Woman's Hour - Singer-songwriter Holly Humberstone. Lockdown family pressures. BPAS not for profit IVF Clinic.

Episode Date: January 8, 2021

We hear from the singer-songwriter Holly Humberstone who's the runner up in the BBC Sound of 2021. Caroline Aldridge's eldest son Tim had a bipolar disorder and he passed away before he could access treatment. She’s talks about her book "He Died Waiting " which outlines why she thinks mental health services failed him. We unveil new data showing the pressures facing families over school closures and managing paid work. Plus why the British Pregnancy Advisory Service has announced it will open a not-for-profit IVF clinic later this year in Central London. Presenter Andrea Catherwood Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. I'm Andrea Catherwood. Good morning. For 50 years, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service has been helping women terminate pregnancies. Now they're going to help create them. It's opening the UK's first not-for-profit IVF clinic. I'll be asking their new CEO, Claire Murphy, why? Well, yesterday's poetry went down so well on the programme that I am hoping you will enjoy meeting a young singer and songwriter

who began by putting her own poetry to music. At just 20, she's already played Glastonbury and has been named runner-up in BBC Sound 2021. She says her lyrics must pass the tattoo test. We'll be finding out exactly what that means a little bit later. But first, Covid does not affect us all equally. We know that. The poorest and most vulnerable in society have been hardest hit.

We've also become used to seeing some pretty stark figures in recent months, and I'm afraid I've got another one. Mothers on the lowest incomes are eight times more at risk of losing their jobs when schools close compared to higher income parents. And women working part-time are particularly likely to be affected.

It's just part of a report published today showing the pressures that are facing families juggling homeschooling and paid work. Now I wonder if this is something that you've actually experienced. Have you had to give up work or take leave to look after your kids, leave without pay perhaps? Are you struggling to combine paid work from home along with child care and teaching your children please do let us know i'd love to hear your experiences you can text us on 84844 or on social media it's at bbc woman's hour now the woman's budget group is one of the organizations involved in this report on the impact of lockdowns on working parents its director director, Marianne Stevenson, joins me now,

as does Claire Wenham, who is co-lead of Gender and Covid at the London School of Economics, where she is assistant professor in global health policy. Welcome, both of you. Marianne, can I just start by asking you to explain what is going on here? It's quite a kind of headline grabbing figure that women, particularly those women who are on the lowest incomes,

are actually at such a high risk of losing their jobs. Yes, I mean, this was based on a poll that we did before Christmas. And one of the questions we asked parents was what would happen if your school closed or your child wasn't able to go to school because they were sick and there was a number of different options in terms of being able to take unpaid leave taking paid leave working flexibly and so on but one of the questions was that people

thought that they would be unable to take leave and it would be a risk of losing their job and what we found was that parents earning under £20,000 were, as you said, vastly more likely than those earning over £40,000 a year to say that they thought that they would be at risk of losing their job. Now, it is also true, isn't it, that women are more likely not to be able to work from home than men? Again, that's one of the things that our polling showed, that women said they were less likely to be able to work from home than men. Is that because of the kind of jobs they do? Yes, because women are vastly more likely to be key workers, for example. If you think about health and social care sectors both are very very female dominated as is for example supermarket

workers checkout workers so many of those women won't you know won't be able to work from home won't be able to stay at home at the moment. Now I also noticed that women are twice as likely to take unpaid time off work to look after sick children or help with schooling that's twice as likely as as men and that's again quite a stark statistic and i wonder why that is well we know that even before the pandemic women did 60 percent more unpaid work in the home including care work amended and what happened during the first lockdown is the amount of unpaid work done by men increased slightly, and the amount of unpaid work done by women increased vastly. And this is looking after children, home educating. This is also the additional housework

that having children at home full time creates, you know, having to cook an additional midday meal, there's more clearing up because the kids are around all the time and so on. And we know that particularly when it came to housework, women were far more likely to do that, doing kind of 60 to 70% of different areas of housework. Claire Wenham, if I can bring you in here. We know these figures from previous lockdowns. Presumably your thinking is that it remains the same this time round.

