Woman's Hour - Singer-songwriter Dodie, TikTok and domestic workers in the Middle East

Episode Date: May 10, 2021

How domestic workers in the Middle East are using the video sharing app TikTok to raise awareness of abuse. Louise Donovan from the Fuller Project tells us how she found these women and why they are turning to TikTok.Dodie has just released her debut album Build A Problem. At just 26 she has already made a name for herself as a singer and a writer amassing millions of fans through her Youtube Channel with her intimate singing style and honest unflinching videos. She joins Emma to play a song from her new album. Yolk & Aliens is a film project created and developed by four women including actor, Jane Horrocks and her daughter, musician, Molly Vivian. Set within what they call a 'personal memory shop' in central Brighton’s Dukes Lane, as part of this year’s Brighton Festival, it is a highly personal insight into families, love and memories. Several years in the making, the films explore multi-generational relationships between mother and daughter, Jane and Molly and between Jane and her mother, Barbara.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. It is the most primal relationship of all, the one with your mother. But if you had to analyse it in the cold light of day and then make a film about it, of your bond, how would it come across? The actor Jane Horrocks is looking at this both ways, at her relationship with her mother and her daughter. We'll discuss how that came out and whether creating such a thing is a good idea.

It could be very good for your relationship or it could, of course, have the opposite effect. Tell us about yours, though. Could you be honest enough with your mother to make a true representation of your relationship? Has your relationship improved or worsened over time? Do you think you'd have the same view of your bond? Perhaps it would come out very differently. Imagine making a film of your relationship with your mother. 84844 is the number you need to text how you think that would go down to Women's Hour.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us your views, your experiences, your stories through our website. We're also going to hear on today's programme some beautiful music from Dodie, a new artist who's grown her fame and honed her craft on YouTube. And we're going to learn how social media platform TikTok is unexpectedly giving voice to female domestic workers struggling in the Middle East. But keeping with the theme of relationships, let's look at the one that has been struggling for some time now, Labour and what were its

heartland supporters. We're hearing much today about Sakeer Starmer's reshuffle of his top team with women dominating the headlines in promotions and demotions. Rachel Reeves becomes shadow chancellor as Annalise Dodds is the new party chairman. She was with us last month denying she'd be removed from post. Speaking of being removed from post, Angela Rayner is no longer the party's chair but now shadow first minister of state along with several other roles and remains deputy leader. The change has been sparked by the largely dismal results for Labour in last week's elections, with questions now being asked about who it represents and what it stands for. Hundreds of councillors have been lost, as well as the once safe seat of Hartlepool.

But is the reshuffle actually going to make any of it more attractive to the voters it needs to win back? One person who backed Brexit and represented the Labour Party for 30 years before standing down in 2019 is Kate Hoey, now Baroness Hoey of Lyle Hill and Rathlin. She joins us now. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. I was struck by a quote from Graham Stringer MP, a fellow Brexiteer like you, Labour MP, who said, it is astonishing and surprising that there's not a single member of Keir Starmer's shadow cabinet who voted Brexit. I thought we should start there because I wonder how important you think that is. Well, yes, I agree with him, absolutely. And of course, for me, my falling out and feeling that the Labour Party had left its base came as a result of the referendum when the red wall seats, as we call

them up in the North and North East, voted so strongly to leave the European Union. And Labour had said that they would honour that, whatever happened in the referendum. And of course, as soon as the country voted to leave, Labour started a process of trying to stop it and delay it. And we saw that in Parliament over a very, very dreadful period of time when it was just feeling that everything could be done possible to stop it. Now, I think that made it extenuated and increased the feeling amongst a lot of people that Labour was not listening to them and had left them and that they could no longer feel that politicians, if they did feel that politicians said the truth, that they could

believe them because Labour reneged. And of course, Keir Starmer himself was the person who first moved that we should support a people's vote and go for a second referendum. And I think that was absolutely the turning point or the final turning point in that relationship. And Graham is quite right. I mean, he's still in Parliament. He's very isolated. There used to be a few of us in there fighting away for Brexit. Gisela Stewart, Caroline Flint, a number of people. And then once the election came, I'm afraid the members in there seem to have forgotten all about Brexit, what happened, and have not really tried to restore that relationship with people who feel completely abandoned and let down.

