Woman's Hour - Sinead O'Connor tribute, Singapore is scheduled to execute a woman, Scottish women artists, Date stacking, Femorabilia.

Episode Date: July 27, 2023

The Irish musician and activist Sinéad O Connor has died, aged 56. She was best known for her single Nothing Compares 2 U, released in 1990, which reached number one and brought her worldwide fame. She was outspoken in her social and political views, and released 10 studio albums during her career. We hear a special performance that Sinéad gave to Woman’s Hour in 2013, and Krupa speaks to the journalists Sinéad Gleeson and Una Mullally about her legacy.Singapore is due to execute a woman for the first time in almost 20 years, according to human rights advocates. Singaporean national Saridewi Djamani was sentenced to the mandatory death penalty in 2018, after she was convicted of drug trafficking. Krupa discusses with BBC Correspondent Nick Marsh.As a part of this year’s Edinburgh Festival a major exhibition called Scottish Women Artists: 250 Years of Challenging Perception opens tomorrow. It celebrates women artists and their contributions to the Scottish art scene. A series of new artworks has been created, to show in and alongside the exhibition. Krupa speaks to artist Sekai Machache and the director of Dovecot Studios Celia Joicey.‘Date stacking’ is the latest trend being tried by single people to find love, quickly. The concept, designed to save time by squeezing in several dates in the space of a few hours, went viral on TikTok earlier this year. It’s not a totally original idea, it’s a slowed down version of speed dating, which was popular in the 1990s. A new study suggests it takes us 42 minutes and 29 seconds to decide if we want to see someone again. But can you really decide if you like someone while preparing for the next date? Krupa discusses the pros and cons with journalist Roisin Kelly who has tried out stacking her dates and Johnny Cassell, dating and lifestyle Strategist. Tired of the limited options for female fans, football historian Professor Jean Williams was inspired to make her own football memorabilia out of upcycled clothes. She joins Krupa from Australia (where she’s attending her seventh Women’s World Cup) to explain women’s football’s self-made culture.Presented by Krupa Padhy Producer: Louise Corley

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bhatti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Dating is a different world to what it was a decade or two ago. From introductions through family and friends to speed dating and dating apps, it can be a minefield. Well, how about date stacking? It's a trend inspired by a TikTok video that went viral recently involving a New Yorker going on back-to-back dates in a very short space of time. We'll be speaking to journalist Roisin Kelly, who also gave it a shot to save on the hours because in her own words, dating has become just another thing that has to be done. What do you make of date stacking? Have you tried it?

How do you manage dating? Or maybe you are a romantic at heart and believe in destiny doing its thing. When the time is right, the stars will align and you will meet your partner. This is how you can get in touch. You can text the programme. That number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Over on social media,

you will find us on the handle at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, you can email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp message or an audio note using the number 03700 100 444. Also, you will have heard of memorabilia. What about femorabilia? That is the upcycling of old items of clothing and transforming them into outfits that celebrate female players and sports teams.

We will cross to Sydney and speak to Jean Williams, who is doing just that for the Women's World Cup. Another celebration, this time of women artists in Scotland. It opens tomorrow. Two women central to that exhibition will join us. And we look back at the life of Sinead O'Connor. A few years ago, she sang for us here on Woman's Hour. We're going to share that with you once again.

But we begin with a story that's getting a lot of attention globally. Singapore is due to execute a woman for the first time in almost 20 years, one of two killings planned for this week, according to human rights advocates. Singaporean national Salidevi Jamami was sentenced to mandatory death penalty in 2018 after she was convicted of drug trafficking. Now, if it goes ahead, activists believe she would be the first woman to be executed in Singapore since 2004. I'm joined by Nick Marsh from our BBC Singapore team. Good to have you with us, Nick.

Hi, Krupa. Hi. Give us the background to this. Why is Jumani facing the death penalty? Well, yes. So back in 2016, Sadi Dewi Jumani was found guilty, as you say, of trafficking 30 grams of heroin, which is about two tablespoons, by the way. Not an awful lot. Now, she says that the drugs were for personal use. She was a drug addict. She'd actually already been to jail for possession a couple of years previously. The reason that she had that quantity, the 30 grams,

she says is because she actually wanted to stock up a little bit during Ramadan. But the Singaporean court didn't believe her. They said that she wanted to sell all of it. She was found guilty and therefore sentenced to death in 2018. And in Singapore, if you're found guilty of drug trafficking, the death penalty is mandatory. So yeah, she will be hanged later this week. And that's really important, isn't it to get a sense of the context of this because the laws in Singapore for drug possession are serious and

extreme. Yeah, they are. I mean, this is one of the few countries in the world that executes for drugs. I think it's only China, Iran and Saudi Arabia who do the same. I mean, we actually had an execution yesterday of Mohammed Aziz bin Hussein, a 57 year old man. He was executed for trafficking 50 grams of heroin. I mean, it's not quite as common as that. You know, this is this is, you know, two executions in the space of a week. I think over the past 20 years or so, you usually get on average, maybe five or so a year kind of single digits. Last year, there were 11 executions. That's probably more to do with the pandemic that created, I suppose, a backlog, if that's what you

want to call it. But we've had some quite high profile ones. You know, there's this one that we're talking about. There was one earlier this year, actually, of a man who was executed for trafficking cannabis, which he hadn't even touched. The police say that that doesn't matter. He's using his phone to coordinate it. There was a very high profile one last year of a young man with a low IQ. He was thought to have learning difficulties. That was the defence.

