Woman's Hour - Singer Ella Eyre; Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah; Sofie Hagen; Neonatal deaths & stillbirth disparities; Covid & Xmas plans

Episode Date: October 21, 2021

Over the summer it's been tempting to think that the pandemic is almost over. But last night, Health Secretary Savid Javid insisted that "life is not back to normal". 49,000 people tested positive for Covid-19 yesterday - levels we haven't seen since the end of last year - and he warned that they could hit 100,000 a day over winter. But despite all this, the government has decided not to implement its so-called Plan B - which would include mandatory mask wearing, working from home and vaccine passports. Instead its encouraging people to get their booster jabs, and advising people to make their own decisions on mask wearing and socialising more outside. But will the public, who've already seen one Christmas fall into oblivion, be willing to change their behaviour for a second winter?Campaigner Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah is raising awareness of asthma and the health problems that can be caused by air pollution. Last year her daughter, Ella, became the first person in Britain to have air pollution listed as the cause of death after an inquest. She died in 2013 aged nine. Now Rosamund is calling on Boris Johnson to “set an example for the whole world” with ambitious clear air goals. The Environment Bill was debated in the House of Commons yesterday (Wednesday). Rosamund discusses her work and the changes she wants to see.Lockdowns and working from home have changed how we dress but 'fat people don't have the luxury of wearing the dressed down look'. That's according to the activist and stand-up comedian Sofie Hagen who says that society dictates that people who are over-weight have to look like they are trying. She and Emma discuss the pressures she believes exist.Mortality rates remain exceptionally high for babies from ethnically diverse backgrounds despite overall rates of stillbirth and neonatal death rates having fallen. Neonatal death rates are 73% higher than those living in the least deprived areas. With Asian babies 60% higher than white babies, and 43% greater for babies of Black ethnicity. Emma is joined by Clea Harmer, Chief Executive of SANDS, and Professor of Perinatal & Paediatric Epidemiology, Elizabeth Draper part of the MBRRACE team who collect and analyse the numbers and rates of baby deaths in the UK.After undergoing vocal chord surgery, MOBO and Brit award-winning singer songwriter Ella Eyre is back on her first headline tour in six years. She reveals how she's had to learn how to sing again - and how the experience has inspired a new musical direction.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Harriet Baldwin Interviewed Guest: Professor Stephen Reicher Interviewed Guest: Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah Interviewed Guest: Sofie Hagen Interviewed Guest: Clea Harmer Interviewed Guest: Professor Elizabeth Draper Interviewed Guest: Ella Eyre

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and good morning. No new government restrictions in England. That's according to the Health Secretary, Sajid Javid, in that first government press conference since September yesterday. That's despite the rising numbers of COVID cases, reaching levels we haven't

seen since last year. And what I want to ask you today is, are you concerned about the next few weeks? Are you going to change your behaviour? Perhaps it had already changed. Maybe you're changing it back. Maybe you're switching things up. Tell me how. What about planning for Christmas or the festive period, which may fall to you. Have you already started to change things or think differently? Things, of course, are different depending on where you live in the UK. For instance, in Scotland, mask wearing rules haven't been relaxed, with teenagers, for instance, still mandated to wear masks in schools. In a moment, I'll talk to a former Conservative minister

and a member of a government behavioural science advice committee. But first, I'd like to hear from you, and you've already been getting in touch. I should say, anecdotally, and some studies have shown women have followed the rules more closely throughout stages of lockdown and the behavioural nudges we've been given or not from the government. This has become, of course, in mask wearing, the most apparent about who and who isn't wearing a mask and how they're wearing it something we have discussed together before but tell me where you are with this what you're doing perhaps regardless of what the government says or in spite of what the government may say

84844 is the number you need to text these are the subjects and the conversations going on across the country and people perhaps starting to think about this in a way they haven't for certainly some weeks, if not months, or perhaps it's never left your mind. On social media, you can get in touch with me at BBC Women's Hour or email me where you are with this through the Women's Hour website.

A message here, Margaret says, I can't understand why the government do nothing or are changing nothing. Already anxious and depressed, worse will come. Lots more people will die unnecessarily. Jean says, wear masks again in crowded places. Keep on washing your hands.

It should have become a permanent thing in case of new viruses in the future. This isn't a TV reality show. It is real. Susan says, a fool would not be worried. Some of you may not be. So much so, you may not feel like getting in touch. I'm also aware of that. Also on today's programme, the singer Ella Eyre on life post vocal cord surgery, what

that's like for somebody whose life is about their vocal cords. The comedian and activist Sophie Hagen on why she believes, and as she puts it, fat people are not allowed to dress casually and why one mother is taking on Boris Johnson. All of that to come. But over the summer, it has been tempting to think perhaps the pandemic is almost over. But last night, the Health Secretary, Sajid Javid, insisted, quote, that life is not back to normal. 49,000 people tested positive for COVID-19 yesterday,

levels we haven't seen since the end of last year. And Sajid Javid warned they could hit 100,000 a day over winter. But despite all of this, the government has decided not to implement its so-called Plan B, which would, just to remind you, include mandatory mask wearing, working from home, vaccine passports. Instead, it's encouraging people to get their booster jabs and advising people to make their own decisions on mask wearing and socialising more outside or with good ventilation. But will the public, who've already seen one Christmas fall into oblivion, be willing to change their behaviour again? Or perhaps it hasn't changed. Joining me now,

