Woman's Hour - Shirley Ballas, Curtis Pritchard, Sujata Banerjee

Episode Date: September 20, 2019

Strictly’s back! It’s the 17th series and Tess Daly and Claudia Winkleman have rolled out the red carpet for the class of 2019. To celebrate, Woman’s Hour dedicates a programme to dance with Strictly head judge Shirley Ballas, Love Island participant and professional ballroom dancer Curtis Pritchard, Professor of Dance History Theresa Buckland from Roehampton University, Sujata Banerjee, a Kathak artist and educator and Ingrid Mackinnon, a choreographer who teaches jazz, ballet, modern & African dance. Jane asks whether it is ever too late to learn to dance, why dance can make you feel so good… and hosts a dancing lesson, live on air, accompanied by the musician Joe Stilgoe.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Shirley Ballas Interviewed guest: Curtis Pritchard Interviewed guest: Theresa Buckland Interviewed guest: Sujata Banerjee Interviewed guest: Ingrid Mackinnon Interviewed guest: Joe Stilgoe

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Friday, September 20th, 2019. This was a fantastic, if I say so myself, Friday programme about the wonderful thing that is dance. Who dances? What do they dance? Who do they dance with? What are they wearing? Why do we do it at all?

And yes yes it is largely because Strictly is back the televisual delight that lights up our autumnal and winter evenings the only downside is I sit there thinking I haven't got any cranberry sauce and that happens round about the middle of October and I start to panic because it does there is no doubt it heralds the onset of the festive season but we love it anyway in spite of that so my guests this morning were the Strictly head judge Shirley Ballas, a professional ballroom dancer Curtis Pritchard, we had professor of dance history Teresa Buckland from Roehampton University, Sujata Banerjee a CATAC artist and educator and the choreographer Ingrid McKinnon who teaches jazz,

ballet, modern and African dance. And she's currently working with the RSC. And fantastically, we had pianist Joe Stilgo with us as well, who began the programme by really giving us his own version of the Strictly theme. So here we go. And there's additional material at the end. Thank you, Joe. Right, that's Joe Stilgoe, who's our fantastic pianist this morning. This is Woman's Hour. It's Friday morning. We are just celebrating dance. The live Strictly shows are back, 7 o'clock, BBC One tomorrow night.

And what we'd like from you this morning, actually, is just your dancing pictures, your dancing memories. Bung them all our way, please. Social media, at BBC Woman's Hour, on Twitter and Instagram. You can email the programme via the website. I'd like to know how you started to dance, where you've done your dancing. Did you meet your partner at a dance back in the 40s, 50s, last week, whenever it was? Let us know.

And we have a really brilliant line-up of guests this morning on the programme who all want to share their joy of dance and in dance. Shirley Ballas is here, Strictly's head judge. Great to see you, Shirley. Thank you. It's nice to be here. You are the Queen of Wallasey. And now the Queen of Saturday Nights, which is a great place to be, isn't it, actually?

Absolutely. I'm stoked. I can't wait for tomorrow to start. And you're a bit nervous, aren't you? I am, actually, yeah. Always at the beginning of the series, you know, just hoping that everybody can move along and do the right thing and get a good start you know so yeah but I'm nervous too I'm sure everybody is. I got a bit of a tingle when I heard the music there. Did you? Well the plain fact is this is a high point of many people's year you can't underestimate this

it's TV gold the nation genuinely does across, get together on the sofa and watch you strictly on a Saturday night. Well I think by the time we come to August we already know we're running up to Christmas, you know those cold nights where like you said the family, the children boys, girls, mums, dads, grannies and grandpas can all sit round and enjoy this show together, it's a phenomenon

it's just an amazing show. And dance of course is at the heart of it and learning to dance and I've already said to our guest today, I can't dance. It went down like a lead balloon because apparently everybody can dance. Professor of Dance History, Teresa Buckland is from Roehampton University. Teresa, welcome. Thank you for being here. We'll talk to you in a second. Sujata Banerjee is a CATAC artist and educator.

Welcome. And you're going to tell us a little bit about your particular form of dance as well, aren't you? Yes, I will. How closely associated is it to ballroom, if at all? It's dance as much as that. It's a dance and that's the only link? That's the only link I would say to deal with the bodies and move with the rhythm. So there is always a connection. Right. Okay. Also here, Ingrid McKinnon, who's a choreographer. Welcome, Ingrid. Thank you. Currently working with the RSC.

I am, yes. Doing what? I'm working as a movement director for First Encounters Merchant of Venice, which is an adapted version of Merchant of Venice to give young children aged 7 to 13 their first encounter with Shakespeare. Right, so it's a way in for kids.

Yes, yeah. And movement matters. Even in a production like that, I probably wouldn't associate the Merchant of Venice with Shakespeare. Right, so it's a way in for kids. Yes, yeah. And movement matters, even in a production like that. I probably wouldn't associate The Merchant of Venice with movement. Movement matters in all productions. I think having a movement director on majority of theatre productions really adds value to the physical language of any play, which helps tell the physical story as well as the actual written story. Truly, truly valuable. Okay. Well, we'll talk more later in the programme. And we've got Curtis Pritchard here, professional ballroom dancer. I have to say, charming.

You walked in here three minutes ago, Curtis. You've got us all in the palm of your hand. I mean, what is it about you, do you think? First of all, I want to say I feel very privileged to actually be here on a woman's hour, you know, around a table full of lovely young ladies. She says all the right things. Well, no, it's fantastic to be here on a woman's hour, around a table full of lovely young ladies. She says all the right things. Well, no, it's fantastic to be here. Thanks.

