Woman's Hour - Singer-songwriter Joy Crookes, Maternity discrimination, Data-driven parenting, Hot Girl Summer

Episode Date: August 13, 2021

Joy Crookes was nominated for Rising star at the BRIT awards 2020. Born and raised in Elephant and Castle, London, the daughter of a Bengali mother and an Irish father, she grew up listening to an eclectic mix of genres – everything from Nick Cave, to King Tubby, Kendrick Lamar and Gregory Isaac. She came to the public’s attention at the age of 15 when she uploaded a cover of "Hit the Road Jack" on YouTube, and later performed "Mother, May I Sleep With Danger?", on the global music platform, COLORS. She has now released "Feet Don't Fail Me Now" as the lead single from her upcoming debut album, Skin.We look at the issue of maternal discrimination with Dr Katie Lidster a scientist who has just won £23,000 damages against her employer – a government backed body. She won the case against UK Research and Innovation (UKRI) after an 18-month battle following the arrival of her second child, Daisy, who was born in 2019 ten weeks prematurely. She was offered a role with diminished responsibilities, four days a week, and later told that her old job no longer existed. We talk to Dr Lidster and to Employment lawyer Claire Dawson who specialises in discrimination cases.The economist Emily Oster is best known here for her books that look at the evidence behind parenting myths. Much of the advice for pregnant women is contradictory and so her books looked at the data behind issues like drinking in pregnancy and risks associated with induction dates. Now she is back with a new book Family Firm which is focussed on primary school years.‘Hot Girl Summer’ is a term coined by American rapper and music sensation Megan Thee Stallion. You might have seen the phrase across social media, on Instagram captions, Tik Tok hashtags, Facebook statuses, even on clothing, as it's become part of the day-to-day vocabulary for millennial and Gen-Z women across the globe. Megan defined ‘Hot Girl Summer’ as “To be you, just having fun. Turning up, driving the boat and not giving a damn about what nobody’s saying.” But why, two summers later, are people still using the phrase? And what does Hot Girl Summer actually mean? Anita Rani speaks to Shei Mamona, a journalist and the Beauty and Features Assistant at Glamour and Scotty Unfamous, an erotic romance author, blogger and self-described Sexfluencer.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. It's Friday the 13th. Lucky? Unlucky? Well, this morning I'd love to hear about the superstitions you live by, whether you believe in them or not. Are there certain things that have just become habits or do you really believe in the magic?

Growing up in an Indian house, there's a superstition for every day of the week, every hour of every day, in fact. And as much as I think it's a load of old bunkum, I still can't help myself but not stand on pavement cracks. I always salute magpies and I always water my plants on a Wednesday. Are you the same?

Let's hear your weird and wonderful superstitions. You can text me on 84844. You can also contact us via social media. It's at bbcwomanshour or you can email us through our website. Then have you ever experienced sexual harassment at a live music event? Well, according to new research,

a shocking only 3% of 18 to 24 year olds have not been harassed in a public space. So I want to hear your experiences this morning. Clubs are opening up, live music events are finally happening again. But how safe do you feel as a woman at these events? And what do you think needs to change? Of course, share your stories. We're also discussing the big important topic of maternity discrimination. Have you experienced it? Was your job changed or taken away from you after having a baby? What did you do about it? Did you feel you could do anything? Well, I'll be talking to a woman who took her employer to court and won after they said her job no longer existed, but she saw an

almost identical one advertised. Then how's your household running these days? Do you have a plan? A family mission statement? A spreadsheet? Do you use Google Docs? Well, economist Emily Oster, the bestselling author of Cribsheet, has written a data-driven book to help you make better decisions for your child's early school years. I'll also be finding out why we all need to know how to live a hot girls' summer. And it's Friday, so we are having some music. And though I'm down for trying, I am better in denial So I just don't make a sound Oh, the stunning and incredibly talented Joy Crooks will be telling us about her upcoming debut album, Skin. But first, we often talk about gender discrimination on the programme,

but an additional area of concern for many women is maternal discrimination. We've been prompted to look at this following the news that Dr Katie Lidster, a scientist working in UK Research and Innovation, which is a government-backed body, has just won £23,000 worth of damages because her maternity leave, which she was told she could return to, she told that she had a less responsible job that she could either come back to and that her old job no longer existed. However, she found out that almost an identical role to hers was then advertised. Now, this is not an unusual situation, according to Claire Dawson,

employment lawyer specialising in discrimination cases, who joins me now. Claire, I will come to you in a moment. But first, let's hear what happened with Dr Lidster's case. Morning Katie. Now all of this happened after the birth of your second child Daisy and this was a really difficult time for you wasn't it because she was premature. Tell me about it. Yeah so Daisy was born at 30 weeks so she was 10 weeks early. I went for a regular scan and they found out that she wasn't growing properly my placenta was failing so her best chance of survival was to be born early and she was born weighing 2 pound 11 ounces she was tiny she was whisked away to the neonatal intensive care unit where she would spend two months of her first life getting bigger. She

needed some breathing support and she was fed by a tube and we slowly got her bigger until she got home two months later. And what toll did that take on you? It was massive. It was probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do. It completely changed me as a person I think because you just had to go into this kind of survival mode and be there for her. And I also had a two-year-old at home as well. So being there for her as well and spending my days in the hospital, but also leaving Daisy at night in the care of the nurses. And you were seeing a therapist through this time, weren't you?

