Woman's Hour - Should convictions for trafficking victims be overturned?, Author Gabrielle Zevin, and Nan's on Tik Tok

Episode Date: July 7, 2023

A woman from Manchester is battling to have a criminal conviction overturned because she was a victim of modern slavery at the time. Tina - that's not her real name - was beaten and forced into prostitution by her ex-husband. He controlled her life - and it was during that time that she was convicted of theft. We hear from BBC Radio Manchester's Richard Stead to find out more about the case. Professor Dame Sara Thornton, Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner until April 2022, joins Anita alongside Helen Pitcher, Chair of the Criminal Cases Review Commission.The writer Gabrielle Zevin was an only child who played pre-loaded video games on her dad’s work computer while she waited for him. In her best-selling novel ‘Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow’ she explores the world of games and creativity through Sadie and Sam who meet as kids and bond over their love of video games. She joins Anita to explain why she’s so fascinated by the power of play. What’s it like to go viral on TikTok in your late 80s? 27-year-old Jess and her 89-year-old grandmother, Norma, have gone viral on TikTok posting videos showing their close connection and the fun they have together. They join Anita to discuss their relationship and new found fame.A new documentary series has been released which looks at the career of Elvis Presley through the eyes of the women in his life. Barbara Shearer is the director of the three-part series Elvis' Women, which has secured interviews with many of his ex-girlfriends. Some of the women say that their relationship with Elvis began when they were teenagers, prompting many reviews to dub this a potential #MeToo moment for the rock and roll singer. Anita speaks to its director Barbara Shearer.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. This morning, I want to hear about your nan or your gran. And that's because I'm going to be talking to TikTok sensations Jess and her nan Norma, who have gone viral because of their very funny and endearing relationship. You'll hear for them shortly. But what about your own nan? How would she have gone viral? Or how would she go viral? Tell me about her quirks. When you think about her, in fact, let's all do it. Let's have

a moment thinking about our grandmothers. What comes to mind? Did she always have Murray mints in the bottom of her handbag? Did she never leave home without her lippy? Did she make the best Yorkshire puddings, jerk chicken, kidney bean curry? Did she always try and slip you a fiver for sweets? Did she give you lots of wisdom? Was she hilarious? Did she always have a new boyfriend every other weekend? Whatever. My gran had a very dry and very cutting sense of humour.

Would have been great to have a relationship with her now. But sadly, neither of my grandmothers are with me. But we are celebrating those amazing women today, the ones who paved the way. So tell me the funny, charming, silly, annoying stories about your grands. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

You can email me through our website or you can WhatsApp me. It's 03700 100 444. And of course, check the terms and conditions on our website. Also on the programme, Gabrielle Zevin, author of bestselling novel Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow will be in the studio. And I'll be speaking to Barbara Shearer. She's the director of a new documentary series all about Elvis. But this time they are discovering the singer through the eyes of his ex-girlfriends with insights which might surprise you. So get in touch with me about anything you hear on the programme.

We would love to hear from you. The text number, once again, 84844. But first, a woman is battling to have a criminal conviction overturned because she was a victim of modern slavery at the time. Tina, that's not her real name, was beaten and forced into prostitution by her ex-husband. He controlled her life and it was during that time that she was convicted of theft. It's thought if she's successful, it could lead to many more of these types of convictions being overturned. Well, Tina told her story exclusively to BBC Radio Manchester's Richard Stead, who joins me now. Morning, Richard. This is an appalling story.

You spoke to Tina. What can you tell us about what happened to her? Yes, as you say, this is a deeply upsetting story. We're calling the victim Tina, but as you said, that's not her real name. Tina is a victim of sex trafficking at the hands of her ex-husband. He used to beat her up, lock her in rooms and force her into having sex with hundreds of men for money. Now, her ex-husband is from Albania. He is known to have gone back there. But as things stand, Tina doesn't know where he is.

And Tina told me the abuse was horrific, and it still haunts her all these years later. He moved me all around the UK, around Manchester, all around the UK, and sold me for sex, and locked me in rooms, destroyed my life.

And there was the physical abuse as well yeah knife wounds cigarette burns baby that he beat out of me just three or four months pregnant and then every day i'm looking over my shoulder tell us what mentally how you dealt with it at the time shut down just absolutely shut down and just choose your told to stay alive and hope that one day you can get out and be free but even when you're away and you're free you're not free it's really difficult to hear those words isn't it but during the year she was being abused Tina came into contact with the police on several occasions. She told officers what was happening to her,

but she was dismissed and ignored. Now, eventually there was an investigation, but by that point, trust had broken down to such an extent that Tina felt unable to cooperate. Earlier this year, though, Tina received an apology from Greater Manchester Police over those failures, and as a result, the force is now looking again at how they handled the case. Tell us more about the criminal conviction she received during this time. Yes, so the conviction for theft dates from 2010. Now during this time her ex-husband just simply controlled her life. She lived in fear and was forced to do things against her will. She now wants that conviction overturned because it could

affect her chances of getting a job. So she can't apply for any job that requires a DBS check because that conviction comes up every time. Tina just says she's simply desperate to continue with her life. It affects my life. I can't do things I want to do. I can't get the job I need to get. I want to get. It's just there all the time in the background. Simple things, going to certain countries I wouldn't be able to go to just every day, but in my head every day as well. And how confident are you now that you could get that conviction overturned? Hopeful, very hopeful, from the conversations I've had with people, organisations who are involved.

