Woman's Hour - Singer-songwriter Annie Lennox

Episode Date: March 17, 2023

Anita and Annie are joined by Kalpona Akter, an ambassador for The Circle who worked in a garment factory when she was just 12 years old. The government’s first Menopause Employment Champion Helen Tomlinson joins the programme to discuss how she will advise employers on improving workplace support for women experiencing menopause symptoms. And we hear about a revival of Tennessee Williams’s 1947 drama of passion, delusion and mental illness – A Streetcar Named Desire. Following a run at the Almeida Theatre in January it has transferred to the West End and opens at the Phoenix Theatre in London on Monday. The play dramatizes the experiences of Blanche DuBois, a former Southern belle who, after encountering a series of personal losses, leaves her once-prosperous situation to move into a shabby apartment in New Orleans rented by her younger sister Stella and brother-in-law, Stanley. Patsy Ferran and Anjana Vasan, who play Blanche and Stella respectively, join Anita Rani to discuss their characters and the sisters’ relationship.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Tim Heffer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Here's a question for all of you. Does mum know best? A survey has found that nearly half of us ignored the advice our mothers gave us until apparently we had our own children. Then half of us realised they made sense all along.

A third that were surveyed said they'd wished they'd listened to their mum and a fifth said they'd turned into a younger version of their mother. But how about you? Did your mum know best all along? What advice were you given that you may have rejected when you were younger only to realise she was right?

Or are you the teenage rebel turned good girl? Or does that not make any sense to you as you've done everything to oppose what your mother wanted from you? Break the mould, go your own way. Maybe your values and beliefs are completely different or your political point of view, the opposite ends of the spectrum. Maybe mums don't always know everything. They only know what they know after all, based on their own upbringing and what they were exposed to. Can you not wait to turn into your own mother? Or does the thought terrify you? We are talking about our mothers today, so I would love to hear from you on this. 84844 is the number to text. You can email us via the website or you can drop me a WhatsApp or a voice note. It's 03700 100 444. Then, the word

legend is often chucked about willy-nilly, but today we absolutely have a bona fide living legend on the programme. There must be an angel Laying with my heart, yeah Sweet dreams are made of this Who am I to disagree? Classic after classic after classic. The sensational Annie Lennox herself will be joining me to tell me all about the cause that's taken over her life for the last

15 years and two stars of the future patsy farren and anjana vasan both starring in a streetcar named desire as sisters blanche and stella dubois will also be joining me in the studio that text number once again tell me about your mom's 84844 but onto our first item the government has appointed its first menopause employment champion who will advise on how to improve workplace support for women experiencing menopause symptoms. Helen Tomlinson will work closely with the Department for Work and Pensions, as well as the Women's Health Ambassador Dame Leslie Regan, to bring awareness of issues surrounding the menopause and work. Helen will do this alongside her current role at the ADECO group. According to the Department for Work and Pensions, women with serious menopausal symptoms take an average of 32 weeks off work, whilst one in four have considered giving up work

altogether. So what will this role entail? I spoke to Helen this morning and began by asking her why she wanted to become the first menopause employment champion. Well, it's been a bit of a whirlwind, I've got to say, the last few weeks. But essentially, we started our journey internally at the ADECO group in 2021. And I launched our menopause policy on World Menopause Day. And as part of that sort of, you can't just launch a policy and hope everybody um aligns to it or resonates with it so I started off by doing podcasts with um some of our senior leadership team who were I'd known a long long time I knew they were in either perimenopause or menopause and they were willing to do a really honest podcast with me and say how it impacted on them and their lives and their jobs,

their careers, et cetera. And what that did was it opened up the conversation right across the business because there were other people thinking, well, if they're prepared to talk about it and be honest about the impact it has on them, they felt they could be more open about it. So it really changed the culture. How big is the business? How many employees does it take off? About 2,500 in the UK and Ireland. And on the back of that, I did a roundtable event with Carolyn Harris, who headed up the APPG for menopause. And she was our keynote speaker. And we invited our client base to come and watch the roundtable event and as an output of that I just went out and asked those clients that attended would you like help writing your

menopause policy and I was amazed at the number of organizations that came back and said yes we absolutely need help we don't have one we don't know how to implement it or if they did have one they needed to take it to the next level through training and education. And it got me thinking that there was a real opportunity to go out and support our clients who didn't know how to open up the conversation. And all of that just came together. And I was asked if I would take on this voluntary role. And essentially, the role is working with sector bodies, large employers, industry bodies, and pulling all those together and looking at the best practice. Some organisations are doing phenomenal work,

but looking at how we can ensure that that transcends across to smaller SME organisations. So what should be in place then to make workplaces adaptable for people experiencing the symptoms of menopause? What's the first bit of advice you give them? The first bit of advice I give them is around the fact that it is a very personal journey. Everybody's experience of menopause is very, very different. So there are two aspects to it. There's the practical piece, which can really help some people. But I think we also need to be really mindful of, you know, so you could easily say, oh, you know, in our organisation, we can offer flexible working. And that's true, we can, you know, we offer a hybrid model.

