Woman's Hour - Singer, Sophie Ellis-Bextor; Breast reconstruction delays; Urban hermits; Predatory marriage;

Episode Date: October 14, 2021

Sophie Ellis-Bextor has seven albums, five children, a podcast and her Live Kitchen Discos during lockdown were a means of virtual escapism for many, and became weekly moments of united sequined catharsis. She joins Emma to discuss her memoir Spinning Plates: Music, Men, Motherhood and Me.Claudia Webbe, a former Labour MP for Leicester East, who now sits as an independent, was found yesterday guilty of one charge of harassment and is awaiting sentencing. She has vowed to remain an MP while she appeals against the conviction but the Labour party has called for her to resign, strongly condemning her actions. Those actions include threatening a woman with sending naked photos of her to her family and that she would throw acid in her face. We hear from solicitor Ayesha Nayyar, who has acted for a number of acid attack victims and campaigns for better support for survivors.Surgeons say women are being refused reconstructive breast surgery on the NHS, even though there are now ways of performing the operation more quickly. The confederation of British surgery say the procedure can be reduced from the traditional 8-12 hours down to 2-3, and hospital stays from 7 days to just 72 hours. Yet surgeons say many NHS Trusts still deem breast reconstruction as ‘cosmetic’, and are performing less than two-thirds of the amount of reconstructions they were pre-Covid.There are an estimated 1000 hermits living in Italy - and the majority of them are women. The history of female hermits goes back hundreds of years, with many choosing to remove themselves from a life of marriage and domesticity to a world of study, devotion and freedom from the expectations of society. But what is it like to be a hermit living in the modern world? Emma speaks to urban hermit Julia Bolton-Holloway about the misconceptions people have about the eremitical life, her journey from university lecturer to Anglican nun and now Catholic hermit - and how she balances a life of poverty, chastity and obedience with a dedication to actively helping those most in need.Predatory marriage involves a vulnerable adult being led into a marriage which financially benefits their new spouse. We discuss with Daphne Franks, who believes that her mother was a victim of a predatory marriage; and Dr Rachael Clawson, Associate Professor in Social Work at the University of Nottingham.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Ayesha Nayyar Interviewed Guest: Nicola Johnston Interviewed Guest: Dhalia Masud Interviewed Guest: Julia Bolton-Holloway Interviewed Guest: Daphne Franks Interviewed Guest: Dr Rachael Clawson Interviewed Guest: Sophie Ellis-Bextor Photographer: Laura Lewis

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. On the day where the Health Secretary has told GPs in England to see more patients face-to-face while unveiling what's been called a £250 million winter rescue package, surgeons have told this programme that women are being refused reconstructive breast surgery on the NHS. It's, of course, part of a bigger picture

of what the pandemic has meant for wider healthcare. You're also just hearing there in the news about A&E waiting times having got worse. But surgeons are also concerned, and this is something we'll get into, that NHS trusts are still deeming breast reconstruction as a cosmetic procedure. Now, you may have a particular view or experience of that story. And of course, I want to hear from you on 84844. But what I wanted to know also more broadly today is how the pandemic has affected

your healthcare. What hasn't happened perhaps that should have done? What effect this has had on you and those around you? What have you or a loved one not been able to sort the unintended health consequences of a global pandemic? Text me here at Women's Hour with 84844. Text will be charged to your standard message rate. Get in touch with me on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me what's happened to you or rather what's not happened to you through our website.

And what do you suspect is being used as the reason? Maybe you see it as an excuse. Maybe you also, in the same mind that you're very frustrated, have a lot of sympathy, of course, for those who are working on the front line of our health care. Where are you with this? And perhaps you are working in a very stretched part of the system and you know that you're turning people away or not doing what needs to be done because of what else needs to be done. We want to hear those voices very much so today as well. Also on the programme, life as a female urban hermit. We have tracked one down and we'll tell you more.

The woman campaigning against what she describes as predatory marriage. If you know about that or don't, a description and a very heartfelt story to follow. And Sophie Alice Baxter will be in the studio. She's on hand to get us all moving in your kitchen or wherever you get your dance moves. I'm looking forward to that. But first, I'm sure you will have seen this. A female MP is facing prison

after being convicted of harassing a woman because she was jealous of her relationship with her partner. Claudia Webb, a former Labour MP for Leicester East, she now sits in the Commons as an independent, was found guilty yesterday of one charge of harassment and is awaiting sentencing. She's vowed to remain an MP while she appeals against the conviction, but the Labour Party has called for her to resign, strongly condemning her actions.

Those actions include threatening another woman with sending naked photos of her to resign, strongly condemning her actions. Those actions include threatening another woman with sending naked photos of her to her family and a threat that she would throw acid in her face. Well, I'm joined now by the solicitor, Ayesha Nayar, who has acted for a number of acid attack victims and campaigns for better support for survivors. Good morning. Good morning.

I thought I'd start with survivors. What sort of impact do you think this case and this verdict and the actions of this MP will have on survivors? Well, I've acted for many survivors over the last 10 years, and I can tell you now, waking up, reading this story, every single person who's had acid thrown on them and reads a story like this, it will bring back the pain and the horror of that acid attack that happened. And remember, with acid attacks, it's not just the physical aspect of a psychological attack. It's the psychological aspect as well. So this will make many, many acid attack survivors relive what they went through. So it's absolutely horrific. And honestly, when I read stories like this,

it makes me so, so angry having acted for acid attack victims. This woman is a present Member of Parliament. Absolutely. And that's why this is serious on so many different levels one she's a woman and and historically we've assumed acid attacks are you know gang related down in the capital but this is a woman you know a woman threatening another woman and it does happen sadly this is a woman threatening another woman she's an mp she is a so-called pillar of society. You know, in theory, a role model that we all should look up to. You know, we respect, we want to represent her. And then you've got a lady who, you know, if you look at Claudia Webb, she looks very respectable.