How much would it mean to you? The world. It would mean the world to me. So Anita, there could be many more cases similar to Tina's, more victims of modern slavery whose lives were being controlled when they committed their crimes. Now, those crimes might be anything like shoplifting, robbery, cannabis cultivation. Other victims of trafficking have had their convictions overturned in recent years. And Tina is now hopeful that she can get hers overturned so she can continue with her life. Thank you for that Richard and it was as you say incredibly distressing to hear Tina's

story. Well to discuss this further whether the conviction might be overturned and how many others might be in this position I'm joined by Professor Dame Sarah Thornton, who was the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner until April 2022 and is now Professor at Nottingham University and Consultant in Modern Slavery for CCLA Investment Management. And also Helen Pitcher, the Chair of the Criminal Cases Review Commission, the CCRC, is an independent UK body which has special powers to review alleged miscarriages of justice. It can refer cases to the appeal courts if there is a new argument or evidence that was not previously considered at trial. Helen, I'm going to come to you first. As Richard mentioned there, there is precedent here, isn't there?

The Criminal Cases Review Commission did overturn a conviction based on a defence of human trafficking for the first time only last October. Can you tell us more about that? What was that for? Yes, yes, certainly. And can I just clarify, we don't overturn the convictions. We refer back to the appellate courts if we think there's a reasonable possibility or an exceptional circumstance that allows us to do that. And trafficking and modern slavery does fall within those boundaries that enable us to make a referral back. We've made 13 referrals since last year, and there's a further 18 to 20 cases that we're looking at. That's just the tip of the iceberg of the ones we think are out there. And we are people's last recourse to justice, if you like, because a lot of these cases are guilty pleas in the magistrate's court. So the individuals have committed, as Richard was just saying, their theft, maybe moving drugs around.

There's a whole host of crimes that they then become convicted of. And if they pled guilty, they don't have the opportunity to appeal. So we are their last hope, if you like, within the criminal justice system to get their conviction looked at. Because like Tina's case, who you just mentioned, you cannot get DBS clearance if you have a criminal conviction against you. And there are certain other roles you can't apply for either. So it's a really, really important area. The early cases that came to us were largely Vietnamese cases. Typically, the cases didn't involve physical violence in the way that Tina's case sadly has, but they involved mental pressure, coercive control, for want of a better word.

So individuals did then carry out crimes for the person that had trafficked them. They felt they had no choice and therefore they were convicted. When they come to us, typically, which is unusual for cases that come to us, but typically they'll have legal representation because this is recognised as a really, really serious area where people need assistance. Our other applicants, and we get somewhere between 14 and 1600 a year, often don't have legal representation and that makes our job much harder. But if somebody came to us without legal representation and English wasn't their first language, we would regard that as an exceptional circumstance which would enable us to support them through a referral back to the appellate courts.

So that's very much how the system works. We're now finding that a number of the cases relate to what are known as county lines. And this is younger people who have been, if you like, groomed in order to start trafficking drugs across the county lines. So that then leads to a conviction for them too. And you get a conviction like that as a youth that will follow you throughout your whole career. So we would really encourage people to come to us because we can assist. We do have an easy read form. We're a totally free service.

There's lots of myths out there that we cost thousands of pounds. We don't. We are a completely free service and we will investigate the claims very, very thoroughly. And where there's found to be a reasonable possibility that the courts will look at this, we will refer it. I hope that helps. Well, how common are these cases that are being brought to you? Well, we've referred 13. We've got another 18 to 20.

As I said earlier, I think that's the tip of the iceberg when you hear how many complaints are being made to the Home Office about human trafficking. So I would just like to encourage anyone who believes they were coerced into committing a crime and found guilty as a result of human trafficking to come to us and we will support them through thinking about their claim, their application, and where we find just cause, we will refer. I'm going to bring Professor Dame Sarah Thornton in here because you were the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner until April 2022. I've got some figures here.

The last quarter, January to March 2023, saw 4,746 potential victims of modern slavery referred to the Home Office, the HEIST, since the referral system began. Are numbers going up? Why are they going up? The numbers are going up largely because I think police forces, border agencies, charities, local authorities are getting better at identifying when people are potentially victims of modern slavery and therefore reporting them into the Home Office. that I really want to acknowledge Tina's tremendous courage in speaking publicly about this, not just about the awful things that happened to her, but actually the way in which there's such a shadow cast over her life

and it's really impacting her ability to lead the sort of life that we would all want to lead. And I just wanted to acknowledge that at the very beginning. Absolutely. You said, you know, that the numbers are going up because the police are doing a better job, but actually something that did stand out for Tina's story, and I know you don't know the specifics of it,

but it was that she was ignored initially when she went to the police and that kind of broke down the trust. So the issue here is that people who are compelled to commit offences because they are victims of slavery and trafficking shouldn't be punished. It's a principle of the European Convention Against Trafficking and then we put it into our own legislation in the Modern Slavery Act in 2015.

