Woman's Hour - Sian Clifford, Caring for a person with dementia during lockdown

Episode Date: April 13, 2020

A new ITV drama, Quiz, explores the Who Wants to be a Millionaire? coughing scandal of 2001. Charles Ingram, a former British Army major, his wife Diana and another contestant were found guilt of conspiring to cheat the show to win the top prize. Diana is played by Sian Clifford, who is best known for playing Phoebe Waller Bridge's TV sister Claire in Fleabag.Caring for your partner, your parent, your friend with dementia one on one can be challenging at any time but how are people coping isolated in lockdown? What are the extra pressures they face? We speak to Liz Brookes, former nurse. She lives outside of Manchester with her husband Mike, who has had vascular dementia for nine years now.EastEnders and Coronation Street are celebrating anniversaries this year. Then there's Emmerdale, Hollyoaks, Rivercity, Doctors, not forgetting Holby, Casualty and all the Australian ones. Whatever's going on in real life, soap operas reflect it. So what is their appeal and how are they faring during lockdown? Comedians and real life couple Catherine Bohart and Sarah Keyworth discuss their weekly podcast You'll Do: Why we stick with the people we love, examining the real un-romanticised version of relationships.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Sian Clifford Interviewed guest: Liz Brookes Interviewed guest: Sally Ann Matthews Interviewed guest: Kelly Bright Interviewed guest: Prof Christine Geraghty Interviewed guest: Catherine Bohart Interviewed guest: Sarah Keyworth Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. A very good morning to you. Welcome to the Bank Holiday Edition. We're live from Broadcasting House and you can contact us at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter and Instagram. A warm welcome to you if you're a regular listener

or if you're just in lockdown with someone who's forcing you to engage with Woman's Hour this morning. You never know, you might like it. On the programme today, we're talking about what it's like to care for a partner with dementia during the lockdown. We'll also investigate a new podcast called You'll Do. That's all about relationships. We'll talk about the importance of TV soap operas as well today. And first up, the actress Sian Clifford, who is starring in a new

ITV drama tonight at nine o'clock. She plays Diana Ingram, the wife of the British Army Major Charles Ingram, the so-called coughing major. The drama is called Quiz. It's going to be on tonight and then tomorrow night and on Wednesday night as well. And it's about the who wants to be a millionaire cheating scandal. Sian, good morning to you. How are you? Hello, I'm well, thank you. How are you doing? I'm not too bad. Does lockdown suit you? Are you OK with it? It's up and down, I think, for everyone.

And we're all facing a myriad of different challenges. So I'm feeling I'm cultivating a lot of gratitude um for having everything that i need and um and my home and my loved ones and things like that it it sort of has brought everything into sharp focus so yeah i feel um i've definitely felt in the last couple of days a sort of strong sense of acceptance so just um leaning into that and taking it a day at a time. Okay you're leaning in and getting on with it. Tell me about Quiz then because it's a story that I thought I knew until I actually watched your show and now I'm not so certain so just set it up for us. So yes Who Wants to Be a Millionaire was the biggest game show of its time. It was the first game show to ever give away such a huge amount of prize money.

And it gripped the nation. And if you were around at that time, it was hard to avoid. And it was appointment television. You know, you showed up to watch it. And some people got a little more obsessed than others. And the Ingrams, or Diana Ingram certainly, was someone who got embroiled in that and loved quizzes, as lots of us do, and ended up going on the show.

And so she went on the show and her brother went on the show and eventually Charles went on the show. He got to the million and they were then accused of cheating. Yes. Using a coughing accomplice to cough on the show he got to the million and they were then accused of cheating yes using uh using a coughing accomplice to cough on the right answers and it went to trial they were convicted of a very long-winded um sentence that is something to do with deception and they didn't go to jail but at no point has their side of the story ever been told and uh and we're about to blow the story wide open yes and in fact i read in one of the papers over the weekend that they are now um well there are reports that they are planning to appeal against their sentence so

we'll see what happens um what i didn't appreciate was this and it is a strange world forgive me we all have hobbies but the world of the obsessive quizzer, it's quite a challenging environment for those of us who aren't inside it. Tell me more about that. Yeah, that was totally new to me and really fascinating. And I think it's a brilliantly eccentric aspect of the show that's very funny. And there are lots of lighthearted moments in amongst this drama that I really love but yeah the the syndicate as as they are referred to in our show

are a group of a group of quiz nerds essentially and I don't think they exist in that form anymore but you will often see the same people popping up on daytime television quizzes and there are people who are real experts at this and and just have vast general knowledge I am not one of them no okay it was a real shame because I was going to fling a few absurd general knowledge questions at you oh god no don't worry it's not it's not going to happen um you have um when when you're discussed um as a as an actress you often referred to, or the characters you play are often referred to as brittle, which often seems to me as a peculiar sort of British characteristic. What do you make of that? Because it's often applied to middle with us having the power of our voices or not and having to repress a lot of what we're feeling and thinking and not being allowed to express ourselves maybe.

