Woman's Hour - Shobna Gulati. British Touring Car driver Jade Edwards. Playground politics. Sarah Brown.

Episode Date: September 21, 2020

When actor Shobna Gulati’s mum was diagnosed with dementia in 2017, she was already spending the majority of her time caring for her. Their sometimes difficult relationship was tested to the limit, but ultimately she gained a lot from those years spent in her mum’s front room. When she passed away last year she decided to write a book about her family and her mum’s illness called Remember Me? Discovering my mother as she lost her memory.At the weekend Jade Edwards will become the first woman in 13 years to race in the British Touring Car Championship at Silverstone. So why's it taken so long to see another woman on the course? Jade joins us, along with Fiona Leggate, the last female driver who competed back in 2007. Have you been given the silent treatment by another parent at school, or felt excluded from a group of mums? Now the new school year is well underway, playground politics can sometimes extend to the other side of the school gate. Jane discusses coping strategies with counselling psychologist Dr Rachel Allan and Tanith Carey, author of The Friendship Maze and Taming the Tiger Parent. Because of the Covid 19 pandemic up to 10 million children around the world are likely to be permanently excluded from getting an education according to the UK charity Theirworld. It's run by Sarah Brown, wife of the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Ahead of a virtual session later today at the UN General Assembly Meeting she talks to Jane about how the charity advocates on global education issues at both a strategic and practical level .Presenter Jane Garvey. Producer Beverley PurcellPhoto Credit. The About Studio.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is Monday the 21st of September 2020 and here's the programme. Hello, very good morning to you. Today I'll be talking to the actor Shobhna Gulati. She'll talk about caring for her mum who had dementia and she's got some really good advice about that so it'll be interesting to hear from Shobhna Gulati. She'll talk about caring for her mum who had dementia and she's got some really good advice about that. So it'll be interesting to hear from Shobhna a little later. A playground

politics. The schools are open again, but do you find the playground a difficult place to be as a parent? Do you get the cold shoulder? Some interesting comments from you already. This is from our Instagram. It's such a relief, says this listener, when your youngest gets to secondary school and you don't have to pretend to like the PTA, everybody else, being perky at 8.30 in the morning, being a competitive mum, school playground power games and that Queen Bee. Is it really that bad in Britain's playgrounds? Let us know at BBC Women's Hour on social media

or you can email the programme via our website. Also today we'll talk to the first woman in over a decade to take part in the British Touring Car Championship. She is Jade Edwards. She'll compete at Silverstone this weekend. She's got a Vauxhall Astra with a sequential gearbox. There'll be more on that a little later in the programme today. Now, we know that the impact of COVID on education has been immense, even here in the UK. Now, the UK charity, Their World, is warning that millions of children all over the world are actually likely to be permanently excluded from education as a result of the coronavirus. They're also more likely to end up in a child marriage or

to be exploited through child labour. And of course, girls will be disproportionately affected. Sarah Brown, a wife of the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown, runs Their World and it is in charge of a session later on today at this year's UN General Assembly meeting. And it's virtual, of course, so there's a chance for you to join in and hear the debate. Sarah Brown, good morning to you. Morning, Jane. First of all, just take us through how this will work out today, the idea that someone can be at home and can be playing a part in the UN General Assembly.

Well, for all the disadvantages of COVID-19, I think the access we're getting to be able to join things digitally is maybe one of the pluses. Each year, this is the time that the United Nations General Assembly meets and all the leaders normally convene in New York to the UN headquarters. And that's not happening this year. the different events and side events taking place are moving online and our big event that their world organizes each year normally behind closed doors and you have to have a security pass to get in we've moved online and it means that anybody can register and it's a free event and you can hear what the united nations secretary general is going to say what the uk minister liz suck who's responsible in this area will say you'll hear what the UK Minister Liz Sugg, who's responsible in this area, will say. You'll hear what the European Commissioner, all the big players, the head of the big NGOs and some amazing youth activists, talking about how we unlock the big change we need to get global education moving and more children into school. And there's no cost to this. You can be at home. You just follow a link

and you're there. No, you just, the easiest way to get to it is via the Their World website, just theirworld.org and you press register now. Okay, and anyone can do it. What is the single biggest challenge? This is a huge area and we're not going to have enough time to fully investigate it in the time available this morning. What's the single biggest challenge? I think the greatest challenge is to know that even before COVID-19, there were nearly 260 million children out of school and millions more who weren't learning. And the danger of that is by the time we get to 2030, which is the goal that the United Nations has set for education for all children, we'll have half of all young people in the world not on track to have even the most basic skills for employment or to be able to contribute economically. And that's a danger for all of the world, not just that half. And right now with COVID, we're seeing millions who've fallen out of school.

And as you said, the dangers for them of child marriage, of, you know, being child, going into child labour is very high. And girls are really at the sharp end of this. So the question then is, what do you do? You need to really unlock something big and dramatic to change it. So we're very clear what we're calling for, which is an investment of the education budgets that exist into early years, which is absolutely critical for good learning, mobilising a new international finance facility and also contributing more of humanitarian aid into education in emergencies. And those things, you start to see the numbers changing.

