Woman's Hour - Shirley Williams, New Mums & Jury Service, Flexible Working

Episode Date: April 13, 2021

Baroness Shirley Williams has died at the age of 90. She was a titan of British politics and a true trailblazer for women. She appeared on Woman's Hour many times and so we remember her by listening to the archive. We also speak to her good friend, Baroness Julia Neuberger.What do you do if you've just had a baby and you've been called for jury service? We speak to Zoe Stacey who recently received a letter telling her she had to do jury service but she was still breast feeding. We describes her struggle to be excused.We're talking about getting back into the swing of things now lockdown is gradually lifting. Are you desperate to get back to normal or are you feeling nervous and anxious? We talk to Dr. Nihara Krause, a consultant clinical psychologist.  It's 18 years that parents have been able to request flexible working. After that the 'right to request' was made available to everyone, regardless of whether you're a parent or not. So what's been achieved and Is there still a stigma attached to it? We're joined by Sarah Jackson OBE, who's a workplace consultant and visiting professor at Cranfield University School of Management, and Rhonda D'Ambrosio who's used 'right to request' when it started.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Are you back up and at them? With restrictions easing across the UK, were you one of the people who just couldn't wait to go shopping and pop down the pub yesterday? Or are you finding leaving your bubble a lot more daunting? Or can you not be bothered?

The pages of my diary, yes, I still use a paper one, remain rather empty. And I'm feeling quite tired at the thought of filling them like they once were. And yet, we probably know that we do need to socialise again and disrupt some of those less natural patterns we've developed over the last 12 months. I don't know, I feel like I've forgotten how to plan, but I need to get back into the swing of things. How about you? How can we get back into the swing? Women, like it or not, are often the planners in chief. Have you perhaps enjoyed having a break from the social treadmill? Are you craving a full fat return? Tell us how you're feeling today. If you're limbering back up to get back out there if you already have been perhaps you've been waiting for this because you need those interactions it's a mixed bag of emotions it seems and we want to hear where you are with this and what you've been doing or what

you're planning 84844 is the number you need to text do check what the the cost would that be on social media it's bbc woman's hour at b BBC Woman's Hour, or email us through our website. Tell us where you are with this and perhaps what you did yesterday or maybe you did nothing at all and you've got that fear of missing out, FOMO as it's called, for short, but you need to let us know how you're doing and how you're feeling. Also on today's programme, the new mother fighting the jewellery system, took on the jewellery system and won.

We'll hear a bit more about that and perhaps how it could affect your life or could have affected your life. Past tense. And this month marks 18 years since we all had the legal right to request flexible working. No surprises. It was women leading the charge. But how have things changed? We'll find out. But first, yesterday it was announced that a titan of British politics and a true trailblazer for women bursting onto the political scene, Baroness Shirley Williams, the Liberal Democrat peer, had died aged 90. Her career in politics spanned more than 50 years. Originally a Labour MP, she served in the governments of Harold Wilson and James Callaghan in the 60s and 70s, eventually becoming Education Secretary,

one of the first women to hold a cabinet post. Disillusioned with Labour's drift to the left under Michael Foot, she quit the party and became one of the Gang of Four who founded the Social Democratic Party, the SDP. She later went on to support that party's merger with the Liberal Party, which led to the creation of the Liberal Democrats in 1988. Yesterday, Ed Davey, the Liberal Democrat leader,

paid tribute to Shirley as an inspiration to millions, a liberal lion and a true trailblazer, which she really was. She appeared on Woman's Hour many, many times over the years. Here she is talking to Jenny Murray back in 2009. Shirley started off talking about getting into politics in the first place. My father, who was always trying to advance my career, went up to Nancy Astor, who was a very grand and very off-putting lady. And my father said proudly,

my daughter wants to become an MP. And she looked at me with total contempt. She said, not with the hair, she won't. And of course she was right, because the thing that shadowed my whole life in politics was my blasted hair. You never got the press to stop talking about my hair. So she was quite right, but also she was quite wrong.