So I briefly met the therapist when I was in the hospital. And it was only when I got home, I think, the biggest challenge really started when you got away from that security blanket of the hospital and still taking a really small fragile vulnerable baby home. I really struggled with anxiety so I got back in touch with her. And what did she say? So it was clear when I spoke to her that I was still living very much in the moment. And she diagnosed me with post-traumatic stress disorder and that my anxiety was stopping me from doing day to day things. And it was the therapist that then urged you to return to work as part of your recovery. Yes. And when we were chatting, it was very clear to her that my career was really important to me. It a major part of my life and she very much encouraged me as a way of healing to move forward

and look at the future and be positive so I started those conversations with my work. And when you contacted them to go back to work what what did they say to you? How did that conversation go down? It was actually a very short telephone conversation I called my manager and he just said, it's not appropriate for you to return to the role you were doing before maternity leave. And we've made a new job and we'll be sending you a job description. And I just went into a complete state of shock. It can come completely out of the blue. And in a matter of minutes, I'd lost the job I loved, the job I thrived in and the job I was looking forward to returning to.

And at the moment, you know, you're at your most vulnerable as well. You've been through this hugely traumatic experience and then work turn around and say, you can't come back to your old job. So how did you find out then that they were advertising for what seemed like the same job? It was only actually after I raised a grievance that one of my friends in the office forwarded me an email

and said, oh, are you not coming back after your maternity leave? There's a job being advertised that looks pretty much like your job. And she forwarded it to me and it was my job, but just with the addition of one word in the title. And I didn't have access to my work emails at the time because my password expired. So I'd not seen the advert. So what did you do? Did you confront your boss? I mean, how do you react to something like that?

Well, at this point in time, the grievance procedure had already been started. So I was then dealing with HR. And I think that's where the biggest shock came in is when I started raising my issues with HR, they completely backed and double downed with my line manager. And it seemed to be a whole cultural system

that was against me, not just one person in the organisation. The whole of HR seemed to be a whole cultural system that was against me not just one person in the organization the whole of HR seemed to back what they were saying and that they were not doing anything wrong. So you'd already set up you had this grievance process that was happening against your employer and then you spoke to the pressure group pregnant then screwed how helpful were they? I don't think I would have got this far without them I don't think I would have got this far without them. I don't think I would have even tried. I think it was just a first step. Let's just see how they can help. And I rang their hotline and I spoke to one of their solicitors for free, free advice. And she said they can't do that. It's unlawful. The first step is a grievance. And then she actually followed me all the way through

to the tribunal stage. And I definitely wouldn't have started the ball rolling without pregnant then screwed. It's an incredibly expensive process to have gone through how did you manage to afford it? So I used legal representation up to the tribunal case so it's really complex submitting a tribunal and there's lots of deadlines to meet and I did use a solicitor for that part but then when it got to the tribunal itself I couldn't afford the barrister and I had to cancel the barrister I had booked in and it's at that point that my husband stepped forward. Is your husband a barrister? No he's a meteorologist. So what made you think he could do the job of a barrister? Well he communicates the weather really well so I thought and he knows my case inside out I mean I'd been living it for 18 months at home in

lockdown I was in he was the only person I ever spoke to he knew my case so well and he knew all the caveats like he knew he knew the law by then he was just so into it yeah so supportive and he did a good job yep he did yeah I'm gonna bring Claire. Claire, are you surprised by this story? Well, not really, because obviously I've been advising women in similar situations for many years as an employment lawyer. And I think Katie's case has some very sort of clear cut examples of unlawful discrimination because of her maternity leave. But it's not untypical for clients of mine to find that they've been told that their role has disappeared, that there's been a restructure, that a new role has been created. And it's not unusual either for them to find that perhaps their maternity cover, the person who was brought in to do their job while they were away so that they would have a job to return to has

ended up doing a role that looks very like theirs going forward. So while, you know, I understand that it was a really difficult situation for Katie, and I'm really glad that she found the resources and the strength to go ahead and fight her case and achieve some justice. Unfortunately, I'm not that surprised. Of course, it's very disappointing because women who go on maternity leave have a statutory right to return to the same role or an equivalent role in most circumstances. We have had a statement from Katie's employer, UKRI, and a spokesperson said it's our policy not to

comment in detail on individual cases but we have conceded liability in this case UKRI is committed to equality and to fostering a positive working culture and we will learn and change in the light of this experience we wish Dr Lidster all the best in the future. Are you seeing, Claire, more of these cases coming through? Well, I think the Employment Tribunal's own statistics have shown that in the last few years, there's been an increase in cases for pregnancy-related dismissal and detriment. Certainly, I've been advising women in similar situations for a long time. And the Equality and Human Rights Commission did a report back in 2016. They said that about 11% of women who take maternity leave lose their job as a result.

I do think that since the Me Too movement took off in 2017, and since we've had gender pay gap reporting in the UK, there's been a heightened awareness of issues facing women in the workplace, including maternity discrimination. And I think what that has done is it's allowed women to feel like there's a bit of a collective behind them if they take these cases. Because as I'm sure Katie experienced, it can be quite a lonely process fighting a case all the way to the employment tribunal and so I think Me Too and other movements like that and this refocus on the issues facing women in the workplace has actually given women the strength to kind of go ahead and go ahead with the case when when they might otherwise have felt quite daunted by it. We've had an email come in I'm just going to read it out saying having headed a department central to a publicly funded arts organisation

for over a decade, my post and much of the department was closed while I was on maternity leave and soon due to return. A new leadership, in brackets of women, had taken over and they planned a restructure. A false statement to the press by the organisation was drafted saying I'd chosen to step down to spend time with my family. I countered this with lawyers I paid for. So I legally alleged sexual discrimination as they'd taken advantage of an extended period of leave to push through their restructure. They settled just before tribunal, making me sign an NDNA. It left me with a huge grief for a job I'd loved and with very mixed feelings about what my pregnancy had cost me.