Absolutely. We've got no reason to think it's not going to change. Now, we did some research in the first lockdown and we found very similar statistics and findings to the report by Women's Budget Group. We know that women are doing most of the childcare. They're doing most of the non-developmental childcare, as Marianne talks about. Yeah, just explain what non-developmental childcare means. Well, they're doing all the stuff you need to do to keep children alive.

They're cooking the meals, washing the clothes, giving them baths. They're doing all the kind of additional stuff that you need to do. Whereas we found men were doing more of the developmental stuff. They were the ones more likely to play games with their kids. And so, you know, as we we know men are doing slightly more but women are doing all the kind of hard grunt which doesn't get the reward from it as well now with those are that's talking really about uh parents when you know households with two parents what about single parents the vast majority of single parents are women and presumably the pressures around staying in work and looking after children can be even more extreme what do we know about that absolutely well some research from gingerbread

in the uk showed that one in 10 single parents lost their jobs in the last lockdown and one in three were furloughed and we saw increasing rates of poverty among single parents and of children of single parents go up at this time because simply you know particularly single parents of primary age children they're fundamentally not able to you know homeschool and look after a child and work at the same time and so they had to make very difficult decisions about how to juggle this and we found not only were some giving up work or having to be furloughed but also otherwise they were just working all around the night you know getting up very early to start work before their kids wake up in the morning and then working late in the night and completely exhausting themselves. We found across the board, across all women in our research, you know, mental health and anxiety and stress has skyrocketed, particularly amongst working parents.

Yes, I wanted to talk a bit about mental health because, I mean, I'm sure that some people listening today are feeling almost the opposite. The problem in this pandemic is that they're lonely and isolated, whereas for working parents, it can be really the problem that you never find a chance to have a moment to yourself in a full house and that your work is never done. You're spreading yourself far too thinly to meet the competing needs of your employer and your children. What impact is it having on the mental health and well-being of mothers? Actually, this was the most resounding agreement that we had across our data set, which was, mental health concerns and stress has gone up amongst working mothers, regardless of socioeconomic demographic at the moment.

Interesting what data is showing in New Zealand though is that anxiety during the pandemic is inversely proportional to age so it's the younger women and it's women who've got young children who are more stressed out than older women in that sample which is quite interesting and it's the people who are trying to do everything at the same time, as opposed to those who might have older children who aren't needing to be so present with the homeschooling, for example, or actually make sure the children are safe at all times in theemics. And here we are in lockdown three. Obviously, we're desperately hoping that we don't have another one, but, you know, we just don't know. So I want to move on to talking about what actually can be done. Are there policy decisions that the government could make now

that would actually change things, that could actually make any of these issues better? Marianne, let's start with you. Yes, there are. And I think Claire and I have both talked about these similarly in the last week or so. Oh, I'm very sorry, Marianne. Parents do have the right to be... Okay, we're just having a slight issue.

Just try and talk again because we're just having a slight issue with your connection. And I'm afraid, I'm so sorry, I'm afraid it's frozen for us at the moment claire could i go on to ask you the same question and we'll try and get marianne back absolutely so i mean one of the key things that the government could be doing is making sure that it's a legal requirement that employers provide furlough for parents of school age. At the moment, that's at the discretion of employers to offer. So we need to make sure that's a legal requirement and employers can't deny parents furlough if they need to be looking after their children and homeschooling.

And we also need to make sure that that is entitled to be shared between parents. Because otherwise, we know that given the gender pay gap, what will happen is the parent who earns the less will be the one who who takes furlough to look after the children and we know that'll disproportionately be women now interestingly we can see other initiatives happening elsewhere in the world so for example in germany they have given a kinder bonus of 300 euros to households to be able to to absorb some of the financial costs which are associated with having to look after your children, not being able to work as normal.

And that was also intended to try and level up some of this gender pay gap decision making that happens in households and the kind of household bargaining that happens as to who's going to keep working and who's going to do the unpaid care in the household. Now, a lot of families are obviously facing rising debt and there is also the issue of universal credit. There has been that extra £20 of universal credit that will run out in April, which is presumably a concern for a lot of parents. Absolutely.