My mother's always told me to say that. Mrs Pritchard knows her business. Right, is that the end? No, no, no. So I'm here to talk about dance and everything, and how it's about my life, you know, and dance, how everyone was saying around the table, dance, it's, to me, dance is movement. It's movement to music and it's a way of making your soul, your mind happy, healthy and your body healthy and happy.

It's just expressing your emotions, your freedom, your enjoyment, your love, your sadness, anything through music and putting a smile on people's face. Thank you. You certainly do that this morning. Shirley Ballas there. At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram. Now, Shirley, because you are the head judge, you were taking it. It's a difficult role, this, and it's particularly difficult, I would suggest suggest for a woman to take over that role because you you really I'm not just butchering you up um but when you came to me as a viewer on the sofa you added value because I felt I learned something from your judgments but nevertheless some people

possibly because you're female they're not sure they like that are they well and when I first got the job I mean for somebody of 57 to get that job was amazing I've done no tv whatsoever before but I do know my trade I've been doing it since I was like five years old and I wanted to bring a technical aspect that perhaps the viewers could start to understand a little bit about what we're judging or what I was judging you know I didn't want it all flowery and just oh I love your dress I really to try. And I tried with my hands to express what was a heel and what was a toe, what was inside edge of the foot, what was outside edge of the foot. So I was trying to develop little methods that perhaps the audience could identify with. That's my whole thing is I want to reach those people in the homes and I want them to understand why I have to send somebody home

if you don't vote. And just to generally see things a little bit from the way that I want them to understand why I have to send somebody home if you don't vote. And just to generally see things a little bit from the way that I see them. I do try to balance the technical aspect with the energy and the excitement of performing, because that's all important for me, is how you bring that love of music. Just like Curtis said, you know, that love, that heart. It's all important. It's not just about the technique. At the end of the day really I'm going to say this the technique really doesn't matter you need it it's like a little bit of a

guide but the whole body the whole process of how you're moving is majorly important and did you expect to be to be criticized a little bit I've been criticized all my life so for me it was just the normal thing but your credentials as you say are absolutely impeccable. Thank you. So there was no reason to criticise you, and yet some people... Is it just that some people don't like to be told things by a woman who knows her business, do you think? You know, I don't think it's a woman or a man.

I think we're in a social media era now, you know, Facebook, Twitter. I'm talking about Twitter. Oh, you're on Twitter. You know, people just like to criticise other people. Sometimes it's hard for them to see the good or try to understand. They're already attacking or firing at you before you've

even opened your mouth. I just think it's general in all walks of life, in every job. It's not just this job. It just happens to be a high profile job. There's always chatter around strictly and there's always a degree of controversy. There's a lot of froth surrounding it, which people enjoy, of course. But there's been an interesting discussion about same-sex partnerships coming onto the programme, I think, next series.

I mean, obviously same-sex couples have been dancing together since humans have existed. But will this be a big televisual first as far as you're concerned? Well, I think so. I I mean I danced with a little girl partner all my life up until about 12 and then in our industry, in Curtis and mine industry, we have same sex couples we have two women that dance together

we have two men that dance together and for me when I look at it, I just look at the movement to the music and I look at the expression of two bodies and what they're trying to portray. I don't judge whether it's two men, two women, a man or a woman. If you go on to stage, for example, men have been dancing together since the existence of time and so have women. So what's so different about that in our industry?

So it would be a first. I think it would be very welcoming. And I, for one of them, look forward to seeing how that goes down. Just technically, in terms of choreography, if we're used to seeing women dancing with men, certain things are possible merely because the men tend to be taller and stronger. So isn't there a difference then when you get, say, two women dancing together? No difference at all. Not in terms of what's technically possible? Not at all, because a heel is a heel and a toe is a toe and also i didn't have that tall man i danced with two men that were five foot six so i mean people come in all shapes and sizes and

everybody can dance and like i say we have a guide and a technique book it's a guide not a gospel and it shares with you what kind of foot placements you have to make, heels, toes, so it doesn't really make any difference. At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter, and I should have been prepared for this, but the Morris dancers have been in touch. It's a great way to make fabulous friends, stay fit, have fun and keep your brain active, learning the precision steps required for these dances. Curtis, could your future lie down the line in Morris dancing?

Well, I mean, the future is an unwritten path, which nobody knows. So we'll just have to wait and see on behalf of that. Dancing is my passion. I love it, all styles of dancing. And there is many styles which I have not yet tried. I would love to try. There's the diplomatic service.

Good wait for you as well, actually. This listener says, I teach movement and dance to staff working with the under sixes. Dance is a unifying experience. Music is a language we all speak. To understand your body in the truest form and to express your feelings through movement balances

you. And from Julia, I started ballet again after 20 years of hating aerobics classes and I got my grade 8 earlier this year at the age of 41. Congratulations. Well done. That's fantastic.

That must have been really, really hard work. Talking about strange paths that life leads you down, you met your new partner, Shirley, at Jack and the Beanstalk. I did. Now, you were playing Mother Nature. Well, I got that role and I'd never done any actressing. This shows people out there that you really, truly can do whatever you put your mind to, by the way.

