Woman's Hour - Singer-songwriter and cellist Ayanna Witter-Johnson

Episode Date: March 19, 2021

The Supreme Court are today announcing their judgement on the so-called "pizza test". That is whether a residential or home carer who "sleeps in" is entitled to the minimum wage. The reason it is named the "pizza test" is that they are required to be on site, and cannot leave to go and buy a pizza, even if they're not actually performing some specific caring activity. The case was brought by a highly-qualified care support worker called Clare Tomlinson-Blake. If the Supreme Court find in her favour it will have huge implications as it could cost the sector over £400 million in back pay. Anita Rani is joined by our reporter, Melanie Abbott, who has been speaking to Claire, and Christina McAnea, the general secretary of UNISON.The British multi-national consumer goods company, Unilever announced last week that it will remove the word ‘normal’ from 200 of its beauty products, in an attempt to create a ‘more inclusive definition of beauty’. They will also ban excessive editing of photos in relation to ‘body shape, size proportion and skin colour’. This includes models, as well as social media influencers who have been paid to promote its products. Florence Adepoju, founder of MDMflow and Sasha Pallari, the make-up artist who campaigned for better regulations on social media beauty advertisements, discuss why diversity in the beauty industry is important and what brands can do to work towards inclusivity. All week on Woman's Hour we have been thinking about and discussing the murder of Sarah Everard. Today Jacqueline Rose is one of the world's leading feminist literary and cultural critics discusses her new book, 'On Violence and On Violence Against Women'. The singer-songwriter and cellist Ayanna Witter-Johnson has a rare sound that combines classical music and eclectic soul. She was nominated for her first MOBO Award in 2012. Her recent release 'Rise Up', featuring Akala, has become a revolutionary anthem for young Black people. Part of the WOW UK Festival, which is online now and will be running until Sunday 21st March, she joins Anita in the studio.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Claire Tomlinson-Blake Interviewed Guest: Christina McAnea Interviewed Guest: Florence Adepoju Interviewed Guest: Sasha Pallari Interviewed Guest: Jacqueline Rose Interviewed Guest: Ayanna Witter-Johnson

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to your Friday Woman's Hour. Now, how many of you picked up an instrument at school and how far did you get with it? Well, my recorder playing got only as far as a very out of tune Eau Claire de la Lune. We're going to have some music today. Thankfully for all of you listening, I'm not going anywhere near a recorder. We have an absolute treat in store for you in the form of cellist and all round musical wonder,

Ayana Witter-Johnson. If you know who she is, you'll already be excited. And if you don't, I'm excited for you. We're also discussing beauty and its definition. What are normal beauty standards? Is there such a thing? Does the world around you and the images of beauty make you feel beautiful or the opposite, make you feel insecure about how you look to the point where you alter your own image?

Do you use filters on your own photos to change how you look to fit in with these perceived notions of what it means to be beautiful? We'll get into inclusivity in the beauty industry with two very impressive women leading the way to change beauty standards. And of course, I would love to hear from you. How do you feel about the way you look and just how extreme have you gone with these filters online? You can text me on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. And of course, you can get in touch via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or if you fancy emailing us, just head to our website. And don't forget, if you want to catch up on any

of our shows that you might have missed, you can do so on BBC Sounds. And Woman's Hour wouldn't be Woman's Hour if we didn't hear from a doyen of feminist thinking today, the incredible Jacqueline Rose will be joining us. But first, during the pandemic, we've all been dependent on essential workers, especially carers, to look after our loved ones. But carers often have insecure contracts and low pay. According to the Fawcett Society, the average wage for social care workers employed by an agency

is just £8.52 per hour, with full-time workers earning just £16,400 a year. Eight out of ten care workers are women, many from ethnic minority and migrant backgrounds. And for the last five years, a case has been going through the courts to establish if care workers should be paid a minimum wage when they're sleeping overnight in their place of work but on call. It's become known as the pizza test and rests on whether a carer who sleeps in can be paid a one-off flat rate for that shift, in this case around £30, or should get the full hourly rate. It's called the pizza test because care workers must be on

site and can't leave to get a pizza, even if they're not actually performing some specific caring activity. Well, our reporter Melanie Abbott has been following the story and can fill us in. Yeah, this. Sorry, Anita, I was going to tell you this has been going on now for five years. As you say, Claire Tomlinson-Blake, she's the care worker in question. She initially won her case against her employer, Mencap, at a tribunal, and indeed an appeal tribunal, when Mencap went to appeal, agreed with her too. And at that point, all care providers had to start paying the minimum wage for sleep-ins, and they also had to backdate that pay for six years. And if they didn't do that, they face fines from HMRC. Now, Mencap took the case to the Court of Appeal and won.