I adore my child and I'm unequivocally glad I had them. That cannot be stated enough that my work life was cut so drastically short as a consequence. Men do not have to face anything like the same extent, Claire. Claire? That's why the legislation is there, because there's a recognition that women who are on maternity leave are vulnerable. It's sort of out of sight, out of mind, easy for them to be sidelined and replaced. And I think what's really interesting, and Katie touched on this, and what I would see with a lot of my clients is when you've just given birth, perhaps you are having health difficulties yourself. Perhaps your child has health problems. I've had a number of clients who've had really ill babies. And the last thing you want to hear

is that you don't have a job to go back to. And indeed, it's then very difficult for you to move ahead and decide you're going to launch a tribunal claim in order to get some justice for yourself. So one of the things that I know a lot of campaigners are asking for is an extension, for example, to the time limit for bringing a claim. And, you know, it's three months at the moment. And that's really a short time frame for someone to get their head around bringing a claim when they've been through a lot already. So looking for it to be extended to six to 12 months. And I think the government has said they will look at that generally in relation to equality claims, but I don't think it's on the cards in the immediate future. I think that would be one really good improvement to the system.

What warning signs should women watch out for when they're on maternity leave? Well, I mean, a typical thing I think has happened to Katie here is that if somebody, it doesn't bode well for a woman if she contacts her employer and they don't really want to engage with a return to work plan and be clear about what's happening. So I think poor communication during the maternity leave period, a failure for the line manager to engage with one-to-ones, those things don't tend to bode well. I mean, I don't want to be all doom and gloom because obviously a majority of women don't experience these problems. And, you know, a lot of employers are very well aware of their legal obligations and they want to abide by them

and they actually think they're doing the right thing by abiding them and by facilitating a smooth return to work for women so i hope that for most women listening that they'll be able to enjoy their maternity leaves without worrying about it um but but unfortunately for some it's um a really really difficult experience at a time in their lives when they should be enjoying their new their new baby um i just want to come back to Katie Katie what I mean is it like as Clara said an incredibly vulnerable time you'd been through such a traumatic experience what gave you the strength to just carry on and do this and it you you won in the end but what what

kept you going well I think going through that with Daisy being premature I'd already shown myself that I could be strong in that situation so why can't I be strong in a situation and also having two daughters I just want to fight for a better future for them as well and yeah just having the support of my family really helped um and yeah um I just kept going I never thought it would get this far I thought oh it'd be settled at the grievance stage or the appeal stage or and you just can't stop going when it gets to a tribunal claim. And how is Daisy doing now? She's good she was actually two on the day that they delivered their judgment so I celebrated with her celebrating her second birthday and she's doing really well she definitely turned into a monkey two-year-old. Wonderful Katie and Claire thank you very much

I'm sure we'll be coming back to this if you would like to share your stories with us you can email us by going to our website now many of us have been looking forward to going to a music festival me included cannot wait to be in a field jumping around to loud music it's a space where we feel free and joyful or at least we should well today artists such as Anne-Marie and Mabel and some festival and industry leaders

have signed an open letter to demand the music and live sectors commit to their spaces being safer for women. Past figures have shown that 40% of women under 40 have experienced sexual harassment at a live music event. This call to action comes from UN Women UK and Youth Culture Festival, Strawberries and Cream. And Claire Barnett, who's the Executive Director of UN Women Festival, Women UK, joins us now. Morning, Claire. You released this letter this morning. Why? Well, this is based on over a decade of work

that we've done around the world trying to make public spaces tangibly safer for women, girls and marginalised groups. And something interesting happened where we just launched a UK-wide project, Safe Spaces Now, at the beginning of 2020. And then obviously the nation went into lockdown and we all left public spaces at one time.

And I think something kind of magical happened in that what happened due to the pandemic and everybody needing to change their behaviour overnight really showed us and gave us confidence that it is possible to change behaviour, even those things that we think are really entrenched, like the fear of sexual harassment and abuse. And so as live music returns from lockdown, and obviously the awareness, I would say, has really been raised this year by a number of high profile cases of women being attacked, abducted, and people are

just saying, enough now. And I think we really have an opportunity to return to live music in a much more considered way. So put the logistical things in place that we need to make the spaces safer, but also really look at public behaviour. What do we expect? How is it possible to change the way that people interact and equipping the public better for us to all know what to do if we witness harassment so that we can return to live music which really should be a place of escapism and joy with that feeling and not with fears about safety. How much of a problem is it at festivals? Well we know that over 40% of women under 40 have been sexually harassed at a music festival, those who attend them. And, you know, some data that we released earlier this year, showed that over seven in 10

women have been sexually harassed in one public space or another. And only 3% of 18 to 24 year old women told us that they had not been harassed. What was interesting was we actually received a number of messages from young women in that age group saying, I'm surprised that it's as big as 3% that haven't experienced that. And I think, you know, expected would happen that just aren't. So everyone's invited, the Our Streets Now campaigns this year have just showed that sexual harassment, and that includes quite serious violence, is still affecting the lives of particularly young women on a daily basis. So we know this is very widespread and what we're seeing is venues and festivals taking really important measures to keep people safe from COVID. What we want to make sure is that we're also being really considered