So if, as an example, if I hadn't slept because I'd been awake all night because I'd been having night sweats or insomnia or something like that, I've got the flexibility to work from home. If I was a teacher, a nurse, frontline worker, call centre manager, I don't have that luxury. So it's really easy to be very broad brush and say yeah everybody should do this it's about what works in their individual organization and actually what works for for that person so there's some really practical things like you know one of the lesser talked about symptoms of menopause can be extremely heavy periods, so flooding. So, you know, to have free sanitary products available

in the office workspace would be really, really helpful. But unless you've got the culture of the organisation right and that, you know, it's still very, very debilitating to know that you might need that and not feel that you can say to your manager, I might just have to get up and rush out at any moment. So unless that culture is in place, those practical tools can be a little bit disingenuous because they're not widely used. The cultural aspect is huge, isn't it? Because even if you as a woman who is going through the symptoms might feel a certain way. But if your boss is a man who doesn't get it, or even indeed a woman who doesn't get it, how do you even then have the ability to approach them to talk about it?

Because less than 25% of UK businesses currently have a menopause policy in place. Why do you think there is a resistance? What have you come up against when talking about this, when people have questioned you? I think that the nervousness is about the conversations that the policy will start. And without the conversation, the policy is literally a PDF or, you know, some words on a page that somebody may need to refer to if they're not properly supported. So my ambition, both internally and in the wider business world, is that, you know, nobody needs to ever invoke that

menopause policy because the organisations have a culture where it's okay to say, I am struggling today, this is the reason that I'm struggling, and this is what I'm experiencing. You mentioned at the beginning, this is about, you know, women who, one in four women choose to leave work because of their menopause symptoms. Are you surprised by the fact that women actually consider it? Yeah, I am because some of the aspects of it can and, you know, can be really debilitating and it's not so much the, it's the mental aspect of it and the anxiety, the brain fog, the feeling that, you know, you just can't deliver what you could deliver um and those

it's one in four that have considered leaving there's a million people uh women who have left the workforce because of menopause but there are also all those women that i've you know i've spoken to that have taken a a lower paid job or gone part-time and the impact on that is you know financial as well you know they've had to take a reduction in salary and a reduction in their pension pot we have to remain economically active longer than previous generations have had to so to to feel that you can't do that is really it's wrong I don't see that going through menopause should mean you have to either step back step down or even step out of the workplace.

What about women who might be feeling that their age is a factor in them getting back into employment? That's a really key initiative, isn't it, at the moment that came out of the budget. And without that support, when you've been out of work, having worked in that sector as well, it's quite challenging coming back into the workplace anyway from a confidence perspective. If you're also experiencing menopause symptoms, both physical symptoms and from a confidence perspective as well, it makes it even harder. So more organisations had a plan in place, a policy, they had that supportive culture, more women would feel arguably comfortable coming back into the workplace. And that can only be a positive thing. The government, Helen, recently rejected a recommendation to make menopause a protected characteristic under equality law.

What do you make of that? I think there is protection already through sex and age discrimination. And all the cases that have gone to tribunal have have been under those two protected characteristics but I think at a point in time if that was revisited after the the hearts and minds the cultural piece the education piece in business I think there would be less of a need for it to become a protected characteristic anyway. I'm intrigued to know your opinion on how you are having to do this as well as your

day job. And on top of that, you've got to do this, you said at the beginning, you're doing it under a voluntary basis. Does this indicate the value the government is placing on support for women going through menopause, and yet again, another women's issue, very important women's issue in the workplace, that you are having to do it voluntarily. I think there was an aspect of it that I was already doing.

I head up our gender forum as part of my broader role in the ADECA group, and they are incredibly supportive. So I'm allowed that time to do that and work on this as well. But I walked into it knowing that it was a voluntary role and I'm doing it because I think I can make a difference. And if I didn't think I could make a difference, I wouldn't have done it because you're right, it's a lot of work. It is a lot of work. 51% of us are going to go through this.

And it's really important. The government have said themselves, like you said, we talked about it on the programme yesterday in the budget. The focus is on the economy, getting people back to work. You know, the average age of women who reaches the menopause is 51. We can't be losing one in four of them out of the workforce. Surely it merits a proper role, a paid position look maybe some people wouldn't take it on in this way but i really feel that it complements what i already do and i'm not sure that i would want to give up what i want already do just just to focus on this anyway what advice would you give to women who are listening to this right now who are struggling with menopause symptoms but feel there is no

support for them in the workplace they don't even know how they would bring it up. They know that they're not going to be heard. It's just going to be rejected. What can they do? There are a huge number of organisations, coaching organisations, charities that they can reach out to, to help them to enable that conversation in their workplace. And that's really important and if anybody you know wanted to to reach out I will be happy to put them in touch with the relevant organization because at this starting point though that's what we need to be able to do that but my ambition is that we have that allyship across sectors across industries so if there's nobody in their organization as an example,

if they worked in the hospitality sector and they didn't feel they'd have got anybody to talk to in their organisation, there are menopause champions across the hospitality sector who can help to facilitate that conversation. And also, I think this is quite important, not all women experience bad menopause symptoms. So is there a way of helping them understand the impact that symptoms can have on some other women in the workplace that's that allyship piece it's almost

just because it didn't happen to you it doesn't mean that it's not real you know even in my own organization and particularly generationally there is um well we just got on with it but the you know life is different now like life evolves. And if there is an opportunity to help people who are struggling, that's a really important thing. But absolutely, 25% of women will go through menopause with absolutely no symptoms. So it's important that they understand and don't belittle it for the people that are going through the symptoms. So that's the allyship piece. And this all started because you began this within your own workplace why was it important for you to bring menopause and this conversation into your own work environment? I felt I was in a position where