But there's things that can be done at a grassroots level as well, where we see projects on the ground adapting to Covid, how children can learn. And that's equally important. Right. Give us a good news story from recent months. As their world point of view, which is we've seen our projects and those of other charities and NGOs working around the world adapt so that children who haven't been able to go to school. I mean, we have projects in East Africa where learning materials have been going to school for online lessons, using shortwave radio,

sending out summer activity packs, training teachers to be able to teach online. So more and more of that is moving. And for those children who are able to access online, and sometimes that's just through, you know, an app on a mobile phone, they're starting to be able to get classes in a way that they couldn't before because we're being quite innovative. We know that there's going to be an announcement, a press conference at 11 o'clock this morning. We know at the moment that schools in Britain are open. What would you say? I mean, your belief would be, I guess, that schools should stay open in this country at all costs and pubs and everything else can go to the, well, can certainly be shut, I was going to say go to the wall, but education should be the absolute key priority. It can't be at all costs. Of course, it can't be at all costs.

But I think what we're looking to do is keep schools opening, but also keep open our channels for learning. And we know how hard it's been for parents through that summer term to adapt to their kids being at home, they're trying to work. It just feels very difficult. And if our children aren't able to go to school, all the rest of us as parents are kind of caught up in that too. So it's not at all cost, but I think it is a really important priority. And do you, I mean, you don't sense that it's anything other than a priority for this government. But I imagine that you yourself, you've got teenage sons now. They have suffered to a degree like everybody else's children.

Yeah, they moved immediately to having to work from home and everyone's having to learn how to do that. It's not something children were used to doing. But human beings are extraordinarily adaptable. I mean, I think if you look around the world, people have been amazing at working out how to solve a problem that arrived with, you know, seemingly no notice into their lives. And we've all made huge accommodations to it. So I think we can use this time to say, let's look at the top level thing, how we can use our voice, get online and keep pushing for the change to fund things from the top and invest. But also looking at whether it's your children in your own household or a project you can help somewhere else on the

other side of the world, that children are getting the chance to learn and thrive. And if we don't have that, the consequences for all of us are so severe. You know, between climate their world is implicated in this, but there are many, many of us who would dearly love to, with good faith, give money to charities in international development. Can we be confident that by doing so, it will be well spent by decent people? For the vast majority, vast, vast majority, projects are well safeguarded. There's a huge amount of checks and balances in the system.

I mean, at Their World, we put criminal record checks on absolutely everybody that works with us or represents us. We've got huge amounts of vigilance. I think lots of people learned a lesson having seen a couple of NGOs encounter difficulties a couple of years ago. So lots of those things have changed. But the select committee always should be looking at this and monitoring it and where there are problems, you root it out. But I think if you're an individual deciding to give money to a well-known, established charity, you can be very confident that that money is going to do what the charity says it's going to do, which is to help and support children to have a better future.

I don't know if you've been following the Sasha Swire diaries. This is the wife of the former Conservative MP Hugo Swire, who's written in some great gossipy detail about the events of the Cameron years. Does it strike you as being an abuse of trust, that kind of behaviour? Well, I wrote a book after I left Downing Street because I wanted to tell the story of those particular years. I didn't think anyone would necessarily be interested in my whole life and where I went to primary school, but I did write about the three and a half years at number 10

and the 10 years leading years at number 10 and the 10 years leading up at number 11 a little bit, because I wanted to, I feel like you're leading a public life in a very publicly owned place down the street that has no public access. Yes, but that was you telling your story. Yeah, I was going to say, but what I did do is make sure I chose what to say and what not to say. And where, you know, a conversation's been private, I'm not sure I would necessarily express that. Not to not tell tales out of turn, but it just, yeah, it's trying to get that balance right of what you share and put in the public domain. And some of it can be quite fun and quite cheeky. Why not?

But it's, yeah, you've got to consider people's feelings and what feels appropriate. So do you feel sorry for the Camerons, for example? Any political people, I think, first of all, I feel sorry for no politicians, really. But I always feel sympathy for, you know, how they can construct and lead a normal family life. It's very difficult to always be out there and on show and everything you do is under scrutiny. And you do know every time you kind of cross the threshold into the public domain that anyone can be sharing what they see or observe or what their thoughts are.

And certainly I think from Gordon and my point of view, people were able to comment on us positively, negatively, however they chose to. But it's tricky when it's things that have happened that you thought were private. Yeah. OK. Is there any part of your old life you miss, Sarah? I miss some of the people that we're with day to day because it was 13 and a half years of our life. But the rest of it, I feel we've both been able to go on and do good and interesting things and, you know, lead our life with our boys and family and friends.

So everyone's lives move and change, you know. Thank you very much for talking to us. That's Sarah Brown. Thank you. Take care of yourself. Sarah runs the charity Their World, and you can go to that charity's website, Their World, and register for that session we discussed at the beginning there at the UN General Assembly.

