Woman's Hour - Shirley J. Thompson; Female rabbis; Underwear in Pakistan

Episode Date: June 17, 2021

Composer Shirley J. Thompson is the first woman in Europe to have composed and conducted a symphony within the last 40 years - New Nation Rising, A 21st Century Symphony, which was originally commissioned for the Queen’s Golden Jubilee in 2002, and then used for the 2012 Olympics Opening Ceremony. She’s now composed a new work, Emanation, which she’s written for the disabled-led ensemble BSO Resound. The ensemble is giving a live-streamed performance of the world premiere from Lighthouse, Poole.Earlier this week, Lindsey Taylor-Guthartz was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi at a Jewish college in New York. But as a woman, her ordination is not recognised by the Orthodox community in the UK. She is also no longer able to teach at the London School of Jewish Studies. Lindsey talks to Emma about the positive role of women within Orthodox Judaism and why she thinks opinion on female rabbis is starting to change. However, hers is by no means a position shared by all women within the community. Rachie Binstock explains why she is comfortable with the tradition of male-only rabbis when it comes to her faith.What do you look for in a good pair of pants? Advertisers have long told us that lacy, barely-there luxury is what all women want. But high on the priority list for most women is almost certainly comfort. However, experiencing the simple pleasure of a well-fitting bra and pants is not something accessible to all women everywhere. BBC Urdu reporter Saher Baloch talks to Emma about the uncomfortable problem of female underwear in Pakistan, and Qamar Zaman from underwear manufacturer Amami Clothing explains the taboo hampering efforts to bring about change.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. Now you may have seen on the front page and some of the leading stories today this headline. Women of childbearing age warned not to drink alcohol. Not women who are pregnant. Don't touch the booze is often the message and is the guidance, or even those who are trying to conceive. But all women theoretically

able to conceive being warned off the alcohol. This comes from the first draft of an action plan to reduce the harmful use of alcohol by an organisation we've heard a lot from in the past 15 months, the World Health Organisation. To quote the draft directly, the draft part of the report, it says, It is necessary to raise awareness among decision makers and the general public about the risks and harms associated with alcohol consumption. Appropriate attention should be given to prevention of the initiation of drinking among children and adolescents and prevention of drinking amongst pregnant women and women of childbearing age. Now, as someone pointed out, women are technically of childbearing age from a very young age to 50 and beyond. And lumping women in with children and adolescents

like this hasn't pleased all, to say the least. So is this helpful scientific guidance or another example of women's lives being controlled with little nuance or not enough nuance. We're going to discuss this in more detail in just a moment but your views please, how do you come at this? Is it yet another piece of advice aimed at women and our bodies, perhaps unhelpful, shame inducing

or a tough conversation that really needs having? 84844 is the number you need to text on social media, We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or email us your views, your experiences, your take. Perhaps you work in this field through our website. Also on today's programme, the thickest

glass ceiling in Judaism, the fight for orthodox female rabbis intensifies. Why women in Pakistan cannot easily buy comfy bras and knickers. And music from Shirley J Thompson, the first woman in Europe to have composed and conducted a symphony within the last 40 years. A lot to come. Don't go anywhere. Now, the World Health Organization have brought out a draft global alcohol action plan, 2022 to 2030,

because they say harmful use of alcohol causes approximately 3 million deaths every year and because policies at the moment do not correspond to the magnitude of the problem. However, many papers today have honed in into one of those paragraphs of the report, which I just quoted, suggesting women of childbearing age should not drink alcohol. Tell me your views. You already are. The World Health Organization, this message here, seems to have turned into a factory of theoretical risk panic merchants, reads this first message. You may have a different take. Tell us what you think. Joining me now, Ella Whelan, Assistant

Editor of Spiked, and Niamh Fitzgerald, Professor of Alcohol Policy at the University of Stirling. Ella, I'll come to you first. What do you make of this line in the guidance? Yeah, I'm not Assistant Editor of Spiked any longer by the way i'm just a columnist but um there you go so no way to get that right go on i'm with the academy of ideas um the i think this is a direct assault on women's freedom and that's not uh to sound alarmist because uh the idea that women are going around uh throwingerosene to the wind, downing bottles of Smirnoff and not taking any care when they might suspect that they're pregnant, when they're hoping to get pregnant, is a nonsense. The very few cases where there are serious issues around alcohol abuse during pregnancy

are not just simply about women not being aware of WHO guidance, but come from very difficult, specific social circumstances. There's a lot going on in those women's lives that they need help and not hectoring from WHO. But also this is about trust. I mean, it links in with several other areas of women's life, particularly when it comes to our, you know, when we come to childbearing age, when we come to thinking about pregnancy. I mean, the law around abortion similarly mistrusts women because it suggests that we can't make decisions about our own lives. The idea that women who are adult, 18 and over,

can't think sensibly about when they should drink, when they should not drink, and can't think sensibly about their own life choices is a real insult. I mean, as you pointed out, as I suppose people have been messaging into you, what is childbearing age? I got my first period in year six. You know, I started having sex around about 16. You know, what are we talking about here? Should I just not ever have a drink throughout my entire adult life in case I fall pregnant? If I do fall pregnant, is that it for me? Are my choices over? Do I not get to decide anything? I mean, lots of people talk about the fact that women are living in a kind of,

there's a lot of hysteria about women living in a sort of handmaid's tale type era. It's this kind of stuff that does link to that, that makes that feeling of hysteria real. The suggestion that women's freedom be absolutely taken out of their hands. Being pregnant is an incredibly stressful thing. I'm trying to get pregnant.