Women are dominating the changes or reshuffles of position. It wasn't as dramatic, perhaps, as some thought it was going to be. But again, do those women, do you think, connect? Because there's a lot of arguing about which part of the party you're from. But there was also another, I think it was a tweet from Hugo Rifkin, the journalist over the weekend, saying, how can Labour expect anyone to love it when it doesn't seem to love itself? Yes, I think that's, again, quite right.

I mean, but more importantly, even, is the feeling that Labour doesn't really love the country. You know, they want to be MPs. They want to be running the country, that they spend a lot of their time actually being, you know, saying things that are not supportive of the country. And we've seen that over a number of sort of cultural issues over the last few years which means that for a lot of people you know who get up in the morning and just want to get off to work if they could during the pandemic

and if they they just want to have have a party that is reflecting how they feel about things and somehow Labour has gone away from that and. And you get the feeling all the time that they're talking to themselves about issues that are actually only important to really a small minority of the country in terms of where they come from, and particularly this idea that it's very, very London centric. And even though a number of the shadow cabinet are are are from um outside london they have a feeling that they're still now associated with london and the kind of metropolitan establishment view of of what is important and many of those things are not important to people trying to run their lives and under very difficult circumstances but i suppose just

as you talked there about um the personnel or started to come on to that about what they care about, it sounds like, as what you've painted as the picture of Graham Stringer being isolated, that there aren't many people for Keir Starmer to pick from who could execute what you're talking about. Are you saying you sort of need to clear this whole generation out and then maybe Labour can start again? Or what do you think he can do now because he can't rewrite history? Well, I think he could himself personally become much more kind of proactive. And

I mean, being honest, I suppose show a bit more personality. Because, you know, everyone, you know, all those people who criticised the Prime Minister and, you know, for being all the things that they criticise him about, you know, the reality is, and I saw it myself when I was in London as a sports commissioner, he can get out there and actually go and talk to a group of people who maybe have never voted Conservative in their life and kind of make them feel that he's actually genuinely listening to them. And I don't think we've got a leader who can do that.

I mean, I don't think we've had a leader who can do that. I mean, I don't think we've had a leader who can do that since Tony Blair. And I mean, I'm not a fan of Tony Blair, but we did have a party at one stage that genuinely seemed to represent the areas that MPs came from. Now, what's happened over a period of time is that more and more MPs are coming into Parliament without having any real length of time working, you know, in the real world, as you would say. So they come in from university, they get a job perhaps as a, you know, working for an MP, then they get into being a special advisor, and then they become an MP.

And I think many of them have actually lost touch, although they shouldn't if they're in touch with their own constituencies, but they have lost touch with that overview of the country and what people are thinking. And Keir has a very difficult job now, because you're right, he doesn't have a lot of people to choose from. But I think he's got to be more radical. And he's got to start off by genuinely making people feel that he really is patriotic. And there's a difference between being patriotic and nationalist, but being patriotic. And that didn't come across. I mean, the idea of taking the knee, you know, was just so stupid.

And that picture will haunt him for the rest of his life, no matter what people feel and how strongly you feel about racism. That was not the way a future prime minister should have been behaving. Why not? Well, because it was implying that the country generally was racist. It was implying that the only way you could kind of fight racism and bring about equality was pander to a well-organized group of people who had set themselves up as some kind of defenders of everything to do with race, when actually many, many of them were completely out of touch and were not aware of just how much

has happened in the country in terms of changing our attitudes. It's all very well talking about the history, but if you go along with allowing people to get away with knocking down statutes, what do you expect people to feel? Well, they would argue, I'm sure, those who associate themselves with the Black Lives Matter movement and those who support them and support Labour, that that was an excellent thing for him to do, but that is your view of how that will have been. Yes, that's my view, yes, and I think that would be... Well, that is your view of how that will be. Yes, that's my view. Yes. And I think that's well, that's your view of how it will be received.

