Woman's Hour - Should maternity leave be extended for corona-era parents?

Episode Date: May 19, 2020

The parents of a six month old have set up a petition asking the government to extend maternity leave by an extra three months. They believe that the lockdown has meant parents have missed out on the usual things you’d do on maternity, putting them at a disadvantage. There’s already been a parliamentary Q&A about this, and the signatures are still coming in. It’s not know yet whether it’ll be debated in the House of Commons but there will be another Q&A session on Thursday this week. Jane discusses the arguments with the petition's originator.After the summer half term holiday, some children will be returning to school. Those in reception and years 1,6, 10 and 12 will be the first to be welcomed back to the classroom in just under two weeks’ time. Many headteachers have begun speaking to parents about their concerns and their likely decision. We discuss the issues that parents are having to weigh up and the pressures that they face. In her new book of short stories ‘The Ministry of Guidance and Other Stories’, Golnoosh Nour shares the rich and varied experiences of queer Iranians. She talks to Jane about how her writing was inspired by interviews with her friends, and how she wanted to depict strong Iranian women to counteract their regular portrayal as victims.Samaritans volunteers have always been there, 24 hours a day, to listen to people in crisis. But how are they coping with the added strain of coronavirus? Listener Anne from Folkestone talks about her experience for today’s Woman’s Hour Corona Diary. Even before lockdown, younger people were turning to gardening in their droves – filling their Instagram feeds with beautifully tended houseplants and waxing lyrical about the therapeutic effects. But now we’re all housebound, more people might be tempted to transform their surroundings. But how easy is it to get gardening for the first time? Alice Vincent and Claire Ratinon give us their advice. Alice is a recent convert, she gardens on a balcony in London and her real time gardening audiobook “Seeds from Scratch” comes out this week. Claire Ratinon wouldn’t have thought twice about growing anything until 5 or 6 years ago – but she now specialises in growing food organically in urban spaces and her book “How to grow your dinner without leaving the house” comes out in August.Presenter - Jane Garvey Producer - Anna Lacey Guest - James Zammit-Garcia Guest - Cheryll Adams Guest - Katherine Birbalsingh Guest - Anne Guest - Alice Vincent Guest - Claire Ratinon Guest - Golnoosh Nour

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and somehow or other we've got ourselves to Tuesday the 19th of May 2020. On the programme today, we are going to look again, unashamedly returning to this subject because it's so much on people's minds at the moment. The idea that some pupils in England may be going back to school on the 1st of June. How are you feeling about that? We'll get the opinion of one headteacher on the programme today. And are you turning to gardening for comfort and succour in lockdown?

How's it going for you? If you're new to gardening, we have some advice for you on the programme today. First of all, we're looking at whether maternity leave should be extended because of the lockdown. The parents of a six-month-old have so far got 200,000 signatures, in fact more, we're looking at whether maternity leave should be extended because of the lockdown. The parents of a six-month-old have so far got 200,000 signatures, in fact more, to a petition asking the government to extend maternity leave by three months. Now, it isn't known yet whether this issue will be debated in the Commons. That normally happens when a petition goes over 100,000 signatures. One of the organisers is James, and we'll also have a word goes over 100,000 signatures. One of the organisers is James,

and we'll also have a word with Cheryl Adams, who's Executive Director of the Institute of Health Visiting. And Cheryl, I think, broadly supports this idea of extending maternity leave. James, good morning to you. Tell us why you feel so strongly about this. Well, you know, it seems to be mothers, young mothers, mothers of young children, should I say, that was on maternity leave have seemed to have been, you know it seems to be mothers are young mothers or mothers of young children should

i say um those on maternity leave have seemed to have been you know massively overlooked by the government they are one of the nothing's ever been mentioned of them in any of the briefing any of the um papers anything that's been released so you know we we campaigned to to put that extension out there for for an additional three months. That's all we're asking for, really. You know, maternity leave is 52 weeks. You're paid for 39, you take 13 weeks unpaid. We're asking for those last 13 weeks to be paid at the statutory maternity pay rate

and just to give the option then to take a further 13 weeks unpaid after that 12 months if you want to um you know a lot of a lot of mothers are facing going back to work in the next you know six eight ten weeks um to a job that they can't be furloughed in that there's no no chance of that happening or uh anyone then to you know look after their children because they can't send them to grandparents which a lot of people would they can't send them to grandparents which a lot of people would rely on or send them to any child care facilities that might be open so there's a child care issue there's a mental health issue you know people have got um obviously it's

mental health week this week um people have got postnatal depression and any other yeah um tell us a little bit about your own circumstances you and your your partner, Jesse, have a six month old son. Yes. I know we were hoping to talk to Jesse on the programme today, but the baby's had a bit of an unsettled night, which I know is it's not unusual at that time. Doesn't mean it's easy, though, by the way. How has her maternity leave been, would she say well it's been it's been a bit a bit rough at the start to be honest with you you know uh our baby had surgery uh when he was just six weeks old um so i then had to take time off work obviously unpaid to to do that uh to be around for that because it was just too much for one person to handle um and then you know it's a case of you've got this tiny little baby who's just had surgery you've got no confidence to take the baby out and you know in the car on your own or just