I'm currently going through my second round of IVF. My life is miserable at the moment. Women are not so stupid as to take these things lightly. Well, thank you for sharing that. And I'm very, very sorry to hear that. Been there. I know how difficult that side of things is, but also it's going to be very much in your mind

at the moment as you're going through it. And even though if you're not in that stage, what's so striking to bring in Neve, who is Professor of Alcohol Policy at this point, is it's not just about this line in the report, and I accept it's just a line. It's not just about if you are trying to get pregnant, as Ella was saying there. It's also if you're of childbearing age. Has the World Health Organization messed up here or do we need to think more broadly about women and alcohol, Niamh? So I think we need to be really careful here

not to fall into the trap that has been laid for us in these newspaper reports. It's striking that the commentators in the reports are from the alcohol industry. I fully agree with what Ella said. The WHO doesn't set guidance for women.

That's what governments do. That's what they, you know, so we could argue with governments if we wanted. But this is clearly a mis who choose not to drink at all. And what the World Health Organization is trying to achieve is a world where we have that freedom to make up our own minds about whether or not to drink alcohol without being constantly bombarded by misinformation and marketing that makes it really difficult for people to do that. Niamh, if I may, I don't want to fall into any of these traps that you talked about. And I distinctly will tell you this for now. That's why we've invited you on. And that's why we're talking and hearing from our listeners. But that's why we've also quoted directly from the World Health Organization report.

I'm not interested in what the alcohol industry has to say about the World Health Organization's view on alcohol, because that would be something that wouldn't be, as you say, relevant almost in this point. And I accept where some of the quotes have come from in the newspaper reports. But just to say directly from this draft action plan, there is a line here talking about appropriate attention, and we can discuss what that is, about the prevention of initiation of drinking, children, adolescents, pregnant women and women of childbearing age. Men are not mentioned there. No, but if you look at the actions, so they talk about appropriate action. And if you look at the text of the actions there, they do not mention women of childbearing age.

They talk about women in pregnancy and they talk about children. But I think I'm not I'm not saying that what the industry say about the WHO isn't relevant here. But I think where have these stories come from? Why just before the WHO is preparing for a forum next week where they're looking at empowering governments and empowering parents to control the marketing that we're all bombarded with all the time, have these stories suddenly appeared?

You know, at the moment, national governments do not have the power to control advertising that appears in this country where people are accessing material online. You know, we've seen the stories about social media influencers not adhering to the current rules. So you have content being produced abroad, coming in here, and that's what WHO are working on.

That is a direct threat to the alcohol industry, and that is, I believe, most likely why we are seeing these stories appear now, because that's the main thing that WHO are working on at the moment and have been tasked to do. I will bring Ella back in on that in just a moment but just to be very clear is there anything in your research around stopping women from drinking of childbearing age because that is directly said here no so where obviously there as ella has pointed out there are decisions that women's women need to make about the risks and benefits of drinking when they come to different stages of their lives whether that's pregnancy whether that's trying to get pregnant even when people

are trying to get pregnant i would argue that they have agency over knowing when they might be pregnant and when they might not be pregnant and being able to make those choices you know obviously you know you know whether you've had sex or not since your last period so you know whether or not you're likely to be pregnant so there are clearly there's clearly an issue around agency in terms of the guidance that women are sometimes given around alcohol but i don't think so you know whether or not you're likely to be pregnant. So there's clearly an issue around agency in terms of the guidance that women are sometimes given around alcohol. But I don't think WHO are giving that guidance. This is a first draft.

It's very clearly a first draft test. And that mention, which I think is ill-advised, doesn't appear in the actual actions that they're recommending. So I don't think we should worry that WHO are recommending that governments stop women of childbearing age drinking. There's no suggestion of that in the action. Ella, what do you make of what Niamh's had to say there? The mention is ill-advised. I think it's slightly disingenuous to suggest that this is just kind of more like a helpful pamphlet put out by WHO that pregnant women or a woman of childbearing age can pick up and think, oh, there's some interesting advice this is the the idea that unless unless you had interventions from who

or governments or campaign groups or whatever it is that women would be you know holding a can of stella while they were seven months pregnant or whatever i know i'm just being slightly ridiculous it is insulting i mean the pictures on the back of beer bottles of a big pregnant woman with a big bump and a big red line and a cross through it. If I didn't see that, would I have the bottle to my mouth before I saw that and realized that it was a bad thing? It's a real insult to women's intelligence. And this is happening in the context of increasing alarmism around women and pregnancy. I mean, we have regulation, for example, and it goes on through when women go on to have children, regulation around the provision of formula milk and the sale of formula milk,, we have regulation, for example, and it goes on through when women go on to have children, regulation around the provision of formula milk and the sale of formula milk,

because we have a sort of obsession with women breastfeeding. We have, I've already mentioned, illiberal rules around abortion law, which mean that women can't make their own decisions. There is a mistrust of women. The British Pregnancy Advisory Service does great campaigns around this. The fact that society still has very sexist mistrust of women being able to make their own decisions when it comes to the issue of children. What I would assert is that women are autonomous individuals as capable and sensible as men of understanding, as Niamh has mentioned, is understanding what it takes to be a sensible person to think about start having children.

