID, we were inundated with calls coming through from people asking for help, asking for guidance. And part of the survey, which identified the multiple perpetrators

in the home. We believe that that was part of the reason why people had had enough and they were reaching out. And so when we launched, initially it wasn't to write a report. The survey wasn't carried out for that reason. We carried it out because we wanted to ensure that our services were fit for purpose and to help set up our business over the next few years and so we wanted to engage with the community and consult with them and also when you apply for funding that's what funders want to to understand and commissioners want to hear about is how have you engaged the community and how have you evidenced that there's this need for this service. So that was the initial reason for us carrying out the survey.

But we were so inundated with the number of responses. And then as we started doing, looking at the interim findings, we got to 500 respondents. We thought, you know, we really need to pull this information together and to share it with other people, whether that's the community, whether that's commissioners, with partners, you know, working in public health and so on, because people need to hear about these issues and concerns. Because when we looked for research ourselves, there was very little out there. What struck you about the findings? So it's a really interesting question, because I've done this work for such a long time and I know what's happening. I know what my community, you know, we are a fantastic community.

We do so much for, you know, generally across the board. You know, we provide so much selfless service. We volunteer so much. You know, we have integrated so well in the UK. And, you know, when you look at research around the Sikh community, you know, we are a very forward thinking, you know, a very developed community. But coming from this, I think part of the reason why women don't report is these issues you know they feel they're not going to be believed and so for me and also if i've just may i was going to say is there also that pressure because you just made that point to come in yes to not bring shame on the community and make the community look bad it's it's about a it's about a belief system so you know people see us as being

in a certain way and and and you know will people believe us but also we culturally although you know the the faith itself is that it's a very very progressive faith you know it's about equality i always say the founder of Sikhism um the um Grunanak he was like for me was the first feminist he talked against oppression um he condemned oppression against women and he talked about equality between men and women. But there's the cultural aspect that hasn't disappeared. And that has come through with people emigrating to the UK. And so oppression is still happening. And, you know, in the survey, we asked about incidents. So we asked about know domestic abuse and sexual abuse but what our in our um in our report what we talk about is gender-based violence this is not just about incidents that happen as you get older as children or as adults this abuse and oppression

starts actually much earlier than that and um and and this is from birth you know girls are seen as lesser their lesser value as they grow up as lesser, they're lesser value. As they grow up, they are taught they are lesser than their brothers. And therefore, when abuse takes place, by that time, it's almost been normalised. And therefore, if something is normal in your community, you're not going to see it as an issue. Therefore, you're not going to report it. People feel odd, people feel awkward. They may suffer from anxiety anxiety but they may not even understand why they're feeling like that and if they approach somebody and they talk to someone

about it like a family member um parents or in-laws they're told to be quiet and to put up with it because actually their older generation went through worse and therefore it's not that bad for the younger generation therefore they shouldn't be moaning about it and the cycle keeps going in that way exactly you've also spoken about in you know the only six months that you've been officially going i recognize you've been doing the work for longer but i think people will find that uh striking that the seek women's aid organization's only been going six months. You've said that of the South Asian community, Sikh women are the least likely to come forward about abuse.

What do you put that particularity down to? So, again, this is anecdotal for me because this is a statement that I made because having worked in this environment for such a long time, this is what I saw. And I knew this was happening, but women were not seeking help. And I think it is that. It's partly down to the normalization of abuse that's taking place um in the home I think that it's um partly to do with women being frightened and scared not being able to reach out and when you come from a um a community which is um quite wealthy in some cases

you know when you look at the British Sikh report, which talks about, you know, the Sikh community paying the most taxes proportionately, we donate more proportionately, we're more likely to own our homes. And so we're seen as this progressive community. When you're breaking away from that, if you want to challenge that community,

that family that you're coming from, often women feel that they're not going to be left with anything. So when you're leaving and pulling your children out of, you know, great homes, schools, et cetera, there's a level of guilt that women feel as well. And a lot of the women that we've worked with have also been women who've come from abroad. They've come here to the UK.

They've, you know, married into British citizens. And, you know, they don't know the law in this country. They don't know who to contact, and so on. What's been the response in the community? Because obviously, as you say, a great number came forward, but it's still a very small proportion. Have you had any response in the 24 hours since it's been out? And also, have any men spoken to you about this? We've had overwhelming support to the report. And, you know, we had a huge number of men at the conference yesterday, and actually on social media as well. We've had so many people supporting us and this is the conference where you launched this launched this yeah we launched the report

yesterday um at a at a conference and um um we've had overwhelming support from all sectors across the board from all different communities and people from our own community people supported us with the with the report, the report writing, because we're not report writers. And we didn't originally set out to write the report. So we had a lot of support from people from our own community. But there are small pockets of people who are not happy that we've done doing this piece of work,