even go out for a walk because you've not got the confidence because he's so fragile so small and he's just had surgery um so we kind of you know we took him out when we could. We went to various shops. We went to visit people when I was there. We used to take him to swimming lessons on a Sunday morning. All of that just stopped. We just built the confidence up to then take the baby out on our own in the car or out for a walk, just one of us, just to see how that was. And obviously now we can't really do that other than go out for a walk

because it's just not safe for the baby out there. So an extension of three months would allow that confidence. I would have to start again because obviously mothers don't want to take their children into any shops anywhere where you know they could pick up anything at all um of course some people will have actually had a baby during lockdown and won't even have been able to take advantage of those opportunities that you and jesse did at least have at the start before i could be on that i've got a family member who had a baby during lockdown

and the baby's dad was only allowed in the hospital when she was in established labour. And once the baby was born, he then had to leave until they were ready to be discharged from the hospital. It's really tough. And also you're missing out on the opportunities, for example, to look at nurseries.

I'm imagining you can't go can you we can't go and we're not just going to settle for any nursery that we that we know well there's a nursery there we could we can we can take them there we're not going to settle for that we want to be able to go and visit nurseries have a feel for the place and it's also um some nurseries will offer like tester days just before a couple of weeks before they're due to start to go to nursery. They'll go into nursery for a test today, see how the baby is, you know, will come away for an hour or so. And it's all of that kind of transition period that we're not going to be able to have if mothers have to go back to work straight away because we've not got this extension. I'm going to talk to Cheryl Adams now from the Institute of Health Visiting.

Cheryl, you're not a union, you're about raising standards in your profession, but I gather you do broadly support what James and Jessie are trying to do. I think it's been beautifully described by James just what the challenges for new parents have been under lockdown and COVID. I think there's been so much obviously attention on hospitals and needing to treat people and the needs of families have perhaps been forgotten. It's been a big concern of the Institute. So I think this petition, if nothing else, is really shining a light on the needs of young families. Yes, I mean, it's a very difficult thing, isn't it? The government has obviously had to already pay out a lot of money. Whether they can afford to also do this, I don't know. That's for them to decide. I think different families have different needs and certainly for some families to be trying to find childcare at a time and needing to go back just this lockdown that finishes needing to go choose a

nursery you want to look at several nurseries are they open yet um obviously there's the thought about infection and spread of infection a lot lots and lots of anxiety and if it's your first baby particularly yes you know as james has described really really a worrying time to to be leaving your baby for the first time yeah absolutely can you give us some insight into how health visitors are working at the moment if i could think of one practical example it would be helping somebody through breastfeeding in its early stages not always easy to do not always easy to keep doing how can you help somebody do you do it on zoom uh they do do it on zoom whatsapp facetime and and all these different video despite devices

apparently quite successful using a doll I've had some very triumphant health visitors say great I've got established and then it's going well but health visitors are still doing some home visits and if they're very concerned they will risk assess they may visit in the garden because obviously if there is a garden that's that's safer and easier. They may visit in the garden because obviously if there is a garden, that's safer and easier. Otherwise, they may visit in the home. They may wear PPE. They may not. It just depends on the circumstances. A lot of, in fact, most organisations have set up helplines. The other thing to say about breastfeeding is that there are very well-established peer support services in this country and they've been continuing to run. They've gone online too.

Right, online. I mean, it's fine if you're at ease with doing everything online, but not so easy if actually in the case of breastfeeding, often sometimes, frankly, you need someone to, well, let's be honest about this, physically manipulate your nipple in the right way to make it all work. You do though, don't you? You do.

You absolutely do. I mean, getting the baby attached is the most important thing you know appropriately attached with breastfeeding i mean once you you've achieved that then then usually you're off um so yes i mean that's very difficult um and yes it's about talking things through but but no it's not ideal and obviously home visiting actually being sitting with somebody helping them supporting them is the real answer. But we're having to compromise. I mean, that's where we are. Of course. Well, everybody is making a whole string of compromises right now.

James was a little concerned about postnatal depression. And it's easy to see why, because it never matters more actually in your life than at this time to be able to get out and meet other people in a similar situation absolutely and unfortunately health visitors are reporting increased levels of postnatal depression and anxiety and i don't think it's a surprise um particularly first-time mums are there at home with a baby they're going to be feeling very lonely because they can't see their family they can't get out as james described even going for walks might be an anxiety it's actually probably very safe but but i can understand why they might feel concerned about it and that anxiety builds up um and obviously yes um you know depression can can follow i think the other thing is that you know little things become very big

things when you're at home with a new baby. The day can seem very long. And my advice is that GPs are open, health visiting services are open, midwives are there. So if anybody listening is feeling anxious, please, please pick up the phone and actually call one of the services. The health visitors will get back to you. Thank you very much, Cheryl. I appreciate you coming on. That's Cheryl Adams, who is from the Institute of Health Visiting. And just very briefly, James, any idea whether this is going to be debated in the comments? Any news on that? Well, there is an early day motion being tabled on the 13th of May by Gavin Robinson, the Democratic Unionist Party from East Belfast.