It's known as Section 45. And basically if somebody's committed offence that they've been compelled to commit, that compulsion is because of their slavery or trafficking, and that a reasonable person in a similar situation would have no realistic option to do anything else, then they shouldn't be guilty of an offence. Now, ideally, as soon as police and prosecutors

are looking at a case where somebody could be a victim of slavery and trafficking, at that point, they should be looking into that at the very beginning. And while I would really hope that that would be happening in 2023, clearly in 2010, when Tina had a conviction, that didn't happen. And then, of course, when she went to court, I don't know whether she pleaded guilty or not, but I know there are many cases in the case that was just mentioned, the case of Mr. K that CCRC dealt with last year. Often lawyers can advise their clients to plead guilty because maybe you'll get a shorter sentence or they don't know about the Section 45 defence or they know about it and for some reason don't mention it. So it's really important when these miscarriages have taken place

that there is the opportunity to appeal against conviction. Helen, you are the CCRC. You're normally the last hope for alleged innocent victims of wrongful convictions and you're saying, you know, if people are listening that you are there and available for them to come forward. Surely there's a more efficient way of helping trafficked victims if they pled guilty they don't have recourse to an appeal at the moment um so they do need to come to us it

is an efficient process it's a supportive process um so i i think we were set well i know we were set up to deal with miscarriages of justice uh and as a backstop in the system we've been going for something like 26 years now and so my view is come forward uh if we can help, we will help. We will make it as smooth a process as possible for people, which is why we have the easy read form. And why shouldn't people have a recourse to justice? I just think it's really, really key. We saw it with the post office cases. It was exactly the same thing. It was guilty pleas largely in the magistrates courts. They couldn't have got recourse to justice without us. So I think it's really key. And just building on Sarah's point, I know that a lot of coercive control and human trafficking goes on. One of the other roles I have, I'm a chair of a national children's charity, which supports women in refuge. It's called Kids Out. And we find when we're supplying laptops and so on to the children in refuge, that often their mothers are being preyed on by drug dealers to work for them, to become prostitutes and to take drugs.

And then when they can't afford it, they ask for laptops and other supportive materials we've given to the families. It is rife and that is not right. Sarah, back to Tina, as we're calling her. She's British. How common is it for there to be British victims of modern slavery? It's a really interesting question because I think often people think that slavery and trafficking happen thousands of miles away. Or if they happen in the UK, it's people who've come here as migrants. In fact, last year in 2022, if you look at the Home Office statistics, the second largest group of victims identified were British victims.

And so some of them might be children in county lines, as was mentioned, maybe women who have been forced into the sex industry, as we have with Tina, or maybe people who've got addiction problems, who are just exploited in employment, such as construction and that sort of thing. So I think people might be surprised that there are so many potential British victims identified. And I think one of the difficulties is that when we listen to those victims and survivors, they often feel that the support that's provided isn't really geared towards their needs.

It's more geared to the needs of people maybe who come from abroad. And that's a really important issue. And you end up with a big debate about whose responsibility is it to provide support. Is it the local authority or is it the Home Office via their care contract? And that's not good for victims and survivors. And a new independent anti-slavery commissioner hasn't been appointed yet by the government, although you finished over a year ago. Are you surprised by that? I think it's deeply regrettable and I wish it wasn't the case. This is a post and independent commissioner role, which was established by Parliament.

It should not have been vacant for so long, but particularly in the light of the current illegal migration bill, which is going through Parliament, which will remove protections from victims of modern slavery. And that whole debate, and it has been in the House of Lords over the last week, has not been informed by the expertise of an independent anti-slavery commissioner. And I think that is regrettable. We need a commissioner who can look at the data, can look at the evidence and dispassionately and objectively give an expert view. And that has not been happening. Well, we have had a government statement on this from the Home Office

saying the UK has led the world in protecting victims of modern slavery and we will continue to identify and support those who've suffered intolerable abuse at the hands of criminals and traffickers. And on the recruiting of a new independent anti-slavery commissioner, the Home Secretary recognises the importance of the role of an independent anti-slavery commissioner. A new competition to recruit for the role was opened in February and is now at an advanced stage. So that's the statements we've had from the government.

I'd like to thank both Professor Dame Sarah Thornton and Helen Pitcher for joining me this morning to speak about that. If you'd like to get in touch with anything you hear about here on the programme and give us your opinion then please do. The text number is 84844. Lots of you getting in touch with stories about your nans. Rosamund emailed in to say, I've just named my baby girl Nora after my

brilliant grandma. She always had time for a game of cards and a toffee from the tin. Oh yeah, granny's tin. My nan dot was an utter joy she was 70 when i was born and my dad said it gave her a new lease of life some of my abiding memories of the 17 years i knew and loved her are pear drops geraniums her costume jewelry hang on wasn't this my gran she says i have it all now her beautiful singing stories of her time in the waaf and unconditional love.

I miss her so much. And Lizzie messaged to say, my grandma only had one leg. As kids, we used to love whizzing around on her scooter. But my favourite one leg memory is that she used to keep her spare false leg in the bathroom, which was absolutely terrifying when you go to the loo in the middle of the night and see a foot poking out from underneath the shower curtain. I'm not sure she'd be interested in TikTok if she was still with us, but maybe I could convince her to try out a one-legged dance routine with me.

Wonderful stories. Keep them coming in. 84844 is the number to text. Or you can email via our website. Now, on to my next guest. Gabrielle Zevin's best-selling novel, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, was published in hardback last year, and it's just out in paperback. It's a book about gaming and creativity and all sorts of love.

Sam and Sadie meet as children and bond over their passion for gaming. They go on to collaborate and build a successful startup together, creating computer games which are emotional and lyrical and which reflect and replay their lives and their experiences over more than 30 years. And Gabrielle, I'm delighted to say, is IRL in the flesh, in the studio. Wonderful to see you. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Best selling. It is best selling. Absolutely.