She comes across very well. Threatening to throw acid on another woman. You know, from my view, you know, it's disgusting. It's outrageous. What I will say is, claudia you quite rightly said that in the intro and she has said she will be appealing this decision but as she stands as it stands presently she has been convicted um and you know it's a very very sad story for us all to be waking up to i suppose the other thing is how how common potentially or not you you tell me your take on this has that entered our common parlance? You know, threats that people say in the heat of the moment, that is in no way defending it.

But the idea that saying that you're going to throw acid, that somebody deserves acid, is that now part of what people can and do say to each other, do you think? Especially when we hear an MP has done this and been convicted? Well, sadly, yes. And what we do know is, and the Acid Survivors Trust have said that the UK has the highest rates of acid attack per capita. And that's a shocking statistic. This isn't something that's happening in the undervalued world back in India and Pakistan and Africa. This is a problem in our society, in the UK UK that we cannot ignore. What we do know is attacks in London increased by 270%. And the reason I give you those statistics is to make you understand that acid attack and the language around it and normalization of threats like I'll

throw acid on you. They're on the backdrop of real acid attacks occurring so sadly this has become the norm in some areas of using phrases like and you know i'll throw acid on you or threats of throwing acid you've just got to hope that none of those threats materialize in the way we know that that they have done i mean we don't know claudia with threat and throwing acid you know i'd like to think that it was just an empty threat, allegedly. But there's people that go through with these threats. So what's worrying about throwing those words around and normalising phrases like, I'll throw acid on you is, there's a percentage of people that actually take that next step, go out and throw that acid. And that's where we you know, we all need to be very, very worried.

What message does it send that she remains an MP having threatened to throw acid on someone? I think it's absolutely wrong. You know, throwing acid, I would welcome anybody, any of the politicians to come and sit with me and speak to acid attack. We call them survivors because they've survived this acid, this horrendous

act of acid throwing you know i'd invite any of them to come along and sit with me and speak to acid attack victims and see the life that they live you know this acid attack it's not just the initial throwing of acid what we what you've got to remember is these people live with the pain of an acid attack every single day numerous skin grafts you know I've acted for victims who've ended up blind because acid was thrown on their face deaf because half their ear melted that psychological aspect aspect of nightmares flashbacks you know constantly looking over their shoulder so I've had clients who've said to me they were suicidal after the event so when you balance that with a lady who's threatened

another lady to throw acid on her and then you've got these victims yeah i i think it's absolutely wrong i will say she's appealing that decision is not upheld you know absolutely she should do and and she is at the moment also though awaiting sentencing and i should say that obviously if she receives a custodial sentence suspended or or not that she will be a by-election in Leicester East. And of course, if anyone's listening in Leicester East and you want to get in touch about the conviction of your MP, you can get in touch. But from you and what you've just said,

with the conviction as it stands, do you think she should resign as an MP? Absolutely. There's no doubt about it. With the conviction as it stands, I think, and as I said at the start, these are pillars of society, these are people we vote for, we want them to represent us. I don't want somebody representing me that threatens to throw

acid on somebody else. As she stands, she's been criminally convicted. Ayesha Nair, thank you very much indeed. A solicitor who has acted for a number of acid attack survivors and victims and campaigns for better support for survivors. Of course, if you have something to say on that, do get in touch, 84844.

Now, surgeons have told Woman's Hour that women who have undergone a mastectomy are being refused reconstructive breast surgery on the NHS. It's part of the bigger picture of what the pandemic has meant for wider healthcare or not. But surgeons are concerned that NHS trusts are still deeming breast reconstruction as cosmetic. And this is coming to light on a day where the government has committed that emergency money to try and boost the number of face-to-face GP appointments. Our reporter Melanie Abbott has been looking into this. Melanie, lots of operations put on hold because of the pandemic? Well, that's right, yes. But the

Confederation of British Surgery,, that's right, yes. But the Confederation of British Surgery, and that's a trades union for surgeons, thinks that breast reconstructions are right at the back of the queue. There's also been a straw poll by the British Association of Plastic Reconstructive and Aesthetic Surgeons, and they found that their members are operating at less than two thirds their pre-COVID rates. And it does seem worse for women who don't get a reconstruction at the same time as they have a mastectomy. Women like Nicola Johnston, she's 53 from Bristol, she had a mastectomy in 2018, decided in January last year that she was ready for a reconstruction, but she's still waiting. I accepted there would and could be a wait. However, what I wasn't prepared for, obviously none of us were, was for the effects of Covid.

And I was extremely understanding about all of that. And in fact, I was still very close to the top of the list. I was number four, I think, for a very long time. But that obviously with Covid, things had intervened. What impact is the waiting like this and not knowing when it might happen what impacts that having on you? Well it's it's multifarious to be honest I I know I have to come off my I'm also on a hormone therapy treatment for the next 10 years I know I have to come off that because there is a risk of DVT and blood clots. So I have to be able to plan. I think it's a two to four week period of being completely off that drug prior to surgery. Obviously, I at the moment have absolutely no idea when it's going to happen. I can't really plan anything. Bizarrely,