but it's a very very small minority um and um so it's been really welcome and actually people even on social media have revealed now they've seen this report or they've heard about this report some people attended victims attended our conference yesterday and it's given them the courage to speak up yes which which often these things do don't they it kind of spreads in that way. And, you know, in terms of the report, I should just say, in case anyone thinks I was making a presumption, the majority of the victims are women. Yes, that's correct. Yeah. So we did a breakdown. So there was 14% males. It's still significant with domestic abuse, that is,

but still predominantly female victims are the ones that you are hearing from. But as you say, 14% we must also make note of. Just finally, what are you hoping to do to support those who are able to come forward and do want support? Yeah, so we currently have a helpline and people are contacting us through there or through our website. We have managed to secure small pots of money so we are now in the process of recruiting to um support a part-time support worker and a volunteer

coordinator and actually our time is voluntary as well people who are working within the organization at the moment so i had three calls if i tell you three calls last night following the conference of people who needed help um and so people are reaching out and we're doing what we can to help them. If they're local, we can support them one to one. If they're further afield, then we're referring them to the correct agencies local to them. Where are you based? We're in the West Midlands. West Midlands, OK.

Well, we'll share links on the Women's Hour website to seek women's aid. Sadiqa Powell, thank you very much. The co-founder and co-author of that report and co-founder of Seek Women's Hour website to seek women's aid. Sadiq Pal, thank you very much. The co-founder and co-author of that report and co-founder of Seek Women's Aid, the first of its kind. And as I say, we will share links to those organisations or support services that we were just mentioning. Thank you. So many of you are getting in touch with stories of who or what perhaps turned you on to women's rights, turned you on to feminism, if you call it that. If you don't, I'm sure you'll also tell me why you don't. Or if you think you should, you'll also tell me that. You do not hold back, for which I am grateful. Jill has emailed to say, it was Betty Friedan. I was studying in New Hampshire in America for a

semester of my degree, and I was introduced to her book, The Feminine Mystique. It may be a bit dated, but at the age of 20, I devoured it. It opened my eyes to an enormous scope of inequalities women endured, many of which pervade today, and just how deeply the patriarchy is structured against women. Another one here on email says, becoming a mother connected me more deeply to women's rights and shone a light on the inherited and inherent impression of them that I'd grown up with, the impression of women. My friend through motherhood has helped me give voice to these thoughts and feelings. I didn't grow up with, the impression of women. My friend through motherhood has helped me give voice to these thoughts and feelings. I didn't grow up with anyone who articulated feminism and she, Sophie, has made me feel like I can have a voice.

Another one here, my sister Jane, when she gave me a copy of Spare Rib in the mid-70s. Well, in 1970, Sheila Robotham, my next guest, was 26, a socialist, already a writer, and right there at the beginning of the women's liberation movement in this country. She helped organise and spoke at the first and now famous Women's Liberation Conference at Ruskin College, Oxford,

went on to encourage night cleaners, for instance, to unionise and campaign for equal pay, education, 24-hour nurseries, abortion on demand and many other things. She also wrote groundbreaking books including Women, Resistance and Revolution, Women's Consciousness, Man's World and Hidden from History. And her new memoir centres about this era in terms of the 70s and is called Daring to Hope, My Life in the 1970s. Sheila Robotham, good morning. Good morning, Emma.

I have to say, when we've asked who or what turned people on to the thought of women's rights and campaigning, if they do that or just even thinking about it, Kate has emailed to say, Sheila Robotham. She inspired me with her book Hidden from History when I was a student in the early 80s. So your name's coming up in there as well. And I wonder how that makes you feel today. I'm very pleased that it's still remembered and hasn't got hidden. Well, indeed. I might have made a fortune if I could have put any control over the name of the title.

I think the title became a general saying. Right, and perhaps that would have stood out more. I don't know. But what was it for you, just before we go through some of these stories that you're sharing in this book and also more generally, but what was it for you that turned you on to women's rights and feminism? Oh, that's such a hard question, actually, because I start going back and back and back into thinking, why on earth is it that sometimes people like me who have brought I was brought up in a conservative family without really any interest in challenging the nature of society

or the position of women and yet I started to question my position as a woman in implicit ways. And then when the women's movement began to appear in the 1960s, it resonated and somehow the things that people were saying struck home. And yet I hadn't, and I don't think my friends who later got interested and involved in the women's movement either, had explicitly been able to put an actual name to what our grievances were. Because we had an idea of the early feminists through the suffrage movement, just completely not like us. Yes.

And I think that's a very common thing, that until you actually meet people who were, and we did meet people who'd been involved in the suffrage movement, you have an idea of what previous generations were like, which is nothing like self. And you've got to find a way to connect and then make it relevant for the life you're living at that moment, which does bring us to that first Women's Liberation Conference that I mentioned.

You were one of the organisers. How many people came? What did it feel like? Take us to that. There's a bit of confusion about how many people came. It's between around about 500 and 600 of the figures that are normally given. It was far, far more than we expected because before then there'd just been a few little groups meeting with a network through contact and friendship. And that was the amazing thing to suddenly find all these women turning up out of the blue from all over the country. And you were demanding, I mentioned a few things, equal pay, equal education, and things that people were hoping we wouldn't still maybe be talking about all this time on. No, I was very over-optimistic at the time. I thought, you know, they're going to be granted in no time.