There were very few women in the House when you were elected. I think it was 29 at the time you first went in. But you say there was mutual support, cross-party mutual support. How did that show itself? I'll give you two examples. I mean, one rather famous individual example was when I first became a cabinet minister and I was assaulted by all Tory MPs in the House because they had to show that the reason that prices were going up

was entirely due to me. I should say this was about two weeks after the election had happened, so it couldn't really be due to me, but they wanted to make that point. And so I felt like St Sebastian. I was attacked from all sides. And I noticed out of the corner of my eye, Mrs Thatcher, who at the time was Shadow Secretary for the Environment, standing behind a Speaker's chair,

watching intently in the way only Mrs Thatcher, who at the time was Shadow Secretary for the Environment, was standing behind a Speaker's chair watching intently in the way that only Mrs Thatcher could. And I couldn't quite work out why. And afterwards, and this was an important part of the relationship between women MPs, we had something called the Lady Members' Room. So it was not segregated in party terms, but in gender terms. And I went to the Lady Members' Room, and Mrs Thatcher was, as she often was actually, ironing a dress. Great secret about Mrs Thatcher was she was always ironing things. And she said to me, I said to her,

you know, Margaret, why were you there? Because, you know, we weren't looking after prices and things, we were looking after the environment. I know you're very short of time. And she looked at me very sharply and she said, I wanted to see how you would do. She said, you did all right, but after all, we can't let them get the better of us.

The first and last time I ever heard her make what one might call a feminist remark. The other example is when we were all, we Labour women, were all having a hard time getting a bill through and we were having vote after vote after vote, which meant being crowded together in the lobbies, rather like a Russia underground train, men and women alike voting for the government. And it was very crowded. And afterwards, one of our members said, one

of our lady members said that she felt that she'd been very severely pinched in the division room. Then we discovered after the second division that two other women had. And so it went on until about seven out of about twenty had been pinched, quite badly pinched, it really hurt and so we decided, we got together and we thought what were we going to do about this because we didn't know who the pincher was and we decided on

the next day when there was going to be a lot of divisions we'd all wear stiletto heels which were very fashionable at the time and it hurt like heck if you actually plunged a stiletto into somebody else's foot. We all agreed we would step sharply backwards. And I remember the next, the day after that, we all did that,

the day after that, they came into the tea room, a deeply crippled male member of Parliament, and we all went up to him and sympathised like mad with him and said how sad we were to see this, and he said very crossly that he had gout, but we knew he hadn't got gout. He'd got revenge.

And the pension stopped. That's the pension stopped. What really surprised me was you say, like many women of my generation, I thought of myself as not quite good enough for the very highest positions in politics. Why not? I could perfectly well see myself aspiring to being the second in charge of almost everything. The deputy headmistress, the deputy matron, the deputy prime minister, but not the prime minister, head teacher and so forth.

And you know, the funny thing, Jenny, was when I was education secretary, it was completely borne out when I discovered that when we had comprehensive schools coming in, which often combined two schools, each single sex, a single sex boys school, a single sex girls school, I couldn't understand why so few of the women heads then put in for the top job, headed the total co-educational comprehensive school. perceiving male leaders as in a sense giant size and themselves as just ordinary human size. And what I slowly learnt, but it took me most of my political life to learn it, was that those giant-sized men had projected a giant from themselves, but they were not themselves giants either. Great to hear Shirley Williams's voice there again. Well, earlier this morning I spoke to her good friend,

Baroness Julia Neuberger, reflected on some of those themes mentioned there. She's a member of the House of Lords. And I asked her how she first met Shirley. Well, originally, we met rather strangely through my aunt by marriage's stepmother, in the way that one does. So I was really quite a little girl at the time. I must have been 12 or 13. But we met properly at the very beginning of the most wonderful, most generous of people and an amazing person to, you know, go walking with, have to stay, go and visit. So when she was married to Dick Neustadt and she was on, you know, on Cape Cod during the summer, you know, we would go and stay with them. And it was just fantastic. She was a generous, spirited, funny, energetic, wonderful friend. How are you feeling today? I'm feeling sad, but I'm also in some ways relieved

because the last part was pretty horrid. And she didn't like being in a care home. And the year of COVID, when you couldn't visit, you couldn't make contact, and she wasn't really sure who you were, it was difficult. Yes. Well, I'm very sorry for your loss and for all of her friends and family. And I think that loss in the year that you've just described will strike a chord with many. Absolutely. Absolutely. And she would have been, I mean, had she been able to be

the sort of Shirley that she once was, she would have been somebody who'd be comforting for the nation. She would have known what to say. And she would have had this voice of saying, this is really terrible. We have to learn to live with it. We have to find new ways to grieve where we can't necessarily support each other physically. I wondered if you could just take us back to how lonely it would have been as a woman in politics when she was coming up and smashing through all sorts of ceilings. She would have had quite a tough time.