And I think Marianne, if she's here, can probably speak to that much more than us. I think we're just trying to get Marianne back, actually. I'm afraid this is the world we're living in at the moment. Absolutely. But I think we just need to think about what additional support and making sure that additional support to the women who need it the most. As the World Women's Budget Group report has highlighted, it's women who are the lowest socioeconomic groups who are most disadvantaged and single parents. We need to make sure there's significant support for single parents again you know Germany for example has given an additional 20 days leave this year to single mothers in this pandemic to try and account for ensuring that they

are able to balance their responsibilities at home and to their employer and so I think we just need to think outside the box a bit. We've now got Marianne back on the phone. Marianne, Claire's done a very good job at talking us through some of the policy ideas that we could bring in. What are your thoughts on what could actually be done to try and alleviate this inequality? I think Claire's spoken about furlough and about the uplift to universal credit.

I think it's also important that that's extended across to other benefits. So there's people who were claiming benefits before universal credit came in, particularly disabled people who haven't benefited from that uplift. And that affects large numbers of disabled parents. And then what we really need is to see a really significant increase in child benefit benefit because that's the most effective way of getting money to families quickly you know high levels of uptake very broadly spread very easy way of getting money to families and in terms of things like supporting families when who are claiming free school meals it's much better to increase the amount of money those families have

than as happened the last time around trying to increase the amount of money those families have than as happened the last time around, trying to work out ways of delivering food to them, which is often not satisfactory and not what they actually need. But the other thing we need to look at is making sure that we don't keep getting into this situation. I know we've got the vaccine rolling out now and that is positive, but at at the moment large numbers of people can't afford to self-isolate if they're in contact with somebody who has covid or even if they've got symptoms because they're not entitled to statutory sick pay we know that women are 50 percent more likely to not be entitled to statutory sick pay than men because there's a threshold, there's an amount you have to earn above

before you can actually claim sick pay. And about 15.5% of women workers don't earn enough to qualify for statutory sick pay. So it's very, very difficult for those women to isolate if they need to. And that's not just bad for them, but it's obviously bad for all of us because it's really important

that people who are sick or at risk of having been infected are able to stay at home. Indeed. Well, look, some really positive suggestions there. I hope we don't have to come back to this topic, but perhaps we will. Thank you very much indeed for bearing with us,

Mary-Anne Stevenson and Claire Wenham. Thank you very much. Now, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service is venturing into IVF. It will open a not-for-profit IVF clinic later this year in central London. It may seem like quite a strange departure. And to explain more, here is Claire Murphy, the new CEO of BPAS. Claire, why have you decided to go into IVF? Well, yes, as you say, Andrea, in some respects, maybe it seems to some like a kind of radical

departure. But for us, this absolutely fits within our remit and our position of really standing up for reproductive choice. And I think, you know know we tend to kind of see reproductive choice solely within the prism of access to abortion rights which obviously is absolutely fundamental and will remain absolutely fundamental to us but definitely for BPAS reproductive choice is about the choice to have children as well as the choice not to. It's really about kind of, you know, being able to stand up and campaign and deliver services for women across their reproductive lifetime. So this is very much in keeping with what we stand for. And indeed, you know, we see some significant parallels between some of the issues that we faced when we first started our organisation in the late

1960s, when the abortion law had just been passed, but when women weren't actually being able to access NHS-funded, accessible abortion care, we set a service up then to address those discrepancies, those inequalities in service provision. And actually, sadly, we see many of the same issues with IVF provision today. It's legal, but it's not necessarily NHS funded. Absolutely not the case. And when women and their partners are having to go privately, it's often not affordable. And we want to step into the gap there. It's interesting. I wonder, you know, you're talking about actually setting up a not for profit clinic. What kind of costs, what kind of cost savings would that give somebody who wanted to do to go down your route as opposed to going privately for IVF? So cost is absolutely going to be, you know, one of the issues we want to address. We want to make IVF more affordable to those who are having to pay privately. So on average, within the UK at the moment, you're looking at about 5,000 a cycle on average, but the prices do vary quite significantly. So we will be coming in significantly below that. But it's also about

offering a very transparent upfront service, one that is honest with women, their partners, couples about chances of success. But also, you know, I have to say one of the key things for us as an organisation is very much, you know, again, looking at how we've approached the, you know, I have to say one of the key things for us as an organisation is very much, you know, again, looking at how we've approached the abortion issue is we provide a high quality, affordable, not for profit service to the NHS. But we also advocate and campaign for the services women need across the UK. And that's very much the framework we want to deliver with this as well. We want to see people across the UK being able to access the NHS funded three cycles that are recommended by NICE. That doesn't need to be with us, we need to recognise infertility, the suffering infertility can cause as a medical issue and one in which people should be able to access NHS funded care.