I can't really get stuck into a weight loss program because I need there to be enough fat cells to harvest from my stomach in order for this operation to be viable. And I just feel totally in limbo. I was very lucky that I met a wonderful man, Colin, right at the beginning of this adventure, I'd like to call it. And we married in December last year. Oh, congratulations. Thank you very much. There's some lovely news too. But, you know, my daughter was very young when I was diagnosed. She was, I think, 13. She's had to live through, lot of watching me in a fair bit of trouble. I think for all of us, it would just be so mentally such a massive step forward

that I didn't feel so conscious of the fact I have no cleavage, the fact I feel so unbalanced. Nothing fits properly when you only have one breast, even with the best prosthetic breasts in the world. And you're always very aware of the fact that you have a totally flat chest on one side. And quite often, you know, people are very sorry. And if I bend down, I'm doing Pilates,

your top may reveal that it's just totally concave on the side where you've had the breast removed. And you don't really want people's pity I would expect having survived this and got through this? No absolutely I've just finished my last chemotherapy treatment it could end up being many many years before I'm through the end of the the programme. Indeed, if that ever becomes available to me again. How do you feel about wearing a prosthetic breast? It's definitely better than nothing. But people have to realise, in particular the people making these decisions in the NHS not to offer the reconstruction,

is how very uncomfortable it is to wear these prosthetic breasts. Obviously you're more or less going straight away into full-on menopausal symptoms with the blockers for oestrogen so you're hot and sweaty a lot of the time and you have a sort of plasticated breast effectively and pretty much right next to your skin which obviously has a very large scar and the nerve endings are still trying to regrow often it feels a bit like pins and needles it feels very sensitive and so to wear a bra with a prosthetic breast pressing constantly on that scar area is actually incredibly uncomfortable. So there's always a huge relief at the end of the day to take it all off and just, you know, wear something a bit more floaty and relax and give it all a bit of a rest but then you know I have a new husband I feel very uneasy fully undressed in front of my husband

in a gym environment I sit with my back to everyone my lovely mum made me a special wraparound towel with velcro so I could have two hands to get everything in and out of the because nothing stays up either because you're lopsided you can't just tuck your towel in I'm trying very hard to get back to fitness I've joined a Nordic walking group and I lead the over 70s on some lovely walks in and around Bristol and you know everything is sort of all systems go and the part that just holds me back all the time is just being so aware of how my left breast looks and how it behaves when I'm walking when I'm running I have to admit I I do find it really quite depressing. Does it almost feel like you won't really be able to put all of this behind you until you've had

the reconstruction? I think that's right. I just don't think you can feel like you're out of no man's land. In short, I just feel that I'm too young at 53 to spend the rest of my life with only one breast I just want and need to put this chapter of my life firmly behind me don't get me wrong I love my body it's been through such a lot and it's what's kept me alive but just this one thing would change mentally so much. Nicola Johnson there talking to our reporter, Melanie Abbott, who's still here. Melanie, what's her local hospital said? Yeah, the North Bristol NHS Trust told me in a statement

that due to the unprecedented pressures relating to COVID-19, surgical teams have focused on cancer treatment and urgent life and limb saving surgery. So some patients have waited longer than we would want for other procedures, they say, including some reconstruction surgery. And they say they are incredibly sorry for these delays. Melanie Abbott, thank you for that. I can now talk to the surgeon, Dalia Masood, who's managed to get these operations restarted last year at her hospital, the Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital. Good morning.

Morning. How did you manage to get them restarted? Well, as with everything, a lot of politics, negotiation. And your previous interview was very powerful. It's re-establishing the importance of reconstruction as part of the breast cancer treatment, ensuring and also importantly, making sure we can do this without massive burden on resources on the NHS. So reconstruction isn't just me doing the operation. It's making sure the anaesthetist are happy to

put the patient to sleep at a time during COVID where there was so much evidence coming out say reconstruction or long surgeries can put the patient at risk in terms of complications if you develop COVID there's a certain amount of risk of death and we had to fight and do our own research to prove that a it's safe b we can do this and reducing the amount of resources and making sure that the patients are psychologically and mentally complete after the surgery. And it was quite difficult doing that, but we had to get the entire nation on board to do that, really. We don't know the exact picture around the UK. We invited someone from NHS England on to discuss this. No one was available. Similarly, no minister from the Department of Health.

NHS England told us it doesn't keep a list of which trusts are performing reconstructions, but in a statement said there's been no national decision to pause breast reconstruction surgery during the pandemic,

but caring for nearly half a million COVID patients inevitably had an impact on routine operations. NHS staff are now working incredibly hard to tackle this and ensure patients are getting the care that they need. And the department of health said our record investment is helping tackle the

backlog in the nhs including 10 billion pounds over the next three years putting a couple of payments together there but i suppose what you're saying there which i want to ask about especially in light of some of the messages that we've got coming in for instance this one which says chemo a mastectomy and radiotherapy saved my life reconstructive surgery gave me my confidence back i became a positive woman again and not a permanently anxious cancer survivor it needs to be part of cancer treatment the pandemic seems to have broken that link between seeing it as part of treatment how confident are you that that link's being rebuilt? It's slowly being rebuilt. We need, before, prior to the pandemic, or when the pandemic came about, we quite rightly said it was right at the bottom of the pile.

And that was because of statements by the Royal College of Surgeons who described it as P4. All surgery were prioritised one to four. P4 is the lowest priority. Now, with our work and with our negotiations, we were able to bring it to P2, which is a much higher priority. Now, although they're numbers, it means that we are able to fight for resources with the backing of the Royal College to say this is important surgery. Why do you think it was put to P4, though? Do you think

it is because it's not life-saving or do you suspect there's something else at play i think it's a combination of cultural awareness in terms of breast reconstruction how it affects patients even within our own medical field it's still considered what you describe as cosmetic it's not cosmetic it's a psychological functional aspect of a person when it comes to their treatment now in your in your in your previous talk we were talking about mental effects these are 20 of breast cancer patients are under 50 these are tax paying members of the community who are mothers sisters daughters when you are delaying their reconstruction you're delaying their time and affecting them going back to work.

