Woman's Hour - Sian Gibson, International aid, Author Agustina Bazterrica, Shein

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

Known to many as Kayleigh in Peter Kay’s Car Share, Sian Gibson joins Kylie Pentelow to discuss her hit BBC comedy The Power of Parker which returns for a second series this week. Sian co-wrote and stars in the series as Kath, a mobile hairdresser by trade and the devoted mistress of her sister’s husband. Set around the fortunes of the Parker family’s electrical shop in 1990s Stockport, the next instalment sees a shift of power between the trio of Kath, her sister Diane and the object of their affection, Martin Parker.If you open the website for online retailer Shein, a pop-up immediately appears offering a ‘special deal’ just for you. But are these savings what they seem? Yesterday the EU told the Chinese fast-fashion website that these discounts, as well as other pressure-selling tactics on its website, infringe EU consumer law and they’ve given Shein one month to respond or face fines. Mitch Labiak, senior business journalist for the BBC, explains more.Argentinian author Agustina Bazterrica’s novel Tender is the Flesh became a worldwide sensation, with sales of over half a million copies in the English translation alone. She talks about her most recent novel, The Unworthy, which is set post-climate apocalypse in a walled sanctuary known as the Sacred Sisterhood. But is it a refuge from the disease and violence that exist outside its walls or a dangerous prison for the women who live there?Announcements of cuts to foreign aid this year from both the UK government and US government, amongst others, have left many organisations facing funding issues and putting their programmes at risk. As humanitarian crises continue across the world, including in Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan, with many vulnerable people suffering including women and girls, the need to provide aid remains as high as ever. Dr Helen Pankhurst, Senior Advisor on Gender Equality for Care International UK, and Sofia Calltrop, the UN Women Chief of Humanitarian Aid, discuss the effects of these cuts on women and girls globally and the importance of gender equality programming.Since Labour has come to power, there’s been a number of issues that have divided the party. From tax rises to whether it should be a two or three-child benefit cap, the tension has been tangible. And with accusations of briefings against female cabinet ministers, what impact is this Labour in-fighting having on women in the party? We spoke to chief political commentator for the I paper, Kitty Donaldson, and UK politics commentator for Bloomberg, Rosa Prince.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Kirsty Starkey

Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up today, we'll be talking to comedy actor Sian Gibson, who is back in a new series. Now she says she'd pretty much given up on acting and was working in a call centre when none other than comedian Peter Kay asked her to star in his hugely successful show Car Share. That changed everything for Sian. So we want to hear from you on this. What have you almost given up on but then made a success of? It could be work related, maybe also a relationship. So you can text the programme,

the number is 84844. On social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through the website or send us a WhatsApp message or voice note the number is 03 700 100 444 we're looking forward to hearing your stories of success or maybe otherwise. Also coming up how cuts to international aid are impacting projects specifically for women with almost half of global women's rights organisations expected to shut down within six months unless further funding is secured. And we speak to two political journalists who help us make sense of what's going on within the Labour Party with talk of a leadership coup and briefings against senior women. But first, if you open the website for online retailer Xi'an, a pop-up immediately appears

offering a special deal just for you. For me this morning, it was 55% off any order. But are these savings what they seem? Yesterday, the EU told the Chinese fast fashion website that these discounts, as well as other pressure selling tactics on its website infringe EU consumer law and they've given Xi in one month to respond or face fines. Well to tell us more about this, joining me in the Women's House studio is Mitch Labiak, senior business journalist for the BBC. Mitch, thanks very much for joining me this morning. So let's start with, for those who don't know, what is XIIN? Yeah, so XIIN is an enormous fast fashion retailer, sort of started out in China and

has branched out sort of around the world, as you will have pointed out, you know, available to customers in the UK, the US, all across sort of Europe as well. And yeah, it's made a name for itself by selling fast fashion for very, very cheap. So what are these tactics then that the EU is talking about here? So as you mentioned at the top of your show there, the EU has found many instances on this website which breach EU law, including these fake discounts. So pretending to offer better deals by showing price reductions that didn't really happen. So it's based on a prior price, which wasn't the actual prior price. You've got pressure

selling as well, which you mentioned. So you're just creating this rush incentive to buy as soon as possible, act now, act now. Sometimes just misleading information, so displaying either incomplete or incorrect information about customers' legal rights to return goods, which obviously they have in the EU and the UK, deceptive product labels and misleading sustainability claims and hidden contact details as well, making it difficult for customers to contact Shein about issues they might have with their products. Right. Now we're talking about this EU ruling. What do we know about the impact though this

might have for British customers? Well it's hard to say right now. I mean I suppose this is one of the impacts of Brexit. So we've left the European Union, the EU makes its own laws, and we may or may not follow suit. The UK lawmakers are not best pleased with Sheehan, at least at the moment. There's nothing quite as intense as this EU investigation, which is still ongoing due to its Digital Services Act. But we have had a business and select committee with MPs sort of grilling Xi in not over these issues, but actually over its use of cotton. So whether it uses Chinese cotton, this obviously coming off the back of concerns about cotton specifically from the Xi Yang region. So the short answer is we don't know but the mood

music from UK regulators is such that they may want to crack down on Sheen but I suppose they also have to balance that with the fact that there is the fact that Sheen is looking to list on the UK stock market and the UK government has also been trying to encourage companies to list in the UK. So perhaps it's more of a delicate balancing act for the UK, but it's hard to say at this point. And I mean, this is a big, big company, isn't it? You know, what are we talking about here in how much it sells?