So Craig suggested I had this go at, you know, panto. Acting, singing, the dancing part was easy. And so I decided to try it. Now, that was absolutely terrifying, the most terrifying thing I ever did in my whole life, but I gave it a go. And yes, I met Danny Taylor there. He was playing Fleshcreep, the villain,

while I was playing Mother Nature, the fairy, who narrated the show. Fleshcreep and Mother Nature. Yes, Fleshcreep and Mother Nature. So did you get together during the production or at the after show party on the final night? No, he was coming out of a long-term relationship. He has an eight-year-old son

and we became good friends first, which is always a good thing. When you get older, that's a good thing. And it was about March we got together and we're kind of inseparable. You know, he's just the most amazing person I ever met in my entire life. Yay!

I just want to say that. Sounds a keeper. Can he dance? He can move. He's on stage. He's in Blood Brothers, plays Sammy, puts on Macbeth and everything at the Epstein Theatre in Liverpool and that production just got taken to Singapore. He's on stage. He's in Blood Brothers, plays Sammy, puts on Macbeth and everything at the Epstein Theatre in Liverpool.

And that production just got taken to Singapore. Singer-songwriter. So, yes, he's got some rhythm. Can he ballroom dance? No. So will we be learning from the beginning? Yes, we'll be going to the Starlight Ballroom with Ken. And we will be learning the basic steps from the beginning.

And I can't think of anything more fun. I could teach him, but I don't want to. So everybody out there can move and try. Go to the local dance studio. I'll be taking him. Okay, well, I almost believe you. By the way, if you've not seen Blood Brothers, shame on you, go and see it.

Oh, it's amazing. My favourite musical. Teresa, you're here really to talk about the history of dance. Why, I mean, big question this, but why do people dance? That is a big question. But people are wired to dance. It's like we make music, we also dance. And that's across the world.

And there are different cultures and they may have very different styles of dancing. And that's the wonderful thing is that dance comes in myriad forms, just like people do, and there's a dance form out there for you, whether it's hip-hop or Morris dancing or catac or bachnatium. There's something out there for you. It also is a powerful tool because dancing's been banned. Indeed. And we shouldn't forget it's been banned in England. Yes.

In the Puritan period, of course, dancing was banned. All pleasurable things were banned. But of course, it's bound up with the body and also with notions of gender as well, so that the idea of people enjoying themselves together might lead

to illicit activities. So it's a way of controlling society. And we see it across the world today. Even today, yeah, the Taliban. Yes, the Taliban, absolutely. The Taliban dancing, yeah. I want to bring Jo Stilgo, our pianist, back in because Jo is now going to...

We are going to ask, and it's a big ask, Sujata Vanagi to tell us a little bit about the history of Katak in about two minutes. But if you can, Sujata. Okay, sure um katak means a storyteller literally the word means storyteller so through the dance you tell stories but the stories are not necessarily always narrative based it could be simple rhythms movement of two little animals or you know two different people who has two different personalities. So like stories are

also like little, little concepts also. So it started maybe about a thousand years back as storytelling art form when the storytellers would tell the stories about gods and goddesses in the temple courtyard and other people would come and they will sometimes sing and dance and express, tell the stories. But then gradually they started traveling and different things they realized they have to bring in the dance. Then the Mughals came and they were great patrons for the dance and music and arts and so on. So they started inviting the dancers.

And this is in the North India mainly. Right. And then dance took a little stylistic and more sort of stunning part of the dance. Like I finish and then somebody say, wow, wow, like great. So those kind of moments came at that time. And they would be they would have been rewarded straight away with, you know, money or jewels and stuff like that.

And women and men danced together or were they involved in the same dances? Initially, men danced. The storytellers were only men. Even my teacher, who is one of the legendary, from whose family the dance comes, in their family, women never danced. They all knew everything. Even he learned a great deal, he says, from his mother, but women didn't dance. I don't know why. And so it sort of grew. But when it came to the Mughal court, then it was mainly the men. And then the women started coming. And that's how it kind of moved on. For people who genuinely still can't quite get it, I'm going to ask Jo. Well, you talk to Jo now and see if you can ask Jo to give a bit of rhythm, give us a taste of what we're talking about here. Okay so if I

You're ready Jo? I'm ready, this is my first ever attempt at Kathak on a piano on Women's Hour Keep expectations low and I think we'll be It's only beat and rhythm everything is bound to the beat so if you give me just four, one, two, three, four, one,

any tune you can play. Three, four, one, two, three, four. Fantastic. Thank you guys very much. Fantastic. And is that something you can learn at any age? Could it be something you can take up? And do you need to be fit? No I'm trained as a sports scientist We always say fit for what? If you were running a marathon

Your fitness is for it if you're doing kathaki your fitness is for it you don't need a split speaking of which Roger tweets to say I'm 71 why do I dance?

for me it keeps me young it's like making love with clothes on what a way of explaining it he says it's safe to connect and it helps him stay young. Roger, keep dancing. And this is great, actually, from Natalie.

I've got the rewarding job of teaching. Oh, it's just dipped down my screen. Hang on, that's live radio for you. You pay your licence fee for this. I'm going to go back. Natalie says, I have the rewarding job of teaching dance to people with Parkinson's in Halifax. We all love the class as

it connects us and it lifts our spirits it's so important um keep that that sounds fantastic work natalie keep that up um it does make a massive because i've actually done it with dementia before yeah and honestly it's incredible like the transformation of the music and the steps like um that i did it with them and they were in where they were for a reason and once I started playing the music I dressed old fashioned

I played 50s and 60s music and when I say danced it was step to the side step to the side under the arm and it brought a lively atmosphere to the whole encounter

they were eating better sleeping better they were singing they remembered all the words to the songs they picked up the dances like that. It was incredible.