Yeah, I do seem to play a lot of characters like that and I'm opposite to those people, I have to say. I'm always the one who's speaking up. But I don't know. I love those kind of characters. I do think Claire and Diana are sort of worlds away from one another. Well, you've slipped in now a reference to the show I was going to mention subtly at some point during the conversation, but didn't think I'd do the slam dunk right at the start. You are, of course, Claire in Fleabag,

playing opposite Phoebe Waller-Bridge. And Claire and the relationship with her sister, it's one of those things, you have a sister. Have you got one sister or two sisters? One sister. OK, I've got a sister. Your relationship with the Phoebe Waller-Bridge character is as close as you'll ever get to a really accurate depiction of sisters, would you say?

Oh, 100 percent. I mean, I hope it obviously paves the way for more, you know, parts like that and storytelling like that because I loved being a part of it, but I love watching it because I've never kind of seen that sort of fractious push and pull of sisterhood represented before. And yeah, it was a joy to kind of bring that to the world

and see how far and wide it resonated. I mean, it was astonishing. All those ways that you can get at each other, but also so many nods to the quite ferocious loyalty which is also a really important factor yeah it's huge and I think um we've all had moments in our lives where no matter what um ruptures are going on within a relationship in a and I'm talking about a female friendship or a sisterhood when the chips are down you will show up for that person.

It's just something innate in us to reach out to one another no matter what else is going on. And you really see that with Claire and Fleabag in the first episode of series two, which I won't spoil for people that haven't seen it. No, but I think a lot of people will know that it features, again, something that's unusual in anything like comedy, which is a miscarriage and the impact that has on the characters.

Do you think that will have changed? I think it actually, I don't think it is an exaggeration to say it will have changed hearts and minds on that subject because it's not often featuring in drama, never mind comedy. No, I don't think it's a topic that's widely discussed at all which is disproportionate to how common it is um in in women who fall pregnant and uh yeah phoebe you know never sets out with an agenda she just writes what she knows and uh this was obviously based on um a story, a true story of an incident where a friend of hers had a miscarriage during a business lunch meeting and just went back to it.

And the response online was just astonishing, really. And the conversation that it sparked and continues to spark is amazing. And I really do hope it you know has contributed to that and and makes changes yeah I mean it is it's a truly devastating moment of television but also there are some really comic moments in that program as well um so here you are um in the same position as the rest of us not able to work not able to do anything has it meant for you that projects that you were really looking forward to have just been put on hold? What's happening? Yeah, things have just been postponed.

And obviously with my industry, it's very it's just up in the air. So I really don't know. I don't know what it really depends when when the lockdowns lifted and even once the lockdowns lifted, what that means, you know, terms of travel or uh things like that you know I was supposed to go to New York to promote quiz um right before this all happened and Matthew and I were looking forward to that but it didn't happen and and that's fine of course I mean um no uh yeah no problem with that whatsoever I'm more than than happy to stay at home and keep people safe. But yeah, I don't know. It's open-ended at the moment. Yeah, and I just want to briefly, how are you with not knowing?

I think the fact that there's no obvious end in sight for me is quite a struggle, but you're okay with that? Well, I don't know that I'm okay with it, but I'm certainly, I'm just trying to be really, really patient with myself and really just take the time to listen to what's going on and speak to my friends and my family regularly and make sure they're all OK. And and to really, you know, ask people how they're feeling. And I'm finding that people are being so much more honest and courageous about that. And the connection that I'm experiencing with my friends is really amazing. And just encouraging people to talk about their mental health, actually, I think is something really powerful that's coming from this.

Yeah. So if somebody tells you they're feeling rotten, let them be and just listen to them for a moment or two. Yeah. And ask them about it let you know work through it with them rather than i think often with um our feelings on the darker side of the spectrum will sort of say oh don't feel like that but i i think it's okay i think that's what helps you know feelings to transition through you is is to feel them sean lovely to talk to you thank you very much thank you thank you thank you um's Sian Clifford and she's one of the stars. She plays Diana Ingram in The Quiz, which is on ITV tonight at nine o'clock. And I've seen it and I can highly recommend it.

And by the way, if you think you saw that coughing major episode of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? You didn't because it was never actually shown on ITV, which is one of the things I didn't know. Now, some of our listeners are coping better with lockdown than others. I've just been in the Women's Hour email inbox, and one lady just wanted to point out that she was actually enjoying herself hugely and had cleared out the freezer over the weekend, and the oldest thing she found was 12 years old. If you can beat that, at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram.