Harriet Baldwin, former Minister and Conservative MP for West Worcestershire. She's also a member of the Steering Committee for Covid Recovery. Good morning. Hello, Emma, how are you? Thank you for joining us today. And let me also just say who you're on with. We have Stephen Reicher, Professor of Social Psychology at the University of St Andrews, member of the Independent SAGE Committee and SPI-B, which gives behavioural science advice to the government on helping people stick with health interventions. Good morning, Stephen. Hello. Thanks for joining us, Stephen. To start with you, are the figures that we are hearing about

being projected and seeing at the moment, are they really that bad? I wanted to try and get some context. Well, we're up to about 300,000 cases a week. We have about one in 12 secondary school children who are infected. We're seeing hospitalisations rise and are around 7,000. We're seeing about 1,000 people, five plane loads of people dying every week. Now, in many ways, of course, that's not a scientific question. It's a moral question. What is too much? But that seems to me pretty high and especially high because I think this is eminently avoidable. You see, the whole point about the vaccine is the vaccine alone won't

allow us to surmount the pandemic. But what it does do is it puts us in such a good place that we need relatively mild measures in order to do so. We don't need the hard lockdowns of last year. If we had more protections for people and we had more support for people, then as other countries have shown, we could get on top of the Delta variant. But for failure to put in place those protections and provide that

support, the danger is that things will run out of control to a degree where we will need more severe restrictions. So the real choice between us is not between doing nothing and having lockdown, it's between having protections now and bringing things under control and doing nothing now and having lockdown in the long term. So in many ways, the do nothing party is in fact, in practice, the lockdown party. Well, hang on. So on that, just very brief answers to that before I bring Harriet in. Were you surprised the health secretary did not suggest, as it's been called, plan B yesterday? I was disappointed, but I wasn't surprised. Let's get to that in a moment.

Harriet, you've heard what Stephen has to say there, looking across the numbers and also what he feels would change the situation from going to a lockdown again. Why did the government, your party yesterday, effectively change nothing? There was a big change yesterday and that was around vaccinations and I think the point that I would highlight to your listeners compared to this time last year is that now 90% of the UK population have antibodies to Covid-19. That is a radically

different situation from this time a year ago. There was also an announcement about two new groundbreaking COVID antiviral drugs. And there was an announcement that if you are now due for your booster and you haven't yet heard and had an appointment, you can now contact 119 and book your booster in if it's been six months since the last one. We know that people over 50 and those with pre-existing conditions are the most vulnerable. They're the ones who should be coming forward for boosters when their six months has elapsed. So we need to give people that boost in terms of antibodies, those who are the most vulnerable. And as Stephen was saying, the cases at the moment are almost the majority, well, certainly more than 50% are in the teenage population. And of course, access to vaccinations for the 12 to 15 year olds is quite recent. And I would also encourage anyone who is eligible. I was going to say, it's not going very well. I would love to see more take up and roll out. There was an announcement yesterday about contact 119 and get your jab booked in.

So I think that that's an area where we can all agree that these vaccinations have been the key to unlocking and that we need to make sure that those who have not yet accepted the offer of a vaccination, and there are many millions in this country, also come forward and get vaccinated. I think that's the single most powerful thing that we can do as a country to protect our NHS. Stephen, why is vaccination

then not enough, according to what Harriet's just said? You know, masks and I imagine other measures that we could bring in, or go back to rather, social distancing, being in a well-ventilated space. From what Harriet seems to be saying, that's just around the edges. It's all about the vaccination. Well, I think the problem is, throughout this pandemic, we've talked in simple binaries, and in terms of simple, one-size-fits-all cures. Now, the vaccine, I don't want to underplay it.

It's a magnificent achievement. It's really important. It's put us in a whole new ballpark. But vaccines aren't perfect. They make a huge difference, but they're not perfect. So they cut infections, but still infection can happen. They reduce hospitalisations and deaths, but they don't get rid of them.

What's more, they're still the problem of long COVID. The harm of COVID isn't simply death. And of course, it leads to disruption. Well over 200,000 children missing school as a consequence. And so vaccine, as I say, it puts us in a new ballpark, but it's not a solution on its own. And in a sense, you squander the advantage of vaccines if you don't do those few extra things, which would actually get things under control. Sorry, go on, Stephen, very briefly, carry on. I want to make a really key point. One of the problems, I think, with this whole debate

is that we talk as if other measures are restrictions and restrictions is lockdown. So the business secretary said, we don't want to go back into lockdown. But what people are calling for is not restriction and not lockdown, it's protections and support, making sure spaces are well ventilated, making sure people can work from home. Those don't take away choice, those give people choice, and though they should be implemented alongside the vaccines. And with that package, that vaccine plus package, we can bring things under control. Harriet, then, why not? Stephen, let's go back to the person who has a vote on this,

if you like, in the seat of power, and it's her party, which is the party of government. Why not bring in these other things then? Mask wearing, make it mandatory. We've got a message here from Sue saying, if Sajid Javid says we should wear masks in public places, why on earth don't they make it mandatory. We've got a message here from Sue saying, if Sajid Javid says we should wear masks in public places, why on earth don't they make it mandatory, which would make many of us feel more secure?