Lots of people listening might think, those who haven't read it, a book about gaming? Really? Why did you want to write about gaming? It's funny, every single review I read of the book, whether it's by a professional person or somebody who's on Bookstagram or whatever, it starts with the need to state your precise relationship to video games. I play them, I hate them, you know, and everything in between, basically. And I think it's strange, because everyone asks me about the topic. But really, you know, the whole point of literature is to read about worlds you don't know about yet. Nobody reads a book like Anthony Doerr's All the Light We Cannot See. And it's

like, I was never a soldier in World War Two, or that kind of thing. But, but yes, people seem to have strong feelings about games. And I think what attracted me to the subject was the first generation of people to play video games as children were born in the late 1970s and early 1980s. This also describes myself. And what I realized at a certain point was that the entire modern history of video games was contained within my lifetime. So I saw the story as kind of both a coming of age of an artist story for German fans, a Künstler Roman, but also the coming of age of this entire industry. Yes, how fascinating to think about it like that. We are and I'm exactly same generation as you. We were right at the beginning. Yes, right at the beginning. So what

was your first games console? My first games console. So my dad was a computer programmer, which means he thought that the only pure way to play a video game, if you were going to deign to play one, was on a PC. Yeah. You know, and so I didn't have a console until I was a grown woman. Yeah. I had to play at friends' houses, you know. We had a Commodore 64. You know what?

We had a Commodore 64, but no one was allowed to use it. What? Yeah, my parents bought it and then it kind of just like sat in a closet. Like they bought it when they were like young and it and then it kind of just like sat in a closet like they bought it when they were like young and free and were like playing video games so you weren't playing um decathlon on there i was playing nothing on there you know and i think so it's funny they were like attracted to video games as young people in computers but when their kid was born they were like no sir none of that you know and your dad was made it was a programmer as well

um we were we were all over that the putting in the tapes and the loading up and seven hours later you'd be there and your fingers are exhausted from having to try and get them to jump over, Daley Thompson to jump over the hurdles. Can you tell me about a couple of them? Because you've got these two characters, Sadie and Sam, as I've described, they're best mates. They meet when they're very young in hospital because Sadie's older sister is sick and Sam has had an accident, so he's in there. And they bond over gaming. And then you see their friendship develop

and eventually they create games together. So tell us about Maple World and both sides. If anyone is listening, is imagining wall to wall violence, that's not what they are. No, they're not that at all. You know, in a way, my theory about these games is that really the art people make, and I see video games as art, are reflections of the lives people live. You know, this is true of my novels, and it's true of the things that Sam and Sadie make in the book as well. You know, so with Maple World, this is a game that comes out of the failure of another game. And this is something we often see in video games, and actually tech generally, you know, you know, the best ideas kind of come from

sometimes things that didn't work in some other form. And I think, you know, it's a great lesson that I personally take from from tech, a positive lesson, for once from tech, you know, that we can build something new on the ashes of something else. And so Maple World really is that game. It's a land that's kind of like Animal Crossing, but has people but also magical people of various kinds in it. But it's more progressive. You know, I think it reflects a world that is better than the world that Sam and Sadie actually inhabit. You know, it's a more idealistic world. It's a utopia, really, you know, the game in the book comes out just after September 11, 2001. And so it's, they kind of worry, like, is this the right time for it? But in a sense, it's quite the right time for it, you know, in the book, because it allows people to be somewhere that seems more rational and well governed than the actual world does at that moment.

So are you going to consider a new career as a games designer? Because people from the games world have said these are very good games. They say that. But in a sense, it's all an illusion. You know, I think I thought very hard as I came up with the games world have said these are very good games. They say that, but in a sense, it's all an illusion. You know, I think I thought very hard as I came up with the games. I looked at the history of games and what in any given year was selling well, what people were playing, what the technology could do. But in the end, my burden in making a game for a book is so much less than the burden of an actual video game designer. You know, a game like Ichigo, which is like the

first game they make, or a game like Master of the Revels, which is a sort of Shakespeare game, would take, you know, if we're a AAA game studio, be like a team of, you know, at least 100 people, five years, $100 million. You know, it's a lot easier for me to say in three pages, you know, this is fun. Believe me, you know. Back to Sadie. Fascinating Sadie. Before she's even set foot in the workplace, she goes to Harvard, very clever lass that she is. And she's only one of two girls on the course. And I thought it was really interesting, the relationship between the two of them and how

they're having to navigate this space. Well, small correction, she goes to Massachusetts, MIT. Yeah, MIT. And, but it's set in the late 90s. Yeah. Yeah, I was interested in that time. So I believe at that moment, something like 30% of all the people at MIT were women, you know. And in a sense, there was this belief that wasn't true, that it was easier to get into MIT if you were a woman, because statistically more of them got in. But we know so much more about that. Women tend to self-eliminate. So a qualified woman will hold herself to an even higher standard

before applying to an elite math and engineering university. And so I think Sadie falls into that. So a lot of Sadie is about wanting to prove to all her classmates that she wasn't let into MIT on some kind of girl curve. Sadie, as I've mentioned, she's very, very clever. Have clever girls been left out of fiction, do you think? I think there's plenty of clever girls in fiction, you know. But the book is also about collaboration and startups.