Lots of people can't go back to work. They can't focus on work. They have to take time out. And you have an unquantifiable effect on the economy by denying them their reconstruction, which they should have. So it's not just a cosmetic thing. It's a functional and it affects the entire economy when such a huge number of people are denied the surgery. Yes. And I mean, also to say here, again, looking at some of these messages coming in, not everybody obviously wants that. You know, there are whole other reasons why people do not want reconstruction that makes them feel another way. And I'm just keen to reflect that. That having been said is I understand from you that the procedure can also be reduced in terms of the amount of time that it takes and the amount of days for hospital stays. So there's actually some good news as well on the horizon with advances. Yeah. So with Covid, as with every aspect of society, people decided to become more efficient in everything.

Now, although as a surgeon, efficiency is always at the back of our mind, but COVID just pushed it forward. And surgery isn't just a surgeon, it's the anaesthetist, it's the nurses. And because everyone was able to become more efficient, we were able to reduce our operative time from six hours to two and a half, three hours. We were able to reduce the hospital inpatient time from seven days to 72 hours. Now this is everyone working very closely together and cutting down all the unnecessary aspects of our hospital admission, our paperwork, to make sure that there is minimal

burden on the NHS in terms of finances and resources. So we have done a lot to make it efficient and that's probably one of the reasons why we have been able to start and continue throughout the process over the last couple of years or year and a half. Do you worry sexism is at the heart of this as well? Sue's just asking you that question. She says no doubt a man will have led this decision to put reconstruction down the agenda what's your take are you allowed to say yeah i'm allowed sexism i think it's difficult for me to say um i i think as surgeons we're professionals um and we see we go into breast reconstruction because we understand the importance of breast no. No, no, no, as surgeons, yes, but she's talking about the decisions at NHS trusts.

There may be an element of sexism, but it's not from the medical profession. It may be from people outside the medical profession who make decisions and don't understand. I wouldn't call it sexism. I would call it people who don't understand what breast cancer is and breast cancer reconstruction is. That's what I would describe it as.

Slightly put you on the spot there with a message from Sue in Cornwall. But there you go, Adelia. Thank you very much for talking to us. Adelia Massoud, who's been trying to and has been successfully able to get these reconstruction operations restarted last year at her hospital. Keep your messages coming in at many about this topic and also the wider healthcare picture and we'll come back to some of your messages very powerful messages with regards to our opening story which was looking at the former Labour MP Claudia Webb

who's been found guilty of harassment harassing a woman, a woman to a woman and threats around acid because some of you have got some issues around that and some experiences to share but I want to take you to a completely different place, if I may. Let's have a bit of this. If you think you're getting away, I will prove you wrong.

I'll take you on away. Say another song. I'll blow you all away. It's a matter of the dance floor. Her live kitchen discos during lockdown were a means of virtual escapism for many, including myself, and became weekly moments of united, sequined catharsis. Sophie Ellis-Bexter, of course.

Seven albums, five children, a podcast, now a memoir. Spinning plates, music, men, and motherhood, and me. She joins me now here in the studio. A studio guest is always still such a treat at this point, Sophie, and that it's you, Sophie. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. How are you doing?

I'm okay. And I think your life in numbers there, there'll be many other numbers. It's quite extraordinary to say it out loud like that. How is it for you? Yeah, I think I'm still sort of taking stock of a lot of that. Particularly, I'm sure a lot of people with, you know, kids can also identify with that. During the pandemic, I felt like I had a lot of that. Particularly, I'm sure a lot of people with, you know, kids can also identify with that.

During the pandemic, I felt like I had a lot more than five children. It just felt like maybe 20 or something like that. Just seemed to be everywhere. Lots of things. They'll do that, especially five boys all around you. It does seem you alternate albums and babies. That was my plan a while back. Yeah, I think my husband thought or hoped I was joking, but I stayed true to that plan for a little while. Yeah. But you had the first one very early on in your relationship, didn't you? Yes. We actually found out that we were having our first baby when we'd been dating for about six weeks. So that was a bit of a surprise. But Sonny's now 17 and four more joined him after that one. So, yeah, it was quite a dramatic beginning to our relationship.

Does he, like his mother, think he's going to be famous, do you think, when he's older? Because you had this. No, I don't think so. But yeah, when I wrote that in the book, my toes did curl a little bit. It's quite a cringey sentence to write. It is. Let's get into the cringe.

I love a bit of cringe. Why did you know or think you were going to be famous? I think possibly because of my childhood with my mum being on Blue Peter. So I was sort of aware of the currency of that celebrity that came with her presenting that programme. I mean, the literal currency of a badge, right? Yes, true. Currency in a very literal way. If I had my hands on those, you know, you could do some trades in the playground.

Isn't that extraordinary that I even tried that? It's, again, quite embarrassing. You did try and sell them, didn't you? I did, yes, for 50p or a pound with an autograph. But it was an ill thought out business plan because no one ever brought any small change to the playground at primary school. So I'm not sure I day job when I'm older. Although weirdly, I didn't really want to be famous. I wouldn't say it's that I did spend a lot of time at secondary school practicing my autograph, ready for use when I was older. Yeah. I also think, you know, you obviously wanted to go to something different, that you wanted to go to music.

And that wasn't easy, was it? I mean, it really was quite hard and actually to get the break as well. What was the break? Well, actually, initially it came, it did come pretty easy because the first band I joined when I was 16 was called The Audience. And by the time we'd done six gigs, we had six record company offers from major labels. So I turned 18 in April and we chose which label we'd signed to, which was Mercury, part of Universal. And then I sat my A-levels in May.