This put care workers back to square one. But Claire, with her union, Unison, went to the Supreme Court and that's the judgment that we have had today. Within just the last five minutes, we have heard that her appeal has been dismissed by the Supreme Court. After five years, it's been dismissed. Tell us a bit more about the woman who brought the case, Claire Tomlinson-Blake. She'd been working for Mencap since 2004.

She looked after two men with autism and learning difficulties in what's known as supported living. So this is a normal private property, but a carer is there 24-7 assisting whenever needed. And the idea is that people do live as independently as possible, but you intervene if it's necessary. So overnight, you would be sleeping, you would be on hand if you're needed. And those shifts are known as the sleep-ins. And that's what this dispute has been all about. Claire was getting paid a flat rate of just over £29,

£29 and five pence to be precise. Now, Claire has never spoken about this case in the five years it's been going on, but she has agreed to give her first ever interview to Woman's Hour. And I asked her first why she brought the case. I came to a gradual realisation we were actually working during the night rather than being on call. We were allowed to sleep, but this is almost a misdescription of the shifts because the people that we were supporting were assessed as needing 24-hour care and support. Yes, we were allowed to sleep, but we had to keep a listening ear out at all times. It was monitoring and couldn't really be described as sleep.

And I believe that was something which deserved to be paid the minimum wage for. Would it be a nightly occurrence that you were disturbed or would there be some evenings or some nights when you get a decent night's sleep? I would never say that we were constantly being disturbed because that would mean that the person's needs would need reassessing for them to have a waking night in place. But we were never able to fully relax and go to sleep as you do at home. This case has rumbled on now for five years. What kind of toll has it taken on you? I wouldn't say it's taken a toll. I wouldn't have taken the case if I didn't believe it was the right thing to do. I don't expect you imagined

it would still be going on five years later though when you started? Certainly didn't but I'm glad that a light has been shone on what's essentially quite a grey area for care staff who are some of the most lowest paid and undervalued staff in the country. It's highly skilled work, a vast majority of people who work in the care industry are women and it's just about having the work valued and certainly over the past year throughout Covid, public have been out there clapping for us, which has been wonderful. But this has maybe been a temporary thing. Are carers really being valued?

It appears that we're being paid less than the minimum wage means that actually perhaps we aren't being valued the way that we should be valued. I mean, Claire must be feeling very disheartened and disappointed today. Mel, tell us a bit more about the reasons for the court's ruling. Yeah, the judge said that there had been close look at the contract law and what exactly constituted working or not on night shifts when you are sleeping overnight. The bottom line is that the court concluded that there was an exemption in national minimum wage legislation and that it doesn't have to be paid

when a person is doing what is known as a sleep-in. This is what Claire told me when she heard the verdict. This is what she had to say. It's a huge disappointment from a personal point of view it's a relief that it's over with but from the point of view of the care workers and the respect and value that I believe that care workers erode I think it's a huge disappointment and a slap in the face. I also believe that it undervalues the people the care workers are supporting as well because it means that they're not worth giving the minimum wage to. When you won the tribunal back in 2016 there must have been some celebration for you then. Did you think fantastic this will be the end of it? I didn't let myself think that because I knew that Mencap wouldn't let it go. I know that sounds a bit strange, but I knew that it was their responsibility to fight being the charity that they are, who would want to be supportive of the people with learning disabilities and obviously the charitable funding. Court cases like this can be extremely stressful. Was there ever a point where you thought,

that's it, I've had enough? No. And I thought long and hard before taking this action in the first place. And I knew what the consequences for myself potentially would be, but couldn't settle I've never questioned the actions that I've taken I've known always known there's a possibility that the case could have failed there's always been a possibility that the case could have succeeded but either way I wanted the light to be shone on a very grey area in pay, low pay, the care industry. At least more people are aware of the low pay and what's happening within the care industry. Some people will think well you shouldn't be getting paid if essentially you're sleeping, you're getting paid to go to bed.