It starts at three o'clock today. There is no cost to you. You can be a part of that, which is actually, as Sarah was discussed at the beginning there at the UN General Assembly. It starts at three o'clock today. There is no cost to you. You can be a part of that, which is actually, as Sarah was saying at the beginning, quite a thing and something that probably we wouldn't have been able to do pre-COVID. So we've got to take the small wins, haven't we? Well, perhaps not so small.

Let's talk now to Shobhna Gulati, an actor best known for roles in Coronation Street and in Dinner Ladies, of course. She's written a memoir called Remember Me, Discovering My Mother As She Lost Her Memory. And Shobhna joins us from home. Good morning to you, Shobhna. Good morning. And I think it's worth saying, actually, that, of course, the events of the last few months have affected everybody. And you basically lost your job in mid-March.

Yeah, I lost my job in mid-March and also contracted COVID-19 and found myself terribly isolated. And in that place of isolation and utter despair, I thought about the loss of my mother. I lost my mother in November of last year, and I thought to myself, gosh, I felt really connected to her so I began the journey of writing the book. I'd already started writing some elements of it because while I was looking after her one of the things I did as a carer was sort of try and ignite her imagination and she would recollect stories from her past and I would note them down. And what fascinated me about that time was the memories that she curated.

I mean, it was almost as if she picked them and told me about them. Well, she had led a most extraordinary life. I mean, oddly enough, the thing that surprised me most, and I suppose this illustrates my ignorance, she was born in Southport. Yeah, she was born in Southport during the war. My grandparents had come over. My grandfather was one of the first officers after the British left. In the railways, he was an electrical engineer. So he was based up near Crewe, where the big exchange is.

And, yeah, mum was born in Southport. I't know why poor old Southport it's not it's not funny um I've spent many a happy day there her ashes are also scattered in Southport off the end of the pier she wanted that specifically I mean it's interesting the book really charts my mum's sense of memory and identity. And, you know, she she was British. And that's where she where she started and where she wanted to have her final journey. Yeah. She was also a big, big fan of the soaps. I mean, she devoured them all, didn't she? Yes, she did. My father, when they arrived at Coronation Street street had just started so that was what 60 odd years ago and uh even though you know obviously they spoke english

absolutely did speak english and they uh my dad said to her you know it they have a funny way up north you know watch this program it's really. You'll get to know, you know, your neighbours. And yeah, she was hooked from day one. She really loved, you know, that sort of there's a there's a bathos and pathos in Coronet Street. So she really loved that. Yeah. Well, of course, she must have been beside herself when you got a part in the soap. Yes. Yes, she was. I mean, you know, alongside all her favourite characters, she couldn't quite get over it. And she'd never sort of say, I love your character. She'd always say that she loved a particular person.

The thing is, is that what was really lovely about being on Coronation Street, when I had the children on the soap opera, named one of them after my mum. lovely about being on Coronation Street when I had the children on on the soap opera yeah named one of them after my mum right and you know all those years later I'd find myself sitting watching Coronation Street with one when with her dementia and Asha my uh screen daughter would pop up on screen and she would be reminded of herself I know know that sounds really strange, but you know, when you are caring for somebody who has dementia, you have to find sort of very creative ways of dealing with yourself in that situation and dealing with those people who are really close to you.

Well, that's what I wanted to ask you, if you don't mind, just simply advice from you about being with somebody with dementia because there'll be lots of our listeners who are doing exactly that right now how do you talk to them how do you make the most of their memories well first of all you have to accept the kind of carer you are and and that's that's the first thing really you know we can't be everything to everybody so there's an acceptance that has to take place within yourself because it's really really really complicated um complicated thing um for me as an actor I started using my imagination and I love to cook so I filled the house with delicious

smells you know in a bid to encourage her to eat and to you you know, to sort of get her memory back to those smells that she really, you know, once used to love. I'd ad lib, you know, I'd try and, you know, when she'd forgotten something, I'd try and say, you know, I didn't want to say, but I already told you, because, you know, care, you've got to care for that loved one and still retain their dignity. So I didn't, you know, if somebody kept telling me, oh, I've already told you, I thought to myself, well, that would be really, really wary. So I'd, you know, come up with some madcap story.

I mean, it was really thinking on your feet like improv you know as an actor and you know I made jokes I tried to stimulate her her love her portal to life was the television so you know the television from adverts through to you know watching the same program over and over again we'd find something within the program and you know she'd recall from there and you'd go on that journey with her I mean and and you know that's why I wanted to share that with you you know there's a lot of there's a lot of sadness in this as you watch your loved one you know incrementally lose their memory and their sense of themselves but at the same time you know you can go with them on that journey.