I mean, she was very resolute, Shirley, and ideas mattered to her. So she didn't mind having to take a swipe at what quite a lot of the men were saying. But she would have been lonely. There wouldn't have been very many people who were really her friends. But she did have a lot of male friends. She was good at being a friend. She was rather a loyal friend, actually. And even when she disagreed with people and even when they were across the political divide, she would stay friends with them.

She was good at making people, men included, be very loyal to her, partly because she treated them so well. She didn't treat people as her inferiors, but it would have been lonely. She was one of the very few. And she would have found quite a lot of what went on in the house, particularly in the commons, just disgraceful. All the stuff about, you know, young mothers with babies, no provision at all for children. The whole idea that you somehow had to pretend you didn't have children. That did infuriate her and would have continued to infuriate her. And she did think that the generation after her, of whom I'm one, and though I only stood for Parliament, I never became an MP, but she did think that we had it a lot easier and we did. Yes. I mean, one of the women that would have been alongside her, and she talked about being

in this sort of area that was sequestered for them, was Margaret Thatcher. Indeed. If you had Margaret Thatcher, she would have known Barbara Castle. There would have been a few. And she came from a family that was very political. And so she would have known how it played. But that doesn't make it less lonely. And the trouble is that if there are only a few,

and I know that from being a female rabbi, if there are only a few, it doesn't mean that, you know, you just take refuge in the few. You can't work like that. You can't make a career like that. You can't build alliances like that. So she made her alliances mainly with men rather than with other women. But she always had a sneaking respect for the other women who'd been tough enough to stand and go for it and continue to fight. She was very impressed by Helene Heyman.

I remember when Helene got into Parliament as a very young woman, very young mother. She was very impressed by how Helene handled, you know, being a speaker in the Lord. She just she loved watching women do those things. Yes, I mean, she was a rare thing, a popular politician that seemed able to speak her mind. I had the joy of interviewing her a few times, and she would really light up the studio, and you did not have to fight to get her real view, which can be the way with certain politicians of this age. Yes, and she wasn't remotely embarrassed if she didn't agree with her own party. I think that's one of the things

that we all enjoyed so much about her. She would tell you what she thought. And there were some things that were very deep within her. So there was her Catholicism, and I certainly had my issues with her over gay marriage. I remember that very well.

There was her really strong internationalism. And people think of her as being sort of particularly pro-European, but that's not quite right. She was passionately internationalist in her view of the world. And she would take anybody on and would just say that being a little Englander wasn't a very sensible position to take and indeed would have made our public services impossible to run.

She was quite straightforward about her views, and that's one of the things that made her so delightful to be with. Did she suffer from a lack of confidence in any way? Because I'm quite struck by the fact, having been a leading female figure of her time, she didn't stand for the party leadership of either Labour or the STP when she had the chance to break the mould. And in fact, that's been talked about only today, earlier this morning on the Today programme, Lord Owen, another of the Gang of Four who set up the STP, said she really should have been the leader but was reluctant. Why do you think that was?

I think she was reluctant for a mixture of reasons. I mean, some of that stuff I think she found quite unattractive. I mean, there were bits of politics, and she was a real politician, you know, to her fingertips. But there were bits of politics that she found quite unappealing. She didn't really like the ruthlessness. So I suspect that she wasn't sure she wanted to be the ruthless leader. And also, she did actually quite like disagreeing with her own party on occasion.

So that would have made it difficult, too. I'm not sure that lack of confidence is quite right. I think she had quite a lot of confidence. She had a great deal of confidence in her own views. I think she may have had some distaste for the leadership position. She was leader in the Lord. She did do some of those things, but I'm not sure that she actually liked some of that enough. I was also just thinking about what he said, what Lord Owen said around the media undermining her at times,

describing her as messy, always late, the way that they wrote about her not being perhaps an enjoyable experience on any level. I think she minded about that more than she would have ever said. But she wasn't prepared to just conform. You know, she didn't in the end say, OK, you know, I'm going to wear the smart suits and I'm always going to be, you know, I'm always going to be perfectly quaffed. That wasn't her. And indeed, one of the joys about much later in life with her going walking or something like that is she felt completely relaxed just to walk around and, you know, get her hair wet when it was raining and not worry about it.