We were resting in bed. I would say that until you've worked and done a sleepover in that service that you can't really understand what it's like because you still have the full responsibility of the shift you know that people are in a room in close proximity to you and it's certainly not sleep as you would at home it's almost a different level of consciousness, which is somewhere between sleep and awake. So what have Mencap said about the ruling? Well, before the ruling, Mencap said that they personally would be at risk the entire sector £400 million in extra payments and back payments too. They have just sent us a statement where they say it is no exaggeration to say if the ruling had been different, it would have severely impacted on a sector which is already underfunded and stretched to breaking points.

Some providers would have gone bust. Interestingly, though, they add that they believe that legislation covering sleep in payments is out of date and is unfair, and Mencap is calling on the government to reform this. Thanks, Mel. Well, we're now joined by Christina McAnee, the General Secretary of Unison. Christina, what are the implications of this ruling today? How do you feel about the fact that this case, after five

years, has been dismissed? I'm disappointed, deeply disappointed, obviously, but I'm also incredibly angry about it. And I think Claire, when your reporter spoke to Claire there, she's a very eloquent speaker in terms of being able

to put the case uh for this and i think um i mean the judges were obviously hampered by the legislation they've got uh that the national minimum wage legislation does need to be changed we've been saying that for some time and i think this makes it makes it even clearer that what we've seen happening in the care sector during the past year in the pandemic and you know people are now aware of what actually happens to workers in the care sector and it's a high time the government actually did something about this and if anything good has come out of this pandemic surely one of the good things could be we end up with a care system which is fair to everyone the people who rely on it and the people who who work in it um christina sorry i'm still i'm just so angry about

it yeah i can i can i can hear it in your voice i can see it in your face as well because this has just just come through in the last sort of 10 minutes this ruling and actually um our listeners are getting in touch um we've had a tweet from deborah who says you're on call so can be woken at any time not a proper night's sleeprible that carers are treated so badly. We've had another tweet from Carrie who says, firefighters are paid for their overnight shifts where they slept. Many on-call staff are also paid for overnight shifts. Why is this not the case for carers?

What an awful system we have. So the public are sort of feeling that sense of anger as well. Yeah, and it's actually ludicrous as well. I mean, how this, because what they've said is, if you are awake and you have to work, then you will get paid for that. And I mean, if you think, what do they want to happen in care homes?

Do you want, are we going to put little clocks with a stopwatch on it next to carers when they go to bed so that, you know, they might manage to get the people they look after settled by, say, midnight or one in the morning. Might manage to doze off. They hear something, they're waking up, it's two in the morning. Are they supposed to click a button and then keep doing that throughout the night? And the next day say to their employer, oh, I was awake and working for two hours and 20 minutes or four hours and 10 minutes.

And I demand that you pay me the national minimum wage for this I mean it's just ludicrous and the fact is it's a it's a misnomer to call it uh sleep sleep in it's called sleepovers in Scotland because even as Claire said even when they're sleeping they're not really sleeping and I've actually been to care homes with their members and seen you have this image that maybe they're in a bedroom, they're not. Most of the time they're in an office with the photocopier and the printer in the same office. They might manage to doze in a chair or they might have a camp bed set up. Sometimes we don't even have that. I mean, they're in a room which is like a cupboard has no window it's just

shocking and the fact is they they have to be in this home uh with those people because they rely on having someone with them during the night they're not at home putting their own children to bed or being able to pop around and make sure that their elderly mother is settled for the night because they're in this home doing this for other people and getting paid a pittance for it i mean some people are getting paid as little as 30 35 pounds a night for a 10 12 year but can you understand the kind of cost implications for mencap you know 400 million pounds and they said that some providers would have gone bust and ultimately the people who rely on care would have suffered. Of course I can.