And in those instances where women do make mistakes, if they do get pregnant pregnant if they have had a lot to drink any of those things that their freedom doesn't suddenly get snatched away from them that we have a sensible discussion about what it is we can do to empower women to make those decisions a sensible discussion ella let me just read you this from tiffany who says the advice on alcohol is just the early stages of an inevitable wider movement uh to move away from alcohol use just as we did with cigarettes Any woman who's ended up regretting choices made in their teens while drinking, also with regards to breast cancer, broken relationships, addiction, addicted family members, infertility, enhanced menopausal symptoms and many other issues, will tell you how much alcohol use affects the fabric of our society. And it is incredibly unhealthy. Also, the UK drinking culture leads to a lot of unhealthy opposition

to these recommendations. What do you say to Tiffany, Ella? Well, you know, everyone knows that drinking alcohol to excess and binge drinking is not good for your health in the same way that we know packing our bellies full of Mars bars every day is no good. Jumping on a motorbike without a helmet is no good. You know, there are lots of things that we do in life that come with risks. And as adults, we assess those risks. I mean, we've just been through 15 months of a pandemic when we've been discussing the rights and wrongs of risk. Surely we should be able to think, I think,

think more clearly about our relationship with risk and our relationship with freedom and the way in which those two things interplay. I mean, just on smoking and drinking in pregnancy, the vast majority of women don't do it because they want the best for their child because they're looking forward to becoming mothers. It's a wonderful thing, but also a stressful thing.

And I think when women make decisions that people don't agree with, whether it's at their end, a mother of four who's pregnant again, who's just having that one cigarette or that one drink to calm her down because she's on the brink. Would we judge that woman or would we understand the context in which she's doing it let me go beings are complicated and women are complicated and sensible if i could make sure to bring you in go on briefly come back in there so i i agree with ella that people are capable of making decisions but i don't agree that we are given all of the information that we need currently to do that so it isn't just binge drinking that is an issue. We know that drinking is linked to cancer.

We know that the alcohol industry just now do not want calorie labelling on bottles. So women don't even get to see, if they drink a non-alcoholic beer, they're allowed to see what calories are on that. But if they drink an alcoholic beer, there's no obligation to put the calorie labelling on that. So people are not being given the information.

We don't want to know the calories. Well, many women do want to know the calories and the public support that. And so we don't have the information that we need to make those choices. We don't have lots of people are not aware of the link between alcohol and cancer. And that is something that the industry are actively campaigning against anything that would provide that information. I'm very sorry to butt in, but if I may, because it's come in on so many messages and I want to put this one to you. A lot of people getting in touch say, you know, regardless, as you say, an ill-advised line or however you want to describe this line in what is, as you say, draft action plan at the moment. What about men and sperm in this? Because men have got to take responsibility too. What do you say? So many messages saying that and asking you about that. I think absolutely that's a fair point in terms of thinking through

what happens currently when people are, you know, are reproducing and there is impact on both men and women in terms of the risks for that. And I think there is evidence to show that. But I think that, so that's absolutely a fair point

that could be put back to WHO, I think. Well, I'm hoping to do that. We are hoping, if we can, to speak to the World Health Organization. As of yet, I've not got anybody with me at the moment, but before the end of the program, we've got the full hour now. I hope I can do that. Niamh, thank you very much for your time. I'm putting it into some broader context. Ella Whelan, thank you to you as well for taking the time this morning and also bringing some of your own personal experience to bear there. A columnist at Spiked. And of course, so many messages from you to come to.

Just a message here. Give the same advice to men. We recommend you don't drink. If you don't do that, then it's sexist and controlling if you don't give the same advice. Another one here. Jane says alcohol is a factor in diminished quality of sperm. This issue is relevant to men and women.

Both genders need to take responsibility. Another one here. On women's drinking during childbearing age. I'd like to share that it was my partner giving up drinking that resulted in the success of our IVF treatment, says Kate. Thank you for that. Another one here, finding it hard to express how I feel about this without saying unbroadcastable things. Women of childbearing age, what about men of ejaculating age? There you go, I've broadcast it. How's the scientific community talking about women's health as if we're just vessels for babies with our own health

as a secondary condition? Another one here saying, I'm feeling like life's turning into The Handmaid's Tale. Along with that, this new guidance provides another way for the government to avoid the reality of alcoholism. That is, in the majority, a reaction to social circumstance and it's disproportionately men who do suffer with it. The causes and treatment of alcoholism is hugely underfunded and ignored by the government how easy here a bit of text actually

missing at the end of that without a name but thank you for the message we get the gist of it just to say this isn't the government this is the world health organization it is a draft action plan and it would then be for the government to decide how or if to implement it and i do hope i can speak to somebody from the World Health Organization. But if not, we have been in contact with them and we're waiting to hear back. Now, earlier this week, our next guest finished her training as an Orthodox rabbi at a New York Jewish college. And yet, because Dr. Lindsay Taylor Gutthartz is a woman, her status isn't recognized by the leadership of the Orthodox Jewish community here in the UK. By dint of her completing the course and taking the title of rabbi,

this led to her being stopped from teaching at the Orthodox London School of Jewish Studies. The school comes under the auspices of the Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mervis, whose office said in response to the case, The Chief Rabbi very much recognises the importance of strong female role models in our community. Indeed, there are many leadership roles which he actively encourages women to take up. The role of rabbi cannot be one of these. This is a position supported by many within the Orthodox Jewish community, including women, one of whom, Rachel Binstock, will be joining me shortly. But first, I can talk to Dr. Taylor Lindsay Goodhart. Dr. Lindsay, excuse me, Taylor Goodhart. Good morning.