We know that that NHS funded care, those three cycles that are supposed to be available, aren't always available. And particularly in a post pandemic world, the NHS is going to be under extraordinary amounts of pressure. You talk there about the honest chances of success that you will talk to people about when they come to you to talk about IVF. Do you think that IVF clinics, private clinics aren't doing that? Where do you see the problem with the private clinics? I think the issue is that people coming to IVF services, obviously the ultimate goal is to have a baby. And we are playing with people's hopes and dreams. This is an incredibly difficult and challenging area when you're having to have discussions that actually make clear that many people, that won't be what they come away with.

They won't come away with a live birth and I do think being able to have an open discussion about that with people is really really important and to recognize that you know yes that lots of decision making about when to start treatment but also supporting people in decision making about when to stop treatment and I think those are you know those are really tough conversations to have. But, you know, as I say, we are an organisation that has provided patient centred care for, you know, more than 50 years now. We have held women's hands every step of the way. Will you put on age restrictions or limits on the number of cycles? We won't put on restrictions. We won't impose arbitrary restrictions,

but we will follow an ethical, you know, evidence-based approach. I mean, obviously in terms of age, the likelihood of success diminishes, you know, as the older you get. And we want to have very, very open conversations with that, but we're not there to impose non-clinical restrictions.

We are there to have an open conversation about what the chances of success are. But, you know, as I say, we're also there to advocate for people's ability to access NHS-funded care across the country without the imposition of some of these you know non-clinical restrictions that we're currently seeing so for example relationship status but you know being able to prove you're in a stable relationship which is you know or you know having a child from a previous relationship for us it's very much about

providing the service but also really making the case for why people need access to this care and why it should be funded by the nhs even you know as you as you mentioned when we're in a climate in which resources are going to definitely be constrained claire very interesting um you are hoping to roll this out in September of this year, is that right? Yes, that's the hope. We're getting underway with getting it all rolled out this year. So it's incredibly exciting. But yeah, as I say, you know, this is very much about BPAT being an organisation that has women's backs at every stage of their reproductive journey. Claire Murphy, thank you very much indeed. Now, we would like to hear from you if you have a response to a recent survey where more than a quarter of 18 to 34 year old women said that they would say no to a COVID

jab. And what they cited as their reason was concern about the vaccine's effect on their fertility and future pregnancies. I wonder if this has occurred to you at all. Is it something that you've been discussing with friends or partners? We would like to talk to listeners about this because we'd actually like to talk more about this on next week's programme. So please do share your thoughts on this. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Texts are going to be charged at your thoughts on this. You can text WOMEN'S HOUR on 84844.

Texts are going to be charged at your standard message rate. Do check with your network provider for exact costs. On social media, it's at BBC WOMEN'S HOUR, or you can email us through our website, and we are really keen to hear from you on this. And still to come today, singer-songwriter and BBC Sound 2021 runner-up, Holly Humberstone is with us. Now, there is a lack of curiosity about the deaths of marginalised people.

Those are the words of Caroline Aldridge, whose eldest son Tim died in 2014. It was what the coroner called an unexplained death. Tim had bipolar disorder and like so many others with mental illness, his GP had referred him to mental health services many months before he died, still waiting for that appointment. His mum Caroline is also a social worker and after his death, she sought answers about why and how the system had failed her son. The result is a book that she's written, He Died Waiting.