But that doesn't mean that you then rely on low-paid workers to prop up the system, which is basically what we're doing at the moment. And that's why I'm saying the time has come for the government to actually step up to the plate here, recognise what's happened in the care system and do something positive about it. Well, Christina McAnee, thank you for joining us. That was Christina McAnee from Unison. If you want to share your thoughts, as lots of you are doing, David's tweeted in. You can tweet, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. I used to work in a children's home for autistic and Down syndrome children. I had to sleep at the home, but I could never sleep.

It was too dangerous, as you're worrying all the time about what might happen. You can also text us on 84844. Now last week, consumer goods company Unilever announced that it will remove the word normal from 200 of its beauty products in an attempt to create a more inclusive definition of beauty. They will also ban excessive editing of the photographs used in advertising. So how do you use the word normal on a product? What does that even mean when it comes to beauty? Well, recent studies have found that seven in 10 people felt using the word normal on product packaging and advertising had a negative impact and made people feel excluded. For younger people between 18 and 35,

it went up eight to 10. And a report based on young women and non-binary people revealed that 90% use a filter or toes before posting to even out their skin tone, reshape their jaw or nose, shave off weight and brighten or bronze their skin. Well, joining me to discuss this are Florence Adepodu, founder of MDM Flow, a diverse beauty range, and Sasha Polari, who is a makeup artist, model and founder of the hashtag Filter Drop campaign.

Welcome to you both Florence what what what is meant by normal what do they mean by normal when it comes to beauty um I have absolutely no idea what is meant by the word normal in the context of beauty because in any other industry it would be completely ridiculous to be able to, you know, purchase something on the basis of it targeting normal. So why is inclusion in beauty important? I think inclusion is important because you need to be representative of your community and the clients that you're trying to serve. And I feel like in beauty is one of

the industries where um historically making people feel insecure um has been somewhat of a marketing and a sales tactic and i mean is this what led you to set up your own company in diverse beauty and you make your own makeup as well you're very impressive because you're you're actually a cosmetic scientist is that what pushed you into this industry you thought there's there's not enough people representing um the way I look so I'll do it myself yeah absolutely um when I was studying cosmetic science I found it insane the issues that I personally had when it came to cosmetics were easily solved and that actually a lot of formulas just hadn't been updated from like historic base formulas that have been used for like pretty much hundreds of years so for me it was important to create a brand that

represents like the diverse community when it comes to like beauty consumers and also something that is just modern and relevant so is it is it enough that Unilever have taken the step to remove the word normal from 200 of their products um I think it's a good step obviously they're a really big company and they have like what they do impacts the industry at large but I do think it's just the beginning I think diversity is more than just the language that you use it's about your technology it's about your formulations it's about suitability or diverse skin tones so there's just so many different elements that will make you know, this step progressive and not just the removal of a single word. And have you ever used a filter on photos of yourself

to make yourself fit whatever, you know, this idea of normal beauty is? I have to admit, I have used filters, not to look normal, but yeah, sometimes to kind of give me a cheeky tan. A cheeky tan. Being fat at at home let me bring Sasha in here because Sasha uh you've created filter drop the hashtag and asked your followers to post their unfiltered pictures let me tell me why did you start this campaign I think um it's just a progression of everything I believe in when it comes to beauty. I really do want to remove so much language around the way we talk about beauty products.

And at my personal stage in my confidence journey, I'd stopped using filters. And because I'd stopped using them, I was noticing just how much everybody else was using them. And I just took to my Instagram one day and I just said, look, do we even see real skin anymore? Because these kind of digitally enhanced filters go over our face and they remove everything. So I really wanted to change that. So bring us up to speed. How extreme are these filters for people who aren't kind of putting pictures of themselves on Instagram every day? What can you do to change your appearance?