Good morning. You have just qualified as an Orthodox female rabbi in terms of where you trained. But this means you aren't able to continue teaching where you were at the London School of Jewish Studies. Why not? Sadly, I'm not allowed to continue teaching there. The decision was taken by the college. As you said, the chief rabbi is their principal. So they are, I feel, responsible for explaining why I can't continue to teach. I will be continuing to teach in many other places. Is it the understanding, though, as I understand it, you tell me that you were told in advance if you were to complete this course because this comes under the orthodox

side of things and they do not recognise female rabbis, that you would not then be able to continue teaching? I was told there were no guarantees that I would be able to continue teaching. So why did you go ahead? I feel it's really important. The time has come for the UK community to start embracing women rabbis. The Orthodox community. The Orthodox community, absolutely. This is already happening in America and in Israel,

the two largest Jewish communities in the world. And there is a crying need for it here. I spent seven years writing a book that just came out this year about the religious lives of Orthodox Jewish women. And everywhere I went, I heard this need. It's a very diverse community. There are people of all opinions, all stages of observance. And there are many women who need to be able to talk to a woman who knows Jewish law, who can advise them, who can help them. Women in all sorts of situations, single mothers, people who suffered miscarriage or infertility. There is such a need for women to be able to talk to women in issues that involve Jewish law

and pastoral counselling and not always to have to go to a male rabbi. That would be the need, but is it allowed? This, again, depends on who you talk to. Luckily, Orthodox Judaism has the ability to embrace a huge diversity of legal opinions. That's one of the glories of the tradition. We have a saying, Elu ve'elu divrei Elohim chaim. These and these are the words of the living God. And that capacity to hold differing legal opinions is one of the distinctive features of Judaism.

You can find this in a variety of subjects, for instance, on the permissibility of organ donation. You'll find Orthodox rabbis who say you can donate organs. You'll find Orthodox rabbis who say you can't donate organs. And there's a whole range of subjects on which different views are held. I should say, with regard to the London School of Jewish Studies, and it pertains to that question, when asked for a statement, we got this, which was contained within it, we follow the rabbinic guidelines that form the basis of how our faith is practiced and operates in this country. Yes, that's a reference to the authority of the chief rabbi, which, of course, is very real. And I absolutely respect that the chief rabbi, and I don't see eye to eye on this.

But I think there is room for respectful disagreement. There's room to move this conversation forward. There have already been huge changes in the position of women in the Orthodox community, many of them supported very warmly by the chief rabbi. And I feel the time has come to start this conversation. Change, as you know, is a matter of factors that work on the inside, factors that come from the outside. Together, they move things on. We're already in that process. And this, I hope, is the opening to a new stage of that discussion. But do you accept that with Orthodox Judaism, a massive part, a major part, if not the part of it, is that it doesn't change in many ways? And I know that's a very broad statement, but just to try and qualify it, that the reform movement, again, to say very broadly, came out of a reforming of the religion in lots of different ways and has continued to evolve. The whole point, I suppose, here is tradition and things not changing.

So there will be people listening to this thinking, well, you can go and be a rabbi within the reform movement. There are many and they've been doing it for a long time now. What would you say to, by stint of actually just trying to reform the orthodoxy, you can't be orthodox? I think that's actually a misperception. Orthodoxy has seen countless, countless changes. And interestingly, one of them is the position of rabbi. There are no rabbis in

the Bible. Rabbi is a position that developed naturally, organically after the cataclysmic event of Jewish history, the destruction of the temple in 70 CE. And before that period, there really weren't rabbis. Gradually, rabbis became the authorities in Judaism. We have this fabulous tradition, but it's changing all the time. It continues to change. The very position of rabbi has changed quite recently. Medieval rabbis sat in studies and gave legal decisions. 19th century rabbis took on pastoral care, began to preach sermons. And that role is constantly developing, constantly changing. And all great traditions have to have the ability to adapt to the way the world changes. That's what they're intended to do. Otherwise, they die out.

And this is a case in point. The dissonance for Orthodox women between, for instance, being a top judge, a barrister, a doctor, and not having any role in their own religious environment is becoming increasingly difficult. And young women, particularly, are finding it difficult just to sit when every opportunity in the world is open to them, but not the opportunity to gain knowledge and to gain a position where that knowledge can be used to serve the community. Well, I'm sure, as she will do, Rachel Binstock will have something to say to that. Rachel, let me bring you into this.

You've also been yourself married to a rabbi for, I believe, 40 years, highly involved in women's education and supportive of women playing active roles in the community, but absolutely not as rabbis. Why not? Well, I think it's a little bit about semantics. Good morning and thank you for having me on think it's a little bit about semantics. Good morning and thank you for having me on. It's a little bit about semantics. As Lindsay pointed out, the role of rabbi has changed over the ages. And I was looking at a job description as an advert for a rabbi in the United Synagogue recently. And in the list of 16 pastoral duties that were required,

there were only five that could only be done by a rabbi, a male, because they were connected with running services in the synagogue. And of the 14 skills, there was one that was male connected. So if we look at the range of work that that a rabbi today does women are already doing most of it um there's just that and so and and i absolutely believe all the things that lindsay has said that it's really important to have women role models women in that pastoral sense women teaching women inspiring and make and enable being role models to other women of educated intelligence.

But just not in the ultimate role. But just not in the ultimate role. Well, mostly because Judaism is a way of life. It's not what happens in the synagogue on a Saturday morning. If I'm an Orthodox Jew, it covers every single thing that I do in my day. It colors it and it adds to it. So I'll start off my morning every single day before I get on with my day, as I did this morning,

with a prayer which acknowledges the importance of the Torah in my life. That's the source of all our religion, how it's important, it's my responsibility to engage with it and pass it on to those around me. I need to break in at this point. There's nothing in the Torah and the Old Testament that prohibits it, is there? There's nothing that prohibits female rabbis? Well, it depends what you're calling a rabbi. In the Torah, there weren't rabbis. Well, that's my point.

So the point is, and to take what we were just hearing from Lindsay, things have changed, things have moved. And in terms of a statement, a further statement and some understanding from the office of the chief rabbi, we've got this. It's important to understand that many of the rulings and practices that we follow within Orthodox Judaism cannot be traced to one specific quote from the Torah. Instead, over hundreds of years, the Torah commentaries developed rulings based on various elements of the text. But that was also, of course, within the context of when those people were living. So there's nothing actually saying, you know, people be listening to this at home, thinking, how could this woman not be up for women being rabbis if there's nothing prohibiting it, per se? Well, the title rabbi today conveys leader of community in a synagogal context.