Yeah. It does remind me actually on Monday's programme, or it might be Tuesday's, but I'm sure they'll tell me in my headphones, we have got a feature on the importance of music and movement for people living with dementia. So that's next week on the programme because I know it is really important.

Ingrid, I want you to do the same. It's because Jarta set a high standard there. Can you do the same with Joe Stilgo on the piano and just maybe talk him through a piece of music that you, if you were, because you teach essentially jazz. How would you describe the music, the dance you do teach? Yeah, my first love is jazz dance. Right.

Now they call, I like to call it contemporary jazz now because I like to add a lot of contemporary movement, which is steeped in African contemporary dance, modern dance ballet and tap essentially brings the rhythm also from jazz dance initially um so jazz would be my first love so i'd love if joe played something jazzy okay count me in a one a two a one two three four so i'll give you something for for the dancers out there that are listening that might be familiar with these steps.

We're going to go a step, touch, here we go. A step, touch, step, touch, a kickball change, a kickball change, a step, touch, a step, touch, a kickball change, a kickball change, a step, touch, touch, a pivot, turn, a pivot, turn, a pose. A five, six, seven, and a step, touch, a, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, step, That would be a jazz class. That's incredible.

Thanks, Jen. I was watching you doing a jazz class on YouTube last night, actually. Frankly, you look as though you're enjoying it as much as they are. Oh, totally. I have to tone it down. Really? Because I wear myself out. But I think that's the whole thing, though, about when you teach people you love dance, you have a passion for it. And the beauty of delivering and offering that passion to others is such a gift, you know, to be in your body, to have a skill that you've been working. I've been working on this my entire life.

I started dancing when I was three. And it's such a gift to be able to share that with others and bring joy out in their bodies. And it's not we were talking earlier. It's not necessarily about the coordination or the aesthetic of dance. I mean, that's a completely different conversation, I think. I think everyone, when you think of dance, we think of the world ballet and we think of principal dancers up there in these incredible attitude, arabesque lines on point, hitting extreme, extreme positions. And actually, the essence of dance is in all of us. You just watch a baby move to music. And it's been there in our bodies, in our DNA from when we're born.

And I think if we can always remember it and always keep it in our spirit, I think our world would be a better place. I was fortunate enough a couple of weeks ago to see a Matthew Bourne production of Romeo and Juliet at Sadler's Wells, which, I mean, it's not cheap to go to things like that. I'm conscious of that. This was a production set in a mental institution. It was never made explicitly clear. I was completely transported. One of the things that gave me encouragement, frankly, was that not all the bodies on stage looked stereotypically like ballet dancers. And I'm trying very hard not to be in any way offensive here or make a sweeping generalisation. But people looked incredibly fit and clearly immensely able to dance, but they weren't off-puttingly dancer-like.

Does any of that make any sense? It does. And I think there's a lovely shift happening in our dance culture in which the dancers on stage are reflecting the diversity of people in real life good and there's a real also push towards um health in dance as opposed to um looking a certain way and is that much needed by the way it's so much needed yeah so that dancers have much more longevity now dancers are now dancing into their 40s 50s 60s and beyond um because of that push so it's great.

I'm going to read some great stories that have come in. Beyond for me. Beyond. Keep going, girl. Keep going. Yes, do not give up. This is from Sylvia. I met my husband in 1973 at a ski club dance.

A ski club dance, sorry. Even though he was in crutches, he'd broken his Achilles tendon, he asked me to dance about, which I was thrilled about because I thought he must love dancing as I do. At the end of the evening, he told me that he'd challenged himself to dance as he wanted to meet me, but he didn't really like dancing at all.

He has hardly ever asked me to dance since, but we have been married now for 45 years. Liz is in Geneva, but says, please give a shout out to Scottish country dancing. It's great fun and keeps your brain fit as well as your legs. Liz is in Geneva, but says, please give a shout out to Scottish country dancing. It's great fun and keeps your brain fit as well as your legs. There's a group in every major city in Europe and all over the world. And it's not just the Scots who do it.

Teresa, you look particularly enthusiastic about it. Yes, I mean, we have at the University of Roehampton, we have international students. And the Chinese students have gone to Scottish country dancing and I've made really good friends there going dancing is such a sociable activity you you meet new ways of moving new ways of listening and new ways of relating to people and it's so important to try different forms of dance I think. Do you notice people on the fringes of events like that who suddenly find themselves involved in a way they might not have expected? Does that happen? Do people's minds just switch when they realise that actually,

perhaps if they are like me and regard themselves as somewhat hopeless, that something might just set them off and perhaps they can lose themselves in the music? Yes, and I think when you see people enjoying themselves, you want to join in and be a part of it. You want to, but I was trying to explain earlier that I don't think I've ever, and I think this is

generalisation again, possibly, quite a British thing. I can never totally lose myself in it. Because I'm thinking, self-consciously, that everybody's looking at me. They're not, are they? No, and there's a long...

Unfortunately. There is a reason why... Emotion and talking, darling. That's okay. That's your inhibition. But there is a historical reason why you should feel like that because the British prided themselves, particularly in the 19th century,

on containing all their emotions. And the men especially, the idea that you mustn't make an exhibition of yourself. And unless you were good at something, you didn't put yourself out there on the dance floor. Because men hated being ridiculed, you see. So that sort of seeped in from the upper classes into the grammar schools. And it's been quite pervasive.