about how we think about women's safety and what we do to make that a better return to live music for not just fans but also artists and performers. We know that it's an issue within the industry as well. It seems like the perfect time to have a reset and a rethink about how we go forward i'm going to bring in um shea mamona who's a journalist at um glamour magazine because shea is in the studio with me which is so rare and brilliant to have an actual physical body in the studio with me you're here to talk about hot girls summer a little bit later but i'm going to bring you in because we had a bit of a chat before the program and you were surprised you said 40% seems like a very small figure of women. don't quite know that it is or you can't quite quantify it in a way so then you don't report it or you kind of tell yourself that it's fine it's nothing so a lot of the times that 40% probably

could be bigger but women just don't have you know the energy or the capacity to understand that actually what just happened was really not it was just bad exactly so it's like opening up that conversation and even talking about what's gone on. And you've run workshops, haven't you, Claire, of 7,000 women about safe spaces? What did they tell you? Yeah, so one of the things that we wanted to do when we all returned from lockdown was to have women and girls who experience this on a regular basis at the centre of Designing Solutions. So we held these workshops that were design thinking to really have the community design what they want or redesign what they want public spaces to look like. And they came up with over 154 ideas that we built out and stretched and tested.

And those are all sorts of things from panic buttons, better mobile reporting systems, training for staff. So a huge thing that we heard was that often security staff and bar staff don't know how to respond if somebody asks them for help if they've just been harassed. There's logistical things like better access to phone charging. Huge numbers of women in our workshops told us that having a charged phone is a really important tool for them in making sure they can stay safe. But there's also that behavioural piece. So we know from things like the reduction in smoking in public places, all of the behaviour that's just happened due to COVID, that we can change public behaviour on a mass scale quite quickly. And so it's about using those behavioural insights to bring in codes of conduct so that people act

differently at music festivals. And they also know how to safely intervene. I've heard an email from Lara and she said, I'm a 49-year-old mum of two. Four years ago, I was assaulted at Glastonbury whilst walking with a friend. There was a well-known performer wandering around dancing and approaching people. We just had our faces painted. We were feeling sparkly and ready for an evening of dancing. He approached us and then grabbed my breast and laughed at me. I was horrified and ended up going back to the tent early that evening because I couldn't shake the feeling of being violated. It ruined my night. He stole from me the time I had to enjoy myself and feel free. You're nodding, Claire.

Yeah, I think that feeling of, and that's part, a huge part of the issue that we just hear again and again, is not only that this is uncomfortable,'s assault it's frightening but also it's shaming and that should never be the case but it's something that we just hear constantly that when that happens to you there is still this social feeling like that is somehow your fault and that's something that we've got to get past as you say this should be your moment for joy and the fact that that is still happening now is a huge issue and one that we think we've got to get on top of and it's interesting you should bring up people who even work in venues and at festivals being harassed as well. Because, again, Shay, you were talking about how we can change the working environment for women within the industry, because this is something you experienced, isn't it?

Yeah. When I was in university, I worked part time at a bar and even behind the bar I didn't feel safe luckily I had an amazing team and if anything happened I would you know I have the privilege to actually call it out and also it's just my personality to call anything out I just don't let anything happen to me anymore I just feel like that's because your generation's ed yeah yeah I'm a millennial slash gen z yeah but you know but that's what it is and I think that even with everything that happened last year with BLM, I think now we're a generation that our culture is to call things out and make change because it's just been going on for too long. So we need to fight.

I mean, the change needs to start from the top and then to trickle down. But actually, people need to realize that a small change can grow and can have a domino effect. So if we keep saying like oh and brush it off and not do anything about it if we all collectively do that as women we're not going to be able to make a change so then if we say these these things are happening and then these corporations actually listen to us change can happen this is not something that is impossible to do it's very easy that is the attitude isn't it absolutely you say, millennial, Gen Z, you're not ready to,

not prepared to take any more nonsense. And I do think you're right. The world has changed. But what about this idea, Claire, that we've got to change the working environment for women within the music industry as well? Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of the stories that we heard were also from women working in the industry, artists, of course, but also within venues within studios

within tours um i think we need and that's part of what this open letter is all about i think we need to be getting those who have influence within the industry to include that as part of their rider to have an absolutely zero tolerance policy on these kind of behaviors um and we think that there is a moment that we can do this i I agree with you. I think this can be done and that's why we're piloting it with Strawberries and Cream because as a festival of youth culture, they have a real opportunity to influence younger people and what their expectations are.

But yeah, certainly the issue is not just for attendees at gigs, at festivals, at events. It's also for women working within that and that is not acceptable either. Claire, thank you very much for speaking to us about this 84844 is the number to text. Shay you're going to Strawberries and Cream aren't you? I am and actually hearing this made me actually excited to go and I'm taking my little sister so now I feel like at peace because I was a bit on edge I'm very protective so I was ready to fight

if anybody tried anything but now I feel feel great. Well isn't that just interesting the fact that you've even already armoured yourself. I'm taking my little sister and I'm going prepared to fight if I need to. The fact we have that mentality, that we have to have that mentality. Yeah, you just have to be mentally prepared for whatever and you have to be ready. And I think that that makes me feel safe having like sort of my mental armour. So this makes me feel great. Well, good.

We look forward, you can tell us all about it when you come back. Claire, thank you again. Talking about women who are armed and ready to tackle anything, the singer-songwriter Joy Crooks was nominated for the Rising Star Award at the 2020 Brit Awards. GQ described her sound as thoughtful neo-soul, her voice a natural gift that exudes the warmth and huskiness of jazz's great vocalists.