I was going through menopause and not necessarily I did have symptoms and they were they are under control now. I had a hysterectomy seven years ago now, but I felt very lucky that I could open up the conversation about menopause in our organisation. And as soon as I did, there were people coming to me all the time saying, you know, I'm feeling like this, am I perimenopausal? Am I menopal and I thought if people they were keeping it to themselves before I opened up the conversation there must be a lot of other organizations where there are a lot of people that are concerned misdiagnosed a number of people were on antidepressants when actually it wasn't really impacting their symptoms but now they're on HRT and they're better and I'm not saying I know that HRT isn't for

everybody, but it was about them coming to me and saying, actually, do you think this or men in the organization saying, what can I do to help my wife or partner? And it was that that made me think I'm really lucky that I think one of my key skills is putting people together to make something happen. And I started to do that with our client base. And, you know, that's really had a big impact on our organisation and theirs as well. That was Helen Tomlinson, the Menopause Employment Champion, speaking to me a little bit earlier there. I've been asking you whether you agree that your mum's knew best all along. Frank's been in touch to say, I wish I'd listened to what my mother said to me when I was young.

Why? What did she say? I don't know. I didn't listen. There you go. 84844 is the number to text. Now, it's been described as one of the hottest shows of the year with several Olivier nominations. The revival of Tennessee Williams' 1947 drama of desire, delusion and mental health, A Streetcar Named Desire. Following a run at the Almeida Theatre in January, it's transferred to the West End and opens at the Phoenix Theatre in London on Monday. The play dramatises the experiences of Blanche Dubois, a former Southern belle, who after encountering a series of personal losses, leaves her once prosperous situation to move into a shabby apartment in New Orleans rented by her younger sister Stella and brother-in-law Stanley. Well I'm joined now in the studio by

Patsy Ferran along with Anjana Vasan who play Stella and Blanche. Blanche and Stella, welcome! Welcome both of you. I went to see it see it it is incredible let me just get it out there I was completely blown away by the two of you for people who don't know the story of a street car named Desire tell us a bit about it Patsy. Well that was a very good plot summary that you gave actually that was excellent I was like I need to steal that for future interviews. Actually, Anjana described this perfectly the other day, where the play begins with two sisters being reunited and then you follow what a six month period with them. And then you see a breakup of a sisterhood by the end.

So it's what I think we're discovering with this play is um the central relationship of two sisters and although a lot of people have a reference for the famous marlon brando performance um even though he's an integral part to that trio um people forget that actually the the central heart of the play is a part of these two sisters. And you basically get to spend two and a half hours of watching sisters and a brother-in-law and maybe a fourth outsider called Mitch

trying to grapple with each other and trying to survive the situation, sometimes succeeding, ultimately failing um but there's a lot of uh heart pain and incredible writing and incredible acting with the two of you um i think that's really fascinating what you've just said because you're right people think of marlon brando shouting stella and it is about two sisters and Stella and you know played by you as the younger sister what what's what's the relationship that she has with with Blanche it's complicated and um you know it because they reunited after a period of estrangement

and I think quite crucially when we first see Stella we learn that she has left family and she has left wealth to make life on her own, which I think there's a kind of a big question mark about how she ended up in New Orleans to begin with, having come from such privilege and wealth before and choosing to kind of separate herself from that um and there is a lot of love between them but the relationship is very very complicated um because um Blanche is someone who I think um I think this is true of a lot of sibling relationships where one person consumes the other person in the process in in the dynamic would you agree Patsy? I think Blanche needs um attention and she needs love and she needs reassurance all the time and i think stella is very happy to be that person for her but she can feel her sense herself feeling lost in that dynamic and i wonder if that is a reason why she kind of made her way out i mean there's obviously a lot of dysfunction in the family before but the reason for her escaping and trying to make her own personhood in her on her own terms is I think just an interesting way for the play to start and then the relationship is throughout the play it kind of

there's a lot of baggage and history but what I love most is that there is love and there is a lot of protection that Stella has for Blanche and a wealth of like devotion and love for her. And there's so much understanding that comes out of it about this, about your character, about Blanche, the older sister, who's very complicated and turns up like a whirlwind in a younger sister's life and is quite dominant and is drinking quite heavily. And you can make a judgment, you know, who is this slightly bully older sister who's come to upset her younger sister,

who's obviously tried to get away from this and forge a life for herself. But then it unfolds. And I just, you know, once this play was written in the 40s and now you view it through the eyes of a modern audience and how we feel about this woman and where she ends up yes I mean um it's quite hard to be objective about Blanche now playing her because um I see a lot of valid reasons why she ends up the way she does absolutely and actually what's fascinating what we found in rehearsals is that even though Blanche has the reputation of creating these fantasies and lying and manipulating and manipulating and flirting in order to get her own way, I actually find it as she's trying to survive a reality that's killing her. And on top of that, she's actually the only character, I could be wrong, but the only character in the play who tries to tell the truth numerous times throughout the play and no one wants to hear it because it's too difficult to face so she tries her best to tell the truth and