Well, Caroline joins me now. And Caroline, first of all, thank you so much for coming to talk about this today. I know it can't be an easy thing to do. Thank you for having me. I couldn't have talked about it six years ago, four years ago. But yes, now it's been a journey and I feel compelled to talk about it for all the other Tims. There are thousands of people like Tim. Well, tell me a little bit about Tim, the person, not the patient. Tim was, he was quirky. He was always quirky and he was

highly intelligent, but sometimes his mind would race you know a thousand miles an hour and he would talk endlessly about things like quantum physics and he was always very chatty and he was a champion hugger and I think the whole family missed his kind of affectionate umness really and his chattiness and he was also very caring so services you know the way he was recorded in by professionals was all about his deficits the things that he couldn't do that were wrong with him but actually after he died I sort of heard lots from friends and things to realise that within his friendship group he was looked up to he was the one that took care of other people um and things like he was dyslexic but he would research the law and write letters for friends about their employment rights

or um things like that so he he was um he was a kind of big character he was very tall and imposing and sometimes quite quirky like wearing a top hat and things but he was also just lovable and lovely and really valued by people. So tell me how old was he when he first got ill? He was about 15 when he first became ill but I didn't know anything about mental health at that time I wasn't a social worker I was just just a mum and I misinterpreted a lot of what was happening to him as sort of teenage angst and lots of his friends were experiencing similar things and he was actually just tipped over into 18 so therefore into adult services when he first was seen by a doctor. And because he was over 18, as his parent, I was excluded.

Everything then revolved around him going to appointments and things on his own. And did he get a diagnosis at that point? Was he given medication? No, he didn't get a diagnosis for eight years. So eight years is a long time to be in quite acute mental distress some of the time without any help or support. So he obviously found ways of managing that, many of which are not very socially acceptable. And at the time, I found that really difficult. He used drugs and alcohol to try and manage that. Yeah. But as I've kind of learned more and reflected on it, I realised that really he was just doing the best he could to manage acute mental distress and his moods, between sort of deep depressions where he wouldn't get out of bed or wash or eat for for weeks um

to sort of um horrible mixed states where his mind would be racing fast but full of nasty unsafe dangerous thoughts that were frightening um or being really elevated but feeling invincible and wonderful and and doing all sorts of daft things, whichever really came into his head at the time and seemed like a good idea because he was in a manic state. One thing that you bring up very powerfully in the book is that this trap that Tim fell into, where he was too ill to access community services. You know, you talk about how he would fail to make an appointment perhaps because, as you say, his life was chaotic

and he would then lose his place in a community scheme to help with drugs and alcohol, but yet he wasn't ill enough to be detained and assessed for treatment. How common is that? I describe it as not being the right kind of ill. Services are designed around services. They're not designed around people who are not, as a term would say, wanting to engage, willing to engage, motivated to change. They're certainly not designed for people who are frightened of services. And Tim was very frightened because of his paranoia about what would happen if medical professionals saw him when he was unwell.

And I think it's really common. And after Tim died, I looked at some research and discovered that where Tim lived for young men of his age, the morbidity rate was the highest and actually people like Tim who have a dual diagnosis of bipolar and drug and alcohol use are at the highest risk of dying and yet they seem to be the ones that are most elusive within services either because they are frightened or chaotic or I think frankly because services haven't got the resources to offer the ongoing relational care that they need, because everything's designed around this episodic. You go in, you're assessed and you're signposted out. And that happened frequently to Tim. He would ask for help, but it would take so many months before he got to an appointment, by which time he was either too unwell and wouldn't go near them or had recovered somewhat. And they would say, well, there's nothing much wrong with you. Off you go. And I think one of the things that shocked me after he died is when I finally got hold of his files is just how thin they were, just how little in 15 years for someone who'd been chronically unwell. He'd been seen seen and I don't

think he's unusual and I think that's the thing that at the time I thought it was unusual at the time I thought um we were spectacularly unlucky and that what happened to Tim was unusual but over the last six years I've come to understand that um there are many many people like Tim and many lessons to be learned can just would you share with us and I know that there are many, many people like Tim. And many lessons to be learned. Would you share with us, and I know that there is a reason for asking you to do this, how you heard about his death? Ah, yes. Well, in the book, there's messages for people across health and social care, and that actually includes the police. So when I heard about Tim, it was 6am in the morning, and I wasn't dressed I put