Yeah, we're talking about a massive company. We're talking about a company that's been valued, it's had various valuations, you know, $30 billion. We won't know, of course, until it lists on a stock exchange and then its data can be more public. At the moment, it's not a particularly transparent company because it doesn't have to be because it's private. But the FT has reported that it's made $38 billion in revenue last year, so in 2024, but only 1 billion in sales. It has very, very tight margins, which obviously then puts, which kind of perhaps explains why it's come under pressure

for some of its labor practices as well. But yeah, an enormous company. And what do we know about the customers? I'm guessing it's more women than men who use it. Yeah, certainly in the UK. I mean, we've, you know, from reporting that we've done at the BBC, we've spoken to many women who use Shein. I suppose the difficulty once again comes back to the the opaqueness of the company. So we don't we don't know for certain whether it's more women than men using it but anecdotally that certainly that certainly seems to be the case.

So what have Sheen said in in response to this? Yeah Sheen did come back to us with a comment. They said that they will of course they say their priority remains ensuring that European consumers can have a safe, reliable, enjoyable online shopping experience. And they went on to say that they are working constructively with national consumers authorities and the EU Commission to demonstrate our commitment to complying with EU laws and regulations. And we are continuing to engage in this process to address any concerns. So, Shein obviously engaging with this process. But the EU still

needs a formal response from Shein or it could well face fines. I guess just finally Mitch, this is quite interesting because a few years ago I hadn't heard of Shein. Yeah, and I think you're not alone in that. I hadn't heard of Shien. I've been reporting on business for a while and I hadn't heard of Shien until, as you say, a few years ago. They seem to have come from nowhere, emerged very, very quickly. It's very similar to another Chinese retailer, Tmoo, both of them benefiting from the de minimis rule, so this ability to ship goods under £135 to the UK for much easier than

products more than that. And because their products are so cheap, they're able to sort of get under this de minimis rule. And when you're, I mean, when you're searching for products online, it strikes me that the first things that are suggested to you are from places like Shein and from Tmoo. Yeah, I think it's, it goes to show where they're spending their money, right? Like they're spending, you know, big advertising drive to try and get themselves in front of people. They obviously spend a lot of money on making that app. As the EU would say, perhaps not the most user-friendly, but a lot of money on trying to sell to customers.

Yeah, I think there's a reason that you see it online everywhere. Interesting, and I'm sure we'll be hearing more about this. Mitch, thank you very much. That's Mitch Labieck, the senior business journalist for the BBC. Now to our next guest. Joining me in the studio is comedy actor and writer, Sian Gibston. Now Sian is instantly recognisable to fans of Peter Kay's car share as the wonderful Kayleigh and she's back on our TV screens later this week, returning to the role of

Kath in the hit comedy, The Power of Parker, which is back for a second series. Now it's set in 90s Stockport, and the show centers around electrical shop owner, Martin Parker, his devoted mistress of 25 years, Kath, and his wife, her sister, Diane. Well, let's hear a little clip from the show. As series two opens, we see the sisters, Diane and Kath, enjoying a night out at the glamorous Stockport Business Awards, having rekindled

their relationship. Just dropped some tea off at Dad's before I came here. Still haven't done a thing about this packing, you know. Oh, I know. What did you make him? Bombay bad boy. Oh, for goodness sake, Kath. Well, it won't be me scrubbing that toilet tomorrow. I'll tell you that for nothing. Martin's watching backdraft. Told him I was working.

You're allowed to go out. Why do you keep lying to him all the time? Well, I have to. Excuse me, service. He hates it that we're friends now. Well, he needs to grow up. Aww. He's just a down die. I mean, I love the bones of him you know that but bloody hell it's hard working together isn't it? And he don't do a tap. Never did. Slaps them out. He sheds like a collie. I know I've already broke three overs. Hello? Oh this is ridiculous I might

as well be invisible. It's mad because he used to be like right randy all the time. Now we don't want to do anything. I don't think it's me around. I think he's just a bit depressed, you know, with not working and everything. I read that things like that affect a man's day, don't it? Does it?

It does, apparently. Great way to start this interview, isn't it, Charlotte? Welcome to- It's a good impression, isn't it? Yeah. Welcome to Woman's Isle. So that's from The Power of Parker. It became the biggest new scripted comedy of the year back in 2023. You're back now in the role of Kath, but for people

who didn't see it first time round, can you just set the scene for us and what the show's about? Well, it's set, series one is set 1990, Stockport, very Northern humour. It doesn't take itself seriously, it's very light-hearted and it centres on Martin Parker who played by the amazing Conleth Hill who is a big deal in Stockport, he's a big business bigwig and he is losing his power, his business is failing, he's in a lot of debt, borrowing money from the wrong people. And while all this goes on, his mistress, Kath, played by me, and his wife, Rosie Cavallera, who is Kath's sister, come together to get revenge on Martin for

messing them about. But he completely ignores them because he thinks they're just two middle-aged women, what can they do? And he doesn't think they can do anything because he's more interested in everything else going on in his life. The three of them are such brilliant characters, aren't they? And the second series starts with a montage of the two sisters, they're getting ready for the business awards and they're putting on their glad ragsags and going out but it's a bit of a difficult night for them isn't it? Yeah, Stockport Trade Awards. Diane's been nominated for Business of the Year for

Parkers because there's been a shift in power. Martin is now at home living with Cath, not working, relying on her wage as a hairdresser in a care home and Diane is running Parkers with Sandy Cooper played by the amazing Steve Pemberton and they're at these big trade awards and she asked Kath along for moral support and that the only two women, as I think it would have been in 1992, we've moved on two years, the only two women in the room which Kath thinks is great. It's very intimidating for Diane. Kath has a few drinks and goes a bit wayward. It's absolutely brilliant.