If Christmas gets cancelled because of a lack of action now, there'll be a lot of anger. What do you say to that? I do think masks are marginally helpful. I do wear them inside in crowded places myself. And I was one of the early advocates that we should wear masks and you know clearly they're not anywhere near as powerful as the vaccination and I think that's why I go back to encouraging those who have not yet come forward for their vaccination

to make that call. Of course but that's a false debate Harriet that is a false debate there is a photo I want to draw our listeners attention to in a lot of the papers today being shared online. And it's a photo of a woman. We're on Women's Hour. It happens to be a woman. She happens to also be the former prime minister. She happens to be sitting on the green benches of the House of Commons. Her name is Theresa May. And she strikes a very lonely figure with a mask on, on your benches in the House of Commons. Do none of your fellow colleagues like wearing masks right now? Well, I personally, I do choose to wear one, but I think that I know

that my colleagues have all been vaccinated. I know that we have access to a test centre on the estate where we can get tested twice a week. So I feel that this vaccination has done more than anything else to reduce the risk of transmission, to reduce the risk of hospitalisation. And in an inside crowded place, I personally also choose to wear a mask. But do you think it's right? Let me ask you a different question then. That's your position and it's completely fair that you share that with us. But do you think it's right? I'm looking, Liam, Fox is sitting near her. I'm looking, people sitting cheek by jowl in the House of Commons. Yes, there's more distance now, but you are packed in there.

Is it right that the party of government is unmasked in public view at this time with numbers going up? Again, we're all following the guidance from the House of Commons authorities. And I think that is that they would prefer us to wear a mask. But, you know, not everyone does. Barely anyone does. All of my colleagues are responsible people and they're all following the test trace and isolate and they are also all vaccinated. Sorry, you didn't really answer my question. Is it right that the party of government are sitting there unmasked together, the majority of them unmasked, when the health secretary has stood up and has told the British public to wear masks?

Well, I feel very confident that they are all getting regularly tested, would isolate themselves if they were infectious, and it's a well-ventilated space. It's not great, though, is it? Well, as I say... Do as I do, not do as I do, just do as I say. If masks were a panacea, we would not have had the spike that we had last night. Sorry, you're setting it up as a false debate. It's helpful.

That's why the health secretary said it. I'm using his words. It's a false debate to say, I'm asking which is more effective. Of course, I'm not saying a mask is more effective than a vaccine. I'm asking for the example that you wish to set to others. As I say, personally, I do usually wear a mask. Stephen, in terms of the ability then of what people are going to choose and do, we also know it cannot just be laid at the feet of our MPs' doors as influential as they are,

and those images do paint a striking image, hence why I'm asking about them. How are we seeing or why are we seeing so many people, again, I'm going to do this anecdotally, having now taken masks off on public transport? I go on a train every single day and very few people are wearing them. Can I first of all say that I do think that Harriet's message is rather dangerous, because if you say to people, well, you're vaccinated, so it's less important to wear a mask, the danger is that you undo the good work of the mask, because the advantage that the vaccine confers upon you is then undermined by behaving in more risky ways. So I do think that your point about these things must go together, of course, we should get vaccinated, Harry, it's completely right on that. But that's not counterposed to

these other measures. And we shouldn't undermine the good work of the vaccine by behaving riskier in other ways. Now, in terms of behaviour, I mean, the first thing to say is we tend to notice violations, because they're more spectacular, than we notice people just doing the mundane thing. And when you look at the polling evidence, it shows that about 85% of people wear masks at least some of the time. They might not do it assiduously all the time, but people aren't anti-mask. The second point, and I think this is a really interesting one, is that whereas the polling always shows that the great majority of people do believe that we need more measures, in a sense they're ahead of the

government on that, at the same time we believe that others aren't doing those things. It's a process called pluralistic ignorance in psychology, and I was talking to a colleague who's got some data on this, that people are doing things, they think that other people aren't doing things. And once they begin to believe that other people aren't doing things, it undermines their own commitment. They begin to think, well, what's the point if nobody else is doing it? Or why should I do it if the norm goes against it? So I think it's really important to recreate that sense of community and communal responsibility that is so important. And I think that sense of communal responsibility is especially important in terms of mask wearing, because yes, it might be my choice as to whether I wear a mask or not. But if I don't wear a mask,

then I make that space dangerous for people, especially vulnerable people, and I take choice away from them. And to me, creating a society in which all can participate, including the most vulnerable, is really important. And that's why I think there's a communal responsibility and a strong argument for a mandate to make sure that we wear masks, that we keep ourselves and our communities safe, and everyone can participate in public. We will see where this goes.

Stephen Reiter, thank you very much. Professor of Social Psychology at the University of St Andrews, also member of Independent SAGE and SPI-B. Harriet Baldwin, thank you for your time. Former Minister and Conservative MP there. There was also a line in reports yesterday from Kwasi Kwarteng, the Business Secretary, who believes Christmas parties will still be on and that he's thinking he will still be going to one.

Of course, you may be feeling entirely differently about this, depending, of course, how this goes as well over the next few weeks and months. Keep your messages coming in to us and tell us where you are with this. But now to a pop star. Ella signed to a new label, released a slew of new music, and undergone vocal cord surgery

and currently embarking on her first headline tour in six years. And I believe that's where you're joining me from, your latest tour stop in Newcastle. Hello again, Ella. Hello, hi. It's lovely to speak to you again. It is. And a lot has happened. And it's your first tour post lockdown. Is that right? My first tour in a long, long time. Yeah, it's very surreal, but it's just so lovely to be back. It really is. Well, I bet.