on my husband's dressing gown went to answer the door and a young policeman and I do understand the difficulties the police are under and the trauma they face he wouldn't come in he wanted to tell me on the doorstep and I had to ask him to wait while I got my husband and to ask him if I could get dressed I was sort of saying you know please please just let me get dressed before you carry on saying what you're saying and then when we had to sort of almost force him and my husband almost force him to come into the lounge and he managed to squeeze himself behind me on the sofa but between me and the wall and he sort of addressed the back of my head and then he was in and out and gone and then I realised he hadn't even asked about Tim's father

and whether he was being informed and so that was the most hideous way to find out but sort of contrasting that the police sergeant who did the investigation was really kind. And I kind of challenged him and said, look, you know, the way I was told was just, it was just appalling. And I was left to tell Tim's father, all this young policeman said was, well, you tell him. I know you also went through a really difficult process at the inquest six months later as well. Just reading the book, I'm not sure that if you didn't have the kind of skill set that you have as a social worker and obviously a lot of tenacity, I don't know how you would have ever coped with that because it seemed again that it was a very difficult situation where the notes that you were given were all out of order and really there

wasn't a lot of information there. No, I think that was really shocking. So as a social worker, I assumed when someone died that any and every investigation would be thorough, you know, the worst had happened. This is something serious. So the whole process I found opaque, confusing. And then and yet I'd got these professional skills. So we waited five months for the paperwork for the inquest. And when it came, it was just a chaotic bundle and there were bits missing and incorrect information. So I kind of put my professional head on and put it into have legal representation and most families don't because there's no funding and I certainly didn't, then you, the family member, are expected to cross examine anybody you call. So those gaps, if I'd have called the mental health trust, the GP, the police, me at the very first inquest I'd have gone to, which is actually about my son and I'm in bits, I would have been expected to ask those questions. But they would have all been

lawyered up with their barristers and solicitors, and they're all used to going to these events. Caroline, I know that you in your book talk about a lot of recommendations and changes you would like to see. Could you just give us today perhaps your top one, if there's one thing that you could say to people out there in the professions who might be coming across somebody else like Tim? I think it's about kindness, empathy, compassion. If one thing, there's all sorts of practical things, there's free things, there's things that cost money that could be done for people who are unwell, for the bereaved. But actually, if we started acting with decency and compassion and treating people as our fellow human beings and kindness, that would go a massively long way. Caroline Aldridge, the book is called He Died Waiting. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today.

Thank you. I can tell you that we've got a huge response to this story. One here says, I've got a brilliant conversation about mental health services on Women's Hour and also pointing out that people with eating disorders can also relate to not being the right type of ill. Another here says, thank you so much for sharing your son's story on Woman's Hour. We're thinking of Tim and all the other Tims out there.

Eight years is too long to wait for the help that he should have had. We're getting a lot of responses to that story. So, Caroline, thank you so much for sharing it with us. Now, the singer-songwriter Holly Humberstone has been named runner-up at BBC Sound of 2021. She's a former violinist for the Lincolnshire Youth Symphony Orchestra and poetry has played a large part in her songwriting. She started by putting the words of poetry to music. Holly got a big break after uploading the song Hit and Run to BBC Introducing. And since then, she's toured with Lewis Capaldi and she's also played at Glastonbury. Quite a

career trajectory. Now, Holly joins me now. Holly, first of all, many congratulations. It's a fantastic achievement to be runner up at the Sound of 2021. Hi. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I'm really excited. I'm still not quite. Yeah. Former winners include Adele, Ellie Goulding and Sam Smith. So, you know, you've got your walking in the footsteps of giants there. I know that your music has been compared to the likes of Lorde and Maggie Rogers. How do you describe your sound? I don't know, really. I think it's always changing, but I'd probably describe it as sort of dark, wonky,

alternative, electronic-y pop. But who knows how I'm going to sound in like a year. I really have no idea. I just kind of make what I kind of like at the moment. Okay, well, the best way might be to just hear a little bit of it. This is Vanilla. Let's hear it. Now I don't want to be your enemy But truly I ain't got the energy To wait for somebody you'll never be

It never works, it never will I need a cure for all this apathy I'm spending way too long on WebMD Not so sure it's good for me I guess I feel a little nauseous Thank you. That's just what we do. And I could go on and on and on and on and on. But the truth is, I have my best nights without you. So tell me I'm wrong to think we're far from having fun. There we go. That was Vanilla.