There is a lot of casual sexism, isn't there, which was usual for that time. But it is done in quite a funny way. How did you write that and make that? Because it's a difficult subject, isn't it? Because you don't want to say, this it's a difficult subject isn't it, because you don't want to say this is fine, but you need to acknowledge that it was happening. Well I feel like we can, I write with Paul Coleman and I feel like we can get away with a lot more because it's set in the 90s. And I worked in golf clubs and in pubs in the

90s. I've had all of those things said to me and water off a duck's back, you know, at the time, it was quite normal. So we tried to get lots of the casual sexism in without, we're not, it's with a very light touch, I think. We don't want, we're not going in to just kind of make a huge point about it, but that's what happened. And I think we can watch it and be a bit shocked now especially the way that Sandy Cooper speaks to Diane it's quite

shocking when we watch it now but it was never done with malice it was just he's just saying these things I think that's how it was and sometimes still is. And the characters of course are still kind of going through life and it is tender isn't it in moments? You know with your the relationship with your dad in the show as well. What inspired you to kind of write that relationship and those characters in particular? Well, we've got amazing George Costigan playing Kath and Diane's dad Dougie and amazing George Costigan playing Kath and Diane's dad Dougie and when we were thinking of things for series two we just didn't want to be two women fighting over a lover again because we've done that what can we do and we're

thinking and I spoke to Rosie as well and she'd been in the same situation and we're thinking as a family the thing that my family and many families of friends that I have, of women of a certain age, we're in that generation where we've got older parents, maybe younger children, and it's that constant juggle. And I think with me and my sisters, we row about our dad and the care of your dad. And we lost our mum a couple of years ago. So it's now everything is centered on our dad and I think that's real life of you know when

you've got older parents and you know my dad's great and still going but it is a constant battle that you have and we were thinking that's a good way for a bit of animosity between Kath and Diane of who does the most for your dad and a bit of competition there without it being about Martin again. And it is about the sisters relationship. You've got a sister as you said. What kind of made you want to write about that and what's your relationship with your sister like? Well I've got three sisters. Yeah. So and I'm the youngest, I'm the baby of the family. And again, we didn't set out for that. We, I'm very close with Rosie and always have been, so we wrote the part for Rosie and I think it just made it easy acting opposite her.

And we didn't set out for any agenda or anything, but like I said, it's, oh God, it's hard being middle-aged, isn't it? It's just rubbish and everything seems to come at you. Everyone's dying. There's so much going on and your families, work should be the easy thing. It's the home life that's the stressful thing, isn't it? So we were just trying to get a bit of that into it, but obviously me and Rosie are so close that we, you know, I think the chemistry comes through that we

could be, we could be sisters. Yeah, definitely the chemistry is there. I mentioned earlier in the programme about how you were working in a call centre, weren't you? And you've pretty much given up on acting. Tell me about that and then what happened to change it? Oh yeah, well like many actors, the work is, the work's not always there. And I was very lucky when I left college that, because I'm shorter, I always looked younger

until I hit 30, and I could play teenagers and the work was okay. And then I hit my 30s and the work really dried up. And I was not getting any auditions, nothing. And I just kind of gave up on it. And then one day I looked at my agent's website, just seeing what he was working. I wasn't on it.

And I'd just been, I'd just been taken off the website. And I was like, oh, that's it then. So that was that. And yeah, I was, I was very lucky that, obviously the Peter K. Karshare came along and it's, you know, Peter thought of me. I was very, very lucky to have a friend who supported me like that. And yeah.

That's a good friend to have, right? Yeah. We've been asking for people's views on this as well and their stories because it does happen doesn't it? That you, you know you you're kind of pursuing something and you've pretty much given up on it and then you know something comes out the blue or you keep going you pursue your dream I mean you could have you know what do you ever think about that kind of sliding doors moment if you hadn't have got that call if you haven't if Peter Kay hadn't contacted you. Well it is a massive sliding doors moment because I kind of accepted that, I mean I

live in North Wales so where I live it's not the centre of the entertainment world and I was happy, you know, I wasn't absolutely gutted that this could be the end of the career or the dream. I was like well I'll just move on to the next thing, which sounds really, really defeatist and bad. But it was just, I'm very much, as all my friends, I'm so disorganized. I'm always the last. I'm always late and I can't plan in advance with anything and I just very much, well, you know, something will come along. Quite optimistic in that way. Is there any inspiration that you've got from that call centre? There must have been some funny things.