And then by June I'd finished and off we went. And I just went straight from school into that. And so I thought, whoo, this is really quite straightforward, you know. Here we go. But then by the time I was 19, we were having real difficulties making our second album and we got dropped by the time I was 20.

So actually it was sort of four years that showed me all the highs and the lows of the music industry very, very quickly. I learned a lot. And I suppose what I meant by that was also, you carving your own um your own career as a soloist now that that was trickier wasn't it definitely and certainly by 21 I thought I was high and dry I thought maybe I'd already had the biggest success I was ever going to have behind me really um but then I got thrown a bit of a bit of a rope from groove jet which was a track i wasn't expecting for part of my life

because when it came along it was a dance track you know come from house music and i was someone who'd always been in an indie band so i was actually quite insulted that i've been sent this track as a potential vocalist because i thought that's just not my genre there's something about it i liked and actually happily i'm still on very good terms with that song which is a good job because i've been singing it for half my life i was gonna say it must be the one is it the one that everybody always wants to make sure they hear or how does that go I don't know I think it's probably a tie between Groovejet and Murder on the Dance Floor because both of them I suppose well for my my peers it's the song that is synonymous with maybe being at uni or having those holidays with their

friends in their early 20s so yeah Groovejetove Jet and Murder are both 21 and 20 now. They're quite grown up. But yeah, I'm still very happy to sing. I'm trying to think how many times you must have sang those songs. I know, I'd love to know that actually. And you never know as well. When you write songs, you never know which songs are the ones that are going to be those songs that end up being part of the,

you know, your sort of core set list every time. Writing a memoir allows you to go back through things and think about it differently and I also know you've reflected on the so-called ladette culture of the 90s and I know that you were made to feel very uncomfortable at times by male journalists. Yes yes I think it was you know partly the culture partly obviously my own perspective I went to an all-girls school from the age of 11 my um the only sort of boy in my family was my little brother who's eight years younger than me I just didn't have a lot of boys that I knew I didn't know how to hang out with them so by the time I was a

teenager and in a band full of blokes and then being interviewed by blokes I found it all quite intimidating quite a lot of the time and certainly when I looked back at some of the questions that was being asked sort of of 18, 19, they were, I don't think there were questions you'd ask a teenage girl now, just quite inappropriate questions, quite personal questions.

Like what? I don't know, like, would you rather go without sex for a year or have a wet dream every night or something stupid like that? But it'd be things, I think I always felt like

they were designed to make me turn a bright shade of scarlet and run out of the room or show that I could completely keep up and it was fine. And the truth was, I felt quite mortified by a lot of it. I felt like I was trying to sort of keep up, really. And I remember sometimes I'd be, I don't know, on a TV programme or things and it would all feel quite bawdy.

And I was just supposed to, yeah, be able to prove that I could keep up with the guys, really. Well, you've also made the decision to include two very painful events in in the book uh the loss of your virginity in a date rape and a long and increasingly abusive relationship in your 20s why why did you choose to to talk about those and obviously people can read in more detail uh some of those those experiences it was really instinctive And I think those might have even been the first couple of chapters I started with. It's funny because when people have read the book,

sometimes they said it's quite brave to talk about it. I actually found it really empowering. And obviously it's painful, but I think the book starts with a happy ending. You know, I like my life. I'm happily married. I have my lovely children, great friends and family know I like my life I'm happily married I have my lovely children great friends and family I love my job but it's nice to unravel some of the threads that have led me here

and I'm sure a lot of people had that that feeling of a little bit of reflection during lockdown as well I think the serendipity of that going on while I was writing this probably helped me kind of access some of those memories but I just thought I think it's healthy for people to understand that you can come through those experiences and actually end up in a good place I don't know if I would have felt like that when I was in my 20s that that was out there in my future but also I just don't know when good things don't come out of difficult conversations like that and I'm very happy to have those have those chats and that's why the book is written in quite a conversational tone because I want to

continue those conversations I like I like talking. Do you? I do, I like talking. Couldn't tell. Well, you like dancing as well. You mentioned lockdown and the kitchen disco, it's a really important phenomenon, isn't it? Even if it wasn't in your life before. You know, the kitchen disco just came out of nowhere, obviously, you know, tied into a very unexpected turn of events globally, but became such a tonic in our household. So our kitchen already looks like that. We already had the sequin bunting, big disco ball, smoke machine, disco lights, turntable. So turning to music is natural for us.

My kitchen really needs an upgrade here from what we just hear at God. You can do these things very simply and they're very affordable, I promise you. So when I think everything was getting a bit tough and we first went into the lockdown, Richard suggesting, my husband suggesting, we should do a live stream, just felt like, well, I haven't really got any other plans. All the work had gone out the diary.

We were stuck at home. It was very stressful, very tense. Obviously day-to-day moments, quite nice, thank you. If I had to go into lockdown, those are the people I'd be choosing to go into lockdown with. But, you know, the hum of adrenaline and anxiety from the news music was an easy place to turn and doing the gig just felt like well why not really but I did think people were going to make fun of me I felt kind of ridiculous I put on my sequined catsuit belted through a sort of half-hour set tried not to stand on my crawling 14 month old child tried to stop my

then I think three-year-old from pulling out the wires of all this music stuff. But afterwards, we felt really good, Richard and I. It was like an immediate lift in our heads. So we just thought, right, that's what we'll do. We'll do them every Friday. And it became the perfect distraction and a really, really special community that came out of it. I've kind of got a lot of affection for everyone

that came over for those discos. And I think also, I know you're passionate about this, you know, raising boys who can dance and, you know, move like no one's watching at all ages. Yep, yep. And we work a lot on hip action, you know, because that's the bit that guys sometimes leave out. So I've got a lot of like very like wiggly little small people,

which I'm very proud of. And yeah, I think I want more to leave home, being able to dance and be able to cook. I think those are two good life qualities. I think they are indeed. I've got to ask, how many Blue Peter badges have you still got? You know what? Probably only about two.