Yes, I remember, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that got a lot of international attention. Richard Branson got involved. In the end, all his appeals were dismissed too, and he was also executed. From that list you've just mentioned, they're all men. So how unusual is it for a woman to be facing the death penalty? It's very unusual. Krupa, I mean, the last one was back in 2004, nearly 20 years ago,

like you say. This was a hairdresser called Yen May Wan, also a Singaporean, also, of course, for drug trafficking. I mean, I don't think there's any particular reason for so few women facing the death penalty in Singapore. I mean, there's no sort of evidence for any reason. If you get caught, the death penalty is mandatory, male or female. But I suppose, you know, you look statistically around the world, those involved in drug trafficking are majority male, seems to be the case here too. But there is, though, another stark discrepancy, actually. And it's something when you talk to anti-death penalty campaigners here it's one that they point out a lot in Singapore and the overwhelming majority of these executed are not just male they're actually from minority ethnic groups as well so often you know poor

not very well educated Singapore's a majority Chinese society significant sort of Malay an Indian Singaporean minority and the people on death row tend to be Malay and Indian ethnicity. So, you know, the underlying factors behind what's driving this crime, I mean, something that, you know, you have to say you have to must be absolutely desperate to resort to given the laws here. That's what's being ignored. That's the argument of the death, anti-death penalty campaigners. And that's what they being ignored. That's the argument of the anti-death penalty campaigners and that's what they're trying to say. Just so I'm clear, Nick, you talk about so many of these people facing the death penalty being of Malay Indian origin.

Is that the case with Saridevi Jamani as well? Yes, absolutely, yeah. That's a Malay name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In terms of reaction to this, what are human rights groups saying about this? Well, they're very upset, of course. I mean, their argument consistently is that the death penalty doesn't do anything to deter drug use, to stop crime.

And also, I suppose their biggest argument, it doesn't go after the big bosses, you know, the kingpins, the mafia, organised crime. You're going after the mules, you know, the poor and impressionable drug addicts. So, you know, you've got this blunt instrument of death penalty, a sort of really uncompromising form of deterrence, which wouldn't stop anyone who's been desperate enough to do anyway. But you have to say, Krupa, you know, I've been here for a number of years now in Singaporeapore these people are very much in the minority you know you look at the polling singaporeans are very much in favor of the death penalty you speak to you know anecdotally they'll tell you they're very happy with the way things are because drug use is low you know addiction is low and all they have to do is

point to europe point to the united states they'll say look at the levels of addiction there look at the societal havoc drugs have been causing. They say, look, we don't want that. And I remember last year there was a protest in the city centre, which is incredibly rare in Singapore, by the way. It's almost, you have to get a permit. It has to be in a specific part of the city. And it was an anti-death penalty protest. Very, very, very rare. And there was only really a couple of hundred people in a city of nearly of nearly six million so you know you have these you know very sort of staunch campaigners there might be people who are on the fence either way but there's no sort of tide of public opinion I know you have people like Richard Branson who's very vocal he tweets about

it he was invited to a debate actually by the, by the Home Affairs Minister on TV, but he politely declined that. So there's a lot of international condemnation and amongst activists here as well. But generally amongst, you know, your average citizen, I think they think the system works. And is that even the case with the fact that this is a woman facing the death penalty, that the government and the people are on the same page? I would say so. I would say so. I mean, it's always very hard in Singapore to canvas true public opinion, given how tightly controlled the media is. But I don't think that the fact that she's a woman is it would engender, you know, much more sympathy, to be honest, I think, in the eyes of, you know, people who defend the death penalty, the rules are very clear. And if you break them, you know, this is the punishment.

Looking ahead, Nick, how likely is it that this sentence will go ahead in the coming days? Extremely unlikely. I mean, in my time since I've been here, I've never seen any appeal, even appeals which you think might have quite a strong basis having been accepted. There's always the option of a presidential pardon. Again, I can't remember that ever having happened someone might be able to correct me in you know in previous decades but once the courts have made their decision they seem to to really stick to them.

We will be watching it closely thank you so much that is Nick Marsh with us there from our BBC team in Singapore. You may have heard on The Great Vine that Listeners Week is approaching, where we dedicate an entire week to your ideas and stories. So do you have a unique new hobby that you'd like to share with the world? Maybe you're part of a bell ringing group,

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we are at BBC Women's Hour. You can, of course, email us through our website as well. Many of you have been doing just that with your views on date stacking, and I will get to them very shortly, a little later in the programme. But next, on to a story that is getting so much reaction on social media, across the media, in fact. The Irish musician and activist Sinead O'Connor has died at the age of 56. She was best known for her single Nothing Compares to You, released in 1990,

which reached number one and brought her worldwide fame. She was outspoken in her social and political views and released 10 studio albums during her career. As a teenager, she was placed in one of the notorious Magdalene laundries. One nun brought her a guitar and set her up with a music teacher, which led to the launch of O'Connor's musical career. Back in 2013, Sinead performed a song in the Woman's Hour studio called Reason With Me. Hello, you don't know me But I stole your laptop and I took your TV. I sold your granny's rosary for 50p. And I even pulled out a hijack, said I had a hypodermic in my backpack.