Well, you can, Shobhna, if you're able. But did you ever feel that you, frankly, were losing yourself in all this? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, this is my firsthand experience of looking after her and the impact that had on my work, on my relationships, on our family, you know, and how, you know, so destructive it was. But at the same time, you know, now I suppose I've worked through a lot of that and I tried to work through that whilst I was with my mum because obviously it kept cropping up

and you have to find a way of you know caring for yourself because if you don't care for yourself you're you're going to be in you are going to be in trouble so I would take time to you know reach out for support and and talk to your friends I mean you need it because you can feel almost almost trapped in it too um it's a really hard decision to make to care for somebody who has who has this illness and it's not to be taken lightly but you need you need the support and i would you know i'd reach out there is support available and there and and try and find some time my sister uh used to used to make sure she went for a walk, for example. I mean, and it's really hard to sort of make those choices

because you think you're going to miss something or you think you're going to, you know, something will happen. But, you know, the truth of the matter is that you have to. You just have to. Otherwise, you'll no use to anybody. Can I, you say, the truth of the matter is that you have to. You just have to. Otherwise, you're no use to anybody. Can I say you had COVID. How are you now? I'm not sure, really.

Sometimes I feel sick and exhausted. And I don't know where that comes from. Well, it's obviously something to do with the remnants of it. It was a really, really difficult disease to have. I lost my sense of smell and taste. And that reminded me of the times when I was with my mum when, you know, she'd have a respiratory infection and she couldn't actually quite tell us that, you know, she wasn't interested in the food that you'd cooked, you know, and she couldn't find comfort in that. And, and I kind of now realise what she might have been going through, you know, her sense of taste or smell might have been affected. And of course, there's no communicating that because, you know, essentially, she'll be in a different place to you.

You know, it was really, really interesting. And that's why I wrote the book. It was what memory returned to her when she wasn't concentrating on the day-to-day presence. Well, what really comes through the piece is, well, the intricacies of family life, to put it mildly, and the fact that your mum, well, you were a third child and you were a girl.

Yeah. And your mum had also had a tough time as a young girl too. Yes, I think, you know, we all live with the patriarchy, don't we? Don't start me, Shobhna. And I think that, you know, from giving her cultural background, you know, the onus was on her to produce a film. And, you know, when I arrived, I was the third girl. You know, not that she, you know, obviously she did love me,

but we never kind of said that to each other. And I think it's a generational thing as well. I, yeah, the third girl. You know, there's a word in Hindi for daughter, which is beti, and there's a word for son, which is beta. And now they've kind of become combined, you know, grammatically. It doesn't really matter whether you're a beti or a beta. But for mum, you know, when she called me beta towards the end,

I just thought, well, that's lovely. You know, finally I have, you know, no gender and I'm there for her and she realises that. I thought the book was lovely, actually. And I hope you're proud of what you did for your mum. I'm sure you are. But I also, I hear it in your voice, you've had a really tough time, haven't you?

Yeah, it has been extremely difficult. I think isolation for all of us is difficult. Isolation when you're caring for somebody in these times of coronavirus, it must be extremely difficult. And I, you know, my've got to keep a hold of yourself and find those, you know, those happy moments in the sad because there are. Yeah. And bring you that will bring you a great deal of comfort. And also, please, please rely on your friends. I mean, you know, please do. Yeah. Well, ask as well. That's the other thing. But you should ask because they are there. Yes. Yeah. But sometimes they they need, yeah. But sometimes they need to be, well, they need to know that you need them. It's as simple as that.

Yes, they definitely need to know that you need them. Shobhna, thank you so much for being on and take care of yourself. Shobhna Gulati, Remember Me, Discovering My Mother As She Lost Her Memory is the title of Shobhna's book. Now, tomorrow on the programme, we're launching, I'm delighted to say,

the Power List for 2020. I'm going to be revealing the theme of the list and introducing two of our judges, as well as asking for your ideas of women you think should be considered. Now, you might well be new to the programme. I should say the first Power List was back in 2013. Since then, we've celebrated inspiring women who've really made a difference to the way we live our lives. So you can look back to see who made it onto previous power lists by going to the ever-present and incredibly useful Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour.

That's where you'll find all that. Schools are back, and I'm just wondering how it's been for you in the playground. Have you ever felt the cold shoulder at the school gate? Tanith Carey is a journalist and a parenting author, and Dr Rachel Allen is a chartered counselling psychologist. And I said at the beginning of the programme, we've had some interesting comments from listeners. Tanith, we may like to pretend this stuff doesn't go on,

but actually, judging by the reaction from our audience, it still is very much a part of some people's lives. Absolutely. I mean when we step into that school playground with our child we feel it's not only our child going back to school it's also us. And it is a very tense situation. I think it is worthwhile recognising how challenging it could be.

I mean I think because there's a lot of insecurity a lot of judgmentalism around parenting we want to know that we're doing it right. So I think even when we step into the playground, we can often feel, bring baggage from our own childhood and also feel quite a lot of paranoia about what other people think about our parenting styles. Right, OK. Well, Dr Rachel Allen, is it because we're carrying our own childhood baggage that this sort of thing can be so hard to navigate? Morning, Jane.