And we need to express many other things, feelings and attitudes to how women's bodies were represented and things like that as well. And they weren't really contained in our demands. So I thought, well, surely we need more than just these demands, but the demands stuck and they became the things which we did mobilise around. And it proved more difficult than we expected. Yes, I mean, even some of the subjects we're discussing on today's programme could have been on the agenda at that conference and were in some ways, but with different characters perhaps. Free 24-hour nurseries didn't go down very well, did it? No, I think the demand came from America in the war

where women had worked shift work and it was very much misunderstood because everyone assumed there were these heartless feminists who wanted to dump their babies in their creches and nurseries for 24 hours and never see them which was completely untrue. But obviously the actually the idea which is still a need today, is around the hours that different people work and having that availability at all hours for the hours you're on shift. I think it's got even harder to combine work in home, actually. In what way? Well, the pressure for people to work such long hours. I mean, if you've got a decent job that's well paid, there's a lot of pressure to spend a lot more time

actually at work doing your work, partly because new technology has penetrated into personal life. Yes, and well, I suppose also if you are even able to keep going with your job sometimes because of the cost of childcare as well. I also, I think we could manage to live, not luxuriously, but, you know, pleasantly on small amounts of money by living communally.

And also there was more social welfare. So it was possible to actually survive without having a full time job. Yes. Well, I was just thinking about some of those liberation conferences because there were eight in the 70s, the last in 78. And I'm going back again to try and learn for today, but also to hear some of those stories. And I know that you shared this. We can also to hear some of those stories. And I know that you've shared this. We can't talk about all of those conferences, but if you could take us to Skegness in 1971, you do write about there being a spot of trouble with some miners and a striptease? There was a decision to go and meet at the miners' place where they had their conferences.

And they were having a conference at the same time as Women's Liberation. And they'd heard on the news about Women's Liberation in all these, it was called Women's Lib on the media and it was very much trivialised. And so they were kind of had their idea of what we were like. And then some, I think a tabloid paper tipped off some women saying they're having a striptease, the miners are having a striptease. So some women invaded the striptease and the miners defended their striptease and a call went out for reinforcements and through the night the miners then who got rather drunk were shouting knicker knockers which might sound rather mysterious but there was a report that Germaine Greer had said that she didn't wear knickers.

And so it was completely weird that people who were watching striptease should be so offended by this, but they thought it was a ludicrous feminist thing. And so they were shouting knicker knockers through the night and then looking very sheepish the next morning because they were hungover. And, of course, later on in the miners' strike, Women's Liberation did support the miners and also women who organized both in the 70s and the 80s. And it was, to me, a normal thing to support the miners. My father had been an electrician in the mines and an engineer. So I assumed I was supporting the miners. So the miners being in conflict with the movement

that I was so involved with was a shock. Yes, I suppose when you have those direct conflicts, it must be quite difficult, but in a way maybe also useful to come face to face with the sort of context and society you're living in and some of those contradictions. I think it's fascinating to look back, and of course you mentioned Germaine Greer there, apart from the conference that we mentioned in 1970,

her book The Female Unit, was published. People will also remember the Miss World protest happened. It's very useful to look back to see where we've got to and fascinating to hear you think it's perhaps got harder in many ways. Sheila Robotham, thank you very much for your time today. The book is called Daring to Hope My Life in the 1970s and many messages coming in off the back of having you on today, Sheila, and also just talking more generally about what got people into perhaps thinking about women's rights in the first place. Not an easy question to perhaps pinpoint for you, Sheila, and it seems the same for many of our listeners. But my next guest is a frequent speaker about such things,

not least within her role professionally, because Labour MP Stella Creasy has spoken out in the last 24 hours saying it has to be possible for politics and parenting to mix after being told she cannot sit in the Commons with her three-month-old son. It was actually after appearing with her son at the adjoining Westminster Hall, so not in the chamber per se, but where some of the debates go on, that she received an email from the private secretary to the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, Dame Eleanor Lang, which said this was not in line with recently published rules on behaviour and courtesies. Stella, what a letter to receive. Good morning. Hi there, Emma.

So you're on maternity leave or not on maternity leave? Because that was also subject to some problems. I don't have any maternity cover and I do a job where I represent 90,000 people. So clearly I'm not on maternity leave because otherwise my constituents wouldn't get heard. And what I was doing yesterday in Parliament was leading a debate about the buy now pay later lenders who are preying on communities like mine. But I also have a 13 week old baby. It's just not feasible to leave him for any length of time because he's breastfeeding. These are not unusual challenges for women, but it's not rocket science why there aren't many women of childbearing age and women with small children in our parliament, because we write rules that mean that

you can't have maternity cover and you can't go and speak in the chamber either. I mean, it's an impossible situation. And I think a lot of women and dads too will hear this and recognise that sensation of thinking that you cannot win whatever you do. I suppose the issue here, you've got a particular issue around the maternity cover. But when I said you were coming on and some people who've been aware of this story and maybe heard it in the news bulletins, some of them don't feel the same as you. And I wanted to put a couple of messages that have come in.