be completely honest about her situation and no one wants to hear it so she has to sort of revert back into the the lies that she creates i think she actually only actively lies maybe 15 20 percent of the time the rest of the time is just survival and trying to find protection she uses the word protection a lot um and she thinks she needs it from a man exactly i mean she has this incredibly enlightened um perspective of herself where she believes that the world is made up of soft people and hard people and she was born soft and if you're soft then you are the line is you have to court the favor of hard ones and that's that was her downfall and her weakness and I think she uses Stella as her lifeline

because up until that point she's lost everything else the only thing she has left in in the world is is her sister and I think Stella is one of the few people who recognizes Blanche uh beyond the facade that other people see and at one point in the play she talks about how you know um as a young girl Blanche was no one was as tender and trusting as she was but people like you and she refers to Stanley but men people like you abused her and forced her to change and I think that's a very revealing fact about Blanche's journey in life. And I think Stella can see that. And that is what she's trying to protect. But at the same time, as it's complicated,

is also sort of both drawn to and then kind of pulled away from it as well. And that's why it's so about the sisters. And it's not about Stanley. I mean, it is about Stanley. Stanley's very important. A bit about Stanley. But the sisters. And it's not about Stanley. I mean, it is about Stanley. Stanley's very important. A little bit. A bit about Stanley. But the sisters' relationship is key to this.

I've got to talk about how this all came about because you weren't even going to play Blanche. You had to step in, what, a week before it went? Less than that, I think. I had about four days of rehearsal. Why did you say yes? I think I'm insane. There's a line in the play where she shouts,

lunacy, absolute lunacy. And I kept saying that to myself for that week before the first preview going, why did I say yes? To be honest, I don't think I said yes, because I've always wanted to play Blanche Dubois. Knowing me as a person, I never expected to play this part at all. Because as a human being, I'm nowhere near what the preconceived ideas are of Blanche Dubois so um I think I said yes because someone offered me a challenge of learning an absurd amount of lines in one week and a part of my brain went okay I'll take the challenge is it also because you have a relationship because you've worked together before so can I confess something now I've I've I think I've talked to you about this before. Since we worked together four years ago on Summer in Smoke,

I've been concocting a plan to try and work with Anjanette again. Do you remember? This is a weird concoction of a plan. So you manifested it, basically. I think that's what I did. You put yourself through hell. I'm not surprised you want to work with her. You're absolutely incredible on that stage.

And it's not just me saying it, it's the Olivier nominations saying it. Thank you very much. But, you know, I think what helps, I think, is us being friends, on that stage and um and it's not just me saying it it's the olivier nominations saying thank you very much but you know i think what helps i think is us being friends but we met working on a job and not just any job we we met working on a tennessee williams play with rebecca so we had that chemistry already so when she came in with four days notice i kind of went i know how to do this because there's a there's a chemistry and a sisterhood that's underneath there that i don't have to manufacture and relearn you know it's innate within both of us let's get some last bit of advice then because it is woman's hour

you've just stepped onto this role you step on stage you're about to take it to the west end let's get some of where's your courage come from where does that kind of i think it comes from each other i literally about to say the same thing. From each other. I think, and also this entire company and what we've sort of gone through because it felt like the play could have fallen apart and then we sort of, no one, everyone refused to give up.

And I think we just relied on each other when it felt like, when there were days when I was like, oh, I'm not sure if we can do this or how we're going to do this. You just turn up and then you just do it. The sisterhood is strong yeah we are running out of time and I didn't even mention

Paul Muskell who plays who plays Stanley who is he? no one knows he's quite good he's quite good you two are absolutely exquisite

good luck oh no break a leg with the rest of the run thank you very much thank you so much for joining me it starts on Monday at the Phoenix Theatre

it is absolutely incredible they're both nominated for Olivier's and I think they're going to win with the rest of the world. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for joining me. It starts on Monday at the Phoenix Theatre. It is absolutely incredible. They're both nominated for Olivier's and I think they're going to win. 84844 is the number to text. Now, whether we have children or not, we all have mothers. According to a survey out today, nearly half the population ignored their mum's advice

until the age of 26 when they realised how valuable it was all along. So is that you? Have you ignored the advice your mum gave you as you were growing up only to look back and agree that it was actually good sense? Or have you decided you shouldn't have listened and gone in the opposite direction? Others said they only fully appreciated their own mothers only when they had children themselves. Well, I'm joined by Poppy Jay, co-host of BBC Sounds podcast, Brown Girls Do It Too, and writer and TV presenter, Denise Minna. Welcome, both of you. Poppy, I'm going to come to you first.