Well, the school gate is significant for exactly that reason. You know, when we take our child to school and when we visit that school gate, as if that's not difficult enough a thing to do in its own right, we bring with us our own memories from having been at school. So any time that we may have felt excluded during our school years, any time that we may have felt a sense of injustice or perhaps even being bullied, that comes with us. So a situation, a social situation that's already complex and already difficult. Exactly as Tanith is saying there, we bring our own past with us and makes it even more challenging to navigate.

OK, can I just bring in the listeners here? This is an anonymous email from a parent who says, my child has special needs, autism, and I feel I'm a permanent outcast in the playground. I've come to terms with it over the years. My child is now in the last year of primary school. But it does sometimes make me sad. For example, recently, when the Black Lives Matter movement, which I fully support, hit the press, parents on the class WhatsApp group would

crow about how inclusive we are. Unfortunately, not if your child has autism. Tanith, that strikes me as being very depressing. Yeah, I can completely understand where that mother is coming from. I mean, the fact is that many children on the spectrum also have problems with social skills. And as a mother of a child on the spectrum, you can also feel very judged and disapproved of by parents. I think what's best is, I mean, it's very human nature to withdraw when you and your child feel rejected. But I think it's really important to remember that social skills can

be taught and that there are all sorts of different ways that you can help your child address this and also sort of link up with other mothers who also have a similar challenge. You know, you're not alone. I mean, there will be many other children i think 15 of children in every class will have some kind of um social consistent social um challenges so i mean i think that as a society we need to remember that this is there's a growth mindset and that children really can be taught the skills to fit in better make eye contact say the right thing in the right circumstances and and not just sort of just give up the ghost, if you see what I mean. No, not easy, though. Another anonymous email.

When I moved from town to country, nothing prepared me for the oddness of school gate politics, the outward hostility, cold shouldering, curiosity and mistrust. Towards me, a newbie has been ill-concealed and I'm not alone. I have also met some great individuals amongst these women, but I've never found my gang. I gave up trying a long time ago. I now call myself the ninja mum.

I'm in cahoots with the lollipop lady. She tips me off when my kids appear. I dash in, grab them and go, so I don't have to stand there like billy no mates Rachel this is having a pretty dreadful effect on this parent but it doesn't have to be that way does it well I think perhaps even before we we get to the the school gate it's important to think a little bit groups and how groups work because we we draw so much of our identity and our sense of self and even our self-esteem you know from groups and part of that is that we gravitate towards people who reaffirm

our view of ourselves so if we feel we have something in common or we feel that they reflect something that we want to reaffirm back to us, then we'll go towards those people. But part of how groups work, unfortunately, is that for a group to have an identity, it relies on having an out group. So for us to be us, there needs to be a them. And unfortunately, if you then in this in this kind of scenario, find yourself on the outside, that's a really isolating and difficult place to be. And as this listener, you know, was describing, you feel you feel completely on the outside. But I was I was glad to hear your listener kind of mentioned that she'd found a couple of allies because that counts for everything in that scenario. But it's a really difficult position. Yeah. We also had another email,

which actually I personally find too sad to read out, really, from a lady whose child had been diagnosed with, she says, an incurable genetic condition. And she says that her child was only eight and that parents were walking away from her and her family in the playground. Tanith, surely people are simply better than that. I think that's really, really upsetting for a parent. I do think also that I think we have to keep our paranoia in check.

I mean, I think when we walk into a playground, we assume that because people are chatting and they're not chatting to us, they don't want to talk to us. It may be that they know people better. It might mean that we don't know them yet. I mean, I think that obviously if we get off to a bad start at the beginning of a school year or school term, we can get very invested in this idea that, you know, we're in the out group. Well, there will always be sympathetic, empathetic people. I mean, like any playground is a cast of characters. While there may be people who don't want to associate, they will be kind, empathetic people.

So I think if we stay open to social contact, we smile and we keep going. And then we've also got to remember that, you know, continuing to try for the sake of our child is also good for the class as a whole. It's good for our child. It's good for the atmosphere of the class. It makes everyone more happy and relaxed. So I that you know we really do there will be someone in that class who is kind and thoughtful and i think if we tie everyone

with one brush because we've had a couple of really bad experiences it doesn't serve us or our child no but of course if you've been made to feel unwelcome it's very hard um to then dash into the playground or stride into it the next morning with a song in your heart and a smile slapped across your chops, Rachel. It's not that easy to do, is it? No, it's certainly not easy. But as Tanith says, I think that's an important point, that we do remind ourselves that one bad experience

doesn't necessarily need to sort of rule out future experiences that might be a bit better so that it's you know if you are able to reflect on how am I perceiving um the situation and how am I perceiving the other parents and is there is there something that I want to change and then thinking about how you might actually be able to do that could be a useful way to to sort of challenge that sense of feeling that we're on the outside. But I think that's a really difficult thing to do. Thank you very much, Dr. Rachel Allen and Tanith Carey. And your thoughts on that, welcome.