He's tabled it. And so far far there's 12 signatures to it so basically his um his early day motion says you know these debates are not gonna happen um at present because of obviously because of the lockdown uh but he's asked the they said that the house recognized the importance of this the social interaction and building bonds with extended family circles and wider society and that he has asked the government to consider the proposal positively um so we can just hope that you know we've got more mps signing on to that early day motion um since i've been on the radio to you today our um petitions gone up to 219 000 it was 218 000 yesterday the sheer power of woman's hour that is, mate, to be honest, but I'm sure

that may well change over the course of the day. Thank you very much. All the best to you and to Jesse and to your young son as well. That was James in Liverpool and you also heard from Cheryl Adams who is from that Institute of Health Visiting. So over to you, what do you think about that?

The possibility of extending maternity leave by three months. You can email the programme or of course get in touch on Twitter at BBC Women's Hour. Obviously there is a cost to the taxpayer, that's indisputable. Next Monday's programme is all about this issue because there clearly is a lot to get at here right now. What has it been like for you if you are on maternity leave, particularly perhaps if it's your first child or maybe you're struggling because you've got toddlers and a newborn and you're finding all this really tough? We desperately want your stories.

Well, I mean desperately in a positive way. We would love to hear from you between now and Monday morning. So if you can email us with the full story when you get the chance, I appreciate you're busy, via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. What's it been like to have a baby and to be caring for a baby during lockdown? So June the 1st, some children in England are due to go back to school. That's reception and years 1, 6, 10 and 12. Key workers' children, of course, have been carrying on in many cases with their education.

Catherine Burblesingh is the founder and the head of the Michaela Community School in Brent in North London. And we'll hear from her in a moment and get her take on what she thinks should be happening. But first of all, have a quick listen to this. This is a mum called Gemma. She was speaking to BBC Radio Cumbria. She lives in Cockermouth and she doesn't want to send her daughter back so early. The only way that would make me feel comfortable returning lazy back to school would be for everybody to go back to normal. And obviously the only way that that's going to happen is when the death rates are that low

that it's not going to start a second wave or it's going to keep spreading anymore. That is the voice and the opinion of Gemma, who was a listener to BBC Radio Cumbria. Catherine Burblesingh, your school has about 600 pupils, doesn't it? It's a secondary school. Yeah, we have about 700. Right, 700, apologies. And you're in a very busy part of northwest London, Brent, with a varied population and a mix of people and a mix of pupils. What are you hearing, first of all, from parents about

how they regard a possible return to school? Well, I mean, of course. What are you hearing, first of all, from parents about how they regard a possible return to school? Well, I mean, of course, parents are concerned. Some parents, some children are desperate to get back into school. I mean, in fact, I think they all miss it. Some parents are more worried than others. I mean, our position is very much that parents need to make the decision that they feel comfortable with, just as parents do every day. Every time you send your child out to school, there is a risk they might get hit by a car. In particular, in the inner city, there is the danger of knives. I know our families are always very worried about the safety of our children, and some of them end up getting mugged and all sorts of horrible things

can happen. So, you know, it is a decision that parents need to take. I understand the government's position, which is that they want to try and get the country going back to normal. Whether or not that's the right time, I don't know, because I'm not a virologist, but I do also understand the need for the economy to be stimulated again. I worry very much about our families, for instance, who are cleaners, are job men working in retail. I don't know how they're going to feed

their families on the other hand you have to bear in mind your bame pupils and parents are they more concerned than some other parents for example um the thing is a lot of parents who are not i mean it's difficult because your listeners won't necessarily know the communities that we work with. They're not as informed and they might not listen to the news. And so they don't really know of the dangers that a more middle class environment might be more aware of. You're talking about some of your parents. of course will be highly informed well i don't know we don't have any our community is is um well it's i i don't know i don't know about that actually i mean uh they oh i don't know i ran into one of the mums um on the street the other day and um she was wearing some

blue gloves so she had an idea obviously that some you know that there is an issue but she saw me and she ran to give me a hug and it hadn't really occurred to her that um she shouldn't she shouldn't hug me um you know that that sort of behavior I ran into one of the children, I dropped the cap to my bottle, my water bottle on the ground, he immediately picked it up. Different communities will have access to different amounts of information. And I'm not sure, look, we had a family who rang up the other day um asking when the GCSE exams were starting um and this is despite several letters and emails me actually myself talking to her son and explaining to him one-on-one that the exams were no longer happening um there's a lot of confusion and um I think also there's a lot of confusion even just from the teachers it's funny