Oh, there's so many people. In fact, yeah, when we did Car Share actually, Conleth Hill, who plays Martin Parker, played Elsie the Smurf in Car Share. And I'd never really met Conleth before and he was playing a woman and we were our first scene together we were on a night out and we were supposed to be drunk on the way back from a night out and he's so believable I just thought that it felt like a night out that I'd had at the call center with with I'm not gonna say a name but one of the women I used to

work with who was an older lady and I was when I first met him I was pulling up his tights and I thought this is a bit inappropriate. So I'm going to get sacked tomorrow. But it was just so believable. But there's so many people that we've all met and Paul as well along the way that you just add in. Because I think one thing with Power of Parker,

what we're trying to do is that all the characters are really relatable and that the people you know, so that in this series things go, cuts a bit of a liability, causes a lot of drama and things go a bit dramatic and take twists and turns and we think well if the cameras, the characters are believable we can go a bit further with them and push them so it's ordinary people with mental things going on in their lives. Yeah. When you did land that part then in Car Share as Kayleigh, how did that change your life from that point? Because you must have been able to go about your daily business

as a call centre worker without people recognising you. Did it kind of switch very quickly? Yeah. I mean, I still live in the same place. I still live in the same village. So things haven't changed that much really. You know, where I live, nobody cares. So I still go about my daily life. My daughter hates anything when I'm on telly. She's very, she's a teenager.

She's very embarrassed. So I have to keep on the down low for her really. And she'll be absolutely mortified that I've mentioned. Oh, I'm sure she's very embarrassed, so I have to keep on the down low for her really and she'll be absolutely mortified that I've mentioned. Oh, I'm sure she's very proud of you without saying it in the way that teenagers do. So you talked about the fact that you didn't have any work for a while. It is up and down, isn't it, we know, in your industry. So how do you keep that sense of balance in your life? Writing Para Parker has been great because it's been something that's given me a bit of focus

and a motivation and I definitely want to write more things. But I don't know, it's just weird isn't it? Because as I said if you've got parents who you need to look after and you've got children as well, they're the things that take up most of your head space, really, and anything else is an add-on. And sometimes an inconvenience. Sometimes work is an inconvenience if you've got other things going on that you've got to do at home.

So it's just trying to balance it all, isn't it? With every occupation, every one of my friends, every one of the school mums, we've all got the same juggles to do, no matter what our jobs are, really. You wrote a lot of 90s references in the show, and a lot of them I was just chuckling away to you know there's talks about you know Fred's weather map from this morning and yeah it's just it's just brilliant reminiscing all the way through that

must have been fun. I've not moved on. Well Conleth and I was saying last night that you say it's 90s and it's a period piece and I just think, how is it, how is this a period piece? It's, I've still got the same makeup. It's just, it's mad. But yeah, what we used to, what Paul and I love doing is going through, watching sort of old Top of the Pops and getting references from that. And yeah, I think I've got quite a dated sense of humor.

Maybe that's what's coming through. But the outfits as well, there's this lovely kind of red shoulder pad dress with the gold on it. You know, it's that transition movie from the 80s, isn't it? A lot of lycra. Our director, Joe Roberts, he really loved that dress and he was going, you've got to wear it, it's so funny. And I said to Rosie, I tried it on and I was like, Rosie, as my friend, when this goes on telly, am I going to hate my life? Come on, it's not very forgiving. It clings to all the wrong places. And Rosie said, you're doing a comedy, you can't be vain. And I was like, okay, I'm not even going to wear Spanx.

I feel like if you walked out wearing that now, people would think you're a fashion icon. You could do it. All the 90s is back, I tell you. So what's next? What are you working on now? I'm about to start filming another BBC comedy called Mammoth. We did that last year. So series one came out, oh gosh, last year sometime, last June.

So we're about to start filming series two in Cardiff, which is, Mike Bulbin's very exciting. So start that next and yeah, who knows? As I said, I'm very disorganised. That takes me until the school holidays. Then I've got school holidays to contend with and then who knows what else. Real life. It's been so lovely to speak to you, Sian. Thank you so much and just to say that the power of Parker returns to BBC2 and the iPlayer from this Friday the 30th of May so make sure you look look out for that and as I was saying we want to hear your stories of when you've almost given up on something but then you've persevered and kept going and had a success from it. So get in touch with us, we're on 84844.

We'd love to hear your stories on that. Now last week, more than 60 UK and international NGOs published a joint statement to the UK government against what they deem a shameful proposal to eradicate standalone funding for gender equality programmes in foreign aid. They're asking for the Foreign Office to protect the funding for this area, which currently sits at 12% of UK aid. And this doesn't only affect the UK as global aid cuts have been impacting programmes worldwide since the beginning of the year. And a recent UN Women report surveying over 400 agencies said that 90% of global women's rights organizations

said their operations had been financially impacted by the cuts, and nearly half of them expect to shut down within six months unless further funding is secured. Well, to discuss this further, I'm joined by Dr. Helen Pankhurst, the Senior Advisor on Gender Equality for Care International UK, which is an international NGO working in over 100 countries with a focus on women and girls programmes.

And also Sophia Caltrop, the UN Women Chief of Humanitarian Aid and Director of UN Women's Geneva's Office. Thank you both for joining me here on Women's Hour. Helen, if I can start with you, I think it's a good place to start to explain what type of projects are potentially at risk of these cuts and what do we mean by gender equality programmes. Yeah, thank you and good morning.