And Bill Gates has written himself that you captured something crucial about these two things that he is possibly one of the best known examples of. So why do those two things interest you? Which two things that he is possibly one of the best known examples of. So why do those two things interest you? Which two things? Clever Girls and Startups and Collaborations or three things. There you go. Because they're all fascinating. And in a sense, because they are slightly underwritten about, you know, I think a lot of books lead to the same place. Even really, really great novels lead to sort of marriage and children and the buying of houses. But you know, we live in a world with increasingly complicated lives that have increasingly complicated outcomes. And you know, I think one of the things fiction is

meant to do is, well, if you think of the word novel, the synonym for it is literally new, you know. And so I think the thing contemporary fiction can do is reflect people's lives as they are lived, you know, and they help us to see people we haven't seen before. So I don't know that I've seen a character like Sadie Green precisely, you know, I was, I was kind of laughing before, I think there are clever girls in fiction, and there definitely are. But I don't know that there has been an elite game designer like Sadie before in fiction. We're going to move away from the novel and into the real world because I want to know what you make of the two biggest men in tech,

Mark Zuckerberg of Meta and Elon Musk of Twitter, challenging each other to a cage fight that's been all over the news. You can't make it up, can you? What do you think this message sends out? Well, you didn't ask me to choose a side on that. I would go with Zuckerberg, you know, if anybody's asking. He's my, well, we went to the same university, but also, so I have to sort of root for him. But I feel like he would train and be more meticulous in leading up to the event.

And, you know, it's fascinating, really. And I think it's amazing how quickly all of us are to sign up for Threads. I myself signed up for it yesterday. Yes. And I was fine with doing it. I'm not sure how I'm going to use it yet. So Threads is the new sort of Zuckerberg's Twitter. Yes, Zuckerberg's Twitter. Does that make sense?

It launched midnight last night, the night before? I joined up this morning. Yeah. And I think what's really fascinating about it is how much people were eager to still converse in that way, but not be on Twitter anymore. Even though effectually, you know, sorry, lawyers of threads, it is kind of the same thing. Do you think COVID-19 changed people's relationship with gaming? I do. I think a lot of women particularly gamed for the first time. We saw women kind of playing Animal Crossing. with gaming? I do. I think a lot of women particularly gamed for the first time we saw

women kind of playing Animal Crossing. I played like Stardew Valley during the pandemic, which is a kind of Animal Crossing like game for people that don't actually want to socialize. But I remember at a certain point, during the kind of, you know, worst parts of the pandemic, I was walking through Stardew Valley, and the cherry blossom trees were all a bloom, and the leaves were falling down as I just walked through this beautiful meadow. And I thought to myself, it's really peaceful here, you know. And I think in a sense, because so much of our lives were lived virtually during the pandemic, I think a lot of us became more comfortable with the idea that

even virtual time is still real time. The things we do online are still real, you know. And we're, you know, honestly, just as a side point, social media is still so very young, you know. We only have, I think YouTube only came around in 2005, you know, Facebook, et cetera, not that long after that. And if you think about that, we're just babies in terms of social media or teenagers, you know, and just because we've been sort of awful so far

doesn't mean that that's what they're all going to lead to forever. In fact, I think the sort of fate of our entire species relies on the fact that we figure out how to use the internet well. Oh, I like that. Just because we were talking about games, what games would you recommend for our listeners who might never have played one or quite fancy after listening to you talk? Something really straightforward.

Well, it's funny. I feel like almost everybody does game even when they say they don't, you know. So if you're using Instagram, that's the kind of game. Maybe it's a bad game, but it's one in which you're pursuing likes and it has a currency, in other words, to it. So that's a game. And I feel like almost everybody at least plays Wordle, you know, or something like that. But in terms of actual computer games, it seems like, you know, I think for a long time in games, it was quite sexist what was considered good versus what was considered bad. Good was usually violent and complicated.

Bad was anything simple and for women. So and, you know, over 50% of people who game are actually women. But the kind of games they play are games like Stardew Valley, are games like Animal Crossing. And so I think those are great places to start for somebody who just wants to casually enter into gaming. And it's literally a category called casual games. We did an item on this very program about a study that was done by the Universities of Glasgow and Cardiff. They found that male characters speak twice as much as female characters in role-playing video games and when the female characters do speak they're more likely to apologize hesitate or express express gratitude what do you make of that and the way they're visually depicted

yes is ridiculous you know you can't find I think a single video game character, you know, from the like 90s, who doesn't, who is a female who doesn't have like, enormous breasts. And, you know, that's, that's, it's interesting. But I think something really cool about video games is how much it allows people to experiment with gender, like a lot of people play, you know, even the kind of like bro-iest bros will play the female character when given the option you know and i think that's interesting when you think about we've only had that as uh an option this kind of video game experience for about you know 30 years now and and how that maybe has you know impacted culture overall in terms of seeing gender identity is slightly more fluid interesting but but they are

they're terribly sexist and have a lot of sexist ideas in them. And I think it's probably a sexism that is not unique to video games, but the certain myths around it, like the idea that games with female main characters will sell less. But then you look at something like Lara Croft, and that has sold plenty. So why do we say that? But when you believe that, that means people don't spend money and people still repeat that kind of thing. And so you don't see like female game creators kind of rise to the heads of teams because they don't think they have a particularly unique experience to offer, you know. I want to talk about success and failure because you are a huge overnight success with your 10th novel. In fact, two others did really well. But you are keen to talk about

failures. I think we don't talk about it enough. And especially for women. Yeah, you know, I think when I was an overachiever, I went to Harvard, you know, and I think I was terrified of failure, you know, and when my first novel came out, guess what, it failed. And I remember I was, like, just after that, I walked around New York City and I was pretty sure everybody was judging me and everyone knew that Gabrielle Zevin had failed. You know, that the guy at the like, you know, grocery store was like, that's Gabrielle Zevin. We don't want to sell you, you know, bagels because she her first novel has failed. But of course, that was ridiculous narcissism. Nobody knew that I had failed. Nobody knew anything about it. But I think the thing I've gotten really good at, and I think this is true for anybody in any career in the arts and probably any career period, is getting over failure. Failure is inevitable. It's as inevitable as death, you know. And if you try something, and you really try something, you know, there is a chance you will fail.