I just wonder, though, are you able in terms of relationships, mending relationships, are you able to bring yourself to vote for Labour now? Did you? Oh, no, no. I mean, I once they changed their view. I mean, I always felt Labour in the last five to 10 years had grown away from me rather than me leaving Labour and the kind of values and so on. When I joined, things were very different and there was a lot more feeling that trade unionists mattered. Real, genuine working class people were in Parliament. And no, now I think it would take an awful lot to change before I could feel that Labour was going to really stand up for the kind of things that I believe in. Do you think they can do it?

They have got to change. I was just going to say, speaking as someone who therefore does need to be convinced and had huge love for the Labour Party, which lots of our listeners may also find themselves feeling in that way, albeit differently, having not worked for it, what would he have to do to win you back? Or do you not think Keir Starmer can do it? I don't personally think Keir Starmer can do it. I've always thought that when you lose an election

so badly, as we did in 2019, that it takes at least one more, you know more term of a change and another election and another leader. And so I think that Keir is probably his only way that he could do is to kind of stabilise things at the moment, make sure things don't get any worse. And then, you know, I would hope that there are a number of people, unfortunately, two of the probably the strongest contenders are not in Parliament at the moment. One of them being Caroline Flint, who unfortunately lost her seat. And the other is Andy Burnham. And those are both people who I believe could restore the Labour Party to a fee so that people in the country where they have lost support would feel that finally there were people in there who understood what they were thinking and what they wanted. Two names to perhaps look to for the future.

Kate Hoey now, Baroness Hoey, thank you for your time. A message here saying that Labour is stuck in the 80s, but another message here saying how about the millions of Romanians who desperately want Labour to tell the truth about the horror of Brexit. So different views. Why are you only giving a platform here? Labour Party still stuck in the 80s. There are platforms out there.

Excuse me, their policies are outdated. I'm afraid it will never come into the 21st century. Where are the Remainers represented in the Tory Cabinet, asks Judith. And how can you not support Black Lives Matter if you're part of a progressive party? Reads that message just come in from Sarah. Keep your messages coming in along those lines. But I asked you also about your relationships with your mother and how they would come across in a film.

How would it play out? Fireworks? A relatively calm love story? Hate story? Somewhere in between? Let's see how it's worked out for someone who's taken the plunge. The actor Jane Horrocks, probably best known for playing Bubbles in Absolutely Fabulous, has taken on her most personal film to date with her daughter, the musician Molly Vivian, as part of this year's Brighton Festival. It's called Yolk and Aliens and explores grandmother, mother and daughter relations. Jane and Molly, join me together now from Brighton. Good morning to you both. Morning.

Let me come to you first, Jane. Yoke excuse me and aliens let me get the name right why is it called Yoke and Aliens uh well York being um to do with birth um and the beginnings of life um York focuses on um Molly my daughter's formative years from birth till the age of six. So yeah, the egg being represented. The egg part. And the aliens part fits in how? Because the second film, Aliens, focuses on my mum and her Alzheimer's, actually. And she had various hallucinations, which she was able to talk about. Now she's not able to discuss what she sees because she's too far down the line.

But when she was able to discuss these things, she described things that she saw, which to me seemed like they were aliens. Yes, and also, I mean, we talked about this before on the programme, but people becoming remote from one another during that process of losing someone while they're still with you. I know that you always have kept a diary, Jane, and it's parts of that that the audience hear as the piece progresses. Let's briefly hear some of that from Aliens, which does focus on your mum, Barbara. I ordered sticky toffee pudding for us all to share.