And that's problematic to orthodoxy. It's always going to be because the synagogue is the place, is the place which is built for male worship, for male prayer. Women and men have different roles in prayer, different expression of prayer. When I said my prayers this morning, when the rain stopped. It was outside in my garden, surrounded by nature and the way that pleased me. A male is meant to say his prayers in a quorum of 10 other guys in a very specific way. I've got a much more flexible way. There are differences. There are differences in the way we express our prayers. So if we are not required to be part of a service in that way, we then also can't lead it.

That's where that comes from. That's the whole discussion around that. We don't have we don't believe that equality is sameness. Judaism celebrates difference and we have many different roles. If I decided that I wanted to be a priest, a Koh cohen i couldn't go and do the stuff that a priest does a priest in the in the biblical not not priest that we are priests serving in our synagogues but i couldn't uh no one can say i like the idea of what a priest does they stand up in the synagogue and so would you unless they were they were that way there are rules in a religion it's that that's that's what it is you you know so you would never you would never accept a female orthodox rabbi could you see it in your lifetime um personally not i can

see women doing most of the work of a rabbi and and not i i wouldn't mess with the title because it's too i i feel it's a waste of energy putting um going for a title which will always be problematic there's nothing blocking me from doing the things that I want to do. Except the fact you can't do the job that you've just described, which is the job where you can do absolutely everything. You just can't do some of that. I would never want to lead the synagogue. No, no, I wasn't asking if you wanted to. I was asking if you would be okay with Lindsay, for instance, doing it for you. And the answer seems to be no. Lindsay, you'll be much more familiar with what Rachie is saying than lots of our listeners.

Do you ever see a day where you could lead an Orthodox community as a rabbi in this country? Change is slow in traditional communities. So I'm not sure if I would ever get to that stage. No, I'm sure that I would be the best person. But it's already happening. There are women who were ordained at my institution in America who are functioning as rabbis of communities. Actually, amazingly... Of Orthodox Jewish communities.

Amazingly, Chief Rabbi Mervis's niece has just qualified in a course that doesn't use the title rabbi, but she has just been chosen to head a community in Israel. I should emphasise she is not using the title rabbi. Here we get down to perhaps, you know, listeners will know exactly what they feel about, for instance, allowing a woman to learn medicine, practice medicine, but never call herself a doctor. So my view is, yes, the title is very emotive. It's very difficult for people. They will get used to it. They got used to women doctors.

They got used to women lawyers. They got used to a women prime minister. People will get used to it in time. It won't be an easy road, but we have to start. You have to start. But do you think in terms of your situation now, are you going to be a rabbi without a flock, to put it like that? Are you going to go towards the reform movement because that might be the only place you can practice within the uk um i have every respect for the reform movement but it's not right for me i'm staying firmly within uh as a friend of

mine said i'm threatening to stay and not all rabbis head congregations many rap by many men just get rabbinic ordination as you would uh, later in life doing an MA in a subject you loved. Many, many male rabbis teach, and that's what they do. So I see my rabbinate primarily at the moment as teaching, as serving perhaps as a resource and a help for people who are reluctant for whatever reason to approach a male rabbi, who might have difficulty with that, who might just be frightened, who might be scared. So I want to provide something for those people who feel a bit rabbi-less. And if that means I'm not a heading an official community, I don't mind at all. I'm looking how to serve people who really, really need this new emerging voice in orthodoxy.

How does it make you feel that somebody like Rachie can't believe in your role, you as a woman Orthodox rabbi? And I know about the slow pace of change. And having done the research on this, I can see the need and I know that change will come whatever people feel now. And people will feel very differently in 20 years time. I'm quite sure of that. We have seen the most amazing revolutions in Orthodox Judaism already. People are unaware of the huge revolution in women's education. Women were often forbidden from learning Talmud, the central rabbinic document. Now there are quite literally tens of thousands of women who learn Talmud to an incredibly high level. So you're optimistic. I mean, even though we've just received this message saying reformed orthodoxy is an oxymoron, you remain optimistic because of some of the changes you've already seen.

Absolutely. All religious groups resist change, but it happens. And Rachel, it's going to happen. Can I just come in there and just say that I absolutely admire, respect and do most of the work that Lindsay is talking about

in the pastoral being there as a voice, as somebody to talk to, to give spiritual comfort to. I would go into a hospital if someone needed that help and I'd actually introduce myself as the rabbi because nobody knows the term Robertson, which is what I do call myself. As the rabbi's wife, sorry, just to say.

Yeah, that means rabbi's wife. But as a role, and I will be able to go and give spiritual support to somebody who's sick, as I did the other week, to a woman who had a failed suicide attempt and could give her all the spiritual comfort and support that she needed. I do that. I don't need to be called a rabbi to do it. I'm there as a listening ear. I'm here for women who want. But others do. It's all very well. I'm sorry to say this, but, you know but with your work and obviously very powerful work, but others do. And you are not necessarily the barometer for that. That's your opinion.

That's not my opinion. I'm presenting others' opinions. many hundreds of women that I deal with who are satisfied with having that small little bit not being called because that's part of traditional orthodoxy. And when Lindsay says that there are many orthodox, I think there are 40 or so so-called orthodox rabbis in the world so far. But you would say they're a zero, presumably. Well, people are entitled to call themselves what they want. But you don't recognise any of those forces? I would recognise them as rabbis. I would recognise them as wonderful women in the community who do great stuff.