If you're a carer, you will probably, well, again, I can't be certain, I'm guessing, you will have found the last couple of weeks challenging. But let's find out, because we're about to speak to two people who are caring for their partners. Liz Brooks is 64. She's looking after her husband, Mike, who is 77 and has had vascular dementia for nine years.

They live near Rochdale. Mike is an ex-RAF person. Chris Black is also going to talk to us. He's in his mid-50s. He's caring for his wife, Helen, who is just 50 and has Pick's disease. And they live in Hornchurch in Essex. And Helen was a graphic designer. Liz, first of all, good morning to you.

How are you doing today? Hi, Liz. Having trouble with Liz. So let's see if we can talk to Chris. Chris, can you hear me? Good morning. Good morning, Jane. Tell us a little bit about Helen and about your life together before all this started. Well, we've been together for just over 30 years, and Helen was very creative, very much a people's person. She worked in graphic design and art, and then later in life became an art director, working in fashion. So a very outgoing person, very communicative, a life and soul of a party and she just loved her work, she

just loved what she did and that was giving joy to other people. And you I know are enjoying caring for her now and I know that you've, perhaps some people might find that odd, but you're saying you're finding it easier without the outside carers coming in, can you explain more? Absolutely. We've been in this situation for just two or three years now, so all of this is quite new, and I'm quite nervous talking to you about it because it's quite an emotional situation. But we've been very fortunate

in that we've had various carers come in to help me to look after Helen, so that's bathing her and feeding her and nappy changes etc however when the coronavirus started to become more prevalent I took a decision to care for Helen on my own because it was very very important to me to ensure that because Helen's extreme risk vulnerable to the disease I couldn't bear thinking that she would be ill and on her own so I'm caring for her on my own and I'm actually really really enjoying it and I find that spending every minute of every day with her is actually a blessing and you can tell I'm quite emotional of course but yeah I'm really enjoying

being with her keeping her safe I hold her hand we sing nursery rhymes, we watch TV together, and it's probably quite a weird thing to understand, but I feel closer to her now than I did before. And what about your neighbours and the community? Have they noticed you? Absolutely. Before, I felt totally isolated. Although I had carers coming in, the world was just going by day by day

without realising the situation we were in so as I speak to you now I'm in a converted lounge upstairs, I'm overlooking the park we've created a really safe and comfortable environment for Helen

and one of the neighbours set up a Facebook group and we're all talking with each other. Neighbours send me messages, I'm just popping to the shops, do you need anything? And there's a real community spirit and now I feel strangely less isolated than I did before. And if I may just tell a a very very quick story uh i posted that we ran out of porridge because helen loves the porridge and fruit in the morning and um one neighbor said well i've got a couple of sachets i'll drop them by and she left them in the porch and then another neighbor said look i'm popping to the shops tomorrow so i'll buy your box and that was

fantastic however before i could um return the messages on Facebook to say, yep, we're OK now, I had five boxes of porridge in my porch. Right. From neighbours. So we're sorted on the breakfast run. Right. That sounds fantastic. Real positivity when I perhaps naively on my part wouldn't necessarily have guessed that would be the way that conversation went. Stay with us, Chris. Liz, I know you can hear me now um tell me a bit about mike uh he's a former ref pilot he flew in balkans back in the

cold war days although he never actually flew one in angus thank goodness um he then came out of forces ran his own business in laboratory consumables. And then he's done other jobs as well. And his last job before he finally retired was driving trucks, which he absolutely loved. He said it was like flying. Yes, well, I can imagine. Well, that gives us a really full picture of him, Mike the man. But he's had vascular dementia for, well, the best part of a decade. Yes.

You're now, are you completely on your own with him or do you have carers coming in? No, we don't have carers coming in and never have. He's relatively well. He's still able to look after himself. So with a bit of prompting, he will be mostly self-caring he struggles now with making a cup of tea or coffee and needs a bit more support with that now

stayed up cooking some time ago thank goodness, I'm much happier being the cook so yeah we're pretty lucky in that his vasculature dementia has progressed fairly slowly over the years. And he's been able to maintain a lot of his sociability and external interest until now. Yes, you did have you had an active social life life in fact, didn't you, before the lockdown?

Very busy. Yeah. So at some level, the lockdown now, we're having a bit of a rest, which is nice, but it's endless. Yes, endless in what way? Tell me more about that. Well, it's not a holiday.

No. It has no end. And although you can plan for a holiday we did have a holiday planned for may that's not going to happen and you can look forward to it this was hoisted upon us it was not of our wishing um and everything changed in a heartbeat. So there was no capacity, there was no possibility of preparing Mike for this. Does, how much, without being patronising, how much of what is going on does Mike understand? He's finding it difficult to process the information.