And it's affected women as well. I have to say this idea that you contain yourself, you don't make an exhibition of yourself. I have to say that that is a generational thing. Sorry, Jane, because it's all changing I know from the same it's changing now because I think especially with the introduction of a lot of African sauce dancing

where we see some superb dancers and when it's tied to popular music as well I think there's a big shift now about men dancing and the shame that used to be attached to, you know, certainly my father's generation and indeed my own generation,

the fear of dancing and being made to look stupid. Yeah, oh, heaven forbid. Natalie says, I've got an all-female ceilidh band called the Bowdillies. The fun, the laughter and the connection people share at a ceilidh is unbeatable. And Jo says, I met my husband at salsa lessons. Two years later, we got married. 13 years on, we've got a nine-year-old and a seven-year-old. When I was pregnant with my first child,

when I used to walk up to the steps to the salsa lessons, she used to start kicking in time to the beats in the music. I remember actually my oldest daughter reacted violently and with extreme pleasure to Mamma Mia long before she was actually born. But I went to the stage show and she went berserk with what I think was genuine enjoyment. The whole business of...

What was the line that Ginger Rogers said? She did everything that Fred Astaire did... Backwards in heels. Backwards in heels, yeah. Now, is that still the case that more is required of the female partner in a dance competitive dancers for sure wear the

high heels 3 inch 3 and a half inches sometimes and you do have to adjust your balance and it's harder than dancing in a flat shoe I mean take that over to you Curtis what's your feeling? No that is very true I do agree with that and I've actually done a show called Priscilla Queen of the Desert so I've danced in-inch heels before and danced in flat shoes. Oh, they didn't know that then.

Yeah, I know. It makes a massive difference. You're telling me. So I do have a lot of respect for the women dancers because they do have to mould their body and shape and they have to have extreme strength and conditioning throughout the whole body to maintain that position for a long period. Now to interrupt you there but if you go to the ladies on Strictly for example

most of those ladies have never ever worn a heel that high and had to move in a short space of time. It's a colossal undertaking Oh blisters on their feet, sore feet it throws your weight in a different position you get backache, all sorts of pains until you get used to these shoes

it's quite interesting really isn't it't it, the ladies' Latin shoe? I'm trying to think back over the years as strictly, and who's won, whether they've been females or males. I actually can't remember what they... Well, you've had both males and females, haven't you? Yeah, but I just wonder who... because genuinely, when you think about it, it is a bigger ask of the female celebrities. There is no doubt about it. Well, I think the men have a little hard work here and there, but they're just guiding and leading, you know.

But the ladies, they have to twist, turn, spin, jump, all sorts of things in these heels. So I'd say it's a little bit more difficult for the women. I don't know how you feel, Curtis. I'm sat around a table of women. You're not going to disagree. I'm going to agree. No, no, no.

I do think... Different roles, different roles. The men's role is also difficult. Yeah, because the men, we do have to... And for somebody that's never danced before, we do have to lead the woman and supposedly try and keep that frame. And we have to support the woman.

I always got told a man's job is to make the woman look good whilst dancing. That's our job a little bit too, to show the lady off and she can do all of the intricate movements and all of the, like you said, spins, the lifts, get thrown around, the backbends, and the men can stand

there a little bit more. So I am going to agree with you and it is a little bit hard for the women. Don't do too much standing around on Strictly Men, that's all I'm saying. Don't do too much standing around. Just a quick word from Sujata on Katak. Flat shoes? Is it flat shoes for everybody? Bare feet.

Bare feet. Most natural. Right. This is, you know, like the rhythm I was chanting out. All the sounds has to come out through your feet. The stamping of the feet. Sometimes the whole sole of the foot or the side or the heels or a combination tapping and the heel and the side and and how you hear the sound and how you interpret it through using the feet and how you controlling it it's so

it's bare feet and very technical feet and really very aware of each part of the foot. Like if I place my toe in this way, what sound? Because we also wear ankle bells, like several. Yeah, several ankle bells, right. But the idea of doing it in heels would be, it's unthinkable. No, no, no. Do you know, it's an interesting statistic

in our industry. There's been many, many ladies from way back when that have all had knee surgeries. And I wonder whether that's to do with the fact that it started, some people way back with Lorraine and Laird, used to be four-inch heels. Then it went to three-inch heels, three-and-a-half-inch heels. Just wonder whether that had something to do with the fact that your knees,

in your industry, do people have bad knees when they get older? Yes, I think the bad knees everybody has is badly designed knees anyway. But the knees, the impact is there. But because the natural stance and then if you're bare feet and you're stamping, it's slightly less stress on the knee. But I can imagine if you're going up on your toes and the body weight shifted more to the front. So the knee has the full pressure of the of the weight and um so definitely the it would the knee um the heels would have i would say something to do with their knee pain and unless the the big cooling down happening or uh properly conditioned particularly

for that kind of work so curtis um you are about to get the opportunity of a lifetime. Oh, I'm very interested right now. I had a lot of them recently, actually. This is going to be, because I want you to attempt to teach me to do a couple of extremely simple dance steps. Absolutely. All health and safety has been taken care of here. We've got a sensible surface

i'm not in the most sensible of shoes but they're not my highest either and i'm going to hand over to everybody else while i slip over with you to the mat basic oh it just couldn't be any more basic it's got to be the most basic it will be very basic don't you worry all right let's go over there shirley i would like you to slip into commentator mode, if that's all right. But anybody else can also interject with their own words of wisdom. OK. Right. Well, I'll give you words of wisdom now.

Make sure you enjoy it with that young man. Every second of it, darling. The hope's coming off now. How tall are you, Curtis? His jacket's going off now. Six foot three. Six foot three. He's almost touching his head on the ceiling.