And then also to have that, I mean, what we've just been talking about, to have that energy of people around you, especially after the times that we've been going through. Absolutely. I think that's it. Like I bring that up in the set, actually, because there's a song of mine from my first album called Together. And obviously, originally, that was about a relationship. But say that like it's got a whole new meaning to me

now because you know after 18 months being locked down not being able to perform not being able to see the audiences and share these moments to have everyone in a room together to be selling shows out and to just be able to dance and sing and enjoy the night is just feels so amazing to be able to do that again especially when there was a point where we probably thought that that wasn't going to be able to happen yes well and also you know something people very much want to continue uh in light of our previous conversation i know that in your life though and also during this time of of lockdown and the pandemic you had to go through this surgery that i mentioned yeah absolutely it was a very scary thing for me it was something that i knew that i needed to do, actually. So in a sort of positive note,

it meant that I was able to take six months out of my time to recover properly. And I kept pushing it back, pushing it back because I didn't want to take six months out. Obviously, I was only doing myself more damage and putting myself in a more precarious situation. So it meant that I had to take six months out. It was really painful, not physically, but just mentally. Tedious rehab where I wasn't allowed to speak for a full month. And then after that, I was allowed to do... You couldn't speak?

No, I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone for a whole month. I don't know what I would do. I mean, I taught for a living, but that would be very hard. It was great practice because it's not something I've ever been able to do very well anyway. Were you just writing notes to people and text? I had an app and so I had an app where I could speak or type into it and it would speak for me.

And I just got a dog at the time as well. And I'd done a soundboard so I could like, I'd recorded my voice saying sit and lie down and Iggy, come here. Oh, that's clever. Very clever. I mean, on a serious note, it must have been terrifying to know if your voice was going to come back in terms of your singing voice. Because I understand quite a few singers have had this sort of operation yeah I mean it is not many people really talk about it and I guess it is a bit of a taboo so you obviously do feel like that is something that could happen and it is something that could happen but I had the most amazing surgeon who was recommended to me by everybody and he is just amazing kept me very calm and surrounded me with the best team for the post-op as well. And it just meant that I just had to have complete faith in him,

complete faith in myself, and eventually we got there in the end. And how is your voice, your singing voice now? I wouldn't say that it's the best right now because I've just finished three shows in a row. It's my first day off since we started the tour. So it's definitely due a day off today but it's it's amazing you know I think um I've spent so long being quite nervous about my voice and losing it and not knowing whether I was going to get through the show or whether it was going to sound great and now I just have complete faith um and it's just it's a real I think it's taken live shows

for me to a whole new level because it means that I can just really enjoy it and not be worrying about that now well talking about finding your voice in a different way I mentioned you changed label you've been in this industry since you were really young how important has it been for you to to do that and to perhaps take back some control? I guess you know as you get older you really do learn a lot more about yourself and you know I started at a really young. I was 16 when I first got my managers and I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I'd never done it before. And I think by the time that I signed to my next label, I'd sort of done all that. So I knew what I was looking for. I knew what I wanted. I was a lot more sure in myself. And I realised, you know, this is a really tricky business to survive in. And it's

about who you surround yourself with. And I realised that know I was I had two male managers who were lovely but as a woman as a young girl I really needed to surround myself with women that you know can understand how I might be feeling a situation you know I think it's really important to for to have people around you that can understand you and your psyche and what's going on um to help get the best out of you really. And because I was going to say that that whole thing as well of singing about and writing about what you want and you feel is important because that's you know it's going to be there for a long time isn't it? Absolutely and I think that's another thing like as I get older and I realize that this music goes online and it stays there forever I want to take my time and I want to get it right you know I don't just want to be like searching for the hit

that goes out next week and then lasts for two weeks or whatever. You know, it's about music that lasts and music that I want to listen to when I'm, you know, retired. Well, you were speaking on YouTube as part of a series, I believe that was sponsored by a dating app, and you revealed that an ex-boyfriend broke up with you because you earned more than him. I mean, is that good fodder for another track?

Oh, God, maybe. I guess there was quite a few fodder from that relationship. But I think it wasn't necessarily specifically because of that, but I think there was definitely a dynamic in the relationship that was quite difficult. And I think for some people, that's something that's not something that they're able to do. And that's just something I had to accept. It's just interesting to hear, having gone into the music industry so young and as a woman, you know, what the responses have been like, I suppose, around you and how it's changed your life,

whether that's romantic or your social life. I know you've talked about missing your friends' 18th and 21st birthday parties as well because you were busy working. Yeah, pretty much, yeah. I do really feel like I'm living my teenage life now because I'm able to, you know, I'm able to enjoy myself a little bit more, see friends a lot more and take the time off a little bit more. But it is a tricky one to navigate and I have really enjoyed my time so far in the music industry

and I don't intend on quitting any time soon. Well, that's very good to hear. But I love the fact that we nearly didn't have you as a singer apparently didn't know this you were going to be a swimmer is that right I don't know if I was going to be a swimmer I had to quit before it was too late but um I was yeah I actually did start out as a competitive swimmer and I was competing and I was doing like four hours a day training two in the morning and training after school and my mum would be there at the weekends cheering me on outside of the pool um but I I got really bad ear infections and so I wasn't able to train as much and then my times got slower and then eventually you know I realized I was a creative brain anyway so I think there's

only so much swimming up and down a pool I could have done really you realized you needed to get it out in a different way and I can't sing in a pool no belt I mean you could have done you could have been and that would have been added a whole other level to it and I mean on that point though of course you know sports it's huge importance for mental health as well as how you feel about yourself and I know that you've spoken out about you know women and girls in particular feeling better about their bodies in this age of Instagram? Oh, my word, yeah. And I think it's a bit of an impossible task, really,

because it only seems, the giant just seems to be getting bigger. And I think it's just finding balance for yourself and making sure that you're just comfortable within your own boundaries. I think, like, when Instagram first started, it was a really fun app to use and you were sharing things and then obviously it's become very monetised I think like when Instagram first started, it was a really fun app to use and you were sharing things. And then obviously it's become very monetized and, you know, used for career purposes. And I think that's great. It's really lovely to be able to communicate with my fan base and I use it in that way.