when you introduced just a moment ago you said that on June the 1st, years 10 and 12 would be going back. And I thought, well, are they going back? I don't really know. I mean, and the thing is, we don't know. We know that primary are going back. You make a good point, because what has actually been said was that years 10 and 12 pupils will have an opportunity to, I think, spend time with teachers was the expression. Yes, face to face time. I don't know what that means. And none of that has been made clear. So headteachers of secondary schools at the moment are running around making plans for things they don't really know. We don't really know what's expected of us. And so I think that's the biggest problem we've got at the moment is the lack of clarity coming from government um and i do realize it's very difficult for them because uh there's the fight with the unions and so on um but for us head teachers it's very hard because we don't know what we're meant to be doing and okay can i ask you then what would it take for you to feel entirely safe to open your doors on june the 1st

uh oh well i don't know. I mean, I'm happy to do whatever the government tells me to do. It's just that I don't even know what they're telling me to do at the moment. I don't know what they want for years 10 and 12 on June the 1st. I know I have a friend who's a primary head teacher, for instance, and she was saying, well, I can't possibly just put 15 children in a class because the idea is the social distance, so you only have 15 children in. She was saying, I'm not sure I'm going to have enough staff to be able to do that. When you leave all your staff at home

who have underlying issues, it can be very difficult. Now, for a secondary, it's much easier, because you'll have more staff. For the small primary, it's near impossible. So there are just all sorts of practical considerations in a secondary you have to collapse the timetable you have to change things around all of this takes time it would be great to just have clarity and repetition any good teacher knows this you see you repeat you repeat and you'll have to be very clear if you want the class to do what you want it's the same thing with the government and i'm not sure they are giving us that clarity and and presumably that's because of the fight with the unions and so on.

Well, I mean, you say the fight with the unions, the unions are expressing genuine concerns on the part of their members about how safe the environment will be for teachers and other support staff and the pupils themselves. It's not entirely unreasonable, is it? No, no, I'm not saying it's unreasonable. I understand why the unions are saying what they're saying. But I also understand why the government is trying to get schools happening again. I don't know whether that's the correct decision because I'm not a virologist. But in terms of the pupils who are missing out, who are you most concerned about? Yeah, so the children who are in families who perhaps aren't very supportive of education don't understand the value of education perhaps have lots of siblings and are unable to keep on top of

them um those children uh won't be doing very much at school at home at all and at least when they went to school they were accessing something whereas now they won't be accessing anything so those children will definitely be falling behind and are a great concern. And so it's not just about the economy. It's also about wanting to get those children back into school learning. But at the same time, as you've said, obviously people want to feel safe. And I do understand why teachers feel uncomfortable. They're partly uncomfortable because of the lack of clarity coming from government

and also just because we don't know about how safe it is. I do think a staged approach is good. You know, if you have few year groups in, then it does make social distancing more possible. I wish that there was more talk around the idea about whether or not children can pass on COVID to adults. You know, people say, some people say that they can't, some people say that they can, I don't know. Can children pass it to each other? I just wish there was more clarity, really. Right. So if you received more news about what is happening elsewhere in Europe, in terms of the countries that have already reopened their

schools. Would you be reassured by that if we wait a couple of weeks? Yeah, if there was more discussion around that, I just feel that there's a lot of, there's just a lot of confusion. Also, I think teachers are worried about why have we chosen the youngest children to go back when they are the ones who are least likely to be able to social distance because at five years old they just don't understand what social distancing is now i suspect that has to do with uh government being concerned about secondary school kids on buses um you know if they pack the buses then that makes social distancing impossible for adults and the young adults who would be in there uh whereas children at primary tend to live very close to their schools and their parents tend to drop them off at the gate.

So I suspect that has something to do... But this isn't something that's being said. Government need to stand up and say, look, this is very hard, this is what we're trying to do, but they're not saying that. And I suppose they feel that that perhaps would present them as weak. I don't really know. Well, you're sounding pretty exasperated to be fair but but it is well I mean honestly when you said and the 10s and 12s are going back on June the 1st my heart sank and I thought are they

coming back I mean I I don't know and we don't know what to do I mean it's it's um it's really worrying from a head teacher's point of view because you need to reassure your staff. You need to figure out which staff you're going to have come in. You need to sort out your timetables. You need to sort out hand washing. You need to sort out the desks. I mean, there's so many things to think about and we don't even have a date to work towards. Right. Well, there we are. No, I think everybody will have had an idea of your exasperation. I think that's probably quite mild. Thank you. That is the view of Catherine Burblesing, who is just one headteacher,

the founder and head of the Michaela Community School in Brent in northwest London. This is the Woman's Hour Coronavirus Diary, which has been running throughout the lockdown. It's just our chance, really, to delve into the private lives

and the personal experiences of regular listeners to the programme. Anne is in Folkestone. And Anne, you're interesting for any number of reasons, not least because you are a volunteer for the Samaritans, which we'll talk about in a moment or two. But first of all, just give us an idea of your life before all this started. Well, I live in the countryside, so I'm pretty well isolated anyway. I spend my time walking my greyhounds, gardening and trying to write a novel. Also, I develop television programmes, so quite a varied life, meeting lots of different people.