There we go. Right. Four basics, four New Yorks. Four basics, four New Yorks. Four basics and four New Yorks is about what he's going to dance. So what we're about to do, I'm going to show the lady steps and then I will dance with you. So what we are going to start with is moving backwards on the right leg. So we're just going to go. Yes.

So Curtis is showing this young lady how to transfer her weight. He's doing it very well. Right leg comes in. We just take the step backwards. Just take the step back on his right foot. Dropping the heel down. And now we replace the weight forward. Now he's going to replace the weight

all the way forward onto his left foot. Bringing our right foot together. Now we're going to go side, close, side to the right. And it's just basically walking steps. Side step to the right on his right foot. So if you just go backwards on your right leg. She's having a little go now. Back, replace the weight forward. A little go. And now we're just going to go backwards on your right leg. She's having a little go now. Back, replace the weight forward.

A little go. And now we're just going to go side, close side. So right leg to the side. Side, together, side. And she just completed that beautifully. And now you're going to take this leg forwards. Now she's going to go forward now on her left. And then back on her right.

And three small steps to the side to complete the cha-cha-cha. I honestly think I'm a long way from perfection here. No, darling, you're not. Give it a go, darling. Give it a go. So in hold. So I'm going to place my hand here on you.

So he's just got this lovely hold, left to right hand hold. So the man's left arm, lady's right hand. He's put his right arm around her body and she's placed her left arm beautifully on his shoulder they want some music now maybe not music just yet

one go about music they're going to have one go about the music here so she looks a little nervous the head is a little bit tilted there she needs to got that posture

a little bit side forward but she completed the step never use the same foot twice darling one more time so think of dancing as like walking it literally is left forward but she completed the step never use the same foot twice darling always change weight from one foot to the other let's go to the music she's feeling very brave as we get to this stage of the game

twisted her body to the left yeah and here we go quite passionate in that of the game. I'm going to come a little bit closer. He's got to snuggle his arms. Keep your head slightly to this side. Twisted her body to the left. Yeah. And here we go, darling. Quite passionate in that embrace. Two, three, four, and one, two, three. I think Banish is actually playing a part here. One, two, cha-cha.

One, two, and three, and cha-cha. One, forward step, cha-cha. One, and two, and three, and cha-cha one. Forward step, cha-cha one and two and three and cha-cha. We've got some body parts that are moving that I'm not familiar with. It's not far off at all. So she had to go. We're going to give her a round of applause for that. Thank you. I think her favourite part was being in his arms.

There you go. You're right there, Shirley. How do you get up her arms like that? So if we just had about five more minutes, you would have had that perfectly, I promise you. I think that's five more years. Let's have an appreciation now for those people on Strictly that only have about three or four days

to get a whole dance or two dances together to put out to the general public, a 15 million audience, every Saturday evening. Glitz, glamour, choreography. The lot. The lot. Dancers are athletes. public of 15 million audience every saturday evening glitz glamour choreography a lot the lot and do you watch as you watch them change their attitude but their bodies change as well don't they well some of them start out exactly how you started this morning no it would be as useless as honestly absolutely i've seen it they start out like that and by day two like you said that's

just in a few seconds you have a few more minutes and then you have six hours in a day or 12 hours or however long you rehearse. By the end of the week, you'll be surprised what the body can do. You really can't. It's just moulding their muscles. I'm actually quite tired after doing that. I'm putting a name forward for Strictly, not KBBC.

No, absolutely not. There is a limit to what I could endure. Do you, I don't know, do you think, Ingrid, that programmes like Strictly have actually changed the nation's attitude to dance? I think definitely. It has, yeah. Yeah, definitely, for the positive.

I think it helps dispel the myth, you know. I think we see people start from the beginning, like as you were just now, who possibly have had no experience. And then we see the growth and development and we see that actually with a little bit of hard work, with the right guidance and the right teacher and the right inspiration and positive environment,

you can be moving and dancing and living your best life. It's the wanting. It's the wanting. Not being too nervous, you know, plucking up that courage to get out there and think, OK, let me try this. I know Annika Rice, I've interviewed Annika Rice and she is

she isn't it? I mean she's every reason to be nervous isn't she? But what a fantastic challenge and I know particularly a lot of women around that age as I am will be rooting for her because we want to see someone who can who's going on that dancing journey. God bloody I'm sounding like

I am on Strictly I need to be but the shoe you've totally put me off with the three and a half inch heels. There is just no way. We can always put you in flats, darling. Where there's a will, there's a way. Variation versatile. We can move around it, yeah. Okay, thank you. You are very reassuring, Curtis.

Did you actually, you started dancing when you were on the world. Was that right? I did. I was seven years old for ballroom and Latin, but two when I did ballet and tap. Right. Because my mother said i just didn't stand still the music could go on and so she thought what shall i put her in so she put me in ballet and tap yeah like you said from a very small age when the baby comes out the womb you put music on it's moving all its limbs and you know it's there it is there yeah and what about you sujata do you remember the do you consciously remember the first time you danced or even heard music that made you want to dance?

I don't think I was a baby like this, was ready to dance right from the beginning. I was more active and climbing trees and stuff like that. I grew up in India. We lived in a very beautiful place where there are lots of trees. And I found that very interesting, finding a way of climbing to the top branch and so on. But my mother thought for the similar reason that she has a lot of energy and she's very brave, she thought, and put her in dancing. So she did. So I was like about six year old when I started dancing. And Curtis, I know that your family is absolutely steeped in ballroom isn't your dad was he was a judge was he my dad was a ex-champion in his time and then he went on to judging and then had kids me and AJ and we were always around the

dancing so we were always involved in it and loved to watch I mean we spent his money in the arcades at Blackpool when we were about four it wasn wasn't so much watching the dancing, but we were around the environment. And then we decided to give it a go and just fell in love with it, really. So there was never any pressure on you not to dance. But let's be honest, a lot of lads grow up in households where an interesting dance would be, completely wrongly, by the way, but would be frowned upon. Originally, Dad didn't want us to dance, actually, because he knew that it would sort of ruin his career a little bit.