He's been an avid watcher of the news ever since I've known him, and he would watch News 24, 7, but I've had to stop it because while he wasn't processing a lot of the information, he was picking up on the emotion. And suddenly on one particular morning, I woke him up to find him, he was in floods of tears and he couldn't explain why.

No. It was very clear that the impact of what's going on in the wider world was really very, very painfully felt by him. And the impact on you, do you feel anger at times? Yes. And I'll rail at the television because I feel like I'm forming this. I saw this coming. I planned for our lockdown.

I knew we would be in this position. And in fact, we went into self-isolation at the beginning of March because I felt that I wanted to be safe in our home before the community, the transmission was widespread. And I'm glad I wanted to be safe in our home before the community, the transmission was widespread, and I'm glad I did it. Who are you angry with or at?

You really want to get into a political discussion. I'm cross because I felt that the government did it in late February, early March, and could have acted much sooner, should have acted much sooner, to address the issues of transmission and supply of PPI. Yes. Liz, there'll be plenty of people listening who agree with you, and of course I'm honour bound to point out that there'll be many others who believe the government is doing as well as they possibly can in pretty difficult to put it mildly

circumstances but no you're absolutely you're listen you're there you're doing this you're entitled and you're an ex-nurse you're entitled to your opinion. Chris said he felt noticed by his local community perhaps more than in the past are you you getting help? Yes, I've been inundated with offers of help. A neighbour turned up at our door a couple of days ago with a load of rhubarb, which was wonderful. Unfortunately, I have a triffid in my back garden.

I usually give rhubarb to other people. It was a lovely thought and I very much appreciated it. Yes, who wouldn't want a gift of rhubarb? As it happened, you already had your own, but they weren't to know, were they? Liz, thank you very much and thank you for being so honest. And Chris, what does the rest of the day hold for you and for Helen?

I'm looking out to sunshine. We have a park that backs onto our house, so we'll go for a very careful uh five ten minute stroll um keeping our distances from everyone um because it's very important that we aren't stuck in one box and one room all day long so some fresh air and some uh sun is great um and then maybe having a bit of dance and boogie, watching some music videos, which Helen absolutely loves. And despite the fact that she can't communicate or talk,

she loves music from the 80s and will be up dancing and often she'll be mouthing the lyrics. So we'll look forward to that. And Chris, it's difficult and I don't want to put words into your mouth. Liz says she does get angry. You sound like you're, well, you've already said you are enjoying this phase of your life. Do you never, ever get cross? Yes, I do.

Last year was particularly difficult when Helen's behaviour, because she's totally disinhibited about her actions, she can't control her actions. Part of the PICS disease is that she spits. It's like Tourette's, she can't control it, so they're spitting. She would try and escape. She's put a knife to my chest. She would try and escape from the car if we were driving to an appointment.

But thankfully now her condition, because unfortunately it has advanced, but she's more relaxed now. So yes, I do get angry, but much less now. I'm in a much calmer and more positive place now than we were last year. Chris, thank you very much for the work you do and for talking to us and same to you Liz as well and to all the other carers listening now and I just want to briefly read a paragraph of one email that we had over the weekend from another carer, she wants to be

anonymous, she says, hanging on to your sanity is paramount but sometimes the lid blows off the kettle I lost the call, my cool, this morning when my husband, who has Parkinson's, managed to get a nappy sodden in the shower while I'd snatched a few minutes in the garden with my coffee. When I came in I found he'd ripped it apart and the contents had swollen up and his solution was to flush it down the loo. I got there just in time, got the plastic gloves and retrieved most of it from the loo, which would have blocked solid, of course.

Much of it was all over the floor as well. Of course I shouted at him. It's the last thing you should do to a person with Parkinson's. But what I needed was to scream at somebody or at least tell somebody about it. But who would you tell? Not your children, who've got more than enough to cope with at the moment, and not your friends. So I'm telling Woman's Hour. Well, to that

listener um i know your name and i hope you're listening and thank you and i hope just telling us made you feel a little calmer but there are some real challenges out there at the moment aren't there if you want to add your voice to this um we'd welcome obviously any experience or any thought on anything you've heard on the program so far, you can email the programme via the website. Now, last week I was in a moment of madness, dismissive of sourdough bread. And to make up for that, I'll be talking about sourdough bread on Woman's Hour on Friday as my penance. This year, two of our most popular TV soaps are celebrating an anniversary.

EastEnders is 35, Coronation Street is 60, incredibly. Now, everyone at some point, surely, in their life has needed a soap opera, has wanted a soap in their life. And these shows are really vital. They highlight social problems, changing attitudes. They bring about change

and, of course, there's companionship and pure escapism. We've got some real soap royalty with us today. Sally-Anne Matthews, who plays Jenny Connor, who's only the landlady in The Rover's Return in the Street. Sally-Anne, good morning to you. Good morning. Brilliant to have you on.