And let's talk about your television programme development work, which has presumably come to a bit of a halt. I mean, I don't think there's much happening in those creative industries at the moment, is there? No, I think part of the problem is we're all struggling to figure out how to make programmes without audiences and keeping the social distancing and, you know, people who are performing and being creative. It's been a bit of a struggle. Yeah. And obviously on a practical level, it's a worry for you because, well, everyone, pretty much everyone has some financial concern at the moment, to put it mildly. Yeah, I think, you know, it all happened so suddenly. So nobody had any time to prepare. You know, finances, money coming in just dried up overnight, effectively.

You have adult children who are away from you at the moment and doing their own thing, which of course they're entitled to. Are they keeping in touch? Are you aware of how they're coping? I think they're coping pretty well. I've got a son who's about to take his final exam after four years of studying. He's doing that online. So that's a bit of a kind of letdown after such a long course. My daughter's working from home and they're both in London. So that's been a slight additional worry for me.

What have they told you about what it's like to be in London now? Well I think all the things that make London wonderful have disappeared and you know they both live in flats and they are trying to do the sort of exercise that they're expected to do, but it's very crowded. You know, the parks are busy. So I think they've been worried. Yeah, well, not surprisingly. I have to say that we happen to be in the very heart of central London at the moment. It is a slightly strange place at the moment because, as you say, everything that London had to offer is now not on offer. Folkestone, though, by the sea, does that help? I bet it does. We're actually in towards the country a bit more

so we're walking around the fields and we hardly see anyone when we're out walking the dogs so that's a great comfort. Nature has been a wonderful blessing. Everything's blooming at the moment and it's great to be outside. Yes. We're very lucky. Yeah, it's an absolutely beautiful time of year.

We are going to go on, actually, talk about gardening in a moment or two. So your work with the Samaritans, how does anybody decide that they could do that work? Because it's quite singular, isn't it? It's a tough call. It can be, but it's also remarkably rewarding. You know, you get to meet so many different people in very unusual circumstances. And I feel it's a real privilege to be able to talk to people and hear their stories at this particular crisis point in their lives.

Are people ringing up at the moment, and not just ringing, I know they can email as well, but is the lockdown featuring? I know you obviously cannot break any confidentiality, but is it featuring a lot in the sorts of conversations you're having? I'd say yes, it's adding an extra level of complexity to people's lives. So if you were already struggling or on the edge, it is an extra worry, it's an extra pressure. How hard is it actually for someone to properly tell their story on the phone? How long does it take for the average caller, if there is such a thing, to unravel? I think it varies and I think, you know,

it very much depends on people's individual circumstances. Sometimes, you know, you've been on the phone for maybe something like 40 minutes with a caller and all of a sudden they tell you why they were ringing. And it's just, you know, each person uses the service in their own way and it's for them. It's their time to talk to somebody and to use it. If they decide never to tell you what it is

that's on their mind, that's up to them. But at least you're there if they want to. Yeah, they could always ring again and finally be able to talk about it, yeah. I mean, the thing about Samaritans is that we're open when everybody else is closed. You know, we are sort of 24-7. There will always be somebody there. You might have to wait a bit, but there will be somebody on the other end of the line.

And email, how does that work? Again, we have people just answering emails as soon as they can. So you might have to wait a couple of hours. It's a different experience from being on the phone because obviously you don't get that immediate response. But some people prefer the more thoughtful written response and some people are not very good on the phone. So it's a great alternative.

Yeah, I'm sure it is because telling really personal stuff on the phone, I imagine it must be excruciating for a lot of people. I think when you're at a crisis point, all of these, well, a lot of these worries sort of fade away because you are desperate and you are, you know, you have got a particular need and that is just to connect with somebody. And that's what makes the work so amazing. Well, it is Mental Health Awareness Week, obviously, and we want to make the numbers clear. The number is, just remind everybody of the number, it's free to call, it's 24 hours a day. Oh, gosh, I should have had that ready shouldn't i well i've got it here

it's 116123 isn't it yeah and uh the the email is joe at samaritans.org that's right yes okay and the phone is free and it doesn't show up on your bill so no one will know that you phoned no i know that's a very important point to make thank you so much thank you very much ann and uh thank you for doing what you do because that is hugely important and they are there 24 hours a day seven days a week now um gardening it's something that increasingly young people are taking to because it's instagram friendly don't you know al Alice Vincent and Claire Rattanon are here to give some advice. Alice is a relatively recent convert. She has a balcony in London and

has a real-time gardening audio book called Seeds from Scratch coming out this week. Alice, good morning to you. Hello. Also with us, Claire Rattanon, who specialises in growing food organically in urban spaces. Her book is coming out later in the year. It's called How to Grow Your Dinner Without Leaving the House. Claire, good morning. Good morning. Well, it's great to have you both with us this morning. Alice, why did you only take to gardening recently?