Now, poetry has played a large part in your songwriting. I think you started off by putting, was it the words of T.S. Eliot to music? Yeah, it has. My dad is like a huge poetry fan and we have we kind of hoarders in my house because we've lived here for like forever um and my dad's got like bookshelves and bookshelves of like all these different poetry books um but yeah he loves T.S. Eliot um and Leonard Cohen and things like that and he he'd sort of put, he'd read us poetry when we were small and he'd sort of place the poetry books on the piano and I'd kind of make little tunes up to them.

I had no idea what they were talking about, but I enjoyed making little tunes up and things like that. And he was really encouraging as well. Now, I've heard you say that your lyrics have got to pass the quality control test, that if they're not tattoo lyrics, they don't make the record. So just explain that. You've got to explain that to us. Yeah, I think I think for me, lyrics are probably the most important part of like the creative process for me. I write because it's really therapeutic for me and it kind of helps me filter through confusing things that I'm going through or different emotions that I'm feeling.

So, yeah, I find I'm I think if I when I'm writing, I have this rule that if it's not like a really cringy tattoo kind of thing, then it doesn't make the record, I think. So you don't actually know that anyone's actually tattooed any of your lyrics yet, no? I don't seem to have been very successful because I don't think anyone's had a tattoo yet. There's still time. I know. You were a former violinist for the Lincolnshire Youth Symphony Orchestra. So did you grow up in a musical household? I did, yeah.

My parents were always really encouraging for me and my sisters to kind of come home from school and do some music practice or we've got an art room. The house is a complete tip. It's like such a creative mess and we're all such hoarders. But, yeah, I have three sisters and we're all very close in age so we kind of come home and just do kind of creative stuff and just have fun um yeah so it kind of come it's come from that I think now you're only 20 but you've already played Glastonbury and supported Lewis Capaldi at

Wembley how did that success come about so early on I'm not quite sure really I started off by kind of writing was just something that I really enjoyed and I started off by just recording demos which are just little basic songs onto my dad's laptop and then I would upload them to a site called BBC Introducing and then I got quite a lot of local recognition from the local radio stations um and I had written a song that got put forward for um like a really late slot on radio one um that I that came on about one in the morning and I didn't think anyone would hear it um but um luckily um my manager kind of heard that on there and that's how I kind of got into finding my team and doing sessions and co-writes and things. And that's how I got the Glastonbury slot. So, yeah, I think it was a bit of luck, really.

Now, look, I mean, it does sound like a sort of a dream start. But then, of course, in February last year, you were supporting Lewis Capaldi and lockdown struck. I mean, we know how hard it's been for all performers, of course, but how have you guys managed? I'm not really, I've been fine because I haven't really known any different. The lockdown's kind of, from the beginning of coronavirus to now, that's kind of like my whole career. That's kind of when my career sort of started up till now.

So I don't really know any difference. And I think there have been some times when it's been a bit frustrating because I wanted to go out and perform um and network and meet people and it feels a bit like my whole my whole career so far has been like quite a lot of it's on social media um and I'm just kind of sitting at home so you're making music at home exactly yeah I'm yeah I think making music over lockdown has been kind of like a bit of a bit of a saving grace for me because yeah as I said it's it's just kind of my way of like coping with stuff um so I've definitely been um writing a lot

and being creative over lockdown which has saved me for sure and I'm excited to release that music. Yeah and do you know what's next? Yeah I'm I'm excited to release that music. Yeah, and do you know what's next? Yeah, I'm planning to release a song called Haunted House next. And I wrote it about my childhood home, which I was telling you about. And I've grown up here with my three sisters and it's really old and sort of falling down

and it's definitely haunted. Like I think people have definitely died here. And my friend's my friend's mum is kind of a little bit has sort of supernatural powers and she came here and was kind of like it's definitely ghosts here um and it kind of made me thinking about made me made me think a bit about a song idea and how um we might be moving out soon. And it's just kind of sad because it's a very like big part of who I am, I think. And yeah, the ghost here must be nice ghost because it kind of looked over me and my sisters.

Well, Holly Humberstone, we'll look forward to hearing it and to following your career. Thank you very much for joining us. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.