For instance, there's one here saying the selfish attitude of people like Stella Creasy really annoys me. Never mind her right to inflict a squalling baby on other people. What about their rights to be able to work in peace free of the intense irritation of screaming children. The decision to have a child is a serious responsibility. Is it really too much to ask that a mother should prioritise looking after that child over her work for a few months? Another one here, I have two children.

I didn't realise my mother had been emailing into your programme. Yeah, yeah, we're on a hotline to her. There's an email here from Gemma who says, I have two children and personally I wouldn't have brought them into my workspace. So this is a broader theme, I have to say. When I'm at work, I want to give 100 percent of my time to the job I'm being paid to do. Likewise, it's not fair on my children to have attention with me. Compromise, which is the biggest challenge I have with work creeping into my home life.

There has to be some boundaries in the work environment and women and babies. Those rights must be balanced with others' workers' rights. I could go on, but you're getting the gist. Other people in other workplaces do not expect to be able to take their children to work. So let me be very clear. If my baby had been crying, you wouldn't have heard the speech that I was making to try and hold to account what the government

was doing on consumer credit regulation. This is a very, very small baby. And absolutely, in other workplaces, I would have employment rights and I would have maternity cover and there would be somebody else to fulfil that role to make sure those arguments were being made and that we were keeping those campaigns going. As I say, it is a very unusual position because MPs don't have employment rights. But we are the place that makes those employment rights. And if we're not leading the way and saying, actually, how do we balance these things? And A, it's very bad for our politics. This is why I'm part of a campaign called This Mum Votes, along with Pregnant Then Screwed,

to get more mums at the decision making table. You know, it's not by accident during the pandemic that the needs of mothers were completely ignored by the government, to the extent that we saw millions of mums having to struggle with homeworking and... Hang on a minute, we're not going to do, sorry, that's a whole other, excuse me, that's a whole other discussion. There are other ways of pushing back against that, that there are also family structures. I'm not denying people felt like that, but there are also family structures in place, which also meant that women and men, or just women, were left to do that. And some people will not feel that was the government's fault.

But I have invited you. It's the same in politics, Emma. That's my point, is that actually the evidence from the Good Parliament Project shows us that if you are a parent of young children, if you're a dad, you still come forward, you still take part in politics, you still got elected. If you're a mum, you don't.

Women tend to go into politics when their children are much older, or they go into politics without children at all. So I get that, if I may, I get that your bigger point is, and I've seen that your work on that campaign is about getting women who are going to have children or having children to consider politics. But I suppose what I'm trying to say is, what about the idea that when you're speaking, which is again, channeling some of these messages here, of course, there's many people who also support you, I should say. But what about the idea when you were speaking, the baby, yes, has to be breastfed, understood, can't be too separate from you, doesn't need to actually be on your person, because that's not what other people would do at work. I'm going to put that to you from a couple of messages. Well, where then should he be? I mean as I say I made very sure like a lot of parents would do that he was well fed that he was asleep so that

I could contribute and make the points that I think my constituents want me to make about consumer credit regulation. Where was the baby? Because this is about the parliamentary estate I'm looking at the letter where was the baby that was breaking the rules because that's what people also want to imagine. He was in a sling attached to me and I've been into the chamber several times I'm looking at the letter. Where was the baby that was breaking the rules? Because that's what people also want to imagine. He was in a sling attached to me and I've been into the chamber several times. I'm not the first MP to have a small baby and take it into the chamber as well. All of us have managed these situations. Are you allowed to do that?

Well, apparently not. But this is the first time anybody's raised it with me. So they won't give you mat leave cover, but you're not allowed to take the baby into the place of work yeah and my point is these are it's not rocket science why there aren't parents of very small children who are mums in our politics when we create rules like this which are destined for a an era when most mps were frankly men of a certain age with independent means i think people i think people can totally get on board and are with the idea of, you know, there isn't maternity cover for women who have children who happen to be MPs. What I have to say, another message has come in, it's short, saying, sorry, but I totally disagree with Stella Creasy. I went back to teaching after my children. There was not a chance of me taking them into my classroom. I think quite quickly from this message. Better and affordable childcare is the answer,

not this selfish bandstanding. I am a feminist, but Stella, this is madness. And that is her right to think. I'm simply saying I have a 13-week-old baby. He needs to be fed on a very regular basis. So running back and forth between a nursery probably isn't an option. I don't have maternity

cover so in my job there is a choice for my constituents to not be represented and not be heard in parliament for six months because as I say I'm in that very early stage of having given birth or there is parliament working in a way that means that we can open it up to to mothers and I don't see why my constituents should be shortchanged because Parliament doesn't think that MPs need maternity cover. That teacher would quite rightly be entitled to maternity cover and somebody else to do her job to mean that she wouldn't be put in this position in the first place. Congratulations, I should say, on recently becoming a mum. Would you prefer to be on mat leave? Would you prefer not to be taking part in these debates right now? Absolutely. I think my son has been very short changed because obviously he's had to come with me to a lot of boring meetings. Although as somebody pointed out yesterday, that's probably helpful in how we managed to keep him asleep so that he could contribute.