And I think that's admirable. I really I love the fact that, you know, she she thought that some of those things were just fripperies and she wasn't going to have, you know, she wasn't going to be doing with it. But I'm sure that earlier on some of that was hurtful. I just wanted to bring our listeners minds to what you were describing in terms of the behaviour of people around her when she was getting into politics. I mean, there's some fantastic stories in her own book about, you know, repeatedly punching a burly man in the stomach when she was assailed by a racist mob at a rally when she was with her first husband, the philosopher Bernard Williams. She said it was rather exciting. But as an MP, she did tire. It's in the Times Diary this morning of having her bottom pinched in crowded division lobbies. And she told female MPs to wear appropriate footwear, quote, few things hurt more than stiletto heels driven into

the foot, she advised. Yes, and other things. She was very good at teaching young women candidates, you know, how to use their elbows when necessary. She was quite fierce. She'd been taught to be quite fierce, I think, at school and indeed by her mother. And she didn't mind telling people just where to get off. And I don't think it was only using her heel to when people pinched her bottom. I mean, I think she was quite capable of turning around to them and saying, stop that. And I think there's nothing more embarrassing for a man than to be told to stop that when he's in a crowd of other people. And it's perfectly obvious what he's been doing.

Yes, because you're talking about Vera Brittain, the writer, the great feminist and a huge figure herself in her own right. Just a final thought from you around the SDP and what it appealed to women. How did it appeal to women to come forward perhaps into politics? Because that's one of her legacies, isn't it? It's one of her legacies. And indeed, I mean, I would say that I was part of that. I mean, I've been in the Labour Party, but not, I mean, I've been in the Labour Club, but not hugely active.

She was a great encourager of women. So she, as one of the Gang of Four, was absolutely instrumental in encouraging a whole generation of women to come forward. Sue Slitman, Polly Toynbee, I'm one of them, Sue Stapley, there are lots of others. And lots of people who, you know, had never done anything political in their lives at all before, but were inspired by her, by the Gang of Four, because it was three men with her. But the fact that the first National Committee had, you know, four national places for women, four national places for men to try and make it possible for women to rise in the ranks quickly. She minded about that. And she, I don't know,

because I never asked her what she wanted her legacy to be, but I'm pretty sure she wanted part of her legacy to be that women felt able to do things that they hadn't been able to do before in politics. And in that, I think she succeeded. She had also a real twinkle in her eye.

I had the very unusual experience of sitting behind her while she watched a play of her life a few. I had the very unusual experience of sitting behind her while she watched a play of her life a few years ago at the Donmar Warehouse about the setting up of the Gang of Four, the creation of them and the SDP and the remaining ones. And I interviewed them as a three.

And it really was just all the way through the interview, you know, that twinkle was just there because she knew exactly what she wanted to say. And I was looking through 58 times on Question Time as a performer, as a communicator, that twinkle was just there because she knew exactly what she wanted to say. And I was looking through 58 times on Question Time. As a performer, as a communicator, that charisma, you could feel it. And you could watch her charm people.

I remember she came to stay with us once in Ireland and my mother-in-law was there too. And Shirley did a fantastic job on convincing my mother-in-law, you know, that actually she might have voted SDP in the old days, which she certainly wouldn't have done. But she just made her laugh. I mean, she was able to see the funny side and to make people laugh and also to argue her case quite passionately. So while she was making you laugh, you also began to believe absolutely that the point of view she was taking was correct. She was a brilliant, brilliant performer, but she was also particularly brilliant because she really believed what she was saying. Baroness Julia Neuberger talking about her friend, Baroness Shirley Williams, the Liberal

Democrat peer who died yesterday. Now, you've been getting in touch about the idea of getting back into the swing of things. It may not have been perfect weather yesterday for popping out to the pub for a very cold drink or going to the shops, but if you believe the papers with their reports this morning or the images flooding social media, some people just cannot wait to burst out of their bubble. Stores with queues around the block,

bars having reported to turn people away to maintain COVID capacity rules. Were you one of those desperate to get back into the swing of things? Or are you feeling like you can't quite do it? A real range of messages coming in that I'll come to in just a moment. But let's speak first to Dr. Nahara Krauss, consultant clinical psychologist. Good morning. Good morning.