But I think there was a line that blurred for me for a while. And I think it was just really important for me to take a step back and realize what it was about myself and my personal life that I want to give and you know I think it's important to keep some mystery and keep some stuff for yourself and like I said create balance well we're looking forward to hearing the new music any hints what's it about um I don't know if I could give you any hints in a succinct way but it definitely really feels like I'm taking this new lease of life this new voice and making the most of it I think it's something that I've always wanted to do um is to to make music that really shows off my voice um and presents it in a in a much more forward light well I love your voice as do so many others I hope you'll come back and see me in the studio and sing for us

again it would be absolutely joyous. Keep going. Good luck. Enjoy Newcastle. Ella, thank you so much for coming to talk to us there. Well, you've been getting in touch throughout our conversation there. And of course, she's on tour, Ella, with people coming to see her,

hoping to have a good time. And you're getting in touch about wanting, obviously, that to continue, but also how you're feeling about the latest figures with regards to COVID and government policy.

We've got a message here saying, can't believe how few people of all ages on buses, trains and in stores do not wear masks. Very suspicious of why government is now not acting. What about all the thousands from around the world coming to Glasgow? It's Geoff speaking there, listening in Wigan. Good morning to you, talking ahead of COP26. Well, actually, that brings me to my next guest, because my next guest is on a mission to change the Prime Minister's mind about the air that we breathe. Describing the high levels of pollution in the air as a pandemic, Rosamund Adu Kisidebra has written to Boris Johnson ahead of

that Global Climate Summit in Glasgow, COP26, urging him to commit to World Health Organisation targets on poisonous particles. Her driving force, the memory of her daughter, Ella, who became the first person in Britain to have air pollution listed as the cause of death after an inquest last year. Ella died just nine, age nine, in 2013 from severe asthma. Rosamund joins me now in the studio. Good morning. Morning. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for coming in. And I thought we would start with what you're doing or trying to do with regards to the prime minister.

We've been talking about policy this morning and influencing it and how things can or cannot change. What do you want to see change? What are you asking him for? I'm asking him to intervene. It's a very emotional morning for me because there was a vote yesterday and we lost basically 307 to 185 is to get particulate matter into the environment bill. And I knew we were going to lose. I don't like losing. I knew we were going to lose because he has a majority of 80. But this is so, so important. Why am I passionate about it? Okay, there is the memory of my daughter, but also from March 23rd to the 4th of July last year, no child died in this country from asthma. And that was during the first lockdown. And that gave me a message. The air was cleaner and no child died. I'm on the ticking time bomb, by the way. Rebecca Powell, thank you, Rebecca, for listening. But you need to go further.

You're talking about the environment minister? Absolutely. And by the way, none of this is personal. Rebecca knows me and she knows this is not personal at all. My concern is the particulate matter that the coroner said they need to tackle is going out to a consultation. And my message to Rebecca and George Eustice and the prime minister is if we wait to October 2022, up to 24 children would have died from asthma in the United Kingdom. And I do not find that acceptable. And my children looked at me yesterday when we lost the vote and said, what are you going to do now? I don't know. I have appealed to the Prime Minister. I would like him to meet me with Sir Stephen Holgate, who was the expert witness in my daughter's case, but he's also the government's clean air champion. I was with Stephen Holgate

very recently. We both spoke at a conference and he tells me this matter is a public health emergency and I need to press on. So although I feel a bit defeated this morning and sorry, I've always looked forward to seeing you, but I feel a bit defeated this morning. It was a bruising encounter. But there are many MPs who support me, Sir Bob Neill yesterday from Bromley, just down the road, he actually said for a coroner to issue a prevention of future death report, a coroner would not do that likely. The verdict came in in December 2020. It took him until April. That's four months he had to consider it. This is a matter of urgency. In areas, you know, my message to the health secretary, in areas of high air pollution, there is more COVID deaths. The air needs to be cleaner. We can wear masks, we can social distance, we can have vaccine. But as long as the air

continues to be filthy, this virus is going to still continue. Let me just break in there for people who aren't aware of what you're talking about with regards to the defeat. Environmental campaigners across the board have expressed disappointment after the government confirmed it would reject almost all changes made to the Environment Bill by the House of Lords. That's what you're talking about. It wasn't just, of course, those changes weren't just about air. There was also greater protection for ancient woodland, a legal duty on water companies, for instance, to reduce sewage damage to rivers.

And what the government said is it will be bringing forward its own changes to the bill to demonstrate, quote, global leadership before the COP26 conference in Glasgow. You're shaking your head. I'm going to read to you what we got from the government who have been informed of our interview this morning. They say, air pollution has reduced significantly since 2010 at a national level. Emissions of fine particulate matter have fallen by 11%, while emissions of nitrogen oxides are at their lowest

level since records began to continue to drive forward tangible and long-lasting improvements to air quality, we are committed to setting stretching and ambitious targets on air quality through our Environment Bill. Your head is in your hands. That is the comment from the government. What would you like to say to that? There is a reason why WHO have updated their guidelines. There is no such thing as a safe limit. Worldwide, one in five people die prematurely due to air pollution, and the WHO have now tightened the guidelines. If our air is so clean and it's all so wonderful, why do we not implement the new WHO guidelines now? We have nothing to fear. We're going to COP26. We're meant to be world leaders.