They're not wrong. She incorporates details about relationships, self-reliance, her culture, her South London roots, and her identity in her music. She was born and raised in Elephant and Castle in London, the daughter of a Bengali mother and an Irish father. She grew up listening to an eclectic mix of genres. She'll tell us all about it. And she was only 15 when she came to the public's attention. She's still only 22, by the way, after uploading a cover of Hit the Road Jack on YouTube and later performed Mother May I Sleep With Danger on the global music platform Colors. While she's now released Feet Don't Fail Me Now

as the lead single from her upcoming debut album Skin. Let's hear a clip. Keeping up appearances The dark side of my privilege And thank God I got my vibes The dopamine to wish And won't keep me wrong from right But I don't like when My better side takes hold of me I didn't want you to know

Man, I guess I was scared. Feet don't fail me now. I got to stand my ground. And though I'm down for trying, I am better in denial. So I just don't make a sound. Oh, the voice. Amazing. Joy Crooks, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Feet Don't Fail Me Now. What's the song about? Hello. The song is about... I wrote it in light of the protest, the Black Lives Matter protest last year. And I didn't think it was my place to have particularly any answers but I think that as an artist it felt like the right time to talk about what was going on and and and write a political song from a more anthropological angle and I was just very interested in how people around me who used to never really care about politics or racism, for example, pretended to kind of care and performative activism became extremely rife. But then at the same time,

I found people that I was very close to be very quiet and not have anything to say at all. And for other words, they were very complicit. And I wrote this song from the angle of someone that finds it much easier to stay quiet and assimilate and stay in a group rather than speak out during a turbulent time for society in fear of the consequence of speaking now and cancel culture I guess so it's it's it's a lot to unpack in three and a half minutes but um but yeah that is what the song's about and you've managed to unpack it very well for us and also the video is absolutely stunning I feel like you're really expressing who you are through the video anybody who hasn't seen it google it once you've listened to the show and watch it thank you yeah no i was trying to undo some narratives uh within

my culture and all my cultures in the video and uh some ownership and try and tell a story that way as well. You write all your own songs. How cathartic is it for you to be able to transform your thoughts into music? It takes a while for the songs to become cathartic. I think that the actual process of writing songs, particularly political songs or personal political songs, the songs to become cathartic I think that um the actual process of writing songs particularly political songs or personal political songs is um it takes a lot of perseverance because you are constantly what I am trying to trying to constantly tell the most honest and precise

version of my story um but when when I finally get there that's where it becomes the most cathartic feeling and I think that the process and watching it unfold is extremely cathartic as well so it does take time but um but yeah you know when you're up on the stage and then you realize what you're singing about and and where you were in that place and how you can translate pain into not necessarily always pain but translate memories into you know two to three minute moments two to four minute moments of a song that is really cathartic yeah and the impact that can have as well and how much your songs you mean you know you've been 2017 was when you popped up on colors it's been viewed millions and millions of times you've been nominated for you you know, Rising Star Award.

And you haven't even, your debut album isn't even out yet. And already, I mean, I put a message up on my own Instagram to say Joy Crooks is coming on Woman's Hour. And the love and support you have, Joy, because of what you're saying and because of what you represent, that must be an amazing feeling. It is incredible. It's quite overwhelming and sometimes uh i just feel like all i'm doing is getting things off my chest and actually i don't

realize how much it affects other people yeah it's really important i mean the other thing one of the songs you've written is london mine because you're a proud londoner so we've got to talk to you about growing up in elephant and castle Castle. When I first moved to London, I was way up in North London and I got on the wrong branch of the Northern line and ended up in Elephant and Castle. And coming from Yorkshire, I'd never experienced anything like it. How has that environment shaped you? I guess Elephant and Castle is a reflection of London. I think London is probably the most multicultural city in the world. And having grown up around basically every culture you can think of, it affects everything.

It affects your mannerisms. It affects whether you decide to take your shoes off when you walk into someone's house or not. Whether you address someone as auntie or by their first name. You know, how much seasoning you use in your food. And, yeah, I was just very fortunate to grow up here, in my opinion, as much as a lot of people viewed South London as a very dangerous area, this, that and the other.

And, of course, there was turbulence and there was struggle, but there there is so much beauty in it being a very multicultural area and different people different music different food different superstitions yeah and of course your own um background as well because your mum's beautiful Bengali auntie Jasmine and your Irish father. So you've got a mixture of cultures. And how did that influence you growing up? Did you live in both worlds at the same time? My parents weren't together.

So I lived majority of the time just with my mum. So it would be my mum and I and my brother came along. And again, it was just us three basically and that was very much you know a house run by a Bangladeshi woman and then um I'd see my dad on weekends and and during the week sometimes and um that was an Irish man's house and he only had me at the time so um so what sort of music were you listening to growing up? I listened to everything. My dad was actually,

my dad was the one that got me into koala music, but he also obviously listened to like very detailed and beautifully written Irish music, which often has many stories in it. And bands like the Pogues and musicians like Van Morrison, Sinead O'Connor, but also kind of everything. And the same with my mum.

My mum kind of got me into like 90s and early 2000s kind of tunes and Kelis and, you know, Shakira and all sorts and encouraged dancing. And so did my dad. So music was, you know, when you're from two very different backgrounds, it is like a language that we all know how to speak. I love that it was your dad that introduced you to Cavallis. Yeah, I remember I was 14 and we were in Camberwell.