Mum took a spoonful and put it in her coffee. She looks like she's walking on Mars a lot of the time. She literally looks like she's stepped off the spaceship into an unknown world. Her expression is so otherworldly and disorientated. Tell us about that, Jane. What's happened? Do you mean about those readings? Yeah, so what was going on there with your mum? Because there's humour and sadness together, isn't there? Yeah, I mean, it's about the progression, really, of Alzheimer's.

And just seeing that, I wasn't my mum's carer. So I was seeing my mum not on that regular a basis. So when I did see her, the change was massive each time I saw her. I mean, I don't mean that I wasn't seeing her at all, but, you know, like a month would go by. And then, yeah, the change was really dramatically different. And it was this expression which, I mean, I filmed my mum sitting in her living room

which is the footage that's used in Aliens and her expression in that bit of footage is so lost and confused of I really don't know why I'm here what what is this world what what who are you what what is this um and i think that that's what um myself and francesca levi who's done um who's the video artist that i've been working with um have tried to capture um what is going on in the in in the brain of somebody suffering from Alzheimer's. And sometimes these moments of lucidity, which are surprising, you think, I mean, for example, I spoke to my mum, she's in a care home a few days ago, and she said, oh, hello, where are you at the moment? It was like, gosh, that's my mum speaking.

She's come back. She's just there for a moment. Because I know we're looking at this relationship two ways now and looking down to your daughter or through onto that relationship. Molly, let's bring you into this. Good morning. How did you feel when your mum suggested trying to look at your relationship like this?

I mean, it was quite a while ago now. It was probably in 2018 so uh at the time i just saw it as a huge opportunity to explore something interesting and offer people a piece of art basically and and do you see your how would you describe your relationship what have you learned and do you see it the same way um i 100 see it the same way and I think it's just um it the way that you're describing it it sounds like a process uh to do with our relationship but actually I think it's been a lot more of a um I think it's been a lot more focused on my relationship with my grandma as opposed to my relationship with my mum um and what Jane what would you say about your relationship with your daughter?

Have you looked at it any differently by trying to put it into this artistic process? Because I don't think some of our listeners, for instance, we've got a message here from Vicky who says, my mum's great, but I've stopped telling her anything personal about my life because of her negative comments. I wish they didn't bother me, but the comments stick in my brain and have a big effect on me. It doesn't sound like they're up for doing this sort of project anytime soon.

Yes. Well, I mean, I experienced that with my mum because she kind of shut down when she was much more with it. She kind of withdrew into a very small world. And that was very frustrating for me because I could see that you know this onset of Alzheimer's and I could see that she could possibly help herself a little bit by um opening up her world um but she was very negative about everything in the same sort of way um but now I've come to terms with the fact that that was her choice. And, you know... Did you make a conscious effort to parent differently because of that? I know you've also got a son,

but you wanted this to be about the female relationships. Yeah, I mean, I think I struggle with control, as my mum did, within our family. And now I think my son still lives at home um but Molly and my son Dylan are very independent beings um uh my mum taught me freedom and that's what I've tried to give to my children um that they are actually free to be who they want to be. And I think that's kind of what I've learned from my mum. I think since Molly has left home, that's really important that she's allowed to be who she is.

Do you work in the same way, Molly? Has your mum got a similar approach to you? Or do you file it a bit late, as it were? you go sail close to the wire when you get stuff done or how did you find working together um wait would you mind rephrasing well no i was wondering if you work in the same way you know are you for instance i'm imagining you know if one of you is a great planner and one of you does things more last minute or actually just working together is quite different I imagine yeah we are definitely complete opposites in that respect that has definitely been um a challenge but still you know anything good any good piece of art I think is always a challenge and if it's not then you