So did you ask for advice from your mother? Did you listen to your mum? Well, I'm Asian. I didn't ask my mum for advice. She constantly gave it to me, whether I liked it or not. And when you were just reading out that statistic, I add on another 10 years, 11 years, because I'm 37, and I'm only really listening to her now. Oh, wow. What's changed? Yeah. I think, you know, we are from a very typical immigrant working class family. She came when she was 19 in Asari to this very, very cold country. She was spoiled back at home in Bangladesh. And suddenly she's faced with a husband and in-laws and sister in-laws. So it was a huge adjustment for her. And I just didn't care. You know, we just did that typical thing where your mom says

one thing and you do the complete opposite. And it's only now really in my late thirties, it's really dawning on me how tough her life must have been you know she doesn't speak English even now she hasn't you know she's sort of not really adjusted to kind of British life I think I feel sorry for her I feel a lot of empathy I think she is I think that generation of women they're stuck you know that sort of auntie generation Anita you know I'm talking about absolutely they're in this kind of very strange time warp you know they, they left Bangladesh, India, Pakistan at a certain time. They've come to this new country, faced a lot of challenges. So now, and because of my empathy towards her, we get along a lot better.

I mean, it's a learning morning show, so I won't say too much, but we have a difficult relationship, let's just say, but it's got so much better. I mean, you talk about sex on your podcast. I'm sure it is a so much better i mean i mean you just you talk about sex on your podcast i'm sure it is a very as an asian woman i'm you know you're doing a great service and uh breaking a lot of boundaries i'm going to say the s word anita but yes we do so you can imagine being the asian woman be like oh she doesn't know to be honest all right that's another conversation she does now you know i'm gonna bring denise in denise was your mom right

all along did you listen to her were you a rebel or were you the good girl well you know I'm gonna bring Denise in Denise was your mum right all along did you listen to her were you a rebel or were you the good girl well you know my mum was very religious she was very catholic and she was an absolute top girl so she was a dolly bird and I was like 14 stone and had my head shaved and wore dms and she would tell me all this advice about how to trap a husband and how to keep men happy and stuff like that. And I was just like, mum, I'm not getting I don't believe in marriage. I don't know why you're telling me all this rubbish. And we really had nothing in common. But see what they're saying there, that when you have children, you suddenly feel real compassion for your parents.

Because I think lots of people look at their childhood and they think, I will never make those mistakes. And then you have kids and you're so tired. You kind of like this is actually really really hard and I have this theory that most people have children and they change one thing that their parents did like they don't send them to a rubbish private school or they don't make them play rugby but apart from that you pretty much reproduce all of it. Go on what did you change? Try to make them love you with food and uh well what did I change I stayed in one place because my parents moved around all the time and uh and I stayed in one place and stayed in one house which you know my son now thinks is incredibly boring but I just

thought a bit of consistency and also I tried to my mum was very glamorous and my dad was really flashy and they always had big cars and no house so I tried to do the opposite and he now thinks I'm a doughy idiot so maybe all parents are sort of flip-flopping backwards and forwards. Poppy where did you get your advice from then if you weren't listening to your mum when you were young? Well from myself I was very ill-informed myself and all my cousins that I grew up with and you kind of go along with what your friends say, with your social group and your mum's, this constant white noise in the background saying, I told you so, I told you so.

And she is right about a lot of things, but she's also wrong about a lot of things. She often does this thing and she says it to this day. She's like, you know how we have the saying, you learn from your mistakes. My mum has the complete opposite mantra because she wants you to just be perfect. And she like I'm telling you I'm giving you all these pearls of wisdom so you don't have to make mistakes and I'm just like and there's a big sort of language

barrier as well I mean there's a lot going on but I think right now our our lives are kind of converging I mean she doesn't understand she's not she doesn't appreciate my life choices but she will she will do and maybe that's, maybe that's a topic for another day, like trying to understand your daughters rather than thinking about mothers, but it is Mothering Sunday on Sunday. So hence the conversation. I want to thank you both Poppy J and Denise Minner for joining me and Brown Girls Do It Too. We'll be back live on stage at the Soho Theatre from the 23rd of May to June the 10th. Looking forward to that. Now, when you hear the name Annie Lennox, you might immediately think of dancing your heart out to Sweet Dreams Are Made of This and the iconic orange hair and suit that she wore to

all her music videos in the 80s. But for the last 15 years, Annie has been using her voice for activism, launching a charity called The Circle that connects women across the world and helps them empower and support each other. At the moment, The Circle is working with garment workers across the world, 80% of whom are women, to fight for a living wage. In an exclusive for Woman's Hour, I was lucky enough to speak to Annie alongside Ambassador for The Circle, Kalpana Akhtar.

I started by asking Annie what inspired her to use her influence to make a change for women. You know, I had been so privileged because Comic Relief had sent me to various women projects in Malawi and Uganda and South Africa, also Oxfam. And I had my whole paradigm shifted because I saw how girls were prevented from accessing education, how women were treated in these kind of life that we have in Western world is there is none. I mean, you know, very often I thought it's like going back to Dickensian times, you know, and coming from poverty, coming from disempowerment, coming from lack of legal rights, coming just from lack of everything. And it really, really affected me. And so when I came back to the UK from visiting these projects and seeing the difference where, you know, you have clean running water and you have access to so many things in general.