We'll read out more emails in the Woman's Hour podcast, which will head your way a little later today. Now, something positive this weekend. Jade Edwards will become the first woman in 13 years to race in the British Touring Car Championships at Silverstone. The last woman to do it was Fiona Leggett in 2007. I've talked to them both starting with Jade who told me this sport was very much in her blood. It's a dream come true for me as you can imagine I'm actually third generation so my grandfather raced as well as my father so for me to be racing in the British touring car, it's something that we've worked hard towards as a whole family. So it's going to be a weekend that's personally brilliant,

but as a family, it's going to be an unbelievable achievement. Is that a pressure, a responsibility? What is all that like? In some ways, you know, my dad was very successful in the same racing paddock. So it's always nice to try and achieve as much as you can. However, you know, I've kind of paved my own way and I'm a character in my own right. So, yeah, it's a pressure in certain areas, but not one I'll dwell on too much. Now, you're driving a Vauxhall Astra, aren't you? For the car people out there, and there will be many, how does that

Vauxhall Astra you'll be racing differ from one that will be pootling down the M40 later on today? So essentially, the general look of the car isn't too dissimilar. It's got a rear spoiler on it, some bigger wheel arches. So it just looks like an Astra on steroids. But inside the car, it's very different. It's a lot quicker. It's got what we call a sequential gearbox. So it just looks like a, you know, an Astra on steroids. But inside the car, it's very different. It's a lot quicker. It's got what we call a sequential gearbox. So it's not your normal H pattern gearbox and it's completely stripped out inside. So there's only one seat for me and everything else is completely bare.

So the looks of the car, it still very much looks like an Astra. You'd recognise it, but it's very different to what you see on the road. OK. Woman's Lounge discussed all kinds of things over the years sequential gearbox that might be a first what does that look like so essentially in your normal road car you've got a h pattern here so you move the gear stick over to the side and stuff like that sequential is basically you pull it towards you to go gear up you push it away from you to go gear down and And that is as simple as it is. But it creates a much faster gear change. So it's obviously optimal for a lap time over a race distance.

And when you're going around the course at Silverstone, your maximum speed in your souped-up Vauxhall Astra will be? So it's well over 100 miles an hour, as you can imagine. But I think what you'd find if you were to sit in the passenger seat, if we put one in for you, the shocking factor of a racing car is the speed around the corners. So, for example, turn one

is a very short dab on the brakes and back on the power. And it's the grip through the corners. You will be travelling at over 100 through some of these corners, which is quite impressive. Now, listening to all this is Fiona and we'll talk to her in a second.

But why has it taken so long for another woman to compete in this championship? I think hugely there's obviously less numbers of women competing. I was actually still in the paddock as a child when Fiona was racing. So I actually watched her career and it's nice that I'll then carry that on a few years later. But there's less of us to start with. But also motorsport, unfortunately, is a financial industry. So unless you have the sponsorship and the money to go racing, it's very difficult to compete at that level. So obviously, if there's less of us and it's difficult financially, it's going to eliminate any options until obviously 13 years later.

And I'm stepping up for one weekend. Yeah. Fiona, you wouldn't have expected it to be 13 years would you? No to be honest it doesn't feel that long ago but you know but yeah I mean I think I agree with Jade with what she's saying I think probably the main reason why probably there's not more women is financial is a massive thing because I know that we really struggled to try and get sponsorship back then. So then that hinders a lot of people from having the opportunity to be able to do it. How much money do you need, Fiona? Well, I don't know how much it is now, but I mean, when I was doing it all those years ago, it's kind of like a minimum of two hundred and fifty thousand.

Right. So it's a lot of money and 250 000 gets you what uh basically your car your team to run you your tires you fuel everything like that however if you have any crashes or anything that's on top which i had quite a few of those um um so you know like if you damage any of your tyres or, you know, anything like anything goes wrong with the gearbox, the engine, whatever, that's all an additional. That was for me all an additional cost on top of that, that initial sum. OK, it is still a mystery, though, as to why women don't seem to succeed at motorsport. I know lack of opportunity might be one factor, but most women drive. There's never any question about that.

What is the difference between driving a car and this kind of competitive motorsport? Because physical strength or lack of it cannot be a factor, Fiona. No, no, I don't. I think you're right. I mean, for me personally, I mean, I didn't even get into a car or a go-kart or anything until I was 23. So I hadn't had that karting background, you know, where quite a lot of the men, they'll start like quite young in karting and move their way on up through the ranks. I didn't do that. So I think for me personally, probably the reason why I wasn't probably higher up the field was just lack of experience really but hang on I'm a bit baffled you didn't get into a car of any kind till you're 23 and in a matter of a couple of years you're competing in the British Touring Car Championship

yeah it was uh tough well it was a slightly wild ride you went on there in a relatively short time. What happened to you? Well, it just came about basically. My dad also used to race in the equivalent of British touring cars before I was born. And so he's always had a huge interest in it. And there was just this competition in the motorsport to win a drive with Gwynne Duff Evans. Do I have him just take me out? So that's kind of how it all started. And then dad said to me, you know, do you want to have a go at it? So I was like, well, why not? So I literally took my odds test and got into a car, basically

having never set foot on a track before. So it was a huge learning curve for me. Right. And how did it end for you, Fiona? Why did you stop? Because I fell pregnant with my son. Unfortunately, my dad was devastated. In fact, your son's into, isn't he into motorsport now already? Well, yeah, his dad was quite a successful, well, was a successful racing driver, Danny Watts. So he's kind of had it in his blood, really. He's not done anything competitive within karting, but he's been karting a few times and he's actually pretty quick.