But I was only bluffing. Oh, so long I've been a junkie. I ought to wrap it up and mind my monkeys. I really want to mend my ways. I'm going to call that number one of these days It's not too late I'm the one who sits in the back room I'm the one who doesn't know how to have fun

I'm the one to smoke a mist all around me cause I don't want no one around me cause if I love someone I might lose someone if I

love someone I might lose someone all so long I've been a junk I love someone, I might lose someone. All so long I've been a junkie. I ought to wrap it up and mind my monkeys. I really want to mend my ways. I'm going to call that number one of these days.

I'm going to reach your hand out to you. Say, would you pull me up now, could you? I don't wanna waste the life God gave me. And I don't think that it's too late to save me. It's not to relate Reason with me Let's reason together together Raisin with me Goosebumps just listening to that, the beautiful voice there of Sinead O'Connor. Jane Garvey asked her about saying things

that others weren't willing to talk about. You have said some very uncomfortable things about Ireland and about the church. And I know that you occasionally get frustrated, don't you, because you are a bit of a lone voice still. I mean, you're saying these things. You were saying them years ago. You were on American television tearing up that image of the Pope. And there's no doubt it didn't do a fat lot for your career, did it? Well, it did, insofar as, you know, it established me being me.

I mean, you know, I have a career being me, which not a lot of people do, do you know what I mean? An awful lot of people have to go to work and pretend to be somebody else. And you're absolutely happy that you were you. Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, like everyone, you know, I wish I was the Dalai Lama, but I'm not, so I embrace the fact that I'm not. But in terms of that stuff, being a lone voice,

I don't know that I would agree with that, but I think that perhaps the point of view that I was attacking it all from might have been an isolated point of view because my interest in terms of the church and that was really the misrepresentation of the Holy Spirit actually. And I

think in that regard to some extent certainly in the art world I might have been a bit of a lone voice. What do you mean by that the misrepresentation? Well what I mean is when you look at what happened in Ireland with the church and everything and why it's so important is because the church was such a huge part of Irish culture you know. But looking back on it you'd see that the

victims of abuse have now after an awful struggle obviously been heard you see that the corrupt priests have been heard and given very small jail sentences I might add and you see that the Vatican are very busy trying to be heard but there's one voice

to me that hasn't been heard at all or doesn't even get thought of in it, and that's the Holy Spirit. The actual thing that's supposed to be what the church is all about has been completely brought into nothing but disrepute, and nobody was standing for it. That's what bothered me, as well as wanting to stand for the victims. For example, I'm someone who really does believe

that there is a Holy Spirit, whatever you want to call it, and that mattered to Irish people that there was. I didn't want to necessarily it. And that mattered to Irish people that there was. I didn't want to necessarily get rid of Catholicism, but what I felt was that something had taken over Catholicism that didn't belong to Catholicism at all, it was bringing it into nothing but disrepute. And there was a lot of, at the time, this is 20-something years ago, a whole lot of rock stars, it was quite fashionable to be waving around your award,

thanking God for it. But then when it came to a pitched battle in the street, as I saw it, for the honour of God, without whom I wouldn't have had music and neither would any of the rest of us who wave our grammars around thanking God. The pitch Battle in the Street for the honour of that thing and there was no one there.

Tumbleweed. That's where I was coming from because I felt that that thing that gave artists so much should really get stood for. So much to unpick in that interview there Sinead O'Connor speaking to Jane Garvey back in 2013 what you're telling me now is the journalist and author Sinead Gleeson and the Irish Times journalist Una Mullally to talk about the life and legacy of Sinead O'Connor you know let me begin with you can you describe the reaction in Ireland to her death? I think it's quite profound

actually I think everybody who really followed Sinead O'Connor and connected to her and learned the lessons that she was teaching is devastated I think particularly for women for queer people for anybody who was against the kind of conservative squareness of Irish society. She was a beacon, you know, and she was a defiant person and she just really led as authentic a life as she could. So I think that that kind of connection is so deep. And so when somebody who really kind of offered an alternative moral compass to the very warped one that was spinning around the place in the 80s and 90s in Ireland, she was essential. void, I suppose, that has been left, I think, is only going to widen because everything that, you know, when you even when you listen to that now, when you listen to the lyrics in her music now, when you hear her voice, it's just landing so much harder, having already been so embedded

in our culture. Yeah. Sinead, let me bring in you here. I mean, she's clearly had a huge influence on a nation, but on a generation specifically when the music scene was very male dominated and you were a part of that very much so I mean myself and Una were music journalists a long time ago but I remember when when I was starting out and not as early as the 80s but growing up in the 80s and being obsessed with music and going to gigs and it was you know, the landscape was very male dominated. Sinead was in quite a lonely place, but she also did come from a place that is that Irish folk culture, that kind of Shan No singing.

And that's the thing about the voice is that it was rooted in rock and pop. And, you know, she wasn't afraid to do reggae. She wasn't afraid to kind of draw on that kind of the Celtic stuff that she felt deep in her bones. But I think she was a very singular figure, not just because there weren't many women like her, but because of the way she sounded, the things that she said, the way she used her platform, the way she looked.

Everything about her was very uncompromising. And I think the thing about Sinead is that there was no persona, there was no performative element of Sinead. That's exactly who she was. She always used the rooms and stages that she had to lift up other voices to elevate voices that get spoken over or not get included in the conversation and that's outside of the music and whereas you know she channeled all the things that mattered to her where it is that kind of spirituality or religion she was talking about or politics or

inequality or whatever it was all fed into the music and it's the mark of her as a songwriter that you can make that that not into polemic, you can make it into beautiful, gorgeous songs that stay with you without feeling that you're being bashed over the head with her views and her politics. The standout line for me from that clip we just played to you there was,

I have a career being me. And that's exactly what both of you were tapping into. You also mentioned style, Sinead. And I understand you also adopted a bit of the Sinead style. Yeah, I shaved my head in school and luckily for me, Nothing Compares to You came out the week after. We got an iconic video. I got into a lot of trouble.