But calling them rabbi goes one step too far. I think orthodoxy will always, mainstream orthodoxy, will always have a problem with that. Could I just, a final word, sorry, from you, Lindsay. Thank you very much, Rachel Winterstock. Could I just point out that there is one very central feature of the rabbi's job we haven't really talked about, and that is the issuing of halachic decisions,

legal decisions, Jewish legal decisions. And that actually is the prime definition of a rabbi. It's somebody who has been judged competent by their teachers that they may give advice and counsel on Jewish legal matters. And the title conveys that authority. I'm fascinated by the fact that Rachie says that she actually introduces herself as a rabbi to make her role comprehensible to people in a hospital concept. And I think that really, really says it all. Sometimes we need titles because they authorise us.

Nobody would go to a woman doctor who did not have the title of doctor. And there are questions about authority here, about sharing authority with women, of hearing women's voice in the Jewish legal discussion. It's new, it's growing. There are 49 rabbis from my institution. There are Orthodox female rabbis from other institutions in Israel. More are coming on board every year. I think some of the numbers there, Dr. Lindsay Taylor, good hearts, Rachie Binstock, thank you very much. Just to give a clear statement there from the place that you

used to teach, Joanna Greenway, the chief Executive of the London School of Jewish Studies said, for over 160 years, the school has been under the auspices and direction of the Chief Rabbi. This has been a long established and important relationship. It's meant we've had the privilege and responsibility of training and educating generation after generation of educators, leaders and teachers. We follow the rabbinic guidelines that form the basis of how our faith is practiced and operates in this country. This is a fundamental principle of our organisation and is widely understood by all those who engage with us. While we acknowledge and respect other viewpoints from across our community, our success and reputation as a leading education provider in the community has been connected to being under the auspices of the Chief Rabbi. We have as a result been able to

offer religious and non-religious education and training to thousands of individuals and those who make a positive impact on schools and synagogues across our community. Now Shirley J Thompson is an award-winning composer of scores for orchestra, opera, tv, film and ballet. She's the first woman in Europe to have composed and conducted a symphony within the last 40 years. New Nation Rising, a 21st century symphony, was performed and recorded by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and originally commissioned for the Queen's Golden Jubilee in 2002. She's just composed Emanation, a new work she's written for the disabled-led ensemble BSO Resound,

part of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. It receives its world premiere performance tonight at the Lighthouse Cultural Venue in Poole, in front of a socially distanced audience, and will also be live-streamed. Let's hear a clip. Thank you. Shirley, good morning. Hello, Emma. How are you? I'm okay. How are you? Lovely to be able to play Emanation there. Yes, nice to hear it.

Yes, I was going to say, tell us how it feels to hear it, but also what is it about? Yeah, well, I was commissioned by the BSO Resound and Dougie Scuff, who's the chief executive, to write a piece that commemorates 60 years of the independent living movement. Now, what surprised me when I was doing the research is to find that it came off the back of the civil rights movement and the second were about, we must do the things as persons, as disabled people. We need to promote the things that are important to us.

We don't want to be dictated to. These are the things that we need to happen. But there's one thing understanding, I suppose, that those feelings and those very strong emotions. And then there's another thing, finding music to express that. How do you do that? How do you go about creating a sound to try and express such strong feelings? Well, I look up to the sky and ask for inspiration.

Yeah, that really is a tricky bit. So I would say I was trying to create a piece that would show off the excellence of the musicianship of all the wonderful performers in the resound ensemble so I was thinking of being very virtuosic in my writing for the instruments but at the same time I was trying to think of ways that I could bring the ensemble together to create this idea of critical mass and the whole independent living movement coming together through the 60s

to the dynamic force that it is today. So it was really the way the movement has grown that inspired me musically. And the sounds, the instruments we're hearing there tell us a bit the actual sounds yes well we have the um the violin um the cello the um clarinet the linn instrument which was i was writing for in a totally for the first time, the flute and the marimba and percussion. And so it was a way of really unifying all of those quite disparate instruments in an ensemble.

And I tried to make each section conversational. So you'll hear conversations between the violin and the cello. You'll hear musical conversations between the flute and the clarinet. And then you'll hear them all coming together with the marimba and the lin instrument being a kind of unifier of all of the instruments. Well, from what we could hear, it certainly sounded very beautiful and very affecting. So congratulations for that. Thanks, Emma. I know that you're from a Jamaican background.

What music did you grow up with and how did that influence you? Oh, hugely. So I was very fortunate to grow up with the sounds of Blue Beat and ska and reggae and soul, Aretha Franklin, Tchaikovsky. My mother's mother was always whistling Tchaikovsky. Because, of course, in Jamaica, you have the whole range of music on radio. You have classical music, you have gospel music, you have soul music. In fact, reggae might be fifth on the list in terms of what you actually hear.

You hear a lot of rock music. So in the house, I was fortunate to listen to lots of Jamaican music and very heavily influenced by Jamaican music and ska and bluebeats and so on, Bunny Whaler, Bob Marley, so on. But at the same time in the house, we had lots of classical music. I grew up performing in lots of orchestras, playing Bach, Beethoven and so on. But at the same time, I equally loved the popular music that I had, the Macula at home. Yes. And I was going to say, you also commemorated Windrush, didn't you, in an artistic way?

I did. Thank you. Yes, I wrote a psalm to Windrush using Psalm 84. I was brought up in the Anglican tradition and I'm now a Methodist, but yes, I do use the Bible quite significantly in my work. And I wrote a psalm to Windrush based on Psalm 84 because a lot of the Caribbean community religion is central to the way that they lead their lives. 90% probably of the culture, a very important part of the Caribbean culture. Do you feel pressure when you come to that blank page? I was thinking how it must feel. You know, I did say about you having that amazing accolade of being the first woman in Europe to have composed and conducted a symphony within the last 40 years. Is that pressure something that you struggle with or can you handle it?