I want the government to show the rest of the world this is the way forward. Even United Nations now have committed to the healthy environment, which does include clean air. We are still a little bit far away from turning clean air into a human right, which it should be. So I appeal to the prime minister again. You've written him a letter. This is the second time and I am very grateful. He did respond to my first letter. Like I said, this is nothing personal.

He knows what is at stake. He was the mayor of London when my late daughter passed away. So he knows about this case. I have written to him again to appeal to him, to get his MPs to vote for this. And I accept the environment bill is huge and so many things went through. But you can understand for me, it's all about air quality. It's linked to biodiversity, global warming, acid rain. So what I say to people is, if we clean up the air, then part of the issue with climate change is going to be resolved.

If we don't clean up the air, climate change is never going to be resolved. And that's why I am passionate about it. And I'm not going to stop talking about it. No. Some of our listeners will also know you from the fact that you came third on the Woman's Hour Power List in 2020. I wasn't here then, but I was a keen listener. You are a formidable campaigner, if I may say that. Oh, thank you. In the sense of your drive, your passion, of course, your command of the facts.

But you have been put there in a, you know, in a very terrible reason. And that is obviously a huge driving force for you. And I just wondered how you're doing in all of this, because you've obviously got a lot of spirit and strength, but it must also get tiring or you tell me. Ella would have been 17 now we've got Christmas coming Emma um it's not going to be great is it next year is a major milestone she would have turned 18 I goodness me I don't know yet how we're going to cope and deal with that as a family my friends will come out and support us ever um to say I miss her every day is um is an understatement when I look at my children's faces I see hair in them because they all really look look alike and they're doing so well and I'm I am incredibly proud of them how old are they now they they are 14 there you go

you've managed to get that out of me people ask me all the time and the only reason why I don't say is they've been through the worst trauma ever they were right there when she died in front of them and i try and protect them so there's no secret or anything i just need them to try and get on with what they're getting on they're going to come um to cop with me because i want them to see the enormity and i want them to know that their sister didn't die in vain and she suffered dreadfully. She sort of suffocated really in her own mucus for 28 months and those poor children had to sit there and well not sit there, they actually helped me. You know, lots of times when Ella was collapsing, they would rub her back, they would encourage her

to breathe and I thought they'd been through enough and that's why I don't put them in front of the media there is no other other reason but they're going to be at COP so we can talk about them and that's the decision they have made as well to to come they could stay behind but they actually want want to come and they know so for example they take covid so seriously and that is because what we've been through and it's been very hard this past 18 months watching people struggle to breathe like she did it's been completely um heartbreaking and stephen holgate was right ella is the canary in the coal mine and if we go back to what happened to her, there was a doctor, one of her doctors rang me last March and said to me, what would you say if I said to you,

there are lots of people in hospital who are struggling to breathe like your daughter? I sort of chuckled, not because I thought it was funny. I sort of said, you will never be able to cope because she used to shut down a whole A&E. So I just couldn't imagine how doctors could manage a hundred, apparently yesterday, 8000 people in hospital, obviously with varying degrees of COVID. And the unimaginable has happened. I'm really, really sad. And my heart goes out to, you know, the 139,000 people and their families that they've had to go through, sadly, something similar because air pollution and COVID, you know, they're both pandemics, you know, both. It's a tough time for us to be in right now, but we have to remain hopeful.

I have to believe eventually the prime minister will see this is what the British public want. They contributed to Ella's inquest. You know, we didn't have money. They funded it. And this is ultimately what they want. Sir Stephen Holgate and I, I will repeat again, we will commit to a public health campaign to educate people about air pollution. I believe the country is ready for it. So I beg again, could the Prime Minister

and his ministers reconsider this matter right now, please? Rosamund Adu Kisidebra, thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. Messages also coming in with regards to this about the fight for clean air and how important it is and we're also getting many messages along these lines from Emma who's written in saying the minister told us this morning to go and get our booster vaccine I'm over 50 with health issues the website doesn't let you book and I have to say we've got quite a few saying

you're trying to book booster jabs if that's the strategy at the moment and you're struggling so I wanted to try and reflect that in our broadcast this morning with what you're getting in touch to say. Please keep your messages coming in. We're all the better for hearing your experiences. Now, my next guest has a very clear thought about something else entirely. As she puts it, fat people do not have the luxury of not making an effort with their clothes. That's according to Sophie Hagen, activist, stand-up comedian and author of Happy Fat. She says that society dictates that people who are overweight have to look like they are trying. Lockdowns, working from home, have changed how some dress. I'm very aware that some of you cannot work from home.

I've got quite a few messages pointing that out. And that many, for instance, are going braless or wearing more casual clothes to work, but it is a look that only the thin, she thinks, can pull off. Sophie Hagen, good morning. Good morning. Here you go. That's your view. I hope I've characterised it. I'd like you to make it better than, the point better than me. But tell me more why you think this. It's my personal opinion based on science and studies, which is where I base most of my thoughts and feelings on. It's commonly known that the sort of stereotypes that adhere to fatness, you know, being lazy, sloppy, slow, unproductive, all of these sort of very negative connotations. And if you go out wearing, you know, just tracksuit bottoms, no makeup, an oversized t-shirt, the stereotypes are sort of accentuated in that way, where if you are a thin, blonde, white woman

wearing the same thing, that is considered, you know, fashionable and trendy, like, oh, she doesn't even care. She's so cool. But you can't do that if you're fat. And have you had experience of that of anybody talking to you or any of your friends, where you where you know that in terms of personal experience, or this is something that you've heard from people and they've shared with you? I don't think it's something that you necessarily would experience, you know, face to face, like with most systemic oppression, it's not always a case of someone walking up to you and saying, you are wearing this, so you are lazy. A lot of this comes down to, you know, stuff like