But I also think that there's a wider point here, Emma, about normalising the fact that we have mothers in the workplace. We have to get away from the idea that if you have a child, either it disappears or you disappear because we're missing people in our workplaces accordingly. Stella, if you continue listening, if indeed your mother continues listening this morning, you will hear very shortly how the world of elite sport is perhaps finally catching up with that idea, how to even have the conversation about having a baby. Have you heard back from the Speaker of the House about these rules? Have you heard about what, is there a room you can go to? Are things going to change? I haven't heard,

but it's not about a room. I mean, these are the places, Emma, where my work takes place. No, no, I meant if you're allowed to take, sorry, you misunderstood me. I meant if you're not actually allowed your child on the parliamentary estate, I'm wondering what the response has been if you've pointed this out. I haven't heard back yet. But interestingly, I've heard from a number of male MPs who'd also tried to take their children into meetings because they're trying to do balancing parenting and politics as well. And they were also baffled and confused by this. And other MPs had been told it was okay to have children on the estate. Look, we need to resolve this and we need to make sure that it is possible to be a parent and be part of politics because otherwise we're missing out on talent within our communities,

in our political process. Not because they don't want to be there, but because the system doesn't work for them. If those men want to take children into meetings with them, how old are they? Because that's what I'm trying. The thing that seems to have irked some people is the idea that it's one rule for politicians and another. I mean, you don't even get the rules right now that other people are getting. That's fair to say. But the idea that is one rule for politicians, that they can take their kids into meetings and other people can't. That's what seems to be a bit of a rub with some listeners this morning. Well, you do actually have legal protected rights when it comes to breastfeeding, not to be discriminated.

But you just mentioned men. If you are an employer. You mentioned men. That's the issue here. Sorry, you mentioned men. That was my question. If men are taking their children into meetings, political meetings, male politicians, how old are those kids? Do you think that's right? And do you think that should be extended to other workplaces? I think this is this is the wrong way around of looking at the telescope, Emma.

Surely we want to make sure there are people with family experience in our political process. So actually... Sorry, you don't get to decide... I say this quite... I'm sorry, I don't understand the question that you're asking. Well, I can rephrase it. I can rephrase it.

But what I'm saying is you don't get to decide the questions. I regularly remind politicians of this. And you don't get to frame the debate necessarily. We have talked very clearly about how you think those rules should change, but you just brought up of your own free will, male politicians are taking children into meetings. Okay. Do you think that should be the norm in other workplaces? Yes, I think it should be possible. I mean, my point was simply that this is not I was actually saying, isn't it great? There's a solidarity amongst other parents because forgive me, I did biology and it takes two people to make a baby. The other 50 percent also saying, hang on, this isn't working for us either.

And if our current system, our current political system was constructed for a time when most MPs were men of a certain age with independent means and carers at home. Then if men are saying they want to see this change, that's a good thing. I don't think this is just about politics. I think being able to have a more family friendly workplace is good for everyone. That's why I support the flexible by default campaigns. It's why we're trying to get more of those voices in. But we know right now it disproportionately affects women. I do think there is something specific here about my case, because we are talking about a very small baby and the lack of maternity cover. Which is important to distinguish. And I have to say some messages. I am very supportive of Stella. I was on a district council in the early 2000s. I regularly breastfed my daughter in the chamber during meetings, both formal and informal. Our local councillors were mostly supportive. Another one totally supports Stella. She's right because others have different work. Doesn't mean she shouldn't be breastfeeding in the chamber. Go Stella.

Sorry Emma, I agree with Stella Creasy. She's representing others. She doesn't have maternity rights and Parliament's been dominated by men for such a long time. I think we've covered a couple of areas there and where people I was just keen to stress people had the issue with was not necessarily the breastfeeding baby but the idea of taking children

into meetings. But you've been very clear with what you think on that. And in a moment, we'll be talking to the founder of Pregnant Then Screwed, Jolie Brearley, about a case that she has just been in court with, with the government. Stella Creasy, Labour MP, thank you very much for your time this morning. I did mention right at the beginning of the programme, do you have HOGO? Yes, we've got a few of these social acronyms. HOGO means hassle of going out. That's what a lot of people perhaps are feeling post-lockdown if they have started going out again. Do you remember we used to have YOLO?

You only live once. Then FOMO, fear of missing out. HOGO now has been blamed by the hospitality industry for an increase in the number of no-shows at restaurants and paid-for live events. I'm now joined by the psychotherapist and author of Happy Relationships at Home, Work and Play, Lucy Beresford, and the actor and writer Sadie Clark, whose play Algorithms is on at the Soho Theatre in December. Welcome to you both. Lucy, what do you make of HoGo?