Well, I didn't really have anywhere to do it until about six years ago when I became kind of in possession of a balcony. And it was a kind of extension of the other kind of nesting you do when you move into a new home. I just, I liked being out there and I wanted to grow things out there. It looked very bleak without any plants. And so I started to grow things. And what have you grown successfully? Well, I've moved to another balcony since then but I grew tomatoes on that old one, I grew lots of flowers, I grew, there was one particularly skint summer and I grew a lot of food to eat actually but I've now got a shadier

balcony so I grow a lot of woodland plants, foxgloves, ferns, that kind of thing. Okay Alice, pot plants, I've been having some very fulfilling conversations with my succulents lately. What would you recommend? I'd actually say to go for more of the kind of subtropical vines, things like golden pothos. They're much happier with the low light tolerance we have in our homes.

Succulents like to be in the desert and get a lot of light, which we can't really provide from most of our homes. So they end up getting a bit stretchy and weird. Stretchy and weird? What's wrong with that? Well, I mean, some people like it, but I get a lot of people getting in touch saying, oh, why is my succulent doing this? And then you find out they've shoved it in a dark corner somewhere. Is that the whole, have I overstated the whole Instagram thing? What would you say about that? Alice first. No, you've not overstated it. It is a huge thing. I mean, I have about 30,000 followers on Instagram because of plants, but it's not why I garden. And also when I do go out garden on the weekends, I tend not to actually document the process of gardening.

It's something that's innately personal. And there's a lot of grit and the pleasure of gardening is often things that just don't look good on a smartphone screen. So there is a slight distinction. But what it has done is it's allowed young people access to gardening and how you garden, information on gardening that they just wouldn't have had time or ability to access before. Yeah, and I think that's really important, Claire, isn't it?

That perhaps in the past as well, young people felt that this wasn't a world for them. That's absolutely true. It certainly is the case for me you know I found my way to growing food in the most sort of haphazard of ways. I just chanced upon an urban rooftop farm in New York and not everyone

is going to have that option and thankfully Instagram has made it possible for us to see other people's growing efforts right in front of our faces with our devices devices in our pockets and yeah and there's so much wisdom there you know and knowledge and experience it's amazing really briefly if you can if someone wants to get started today claire what would you recommend they do well that's a really good question um well growing containers is a really um it's it's it's a the easiest way to get started i would say because it doesn't

depend on you having a garden necessarily as long as you've got a sunny space um getting a container and some compost and some seeds is a is a great way to start and if you haven't got the sunniest of space seeing if you can get hold of some seedlings because there's lots of um all the garden centers are opening and and lots of them have um particularly edible plant seedlings to get going and actually lots and lots of plants that are desperate to find new homes. So, yeah, container gardening is the way, I think. Yeah, and the garden centres are open now, aren't they? We hope. Thank you very much indeed, Claire Rattanon.

And you also heard from Alice Vincent. Now, a young writer you should know about, a young Iranian writer, Golnush Noor. She has a new collection out called The Ministry of Guidance and Other Stories and really she wants to dispel the notion that Iranian women are just passive victims. That was one of my main intentions with this book because I was just so sick of this victim narrative that's prevalent in the West regarding Iranian women. It's very reductive and deeply patronizing.

And despite compulsory hijab and all the other misogynist rules in Iran, Iranian women, you know, they contribute so much to the Iranian culture. And we have many Iranian women, doctors, nurses, lawyers. I mean, my late mother was a philosophy professor, head of her department, a very formidable woman. And I cannot imagine telling her, you're a victim, you know, you're a victim and you need to be rescued and you need to be safe. She wouldn't have liked that. This is a whole world that most of us here in the West, I think, have no idea about. Was that your intention to kind a Westerner. The dominant narrative of Iran and Iranian sexuality, and especially Iranian women, is a victim narrative in the West,

and that's the only thing pretty much that exists. And as an Iranian queer woman, I was just very sick of that. But also it is deeply patronisingising and there are so many things wrong with that narrative. The world you describe is one of young people getting together, the kind of parties that might well happen here, sexual fluidity. That is all something you experienced, is it? Or is it something you've heard about? And indeed, is it all still going on in Iran? Definitely. And actually, it's getting much better because Iran is such a contingent country. So despite the queer phobic narrative that is perpetuated by the Iranian government, we have this really vibrant, beautiful underground Iranian queer community and parties.

And also Iranian sexuality and sexuality in general, I do believe it's very fluid and you cannot really box it that easily. And yeah, my own experiences. So the book is both ethnographic and auto-ethnographic. So I've lived in Iran most of my life. I lived there until I was 24. And I still go back there quite often for holidays and to visit my family. So not only did I fictionalize my own personal experiences of being an Iranian queer woman, but also I fictionalized other people's experiences that I knew of.