being paid less, getting fewer job opportunities, just a general way of how you are being treated, which is something that's very hard to compare to other people because you can only have your own life experience. So it's hard to pin down a specific moment where that has happened. Are you saying then that you would like for those perceptions, of course you are, to change, but are you saying that it's almost a right to be able to not make an effort? That's what you're kind of talking about here? Or what do you see as the change? I mean, the change is large, right? Like it's a it's a huge systemic societal change that needs to be be happening, because it's not just about, you know, if only fat people could not wear makeup, everything would be fine that's not

obviously not the case uh it's a huge uh a huge societal shift we need in terms of how we see fat people and how we treat fat people uh and in turn that also means how we treat lots of marginalized people because this is not something that just affects fat people it's uh based on disabilities race all of the other things. And do you think this has come into view more because of the pandemic, because people perhaps have been, you know, slobbing out a bit more? And, you know, you're saying here that you don't feel fat people have the same permission. I mean, personally, I've worn pyjamas now for a year and a half. And I've I've remembered how it's like I've realized, oh, yeah, you can be comfortable.

And now I have more time every day to do work or whatever it is that I want. And the idea of going back into the real world and having to wear proper real clothes and makeup and all of those things just makes me realise how much time I've spent in the past. Just because I'm fully aware that if I didn't do that and I went to have a meeting with some important person, that could affect it because I would essentially be sending the message that, oh, I'm lazy and unreliable. So don't hire me for a thing. I mean, of course, somebody who who didn't have issues perhaps with their weight or was thin in that respect, for some people that would mean something else, but they would say perhaps they also have to make an effort.

That's always what's expected when you're going for a job interview or regardless. Definitely. I mean, the patriarchy is not letting anyone go, right? Well, men also sometimes feel that they perhaps have to wear a suit and like wearing a suit, I suppose. And that happens on every stage of, you know, whatever corporate ladder they have, the more you're sort of allowed to do. And the less you have, the more you have to make up for it in some other way. And the thing that you said before, and I know you're a comedian as well, and I think this is something just to pause on,

is that actually the dishevelled look can take a lot of effort sometimes, can't it? In the sense of it could also be quite expensive. You know, there is a whole thing attached to that, isn't there? I think there is. I asked a friend of mine ages ago, I said to her, and she's very thin, and I said to her, oh, I think I'm just going to try and go without makeup. And she said, oh, yeah, there's no makeup look, of course.

What you need to do is you have to buy a foundation and then you have to buy this powder. And apparently it's a thing and i i'm so it confuses me so much but i'm also uh from denmark where the the natural look in in quotes yeah is is the the trendy thing the more you look like you're trying the the sort of less trendy you are and that's but but when you talk about trendy that is a thin term you know if i yeah if i wanted to buy trendy clothes i couldn't because it doesn't go up to a size more than 12 or 16 or whatever in the best case scenario so being trendy and fashionable just isn't isn't the thing for fat people because when we go to buy clothes, it all has butterflies and flowers and peplum waste.

And it's, you know, if you ever look at lingerie or nightwear for fat people, it's all Disney and frilly and, gee, it's Sunday. Whatever. Like, you can't get anything sexy or trendy for fat people. They just don't want us to be. You know you're heading back to childhood if your pants say the name of the day the weekday on don't i used to have those um i'm i can see you you're joining us on video call and you're wearing black actually today but has it got any better uh in terms of the fashion side of

things i'd say yes and no uh if you'd asked me two years ago, I would have said yes, because there were so many indie shops opening up where fat people were creating basically their own clothes and selling them. But the pandemic has been quite hard on a lot of those shops. And there's a brand like Donald Stanley, which is incredible. And they do all sizes, which means literally all sizes, not the thin fashion brand version of all sizes, meaning up to a size 22. They do all sizes. And they're at the moment struggling because, you know, the pandemic hasn't been kind on small businesses. Thank you, government. It's been a tough time. Well, I mean, it's obviously affecting the world in different ways.

And other brands are available, I will say, at this point, being here on the BBC. Do you think, though, having talked about this, because it's something that some people will have felt but perhaps never heard anybody talk about. And I know you have talked about this as well elsewhere. Do you think that helps? Do you think that's given some people that permission they feel they need to wear what they want, essentially? Yeah, and you're right, because a lot of people haven't even heard anyone say this. I think the first step is just to say it out loud to make people realise that, oh, actually, you're allowed to, you know, if you can afford it and if you can find the clothes, it is a possibility to wear clothing that you thought you weren't, you know, you can wear vertical, horizontal stripes and you can wear things that isn't black and you can wear crop tops and short shorts and you can wear all of this. But

that's more about a personal individual situation where I would love for people to feel empowered enough to, you know, just not care about the rules. But it's still a fact that that will affect you in the way that society looks at you, because society doesn't change just because you love yourself. No, but I suppose if you know, hopefully other people feeling the same or at least talking about it, you can feel a bit better, as you say, more empowered within yourself. Sophie Hagen, thank you very much for coming to talk to us today. Activist, stand-up comedian and author of Happy Fat.