So I've had to get over this kind of like, need to always appear perfect. And it's led me into the most interesting places creatively and the most interesting places in my life. What a liberating place to be, Gabrielle. And I was just gonna say, it's the sort of external pressure that's put on women as well. We're not allowed to fail. No, we're not allowed to fail, you know. And I think it's really, really sad. And they say that, you know, we're talking a bit about that. But when, you know,

girls tend to raise their hands less in class and ask fewer questions and this kind of thing, and it's all part of the same need to appear perfect. Well, I will say the book is excellent and it's been such a pleasure speaking to you. I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

Thank you. It's called Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow and it's been such a pleasure speaking to you. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. It's called Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow and it's out in paperback. Thank you. Thank you, Anita. Now. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. Have you heard of Nan Talk? It's a trend on TikTok in which people post videos with their nan showing and loving and sometimes spirited dynamic between grandmothers and their grandchildren. It's joyful. If you've come across this before, then you may well have heard of Jess and Norma.

Jess is 27. Norma is 89. They're super close and see each other every day. They're from a small town in Nottinghamshire and they post videos to their 1.4 million followers showing everyday moments of their life. In one video, they're eating fish and chips together. In another, Norma is critiquing Jess's fashion choices. Well, I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Norma and her granddaughter, Jess. Welcome to Woman's Hour to both of you. Thank you very much. It's lovely to have you. Jess I'm going to come to you first. Why did you start posting videos showing life with your nan? So I've always posted my nan on my personal social medias and I was posting them a lot on Snapchat and everybody would reply and

say your nan is so sweet, so funny. You need to put her on TikTok. So I did just that. I posted a video of my nan and the video was her, she wasn't very keen on my brother's first tattoos and it did really quite well on there. And then it just continued to grow. So Norma, how does it feel going viral at 89 oh i just can't describe it i can't no how are you how are you enjoying the fame norma

well we've had some very lovely people stop us when we go out we never get very far without someone coming up and saying oh you're less than normal and that's the thing I kind of was used to but you know everyone has been so lovely and so nice and I have to have a picture taken on some of them don't I yeah yes it's been an adventure that has really come to this that I am comfortable with it. I'm very happy about it. Good. That's what we like to hear. And in one video, Norma, Jess bought a very tiny bikini. You didn't seem too keen on it. I wonder what you generally think about the fashion young people wear today? Some of them I think look exactly right but it's things that you think, oh my goodness, whatever would my mum have thought about?

The thing that strikes me as much as anything is a young girl in a very pretty summer dress and then she's got boots on. Oh, yeah. That doesn't go well with me. But I like that. This is where we're different, isn't it? Yeah, well, look at the years. They're a lot different.

We had our fashion. I wasn't exactly... My dad still can't there to touch them. My dad still can't understand the boots things. He just says, oh, you've got your bother boots on. I think we should

let everyone hear an example of one of your very, very funny TikTok moments. Norma, in some of the videos you're trying to give

Jess money and sometimes the two of you bicker over it. Here's an example. Nan, I'm going to put it in your purse. No, please don't, Jessica. Don't upset me.

Why? It's all right, but stuff takes money these days. Come on. No, I'll put it back. No, no, no, no, no. Please, no. Oh, Nan. Well, if you could accept it in the way I've given it to you,

with love and help, so put it in your ear. It's such a lovely moment. It's so relatable. And I have to just give everyone context who hasn't seen it. They're in the car and all you see is Norma eating fish and chips, trying to slip. Jess, is it a tenner? Yeah, it's a tenner, yeah.

Norma, why do you want to give her money because it gives me pleasure to see her happy and i don't want her to get you know prices of petrol and things like that yes i love to help back i can't even buy you a pint of milk without you trying to stop me. Well, there are other things, Jess, that you bring in, definitely. But, you know, it gives me pleasure. I feel like I've helped her back how she helps me. Yeah. How does she help you? Oh, she's an absolute angel.

You know, Jess knows everything as it goes along, what I'm doing, what I want, every step I take, especially in the shower. She just knows. You know, if I say something like, could you get me some fresh bread out of the freezer? She shouts back, I've done it. She sees everything and she's a great comfort.

I've got a lovely family, Jess's mum my daughter she works long hours so Jess does the majority of it but they're always there for me why are you so close do you think Jess I think it's because my mum and dad were divorced when I was quite young and obviously my mum had to work, that's just life isn't it, she had to and I spent a lot of time with you didn't I? Yes you did We spent a lot of time together and I think that has just made us have this special bond and now It seemed to come like this sort of all of a sudden but I can't tell you when it happened

I think as I've matured I've really realized what my nan gave me as a child and how special it was and I think I'm now at an age where I want to give her that back and we are very fortunate that we can spend so much time together it's amazing it is we love it don't we we do all we do is laugh I know that's what I was going to say you've got a very similar sense of humour. You do make each other keel over with laughter quite often, don't you? Go on. We make each other keel over with laughter.