And Natalie Cassidy plays Sonia in EastEnders. Natalie, welcome to you. Good to speak to you. How are you? Good morning, Jane. Good morning. All good, thank you. Great. And Professor Christine Geraghty is a professor of film and television studies at the University of Glasgow. She's written about women and soap operas. So, Sally-Anne, learning that you were now the Rover's landlady really did make me wonder what's happened to my life. Because I remember when you were just a slip of a thing and Rita took you in. Exactly.

What's happened? Way back in 1985, I was there in 1985 to 91 and briefly returned in 93. Then I had a 22-year gap and came back to the show in 2015. So to have done that circle of work I feel incredibly fortunate there aren't many jobs that you can revisit 22 years later and technology hasn't moved it on or you know you're still able to um fulfill the same role that you did when you were a child yes well no it's absolutely remarkable but you as a soap actor do you you really, because you're inside the business, understand the importance of soap operas in the lives of the viewers? Well, I do not only as an actress, but as a viewer. I mean, I'm an avid TV viewer anyway, and I love my soaps, always have done.

And I think women in soaps, when I started in 85, there weren't very many female-centric dramas. If you think of Prime Suspect, that I think was, I don't know, 87, 88, around that time, it was very much sold as a woman in a man's world. And soap operas have always been actually the reverse. We've had so many, it is female centric and you've got every different kind of female in there with different educational, vocational, social backgrounds that all just happen for whatever circumstances, live on the same street or in the same square or the same clothes. And we see the many different facets of women in a soap and they have a much louder voice. Thankfully, you know, television has changed

and we do have more female-centric dramas now, but I think soaps really paved the way for that. Well, you weren't, Natalie, you were just 10 when you first appeared in Albert Square. Yeah, that's right. You can't really have understood the importance of that show or any other show at that age, surely? No, not really. I went to Anishah Drama School and I auditioned and

I got the part. And as a 10 year old, it was just exciting to be out of school doing something, you know. But, you know, as you grow up, you do realise the importance, just like Sally just said, of women in soap. And you look at the issues that we cover um and you know i grew up with neighbors for instance um and charlene kylie monogue you know in a mechanic mechanics thinking wow that's different she's strong um and those things you know they resonate and they stay with you you know going on to bet in a leopard print you know i was a an avid viewer of cory growing up with my mum and dad. And look at Jack and Vera, you know, Vera being the, you know, the boss of that pairing.

So, yeah, I think women in soap is extremely important. And I feel proud to be a part of it, really. I've just got to mention Jean Alexander when she was Hilda Ogden and Stan died. I'm still getting over that now. It's a very iconic scene when she takes Stan's glasses. But Jean was a wonderful actress. Oh, no, she was an incredible, because she was a very posh lady, lived in Southport.

I always remember that. Yeah, very posh indeed. So, Christine, what defines a soap from an academic perspective? Well, also as a fan, I have to say. I think one key thing is that soaps are day-to-day stories. So the people in the soap world live their lives in parallel with our world. And so they start in the mornings and the episode often ends in the evenings. And there's gaps between, they aren't all based on cliffhangers and what have you so i think that sense of day-to-dayness is really important and then i would absolutely

agree about the emphasis on women characters on diversity of women characters we have sisters in soaps we have mothers daughters wives friends some women, they're strong women in soaps, but they're also vulnerable women. You know, so I think it's that whole sense of a world where the female point of view is really understood and is important that defines a soap. Do you think that soaps are or should convey public service messages I'm thinking particularly obviously about the coronavirus Christine at the moment we know that I think in parts of Africa soap operas are indeed doing that but would there be a part for that sort of thing here now? Well I think the makers of soaps are always keen to say that stories come out of characters but I think it's also the case that soaps do reflect the world in which we

live and indeed help to shape understandings so if you think for instance about attitudes to lesbian and gay people I think soaps have been an important part of changing attitudes in that respect I think stories of domestic abuse have been extraordinarily important in soaps, about mental illness, mental health. I think soaps have been a way of opening up discussions about those things. So I think it is actually a bit odd at the moment, although in some ways it's a blessed relief, that the soaps can't reflect the coronavirus situation. And it would be very interesting to see what happens when they do. Well, I think, sorry to interrupt, but I just want to bring in Natalie here, because Natalie, we know there is a domestic violence storyline running in EastEnders, and there has been for a

while. And of course, we do know that one, unfortunately, one of the side effects of the lockdown is, well, an increase in domestic violence. Well, absolutely. And as Christine said, I think it will be very, very interesting to see what the bosses and the execs decide to do because, you know, it's a very sensitive subject. And will we go back and take a look, maybe do a flashback week of, you know, what happened in lockdown maybe on the square or something? But, you know, I'm not sure and it's up to the bosses,