Because once you've got the talent for it, you start building it and it's layers. I can remember one month I needed to write something for a Queen Elizabeth Hall premiere and nothing came to me for a whole month. I'd get up at seven o'clock in the morning, get to the piano and try to get something out. Nothing came for a whole month. So, you know, it's a difficult thing, this creativity. But in the end, I wrote the piece in about a week. And it's probably the fact that it was spinning around in my mind for a month and then something came.

A deadline helps. Yes. Well, you've certainly created something, I'm sure, which will be very special this evening. Thank you. It will be a socially distanced audience and live streamed, as I said, and it's called Emanation. And how do you feel about the sort of way that we're having to perform at the moment? That's also quite an unusual situation, isn't it? Very much so. We have masks on all the time.

But I would also like to say that we're doing this because Allianz Music Insurance have provided the funds for us to stage this and my commission. So I'd like to give a big shout to them. And to all those people, you know, that sponsor music at this time. We would be in a very, very sad situation where we've not been able to perform and have this commission was should have been formed over a year ago. We've not been able to perform it. And what has been great is the creativity that has resulted um we've found ways of performing online um which has been terrific and tonight we can hear a live stream or see a

live stream of the whole thing which um the wonderful people at Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra are preparing at the moment all the technicians and engineers and sound engineers are very busy setting things up but this is a whole new world that we've come into. It is. Well, thank you for providing sort of the soundtrack to it. Shirley J. Thompson, all the best. Thanks so much. Lovely to talk to you there. Now, I did promise you right at the start of the programme,

you're still sending a lot of messages in about our discussion to do with this draft report from the World Health Organisation with regards to women of childbearing age, to quote their report, and around use of alcohol. And I just say we try and talk to somebody from the World Health Organization. They have got back to us. And I can now speak to Dag Reckfer,

who is from the World Health Organization's Alcohol, Drugs and Addictive Behaviors Unit. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for joining us today. A lot of our listeners, I have to say, getting in touch saying that this line in this report, a draft report, lacks nuance by talking about women of childbearing age not drinking alcohol. What do you mean by that? Thank you very much. Yes, we posted this draft

yesterday morning and we see that it's already had headlines in the UK. And this is a really important issue. So I'm really grateful that we could be here on this program and discuss it. And I think before we start, we really need to hit hard on the key message here, and that is that three million people die each year from alcohol-related harm, and most of them are men. Eight percent of global deaths among males are linked to alcohol, and only a little bit more than 2% of female deaths.

Men drink three times more than women in the world. So the real prevention efforts have to be targeted towards males, for sure. So let's get that question out of the picture and then discuss this really important issue around the fetal alcohol spectrum disorders and fetal alcohol syndrome. And in fact, we are in a process now, and this is a draft, and we need to emphasize that this is a draft. In February last year, our member states, our countries, and especially countries from

low- and middle-income countries, said that WHO, you are doing far too little on alcohol. You need to speed up. You need to do something. And we have embarked on a very long consultation process. Last year, we had the working document up for consultation. We received 1,400 pages of views from more than 250 entities, organizations, and countries. And many of those submissions focused on that our working document had too little focus on fetal alcohol spectrum disorders and fetal alcohol syndrome. So we tried to correct that by including it into the draft. And let's discuss that issue today and the interpretation of it. This is a consultation process. This is the first draft.

And we will have the same thorough consultation process on this draft as we had on the working document. And then we will produce the second draft. If I may, I understand it's a long process, but I suppose we've had quite a few messages saying it's very important to mention fetal alcohol syndrome, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. We've had a message from Jean here to give you an example from one of our listeners. But what is in the report goes further than those who are pregnant, than women who are pregnant.

It talks about women of childbearing age. And one of our professors that we were speaking to earlier from University of Stirling was saying that is an ill-advised line. So even if this is a draft, do you regret putting that in? Because, of course, women can be childbearing from the age of, I don't know, 11 or 12 through to 50 and beyond. Yeah, well, it depends how you read the sentence. And this is all about how you read it and how you interpret it. And I think it's important that if you really don't want to, if you want to focus on the bad things, it can be interpreted in a bad way. We fully agree with that.

But if you read the sentence as it is now, basically what it says is that appropriate attention should be given to prevention of drinking among pregnant women and women of childbearing age. So it says appropriate attention should be given to prevention of drinking from women at childbearing age. And, of course, if you then say that, yeah, okay, this is a complete recommendation for all women in childbearing age to stop drinking, people are free to interpret it. That we will really make sure in the next draft that it will not be interpreted like this, and it will really focus on the issue.

And one of the main issues is that, especially in the embryonic phase, that means the seven, the eight first weeks of pregnancy, when women often do not know that they're pregnant, that is when the real, real considerable harm can happen to defectors. So if women are planning to become pregnant or if women are engaging in unprotected sex and can become pregnant, they need to know the incredible harm that can happen to the potential future child. So that's the main focus. But I suppose I was trying to understand why that had been included at all. It became included because we had too little focus on this issue in our first underworking document. And organisations around the world said, WHO, you need to have a much more stronger focus on this issue.

And we need to get this right. No, no, I understand on the issue, but I'm talking about women of childbearing age, as you put it. Why include them at all if you're only talking about when they're having children? Why make such a large catch-all? And I know you can interpret it differently, but it's your chance to respond to that, which is the question that a lot of our listeners have had. Exactly, because it is in the childbearing age that women first and foremost get children and it is this stage they need to be aware of this issue and especially in the early phase of pregnancy if you are if you

are protecting yourself if you do not engage in sex and if you do not plan to have any children of course we need to we cannot say that you should not be drinking. But that's how it could come across. That's how it could come across from this. And I suppose we're at a time when you need the World Health Organisation for someone who believes in it to not be discredited or leave itself open to be discredited. And as I said,

this is a draft and this is something which is in our consideration. Do you think you'll get rid of that line? Forgive me because I'm'll get rid of do you think you'll get rid of that line forgive me because i'm short of time do you think you'll get rid of that line in when it's a when it's the full report because of the response you've had to that particular phrase well if you say get rid of that sounds like it's something wrong we need to get it more clear what is meant with appropriate attention and that we will clearly work on in the second draft so So a clarification is a fair... Not a clarification, but really make people understand

what was meant with that sentence, whether it will be there or not. And people need to be aware of the danger of drinking. I know that's why you came on. So thank you very much for coming on. And we managed to squeeze you in there. And I'm sorry if it felt slightly rushed, but that's because we wanted to make sure we heard your voice on the program. Dag, thank you very much. Dag Rekva there from the World Health Organization's Alcohol, Drugs and Addictive Behaviors Unit.