What's awful about this idea of a gender mainstreaming approach which is being talked about, it hasn't been brought in yet, but the idea is that instead of having standalone programmes, for example, that address issues of violence against women, women's particular economic issues, health, sexual reproductive health, public health. There are many aspects where having that focus on women and girls makes all the difference to those who are most marginalised, even issues about climate change. If you provide funds that are specific to women and girls, you address certain problems that you don't see if you have this gender mainstreaming approach. The government is now saying that it's going to bring this general gender mainstreaming approach, which means

you lose that very specific approach. And we think this is devastating. This isn't about money. We can come on to the fact that there's been cuts in funding. It's about the approach. And they haven't introduced this yet, but they are saying that that's the approach that they're going to do. So we have this call, we've had many organisations, over 60 organisations horrified by this idea that this is going to be the approach that they're going to use. It's against the Labour Manifesto that had focused and talked about the importance of women and girls in international development. It's against all of our experience. I'm near retirement and I've

been working on international development all my life and this issue about the dangers of a mainstreaming approach is so evident that the fact that we're going back on FCDO, on the government's own experiences in this area is horrific. Your statement opens with the line the UK is poised to deliver the worst aid budget for women and girls on record. That is a strong statement and from what you've just said, you believe that that is potentially the situation we could be in.

Absolutely, because you're losing that really clear focus on the most marginalised, those that are least likely to be causing a lot of the problems in the world and yet without that support, we're leaving them, we're abandoning millions of women and girls and it's linked to the second point about the funding reduction. So the UK used to give 0.7% of its national income that was reduced by the previous government to 0.5. Now it's being reduced to 0.3 again against the Labour Manifesto, against what a lot of polls are telling us that people think should be done. And the combination of losing the strategic

vision of the importance of women and girls and the reduction in funding to this area together means that this government is going to be on record for delivering the least for women and girls despite its ideology of actually understanding the importance of that focus. But of course the government has said that you know it needs to spend money elsewhere, defence spending for example, what do you say to that? I say that there's a direct connection between development diplomacy and defence and a lot of people in defence have said and there's media analysis of this that defence is at the and there's media analysis of this, that defence

is at the end of that spectrum of the three factors. That the more you do in international aid, the more you are starting at the causal factor. That is where the problems occur. And this is, you know, I know many people also feel that there are issues that are around defense and for example refugees that are taking out taking people's time and all the rest of it but many people the polls show us can both be worried about issues such as the refugees and internal issues and care passionately about the position of women and girls. So we have had this polling that's shown that 68% of people feel that international

aid should focus on violence against women and polling that shows that six out of eight Labour supporters feel that there needs to be this focus on women and girls. So both for the issue around the focus, the need to focus on women and girls, we are calling for the government to abandon that idea of not having the mainstreaming approach, sorry, yeah, to abandon that mainstreaming approach and asking for a focus on women and girls. And we are calling for this allocation of at least 12% of funding to the area of women and girls. And the importance of funding women and girls who are at the forefront of problems in the world is understood

by the public. So that idea that we need to cut aid is not a popular position. We have asked the Foreign Office for comment. They gave us this statement. The UK remains committed to empowering women and girls around the world through our international work. They say they will continue to work with international partners in support of this. They say they will use targeted funding

and diplomatic engagement to provide leadership on gender issues. This includes supporting leaders and activists in their home countries and ensuring our development and humanitarian programs integrate gender and women's perspectives. I just want to come to Sophia Kaltorp of UN Women. Sophia, this is not happening in a vacuum as foreign aid cuts are happening globally. US government, who has the world's largest aid donor, this year cut 83% of its

foreign aid budget. So can you just tell us what the wider impact of global aid cuts has been on women and girls? Thank you very much and good morning. I think, you know, and as you said, in every crisis, women-led and women's rights organizations are the ones stepping up. They are providing care, they ensure that women's voices are heard, and they really help shaping local solutions. So for us at UN Women, when, you know,

we saw the foreign aid cuts unfolding globally, looking into how this affect women led organizations globally was key for us because again those are really the ones at the front lines who are there for the communities, for the women and girls in humanitarian crisis. And as you said in the beginning of the program, the findings that we showed when we launched this survey was really shocking with 90% of women led organizations being impacted and almost half of them having possibly to close down within the next six months. So this is a crisis that is unfolding in front of our eyes in all humanitarian context around the globe.

We looked into 44 of them, surveyed 411 women's organizations and this starking results is really an alarm bell that for us as UN Women how can we advocate for more funding to go to women-led organisations, not only to respond to the needs of the women, but as we know, if we resource local women-led organisations, we will get a more effective human-turned response that also, of course, helps support and develop local communities in those very very fragile settings. So yeah that's our findings. Some listeners may be thinking you know why do we need these type of programs that are aimed at women and girls in 2025? Why do we need them? For many different reasons. I think it's

important to remind ourselves that we live in a world with exponential humanitarian needs. Today there are more than 308 million people who are in desperate need of humanitarian aid. And we see across all conflict and humanitarian settings that women and girls be at the brunt of this crisis. Women and girls, they lost services, they lost their safety, they lost their autonomy. And also, resourcing women and girls is not only resourcing women and girls and attending to their needs, but making sure that they can respond