I mean, some of them are really subtle, which in my opinion are kind of a little bit more dangerous because you can't even tell what's been done. But you literally could put something over your face in less than five seconds and it's completely changed the structure of your features. So it can take in your cheekbones, it can slim down your nose. 99% of them smooth out your pores

and brighten your eyes, brighten your teeth. I mean, the list is endless, but there are a lot of really damaging ones and flow um you can they can actually lighten your skin tone as well can't they yeah which is which is another issue altogether isn't it colorism and this sort of white washing of beauty standards definitely and i think the fact that, that there is a beauty standard is quite damaging because essentially beauty needs to be like more diverse and people need to be able to feel like they can self-represent as they are, as opposed to trying to meet like a specific look. And Sasha, in conversations you've had with influencers, did they understand why using filters to promote products specifically was problematic? I think I've had a bit of a mixed review a lot of people have kind of said

oh what's the difference between this and makeup and what's the difference between this and surgery and the difference is everything that we do to our face in real life is there's a reality to that so we can have all the makeup on in the world and you can still see pores because pores exist on every skin with these filters they take away and they remove so much reality that we end up looking at ourselves and only comparing ourselves to this unachievable standard and to go back to what Flo just said one of the biggest problems I have with these filters is they've taken ideals from different cultures put them together not celebrating individual cultures, and then created this complete unrealistic, unachievable thing. But, you know, it's so wrong.

So there was a mixed review. But in general, over the last year, I have seen so much more real skin. And that's been amazing. And you've really got the bit between your teeth because you've contacted beauty brands. You've even contacted the Advertising Standards Authority, haven't you? Good on you. Yeah. And what kind of reaction have you had what was the outcome the outcome from the asa investigation

i put in last august so august 2020 and it was a six month long investigation to my original complaint was that i just wanted it to be declared if you're going to use a filter to promote a beauty product please make sure that you state that so that the people who are profiting off your sales are going to, you know, you're being transparent with your audience. And the investigation took it one step further, the ASA, which is the governing body for advertising online. And they basically said, don't use filters full stop. So it was an incredible outcome. And yeah, it's been very overwhelming, but I am over the moon. It's again, like what Flo said, it's another step in the right direction. It's still a long way to go.

Flo, how much of this is about us using filters to change the way we look? Or is it about these big brands, these big influential brands and the images that they're pumping out of what so-called normal beauty is? I think it's a mix of both. I think the big brands are being led by the movement that is happening through individuals online and through independent beauty brands and they're realising that if they don't get with the times that they're just going to be irrelevant and I think they have a bigger impact like globally, you know, in like developing, like we mentioned before about lightening, like skin lightening is very big in Africa and Asia,

and a lot of these products are put out by huge conglomerates. So I think by us removing filters and having more diverse products available, it puts pressure on these big brands to make a bigger move globally and impact the global beauty industry. Yeah, and actually reflect real women. I mean, OK, so there might be people listening who are like,

what do you mean I have to remove my filters, Sasha? How do I do that, Flo? Like, just how do you encourage young women particularly, not even young women, all women, just to stop using that filter? What would you say? How do you empower them to do that, Sasha? I think, you know, I hand on my heart, say that I used to edit my photos and I used to use filters. I think you know I I hand on my heart say that I used to edit

my photos and I used to use filters I think people think I woke up one day this confident and that definitely isn't the case I was you know part of the problem as well as this is a this is such a societal issue that we need to address from such a young age because they're so damaging in the way that that we see ourselves so I always just say to people, care about more, care about more than your image. So try and use less filters. And then eventually you'll start seeing yourself without the filters. And then that helps you to then eventually use no filters. And then by the time you've got the other end of it, you put a filter on and I can't even use them on my skin anymore because I just think I look utterly ridiculous. And that's been a long process and it has been a lot of hard work.

But I know that anybody can get that because, you know, I used to do it. So, yes. And you are leading the charge with your own Instagram account. yourself in any of the any of the magazines just encouraging um more women with any level of melanin to be in photos in magazines on instagram advertising the lot of it right florence yeah absolutely be as visible as you can and i absolutely love sasha's campaign i think it's important to like build up communities of women who are able to show up as themselves and feel confident and peaceful as themselves. Brilliant. Florence and Sasha, keep up the great work and thank you for joining us on Woman's Hour. Now, all week here on Woman's Hour,