I really whipped through my supply. Did you bring me one in? How much have you got on you? Have you got 50p? No cash. These are the post-pandemic. I always try and sell them at a time when no one's carrying any money. Mid-pandemic times, wherever we are, up to it.

Sophie Alice Baxter, it is called Spinning Plates, the memoir. Music, men, motherhood and me. Thank you so much. Thank you. For coming to talk to us today. Messages also just coming in off the back of our last conversation. Nuala says, I've just listened to the amazing woman talking about why she so badly wants and needs reconstruction surgery

after having a mastectomy. I had absolutely no idea what women with only one breast go through and why reconstruction is so necessary. In my naivety, I thought it was for aesthetic purposes. I'm ashamed to say I had no idea how uncomfortable a prosthetic breast is against scar tissue and the daily frustrations and embarrassment of being, quote, lopsided. Thank you for covering this area, although listening to your guest's account brought tears to my eyes. I feel more grateful than ever for my two, not very interesting, but completely whole breasts. Nuala really wanted to write in on that um and a message that we just got uh with regards as i said to my opening uh

discussion about the former labour mp claudia webb it's unacceptable for anyone to threaten someone else let alone an mp what i also don't understand is that she was unhappy with her boyfriend's friendship with another woman why didn't she raise it with him why did she think another woman was the problem here and a message here seven years ago my ex sent a text saying i should throw acid in your face to take away your looks he was found guilty under the malicious communications act and fined 300 pounds i still feel scared even when i hear the threat made to other people i feel fear it's an awful thing to threaten and it does seem to have become a trend. Thank you very much for those messages and feeling

like you could share that with us. Well my next guest is leading a campaign for greater awareness around something called predatory marriage. Such a union is where someone marries a vulnerable often elderly person for financial gain. Daphne Franks believes that her mother was a victim of a predatory marriage. Her mother Joan Blass was an 87 year old widow living with vascular dementia when she was befriended by a man 24 years her junior in 2011. Daphne learned after Joan's death in 2016 that they'd been married without her knowledge, and she believes that her mother lacked the capacity to consent to do so. Under English law, marriage automatically revokes an existing will, meaning her new husband inherited her entire estate. I asked Daphne how her mother met this man.

She said, and she already had a diagnosis of vascular dementia, so I'm not sure it's totally accurate, but it sounds likely. She said she was trimming some trees and he walked by. And she seems to have invited him in for a cup of tea or something. And again, that's not very characteristic of her. I think she'd have been a lot more cautious before she had dementia. And how was she at that time? How was her condition? At the time, she was beginning to show personality changes,

which is what got me to ask her to be diagnosed in the first place. She had been a ferociously intelligent woman and incredibly athletic, but suddenly she was becoming more forgetful.erociously intelligent woman and incredibly athletic but suddenly she was becoming more forgetful but that's not just it she would be alternately more compliant and then sometimes very hysterical and that just wasn't like her and and they meet over in the garden with the with the hedge uh and the work that she was doing as you understand it and then what happens in terms of them and their relationship and your awareness of it the first thing I saw of him were the were there some strange things in mum's house and I didn't know who they belonged to and then after

a little while we met him but his things were all over her house and some quite valuable things like an ipad and I just thought that was very strange and I asked mum who they belonged to and she didn't seem to know and she was just very confused about the whole thing. And were you talking to him at this point? Had you met him properly? This was before I met him and then I did meet him and he was very over friendly he always was in the early days the kind who uses your name twice in every sentence and puts his hand on your shoulder that kind of thing. Okay and were you aware of them being friends or what what was your understanding of the relationship? No mum always said who is he where did he come from did you get him for me and that one broke my heart later on

I think she thought if anything he was some sort of carer but then he starts living there yes but again he didn't tell us he started living there and mum would constantly say so where does he live and I was mum I think he's living with you is Okay, but I suppose what I'm trying to drive at, she could have been saying that to you, is there any understanding of you at this point of their relationship? Because obviously relationships come in different forms. Could they have formed some kind of loving bond, would you say? No, I wouldn't say so.

My mum was a very loving woman. If she met you for the first time today and you bent down and kissed her, she would kiss you back. That's what she was like. And a lot of people who have dementia are like that. But no, she never knew his name. She absolutely never knew it. She didn't know what his relationship was to her.

She certainly never thought of him as any kind of partner. Why did you accept his stuff all over the house? I'm just trying to think if it was my mother and I was living next door and some strange man, as I said I didn't know, and your mother didn't know the name of, had his stuff all over the place. Well, I'd do something about it. Or is it not as easy as that? It's not as easy as that. First of all, my dad had died a few years before, my mum had been very lonely. Now there was this man showing her a lot of attention and it was very difficult to know, it would have felt cruel to say, well, you've got a new friend, but we're suspicious of

his motives, so we're going to make him go away. She was enjoying his attention and I was a bit naive then probably. And, um, then after a while we did start asking people, what can we do? What can we do? And we were constantly told he's there at your mother's invitation. Because you did contact various people, didn't you? The GP, social services. We went to, um, finally we went to a solicitor um and she said oh no no he won't be able to she won't be able to make a new will because of her dementia she would need her

capacity assessed by a solicitor she won't be able so finally i said will she be able to marry but the solicitor said oh no no because of her dementia unfortunately what i didn't know was we needed a specialist solicitor that solicitor didn't know what she didn't know which is that there's so little safeguarding in place at marriage so what she told us was technically correct but actually not not practically correct i totally understand that you were going elsewhere asking what you can do, but when you actually saw him and spoke to him,

did he say anything to you to explain their relationship or his feelings towards your mother? No. And in fact, in all the hospital records, he was described as her carer because that's how he called himself to them. Even after they were married, he described himself as her carer. We have it in the hospital notes.