know it doesn't show in the same way Jane well yes it is frustrating because uh you know i like to have everything organized like i say i struggle with control so um i do like everything pieced together and ready to go and and it is it is um yeah frustrating sometimes but again i have to let that go and think well this is the way that molly. She does leave everything to the last minute and then she comes up with the goods and she does come up with the goods. But in a different way to how I come up with the goods. Well, many messages coming in around this. Thanks for taking us into some of that process. Yolk and Aliens can be seen as part of the Brighton Festival from the 17th of May. And that was Jane Horrocks there with her daughter Molly Vivian

the musician a message here from Amanda says finished reading Motherwell by Deborah Orr only yesterday I'd love to read that I've still not done so struck by its insightful honesty and description has started to make me think of the relationship with my mother who passed away 10 years ago but I don't think I'd like to revisit our bonding process now I'm getting a sense of that and still messages coming in about the relationship with Labour. Just want to say here, absolutely no recognition of the Welsh Labour Party's success during the discussion with Kate Hoey. The party seems to be well in touch with voters in Wales, a point worth making there. And loving hearing the details just coming back to

relationships closer to home on the complex relationships between daughters and their mothers. also upsetting. I've been estranged. It seems increasingly common with my age for a myriad of reasons, but usually damage of some sort, says Lisa. And of course, if you've missed any of Woman's Hour, you can catch up on those sorts of discussions, of which we've had many over the years, on BBC Sounds.

But to bring you something else completely, and something you may not have heard about, how TikTok is helping domestic workers in the Middle East, because they've been using the social media platform to open up about their lives and crucially, the poor working conditions that they're experiencing. TikTok, more commonly associated with jokey, upbeat short clips set to music, has found itself having a new purpose here. The vast majority of these migrant workers, we should say, are often women and they are employed through a controversial sponsorship system that gives their employers almost total control over every aspect of their lives. They're unable to move jobs or leave the country without permission from their employers.

How has TikTok been able to help, perhaps, in some way then? Louise Donovan is a journalist for The Fuller Project, which is a non-profit newsroom focusing on exposing injustices against women. Louise, welcome to the programme. Thank you. Tell us about some of these women and how they're using the platform. Yeah, so I didn't know what I was going to find. I didn't even know if they were domestic workers were using TikTok. But, you know, they sort of fall into two pockets.

You've got women who are just like everyone else, just like me and you, who are on there, you know, for fun and for entertainment. And, you know, they just want to escape their day-to-day lives a year and a half into a pandemic. But then there's another pocket of women on there who are, you know, they are really seeking to spread the word of their sort of often dire working conditions. You know, this is, this can be physical abuse. It can be verbal abuse. This could often be sexual abuse. And so many are using TikTok, you know, to really tell the world how they're being treated, even though it could potentially be dangerous to do so. Just so we can imagine it, radio being somewhere where you have to paint it for people.

What sort of videos are how would, how would you film that? How would you show that? Yeah, so there's one of the main women in my story. She's called Brenda and she's from Kenya. So she moved to the Gulf a couple of years ago now. And in one of her viral videos, she's sort of dressed in this like crisp pink uniform and she's got a headscarf on and she's lip-syncing to like a it's like a parody version of a song called Renee by this American

band called Sales um and so you can imagine this of your your screen and like a word is popping up and this word is freedom and she's sort of batting it away and then another word pops up you know like a single day off she's batting it away You know, a peaceful life without quarrels or insults. And again, she's batting that away. You know, and this video has got nearly a million views. It's got over nearly six thousand comments. But I think interestingly about Brenda's videos, you know, they're often tinged with sarcasm you know a lot of it is quite dark humor um and she's using that dark humor to sort of really dissect some of these weighty issues facing a lot of these domestic laborers how would you know though that she is in this situation

that we're describing does she is her profile detailing that because i'm thinking about safety from their perspective yeah i mean she her whole profile is detailing her life in the golf um you know not everything is talking about these often tough working conditions you know sometimes she's just making a joke or she's just like documenting her dinner you know she's doing what a lot of other people are doing on there which is just talking about their day-to-day lives um but you know but then a lot of her videos are talking about these exploitative conditions you know in another video she's sort of role-playing her and her employer um and she's dressed up as her employer and she says that her employer accused her of stealing stealing from her um you know and she says that that's because she's from Africa and