And he took the roof down of his Peugeot and he was like, right, I'm going to listen to this. And and he was like right you're gonna listen to this and I was like I'm gonna listen to this why like what are you gonna blast out these speakers now and he was like this is a man called Nusrat and he was like once you hear this you're never gonna be able to unhear it and I was like I don't know what that means but okay and he put on this song by Nusrat called um Nothing Without You and I remember just feeling like I was transcending it was so beautiful in the South London sun listening to koala music and then listening also to koala music with my mother and her translating all of the lyrics for me

because she understands Urdu and it was just yeah it was a really um it's just really amazing how music was a thing that could tie us all together yeah absolutely and it was at primary school that someone came and did a jazz and blues class do you remember how it affected you uh yeah so my primary school was a catholic roman catholic primary school very south london primary school and um we often sang hymns which is you know if that's your vibe that's your vibe um but this man came in in year six and gave us this jazz and blues workshop and i'd got to hear you know summertime for the first time and i got to hear someone playing the piano and and not to a hymn for once and um and yeah it was just it felt like I was introduced to a whole new side of music that I'd never heard before neither one of my parents played jazz too tough

or or yeah jazz wasn't really a thing that was played that much growing up and I just took I just took to it really quickly I really enjoyed it and I was really amazed that we got this opportunity to have this workshop because it was a pretty, you know, it was a South London school at that time and there was only so much that we could do within the community and within what was in our reach. So it really opened my eyes to a world that I wasn't particularly aware of.

Yeah, and thank goodness they did because your voice is absolutely sensational, Joy. I have to mention there was an iconic moment for me when you went to the Brits and you went dressed in a lengua. And I'd never seen anything like it before at the Brits and I think I actually cheered when I saw a photograph of you wearing that. Why was it important for you to wear a South Asian outfit to the Brits? I kind of thought it would be funny.

And not funny in like a ha-ha way, but funny in the sense that I knew that no one was going to have the same outfit as me. And unfortunately, that's because the amount of South Asians in the music industry, in the Western music industry, is scarily low. And I did it because at the end of the day, wherever I go, I'm representing myself for my community. I just have to, for me, it's important that I turn up to places as myself. And it just felt like the right thing to do. And I knew that it would make my mama and grandma proud. And also just like, just to cause a little bit of controversy, you know,

because I knew that as much as it's a beautiful outfit, there was going to be some kind of controversy attached. And it wasn't, what I found really funny as well is that it wasn't designer. It was just from Monga in um in Southall so like even when all the fashion people were talking about these outfits on the red carpet they're like and this is this person in Burberry and this is this person in Jumanji and this is Joy I don't know what this I know that this is an Asari and I was like this is so hilarious to me because it just goes to show like really be no Asians in the music industry but okay cool

that must be quite an interesting space to be in then quite I mean it's depressing isn't it when you think about it it is depressing but it's also just like it's it's hilarious to watch everyone else do your job for you like I I just I like causing a little bit of disruption and it was just fun for me and at the end of the day our traditional wear is beautiful and I don't feel like I necessarily have to be in a design or this that and the other to represent myself. I just, I was comfortable and I felt strong. And that was the most important thing for me in that kind of space. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you are about to release your debut album.

It's coming out on the 15th of October. I loved how you announced it. You just said on Instagram, come down to the Tate Modern, I'm going to perform. And that's where you announced to the nation your album's coming out. Well, I projected it onto the dome of St Paul's Cathedral and then projected it onto Tate Modern. Amazing, amazing.

How are you feeling? It's very fun. Just quite overwhelmed, but also very ready. We are all ready, Joy. We are all ready. More power to you. you're incredibly talented i think we should have more more music from joy uh this is um this is a sneak preview this is skin from the upcoming album joy thank you so much thank you and i love you too what if you decide that you don't want to wake up too. I don't know what I'd do.

Cause I've built my life around you. Don't you know the skin that you're given was made to be lived in You've got the life You've got the life Worth living I mean, just sensational. Jay, because you're still in front of me in the studio. I mean, Joy Crooks, come on, that voice. I mean, she kind of reminds me of Amy Winehouse. Yeah, you know, she she's but then she has that extra flair. I don't know. I'm really excited about her. Me too. Me too. I'm very

excited about her. Very excited. Yes, the album's coming out October 15th. Her name's Joy Crooks, if you didn't know, just just do little Google. Now, on to parenting. Or parenting children from five to 12, to be more precise. I know lots of you have had a real year of it with homeschooling. Well, maybe my next guest could give you a few ideas to make life more efficient and help you make those big life decisions like what school to go to, when to get a phone,

when to start school, and should they play sport or not? Well, the economist Emily Oster is best known here for her books that look at the evidence behind parenting myths. Much of the advice for pregnant women is contradictory. And so her books looked at the data behind issues like drinking in pregnancy and risks associated with induction dates. Well, she's back now with a new book, Family Firm, but this time she's focused on primary school years. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Emily. The Family Firm. Thanks so much for having me. It's great to have you. The Family Firm suggests applying business principles

to your family. Tell us more. I think the central point in this book is that when we start parenting older kids, there are many more decisions and that our schedules are busier and that we can do better in that era if we take a more intentional or deliberate approach, not dissimilar from some of the ways we think about work in thinking about how we want our lives to be structured and in making some of these big choices about our kids. And so you've created a toolbook for young families and you start with a framework, the four Fs, to answer big questions. Tell us about the four Fs. Yeah, so I suggest that when parents find themselves in the face of a big question, like what school should we pick,

that they think about the decision in a structured way. They start by framing the question, by asking what exactly are the options that I have? They then, what I call fact find, they think about what data do I need? Is there some evidence from science data? And also about the logistics, you know, how are these things going to work? How would everything fit together? Once you have all that information in one place, that they then sit down and make a final decision and try to have a plan for a time to decide and then move on. And then the fourth F is follow up to say when many of our decisions, we tend to think of them as totally invaluable.