Oh, you know, sometimes I can't get my breath for laughing. I can't. It's just we answer each other back. We've got a good banter between us. You really do. We're on the same wavelength, but when me, you and my mum are together, all three of us, it's even worse. It's beautiful to watch, you know, the generations

and the connection between you. It really is. Norma, a lot of people feel quite lonely in society, especially older people. I just wondered what you might think about this. What do you think about older people being lonely? It's frightening. It bothers me dreadfully.

Someone on their own and probably no relations and something goes wrong and they have to use the phone and they don't know quite who to ring. I don't have any of that. And I think it's sad i think everybody should love somebody and be loved back that's very nice bit of advice there thank you norma um and i want to know about other advice that uh your nan might give you jess what about dating advice oh she's very very good with that um so my partner jake when i first started seeing

him i wasn't sure he didn't want anything serious and he made that very clear so i told my nan about the situation we do tell each other everything yes we do yeah and she said no no my love you go he'll soon realise he'll know um and here we are three years later and happier than ever and they are so happy it's just my heart good to see that is he a nice lad is he a nice lad

absolutely he's one of a kind he is yeah I never expected you to meet someone like that no me neither I'm very lucky

you two you're making my heart melt this morning and what do your mates make if you're spending so much time with your nan they know that we've always been like this so it's not um unusual to them I don't think but I don't think they spend as much time with their grandparents I think we're a bit of an unusual well possibly because um people have to go out to work and yeah you know um a lot of people live quite far away from their grandparents and certainly a lot of my friends do so it's not as

easy but we've always been so close yes well when jess said at home she's got her own home now we're about five minutes away around the corner my. My daughter's still there and my grandson. So, you know, they come round here at the drop of a hat. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you can't really get rid of us, can you? Oh, I don't know. Caden's a bit fidgety.

Yeah. But he's just 20 and, you know, he's a young lad and he's lovely. It's been absolutely lovely speaking to both of you and what was the advice? You said everyone needs a bit of love. Well you've filled Radio 4 with a lot of love just listening to the two of you speak. Loads of people are getting in touch with stories about their own nans

based on the two of you. Someone has messaged in to say, Claire has said, My granny was everything to me when I was little. She died just before my son was born 14 years ago. Barely a week goes past without me reaching for the phone to tell her something. Hers is the number I still remember off by heart. I'm 50, but I will never forget the shape of her hands or the smile she had just for me. And someone else's message to say, my grandmother Vera was a legend. She was a larger than life Lancashire mill worker with a wicked

sense of humour, a huge heart and she could play any tune on the piano by ear. We used to drink Bristol cream sherry and eat chocolate gingers together when she babysat me. Just lovely. Norma and Jess, I want to wish you all the best of luck for the future. Can't wait to see what comes next. And it's been wonderful speaking to you this morning thank you 84844 keep your nan stories coming in i'll give you one more because they are rather lovely anita my nana lived in a pit village in durham and i spent lots of time with her in that wonderful community before the pits were closed she sadly died when i was 10 but in the years before that

i stayed with her and granddad often she was was a classic nana, much more tolerant and mischievous than my parents. She liked her stout and would take me to the bingo and tell me funny and naughty tales of her youth. I still miss her decades later. Wonderful to read these out. Now, a new documentary series has been released, which looks at the career of Elvis Presley through the eyes of the women in his life. Barbara Shearer is the director of the three-part series Elvis's Women, which has secured interviews with many of his ex-girlfriends. You may have heard about his marriage to Priscilla Presley, which lasted from 1967 to 1973,

but this series focuses on the other women in his life, from his mother Gladys to his many girlfriends. Some of the women say that their relationship with Elvis began when they were teenagers, prompting many reviews to dub this as a potential Me Too moment for the rock and roll singer. Well, to tell us more, I am joined, as I said, by the director of the series, Barbara Shearer, who's speaking to me from Toronto.

Welcome to Woman's Hour, Barbara. Thank you. Lovely to have you. What attracted you to this project? Were you a fan of his? Actually, I wasn't. I didn't know much about Elvis at all. He's not from my generation,

but I probably knew as much as anyone else that he was some sort of beloved American icon, wonderful singer. That's about it. So I kind of came into this with a clean slate, which I think was really important when you're approaching any series, really any documentary. And I've done so much. I traditionally come from a crime background. And so I've done a lot of that. So this to me was a little bit exciting and different to move into

discovering Elvis Presley through the lens of the many women he dated. Yeah, it has an investigative feel to it. How did you track these women down? Were they all willing to come forward and speak to you? Yeah. In fact, we interviewed, probably pre-interviewed over 50 women. And then we drilled down into the 15 or so that are in the series, the three-part series. And we also aligned with one of our experts in the series, Suzanne Finstead and the other expert is Alana Nash. And they had already done a lot of they'd already written a lot of books about Elvis Presley and some of the women he was involved with, et cetera.

So we found some of the voices through those women which was great and then just just through basic research facebook i mean there's such an ecosystem around the elvis presley world it's uh it's not difficult to find some of these women some were tougher than others but basically uh we came across many of them and because it's a three-part series, we deal with it in decades. So it's the 50s, 60s, and 70s. And I wanted to have a number of voices from the 50s to show his rise to stardom, certain number of women in the 60s to talk about who he was

during the Army and then his movie career, and then during, you know, Graceland and Priscilla, and then in the 70s when he had his comeback and divorce and hit Vegas. So very different decades, very different versions of Elvis, very different women. And some of the interviewees who had relationships with him said they were teenagers at the time. One of the women you interviewed, Jackie, said she met him. Was she 13 or 14 when he was 21? So what did she tell you about their relationship?