So I think now my dad will probably live his dream through him and not me. Right. There's a very strong genetic link here, isn't there, to ability and interest in motorsport. Jade, what is it like when you're competing? Well, you tell me, are you eyeballing the other drivers? And I guess, of course, there's nothing a male driver might like more than overtaking you. Yeah, I mean, you know, you said just recently that, you know, women aren't successful in motorsport, but that's, you know, that's kind of how the media portrays it because

there's not one in F1. But if you actually look through the other categories women are competing at a high level and they're and they're winning unfortunately British touring cars obviously had a little bit of a gap but you know racing on these weekends you get huge respect from from the men as long as you do a good job and you know off track it's a really good good atmosphere and and you know if you do a good job on circuit and you're a good character off circuit, then you gain your respect throughout the season. But can you just take me into that Vauxhall Astra? No other, there's only one seat.

You've got your sequential gearbox and you've got all your protective gear on and you're in the thick of it. What is it like? It's a mixture of, it's an adrenaline rush that you'll never experience anywhere else. I'm still yet to find it other than on a racetrack. But it's also a huge mixture of nerves as well, because the anticipation is so different.

Each race, something new could happen. So the anticipation is a high level. And you sometimes you wonder, you know, you sit there on the green flag lap, you're strapped in your car, you're a bag of nerves. You're excited as well. And you sit and and you think why do I put myself through this you know but as soon as the lights go out and that adrenaline kicks in and you forget about all the nerves and just and enjoy it it's it's the biggest rush you'll you'll ever feel when you hear that Fiona what does that make you think I just remember that feeling very clearly exact is exactly the same as what Jade said getting all ready to get in the car,

then getting strapped in, sitting there and waiting. I was just a bag of nerves. But like Jade said, once the lights go green, all of that goes and you just do what you have to do. And Jade, very briefly, sponsorship, you have got it. Was it difficult to get it? Sponsorship is always, always difficult to get. Motorsport is a very niche industry. But yes, I've been very lucky. I get most of mine through a social media campaign and I work very hard on that. So, yeah, managed to get some sponsorship for this weekend and I couldn't be happier. And you can see Jade doing her stuff in the British Touring Car Championships this coming weekend at Silverstone.

Not, of course, in real life, because that kind of thing seems like something from a whole other world, doesn't it? Going along to something like that and thrilling to it all. But you can see it on ITV2. And best of luck to Jade. She sounds so enthusiastic about it, doesn't she? So I really hope things go OK for her next weekend. Now, a whole load of emails from you today. Thank you.

Thank you very much for being willing to be part of it. Just want to say lots of you just felt that Shobhna Gulati had some really good advice about caring for somebody with dementia. And you just enjoyed hearing from her. And I think you, like me, picked up on the fact that Shobhna had really come through a pretty tough time in her personal life. You could just sense it, couldn't you, that she'd been ill herself, that she'd cared for her mum. Hopefully, things are looking a little better for her. And she's a brilliant writer. So the book is called Remember Me. Shobhna Gulati is her name. Now on to your views on playgrounds and the playground politics. I think this is an important email. This listener says, I've just listened to

the comments you shared on the programme by a parent about how she and her child are excluded by neurotypical families at school. I was surprised and a bit disappointed to hear the guest then discuss the social skills of the autistic child as the cause of the problem, or rather where the changes could be made. Surely the lack of social skills sits with the grown-ups who are excluding, probably unwittingly, an autistic member of their class. Are we expecting a child who is possibly unwittingly a little different in some ways from neurotypical children to do all the hard work when the adults can't figure it out? This is clearly all wrong, says that contributor who says they are very disappointed. And another

listener along the same lines. Children on the spectrum can be taught to communicate better. Yes, they can, but it takes time and every rejection hurts. It is important to keep control of your paranoia. If you're the parent of a child who's different and that difference makes other children and parents avoid you, that's not paranoia, that's real. My former husband and I have brought up a wonderful but obviously very different daughter. She really suffered at school and often her husband and I have brought up a wonderful but obviously very different daughter. She really suffered at school and often her father and I spoke to the school and to other parents. We were strong people and had a strong partnership and the school was magnificent. Not everybody can overcome that playground dynamic.