within their communities. So it's not only the right thing to do, but it's also the smart thing to do if we want humanitarian aid to reach the most vulnerable and have the greatest effect. Then of course we see the rise of gender-based violence, we see the rise of conflict-related sexual violence. I just come from Sudan where we have a triple increase in GBV services over the past two years. So the needs are there but also the women's organisations ability to respond within the communities. So therefore what can the UN do and what has it committed doing in order to ensure that the you know those who are vulnerable in society including women and girls of course can

continue to be reached? So we are committed always to work with women led organizations for women and girls in the crisis context and conflicts and and and what we do is that we resource them, we advocate for women and the girls to have a seat at the table, but also to make sure that their specific needs are met. Again, I just come from Sudan, and it's just to see how those local women are managing to respond with very, very little

within their communities. I think it really gives me even more energy to make sure that this is what we focus on. Because if we resource local women-led organisations, we do reach the most vulnerable and we make sure that humanitarian aid is used as effectively as possible. Helen, lastly, if I can come to you. So, excuse me, the government is set to make further comments on the allocation of the age budget coming up next month in June.

What are you hoping to see out of this? Or have you got any kind of thoughts or comments for the UK government? Very much like to see 12% ring fence focused on women and girls. And I mean, 12%, is that a big ask? I almost feel embarrassed to be asking for 12% because you'd want it to be so much more because we know how efficient, effective and equitable that can be with that kind of approach. So it's that and for the wonderful Women's Hour listeners, if any

of you feel that this is more important issues, please do contact your MPs because we can make that push by showing that people care and we care about women and girls all over the world. Okay, Dr Helen Pankhurst and Sophia Caltrop, thank you very much for your time here on Woman's Hour. I've been asking for your moments when you're about to give up on something and then it came good. This is after we were talking to comedy actor Sian Gibson about when she was about to, she was working in a call centre and thought that her acting days were over when none other than Peter Kay gave her a call.

So we've had this comment in from Liz who says, I've been trying to be a children's book illustrator for 12 years. I gave up a number of times as I'd never got anywhere. I decided it was impossible, but nevertheless even I kept on returning to this impossible dream. Liz goes on to say, finally, having written and drafted the illustrations for a book six years ago, I have a publisher and the book will come out in November. I nearly missed their reply email because I got so used to never hearing back from anyone. Good luck

to all the creators out there. It's a difficult world. Liz, thanks so much for getting in touch. And if you've got any comments on that, do message on 84844. We'd love to hear your stories. Now Argentinian author Agustina Basterica, her novel Tender is the Flesh became a worldwide sensation with sales of over half a million copies in the English translation alone. Now her most recent novel, The Unworthy, is set in post-climate apocalypse in a walled sanctuary that's known as the Sacred Sisterhood. But is it a refuge from the disease and violence that exists outside its walls or a dangerous prison for the women who live there. I'm delighted to

say that Agustina joins me in the studio now. Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm honored. So the book is set in a religious order. How would you describe that religion? Well, I have to say that I'm from Argentina and I was educated in a nun school, Catholic nun school. And what happened there is that you have a sense of oppression all the time because the nuns did something really clever but really cruel. That was that all the students were all were all women, and the professors,

all women, and the nuns, and the priests, the only men, we all control each other, like in a panoptic view. So you were always suspected as unworthy, you know? And if you go to your house after school, you were controlled by God. So you were always there controlled. And this religion that I invented is more or less like that, you know. And it's the hierarchy of the sacred sisterhood in the book The Unworthy. I mean, like you were just saying there, they kind of turn on each other.

Yes. So what kind of, what was the inspiration for that? Was it your experience? My experience. And then the idea came to me in 2018. I was invited to the Cusco Fair Book in Peru. And since I have a degree in art history, of course I love art, and I went to a museum where they have this Cuscanian arts

that I studied in the university. And I was the only tourist there. where they have this Cuscanian arts that I studied in the university. And I was the only tourist there. And the museum, it was a monastery where nuns lived a long time ago. And I was looking to one of these pictures, to one of these works of art and I get, I look around and I saw a nun praying and I almost die of a heart attack because I thought it was a real nun and actually it was a mannequin and it was really sinister and I thought I have to write about nuns and there is the idea of the unworthy God to me. And I spent a lot of time thinking how to write it,

because in the how you're going to tell the story, you have everything. So it was also the inspiration of my experience in the nun school, you know, both things. The outside world is very mysterious, isn't it, in the book? What has happened outside the walls? What happened is that what is happening now with the climate change. For example, this year in Argentina in a city we had a flood, you know, water, a lot of water, and I talk about that in the book. And extreme things are happening all around the world. And so in the book all the catastrophes happened and you have nothing at all. So that is why she gets to the monastery

where she's not having a great time, really bad time, but getting out there, it's worst, you know, because you have nothing at all. And it's, we talk about climate change today, don't we, we talked about the floods today, don't we? We talked about the floods there, but it's the extreme in the book. Yes, it's absolutely extreme and also extreme in the group they create that is a cult, you know. And I study a lot about cults because I thought why are really prepared person or

intelligent person could get inside a cult and believe things that are incredible. And one of the things that you have to be is vulnerable. If you are vulnerable, you're, well, you have more chances to get into a cult. So, yeah, they have this menace all the time and they tell them that they have to believe in this God because this God is protecting them from the contamination outside. And the protagonist writes a diary that she has to hide. Yes. And you've got your book there. There's a short reading there if you wouldn't mind reading that to us.