Well, I was suffering a little bit from it myself last week. I was meant to go to a view of some paintings at the National Gallery and there was a part of me thinking firstly can I be bothered to get dressed up get in the car go there and secondly can I be bothered to take all my makeup off at the end of the day and I almost didn't go and it is so tempting because we've had 20 months of getting used to a different kind of socialization we've discovered how amazing our own company might be, but we are very social creatures and we get a lot of positive reinforcement and mood boosting qualities from engaging with other people. So yes, HOGO is something that many of us have

experienced very recently, possibly COVID pandemic induced, but we indulge in that at our peril because actually it's better that we get out there and meet people. Why is it at our peril? Because we're relational creatures. We actually boost our mood and actually gain a lot of positive qualities from engaging with people, having them validate us in some sense, but also just having those different experiences and bringing that different energy into our lives. If you're on your own, loving yourself and having a good relationship with yourself is absolutely fundamental to any other relationship that you have. But once you have developed a good relationship with yourself, the key is to go out there and have great fun with other people, be stimulated by them mentally, physically, to have great experiences.

Because as you said earlier, we only have one life. Yeah, there's a lot of that today and how we're going to live it and what rules we have, all of those things playing into it. Sadie, do you have a good relationship with yourself? Are you suffering from HOGO? I think I do have a good relationship with yourself are you suffering from hogo um i think i do have a good relationship with myself i think my relationship with myself has definitely changed in a lockdown and i'm learning slowly to know what boundaries are i definitely was one of those people that um always like burning the candle at both ends always out pre-coCOVID. And I've certainly, as Lucy has, suffered from some moments of hogo since the world has reopened a little bit.

In what way? Can you give us an example? Well, I'm very indecisive. So often the problem with me is I take a very long time to actually decide whether I'm going to go out or not. Then I'll end up doing something stupid, like forgetting that you have to take a lateral flow test. I'll already be late. And then I'll be like, oh, God, I have to take a lateral flow test as well. I was meant to go to a networking event last week for TV people. And there was a lot of ho-go going on

because it just felt like a lot of effort to do small talk, especially with like people you don't know. So even for a sort of, I don't know if you would describe yourself as an extrovert, but someone who liked going out a lot before, it has kind of seeped in. Yeah, and I actually realised, I think, that I was forcing myself to be an extrovert before.

I think I thought that because I'm on stage a lot, I must be an extrovert. I must like get my energy from other people if I'm going to stand on stage, like making a fool of myself at times. Now, I'm sure entertaining the masses, but that point about the masses, which you will hope I'm sure will be along to your latest programme or your new programme and your new play rather in Soho in December. It's an issue though this is on the Hogo side of things with no shows you know there's a real issue if people are just not turning up to things. How much of a concern is that? Quite a big concern at the moment. I'm like I'm two weeks out from well one and a half weeks out from opening the show and sales are they're like creeping up 20 tickets a day I would say which is actually

pretty good going but there is this fear of like the show sold out before and is it going to do that this time are people just not going to turn up and you think that you've sold out and then you end up with half the audience not present it definitely definitely is a worry and something I'm trying to kind of hold my nerve on and hope that people do want a good night out at the theatre and aren't going to just flake in favour of pyjamas. Yes. No, don't flake. Come on, think about this, everybody. Lucy's told us to get back out there. It's good for us. Lucy, we've got quite a few messages coming in from people

who do say they've got HOGO, especially now in the evenings being dark and cold. Anne says, I've got to force myself out of the house at all. But when I do it, I enjoy it. Yes, there's always that theory of expectation management. Invariably, the event that we're not looking forward to is the one that we end up having a whale of a time. We also have to remember that we are not born actually knowing how to socialise. It's one of the reasons why we're sent off to play school and nursery school is to learn those social skills. So in a way, post-COVID, we are going

to have to relearn some of that, particularly if we start to get a bit anxious or as your listener has identified that maybe some of the winter blues are kicking in as it gets a bit dark and, you know, we want to just cozy up. But if you do get out there, you will have so many more benefits. And also maybe think about, I don't want to pathologize this because I think we're talking about something very different to say social anxiety, which is a really, you know, medical thing. But HOGO is very much more about inertia, losing some of those skills, as Sadie was talking about earlier in terms of networking small talk those skills can be acquired and if all else fails maybe develop a wingman have somebody that you can go to these events with where you can secretly say to each other if we don't really like it we can leave

early oh I love that I love that pact I do that quite regularly with I do have a bit of a wing woman and it's always a great thing and it's also a bit like with me in fitness i don't know anyone else if i don't make an appointment to go with someone to the gym or to a class there's no way i'm going uh so yes good tips there lucy beresford thank you very much sadie clark uh just you know get out there because we've got to come and see you as well right yes please do my show algorithms oh no you can't here we go here we go. Here we go. The big plug. No, but I suppose my point is do it for yourself as well and also get out to support people like yourself back on stage who need the audience.