But again, I think Sinead's doing that, I think, was about not wanting to conform, not wanting to be some sort of record company ingenue, not wanting to be what people wanted her to be and wanting people to focus on the work and what she was saying and what she was singing and not how she looked. So I think that was quite a calculated and brilliant move.

And again, just another part of her being transgressive and not allowing herself to be co-opted by people or industries around her. I understand you've both had the chance to meet her. Una, what were your impressions? Yeah, I've interviewed her a few times over the years. She's just always really sweet, you know, very tender, really just interested in talking about her work,

talking about her songwriting talking about music more broadly that's what she was about beyond her visions and thoughts on society and politics and the issues that we all contend with more generally so that was always my impression

I mean I used to try and make a point of getting to her soundchecks when she was playing in Dublin because seeing her process how fastidious she was um how she would you know go repeat over and over and over what other people would deem kind of small inconsequential sound issues um she was so uh focused on sounding sounding as she wanted to. And that was always so impressive for me. She was so commanding in those kinds of spaces.

And also just really funny, like a very, very hilarious person, you know, full of the crack in that way. And yeah, that kind of sweetness for her I suppose that one of the things that I always think is like she was such a huge figure in culture but she was also this like quite tiny person who sometimes seemed a little bit fragile but of course we know that her insistence on vulnerability was actually her power you, we have power all wrong, you know, and Sinead O'Connor's openness and her authenticity was that power and it gave other people power. You know, she was an empowering figure as well.

Sinead, your thoughts when you interacted with her? I met her a couple of times in a work context and the last time was a kind of more of a proper conversation. I got to see her play her last Irish dates actually in 2019 in a venue in Dublin I posted a clip on Twitter of her singing Nothing Compares to You and the crowd singing along and her genuinely genuinely moved by the reaction and the love because there had

been a lot of derision and criticism of Sinead from various people and I think sometimes she didn't feel that love at home and around the world but I was brought in to meet her afterwards backstage and she was standing beside her daughter Roisin who'd been singing with her on stage and as you said she's very tiny very smiley very quiet spoken not not you know the kind of antithesis of the the titan that we would see on stage but but very very polite and very sure of herself i think she was a very deep thinker as well i think she read voraciously um if you've read her her autobiography she was a brilliant writer on the page and not just in the songs and the lyrics. And at least we have that and we have the work to take with us as we kind of move forward and as we grieve. Because it's, I mean, the feeling in Ireland is very

despondent. It's actually been a very massive event. I think everyone's feeling very low about it. Interested in what you had to say about her not always feeling that love. I mean, Una, I think you've talked about the fact that she said the things that people didn't necessarily want to hear at the time, but in time, Irish society has caught up. Yeah, I think people were with her, you know,

from the get-go, like people who knew that this kind of lie of conservatism and performative holiness needed to be pierced. So, of course, people were with her from the get go. But I think because of how insane the media can be, and particularly in the aftermath of her really brave actions on Saturday Night Live, this kind of projection onto her that she was somehow, you know, mad

or something like that, the controversy that was generated from that, you know, we see time and time again how media goes after strong-willed women and she was no exception to that. I do think though that in recent years, you know, more than ever, in part because of her rememberings, in part because of Katherine Ferguson's excellent documentary Nothing Compares last year, she was really getting her flowers and you could see that she was, you know, enjoying that as well, you know, she was writing in the comments

section of the New York Times of her own interview or their own profile on her, she was in correspondence with different journalists who were reviewing the book and the documentary and stuff like that. So she was she was into that, you know, and she was enjoying that. And I think people were really, you know, delighted to finally be in a place where, you know,

this this repetitious evergreen thing that people constantly say Sinead was right. Sinead was right. And we know that. And it's not like she was rejected by Irish society. I think society and the media did her dirty all along. Much of that in an American context. Yes, you mentioned Saturday Night Live and that was when she ripped up a picture

of the Pope at the time. Sinead, let me end with you. Her faith journey was very important to her and no doubt it's played a role in her public grief when we talk about the loss of the horror of the Catholic Church and all the things it had historically inflicted on women, and Sinead had talked about mother and baby homes and Magdalene laundries and the cover-up of systemic abuse, but Sinead extricated herself from Catholicism

but never left that kind of urgent kind of hunt that she had for meaning, and I think that she was interested in Rastafarian culture, she became a Tridentine priest for a while, obviously converting to Islam. All of these things were about finding meaning and finding comfort.

And obviously we know that she struggled a lot in the latter years, understandably. And I think that thinking deeply and pondering religion and spirituality, not Catholicism, very distinctly spirituality, did provide a modicum of comfort in some ways to her. Thank you so much, Sinead Leeson and Una Mullally. They're both journalists sharing their thoughts on the passing of Sinead O'Connor.

Hayley on Twitter has done the same thing. She says, stopped in my tracks as the street musician played Nothing Compares to You This Morning. Stunning. Explaining Sinead O'Connor's story to my girls last night on the way to see Barbie felt bizarre and important. Thank you for your messages. Please do keep them. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Coming in. As part of this year's Edinburgh Festival, a major exhibition called Scottish Women Artists, 250 Years of Challenging Perception, opens tomorrow. As well as celebrating women artists and their contributions to the Scottish arts scene, they have also been creating a series of new artworks, both to show in and alongside the exhibition with various artists, including Sekai Machachi, who is going to join us as well.