Well, yeah, I mean, that particular relationship was interesting. It was not sexual. She was starstruck. It's important once you see the series to see that these women's, the age thing is really, really sticky subject. And we dived into it. We did not avoid it whatsoever. I'm a female documentary filmmaker and it's 2023.

It's like, you have to talk about this. And it's quite often been danced around in the Elvis narrative. So in particular, when you speak about Jackie Rowland, I mean, she was young, but she visited her mother. She was always in the company of her mother. Her mother took her to the house, didn't she? Exactly. So so that was interesting.

So these some of the parents were just as starstruck as the as the as the young women. So, yeah, that that was quite a chaste relationship. And but it's adorable. And to this day, what I think is interesting about a lot of these women is that they still view Elvis as one of the loves, if not the love of their life. Yeah, they don't see themselves, do they not see themselves as victims? They don't. They actually don't see themselves as victims or abused or groomed or any of those things. So then how should we think about it? Exactly. I was just going to say now, I think it's important and how we laid out the documentary is it's not narrated. So the platform

is really about all these women's voices and their experiences. And we've set it up so the audience can decide for themselves. It doesn't matter what I think. It matters to hear these women's voices and their experience of Elvis and let the audience decide. Listen, I wouldn't let my niece or kid anywhere near a rock star. Okay. At 14 or 13. And that's what Jackie says, doesn't she? I mean, she was 13 when her mum took her to see Elvis at the house.

But then she says she has a 14-year-old granddaughter and she wouldn't let her near, you know, anyone. She just says, no, no, no, that would not happen. What does that tell us? Well, I think there's definitely an inappropriateness around this, if not more. But again, these women didn't see it that way. So I'm letting them speak and tell their truths. But how we feel is you can make up your mind when you watch the show.

Another relationship that you explore, which is fascinating, is the one with his mother, Gladys. The mother is absolutely keen. Tell us all about Gladys. It is so interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gladys is interesting. In fact, she was the true love of Elvis's life.

And most of the women would say that as well, that they, having spent time with him, and the women would say that as well, that they, having spent time with him and the women in the fifties who we deal with met her. So they would say, they did say on screen, it's like, she was his North star. She was the most important woman in his life. She vetted some of these girlfriends. She, she picked women. She told Elvis who she thought he should marry. She did not want him marrying an actress or involved with actresses. Or anyone who wasn't a virgin. Or anyone who wasn't a virgin. That was key too.

So she really informed his way from a very young age. And he trusted her much more than he did his father. The mother was really the one who Elvis listened to. So her loss when he was in the army was seismic. It was the turning point for Elvis. Elvis became very reckless after that. And I don't think moving forward for the rest of his life, he ever found anyone that filled the void that his mother left. How do you think she informed his idea and approach to relationships? Well, it's interesting.

I mean, he had dalliances with a lot of actresses during his Hollywood period in the 60s. But Elvis, when you look at the girlfriends that we approached and we were that are in the series who had who were more than dalliances, that was also important that we interview women who actually spent significant amount of time with him, like a Linda Thompson, who actually was with him for four years and lived at Graceland or Ginger, who is his fiance. I mean, these women were very much involved with Elvis for a certain amount of time. They weren't light relationships. And so when you look at that, these are women who are really small town girls. Some of them

were beauty queens, but most of them were just small town girls, not models, not actresses. I think it made Elvis very comfortable to be in their presence because that's how he saw himself. He didn't see himself as this mega star. He saw himself as just a kid from Memphis or a kid from Tupelo, Mississippi initially. And how do you feel about Elvis, Barbara, having made this documentary series? Well, it was definitely an education. I mean, what I discovered was what a complicated and paradoxical man he was. I see the charisma, though. I see the charm. I see why women would just be so attracted to him. He was a gentleman in a lot of ways, regardless of, you know, this sort of murky area of like this age, 14 young girls, which don't get me wrong, I'm not skirting. I just mean it's complicated. It's much more complicated story. It's much more complicated man than you would, than I ever thought he was. And people can make their own minds up because they can

watch the series. 100% they will. And when they see can watch the series. A hundred percent they will. And when they see the context of the series, I think they will. Thank you so much. Wonderful speaking to you, Barbara Shearer. And you can watch Elvis' Women. It's now on Prime Video. I'm just going to end the program with some of your comments coming in about your wonderful grannies.

My dear granny would roll up a green one pound note and slip it to me. She had no teeth but could suck the kernels off a corn on the cob. Andy says, dear Anita, my gran was born in 1896 and died in 2005. So she lived through the whole of the 20th century. My daughter was born 108 years and 11 months after my gran. And one of my most treasured photos is of my gran holding my one month old daughter in her arms on my gran's 109th birthday. She died later that year. All my children and I knew a Victoria. Thank you so much for your company today. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Imagine if you could get hold of your favourite pop star's personal mobile phone. What might you find out? I was like, this is a crime. This is the story of how a group of Korean pop stars and their friends were caught sending each other videos of women they'd secretly filmed during sex, some of whom weren't even awake.

So what if she's unconscious? You raped her. An investigation that blew the lid off digital sex crimes in a country divided along gender lines. The result of all this is a shattering of faith and trust in Korean men. I'm Chloe Hajimotheou and from BBC Radio 4, this is Burning Sun, part of the Intrigue podcast feed. All episodes are available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.