but me, it's interesting because there's my character is the head of a geriatric ward well yes well for general she's a nurse so yeah it would be very interesting to to see if they explore that so actually to be honest it would be odd if it didn't explore it but I guess there are all kinds of we've got to be practical about this there are all kinds of logistical problems yeah absolutely and also you know when this is over and when we are back to work maybe people just want to escape from what we've been listening to every day who knows sally and what do you think about that well i think that's the joy of soaps that we have a chameleon-like quality that we're able to

provide escapism and but yet we are also able to cover important social issues and get information across. I think with the current state that the world is in, the coronavirus is a rapidly changing and developing situation and obviously SOAPs, we work on a six, eight-week record to transmission time. So you run the risk of having some information that then is out of date by the time it's transmitted. So I don't quite know how they'll cover this.

And maybe like Natalie said, it would be revisited long after this pandemic has gone and we're all back to a more normal state of events. Christine, what do you think was the single, looking back over the 55 years I've been watching telly, what's been the single biggest change in soap operas and in women's depiction in soap operas? Now, I thought we thought we might have lost one contributor

and it turned out to be the one I was going to ping a question at. Oh, she's back. Go on, Christine. Oh, no, she definitely had gone um let's go on let's talk to natalie and sally ann again actually natalie who was the first woman you mentioned bet lynch who else did you identify with charlene who else charlene it was a really interesting one when you when i knew i was going to do this program you know and i thought let me look back into you know my mind and soap and charene was a big one because actually watching Neighbours every night at 5.35 eating my dinner you know it was a very lovely memory for me I lost my mum at

19 so those memories are very important to me. She would watch it with you would she? Yeah she'd be cooking and Neighbours would be on and so on and I think looking at a young girl with a working in a mechanics you know in probably about 1988 you know it was quite a strange thing to see saying oh look that girl's working in a man's job that's quite interesting you know yeah I know that you go on no no I just think it's a very powerful thing you know to have that memory what about you Sally Ann because there were some formidable uh rovers return landladies I mean there's a long tradition of these incredible characters. And I have to say...

And thanks, no pressure. No pressure at all on you, Sally-Anne. But you have, I mean, your backstory in the street, I mean, it's pretty ropey. Some of your romantic tussles have been quite extraordinary. Yeah, she's not led a quiet life by any means. But I think for Jenny, the one constant that she's had through her life is Rita. And I think for the audience, for Barbara Knox, who is now 86.

Yes, how incredible. I mean, amazing. And Bill Rotey's 87. And to have people of that age working so brilliantly. And for an audience to watch somebody grow and develop, and that's the joy of soaps, I think, particularly ones that have got longevity, that you see, we saw Natalie as a 10-year-old and we see her now,

and the audience grows up with you as you grow up. I remember watching Letitia Dean and just thinking she was the most glamorous thing I'd ever seen. Well, she was. By the way, she still is. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's the joy of soaps. But for me, as my first kind of iconic soap woman,

has got to be Joan Collins. I love a soap bitch. I put that word on radio before. Well, you've said it now, Sally-Anne. I love a soap bitch. I'm ready for. Well, you've said it now, Sally. I have to fill in a form. You do realise that? Why not? But Alexis Carrington in Dynasty, she was just incredible. And I think that's, you know, you always have that kind of character. You have villain you have the the the downtrodden comedic you have the perpetual heartbroken girl as christine was saying we have all these many facets of women that we're able to show on a soap and you don't get that in any other television medium well you've

both been great and fantastic um examples of soap fortitude as you've both been great and fantastic examples of soap fortitude. You've both had many a challenge. Sally-Ann, good to talk to you. And Natalie, love to chat to you too. And we lost her, but she was brilliant. Professor Christine Geraghty of the University of Glasgow. Thank you all. Thank you very much.

And of course, thank you both. Take care. And Ambridge yet to go under the coronavirus cosh, but I suspect it will at some point. We're told May is when Ambridge will get real, if you like. Old items in cupboards and freezers. John says on Twitter, clearing a cupboard, found a jar of pears pickled in brandy syrup 30 years ago. Rusted lid, needed a pipe wrench to get the lid off. He claims they were delicious.

I am not encouraging you to eat old pears in brandy out of a jar with a rusty lid. There is a very good new podcast out on Guess Where? BBC Sounds and it features real-life couple and comedians Catherine Bohart and Sarah Keyworth. It is called You'll Do. And Catherine, Sarah, good morning to you both. How are you? Good morning. How are you?