Okay. Sorry for my English but I will try. I write with a small sharp quill I keep close in the hem of my white nightgown. With the ink I store under the wooden floorboards. On the pages I hide next to my skin held by the strip of fabric I use for this purpose. There are times I need them on me, close to my heart, under my great tunic, which was worn by the men who used to live here. We believe they were priests, monks, men of religion, ushered men who chose to live as though they were in the Middle Ages. They're dead, but some of the women say they see them of the corners of their eyes in the

dark. It's rumored that when he and the superior sister arrived from the rabbit earth, the collapsed world, they found neither mobiles nor computers. She risks, doesn't she? She risks severe punishment writing this. Yes, all the time. And she writes with her blood even. Why? Why did you write that in that she would risk keeping this journal? You know it's funny but when this book was published in Argentina I read a book written by a Cuban author Reinaldo Arenas. He was persecuted in Cuba because he was gay.

And he wrote this book that is called in Spanish, Antes que Nochezca, and in English, before Nightfall, I guess. And there he says he talks about how he needed to write all the time, even though he was persecuted. He needed to write all the time, even though he was persecuted, even though when he got out from Cuba, he rewrote a lot of books. So what I thought when I was reading is this man needed literature to live, to stay alive. And my protagonist needs to write to stay alive, because one of the things that I worked in the book is where is the sacred thing.

It's in the God they pray to or where. And in my opinion, in the writing, she has a refuge. She has a sacred place, you know? So she needed to remember what happened before, but also to connect with herself and to understand what is happening. And well, literature, actually, she's surviving because of literature, like in my case. I think it's fair to say this book isn't for the faint-hearted, is it? It has been described as horror, but briefly you don't really identify as writing horror.

No, with Turner is the Flesh, what happened is that in the United States, it's a bestseller, and they qualify the book as horror. But in Argentina, it's qualified as dystopia, so science fiction. And some people qualify it as ecofeminist. I mean, I don't write in a specific gender. I think everything is literature. And even to write Tender is the Flesh or The Unworthy I read a lot of essays, not horror books, you know. So, but of course it's not a romantic novel, like it's not a

feel-good book, you know, it's a feel-bad book. Okay, I'm sorry, we're going to have to leave it there. Augustina Besterica on her novel The Unworthy. Thank you very much indeed. Now, since Labour has come to power, there's been a number of issues that have divided the party, from tax rises to whether it should be a two or three child benefit cap. The tension has been tangible.

And with accusations of briefings against female cabinet members, what impact is this Labour infighting having on women in the party? Well, joining me a little earlier to discuss this was Chief Political Commentator for the I-Paper, Kitty Donaldson, and UK Politics Commentator for Bloomberg, Rosa Prince. With the Telegraph reporting government tensions over the influence of a new top adviser, Liz Lloyd, who was Sir Tony Blair's former fixer, I began by asking Rosa to tell me more. It's funny, it's the latest in a series of briefings we've had really even before the

Labour Party got back into government. First against Sue Gray, you'll remember Keir Starmer's top civil servant who he brought in to be his chief advisor. Then every now and then you'll hear some briefing against some of his cabinet ministers and indeed this seems to be the latest very senior woman in number 10 who's getting talked about as someone who's causing trouble. Can you just explain what you mean by briefing against? Yeah so it might be that this person is proving disruptive, people don't get on with them, it might be in the case of the cabinet ministers, oh they're going

to lose their jobs, they're not performing very well, they're causing ructions and as the months have gone by it does seem to be that it's often the women who are the victim of these briefings and also increasingly as you talk to women MPs it's something that they raise themselves, that they worry that there is a kind of boys club around Keir Starmer and that women just aren't let into the circle as much as the men. That term boys club we've heard in the papers as well. Kitty, what do you make of that and what's your perception? I think I disagree with Rosa. I mean, I agree with her in the sense that I've had a female Labour MP come up to me and say,

who do I have to sleep with to get my messages returned from number 10? She used a slightly different verb. I'm sure your listeners can tell which. But I've had these briefings myself and I don't think it is because they are women. I think it's because they're perceived to be individually underperforming.

After Louise Hay lost her job as transport secretary on what many in the parliamentary party thought was flimsy grounds for dismissal, after it merged she'd pleaded guilty to a fraud offence a decade ago which Keir Starmer knew about. And then you add that to Bridget Phillips in the education secretary and Lisa Nandy the culture secretary, I think it adds up to collective sense in the women's parliamentary Labour party that there's a theme to the briefing, i.e. misogyny. And I thought, though I think it adds up to collective sense in the Women's Parliamentary Labour Party that there's a theme to the briefing, i.e. misogyny. And I thought, though I think that's accidental because I think it's a sort of jigsaw that's grown over time, I think it's now a perceived problem that is an issue in and of itself.