When did you find out they'd got married? Two days after my mum died, the phone rang and it was my mum's GP and he sounded really worried and he said, Daphne, did you know your mother was married? And the shock of it was just horrendous because we had relaxed. We didn't know that there were other things that we could have done because the solicitor had given us so much reassurance, no, you won't be able to do anything.

And what happened because she'd got married? What happened was the man inherited everything. What happened was I left my house, I left mum's house on the night mum died, expecting to go back in. And I left her dead body in the living room, expecting to see it again. And in fact, I never went back in the house and I never had any more time with her. I never saw her again. She's buried in an unmarked grave because he now had total control. It's just something I think our family will never get over, which is why I started campaigning for change. Because once I saw

this was relatively easy to do and once I realised we hadn't been able to protect her even though we lived 30 yards away, I thought if I couldn't protect my mum, nobody can protect their elderly parent. And then I started hearing from lots and lots of other cases. And the reasons that you weren't able to go back in is, and the reason that he was able to have control is obviously because he was married and then everything was his. Yes. And the police police said don't go in the house because there's going to be a criminal investigation here for forced marriage, so keep away. So again we did what we were told and we kept away and then the police spent a long time building the case but the Cps said they couldn't prosecute because no evidence is kept at marriage

there's no video recordings no audio recordings so even though even though we know we have it in writing from one of the registrars one of the registrars actually queried whether mum was fit to marry because she couldn't answer some of the questions on the day. She couldn't remember her address or her date of birth, but the man had kind of primed them by saying she's very old, she's had a stroke, she's very deaf, she's forgetful, all of which were true, but he never mentioned dementia. And the registrars who are untrained in assessing capacity, which is why I've never blamed them, they took his word for it. It actually says in the letter that we took, because the man had said she was forgetful, we accepted the answer she could give. So they don't have really robust procedures and they don't

tend to always follow the ones that they do have. The registrar, the general registrar office will say, oh yes, there are procedures. They've got to report it if they have any doubts. And that is true. But they don't always. And if they don't, there's no accountability. There's no consequences to the registrars, not that I think there should be, or to the General Register Office. Yes, you say that the police did send the file to the CPS to consider that forced marriage change but they decided against a prosecution. We've got this statement from the CPS which says we reviewed this case carefully and concluded there was insufficient evidence for a

realistic prospect of conviction. We explained our decision to Mrs Bass's family and our thoughts and sympathies remain with them. Theutions for forced marriage with dementia. There never have been. And there won't be until they change the procedures at marriage. And what are you asking for there specifically? What changes? What we want are robust procedures for registrars. It's not their fault. They are low paid clerical officials.

They shouldn't be having to assess mental capacity. But what they need are some robust procedures, a robust set of questions. If you can't answer this question, have a set of words that they are trained in. Unfortunately, because you have failed to registrars, registration offices to help them determine whether a person is being forced to marry someone against their will. If there are concerns, proceedings will be stopped or deferred until the registration office is satisfied that the individual is able to make an informed decision. The UK has safeguarded almost 3,000 people through forced marriage protection orders and the forced marriage unit continues to give advice and support to those who need it.

Do you still live next door to this individual? No, we couldn't bear to live next door to him. So we sold the old family house where we lived and moved away to North Yorkshire for a new start. I mean, I should say that we did attempt to contact the man who married your mother but didn't receive a response. In a previous statement, he'd said, Mrs Blass wanted to marry me and I believed at the time and still do that she has capacity to make that decision for herself.

Of course, you're completely at odds with that position as you've explained to us. I just wanted to end on a more personal note to sort of understand from you how this has left you and where this has left you. You're obviously pouring your energies into campaigning, but as a family, what has been the impact? Quite honestly, it nearly broke us. It's the loss of everything, because that was our old family home from 1959 that we had to leave, it swept away all those memories. I can't go back. I dream about it almost every night. And in my

dreams, there's always something horribly wrong. And I can't see that changing, really. That was Daphne Franks. I'm now joined by Dr Rachel Claus, an Associate Professor of Social Work at the University of Nottingham and an expert in the forced marriage of people who lack capacity to consent and who's starting to look into predatory marriage also. People listening to that, Rachel, will be thinking, how could that have been allowed? It's really interesting, isn't it? I think particularly as Daphne said her mum lived in a house in her garden. Daphne had lasting power of attorney for her mum as well. So it does seem pretty unbelievable when you put it into perspective that somebody actually living next door and seeing what's going on.

I think what's interesting is thinking about coercive control, thinking about this as an instance of grooming almost. So the man that married Daphne's mum was in a position to groom her mum and isolate her from the rest of the family and a leader to believe that he was caring for her. I think one of the difficulties is really having an understanding about what capacity to consent actually means. So although, I mean, the General Register Office are absolutely right, there's policy in place to help marriage registrars understand what forced marriage is. But what our research showed was when it comes to capacity to consent, that's a little understood. So the Anti-Social Behaviour Police and Crime Act made it an offence. I'm terribly sorry, Rachel. For somebody who lacks capacity to consent to marriage.