And I'm also joined from Edinburgh by Celia Joycey, director of Dovecot Studios, where the exhibition is being held. Hello to you both. Hello. Good morning. Celia, let me start with you. It opens to the public tomorrow. In terms of the timing, why are we marking this now? Because we can.

It is an important time. Dovecot has been making... So we're unusual as a museum and gallery in that we both make art and show art, and we've got big gallery spaces, and we're working with a private collection that has actually got a larger range of Scottish women artists than in the National Galleries of Scotland,

and they've been willing to lend. And so we thought a fantastic opportunity to both allow us to have a platform to make new work, but also pick up on stories that are just so joyous and exciting to see work that is less familiar, but brilliant. And these are pieces of work with stories because the exhibition highlights in many ways the challenges faced by women artists.

Just explain to us what they were. So, well, in a world where there are more male artists, there are male critics, there are male collectors, male curators, there are all-male hanging committees, male teachers. It just means that there's a bias in the system and yet the exhibition points to examples from the 18th century of women who invariably needed privilege to be able to pursue an artistic career. But Catherine Read was a formidable artist, a portrait artist, and we actually have a print which just indicates how popular she was. She had royal patronage, and yet she doesn't appear in

those great surveys of art history that started to be published from the post-war period onwards. And then we have terrific stories of people who overcame those challenges, both as in creating a practice as illustrators. And one of the distinctive things about the exhibition is the mixed media. So women were not always able to be successful in traditional pathways. And so they found roots through illustration, through photography, through different media. And as a tapestry studio, it's great to show textiles in the same equality as painting. Sekai, your work is going to be on display. First of all, describe that work for us. Yeah, so I actually am fortunate enough to have multiple pieces in the exhibition across different sections of the show. I have photographic work, one titled A Hint of Blue,

which is in the sort of still lives interiors part of the exhibition. Another set, which are called Light and Deep Divine Sky, which are in the Scottish Landscapes part. And then I also have a beautiful tapestry that has been commissioned and woven at Dovecot Studios by Ben Himers who's one of their um their weavers and that's titled Lively Blue and they're all part of a sort of um a project titled The Divine Sky which I've been working on for a couple of years which is related to the colour blue and specifically my investigations into indigo. So yeah, it's nice to have my work across different sections of the exhibition showcasing the range of it. And your personal journey as a female artist, what's that been like? How have you navigated it?

For me, I went to art school at a time in Scotland where there's a lot of young women who are actually in the arts. So I was surrounded by many women and many people from different backgrounds within my art school. I was the only black person in my art school and a feature of my experience was more related to issues around race and racialisation rather than gender. So, yes, my experience... And can I ask you specifically to that? Has your experience as a black female artist been different to Scottish white female artists

in your environment? I believe so. And I think this exhibition really speaks to the sort of overcoming biases and highlighting the issues that we've had allows us to then even offer more opportunities for representation. So myself and several other artists

who are in the exhibition in the area around Scottish identities showcases the wide range of diverse identities within Scotland as well. And just so I'm clear, what are those key challenges that you feel that you've faced? There are just barriers in relation to race and racialisation that exist across many industries

and many institutions within this country. This comes from a legacy of colonialism, which we are continuing to experience the repercussions of. So, yeah, it's just the usual biases that we're all aware of. And Celia, on that, I understand that the exhibition really wants to underline the significance of work by female artists within Scotland's cultural history as well. How have you tried to do that?

So there are systems that are part of that. So the art school, Scotland has some of the world's greatest art schools. Glasgow School of Art, as we know, was formidable. It was founded and became co-educational in 1848, just a couple of years after it was founded, based on the South Kensington. But that led to it creating a group of the Glasgow girls, both people who worked in the design and decorative arts, but also painters, people such as Bessie McNichol, who has created the most stunning portrait of Hornell, which is in the exhibition. But the illustrators, I think, are gorgeous. The sort of work of Jesse King, who then created a community in Kirkcudbright.

So there were communities of people, but also artists such as Joan Eardley, who in the 20th century had a practice based in Glasgow, but then she went up on the east coast of Scotland to Catiline. And her work is ferocious and passionate. And it's very hard to see it outside of Scotland or private collections because she, her life was cut short by cancer and she was prominent in her time. But I think looking at the Scottish perspectives just shows how art schools, but also teachers created a platform for women to travel outside. So travel scholarships have been really important in some artists' careers.

Elizabeth Blackadder got to travel as soon as she graduated. And that was really important in her bringing other influences back into Scottish art, but also then in pushing her work into an international spectrum. And Sekai, I wonder which Scottish female artists have been influential for you? I've been fortunate enough to actually know one of my biggest influences quite well, Alberta Whittle, who, as you know, probably represented Scotland at the Venice Biennale last year. Obviously, Maude Salter as well.

For me, I focused quite a lot of my research when I was in art school on the intersections of blackness and gender. So I kind of looked a lot at artists who represented those areas and whose practices were multidisciplinary as well, like my own. And you mentioned the Venice Biennale and you have been selected to represent Zimbabwe in that in 2024. How are you feeling about that? I'm very overwhelmed, extremely honoured to have been chosen by the country of my birth to represent them in such an incredible space, the Venice Bean Alley. It's great to have this experience of dual identity and to have recognition from both parts of those identities.