Do you recognise this dilemma people are grappling with? Yes, absolutely. You've got people on several ends of the spectrum, some feeling very anxious, nervous, too, can't wait to go. And what do you think about people saying, you know, maybe I don't need to get back out there, and yet they've also felt lonely? What do you think is going on there? I think that the issue is, is that we know that loneliness is a big feeder into negative mental health. And one of the things with the pandemic is that although being at home has felt restraining and constraining, it also has created a sense of security for many people. And as we

start to step out, it's easy to start to feel unsafe. And our bodies and our brains natural reaction to feeling unsafe is to generate a sense of anxiety in us. So it's easy to say, I feel a bit anxious, I feel a bit nervous, I'll just stay indoors and do what I've been familiar doing over the last period of time. Would your advice be though, and of course, I'm very mindful, I can see this on the messages, some people are still feeling that they need to be very cautious with their health, they may have certain conditions,

all that just to one side for a moment, for people who are either vaccinated or well enough to now start following the government guidelines as we ease, do you think it's important for them to kind of burst through that comfort zone? It's very important to try and burst through that comfort zone. It's very important to try and burst through that comfort zone. Do it very gradually. Do it step at a time.

Perhaps if you're really nervous, link up with a friend and obviously keep appropriately socially distanced. But keep that communication going. One of the things that's important is to build a confidence that may have been held in abeyance whilst you've been at home. And the way that we will regain our confidence is by facing things that we find fearful, being able to see that we can have impact on that and just reconnecting really with ourselves as well as with other people. Get that diary open and put some plans into it. Absolutely. Okay. But you know, there's also laziness at play here. It's not all anxiety, I'm sure. Yes, you're right. I think for some people, it's been very comfortable to be at home. You know, we've not had to dress to go out. We've not had to. It's been very, very much at ease.

And so, you know, I think, think again let's try and burst a bit out of that comfort bubble because the comfort bubble might feel secure might feel enjoyable but actually laziness doesn't serve us well either and we need to activate ourselves to go out. Yes no that's good you're giving me a good talking to and anyone else who might fall into that. It's very interesting what you said about confidence though and this message that's come in from Rachel, Reverend Canon Rachel, who's got in touch to say, I retired at the end of June last year so when people talk about getting back to it I have no idea of what it looks like. There's been no opportunity to embrace travel or joining groups that we'd anticipated. Standing on the threshold of the open door is now quite scary

and this is from a capable woman who less than a year ago was responsible for a large Church of England parish. Yes, I think what we have to keep in mind is over the period of all the many lockdowns we've had, people have experienced a great number of changes. So it might be that there's been changes in terms of working practice, which will have an effect on your identity, changes in terms of friendships, changes in terms of economic safety, or indeed multiple losses. And for many, all of those changes will have been held in abeyance over lockdown, and you will only be facing a new you and a new normal now. So it's very easy to feel at loss, to be uncertain about what the next steps might be. And what I would say is take stock of what you've gone through and really start to think a bit about what was I expecting when I retired? What was I expecting when change happened to me

before that? What might be my new normal now? And how might I slowly, step by step, start to plan that way forward. Slowly seems to be quite key in part of that advice, but also realising what you've gone through. And I think that's an excellent point. You know, there's a lot of change in a regular year, but the year that we've just had really has changed quite a bit for people. Dr. Nahara Krauss, thank you for your time. Consultant, clinical psychologist there. I just want to read a couple more messages. Really interesting to see what you've been doing, how you've been feeling. Victoria says, before the pandemic, like many of us, myself and my young family, had a packed calendar. What I have learned that in the last year, while some of those events bring joy, the feeling of having had a good laugh and a connection with close friends.

It also adds a lot of hassle. And that's something that I've been reflecting on. You know, FOMO drove our calendar, fear of missing out. Now I'm going to embrace JOMO and savour the joy of missing out while I snuggle with my family. So some mixed emotions there, but also some learnings perhaps. Jill says, yesterday I walked four miles with a friend to a lovely pub garden where we sat in the sunshine beside a stream celebrating with a glass of beer and a bowl of chips. That's literally my idea of heaven and you've described it as such

it was very peaceful because of cancellations due to snow and also we presume because most were in the shops particularly important for my friend who's been shielding for a year some more messages though on that in talking about how important it is to remember things are not back to complete normal you know kate says sarah k says, suddenly things aren't just suddenly fine. Also, I'm an introvert. Socialising fills me with horror. Keep your messages coming in. A lot of you saying you've got mixed emotions, but also very happy to try and get back out there.