Rachel, your line is just going in and out. Just keep going if you can. Say that. OK, I'm sorry. OK. So I think what's difficult is actually people having an understanding of what capacity to consent means. And although marriage registrars have a good idea about what forced marriage is, they don't necessarily have an idea about what that means in relation to capacity to consent. Our research showed that there's very little understanding about how this can be assessed, what it looks like amongst a whole range of professionals and marriage registrars have very little training or tools or resources to actually be able to assess this. It can't be assessed in a matter of minutes, you know, in one meeting. And that's where the gap in the

knowledge appears to be about this and and what could have happened um in in different cases that may be ongoing right now or family members may be worried over dr rachel clausen thank you very much for your time now on women's hour we do pride ourselves in celebrating women from all walks of life the great and good to the most vulnerable women in society. Today we're going to hear a voice that you rarely hear, that of a female hermit. Many may assume that life as a hermit involves total isolation, perhaps living up a mountain and in silence. Perhaps you associate it with something more a man would do than a woman. But it's actually more nuanced than that. Being a hermit does involve committing to a life of poverty, chastity and obedience to God.

But it also involves living outside of the regular structures of society, meaning that hermits have a freedom to choose how to dedicate their lives to contemplation and service to the community. Italy has a particularly high number of hermits, estimated at over a thousand, and the majority of those are women. Julia Bolton Holloway is one of them. She's 84 and lives and works in a cemetery in Florence. Good morning. Good morning. I wondered if we could start with where you actually live.

I believe it's in the middle of the city. Right, and you can hear the ambulance right now, I'm afraid. We are in Piazzale, a large square in the center of it as the cemetery a monumental cemetery that was called the English cemetery but it's owned by the Swiss and many of the burials are of people who worked against slavery in the 19th century Elizabeth Barrett Browning and so forth and Frederick Douglass visited us and and And how did you come to this life? I had edited Elizabeth Barrett Browning for Penguin. I was born in England, left England at 16, was in America, studied, got my doctorate at Berkeley, taught at universities like Princeton, and then realized, was finally able after my

children were raised to realize my real dream of vacation, of joining my convent where I'd gone to school. It was the community of the Holy Family in Sussex joanna lumley was also a student there and um after four years the bishop ended us so i fled to italy with my books and the bookbinding equipment and lived for four years as a hermit up in monta benio above florence and then the Swiss offered me the job of looking after the cemetery, which had been abandoned. And so I set about the task of restoring it and researching it. And one of the things about the monastic life or the religious life is it's both active as well as contemplative. You seek to live as Christ did, going up into the mountains in prayer and then coming back to the people and healing and so forth.

And the gypsies, the Roma, came to me asking if they could garden. And they did. And they did and they did marvellous work they planted the whole cemetery with wild irises which are Florence's lily and it's now become a dream they restored the tombs they built the bookshelves they live with me, they cook, they clean, they're generous and kind. And I found that they have been slaves too in Europe. They came in the Middle Ages from India, and they were only freed with the publication of Uncle Tom's Cabin in Romania. And two of our burials here are of writers who were copied by Harriet Beecher Stowe in her Uncle Dom's cabin.

One was Frances Trollope, the mother of Anthony, and the other was Richard Hildreth, an American. And I was just going to say, to come back to you and the way that you're living, although that's obviously a big part of it and who you come into contact with and the stories that you hear. I know that you do have children and grandchildren. What do they make of your choice to live as a hermit? It was a bit difficult for them. When you join this kind of life, you have to sort of make sure that you pay all the debts to the past so you know i gave them everything i had and i hoped that all would be well and i do used to go every year to back to america to visit them all they're now even for grand great-grandchildren. And so we do maintain the sense of a family, but at a distance. And in a sense, now it's the Roma who have become my family.

I mean, there have always, we should say, been female hermits. And, you know, according to what we do know about hermits, it's quite a popular choice for women. Why do you think women are drawn to it? Well, it's the independence. When you become a hermit in the Catholic Church, it's now recognised after Vatican II, but you have to be self-sustaining, you have to be self-sufficient. And fortunately with my university pension, it's not very large, but it means that I do have enough to live on and to share it with others. And this sense of, for instance, devour of chastity, it means that you're not having to sort of play the mating game. You can be honestly yourself and you're independent of sexual relationships and so forth. You can instead concentrate on your fellow human beings as real people instead of the artificial way you have to present yourself and so on.

Is there anything you miss about your previous life when you weren't a hermit? Is there anything you still hunker after? Once in a while I'll see a beautiful coloured dress and say, wouldn't it be nice to have that? But I've been wearing the same colours now for 30 years. It's a relief in the morning. I don't have to make choices when I get dressed.

I know exactly what I'm going to be wearing. You're in a sort of uniform from what I can see there. Well, it's sort of. I hand sew everything. And when I went to Ireland, they were shocked that I was still dressed as a nun because of Tuam. But it's a way of saying I am who I am. This is my life.

And I'm not going to accept people wanting to change it. Julia, we're going to have to leave it there, but it was fascinating to talk to you. Thank you for doing so. Julia Bolton-Hollyway, thank you for your company today. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. This is Add to Playlist, a new podcast from BBC Radio 4 with me, Keris Matthews. And me, Geoffrey Boakye. Ditch the streaming algorithm as we take you on a musical journey of discovery. In each show, we'll create a playlist

of five tracks chosen by Keris and myself. And with the help of a different studio guest each week, we'll explore the rich and unexpected web of connections between the music you love, hate and haven't even heard of. That's a promise. We'll go under the bonnet of our compositions and look closer at the nuts and bolts to reveal what's behind our favourite tunes.

Just search for Add to Playlist on BBC Sounds. I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.