Very well, thank you. Lovely to chat to you. Now, this is a podcast. Well, is it an unromantic view of relationships or just a real view of relationships? Sarah, what would you say? I would definitely say that it's real. I think I don't think you could necessarily call it on romantic we're not trying to present the sort of slightly false glossy Instagrammable but we are trying to give people an impression of what it actually means to live with somebody and spend a life with somebody and sometimes that can be romantic but not necessarily in the way that you might expect okay i mean the title of the podcast you'll do is a bit it's a bit of a giveaway katherine whose idea was that um well actually it was lightly inspired by the tim

minchin song but also we were speaking to friends we were quite drunk at a dinner party and we ended up asking each each couple in the room why they loved each other because we were sort of workshopping this idea for a podcast and we're terrible dinner guests. And so, but it did become that. It kind of revealed that the reasons people love each other are not necessarily the idealised version of romance that we get. And largely often love, long-term romantic love is about putting up with somebody's downsides for the benefit the overall benefits of being with

them and that might be unromantic but i think it's also quite like true of most people's lives yes i suspect you are absolutely right um sarah how did you get people, couples in fact, to take part? Why would they want to do it? That's a good question. I mean, we asked quite a lot of people and quite a few people said no. But we kind of, we pitched it to people that we know quite well. And I think that they trusted us, that we weren't going to try and sort of trick them or get like a scoop as we always tell them that we're not trying to get so I think yeah

I think people who knew us knew that we would look after them and there was no sort of although we did get some scoops in the end there were some scoops in the end but we didn't mean to we weren't trying to scoop anything out accidental scoops well out, yeah. Accidental scoops.

Well, they're the best kind. And Catherine, what is it that Sarah does with her fingernails that annoys you so much? Oh, come on. Okay, look, she's a grown woman. She turned 27 last week, but she does need me to cut her nails. And the reason being, I do not ask you to cut my nails. No, but you need me to. You do need me to.

You insist upon cut my nails. No, but you need me to. I don't need you to cut my nails. You insist upon cutting my nails. Because she hacks away at them such that they are jagged and awful both to look at and to feel. I do a quick job. Yeah. And so I do them properly when she's out of the shower and they're soft

because having short, well-cut nails as a pair of queer women, not that... Keep it clean. Yeah, just it's important. And Sarah, why do you put the bins out? Because I have the short hair. Yeah, those are the rules.

Those are the rules. Can I just say, obviously that buys into a gender binary, but also she'll do nothing else. That's not true. I do the hoovering. Okay, what else do you do other than the hoovering and the bin? I do the hoovering and do the washing up because you don't like doing the washing up. I'm just saying.

She has to have certain roles based on some nonsense or else I'd do everything. Every time I try and resist putting the bins out, Catherine will do a U-turn on everything she says about gender and say, but you're the boy. So sometimes the gender ban is useful. Yes, indeed. Well, you said it.

Very, very briefly, of all the couples you spoke to for your podcast, who struck you as the most honest and the happiest? Oh, we couldn't choose. We couldn't choose. But the one that just came out,

they're very much in love and they've been together a very long time. Oh, Cindy DeYoung and Zoe Lyons. They were amazing. Catherine Bohart, Sarah Keyworth, and they were talking about their new BBC Sounds podcast, You'll Do, which is about the wonder of contemporary relationships

and how to sustain them. Now, obviously, you're very clever and you've got the Woman's Hour podcast, so you know about that. You might also like our Cook the Perfect pod, which is just pure cookery and food and none of the other clutter of the hour of woman. So get the Cook the Perfect podcast if food is your thing or you just want some fresh ideas for the lockdown. Now, a lot of people wanted to talk about carers and it's not surprising after the very powerful contributions we had on the subject of caring today. This is from, we'll keep all these anonymous, but this listener

says, I was listening to your carers and actually listening to them reinforced the guilt I have about not looking after my husband. He has FTD, which is frontotemporal dementia. It's a horrible form of the illness. It changes somebody's personality, in my husband's case, from a pleasant and lovely man who never swore to somebody who can be very agitated and swear as if he's done it all his life. He is in hospital now, having been there to adjust his medication, but I've had to accept that I cannot look after him at home. It's in fact three weeks now since I've seen him because of the lockdown and I'm overwhelmed by the feeling of guilt that he is there

and I'm at home and I can't see him. Well to that listener, I understand why you might feel guilt but of course you can't help the situation that we are in now. It's impossible for you to see him. And I send you my very best wishes and I hope that you continue to be all right because it sounds as though you're giving yourself a hard time. Try not to. Your husband will be simply better off in hospital, isn't he? And through no fault of your own, you can't see him at the moment.

Another listener says, I'm listening with interest today as my husband who has dementia is currently still in bed listening to a bit of jazz with a large black cat in tow the latest tune wafting over the house and I'm not going to pronounce this right

but I'll do my best is Dans les Rues d'Antibes I think that's in the streets of Antibes isn't it? that'll do Antibes Antibes okay Lucinda's on the case do. Antibes. Antibes. Okay. Lucinda's on the case there. She likes a bit of pronunciation.