And I interviewed some of my friends to get their stories and to write their stories. The first story in the collection of short stories is about the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance. Now, first of all, does that exist? Is it a real thing? Yes, it does exist. And that's actually also, that's a true story that happened to me a few years ago. Well, just tell us that story. It's basically the opening story in the book. And there is this thing, if you want to get published in Iran, if you're lucky enough to find a publisher,

it then needs to go through the Ministry of Islamic Guidance and Culture. They need to approve of it before it gets published by a publisher. And that's what happened. They basically, after a year, I actually went there because I was so keen for my poetry collection to get published. Stupidly so, because in retrospect, I'm so glad that collection wasn't published because it was quite bad. Oh, so they saved you from yourself. Is that what you're saying? Not in so many words. I don't like to refer to them as saviours, but I'm glad that specific poetry collection wasn't published. Tell me then, presumably this collection of short stories could never be published in Iran. No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so.

I did have a blog in Iran, which was quite well known in the Iranian blogosphere, in which I wrote everything, but it was anonymous. Do you believe then that the religious authorities are completely unaware of these blogs, or are they quietly tolerant of their existence? What do you think? I don't think they care, actually. To ask what might perhaps be an ignorant question, but why don't they care?

I think because as long as you don't organise a rally, at the end of the day, it's about power. So if you keep it quiet and if you're not a political person with, you know, political with capital P and you're middle class, you're, you know, you're kind of fine. You get by unless you get really unlucky. You know, they have their own concerns. And I don't think they think actually a lot about sexuality and the fluidity of sexuality and the beauty of exploring one's sexuality. Well, can I ask you a class question, really?

Is sexual fluidity easier in Iran for the middle and upper middle classes than it must be, than for the poor and the destitute? I mean, just as the same would be true, actually, of Britain. Exactly. And of everywhere else in the world, you know, it's all intersectional. So if you're middle class or upper middle class, you're much safer in general in your life. It's just easier. Life is easier for you. And that includes your sexuality.

It's a privilege to be able to explore and to think about your sexuality and to read queer theory and all this stuff. So because so many people are starving, I don't think it's very, yeah, of course, it's not that easy for them to actually think about it or to have a meaningful conversation about it. We should say that some of your stories are set in London. And well, tell me what you think, because I sensed a bit of ambivalence, to put it mildly, about what you thought about living here. In terms of sexual politics, it's in an OK place compared to so many other places in the world. At the same time, it still has a long way to go. But that's not just the UK. But I do also think compared to the rest of Europe, it's still quite conservative in terms of gender politics.

Just give me an example of how Britain is behind in your opinion. So, for instance, if you go to Berlin or Helsinki, sometimes you can't even decipher the so-called gender of people and people are just much more open about their sexuality. And you see so many, you know, gay couples, you know, they're just holding hands and they just seem so free and easy. And also you can't sometimes decipher the gender of a person by just looking at them because those gender constructs, they're much more pale. They don't, they're not that divisive. So that has been my experience. I mean, I think it's getting better everywhere. I'm hopeful. And I think it's important to remain hopeful. The interesting voice of Golnoj Noor, an Iranian writer, her short stories are published in a book

called The Ministry of Guidance and Other Stories. So a window on her world there. Just to be clear about the email address for the Samaritans, it is joe at samaritans.org. And Joe is spelt J-O. So to make that clear, J-O at samaritans.org, if you need it. Now, to your thoughts on today's programme, and one person more than any other has attracted your interest. You won't be surprised to hear that is the headteacher, Catherine Burblesingh, who is somebody who speaks for herself and has her own opinions.

And today, it has to be said, didn't go down all that well with some of you listening. From Susan, I was shocked by the headmistress you had on the programme today. She sums up what I believe to be public sector attitudes in terms of a total inability to organise or take responsibility

for anything. She was just waiting for instructions. Has she never tried to be innovative or proactive? I'm sure she wants to do the best she can, but for a head teacher to be so passive and lost doesn't bode well for the teaching profession. Another listener says, as a former early years teacher and a grandma to five and three-year-old boys, I simply want to say loudly and clearly, never mind the practicalities, it isn't right to socially distance four and five-year-olds. Contrary to some political opinion, it could actually harm their development. If you can't allow young children to be close to their peers and significant adults, then you cannot do school.

Just saying, says that listener. From Jackie, please, please, could the teachers ask the parents what they would like about the return to school at this stage? Each child is different, and the confusion is a very, very bad thing for younger children. They need a sense of direction and only a parent can give this. Why not make it clear that in September schools will reopen as usual and just go from there? Also, can we mention, says this listener Penny, that lots of teachers have quietly worked throughout the crisis there are hundreds of them focus on them they have not demanded total safety your

program just gives voices to the moaners and groaners there's no perfect answer to all this we need to see teachers pulling together like medical staff. And thank you for those emails. Then there were the people who didn't like what Catherine Burblesing had to say specifically about some of the parents that she talked about at her school. This from a listener, don't need to mention her name. I could not believe how that head spoke about the parents from her school.