Now, of course, there are senior women in the Labour Party itself, aren't there? So does that go against what people are saying about it being a boys club kitty? I mean, I think this boys club thing stemmed from when they were in opposition, when the team around Kistan was very male, very nimble, very ruthless. But since they've been in office, you know, lots more women have got involved. When they had the sort of big reset back in December, they got Claire Reynolds, who worked for Labour Women's Network before she came into number ten to be the kind of liaison with MPs. And I think people like her, people like Steph Driver, who's the director of comms, and her deputy Sophie Nazimi, they're all kind of,

you know, women who can hold their own. I don't think that necessarily it is a boys' club. Rosa, what are your thoughts on what Kitty just said? Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's black and white, obviously, and there are senior women. But I think there hangs around Keir Starmer this perception that aside from one or two women, he's more comfortable with men. One thing I've definitely noticed is in the Commons Chamber, he does seem to give the women a rougher ride to the extent that last week he actually had to apologize to the leader of Plaid Cymru Liz Savile Roberts because he's incredibly rude to her and

Kemmy Badenock has picked up on this she said that he patronizes her in some of his answers and and as I sit there at PMQs every week I do sometimes feel like he wouldn't have spoken the way he does to a man, the way he sometimes speaks to a woman. So I don't think that Keir Starmer is a misogynist, and I think he does have senior women around him, and he has obviously relationships with women. But I think it's less accessible to women than the men who seem to club together, again, not consciously. But I think there's

a tinge of something happening there to the extent that female MPs in the party do pick up on it. And I mean, the fact that we're talking about it and this is discussed in the papers, to both of you, starting with Rosa, what do you think this might do to the perception, the public's perception of the Labour Party? I don't think it's a good look. I mean, I think it's absolutely a scandal that the Labour Party, which is meant to be a progressive left-wing party, has never had a female leader. And I think that what happens when it comes around to leadership elections is that they kind of begin to look for

the person who they think looks like a prime minister and subconsciously that doesn't seem to be a woman. I mean, they've had some great, very impressive women who get quite high up in the party, but they never seem to get through that glass ceiling. And I think that's something that they need to be aware of and to start thinking about. Kitty, your thoughts? I would absolutely agree with that. And I think when it comes to the next leadership election we're already seeing some sort of early signs of movement on that. The party will be under some

sort of collective pressure to install, I don't know, a Rachel Reeves character in Yvette Cooper or even Angela Rayner just for the sake of not having the Tories and reform and everyone saying actually, you know, you've got a problem here. Let's turn to the child poverty strategy and Bridget Phillipson today said on the Today programme that the delay is because we want to get it right. Kitty, what do you see as going on here with that delay to that strategy? I mean this is all a bit of a mess, isn't it? I think we can take this back to the local elections, possibly even before that. When Labour MPs were out on the doorstep up and

down England and in the Runcorn and Halesby by-election, they got messages direct from voters who said, well, we're not happy about the winter fuel payment to taking away from pensioners and we're not happy about child poverty. Child poverty less so on the doorstep I think than winter fuel. Winter fuel really cut through as an issue. But now they're back in Westminster, it's the parliamentary Labour Party really driving this thing, part of an existential thing, why do we come into government if we're not going to govern as Labour? And you'll hear that quite a lot from MPs. And now what's in their kind of sites is this cap on

the number of children you can have and claim benefits for. And the child poverty strategy had been due to be published before the summer recess, i.e. in the next month or so. But that's now been pushed back to the autumn because they've got all these things that have been thrown up in the air by having to find an extra... Well, if they brought back the winter fuel payment to pensioners it would cost 1.4 billion overall, I don't think they're going to do that but even so they've got to find a lot of money from somewhere and that

throws everything else into jeopardy. And Rosa we've got the Reform UK Parties press conference later this morning, they have said that they'll end the two child benefit cap. And we're still waiting, aren't we, to hear what what Labour's going to do about that? Yeah, that's right. It's such a fascinating time in British politics because reform was always seen as a party of the right. And now Nigel Farage, having really gone for the Conservatives at their last election, damaged them very badly, has now set his sights on labour. And this is the real start of it. He already called for the nationalisation of some industries with British Steel, and now he is kind of trying to outflank

labour on the left by calling for benefits such as the full return of winter fuel, also on child poverty, to restore the, or to end the cap, the two child benefit cap. And there are so many demands now on Rachel Reeves and so many things that she's going to have to pay for that everything's kind of up in the air. That's only been compounded by this kind of partial U-turn on winter fuel where Keir Starmer said, "'Yeah, we're gonna restore some payments, but not all and we're not going to tell you when and that I think means

that number 10 has a bit of a problem because it looks like if you apply a bit of pressure they'll give way. So a lot of Labour MPs have been very unhappy for a long time about the two-child benefit cap and now that Najah Faraj is pushing too, yeah it's really hard for Rachel Reeves to toe the line, but where does all this money come from? Rosa Prince and Kitty Donaldson there. Well, we approached the government for a statement. We're waiting their response, but in a statement given to The Telegraph regarding Liz Lloyd, the Downing Street Playdown talker divisions saying, Liz has a wealth of knowledge and

experience not least of delivering policy delivery in the last Labour government, which is why the Prime Minister hired her. They say she's working closely with Bridget and other ministers to deliver on this government's plan for change. Thank you very much for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. She needs to see this. She needs to see Paddington too, apparently, so keep it brief. Nobody, comma, in the country, comma, can access any of their money. Full stop. Money Gone, a new fast-paced satirical thriller from BBC Radio 4.

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