Sadie, thank you very much for that. Well, I just mentioned before when I was talking to Stella Creasy that I would be talking to the founder and chief executive of the campaign group Pregnant Then Screwed because within the last few minutes there has been a ruling following a claim by the campaign group Pregnant Then Screwed against the government of indirect discrimination due to the way that self-employed income support scheme was calculated during the pandemic. The measure you may remember was introduced in spring 2020 to give financial help to self-employed workers impacted during lockdown.

And Jolie's organisation argued it was unlawful because it disproportionately affected women who had not worked because of their pregnancy and childbirth. They lost that initial case. Jolie was on the programme talking about that. Today was the appeal. Jolie, what's the ruling? Good morning. Good morning, Emma. It's good news. So we took the government to court, as you said, for indirect sex discrimination, and the Court of Appeal has now agreed with us that this was indeed discrimination. And yet, what does that mean in terms of, there was also, I have to bring this up, I believe, but you tell me more, there was also a loss as well within this ruling. Yes. So the court said that there were extenuating circumstances for the government. In other words, that it was working under pressure when it created the scheme. And so technically we didn't win. But more importantly, the ruling clearly stated that this scheme, which was created without any

consideration of the experiences of pregnant women and mothers, indirectly discriminated against those groups of people. And that is a huge win for us because it means policymakers, employers, public bodies have to consider how a decision impacts on mothers with kids. But we also now can ask the government to make things good. And this can be used as a starting off point for other cases as well. So you lost the appeal overall, but almost won the moral argument. Is that a way of putting it? I know that legally that will definitely not be the accurate language, but I'm trying to explain. Yes. So we lost on the justification claim because they had to implement the scheme at such speed, but we won on the discrimination claim. So winning that argument,

will that mean that others can use that as legal precedent in other scenarios, do you think? Yes, they can. It's a really interesting case. And it means that, for example, in cases where women apply for mortgages and they don't get a mortgage because they calculate their last three years of earnings and they're potentially taking a dip in earnings because of maternity leave. There could be cases brought against that now. There could be cases brought against bank loan cases, for example. But there is a much wider application to this in that bodies now have to consider pregnancy and maternity leave. Rishi Sunak stated that maternity

leave is the same as sick leave or taking a sabbatical. And we have proven in a court of law that that is not the case and that this was in fact discrimination. And on that point about the scheme over which you went to court on, so rather than the wider application, because of the loss part of it, does that not mean, does that mean, excuse me, that anyone will receive any back pay or any money owed? No, they won't because of this court ruling. But now that we've proven that this scheme was deeply flawed,

we're asking the government to reimburse the 75,000 women who've been financially hurt by its inadequate planning. You know, we heard from women. How's that going? Well, we've just started. All right. In the last few minutes. Well, Jolie, I know you're a motivated woman.

I thought you'd already have an answer for me. Hopefully, I'll be texting Rishi Sunak now and saying, come on. Do you know what? I'll say as well, and I like to issue open invitations on the programme live. We will try and get somebody on from the government to talk about that part of the ruling, because, you know, jokes aside, if people have been left out of pocket, as you're arguing, there is a case to answer. There absolutely is a case to answer. And, you know, we hope that this not only is about reimbursing those 75,000 women,

but we want to see the government implement proper systems and processes to ensure nothing like this can ever happen again. They have a legal obligation to make laws and policies that work for everybody, not just the people who look like them. And if I may, Emma, because I know we're on limited time, I just want to say a really big thank you to the thousands of women that made this happen because we had hundreds of contributions to our crowdfunder.

We had a legal team that worked pro bono. The unions got behind us. Hundreds of women gave their testimonies. This was a collective action by women who had to advocate for themselves because the government refused to advocate for themselves because the government refused to advocate for them. And personally, as somebody who has experienced pregnancy discrimination, was sacked because I dared to procreate. This is a significant moment for maternity discrimination.

I really think it's a game changer. Jodie Brealey, I don't have a statement from the government, but I am issuing that invitation and we'll see where we get to with that. And I'm sure you'll update us. Of course, some would say, as the court has said, you know, perhaps it wasn't targeted against women, that women were omitted. But perhaps the two end up with the same results. But as I say, that invitation to the government to come and talk. Jodie Brearley, thank you very much. Well, sticking with perhaps getting with the Times, official pregnancy guidance for Olympic and Paralympic athletes and sport governing bodies has been introduced for the very first time by official body UK Sports. Five time Olympic archer and new mum Naomi Folkard, who contributed to the UK Sport Consultation for this guidance, joins me now, as does the Telegraph women's sports reporter Molly McElwee. Naomi, I'll come to you in just a moment. But Molly, what's the upshot of this guidance? What does it mean now?