I realized, wow, you know, what can I do? What on earth can I do? I want to be an agent for change. And I felt that if I could have conversations with like-minded women, perhaps we could find some way because, you know, it's overwhelming. The challenge organically, but it really comes from basically the real passionate desire to connect with women who are massively disempowered in hundreds of countries around the world. You know, we basically, they can be invisible to us. And we want to make that visible. We want to connect bridges where there are divides. We want to shine light. And we want to support grassroots organisations that are really making changes in their own countries. And that's why you came up with this lovely two word phrase,

global feminist, which by the way, I think I was born a global feminist, so I'm absolutely on message. But what do you mean by that? Well, I am not the person who invented that term. It was created by an incredible feminist who is no longer with us, but Bell Hooks is the originator of the term. I discovered it and thought that describes exactly what the circle is trying to do. It's about the empowerment of women and girls. And it's about the empowerment

of women and girls everywhere around the world. Feminism is not only to be perceived from a Western perspective, that where glass ceilings are being broken in the offices, in the CEOs, all these empowered spaces. I feel, and people that identify with global feminism understand that feminism must go further. And that is what global feminism is about. It's an umbrella term. It's inclusive. It's diverse. It's everything really to me. I wasn't really back in the day. I didn't know the full potential of feminists. I didn't even describe myself back then as a feminist. Here in the West, that term was a little bit toxic. So people were embarrassed to use it. And it's only really in the last 10 years or so, with a lot of work from behind the scenes, that we've reclaimed the terminology, we use feminism again. because if we don't put global before feminism,

then people that live elsewhere, maybe in the developing world, in the countries like Bangladesh, et cetera, then it remains invisible. So we're pushing for this term, this usage of this term that can go both ways. You can use it. I can use it.

Men, very importantly, men have to understand what feminism is and embrace that too. Because if we don't have the support of men and the identification of feminism with men comfortably, then we're still just fighting for, you know, our own existence, if it were. There are, as you've said, there are so many issues, there are so many battles to fight. And I'm going to bring Kalpana in because I know you're sitting there. But before we do, Annie, just let's talk about the issue that you're here to highlight, which is that of garment workers getting a living wage, because of women who are at the very beginning of that long chain before it gets to us in the shops and the high streets who are not even getting funded. And the conditions are appalling. I mean, if you actually see the truth behind fast fashion, you will see the kind of reasons why Kalpona is fighting so hard just to establish the most basic human rights, workers' rights. Kalpona, I wanted to ask you about your life,

because you are an activist in Bangladesh. You're fighting for a living wage and you're fighting for rights within the garment industry. And as Annie says, it directly links to women in the West because we are wearing your clothes. We can't get enough of them. However, I want to know about the impact it's having on women in Bangladesh. But let's start by hearing your story because you were 12 years old. Is that right? When you started working in a garment factory? Why were you sent to work at 12? It was my father who was the primary owner in the family and he got ill.

So there wasn't anyone who can bring food in the table without my mother. So my mom, you know, despite having two two months infant, she left her home with us and she chose to be a factory worker. But she couldn't continue more than six months because of my baby sister, because of her illness, she needed to, you know, breastfeed. So she quit. And then we had a discussion in the family. And, you know, within overnight, I felt that I just grown up. I understood that I need to do something. And this is the last day of my school. So, you know, previous day I went to this school and following day in the morning, I was walking in the same street with my friends who, you know,

who just divided in one circle that they went to this school. I went, ended up my life in a factory. And it's all because we didn't have economic security and there wasn't any social protection for us. And how was the experience? What was it like going to work in the factory at 12? I mean, the very first day, it was a super cultural shock for me. I didn't see that many people together except the school animal day.

And I never, ever seen that the adults scream on adults with all the bad words. Like there was a verbal abuses in the factory and they're shouting, screaming. So I cried because, you know, it hurts me. And my first day ended up with a 16 hour shift which is which I never never thought of and these 16 hours I stood on my feet there wasn't any place to sit down when I went back home I I you know I hide my tears and pain because I completely knew why my mom had to send me to the you know factory and one thing years later that I I realized that I had to send me to the, you know, factory. And one thing years later that I realized that I had to end up my life in that factory in that age of 12 because my mom did not get the living wage.

So if she would be getting living wage when she started working, she could have a nanny to take care of my baby sister. She, you know, absolutely can send me and my brother to the school, rather than sending two of us to the factory. And I'm presuming quite a dangerous, terrifying environment for a child to be in? Absolutely. I mean, the environment was terrifying. I mean, you know, these buildings wasn't purposefully. There was only one stairs and no emergency door.

There was even fire in my factory. And we've been locked up in the production floor by saying that the fire will not come in the third floor. We hadn't had anything to protect ourselves during that time. And after screaming and crying, hours later, they opened the door and we all were rushed to, you know, evacuate the factory. But it was only one staircase, which was blocked.

Half of that was blocked by the merchandise. And many of my co-workers got stampeded. Luckily, no one died, but they were badly injured. So, yeah, I mean, it was a terrifying working condition. Like verbal, physical and sexual abuse was common. And that wasn't only in the factory. And for, you know, women, like for a female, for that young girl, the commute and community, those wasn't even safe for me.