we've been thinking about Sarah Everard's murder. We spoke to two women who explained why they attended the weekend vigil on Clapham Common, speaking for thousands of women who shared their stories of protecting themselves against gender-based violence. On Tuesday, we spoke to a government minister about proposed changes to make women safer on the streets. On Wednesday, we spoke to two police chief constables about the culture in the police when it comes to women. And yesterday, we spoke with three men about how they view male violence and specifically their thoughts on why some men attack and harm women and what

can be done about it. Well today I'm delighted we're joined by Jacqueline Rose, one of the world's leading feminist literary and cultural critics who's written a new book on violence and on violence against women. Jacqueline, welcome to the programme. Why do you think the horrendous murder of Sarah Everard has prompted such an outpouring of protests. Why now do we have such unity and strength of feeling and emotion? I think there are a number of different reasons. First of all, thank you for having me on the programme. This has been an extraordinary week and I've been following it with interest and I've been moved by what you've done, especially yesterday. I think it's partly to do with the pandemic and the things that this pandemic is making visible to the outside world. But the first thing is I think that people are desperate for

public sites of grief because bodies are going unmourned, loved ones are going unmourned or not unmourned, but they're not having the rituals of commemoration. And therefore, I think the police got it wrong on every single count. The point of that demonstration on Clapham Common was precisely to have the forms of contact that are not available in relationship to people who've died and are the opposite of violence against women, that's a intimate touch, close protectionism, and so on. So I think it was a counter statement as to what we're being allowed and not allowed. But I also think the pandemic, it's a response to the fact that one of the things this pandemic has shown is the extent of domestic violence against women. So not just on the streets, but in the home. So when we were given our slogan, stay at home, protect the NHS, save lives,

which has been revived in this third lockdown. Nothing was being said about what has been called the global pandemic of women being killed in their homes. And it's as if the pandemic is just making this so clear that we can't avoid it anymore. So I think that was also part of the response. But I do think there's a but here, which we have to mention and relates to the last item on the programme, which is when Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry were murdered on Wembley Common in June 2020. It got none of the attention that Sarah Everhardt has received. And I'm really pleased you brought that up because these are two black sisters who were murdered in Wembley last June, as you said,

and actually two police officers were arrested after claims of an inappropriate photo being taken at the scene. But there was not the same level of grief. I'm not sure many people have even heard their names. And it's an uncomfortable question that we need to ask ourselves. But whilst we are soul-searching, we need ask it and why do you think that was why do you think it is that it just did we just they didn't get the same level of attention well there's one word answer to that and it's racism which is to say that those lives aren't valued in the same way but there's a flip

side to this which i have also found very disturbing, which is the endless repeated photographs, large photographs, front page, including The Guardian, day after day after day of Sarah Everard, as if we're being encouraged to look at her over and over again, pretty blonde woman. And I think there's something slightly sinister about that, as if the crime is being repeated in the response to it or one of the causes of the crime. So I think sexism and racism, I think are the two answers to your question.

Now, yesterday, and you said that you particularly paid attention to, you listened to the show yesterday, we have three men discussing on the programme how they view male violence and specifically their thoughts on why some men attack and harm women and what can be done about it. There was so much in that discussion,

but I am curious to know what you thought of it and understanding the complexities of why some men are violent. Well, I found it so fascinating because they didn't agree with each other. I mean, they really care. I thought the most striking disagreement was between Conroy Harris, I think his name was,

and David Challen, because Conroy Harris wanted to talk about violence against men. He wanted to talk about very deep and complex stuff to do with the transmission of abuse, abuse by a violent mother who had been abused by her violent father. He also said at one moment, which I thought was absolutely remarkable, that he is part of this thing, Band of Brothers, which talks to men about actual and potential violence. And he said he's never, ever met one man who has expressed a desire to harm women.