she's a migrant and you know that's that's she just presumes that it would it was her and you know um so there's a lot there's a lot of um she details a lot of the the conditions on there could any of them face any ramifications for posting this sort of material yeah I mean it's a very real risk like you mentioned this kafala system at the start which gives their employer you know almost total control and this leaves these women very vulnerable you know there's often abuses happening uh and sort of at the same time you know in some parts of the middle east taking pictures and videos inside an employer's home and posting them online specifically without their employer's permission um could lead to criminal charges or deportation.

You know, women, when they leave, is predominantly from Africa and Asia, when they leave and they head to the Gulf, you know, they sign employment contracts. They're working under labour laws. And these labour laws stipulate specifically that they should protect the secrets of the household. And if you're then posting videos and pictures online on social media without permission, I mean, this could lead to trouble. And it has done, you know, women have been deported over this. And when you were looking at this for your piece, which I believe also you published through the Follow Project, but also on The New York Times. Is that right?

Yes. Is that sort of consideration, obviously, you're then trying to help because you're shining a light on it, but it's getting that balance between too much publicity for them and keeping them safe and also shining that spotlight. Yeah, definitely. And I think the key thing is here is, you know, some of the women that I spoke to in my story, there's a woman from the Philippines who makes these sort of like scripted series. series are like these short vignettes and she acts out scenarios between her and employer her and her employer her employee knows about them and you know and has given permission for her to do that and that provides a level of safety you know a level of i'm not going to lose my job i'm not going to be deported but then for others you know there is there is a real risk and you know we spoke to brenda and you know she was aware of the risks and she thinks it's an important tool and she really wants to spread awareness. And she really wants to raise the issues and, you know, highlight the realities of life working in the Gulf.

Will it actually help in any way, though? I suppose that's the most important question, because it's one thing to find clever ways to show and tell your story, but it's another thing for things to actually change. Yeah, I mean, definitely. I mean, I think the thing is, domestic workers have often used social media to speak to people back home, to keep in contact. But, you know, previously, they would have been Facebook groups. So you would have known where you're going. You would have known that there's a domestic worker organisation if you needed help, for example. Or it would be on WhatsApp.

You know, there's specific WhatsApp groups for, you know, if you do need help. I think the thing about TikTok is that, you know, it's a public platform. And because of its algorithm, you know, anyone can come across these videos. Anyone can find it and anyone can start learning about this you know in brenda's comments um you know it's not just people working and living in the gulf saying you know i've got a domestic worker as well i treat her well um you know you've got women from america and the uk and the netherlands saying wow this is really

interesting i didn't know that this was happening. Please tell me more. How can I help? You know, she's had job offers through TikTok, you know, whether they're legitimate is another thing. But, you know, it's getting the message out beyond just people who are living and working in the Gulf to people, you know, outside of that, who perhaps didn't know that this was a thing that was happening.

So perhaps there could be work opportunities. You have to sort of stay with that and see what happens. But how has the pandemic also affected these women's lives? Yeah, so, I mean, because of this sponsorship system, these women often live in their employer's home. So, you know, their food is from their employer, their accommodation is from their employer. And, you know, they often, because they work long days and they're not getting time off and they're not getting breaks. You know, they're often very lonely. They're not seeing many other people. And I think like the rest of us, we've been stuck inside that a lot of these domestic workers have told me that, you know, their mental health has got worse.

You know, they're anxious and they're depressed. And they say that going on to TikTok and looking at other women's videos, you know, their mental health has got worse. You know, they're anxious and they're depressed. And they say that going on to TikTok and looking at other women's videos, you know, and they're documenting similar experiences that they're going through, you know, it sort of alleviates that loneliness and that like emotion, you know. They're really creating a community on there and they're really like, they're really sharing their experiences.