So much to process, isn't there? And what were you making? I think we need to be able to relate to how this impacts us. You know, what type of clothes were you making in the factory? I mean, that time I was making like polo shirt, sweatshirt, the cargo pants. Those was like basic thing that I would be making. And T-shirt, of course. So I would be working over 400

hours in a month and only making six dollars so that was my life it is extreme poverty wages that I you know anyone can ever say so when did you find the courage and when did you decide that you wanted to fight to change the system so yeah so when I was like 14 and a half in one in a month my you know production managers they came or middle managers in general they came to us by saying that they will be paying us less for our overtime which they're absolutely paying less I mean already paying less so we said no you cannot do that it's not that you know I know or we knew that how much we're supposed to get it was because it was during Eid month and Eid is a big festival for our country especially for Muslims so I had a plan with that money like I wanted to buy new clothes

for my brother and my sisters and I wanted to know, buy a good meal for that big day. So I joined with the strikers. So it was 92 young, you know, my 92 male worker, and I was only female, young female worker who joined with them and called a strike for 2,000 workers. And after back and forth negotiation, we won the strike. In the first hand, 26 workers got fired without any severances. They rather, you know,

accepting that, they started finding people or organization who can help them. So they ended up finding an organization called AFLI, Asian American Free Labor Institute. So that organization was helping

a group of government workers to have their own independent union, educating workers on law. This is something very new I came to know. And they were helping with legal aid so workers can sue the factory owner for illegal termination. So educating you in what your rights are. Yes. Kalpana, what I'm interested in is what is it in you that decided you were going to be the one woman to stand up for your rights? They were all men and you. That's remarkable. I did hard work. I have a plan with that money. And I need to support my family with that money.

I mean, that is like a very basic thing I would know until I know the law. So when I came to know the law, that's a transformation. I consider this a second born for me. The first time I learned that my work shift is supposed to be eight hours. This is the first time somebody told me that you are a factory worker and there is a law that supposed to protect you there is a minimum wage there is a maternity leave the supervisor supposed to not kick you when you are sit down in the stool they should not be verbal or physically abuse you in the factory and something beautiful i learned that i have right

to organize and right to bargain with my respective factory owner on my wages on my rights and everything that's just blown my mind and I was like why not doing that so for in the following morning when I learned that it was like butterfly in my stomach I wanted to share that with my co-worker everyone got like energized and they said, let's do it. So we organized tours to that bargaining table. So it wasn't easy to become an organizer. So one evening with a gummy face, I went to my mom. I said, mom, do you think that I can do it? Because these people have a lot of money and power.

And I'm just young, like, you know, not even 15 years. I'm that girl. And something my mom said that is so beautiful and that is so inspiring that she said, you know, if there is injustice, someone can always stand up and speak out. If it is someone, then why not you so that you know that's my i call my mom as a powerhouse so my powerhouse given me that power that and adjust me every

single movement that yeah there is injustice and someone always can stand up and if it is someone why not me this story is incredible. You were 15 years old. I just need to remind our listeners that when you walked back in there to tell your fellow co-workers that you have rights, that you were 15 years old. And I love that story of your mum being the one to empower you. That makes a lot of sense. Annie, what Kalpana has just said there about going in,

and it takes one person, doesn't it? One person to say, I'm going to fight to create that spark amongst everyone else. True. This is true. I mean, you need someone who is determined and who is committed and who has the vision to create transformative change, which is, as Kalpana says, is never easy. And you have to be brave and you have to be courageous. But still, if you recognize that you can be that agent of change and you can galvanize other people around you that see the potential and see the possibility, it's amazing the kind of things that can actually change when you thought for centuries and centuries women and girls for example have been abused and taken advantage of in every single way just exactly

as Calpona said and we're just talking about one section here working in factories and Calpona I just want to share something personal with you which which is that my great-great-grandmother was working in a textile factory. When I was a little girl, we lived in a part of town. I'm Scottish. I'm from Aberdeen in the northeast coast of Scotland. And there was a huge textile factory right across the street from me. And in the old days, in the Victorian times, all the agricultural workers came into town to find employment. And, you know, with the Industrial Revolution, everything like that, things changed.

So young women were working in those factories, in the conditions exactly that you described. So I didn't even realise that until a few years ago when I was on this incredible programme. Who do you think you are? Yeah, life-changing. It was a life-changing experience for me. But to recognise that these are the connecting, you can find connecting points.

Western women in their ancestry, especially from poorer working-class backgrounds, will be looking back to discover that their grandmothers, their great grandmothers and before, have gone through the conditions that you are describing, Kalpona, and it's the changes, they can be made. And you are a champion of change. And we in the circle want to champion you and other women like you who are making those changes happen. Kalpana, your activism is amazing. You're now in your 40s, mid 40s, as you've been fighting the good fight for a long time, but at huge risk to yourself as well. You have been targeted,

haven't you? Many times. Yeah, it's not easy. you know. It's not easy to do activism here in Bangladesh or like many parts of the world. So my voice has been criminalized many times. I was in prison for a month with my co-workers, severely detained. And it was mental torture when I was in detention. So my co-workers was, you know, one of them was brutally disappeared and brutally tortured and beaten to death. So when I leave home in the morning, I cannot promise my family that I'll be safe back at home. It is that dangerous to doing the activism in here. There is no voice of expression. But one thing that what my mom says that energizes me and when you see these human faces like i saw my co i i suffered i saw my co-worker to suffering pretty much every day with low privileges with no union rights you know in a practical life with unsafe building

with no social protection uh with no uh i mean with gender with gender there's enormous gender gender-based violence in this country so when you see these every day your insecurity or all this trait really doesn't matter because i'm i'm i made commitment to me and to these people that I'll bring the differences, I'll make the differences in here, whatever I can. So I think I'm in my mid-40s, but I couldn't do even a fraction, yet we are fighting for living wage. So it's a long way to go.