But if you've had a baby, can you cast your mind back to eight weeks after giving birth? Sleep deprived, grappling with your own body, as well as the baby's unrelenting demands? Perhaps you're in that moment right now or close to it. Would you feel at that particular point like serving on a jury or even be able to do it to the best of your ability? Our next guest didn't and has hit the headlines after her application to be excused from jury service was rejected.

Zoe Stacey has a baby boy who's just two months old. She's breastfeeding him and she recently received a letter telling her she had to do jury service. Zoe, what happened when you received this? How did that make you feel and your response? Initially, I was excited. I think it's a really important civic duty and I do look forward to one day serving. But I thought it would be quite easily resolved by just explaining I'd had my son recently. I was breastfeeding and it wasn't a good time. What happened in response? They emailed me back to say that my request for excusal had been rejected and that my next course of action would be to appeal.

Or I could defer it by giving them three Mondays in the next 52 weeks where I could serve for 10 days. And how did that make you feel? That was quite stressful at that point. I didn't really understand the reasoning behind it and I shortly got an email after that one saying that I needed to attend in May so they didn't seem to realise that there was no way that I could attend in May. I understand that, you know, there is a process that we have to follow. And fortunately, after I appealed it, they did email me last night to say they'd upheld the appeal. But it shouldn't really take a Twitter campaign and an appeal to see sense. Yes, because so as you've just said, that has been the latest from the Ministry of Justice, as this all comes from, I suppose, at the very highest

level. We've got a statement saying breastfeeding mothers can defer jury service for one year and subsequently apply for a full exemption, while its vital juries represent a cross section of society. We're urgently reviewing our guidance to make it clearer that new mothers should be able to serve at a time that is right for them. And yet you would think perhaps that this was already in place. It's definitely not something that's been made clear. I did email them shortly after and I got a response from someone again saying I needed to defer it, but there was no explanation. I didn't want to defer it for 52 weeks and have to attend.

I don't particularly want to leave my baby for 10 days in the next year. So it wasn't really very clear. And now you're in a situation where you've been excused? I am, yes. Okay. And your response to this, you then put it out on social media, as you mentioned, what did you get from other parents and what had they been saying to you? Because you're not alone with this. No, there's no consistency. Some people have been able to defer, some people haven't. Some people have been excused and some people haven't. So there does need to be a clearer and consistent policy. And what we'd really hope is that anyone on parental leave would be able to be excused without having to appeal, without having to go to social media and without having

to go through all of this. Well, an urgent review, that's what we've just heard is going to be looked at. How does that make you feel? You may have, you know, you feel it probably with your son only being a couple of months old that you can't really get your head around much at the moment. I remember that feeling myself, but you may have just prompted an urgent review. I hope so. Yeah. And I hope someone follows it up and ensures that they do put something in place. Because I think also when you've got anything like that and you're getting rejections and it seems completely reasonable what you're putting forward, I mean, it sort of brings to mind what we were talking about right at the beginning of the programme.

Shirley Williams really got very frustrated with the idea you've got to pretend you've not had a baby when you're working at the highest level of British politics and of politics around the world. And I suppose that's the idea that you're not trying to skive, are you? No, definitely not. As I said, it's a really important civic duty. And one day I do look forward to serving it. But I just think at the moment, I wouldn't be able to give a trial my full attention. And I don't think that would be fair, obviously, to anyone that's having their future decided on. With sleep deprived jurors looking at this and trying to think about it. Did you feel relief last night

definitely yeah well i am going to let you get back to it so stacy thank you for talking to us how is your little boy i should add and how are you he's good he's um he's very good through the night he likes to party so i'm still quite tired also remember that and i suppose are you are you up and back at them with a few more restrictions lifted I suppose it's been very hard for new mums over the last year and I just wonder if that's something that you're welcoming yeah I'm really looking forward to getting some baby groups seeing other mums just having a support network um my husband went out to football last night which was great for him and we're actually going out tonight for dinner for the first time so that'll be lovely we'll wrap up Make sure you're warm.

Zoe Stacey, good to talk to you. And that's what's happened there with the review of what's going to go on with those who are put in the same position as Zoe and asked to serve as jurors. Your messages are coming in about how you are or you aren't getting back to it. Yesterday, I saw the long anticipated reopening of swimming baths. I got my costume, checked that it still fit, got my swimming bag ready. But when it came to booking online, I couldn't go through. I backed out as just not comfortable sharing a pool with up to 15 strangers.