Yeah. Well, I'm sure many people will look forward to seeing your work. And Celia, for you, as someone who is going through this work, curating it in many ways, is there a standout piece for you so there is I obviously the tapestry there is a tapestry that I have never seen before which Dovecott wove in 1987 with Elizabeth Blackadder and I didn't wasn't aware how many works we made in collaboration with her and it's the first work you see when you step into the exhibition. And it's of irises. And it is just so pure, but also so fresh and poignant, I think, because she died recently and perhaps is only now getting fresh attention. So her work is on show across

Edinburgh for the Edinburgh Festival in three different locations at Dove Cop, but also the Scottish Gallery and Royal Scottish Academy so if people are coming to Scotland it's a fantastic opportunity this summer to go on a journey of discovery to start finding these stories of work that they might see emotionally react to and then want to find out more and we we're showing it all online so if you want to visit the exhibition online you can also join us from any part of the world. And we put those tours on at different times to make them available and accessible

to as many people as possible. Wonderful. We wish you all the very best with that. And to you, Sakai, as well, with all of your work. That is Sakai Machachi and Celia Josie, both involved in that exhibition, Scottish Women Artists, 250 Years of Challenging Perception which opens tomorrow right on to something that so many of you have been sending messages in

about how many dates have you planned this week one maybe two how does three sound back to back on the same day date stacking is the latest trend being tried by single people to find love quickly the concept designed to save time by squeezing in several dates in the space of a few hours went viral on TikTok earlier this year when a woman documented her busy dating schedule. Now, it's not a totally original concept. Those of you who were single in the 90s might remember when speed dating was extremely popular. But think of it as a slightly slower down version. So can you really decide if you like someone whilst getting ready for the next date? A recent survey suggests it takes us 42 minutes and

29 seconds to decide if we want to see someone again. So is this a good use of dating time or does it as some critics say reduce people to commodities? Joining us on the program is the Sunday Times style writer Roisin Kelly, who decided to try out date stacking herself and has written a piece about it. And Johnny Cassell, a dating and lifestyle strategist. Welcome to the programme, both of you. Thank you. Hi. Hi. Oh, gosh, there are so many messages coming in about this. So where to start? But first of all, let's start with your journey. Why did you, Roisin, want to try it out in the first place?

So I saw it on TikTok and I thought it would be quite a fun experiment but at the same time I'm really busy I have a lot of evening plans because of work because of friends and to be honest I was just a bit bored of spending my evenings going on these dates that came to nothing that weren't particularly enjoyable so I just saw that and thought why not let's see how it goes putting three in one day. I'm getting asked questions about the practicalities of this. Vicky says,

I'm a romantic at heart, but I've had to resort to online dating. The experiences vary from the odd date with odd men, pictures of genitals sent unsolicited, and a highly developed detail scammer who left me devastated, but I'm still there plodding away.

What other option is there for a middle-aged single woman I want to know how Roisin gets enough dates to stack them good on her though I mean look I I I'm not a natural at apps either I I don't ideally want to meet someone that way however as many women will say it's a numbers game and you have to dedicate time to it I think there was a stat in my piece that most of us spend like an hour a day on dating apps and it is draining but if you want to convert into real life dates you have to put a bit of time in it's not ideal but it's just how it works and how did it work out for you um I let's just say I'm

still single um yeah it logistically it's. It's like when you're trying to arrange a meeting at work and you're organising other people's diaries. It was definitely a worthwhile experiment. Would I do it every week? Probably not. How many did you have in the day or the morning? I did three in one day. So one in the morning, a gym class and a coffee, followed by a coffee and a walk and then for a drink. The problem is if one person wants to push you back by half an hour or so, it ruins your whole schedule for the day. I can imagine. I can imagine. Johnny, your thoughts on this? I think, you know, I've got mixed views on it. I think it's a great way of desensitizing yourself to dating.

You know, I think there can be a lot of apprehension, anxiety around that. So, you know, in terms of the numbers game, I think that can really help. But the whole date stacking thing, like getting the free dates in before lunchtime or the afternoon, I think it's a bit crazy. We got to ask ourselves, where's that coming from? For me, I think it's coming from a place of desperation, anxiety. And I actually feel that when you do turn up to those dates, you may not be present. You may not be presenting the true version of yourself. I feel there's three or four paths that can lead to meeting someone.

One of them can be online. Another one could be at work. Another one could be a social life and then there's the spontaneous path as well where you know i mean every time you leave your house there's an opportunity to meet someone new so i think we've got to be more mindful of like our everyday environments can actually give us an opportunity to meet someone also i'm going to play devil's advocate john Johnny. There will be people listening saying, I've tried all of that, all of it, the whole list. It just doesn't work. And now it's been turned into a process. And Mark's got in touch to say, date stacking is old. I used a dating website 14 years ago to date 14 women in seven days. I ended up marrying the first

woman I met. Two kids later, we celebrate 15 years together and 10 years married next year. Thank you for that good news, Mark. But Roshan, it is catching on. I mean, we've got Mark there. He tried it years ago. Why is it catching on? Because people are busy. And also, you know, talking to people on apps all the time is draining.

Half of these conversations don't end up in a date for whatever reason. We end up with pen pals, someone who drops us a message when they feel like it. And to be honest, I personally don't see the difference. If I'm going to go on three dates in one week, what is the difference in going on them in one day? I don't think it affected my opinion on any of the men I met. Question to you then, Johnny, what is the difference? I just feel that there should be more effort in how you spend your time, like in your social hours. I think we can all do an audit on our lifestyle and get a better return on our time. And I think that's just a better way of doing things.