I'll keep fighting. Oh, yeah. Oh, you will keep fighting. I can see that. And what does it mean to have global support? What does it mean to have the support of Annie? It is huge, the support. You know, it means that we are not alone. Like when I started organizing in that time, we didn't have any connection. I didn't know even that where these, you know, government goes, who buys them?

Do they have any responsibility? Do we need any support from them? But now, you know, any, the circle, you know, amazing women in the circle, I know them, you know. So all of them, their heart in the right place. And they really care about these women's and men's, of course, who is, you know, making clothes for them. So we submitted like, you know, during pandemic. And it's an amazing step has been taken before anyone do any legislation work circle did that and it is not for only the workers uh you know in in their country like when they have like all these successes it is also for the workers those are making clothes 24 7 obviously um ann, you are very active on social media as well

and it's a great way of connecting and seeing what people are up to. I've got to talk to you about a moment that I saw the other day because I've just fangled, haven't I, Kalpana, massively with Annie here. And you met Joni Mitchell the other day, Annie, and it was magic. Just magic. Just even that photograph of the two of you together. Explain what that moment meant to you. Oh, well, she actually was one of the,

well, maybe the exemplary female singer-songwriters for me when I was trying to discover who I was as an older teenager. I think I was like about 20 or so, and I first heard Joni Mitchell's music, it gave me a sense of possibility. And for me to meet Joni under the circumstances, which I'll tell you right now, Joni was being awarded the Gershwin Prize, the George Gershwin Prize, by the Library of the National Congress in America. It's a huge, huge honour.

And I think she, above all the singer-songwriters on the planet, is the one who most deserves it. So I can tell you, I've just come back from the most extraordinary, magical moment. For me, it was like full circle. And, yeah, I'm still kind of in awe of what I've just experienced it's been amazing it feels like there's a real sense of global urgency women are shouting from the rooftops whether that's the me too movement in America

whether that's what's happening in Afghanistan what what's happening in Iran at the moment. You know, you just look all over the world. Women are using their voices, but at great risk, at great risk. And that is the reality. So Kalpana, I would like to just say to you, you know, you've got the audience here. You've got a British audience listening to you on Women's Hour. Why is it important for us to be connected to your fight? What would you like to say to the British audience listening? I know that when you are a British audience, you are the consumers too. So when consumers hear the story of a factory worker or anyone from the ground, they're always in a dilemma.

Should we buy or we shouldn't buy? Sometimes they feel guilty. You know what I would say? Don't feel guilt. Transform your guilt with anger. And next time when you go to the store or buy online, ask more questions. Go beyond color, size, style, and price. Start asking a few more questions to the store manager that you wanted to know more about the worker who made this clothes for you.

How much they have been paid? Do they have a living wage? Do these workers have a voice at workplace? Is this workplace safe? If you can ask any of these two questions, I think that would be start ringing the bell in the boss's office. And that will make difference. You know, we need these jobs. Yeah. difference. You know, we need these jobs. In a production country, we need these jobs because it helps us to understand what is the economic freedom is.

But we want them with dignity. The fight I'm doing, I'm fighting for a job with dignity. And the first step of dignity is a living wage. So be with us. The Circle Ambassador Kalpana Akhtar there and Annie Lennox talking to me about their activism and their work with the Circle. And we've been talking about the advice that your mothers gave you when you were younger. There's a survey out that says actually we get to the age of 26

and figure out maybe our mums were right all along. Sandy says, clear up as you go along. My mum's frequent mantra as I began my cooking instruction from her in the 50s and 60s. I now use it in exactly the same tone of voice with the same edge of desperation as I view the kitchen devastation caused by my 33 year old son as he makes some marvellous meals when he visits. Well, you've taught him to cook. That's good. Eleanor says, just to join the conversation about mum's advice, last night my 18-year-old son

was working at the table on his artwork. I suggested to use the desk easel I got him for Christmas. Quite right. He said, no, point blank. I gently pushed him and set it up to show him

how his viewpoint of the artwork will change when it's perpendicular to his body position. I did art at school and have plenty of experience. His response, I hate it when you and have plenty of experience. His response? I hate it when you write. And he used the easel for the rest of the evening.

Oh, Eleanor, I can sense the satisfaction just from that message. And Gina says, my mum must have been snooping in my private papers. She sat on the edge of my bed and said, if you're gay, it will ruin your life. It didn't. I met the woman of my dreams and we forged an absolutely lovely life together. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Nao and I am so pleased to be back for series two of the Music and Meditation podcast. When I'm lying down, my eyes are closed and my hands on my heart. That's kind of who I am. I feel like I could speak to you all day.

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