Now, that either means they don't have that desire or it means they were lying or it means that it's so deep they can't access it because they're so ashamed. And that leads in a way to David Challen, because what he was saying was in a way the opposite, which was we just need to talk. And I saw an interview with him recently where he said over and over again, we need to talk. We need to have the conversation. And I ended up, I started off being a little bit irritated because he was saying the same thing over and over and over again. And then I realized he's really on it. He's saying the problem is how to talk, not just we've got to talk, but it's not as easy as it's being made out to be i mean when you your new book that's coming out um on violence and on violence against women you could never have

predicted when you set out to write this book the role of violence that the role of violence would assume during this pandemic there's one sense phrase that really jumped out for me and that you put in it which is the lethal farce of masculinity on offer. Yes, well, this is part of my disagreement with radical feminism that was founded by Catherine McKinnon and Andrea Dwarf, not the radical feminists of Lola Olufemi, which is just about activism and sisters uncut and getting out on the street and really challenging what's happening. This is a radical feminism that believes that men are almost inevitably

the embodiment of the worst masculinity they can be. I find that deeply depressing because if men are always the worst they can be and if female power, as Catherine McKinnon says at one point, is a contradiction in terms, then we're on a hiding to nothing. We may as well just give up the ghost. There's nothing to fight for. So I like the idea. I'm always looking for the places where there's a gap

between the lethal masculinity on offer and men's assuming that role. Their discomfort with it, their shame of it, their dislike of it, their just not being at ease in it, but having to pretend that they are. And Jacqueline, I really would like to know very quickly about this idea of that you talk about but we need to be psychoanalytically attuned to ourselves so it's this idea uh that we have to look into look inside as well as get

what's going on externally well Luke Hart whose mother and sister was were murdered in 2017. Had a piece in The Guardian this week where he talks about the need to go into the dark side of ourselves. And he also says some quite remarkable things about the relationship between entitlement and resentment. So the father felt entitled, but he also felt resentful. Everything that was wrong with his life was down to the women.

And yes, Luke Hart's father killed his mother and sister. Sorry, didn't I get that wrong? No, no, no, you said it right. Absolutely. And I just thought that was, it really relates to your last two features, because it's like the first one is about women doing work that's degraded or not valued. And the second one is a demand, maybe absolutely perfect. So entitlement means women

are worthless and resentment means they have all the power. So it's a kind of perverse combination that these men are involved in and to track it and trace it and to really go into it is going to involve pushing men past the point of shame, past the point of what they want to acknowledge in themselves. And I think that's really difficult to do. And we need to, when I say a psychologically attuned culture, I mean, one in which we can recognise the depth of these identifications, and these roles, and these conflicts, and we can create the spaces in which they can be touched on, and moved, got to move. But I don't want us to underestimate how hard that is. Well, as long as we are beginning the process, Jacqueline,

it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you on Woman's Hour. Jacqueline's book on violence and on violence against women is out next month from the 15th of April. You're welcome on Woman's Hour anytime, Jacqueline. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's been an honour to be here this week. Now, the singer, songwriter and cellist Ayanna Witter-Johnson is a rare exception to the rule that classical music

and eclectic soul cannot successfully coexist. Be prepared to feel inadequate. The British-born musician graduated with a first-class degree in classical composition and won the Trinity Laban Silver Award in 2008. She went on to complete a Master's of Music in Composition at the Manhattan School of Music. While she was there, she became the only non-American to win

Amateur Night Live at the legendary Apollo Theatre in Harlem. She was nominated for her first MoBo in 2012. She co-wrote and featured on Anushka Shankar's song The Words from the Grammy-nominated Love Letters EP and features on Nathan Sawney's single Movement Variation 2. Ayana's recent release, Rise Up, featuring Akala, has become a revolutionary anthem for young black people. She is part of the WOW UK Festival, which is online now

and will be running until Sunday the 21st of March. And she did a brilliant cover of Roxanne, which I love. Have a listen. Roxanne You don't have to pull the red light Those days are over You don't have to say How I did to the night

You don't have to wear That dress tonight Walk the streets for money You don't care if it's wrong or if it's right Roxanne You don't have to put on the red light Roxanne Put on the red light, red sun. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

I'm swaying in the studio. Tell me Sting has heard that brilliant version. Thank you so much, my love. I really hope he has. He has now. I'm sure he's a massive fan of Woman's Hour. You have achieved so much. But let's go right back to the beginning,

to when you were three, at the beginning of your musical journey. How did it all start? Well, you know, there was a tape that my mum used to play and it was an album by Sweet Honey and the Rock. And I just absorbed this music and she took me to see them live. And as she told me, the story goes that I sang along to all the words and the couple in front of us turned around. I was like, I think she's got some musical ability there. So I started piano lessons shortly after that, classical piano. And you're a very accomplished piano player. I try.