I mean, what sounds better? You met your partner on an app. But does that matter, though, how you met your partner ultimately? Ultimately, no. But I mean, it's quite motivational to get yourself out there and find that love story. You know, that movie moment. You could be-

You're romantic at heart, aren't you, Joey? I mean, that sounds dreamy, but it doesn't happen. This is an important point for my listener. He says, I've been off and on various apps for 10 years and it probably hasn't been good for my self-esteem or mental health. I think they're designed to gamify the dating process and making people forget that they're interacting with real human beings. It reduces the magic of potentially meeting someone to a numbers game. And whilst I met my current boyfriend through an app, if we ever broke up, I can't see myself going back on them. Your thoughts? Yeah, I think what we've learned about the online platforms, it works for a smaller percentage of people.

And when we come to realize that, then we're going to make more effort outside of them. You know, it's not a substitute. It's just an additional tool to add to the box. I mean, for me, the real online dating is social media because we're all on it. Right. So I think there needs to be more emphasis in that space and how well you're dressing up that window. Interesting. So you're still for the kind of online space, just not the apps. Absolutely. I mean, I think the correct way to look at it is you're a brand and that's your space to market your brand.

If you're not getting the right attention online, then maybe we need to look at changing the product. What is the product that you're selling to your audience? It's all marketing. Yeah. And just back to that point from our listener about the kind of impact on mental health roshan how did you feel when you were on those dates i mean a sense of stress um yeah look i'm i'm used to sort of running around everywhere having things tightly scheduled um but yeah it was slightly stressful i mean i put in the piece i did tell one of the guys that i was going on to another day it just sort of came out I know it just sort of came out did you like the guy um was there potential no no um so I did think might as well be honest um he didn't take it particularly well and I did feel a bit bad afterwards but then

I mean you know there's there's stats on how many conversations people are having at once on these apps you're not telling me that I was that guy's one you know hope for for love like and on that is it different for men then the way because you wrote your article and you received quite a bit of criticism didn't you uh yeah I got some really awful criticism and abuse actually and um interestingly you know there was that side of things but then there were some men saying you know what you're talking about I do this all the time or I have a friend who goes on eight dates a week you know there was that side of things but then there were some men saying you know what you're talking about I do this all the time or I have a friend who goes on eight dates a week you know and I had um men my age dming me on Instagram saying they don't see the big deal and they'd happily you know go be one of those three dates um so I think there's there's still that different

standard for women that I you know people came at me acting like it was really promiscuous and I got called the town bike like who even still says that I mean you know whereas had a man done it I don't think they would have got those comments and who was the criticism from um honestly middle-aged men um and some women a lot of women as well actually but I think it's a generational thing not necessarily a man woman thing So people my own age thought it was a great idea, say they do that quite regularly, didn't see the problem. Older people took it really, really badly. I think they just don't realise that the dating landscape is seriously different now. Will you be trying date stacking again?

I mean, never say never, but I won't be doing it on a weekly basis. Let's just say that much. On the subject of men, this message says, men just wash their face and rock up for a date. For women, there are so many social beauty norms to adhere to. Makeup, hair, blah, blah. Stacking those dates saves so much time. Someone in favour of what you might consider doing again.

And Ruth in Hackney says, I just do dog walk dates now. Always 45 minutes and opportunity to extend at the end if I want. I don't have to dress up and I have to walk the dog anyway. So two birds, one stone. Thank you very much, Ruth, for your message. I have to ask you, Johnny, I'm not going to pry about your dating life, but if you have a partner, how did you meet them? I'm out and about. You're out and about?

Yeah. Like, I mean, and that's like my biggest message is, you know, try to create a lifestyle that's attractive and, you know, live in that lifestyle. Meeting someone will be the byproduct of living that lifestyle. Right. So if you're in a place where, you know, you're a bit of a hermit and you're using these apps as a way to meet people, like you've got to have other things going on in your life are you saying it drains us of personality well i just think that we can you know it's just a bit of a lazy way of doing things you know um we're having a bit of a laugh about it in the green room it's just like well imagine you're just like date stacking like for about a month and then you know they ask you what are you what are your hobbies and interests yeah dating i mean what else you got going on i mean you know wellness is a big big

booming um thing at the moment right and it's healthy right i think that's a great place to meet someone i think like tap into wellness events stuff like that um you know look what's going on your local community look to find community. Look to find community. If you can find community and it doesn't work out with someone, you've always got your community to go back to and find someone else. On wellness and community, this message says, I met my partner whilst I was swimming in the sea here in Scotland after various non-starters on dating sites. My advice, enjoy your own company and get out there doing the activities you love. That is where you will meet someone who shares your joy.

On that note, thank you to both of you, Roisin and Johnny Cassell. Thank you for your time and all the best, Roisin, with your dating journey. Thank you. Now we turn our attention to the Women's World Cup. Are you following it? And if so, what are you wearing? My next guest will certainly be standing out in the crowds as she's been making her own fan memorabilia.

Professor Jean Williams is a football historian Next guest will certainly be standing out in the crowds as she's been making her own fan memorabilia. Professor Jean Williams is a football historian and author of A Game for Rough Girls, A History of Women's Football in Britain. She upcycles old items of clothing and turns them into beautiful creations which celebrate her favourite teams and players. And she joins me now from Sydney, Australia, the heart of the action. Jean, I understand this is your seventh World Cup. Yes, it is. I first went out to Los Angeles in 1999. So, yes, been seeing the growth of it ever since. Wonderful.