Like once we've chosen to have our kid play sport, we can't go back and change our mind. But in fact, we can and that parents should plan to rethink some of those decisions and make sure that they're working for the family. So what sort of big decision making does this book help you tackle? So I think the book has, you know, that kind of framework for decisions that are going to affect sort of every day, like big extracurricular commitments, schools, should my kid get a phone? And then the book has more of a framework for thinking about smaller everyday decisions or thinking about almost what are the main building blocks of your life. So suggesting to people that they think about,

you know, do I want to be sitting down for dinner with my family every day, kind of in general, how do I want to think about bedtime, that there's a value in sort of stepping back and thinking about the big picture, which then will help you make a lot of smaller decisions in a more efficient way. And you suggest that every family needs a family mission statement. Yeah, I think I sort of I do suggest that. And I also I think sort of a part of that is really saying that you want to kind of get on the same page about what, what you're trying to do. Like what are the central values?

What are the pieces of your life or your, even your day-to-day that are important to you? And so the mission statement's a piece of that. There's a few other ideas, but I think the, the real goal there is to sit down with the rest of the family or the other decision makers and say, you know, hey, like, let's make sure we understand that we agree on what we're trying to accomplish here or what's important to us. I know, because ever since I read that, I was like, what's my family mission statement? I need a mission statement. What's your family mission

statement, Emily? It's funny. So I think it's something along the lines of, you know, prioritize family time and raise adults. So something in that space of like sort of thinking about that we're kind of, we're trying to raise people who would be adults. But I will say that as my, like in our family, the biggest piece of these sort of writing things down is the kind of practical day-to-day, like making sure that we, that the things that are like family dinner is very important to me. Sort of that's the kind of thing where I want to make sure that my spouse and I are on the same page about it because I will be sad if we don't have that. I mean, this book might be

daunting for some people, you know, mission statements, meetings, people listening to this might think surely it's about instinct and feelings. And how is this book going to help me deal with a toddler who's having a tantrum in the supermarket? Yeah, so I don't think it's going to help you. I have another book for a toddler who's having a problem in the supermarket. You know, but I think that there is a value in the sort of intentionality that is different from saying, you know, this is a book about using spreadsheets to do more activities, that in fact, like people are already doing this work. They're just doing it in a kind of a haphazard way. They're already making all these choices. They just could be making them in a way that would, where the choice would better reflect their central values. And so there is some work up front, but I think the argument is that you can do a little bit of that work and then the day-to-day of your life will be happier and that that may be worthwhile.

What if you have fundamental differences with your partner? Because you suggest having meetings and then follow-up meetings with your partner, but what if you just think very differently? What if someone's into this idea and the other person isn't at all? So I think whether they're into this particular idea, I think that's more complicated. But if you're sort of, I think there are places where you say, well, my partner and I don't agree on our central values. And so I don't want to sit down and write them down because I know we're going to disagree. And I think what I would say is that those disagreements will be surfaced in your day-to-day interactions no matter what. If you disagree in some fundamental way, there's not a way to not have those conflicts. And by the suggestion here is that if we have

those conflicts almost on purpose, if we say, hey, let's deliberately try to figure out our way through this, rather than just having those conflicts every single day, when we are experiencing the moment and getting angry with each other, there's a reason maybe to surface some of the conflict, which I think we're uncomfortable with doing. But we may be able to better work through them if we don't surface them constantly when we're mad. Who are you aiming this book at? Because the considerations are quite aspirational, and many parents are just coping and potentially living on the breadline. So who is this book for? So I actually think that good decision making tools, that abilities to be intentional and think about what is going to make you happy in the side of the constraints you have,

that should not be the purview only of people with tremendous amounts of resources. And in fact, the more constraints in some ways, the more value there want to figure out how they can do more things to make their kids like more, more better. I think that it would be a mistake to think that that we should not help people make better decisions, even even if the choices are more constrained. And you have a 10 year old and a six year old. In terms of your family principles, how has the approach helped you? I think the main thing is giving, the main value for us here is giving confidence in the decisions that we make and, you know, making it possible for one of us to be around and the other person not

and sort of understand that, like, we sort of are running our family, even if only one of us is there, in a way that makes us, that we kind of have both agreed on. So I think for us, those sort of dual things, like being confident in the decisions, even when in the moment you're like,

I don't know if this is going. It's like, no, I made the decision in the right way and I can be confident moving forward. Emily, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you so much. Now, Hot Girl Summer is a term coined Emily, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you so much. Now, Hot Girl Summer is a term coined by American rapper and music sensation Megan Thee Stallion. You might have seen the phrase across social media on Instagram captions, TikTok hashtags, Facebook statuses,

even on clothing as it's become part of the day-to-day vocabulary for millennial and Gen Z women across the globe. Well, let's take a listen to Megan Thee Stallion's 2019 song, Hot Girl Summer. Now, Megan defined Hot Girl Summer as to be you just having fun, turning up, driving the boat like that and not giving a damn about what nobody's saying. But why, two summers later, are people still using the phrase? And what does Hot Girl Summer actually mean? Well, as you know, Shay Mimona is with me. She's journalist and beauty and features assistant at Glamour. And Scotty M. Famous is an erotic romance author, blogger and self-described sex fluencer. And she joins us now as well.

Morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Shay, I'm going to start with you. What does Hot Girl Summer actually mean? I think that the definition is pretty fluid. So when Megha said it, she kind of was like, it's about being authentically you. And obviously we we all different. So the way that I see Hot Girl Summer is very different than, you know, you would see it. And I think that is really just about not really caring what the, like, not really following

society rules, but following your own rules. And as long as you're safe and you're happy, that's the main important thing. And it's one of those terms as well that people kind of use, because it started to unite us as women, it united everybody, because for the first time, we have one thing in common. We just want to be hot, and we want to enjoy summer and we want to be happy. So that's what I think that's what it means. I know we all I know we're all waiting for a hot summer as well, in order to be hot in the summer yeah scotty if there's no rules and it's just a state of mind is the term actually meaningless what does it mean i think it's all about having this sort of authentic experience of yourself whereas you know growing up we had a

lot of rules to abide by you know you have to look like this and talk like this and do you know what i mean and now we're in a day and age where we have all these different movements from the sex positivity movement, the body positivity movement, all these different kind of things, even more acceptance of like the LGBTQ plus space. And it's just really about living your best authentic life. I love that. Absolutely. I've been thinking about it for the last 24 hours what is my definition of hot girl summer and it is to be able to live your life without shame so much of women's lives are shamed and is that what this is about it's saying you know I'm just going to own my space and not as she says care. Scotty? Yeah it's very much that. You know, even with her whole thing, like her fan base being called hotties,

it's like you already have that stamp of approval, like come as you are, you know, nothing is out of bounds here. Whatever is good for you, as long as you are happy and you're not hurting anybody, like just go for it. It's a very empowering movement that she's started. Why is she such an important figure for Black and LGBTQ plus and queer women? I think, first of all, like, if we look at Megan herself, like, she is, you know, a thick girl. So there is that whole thing with, with you know the whole curvier thing coming

into play and then another thing if we look at her you know she's a darker skinned black woman which historically you know hasn't always been at the forefront and yet here she is she's like the poster child for it at the moment um and i think i don know, she just makes you want to believe in your own force. I don't know if that's the best way to describe it. But you believe in your own hotness, like, yeah. And how is what she's doing different to other body positive and sexual liberation movements? Because that's part of it as well isn't it yeah um i think because she is you know naturally being a woman in the hip-hop scene you know she is very sexual

with how she presents herself but then when we get megan as well it's not just oh i'm sexy and i can you know twerk and whatever like that's wonderful we love that but it's also you know, twerk and whatever. Like, that's wonderful. We love that. But it's also, you know, she's there, and she's getting her degree. She's like, you know, go be a smart hot girl. Like, go and get your money up. Do you get what I mean? And even, as you said, like, with the whole queer thing, you know, she's part of the HBO show Legendary and stuff.

She's very supportive of everybody. And in the past, especially in the hip hop genre, that's not always something that we have seen. So it's, she's refreshing. She is very, she is the moment. She is the moment. And she's incredibly empowering as well. And it's led to all sorts of memes

and the term being used for different things. And this summer it became synonymous with the vaccine, didn't it, Shay? People said, what was it? Shot girl summer, hot vax summer. Apparently someone on Twitter wrote there is no hot girl summer without vaccinated girl spring. So what's this all about? Yeah, but in addition to what Scotty was saying, which was absolutely spot on, I think that Meghan kind of like attracts all kinds of women so it's not just a you know the black girls or the curvy girls or the girls that you know are sexually liberated it's every girl like

she was saying that she you know she's all about her books and she's really studious and I think that because it's applying to everybody like we are in a pandemic still kind of so we have to be realistic about what our summer should look like. So then I think people are kind of using the term, but still trying to find some positivity in the times that we're in, because realistically, things are still really hard and people are having a hard time. But if we have something fun to look forward to, that just makes the time a bit better. So yeah, hot back summer is very funny.

Oh no, the vaccination spring is brilliant and okay we've only got two weeks left till the end of august so depressing are we gonna have what comes after hot back hot summer do we hot girl autumn can we can it roll on it rolls on is a is a 12 month thing 24 7 lifestyle situation i actually think when we were talking about like um bodies remember how people used to say, oh, in the winter I'm going to get my body summer ready. That's a big middle finger to that because

you are ready now. You're going to be ready in December and you're going to be ready now. I mean, that is the message we are going to leave all our listeners with on a Friday morning on Woman's Hour. Scotty and Shay, thank you so much. Let's all have a hot girl weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Scotty and Shay, thank you so much. Let's all have a hot girl weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Sneakers? Trainers. Whatever you want to call them, they are amongst the most iconic cultural objects of our time. But their evolution is a story rarely told until now. From BBC Radio 4, this is Sneakernomics. Across this podcast, we're going to be telling the crazy origin stories of the most well-known sports companies and their relentless quest to be the world's number one brand. Sneakernomics tells the story of fierce competition and rivalry, one that tore families and friendships apart and even divided towns. We'll follow in the footsteps of mavericks, hustlers and dreamers and hear their tales of boom and bust, fame and infamy, hope and heartbreak.

Above all, this is the story of the people behind the shoes. From BBC Radio 4, this is Sneakernomics. Subscribe at BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.