I have heard. I did my research and people have, everyone I spoke to said amazing things about you. So when did you pick up the cello and why? Well, that happened in the early years of secondary school. And when I started, essentially, I wasn't learning much in the music class. And my teacher, bless him, just such a perceptive person, he said, you should do something new and challenge yourself and start a second instrument while we're all here doing basic piano skills. So that's, I took a list of instruments home to my mom and she was like no woodwind please no brass uh no drums I was like okay we've got strings left and I I by process of elimination I thought the double bass was a bit big the violin was a bit small I didn't

know what a viola was and there was the cello like and it was the cello from school that you ended up taking as your first cello so I had a beat-up cupboard cello to start with and my music teacher said oh you're progressing really quickly why don't I try and find you a better instrument and he contacted the school governor yeah who loaned me his personal cello the whole time I was at school that's amazing yeah and your cello has a name my cello is called Ruben. And thanks to my wonderful grandma, she purchased him for me at the end of school from the governor. And we're still together today.

And it is so wonderful. I advise everyone to just Google Ayana, watch her perform, because you're not just playing, you are one with Ruben. It's beautiful to watch. And you actually play the cello Ruben in quite an interesting way, don't you? You don't just use him in the traditional sense. No, he's not only is he my dance partner and there's this like synergy between us, but I play him like a guitar sometimes, I drum him, I play him percussively with my bow, a lot of coligno battuto for the string players out there and I play him like a bass and, of course,

as a bowed instrument in a traditional sense. Now, you've worked with, quite frankly, all of these people are legends in my eyes. Anushka Shankar, Nathan Sawney, whose new album drops today. Yes, and it's incredible. Immigrants, honestly, I cried. I listened to it first thing this morning. And just to think about the Windrush stories he

talks about and partition and just the story of his family and it's really striking yeah I mean I 100% agree I cried when I watched listened to it and it is the it's a piece of art it's like we've been crying out for it's so hopeful and so beautiful absolutely and he knows how to pick amazing artists to work with because you are on there as well. And you've worked with the incredible Akala in Rise Up. So you've just worked with amazing people. I'm sure no one turns you down. But tell me about Rise Up. Yeah, so Rise Up, the song itself, I wrote a few years ago

just to remind myself of who I am as a young British Caribbean person, my gifts and my power and how I can use my voice to kind of create change and just to rally my community and to give hope. And given the summer that we had last year with the murder of George Floyd and just the sense of isolation we were all feeling, I felt that Rise Up was the perfect song to kind of re-release into the world. And I accompanied it with a really powerful cover featuring Cleveland Watkiss of Declaration of Rights by the Abyssinians the great reggae

roots reggae Jamaican group and we cover this song and I pair it with a final remix of Rise Up just to give this powerful statement. I think we should have a listen. Yeah. powerful statement. I think we should have a listen. Can you hear that? Can you feel that? Getting louder, fires are burning deep in the night While you are sleeping, they've under the stars They're starting to sing and there's a rumour Nothing's gonna stop this thing Ayana, it is so brilliant and so refreshing to hear a cello being played in a different style

So how much did the music that you grew up with influence your style of music? A lot. There was a lot being played in the house, everything from Vivaldi's Four Seasons to Anita Baker, Stevie Wonder, Steely Dan, just a lot of different influences that have enriched my life. And you have a very busy year ahead of you? Absolutely. Lots of online concerts. I'm writing for the London Symphony Orchestra and lots of fun collaborations coming up. Oh, Ayanna, I'm so pleased that you came in to talk to us.

You are more than welcome to come back to Woman's Hour anytime. Feel free to bring Ruben. Yes, I'd love to. And I have to say, you bring such joy and inspiration to so many people. So keep up the incredible work.

Thanks for having me, Matt. Absolutely my pleasure. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Are you fed up with the news? Next slide, please. The skewer. The skewer.

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