Because he can't judge when you're dancing yes so therefore it puts him out of work but they put all of their money into me and AJ but yeah I understand there's a lot of places and households and schools which don't really focus on dancing and I think dancing well for me I can only speak for myself, dancing taught me so much respect. It taught me how to treat not just a woman, how to treat people in general. I had to take on a lot of skills and a lot of time out of school, a lot of time out of the public life and stuff. And I had to focus and dedicate myself and I had to really want what I wanted. And it taught me a lot of respect on how to lead a lady into the room.

And that can be the same as leading a man into the room. But it's all about respecting your partner, leading your partner, showing her or him in the direction. So it teaches you that aspect of respect and equality. I mean, equally, there is no way that you've got to be super fit. You can't do this half-heartedly.

You build that. You build it. It's a built thing. Yes, yeah. no way that you've got to be super fit you can't do this half-heartedly yeah so jatta go on what were you going to say i'm just saying that over the with the time it happens you get fit for whatever you are doing and you realize that if you you know if you had a long holiday or whatever you're a little out of breath in something you realize oh, oh, my God, I have to start doing something about it. So but that's your work. Right. So that this is your work. Doesn't matter where you go. Like you want to deliver what you are, how you are used to. Yeah. OK. And deliver is the word, isn't it? Deliver. Yeah. And then also you you set your own expectation and said, this is how I do it. And then I have to be fit enough to be able to do that if I'm not then I mean if something happens that's beyond my control that's a that's a

different thing otherwise it's like I have to like either I do it the way I like it of course I'd like to yeah yeah I have to get very fit after the summer yes well we all feel a bit like that Teresa quick word from you to get very fit after the summer holidays. Yes, well, we all feel a bit like that. Teresa, quick word from you. But let's not forget the recreational dancer. Yes, sure. The once a week, just going and enjoying, or the, you know, dancing at a wedding or a birthday party.

You're still a dancer. Or just being me in the kitchen with my 70s disco classic playlist. I hear it. We are all dancers. A glass of cava down, and then I'll be there. Bit of ABBA. Yvonne Elliman is my go-to. If I can't have you...

Oh. You must know. Everybody must know that. Yes, indeed. Saturday Night Fever. Thank you. That's it. OK.

Everyone can do it. Perhaps, actually, we'll go out on that. Can you play that, please, Joe? Oh, why don't you... Sorry. Yvonne Elliman. if I can't have you, then we'll all have a dance. Can we do a little hustle?

I've been doing that with my actors at the RSC. Okay, the hustle. Yeah. Well, no, just that. Okay. Yeah, that's great. Okay, Joe. Oh Apparently I've got a dancer case of it so let's do it Do it with you Curtis Take two on the chart, here we go Right

And love it, now we've got more low in the low a disco then, and a new kitchen and a new side tap, side tap Clap your hands And then a twirl, got a little bit of break dancing going on from the very gorgeous Curtis Very tampered young man there Oh we've got a bit of a gallop going on there.

Yeah, I love that. Papers flying all over the place. Oh dear, that was like my next hen night, that was. Well, that was how the live programme ended this morning. I've got to say thanks to everybody who was tweeting along with their own dance stories and a lot of people just saying how nice it was to have a positive edition of the programme. And I think, listen, I present the programme, I do understand what you mean.

It is brilliant when we can just talk about things that are very much a part of all our lives, but really just cheer you up a little bit. Emma says, My partner Jez and I entered Ultra Ballroom for cancer research, having never danced before. We had eight weeks of lessons to learn the waltz, then performed at the Grand Hotel in Brighton to a big audience.

It was the most amazing experience. Nerve-wracking, but so much fun. Maggie says, dance is for everyone. Age, competence, abilities are irrelevant. It's social glue and a shortcut to happiness. You don't stop dancing because you grow old. You grow old because... You stop dancing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop dancing.

That's it. Martha said I had so much fun learning how to do Vogue dancing with hashtag JJ Vernon at the Southbank Centre last Saturday. My arms were sore the following day though. Eric, the last time, or this time last year, Curtis bought his company to the Life Rooms

in Liverpool because he wanted to raise people's confidence through dance is that right? Yes. Well I've now improved my self esteem says Eric and I've gone back to the jive because of him. That is fantastic. There is a real, I mean you mentioned that you'll

work with people who have dementia. Somebody tweeted in to talk about working with people with Parkinson's. There's a real gap in the market. It's a massive, massive thing. It truly is. And when I did it, honestly, because you're always constantly working your brain, you've got positive endorphins flowing, you're moving, you're learning a new skill. And it's just something that our hearts love to do.

Listen to music, move and dance and express ourselves. Claire says, I teach Lindy Hop. When teaching, we make a real effort to talk in terms of leads and followers rather than gender and that makes it more inclusive. Rachel, this is interesting. I'm trying to persuade my 12-year-old son to go to a street dance class at school.