Has Brenda told you or any of the other women you managed to speak to what their end goal is? Have they got, I don't know if it's a certain amount of money that they have to reach to send home or a certain stage of life that they would try and change anything by having spoken to other women? How long do these arrangements go on for that they're away from home? So they typically last for about two years. On average, you'll sign a contract for two years and you'll be there. I mean, of course, you're not allowed to leave or change jobs before that

without your employer's permission. But, you know, they tend to go on for about that long. And then women can either decide to stay and continue with that employer. They can, you know, they can go home and go home and come back out again. But these jobs are, you know, really lucrative for some of these women. And Brenda, for example, you know, she back home, she was a teacher. You know, she's highly educated. She's finished college. You know, but her salary was too low. And in the gulf she can earn two three four times as much um and these jobs in the gulf

they really keep the sort of the humdrum of life going you know they're cleaning people's homes and they're driving the cars and they're cleaning the streets um and you know you know many of the women they're scrolling through these funny videos and you know it's just a way to ease their loneliness and and as you say as you say talk to a lot of other people who may have absolutely no idea about what's going on and and reach them in different way and find a different community just finally I mean do you think there's any have you had any reaction from any of those who who are the employers around perhaps you know this is the age of shame as well as much as sharing I mean I haven't heard specifically from any of the employers um but I know that you know lots of people read the New York Times article and they headed over to

Brenda's TikTok video and um they've been commenting even more and trying to engage with her and they've been asking questions and you know and she wants to raise awareness of those dire working conditions. And, you know, you write a story about it and you've got people from all over the world going and heading there and asking more questions and she can talk about that. And that's really just what she wants to do. Louise Donovan from The Fuller Project. Thank you for that and bringing those insights to us.

I'm now joined by Dodie. Let's have a bit of music, shall we? Because she's just released her debut album, Build a Problem. We've just been talking about the power of social media. And at just 26, she's already made a name for herself as a singer and writer, amassing millions of fans through her YouTube channel with her intimate singing style and her honest, very creative, unflinching videos. She's headlined shows in America, Europe, Australia, and has a UK tour planned later this year. And she's also an ambassador for the depersonalisation charity Unreal. Good morning.

Good morning. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. And I thought we could start actually with a track from the new album. Let's have a listen. Well, Dodie, that one's called Hate Myself. And you've got an amazing voice. Why with that? What are you saying there? Yeah, it's an interesting title, an interesting concept. I'm really enjoying bringing it to interviews and so on and people kind of talking about it who wouldn't usually talk about it.

It's about attacking yourself when someone else deals with their problems privately um and you uh yeah you turn it in on yourself and sort of blame blame yourself because i mean this actually speaks to though the fact that you've really you share a lot online don't you and and there's a lot of reaction to that and how how have you found that whole process? Well, I used to share more. I was younger and, yeah, the internet seemed like a great place to just pour your life out.

And then I grew up a little more and learned what boundaries are. And now I certainly share a lot in my music, but I don't talk as openly about those topics. But I don't think I have to anymore because it's all there. Well, it's all there, but I don't think I have to anymore because it's it's all there well it's all there but I did mention and I think this is just worth sort of talking about straight away really that depersonalization and that you're the the ambassador for the charity to do with that you've got a condition called depersonalization disorder can you tell us what that is sure um so depersonalization um well there's a symptom of dissociation which i think a lot of

people have experienced it kind of goes hand in hand with depression or panic it's when your brain sort of disconnects from reality as a way to try and cope um and i think everyone's felt that maybe if they've been very jet lagged or or in shock or um yeah it's a familiar feeling but depersonalization is when your brain sort of does that always um it feels like a chronic thing some people get it in in bouts of a few months or maybe years or so I've had it constantly for I think about 10 years now yeah and what what does that mean kind of day to day especially also as you're you're creating um honestly it feels like i call it like a line in my life there's like a before and after of being spaced out that's the term i use a lot it basically just feels like a wire's been left unplugged physical symptoms are i just