The listener says, so far so good, but it isn't always so. And I do resort to silent screams and weeping in the shower. I'm just praying I can continue to cope until all this is over. The fear of violence is always at the back of my mind.

Good wishes. a grateful listener. Well, again, to that listener, I can see your name. I wish I could say it because I want you to know that I have read it and we do care here and we are aware that many of you are really up against it at the moment. And anyone who thinks the job of caring is easy has quite clearly never been one. Another carer. My heart goes out to the listener who's a carer and also feels angry. We rightly thank our wonderful health workers every week. And we've talked about schools and shops and businesses and all these issues have been addressed. But characteristically, carers who look after their loved ones are largely being ignored. We're the group taken for granted despite the fact that we give huge relief

to hospitals and care homes and other community-based social care agencies. 24 hours, seven days a week can become extremely wearing even when you're looking after a person you love. And the final email on the subject of caring, a listener called John just said carers need to know that if they want to talk to somebody and there will be no judgment at all the samaritans are always available so don't forget any carer or anyone who simply wants to offload to another human being with absolutely no judgment then the samaritans are there 24 hours a day we also talked about soap operas on the programme. Penny said, don't forget the revelation it was to see Coronation Street back in the day,

where for the first time as a teenager in the North East, I could watch real people, not the posh ones we were used to in those earlier hospital dramas. I know their accents weren't the same as ours, but to see realistic characters, especially women, on our black and white tellies

made Coronation Street Night an occasion for my group of friends. That's true. That's worth reporting and yes, you're absolutely right. Don't forget says Catherine, the BBC One drama Doctors. It's just celebrated its 20th birthday. Well, forgive me, I didn't

allude to that anniversary. I should have done. It's got some very powerful stories. A homophobic attack on a lesbian couple and over the years it's dealt with tough tales including FGM and child sexual exploitation. Catherine then gives herself away ever so slightly by saying,

OK, I do work on it. So obviously I am biased. But the point is, Catherine, you were honest. OK? And that is's important so thank you uh Lucinda can you go back to Twitter please just giving her an instruction for once yes thank you she'd altered my screen strictly speaking without my permission on the subject of uh old food which I knew a few of you would have good stuff to add on this subject. Audrey says, I recently found two packets of pasta in a high cupboard.

The pasta was dated 14 years ago. I don't like pasta. I just kept it for visiting grandchildren. I offered it to my daughter, not realising how old it was, but she put it in the rubbish. Yes, I'm not surprised. In my experience, in my experience, and it's only my experience, the older generation are a little, they have a little more laissez-faire about them when it comes to old food.

I'm a bit careful, but not so much the older folk. I'm fiddling about with my computer here, so I apologise for the noise, but I just want to... Yes, I want it now. A photograph of a loaf that Jo sent. Woman's hour, expiry dates, load of nonsense, she says on Twitter. My bread, made with yeast that expired in 2009,

was totally delicious and it rose perfectly. And to prove it, she has sent a colour photograph of the loaf, which popped up during the course of the programme and made me feel absolutely starving because all I've had is some grotty muesli this morning. Thank you for that, Jo, and best wishes to your ancient yeast.

And from Harriet, I found some tinned pineapple that was best before 2002. I did put it in the compost. Good. But I did eat some baked beans, best before 2013, and I had no ill effects. Well, of course, those of you who had very ill effects will not be able to contact us anymore, will you? I do think there's a lot of slightly out of order behaviour from some of our listeners. Mike says, is this really a race to the bottom? I recently moved and found an old jar of cranberry sauce.

I almost threw it out, but I thought I'd open it first, as you do. It smelt OK, so I spread a bit like jam on some buttered bread and there was nothing wrong with it. It's not from my freezer, but it's dated February 2006. Sadly, it's not very jammy on its own. It shouts out, I need pork, chicken or turkey. Why is it we never remember these jars? Mike, you've got a point. Has any, every single self-respecting listener to this programme will have a jar of cranberry in the fridge.

Do you ever use it? No. Do you always have one? Yes. I must have, I've probably got two, in all honesty. In fact, you know what, when I get home, I'm going to check. But the prize of the day, which goes to Anonymous, so there is no prize, An as a backup for my son's 18th in case my homemade attempt failed. He will soon turn 35. Mmm, I'll have a big slice, please, Anonymous. Thanks to everybody who took part today, to Gail and to Lucinda and to Siobhan and Paula, because we're giving shout-outs to everyone who's coming in, because at the moment, most people aren't. So I'm very grateful to everyone who's involved with getting the show on the road and keeping it on air.

Thanks for listening. We are back tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.