And you create what you call femorabilia. What do you mean by that? Yeah, it's myself and my colleague, Jackie McCassey, who's a lecturer in fashion at Liverpool John Moores. And what we do is in Jackie's case, she upcycled and recycled scarves with her colleague, Paul Robinson, for the women's Euros and created an iconic garment that fans wore up and down Wembley Way and my interpretation of that is slightly different in that I actually um customized my own old clothes uh in this case a lot of it is occasion wear that I've bought for you know christening's or weddings and you you kind of

wear it once or twice so um we've reinterpreted it and um I've brought it out to Australia and I'm wearing it at various matches so can you describe some of those pieces because I have had um I've seen a couple of pictures of them and they are extraordinary but it's really important to paint that picture for for our listeners yeah okay so um the coat that I have is in Serena We Trust. And it's really marking a moment where Serena Beigman, the current England coach, transformed the way that England were coached only about a year before the Women's Euros took place. She's the first coach that the FA have appointed with proven international experience for the women's team. And she'd won the women's Euros with the Netherlands on home soil.

And she replicated that again in England. So it's her first big World Cup tournament with England. And I wanted to mark that moment. So the coat is linen. I'm very much influenced by high fashion. So there's a collaboration going on at the moment between Jimmy Choo's and Timberland where they're using a lot of gold foil. So the lettering is done in gold foil. And the image on the back is Serena herself as a first class stamp with the letter first in the corner. And we're celebrating her as the European champion

going out to a Women's World Cup. This sounds worlds apart from your bog-standard football fan shirt. Is this an attempt to make football more chic or football attire more chic, rather? Yeah, absolutely. But it's also going back to the roots of women's football. So a lot of fans of women's football are actually quite recent maybe since 2019 or the women's euros and it's not anti-buying shirts

by any means but it's just been more mindful that actually a lot of those shirt manufacturers use fast fashion practices and we know that that disproportionately affects women particularly in the global south who manufacture these garments and so the idea of femorabilia is that it's female design female made upcycling and recycling and you don't have to spend huge amounts of money on a given shirt or to look uniform you can interpret your fandom in your own terms. And you've studied the history of women's football. So is this self-made culture something that you believe is specific to the women's game? It's not specific to the women's game. If you think actually wearing shirts is a relatively new fan fashion.

It began as replica shirts, began as items of children's wear actually in the in the 1970s and then teenagers squeezed into them and then we got the replica shirt industry particularly since the premiership but before then men and women fans say they were going to an FA Cup final would make their own rosette scarves. Women would make head to toe garments in their team's colours. So the idea of making is very popular at the moment, as we know, with a number of TV programmes. So it's really about using those older techniques to express fandom in a modern age. Is it taking on or are you the only one sporting these items? We're the only one sporting these items.

And it's a new project. Look, I'm not, it is a kind of prototype that we're developing. But for instance, at the first match, Ian Wright wore the scarf garment. Brilliant. Absolutely. Yeah, he absolutely loved it and um uh some of my coats I could have sold 40 or 50 times out in Australia um because women who are out at dinner I've been wearing them just around and circular key to go out for dinner at night and women who have got

no interest in football are saying I love your jacket and are now starting to do projects on fashion and fandom in football so yeah it's really starting to take off with fan groups as well. That's brilliant and England play Denmark tomorrow in their second game of the tournament what are you going to be wearing Jean? I'm going to be wearing In Serena We Trust. How are you? Yes, and I've done a T-shirt for Millie Bright because it's her first major senior tournament as captain. So we've done a T-shirt, Captain Brightside. And if your listeners can picture the Rosie the Riveter image from the 1940s,

we've sort of turned Millie Bright into Rosie the Riveter with her captain's armband and Captain Brightside around it on the image. So, yeah, look out for us. We'll be on time. I was going to say, if you are out and about watching the game, keep an eye out for that jacket and the rest of the garments that Jean has created. They sound wonderful. Thank you so much. And you sound like you're having a great time there.

Yeah, it's an absolute blast. It's great. We're having great fun. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. That is Professor Jean Williams, a football historian and author of A Game for Rough Girls,

A History of Women's Football in Britain. And there she is upcycling items and creating her own, not memorabilia, but femorabilia. Thank you so much for your time. And that is not the end of our football coverage, because on tomorrow's programme, we will be on air during the England-Denmark game. So join us for all the latest news from that match. We're going to be live at a watching party and also have analysis from the former Lionette Claire Rafferty

and also Maggie Murphy, CEO of Lewis Football Club. That is the first club to pay men and women the same. And on the subject of sport, England is also gearing up for its bid for this year's Netball World Cup, which kicks off tomorrow in Cape Town. The first time the competition's been held in Africa. You can watch the Netball World Cup, which runs until August the 6th over on BBC TV and the iPlayer. Listen to commentary on BBC Radio 5 Live, Sports Extra and BBC Sounds.

Plenty more on the website and app. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. You know the problem with technology, right? We've made it too complicated. I mean, it's filled with jargon and buzzwords and really it doesn't need to be. So I am going to fix it. Understand Tech and AI is a new series from BBC Radio 4 with me, Spencer Kelly. I've got together some great guests to help me explain everything from getting online to avoiding the artificial intelligence apocalypse. So I'll see you there.

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