Will she still have a job after this interview? If I was a parent from the school, I'd be very annoyed and I am a retired teacher. And from a listener called Mary, the head teacher you spoke to today, I thought she was outrageous. What a flippant tone, how patronising in her characterisation of her school community. She didn't seem to have any respect for them at all. I don't believe she's a good representative of teachers in general. Well, that's the view of a listener called Mary. We should say that we invited Catherine onto the programme to give her opinion.

And she is, I should say, the head of an outstanding rated Ofsted school. Her school, the Michaela Community School in Brent, was rated outstanding by Ofsted in 2017. So I agree that she was certainly opinionated, but she was expressing her own opinions. And that's why we invited her on the programme to do exactly that. Now, to those of you who wanted to talk about maternity leave and the possibility of extending it. I appreciate, says this listener, that new parents may want extra maternity leave and the possibility of extending it. I appreciate, says this listener, that new parents may want extra maternity leave. This is really not, though, the most pressing need for our country. We're heading for a deep recession, if not depression, and millions of people have

lost their jobs. New parents are spending time with their babies. Marvellous. This is a wonderful thing, and I hope they're enjoying it. But it's the time and the bonding that is crucial, not money. Parents are eligible for leave and pay and can nominate when they return. Your interviewee said parents were missing out. Well, I'm sure they are and I'm sorry about it, but everyone is missing out on something. Their material circumstances haven't been affected, unlike millions of others who are really struggling, and increasing pay will not make any difference to these issues. Surely the right to work from home, time to visit nurseries and make arrangements is more important. Well, yeah, but to

that, listen, that was the point that James was making, that actually it's really difficult at the moment to do, for example, relatively simple things from the past, like assessing a nursery. You might want to entrust your child to when you go back to work. This from another listener, in response to your feature about extending maternity leave, how about consideration to all the lockdown family members struggling to care for increasingly frail members of the family who need placements into residential care. Do they have access to viewing potential care homes? Are these employees going to insist upon the same treatment? Surely their needs are equally important and their situations

are just as challenging. Another listener says I became a grandmother in January to two beautiful granddaughters. Both mothers, my daughter and my daughter-in-law have had to grieve the loss of their maternity leave they feel that they and their babies have missed out on baby yoga and swimming classes and all the socializing with the NCT groups and just mixing with other people face to face their babies are actually now scared when they see real humans appearing at them and speaking to them as they are used to just screen time contact. That's a real shame, isn't it, when you think about that and about that difference. And here's something that I think actually, oh, I just need to correct the breastfeeding. Well, no, I would say correct. This is simply another opinion from a listener called Ella.

Breastfeeding support does not involve manipulating nipples. And I thought it was unbelievable that Cheryl from the Health Visiting Institute colluded with Jane on this. I don't usually swear at women, sir. Well, I should hope not. But for heaven's sake, you are supposed to be reassuring women during COVID. I'm an NHS feeding specialist midwife of over 20 years experience, and I've never manipulated a nipple

sorry just reading that out just sometimes it does seem strange um okay um I I believe that you have never personally done it but I cannot be the only woman who does remember having her nipples manipulated and by the, I welcomed the intervention. It was helpful. I know what a nipple is, Anna. Okay, all right. So I'm now involved in a powerful conversation with Anna, who's the producer today,

and she's probably telling me the right thing, which is that I meant breasts being manipulated rather than nipples. But I don't know. I'm sure it was... Anyway, look, whatever. My concern would be for those people who are wrestling with breastfeeding at this time and are missing out on practical help in whatever form it used to come. And I think this is important from a listener. Don't need to mention her name.

She says, how are people coping at the moment with nowhere to go to the loo, public lo loos, supermarkets, pubs, libraries, cafes, etc. Just not open. And they did provide important places to go. How are those of us who love to walk coping? I now have to limit how long I can be out. I'd love to know how people with bladder problems are coping and how you manage children. Right, well, I think you've given us an idea.

So why don't we investigate exactly that? Because I know that it is hugely important, obviously. And Dear Jane says, Deidre, gardening has saved my sanity. I hate to think how I would have coped in deep and darkest winter. That's from a listener called Deidre.

Thank you for that, Deidre. And yes, I think it must, those of us who've got some sort of outside space at the moment we are so fortunate i am a hopeless gardener but just i actually took some roses from my garden yesterday and put them in a vase and um i mean i don't know how i've grown them but somehow i i have and they're just lovely and they're pink and they've got a gorgeous scent and they've given me real pleasure. So I think it is something that we all need to be grateful for at the moment if we have the opportunity to get out

into a bit of space outside our homes. Thank you to everybody who's taken part in the programme today and to Anna and to Gail and to Lois and to Jane who've been in the office today putting Women's Hour on the air. Jenny is here tomorrow. Thank you very much for listening. One of the prospective items tomorrow is quite simply

did the Black Death help women? And honestly this isn't a joke but that's one of the possible items for tomorrow. So I'll certainly be listening and hoping to learn from that. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.