I promise we try and we did and there you go. Now I did also say we were going to talk to you about what is happening in Pakistan where it seems to be difficult and too difficult for women to get well-fitting bras and pants. And this is something the BBC Urdu reporter Sahar Baloch has been investigating. She's joining me now from Karachi, along with Kamar Zayman, who's in Faizalabad. He is the head of operations for the underwear manufacturer Marmi Clothing, who are trying to bring change in this area. Sahar, what's the problem here?

Why is it so difficult for women in Pakistan to get comfy bras and knickers? Yeah. Hi. Thank you for having me on the show. And I'm in Islamabad, not Karachi. Oh, excuse me. I was told that. Forgive me. Yeah. Not at all. OK. So the problem is that, you know, for a lot of women over here, the problem is accessibility to better quality underwear and also a taboo of not being able to speak about it openly, not being able to speak about their needs openly, whether it's within their families or, you know, even of course they do speak with their friends, but when it comes to, you know, speaking openly about it, that is an issue and that is a taboo. So that's why, you know,

the demand is there, but they are not getting the supplies. They are not getting a better quality underwear at all. And interestingly, Mark Moore is somebody who tried to get into an undergarment shop and he was stopped by security guards. And that's how most of us reporters got to know about it and about the issue. And of course, you do think about it and you do listen to these stories, but you never think like how close to home they can come at times, you know, and how it can be a problem. So this was one way that I got to know about it. And, you know, that's why I thought of investigating it. And is it also because then the discussions, which we'll get to, I hope, with Kumar in a moment, but is it the discussions then to even find areas of the shops where this can be openly, where these sorts of products can be openly sold? Those discussions are also not happening. Yes, because, you know, the products that are being openly sold, like for instance,

there are wholesale markets across Pakistan where undergarments are openly displayed, but those are cheap in quality and they are not good to wear at all. But they are openly displayed, but those are cheap in quality and they are not good to wear at all. But they are openly displayed and they are available to a large, you know, number of women. But the other ones, the expensive ones, they are put in a, you know, shop, inside a shop, in a tinted windowed shop, and nobody can, you know, go in as long as, you know, they're not women, they're not allowed inside. So these are like, you know, some of the discussions that do take place. And there are women who are quite frustrated about this as well. Like, for instance, if I even give you my own example, I grew up, you know, asking cousins and friends, whoever was coming from abroad or any other country to bring in some undergarments for me as well, you know, because you do understand that, you know, the quality would be good, and they would be able to

sustain it for a long time so the problem i think uh over here and i think which also can be reson can resonate uh in uh like across the world is that it is it is mostly the men who are making these decisions like what kind of an undergarment a woman should wear and it should look sexy and it should have laces and it should have all sorts of things whereas when you speak with women they only want comfort yes nothing else very very big difference there to point out come on let's bring you in as a as a man trying to sell women's underwear to brands run by other men how difficult is this uh thank you for having me uh so uh regarding marketing when we went to our potential clients like you can say brands, we found

that in meetings at different places. So as there, you know, when we went to meet, we had any kind of, you know, the key position handling. So their colleagues were women. And, you know, whenever in discussion, there is a woman in the office. So they were feeling uncomfortable while talking and they were looking at each other like, you know, like shy. So which is, you know, results makes everyone else uncomfortable to talk about bras and underwears. And another thing is, so yes, they're excited to have this product. They want to have it, but they're asking us how to sell it.

Like they said, we have to keep it separate where only women can go inside, where you can say women are allowed only. And we feel that, you know, it's kind of a restriction like for them, or you can say they feel like they can't display this product around. So even when they take it, which I know you received some good news that Cardi, one of the biggest retailers of female fashion in Pakistan, which also has stores here in the UK,

has decided to trial the sale of your underwear in around 10 of its stores. It'll be about where they put it. So it's quite sad in a way, even though there might be change coming, that it's still so difficult. Yes, it is. And you know, I think...

Sorry, Sahar, sorry. Yeah, so what's actually difficult is, you know, to have conversations about it. I think after all these years, we are unable to talk about, you know, what is discomforting and, you know, what should be, you know, what comfort means to people and especially women, I think. So, yes, it is a very, you know, uncomfortable discussion to have. But at the same time, it is the one that is the most needed at the moment. That's almost what Women's Hour does on the tin. Uncomfortable discussions, but the ones that are most needed. Thank you very much indeed for your time today and for talking to us. So many messages have also come in around our issues to do with health, but also what's going on with Orthodox Judaism and female leadership roles. We'll come back to those if we can. And thank you very much for your company today. Woman's Hour, we'll be back with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you

so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Welcome to Descendants, the series which looks into our lives and our past and asks something pretty simple. How close are each of our lives to the legacy of Britain's role in slavery and who does that mean our lives are linked to? Narrated by me, Yersa Daly Ward, we hear from those who have found themselves connected to each other through this history. Whoever you are, wherever you are in Britain, the chances are this touches your life somewhere, somehow. Descendants from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.