He is very self-conscious and also I think there is still a sense amongst his male peers that dancing is a girl's activity. That is so infuriating. Your son, does he dance or has he done? Oh, yeah, he trained at the Italia Conti School of Dramatic Arts from age four years old. It does everything, you know, on Broadway now. And, you know, amazing.

Every little boy should do it. It's just, it's for everybody. I've got to say, I mean, I grew up in um crosby in liverpool so not far from the weirwall um football overshadows everything is it not slightly harder in places like that for young lads in particular to say no i actually i want to dance i think it's just making it more aware and you know people being more accepting i do think it is i mean when i danced it was all little girls. You'd be lucky if you got one little boy in the class.

It has improved over the years, but I'd still encourage it at any level. But it's like you say, it's the bullying, it's going to school and people thinking it's a girls' sport when it's not. No, and never has been. And it is the funnest thing they'll ever do. And it's incredible, yeah. For sure.

And for anyone that does dance and listens, if there is young or anything, or the parents, tell them, be yourself. If you want to do it, do it. Don's incredible, yeah. For sure. And for anyone that does dance and listens, if there is younger or anything or the parents, tell them, be yourself. If you want to do it, do it. Don't listen to what anyone else says. School is only a small part of your life and it may be very important at the moment that you're in there,

but if you can stay true to yourself and be happy with who you are and what you do, and if that is dance, if it's football, if it's rugby, whatever it is, do it and it will pay off

in the long run and you will come off a much better person than anyone that's ever put doubt on you. And Joe Stilgo is our pianist. And you, how did you get into music and dance? Was it always...? Well, I grew up watching all those old films

from my grandparents and my parents, so all the, you know, from MGM movies, those musicals. Gene Kelly seemed like the ultimate hero for me. Not only, I mean, I loved sport growing up because he was that mixture. He was a great athlete plus the most incredible mover. And I loved the way he used music. So when I went into jazz, really,

it was as much because I took such joy out of music and passion, but I also wanted to get people to dance. So often at my shows, people are dancing, or if they're in a theatre, they come up to me afterwards and say, I'm so frustrated, I couldn't get up and dance. So I love that when it's that mixture of music that people can listen to but also encourages dance. And I love watching Strictly,

and I've loved being on this show so much because it's such a passion of mine. I did a London Jazz Festival show a couple of years ago, tribute to Gene Kelly, where we had the guy who wrote the biography about Gene, loads of stories. Could you give us a bit of Gene Kelly-esque music? Um... love it so i've just started tap lessons as well have you wow and it's okay i mean i don't have

enough time to do it so i've got two young daughters. But as you said, Curtis, it's such, you know, it's so much fun. If I could do that, you know, if someone said, come and do Learn Tap, all you do for three months. Because already, you know, with a great teacher, and I've got a great teacher. Yeah, the improvements you make are incredible. And you'll find that, Jane, if you... You've only done it for five minutes.

My dance journey has just begun. And who knows where it's going to end. Yeah, OK. I just thought, I don't know what... The health benefits are obvious. But also, I've got to say, when you're older... I've started doing Pilates. Whilst Pilates is wonderful, I know, Ingrid, you teach Pilates.

I do, yes. I've actually got aches and pains I now get from doing Pilates. It's just muscles is it awake in that you're telling me some of mine have been asleep so it's just that is it it's just that i mean it's just it's just your there's muscles in your body that lay dormant when you don't use them and as you get older they lay more and more dormant and then when you bring them back to life there's a bit of a protest a protest exactly great way to put it a bit of a protest and i think that

um the the benefits to your health the benefits to your mental well-being as well yeah um are numerous if we just get our bodies moving this is where i suppose that's why so many of us were rooting for debbie mcgee on on strictly because yeah i mean that was just it was incredible but i don't want to sound patronizing by saying that she's a she's not much older than I am but it was it felt like I actually I'm honest I thought it was a shame she didn't win so can a an older person ever actually I'd like to believe so you know I think the again the audience the public they vote we put in our 10 cents worth in so that people can get an idea of what's going on but she was an exception to the rule she was so dedicated she wanted to go out every week you know it's a bit like yourself if you want to do it you will learn how to do it if you want to but if you keep telling yourself you can't you won't the

voting is interesting isn't it because uh i'm always interested in who's got the fan base and and who hasn't well when aston went out and series out in Series 1, it was week four, I think, and he went out, I had to send somebody home. He didn't do a very good Viennese waltz and I saved AJ instead of Aston and his partner, AJ's partner, because of the dancing. But if the public would have voted, he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

So although Twitter blew up and it was front-page news, it still was not my problem you put them in the bottom two I have to choose the best dancer I wonder whether the public still get that actually I keep saying it every time make sure you vote, don't just sit there and critique it and then get on Twitter

and say oh you don't know what you're talking about how could you do that I can because you put them in the bottom two and I have to pick the best dancer. Yeah, based on their performance in the dancing. And this series is going to be more difficult than ever because I've got a feeling that the running field is all of a similar level.

It's all going to be quite similar, I think. Have you seen James Cracknell dance yet? We saw them when they did their little formation. You've seen that? I meant with his partner. You can't tell me, can you? Well... Put it this way, it's going to be

very, very exciting. Unpredictable. It's going to be a series of all series to watch. I think it's going to be a high standard this year. High standard for sure. You have to vote. I will be sending great dancers home early. That's all I can say. Oh, that is, okay. Yeah, that's, well, I was going to watch anyway

and now I'm definitely going to watch. Thank you all so much for being with us this morning. We've just really enjoyed it and you've all been fantastic and really contributed. Thank you all very much. Thank you. Fantastic. We keep dancing, obviously. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.