We'll wait until I've had my second jab, says Sandy. There you go. It should be a time to reassess our lives, not to be pushed back into the pre-COVID one. We must have learned something about ourselves and the natural world over this time. You only live once, and if you're lucky enough to still be around, nobody should be telling you how to live, says Yvette. Difficult to burst through that comfort bubble

when there are loads of people breaking the rules. In Henley yesterday, says Jane, a queue of about 40 people outside the pub, only three with masks, no distancing at all. Why would you risk going near a town centre with that going on? That's the other side of this. People still not feeling safe

and also looking at what other people are doing. Fiona says, Dear Emma, it's a real mixed bag for me. Good morning. I'm feeling like I'm running out of time to do all those things I still need to do from my lockdown list and also enjoy the clear diary feeling of bliss

and no need to always be on a deadline. On the other hand, nice dates are in the diary, seeing my mum and son going away, dinner with friends, meetings in London, that feeling, will that feeling of missing out, the FOMO, creep back in, mixed emotions, really. And others also to that effect. Yesterday, when social media was flooded with pictures of my friends triumphantly holding pints in beer gardens, I stayed home, made a vegan quiche and watched Spinal Tap. My partner has leukaemia.

I've still yet to be vaccinated as the guidance on vaccinating the household contacts of extremely clinically vulnerable people has only just changed. I don't feel I can go out into the world until doing so won't put him at risk. All the best to you, Sarah. Thank you for that message. While talking about going back into the world, being part of the world of work, how that fits with your life. This month marks 18 years since the legal right to request flexible working came into effect for parents of children aged under six or 18 if they have a disability as it was. Progress over the years meant that by 2014, the right to request was made available to everyone, regardless of whether they're a parent or a carer.

Just to be clear, especially as we're talking during a pandemic, we're not talking about the right to work from home. Flexible working is something very different to that, which we'll get into. But how much progress have we made with flexible working? Is there still a stigma attached to it? Sarah Jackson-Obee, who leads the charity Working Families and has done so for 24 years, she's now a workplace consultant and visiting professor at the Cranfield University School of Management with us. And Rhonda D'Ambrosio used her right to request in 2004 and her daughter is now 17. We'll hear from her in just a moment. But Sarah, to start with you, just to be clear, what is flexible working? Flexible working is simply simply not it's just not monday to friday nine to five on the premises so your flexibility could be in one or a combination

of where where you work when you work how long you work and it's been interesting seeing you know when in 2003 everybody thought that flexible working meant part-time and because of the pandemic now everybody thinks that flexible working means working-time. And because of the pandemic now, everybody thinks that flexible working means working from home. It doesn't. It's about common sense. What does the job need in terms of when, where, how long? And what do you need?

What does your family need? And how do the two match? Can it mean working fewer hours? It could mean working fewer hours. Definitely, that's part-time working or job sharing. So part-time working fits under this umbrella sometimes it absolutely can sometimes your your part-time job is not flexible so it's flexible at the point you're negotiating it if you're saying to your manager I don't want to

work full-time week anymore I need to work for my family every morning say a lot of women will work an inflexible part-time arrangement, for example, because women tend to be the primary carer and you need to know that you can pick up the child from the childminder. So your part-time hours may well be inflexible. So flexibility really means having some choice and control over when, where and how long you work and agreeing that with your manager. Take us back to 18 years ago. What was the landscape like then and how did this come about? Okay, so 18 years ago, obviously the right to request flexible working is just a right to ask. And so that was always there. You could always say to your boss, I'd like to work differently.

And in fact, some companies had already been like to work differently. And in fact, some companies had already been taking action on this. So in fact, the first one that really made change happen was the then Lloyds TSB Bank. Back in 1999, they introduced something called work options, which just said, anyone who works for us, talk to us about how you'd rather work. And that was irrelevant whether you had children or not. So there were trailblazing organisations and there were also trailblazing working women like Patricia Hewitt and Harriet Harman who made it happen. So they got into government in 97 and they said women need to be able to work flexibly, to be able to continue to work and to have children. So in 2003, this new legislation came in, very restricted.