feel like i can't wake up i can't see enough i just feel really out of it um and drunk all the time but not not in a good way. Not in a good way. OK, fine. I've tried to imagine that because you obviously are productive and you're able to work. Do you take anything for it? Is there anything that can help? I have tried so many things. I have like a little checklist. I've tried TMS, transcranial magnetic stimulation i've tried antidepressants um a variety of therapies i now just have regular therapy and i'm trying to deal with you know some earlier trauma which is probably what's causing it i was going to say is there is there a known cause um yeah a lot of people get it from uh complex trauma um because yeah

it's just kind of like a subconscious way to disconnect and protect yourself but a lot of people also get it from smoking weed or taking drugs of some kind because it can kind of like trigger your brain into that into that symptom and then it's kind of hard to get out of it. Do you know what it was with you have you got as you say you've got this before and after? Yeah I'm not entirely sure there was a particularly tricky year when a lot of things happened um and uh yeah I think my brain just sort of sort of uh gave up I I like to think of it as protection because then it feels a little more healthy than than um attacking myself but yeah well I mean I was thinking also looking at some of your music

and some of the videos that have gone alongside it they do some of them do have a real surreal quality to them do you think it's influenced your work the sort of the state of of how you you look at the world and how you feel yeah definitely um I think yeah my my mental health kind of goes hand in hand with my music because it's so entwined into my life and that is a good thing you know I'd rather not but if I have it I might as well you know try and try and make something out of it and and talking about it as well it kind of it feels good to kind of gain control over mental health and and yeah uh treat it with kindness. Well, you are going to very kindly play something for us today. Before you do, I think it's always lovely to hear from the artist

about what it is about, even though the lyrics should help. I kissed someone and it wasn't you. Tell us. Yeah, this song is about a kind of combination of things, really, not one main incident. But I guess the song is written about kissing someone after a breakup and it just feeling so lonely. But also I think I use it as a way to explore using your sexuality in order to soothe loneliness and it just not going the way you want it to. Has it been hard during lockdown on that front, but also to create?

In terms of mental health? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think I went through a similar wave to everyone else, which was, you know, wow, I've got so much time. I'm going to start writing and writing and writing. And then the third lockdown happened and I sort of gave up. That's the one for people who seem to have been OK, perhaps up until then, that really hit very hard. I mean, of course, like, it's, yeah, how could you not?

It's a perfect petri dish for growing mental health problems. Well, let's take ourselves out of ourselves with your beautiful voice and creativity I kissed someone it wasn't you by Dodie Dodie why don't you take it away all right I kissed someone it wasn't you leaning in like you oh I got the words wrong. I'm so sorry. I'm going to start again.

The charm of life. Okay. I kissed someone. It wasn't you. Leaning in like I'm supposed to do. I pulled away and I gasped for him. I didn't feel a single thing I kissed someone it wasn't me Locked inside a fantasy All worked up for something dead I think it's time to go to bed Put me in a car

I just want to go home now Put me in a bath I forget you are gone now I know, now I know, now I know now I know now I know now I kissed someone because it's fair well do I tell you

would you care so deeply hurt you beg for help Or are you kissing someone too? Put me in a car I just want to go home now Put me in a bath I forget you are gone now I know, now I know, now I know

I kissed someone, it wasn't you Leaning in like you were supposed to do this was what I waited for but it just made me miss you more Thank you. Thank you so much. Dodie, that was great. And from your debut album, Build a Problem, there's Dodie there with a song that I'm sure you'll remember now you've heard it and possibly look up more. I Kissed Someone and It Wasn't You. Lovely to have you on the programme. Thank you. And it's great to always hear the stories behind some of the songs. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.