Our daughter is now 31, but she's not untouched by her playground rejection. No, and that's very sad. It really is. From another listener, I feel that your emailer was dismissed for paranoia when I've had the same experience with my child with special needs and some parents not wanting to be associated with us. Yes, a few parents swam against the tide and did reach out a hand of kindness

but we were basically excluded, especially from after-school meet-ups in public places like the park. There are dominant parents in the social hierarchy, and I'm afraid that often other parents just follow their lead. We're often not better than this. Mothers, I'm afraid, can be totally devoid of empathy for other mothers and children. We ended up moving schools and had a better experience. Well, I'm sorry to hear that you went through such a hard time and I'm glad things got better. There have been so many interesting emails just about what it's like to be in the playground. It is extraordinary how much of an impact this has on people.

I've always worked, says this listener, so I wasn't always in the playground and that made it harder for me to meet other parents. I did make some friends, but I was excluded from the yummy mummy gang. This was fine, but they had more access to teachers and my daughters and her friends were punished because one of these mums reported them for spitting. What she omitted from the story

was that her son and his friends were giving the girls Chinese burns and the girls retaliated by blowing raspberries. The boys were not punished until I went into school and challenged the teacher who was mortified. These posh mums were always in school when I was at work so I felt their children got preferential treatment from teachers. There we go. Another anonymous email. My experience is that as a single working parent, I was excluded because I couldn't join in with during the day socialising. That also meant fewer play dates because I couldn't reciprocate. Evenings for non-working mothers were strictly reserved for time with husbands. Main social activity was complaining about husbands and how hard their lives were at

home in a very affluent area. I wasn't included because my day-to-day was much more challenging than theirs, holding down a serious job and bringing up my children alone and they didn't want to hear my experience because it made their complaints seem trivial in comparison. The only women who I felt understood me or who were friends were those who'd had careers. I was sometimes treated like a failure and judged for not staying in my relationship. It felt like going back to the 50s with women valued for homemaking and living vicariously through your husband's material success. The sisterhood didn't exist in my experience, says that listener. Well, it is your experience and you own it and you're absolutely free to tell us about it. I wanted

to read this from a listener who says, I'm Polish-British and I've really been through this. My advice is you go into that playground with your head up and a big smile. You are going there for your children and not to entertain other parents. When you're happy in yourself, your children will feel more confident and happy and that is more important. There will always be circles of self-adoration in any social situation. Feeling visibly relaxed in the playground will make you seem more accessible

for other people to approach you. Just try to ignore all the negativity, says that listener. Look, I absolutely take it that you yourself have been through it. I suppose what I meant was that it's just difficult sometimes if you do feel that people don't like you

or won't like you or have already illustrated that they don't like you. It can be very or have already illustrated that they don't like you, it can be very difficult to re-enter that same space and look really positive and welcoming because you don't feel that way, do you? Let's just do one more on this. A couple more, actually, because they're all good.

I child-minded a friend's little boy many years ago and found that the mothers at playgroup wouldn't mix with me because I wasn't a mother. Fortunately, the playgroup leaders remembered me from when my own sons had been to the playgroup. My mother was childminding my brother's children around the same time and she found the same thing. The only person who talked with her at the playgroup was another so-called non-mother, in this case a nanny. They became really good friends. I'd like to think it could be that we were considered professionals somehow, and they were perhaps nervous of us judging them. Totally not true, but it just felt like we were outcasts. Right, I mean, what this has revealed is that there are

real layers here, aren't there? And judgment comes from seemingly every single direction. This is, I think, the final one. I'm a 45-year-old mum of three. My youngest is still at primary school and I find the playground both harder and easier than with my first two. I'm no longer eager to make friends, so I do feel liberated to stand alone. But at the same time, I find the anxiety rises

when I hear the first-time mums talk about just how much they've been doing with their little ones at home. Somehow I tell myself I'm superior because I'm above all that. But I still go away feeling I need to do more. I just can't win. Yeah, I do. I do totally. I totally understand. And one more you can't be friends with everybody says this philosophical listener uh and she has a tale to illustrate this i sat down next to a woman

at a wi meeting oh she said you're not thinking of joining are you we've got enough members and we don't need any more well it made me mad me mad. So I joined and got my revenge. I have now been president for five years, says this proud emailer. Go, girl. That is how you get your revenge on the mean girl, isn't it? By entering the group and becoming the queen of the lot.

Actually, that's sounding like I'm judging. And I don't want to judge. I'm only here until Christmas. I don't want to judge anyone. Thanks to everybody who took part today. Interesting programme. Really looking forward to tomorrow when we launch the Women's Hour 2020 Power List. Join us then. Have you ever wondered what teachers talk about when no one else is listening? Well, you're about to find out. I'm Maureen Bake and my brand new podcast,

The Secret Life of Teachers, goes behind the headlines to see what's really going on as teachers go back to school after the lockdown. I was a teacher for almost a decade, but I never witnessed a time like this. So I've created my own virtual secret staff room where each week, some teacher friends and I will discuss everything from remote learning and mental health to offset inspections and teachers behaving badly. If you'd also like to overhear their uncensored staffroom confessions, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.