You've got to have a child under the age of six or a disabled child under the age of 18, as you said. And then over the years, campaigners and women together got that extended until 2014 comes along. And everyone now, if you're an employee, has the right to work flexibly or the right to ask to work flexibly. Thank you for reminding us, taking us back there. But it was trailblazing to do, Rhonda, and you did do it. You did pluck up the courage, and I'm sure it took courage, to ask. What was

that like? Morning, Emma. Yes, going back 17 years, I remember I did feel quite confident because of the conversations that I had internally with my then manager and the person I was speaking to from human resources. And so I was quite confident about asking because the way in which the right to request was introduced to me. But of course, being a new mum, having my first child, you know, a baby daughter, it's still, you know, there was no absolute guarantee that I would get that request accepted. So of course, nerve wracking from that point of view.

And you were working in recruitment and you had also, tell us about a promotion you were expecting to have, because we should say it was granted. And tell us how it played out. Yes. So I joined this organisation specifically to work in what we call a managing consultant role. So a role where I would be leading people. But I'd initially joined because they were a new office in a new

region and the management role wasn't immediately available. So I'd gone in as a senior recruiter. And the understanding that was in play that I had in writing through my interview process was that once my manager moved on to her different role, that I would take that team. And throughout that process, I fell pregnant with Lucia and had a conversation with Human Resources when we were discussing, you know, my pregnancy and the options. And I was being informed what my rights were. And they asked me, well, what role, you know, do you think you would want to come back to? And I was quite

surprised I was quite shocked because you know for me I'd my career path was set out and it was no secret that I joined there to be a managing consultant and a number of individuals that had taken me through that interview process had subsequently left the business and it became a bit of a battle and again a, a difficult situation, because for me, this was a, this is what I joined the business for, this is the role that I'm doing, this is the, this is what I'm on track to achieve. And it wasn't, it wasn't easy. And, you know, we had some good conversations around objectives and things that needed to be achieved to make that promotion happen. And there was another individual in the business with me at the same time

who was going through a very, very similar thing. And she didn't have to go through the same kind of process that I did. And she didn't have to hit the same types of objectives that I did. And the only difference between us at that time was that I was pregnant. I suppose what you're saying there, and you do end up, you did end up leaving to set up your own business. So that's the ultimate flexibility, you could argue, although, you know, there's no flexibility, because it all falls on you. And but but in a way, it works. And then it didn't. Yeah, absolutely. I, I applied for flexible working. And I had a

very supportive manager, he was incredibly, you know, supportive when I remember I had blood pressure and I've been to the doctor near the end of my pregnancy, ankles were, you know, very chunky and he was very caring and sort of said, you must come in a bit later, leave a bit earlier. However, you know, the business and I think, you know, corporate workplace back then was somewhat different to the landscape that it is now. And my request for flexible working got declined. And that was that was very, very stressful for me. I was under the impression from the conversations that I'd had with him and other people in the business that my request to work three days a week would be supported. Once I'd made that request, I was quite confident. But when I sat down with the human resources director for my meeting and subsequently that got rejected, it was really challenging. It was a time in my life when I was very, very excited about being a parent and also excited about the fact

that my career wouldn't be compromised, it kind of came crashing down on me. And it was very difficult. I had a conversation with my manager whereby I think there was this assumption that I was going to leave the business because I couldn't get that flexibility. And that wasn't an option for me and my husband. And I mean, just to come back to Sarah here, has it changed? Has it got better? And I'm also very mindful that surely men

have got to ask for this as well. Yes, men definitely have to ask for it. And I think what we've seen over the last 18 years is a pattern where women use the right to request far more than men do because they tend to be the primary carer and need the certainty. Men, when they do ask, are more likely to be turned down.

So there's a real bias there in the system. And so the most important thing that needs to happen here, I think, is for employers to really actively start saying to their men, we know you want to be active fathers because there's a whole generation of young men who do want to be active fathers. Please use the right to request flexible working. Work flexibly if you can, because until men are enabled to be active fathers, we won't get equality at home and we certainly won't get equality in the workplace either. So it sounds like a lot more to do. Sarah Jackson, thank you for that. Rhonda D'Ambrosio, thank you to you for sharing your experience of all those years ago and how it sort of went right and then went wrong.

It sounds like there's a lot more to discuss. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. I really hope you enjoyed that podcast. I'm here just to tell you about a new one on BBC Sounds called Life Changing in which I get the chance to have some really, I hope

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