Messages still coming in, again, about the booster programme, because I've been talking about your response to what the government's relying on right now with regards to COVID. And it's all about, the majority of that message yesterday is about going to get your jab, your second jab if you haven't, your first jab if you haven't, and also a booster if you're eligible. One here saying, my friend who has cystic fibrosis followed all the rules, had her jabs when she was invited, but currently cannot get a booster despite being at a higher risk. This morning, she's been going round and round in circles via the NHS website,

which claims she's not eligible. Phone the 119 number who has said you can't book a booster jab via this service and her GP has said she could try a walk-in clinic. This is a shambles. Well, there's been more advice about some of those places that you can go and get jabs in from the health minister. This morning was talking specifically, I believe, about care homes. That was on the Today programme earlier today.

But, of course, this is a theme that I'm just trying to reflect from some of the messages that we are getting. Well, we're keeping with health, but with a very different area. Just before our next discussion, I wanted to say it could be very difficult for some listeners to tune in and stay with us for this who have experienced the loss of a baby. So I should say this is your chance to turn the radio down if you feel you need to. Despite overall rates of stillbirth and neonatal death in this country having fallen overall,

new data shows mortality rates remain exceptionally high for babies from ethnically diverse backgrounds with neonatal death rates among Asian babies 60% higher than white babies and 43% greater for babies of a black ethnicity. I'm joined now by Clare Harmer, Chief Executive of SANS, Stillbirth and Neonatal Death Society, and Professor of Perinatal and Paediatric Epidemiology, Elizabeth Draper at Leicester University and part of the Embrace team who collect and analyse these numbers and the rates of baby deaths in the UK. A warm welcome to both of you. Claire, if I could start with you. Why do you think these disparities still remain

when the overall rates have dropped? I think that's a really, really good question, actually, and one that we don't really know the answer to. We know that there are these disparities, and I think, although really good news that the overall figure has dropped, the fact that we haven't seen the same drop for the black and black British and Asian and Asian British babies is really worrying

and clearly unjust. And I think we need to understand why there is this gap. And when we have that information, we can then do something about it. I mean, what we know at the moment, and we estimated that if the stillbirth and neonatal death rates for black and Asian babies had been the same as for white babies, 432 fewer babies would have died in 2019 in England and Wales. And each one of those babies' deaths is a family, friends, devastated, starting on a bereavement journey that they hadn't expected

and didn't deserve to be on. And I think we do need to understand why. And that's why we are asking for the Embrace Confidential Inquiry into the Asian and Asian British babies, because this will help us understand more behind these figures and then actually work out what what needs to be done. And in terms of that picture as to why we are in this position and why we've got these numbers, Elizabeth, it's a complex picture, isn't it? Yes, it's a very complex picture. And in previous of our reports, we've looked individually at ethnicity and deprivation to see the individual effects of those factors. But in this report, we decided to look at the factors in a more multidimensional way. So we were looking at the effects of ethnicity,

deprivation and maternal age to see which specific parts of the population were affected the most. And if you look broadly at the stillbirth rates for the black and Asian populations and look at the least deprived group within the Asian and black populations, their rates of stillbirth are equal or higher than the rates of the most deprived white populations. And that is a shocking finding, the fact that even the most deprived white populations have a slightly lower stillbirth rate than in the Asian and black populations. And that is something that we desperately need to do some work to try and investigate why that is and to set up interventions to try and reduce the stillbirth rate for these families. We've got a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care, which gave us this, that said, we are committed to levelling up health and tackling disparities in maternity care alongside £95 million for the workforce. The NHS is investing £7 million to tackle maternity inequalities and is working towards ensuring at least 75% of pregnant black, Asian and minority ethnic women are cared for by the same midwives during and after pregnancy by 2024.

It is a complex picture, Claire, but when you hear Elizabeth talk there about initiatives and action, what do you see as key amongst them? I mean, there are lots of things that are being done at the moment. And yes, it is really important that it's an area of focus. I think what we do know is that these confidential inquiries that Embrace does focuses in on these cases where babies have died. And when they take a particular area of focus, and in the past they've looked at babies at the end of pregnancy, who died during labour, for instance, they've been able, by really analysing the data, to identify the sort of steps that need to be taken.

And these have informed the changes that the NHS have put in place. And we have seen a drop in the babies dying in this particular group. So what needs to happen is this particular focus and this particular analysis for not just Black and Black British babies, and there is a confidential inquiry going on for them, but also for Asian and Asian British babies. And if we have this real focus on the cases, understanding all of the factors that have contributed to the baby's death, we can then identify what else needs to happen

to make sure that these babies' lives can be saved. Because it's unjust, it's not fair that we've got groups of babies that we can identify and we're not making the effort to understand what needs to be done to help and to save their lives. Claire Harmer, thank you very much, Chief Executive of SANS. Final, very brief word, Elizabeth, to you. What is your key hope here? Well, I totally agree with Cleo. We have started the confidential inquiry into black mothers who have suffered the care pathway for these mothers and they look to see what the quality of care was provided for these mothers and whether they've had any

particular issues with access or communication and look across from the point at which they touch the services to the point at which we have reviewed the cases to see whether there's any issues that have been identified. What we would also like to do is obviously to try to do this for the Asian population as well. And we hope we can talk to you if that happens. And also off the back of that next set of research, Professor Elizabeth Draper, thank you. Thank you to all of you listening. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. That's the moment it hit me. I'm like, oh my gosh, I think I'm in a cult. I used to think to myself, these people are mad, but until I realised that I'm mad as well.

I'm Paris Lees, and this is The Flipside. In each episode, I tell two stories from opposite sides of the coin and use science to ask questions about elements of the human experience that we sometimes take for granted. I know that we're genetically related, but in my mind I don't have the feeling that we are necessarily kin. My dad said, you know that we love you, and I am your father, but... Subscribe to The Flipside with me, Paris Lees, on BBC Sounds. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.