Yeah, I mean, the main upshot is that it's now a conversation and there is actual guidance in place and kind of a framework for athletes to follow and for the sports to follow when it comes to an Olympian or a Paralympian or an athlete on national lottery funding when they get pregnant. So they can actually refer to a document, refer to proper guidance on what their next step should be,

which didn't really exist before or didn't have to exist before across all of the sports that UK sport overseas. So it's done in a more ad hoc, informal way. And why do you think it's taken this long, Molly? I mean, that's a great question. I think there's so many examples from around the world of sporting bodies who have kind of been ahead of the curve on this, I guess,

and ahead of UK sport. Like there's countless examples, but things like the US Women's National Team has had childcare costs covered for two decades, basically. And it's meant that mothers have played for the national team. I think there's been 10 mothers that played for the national team since that was brought in. That's not something that happens in this country as much. And I think, yeah, in Australia,

it happened in their netball league as well, where they have round the clock, they have kind of full maternity cover as well. But it's taken until now with UK sport. And Naomi, what do you make of this? Good morning. Good morning. I think it's a really welcome document um it's going to help athletes plan for

pregnancy uh well in advance of actually having a baby it's having a baby is a has been a bit of a taboo subject where now hopefully conversations can start with coaches and performance directors well in advance. I was going to say having that conversation, I mean, never mind in advance, but having it when you are actually pregnant is difficult for a lot of women, regardless of the work they're in. But what's it like if you are in the world of elite sport, sport professionally? Absolutely. I was really nervous, but it turned out I didn't need to be. My performance director was really helpful and supportive. And he said, you can absolutely do this. I believe in you. Was that a big relief? Because if you've been nervous, I imagine you've been dreading that conversation.

Absolutely. It was a massive relief. Because, you know, when I first found out I was pregnant, I was, to start with, I didn't believe I could go to Tokyo as well. You know, it would only be five months approximately. Yes, we should say you competed, you know, five-time Olympic archer, competed in the Tokyo Games a few months after giving birth to your daughter. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So I needed that support behind me to make me realise that it was worthwhile training during the pregnancy

and after giving birth to be able to compete in Tokyo. But it's not just about that particular scenario, is it? It's about knowing you've got the rights, actually allowing yourself to go forward with your family life, as I understand it, and also having some pay, you know, having some financial support and making sure you've got some rights on that front. Not necessarily, you know, each scenario is slightly different, but if you don't have a guidance or something written down, people won't know what they're allowed. Absolutely. Yeah, having the financial support as well is a massive weight off your mind. Because for an athlete, financial stability is not there as much as in a normal job anyway.

So to be supported from UK Sport in that way is really important. Do you think female athletes are not having children because they don't think they can with the career as well? Probably. If I had known what I know now 15 years ago, then I could well have had children much earlier in my career. Yeah, yeah. I definitely have been putting it off how's that how does that make you feel that I mean a lot of people can relate to that in

different scenarios but it's probably very acute in your world and I would never change Emily for the world now um but yeah before Emily it made me feel quite emotional and sad I suppose knowing that I'd put it off and actually time's kind of ticking. It kind of put a lot of pressure on me at the same time. Well, perhaps this document will go some way to giving some assurance and reassurance. I hope so. I hope that a lot of athletes are now starting to think, actually, I can think about having children in the same way I might think about

having a dual career by education at the same time as being an athlete. Yes, and picking up some of that financial precariousness and being able to plug gaps and have a life beyond it as well. Thank you very much, Naomi Folkard. All the best to you and to Molly McElwee there from the Telegraph's Women's Sports Department. Many messages have come in throughout the programme. Thank you as always for those. Lucy, we asked right at the start of the programme, what turned you on to women's rights? What made you think perhaps about feminism, if you like to call it that? If you don't, tell me why.

If you do, do. Lucy says, my feminism started when I was 11, aged 11, at the girls stage. Pink for girls, pink for boys, blue division in the Argos toy catalogue. That's what got me on this. I wrote a condemnatory article which was never published. I must have been intolerable, but at least I'm consistent. Donna says two crucial influences in the 70s, Susie Orbach and Germaine Greer, who we mentioned earlier.

Susie Orbach's book, Fat is a Feminist Issue, helped me put my issues with food and body image in my mind, Donna says here, in terms of the influence in context of a sexist and patriarchal society. And I know it helped me take back control and develop a healthy relationship with food and my body. An important nugget that stayed with me from Jermaine Greer's writing, whoever controls the money has the power.

This has stayed with me and financial independence has been key to my outlook ever since. Donna, thanks so much for sharing that. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Harland, a new five-part supernatural thriller

for BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Harland, town of the future. Things happen here sometimes, especially at night. The past does not exist here. Police in Harland have appealed for the public's help with the investigation into the disappearance of local teenager Evie Bennett. It's been concreted over and forgotten. The worst of it is still to come. This is only the beginning.

She's right. It wants to suck me down into the void and destroy me. And not just me, everything. I'm the only one here at night. What if it comes for me next? If you really want to understand something, you have to go right to the edge. What is it? Is it something real?

It's coming towards you. Sarah, it's right there in front of you. Sarah! Harland. Available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.