Woman's Hour - Singing Nuns, the US elections and women, the politicisation of Mumsnet? and what makes a good jobshare?

Episode Date: October 20, 2020

Jane Garvey talks to Sisters Leo & Aelread from The Poor Clares of Arundel who've just released an album of traditional plainchant with added beats. What can we learn from them about living life in these times? It's a couple of weeks now til the Presidential elections in the States and to discuss what it will mean for women we talk to Melissa Milewski, a lecturer in American History at the University of Sussex and Dr Michell Chresfield Lecturer in United States History, at the University of Birmingham. Has Mumsnet the popular website for parents which has spawned thousands of discussion threads become too politicised? Sarah Pedersen, Professor of Communication and Media at Robert Gordon University, Aberdeen, talks about her new book on the subject and what makes a good job-share work? Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Tim Heffer Photograph: Chris O'Donovan

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and it was a busy morning on the good old woman's hour on Tuesday the 20th of October 2020. Hello, good morning. As promised yesterday on the programme today we have some singing nuns. We'll go live to Arundel, to the poor clairs of Arundel who've made an album. And we've got two of the singing sisters on the programme this morning. Looking forward to that. We're also discussing Mumsnet, if you're a regular user. What do you use it for?

How much joy does it give you? How much pleasure do you get from it? How much information do you glean from your use of Mumsnet or your participation in it? And we're talking today to an academic, to Sarah Pedersen, who is the author of a book called The Politicisation of Mumsnet. Has the website changed over the years? And it's done, I know, a lot of good.

It's campaigned on a number of issues, and people really appreciate Mumsnet. So we'll talk about that on the programme today as well. But the American presidential election, Hove's interview, the next debate is this week. It's on Thursday. It's in Nashville. If you look at the polls, well, Joe Biden, the Democrat candidate, is ahead. But then so was Hillary Clinton by just about in American history at the University of Sussex. Melissa, good to see you. And in Birmingham is Michelle Cressfield, who's a lecturer in the same subject, American history at the University of Birmingham. Michelle, first of all, good morning to you. We know because we've often used this statistic on the programme that 53% of white American women voted for Donald Trump. So really simply, Michelle, what do you think he's done for them over the last four years?

I think it depends. It's a fantastic question. So thank you for asking that. I think it depends on what side you're coming to the question from. If you are a woman who leans conservative, then you might point to the rollback of provisions for Planned Parenthood as a benefit. Planned Parenthood provides abortion services, but other reproductive health access for women in the United States. You might look at his kind of rhetoric about the kind of primacy of families, his work on the employment rate has been down during his presidency. And so thinking about the ways in which that benefits women. Another thing has to do with maternity care. So the U.S. is one of the nations that does not provide a paid maternity care. And he did

introduce a bill that was not passed by the House because that money would have come out of women's social security. But if you're coming at it from the left, you see kind of rhetoric that is demeaning to women. You see that same rollback of Planned Parenthood, a potential challenge to Roe v. Wade on the horizon. And so, yeah, it really depends on where you're coming from. Lots of things happening with women. But if it's beneficial or if it's harmful, it really is the horizon. And so, yeah, it really depends on where you're coming from. Lots of things happening with women. But if it's beneficial or if it's harmful, it really is the question.

Well, I mean, it does depend completely, of course, on where you're coming from. But I guess what I really was trying to ask Melissa was those women, those white women, the majority of whom chose to put their faith in Donald Trump. So it's just interesting to know whether they feel they've had their money's worth, frankly. Well, I would add to what Michelle said is that white women really played a pivotal role, as you're saying, in boosting Trump into the presidency. And it was because they supported him at such high levels, in many ways that he won. And I think that kind of the pandemic, the unemployment rate, and all of these different factors, which are in many ways hitting women the hardest in America, when children are home from school, and many children are still not in school in America,

it's oftentimes women who are facing that higher burden of work, juggling a job and children. And I think that this is part of the reason why the polls are saying that white women are increasingly moving away from supporting Trump. I just recently saw a poll that in some of the battleground states, white women are supporting Biden by 23 points over Trump, which is a really astonishing statistic considering he won many of those women. So I think another thing that I'm seeing and hearing from white women is that they voted for Trump, perhaps they're conservative, religious, but they haven't been that impressed with how he's comported himself in office. They think his behavior hasn't been a very good example for their children. And so I think many of them are

kind of fed up with the drama, fed up with having how the virus is handled and with the way that the economy is going in America. Right. Fed up with the drama. I guess that's something. Actually, if we're honest with ourselves, Michelle, some people in Britain are entertained by the drama. Does that is that still working in the United States or the drama? I don't think so at all. I think what you see, you know, is this concern about the place of America as a kind of global power, as a nation that was generally kind of garnered a lot of respect that, you know, his campaign promise of make America great again, it really does matter to many Americans the way in which they are seen globally. And I don't think that many of them enjoy being, you know, the kind of source of ridicule and, you know, humour and entertainment for the world in the way that we have, particularly around COVID, in the way that that's been handled. I mean, it's been a kind of comedy, a tragic comedy, if you will. But there is no doubt, Michelle, that people who might be supporting Joe Biden,

they can't be complacent, can they? Because as I said, right at the start, the polls were saying very similar things about Hillary Clinton at this stage in the game four years ago. That's absolutely right. I think it's probably going to be a nail biter. I think the likelihood that we wake up on 4 November and we know who the president is, is very, very not likely to be the outcome. I think that, you know, those who are committed to Biden, you're seeing a huge swell and people doing,

trying to do their vote, their mail in ballots right now. That's going to be a really huge thing because, you know, it changed in the night of the 2016 election. It really seemed like Hillary had it. And then as the night went on, the kind of projections shifted and shifted and shifted. And so this will be close, I would imagine. I was really interested to discover, Michelle, that you went to Notre Dame, which is a school where Amy Coney Barrett taught. Now, she is the socially conservative Catholic appointee nominee for the Supreme Court. And she, to put it mildly, is a somewhat divisive figure. Yes, that's absolutely right. So she has been a member of organizations that are not only kind of anti-abortion, but really take a very traditional stance towards marriage in the family.

She has signed petitions, particularly against Roe v. Wade, which kind of raises questions about how she would perform as a justice. She's really kind of resistant answering that kind of outright in her nomination hearing, which in a way is not unlike other nominees who've also tried to avoid leaking their personal feelings. But she's quite divisive and raises a lot of anxiety for people who are committed to wrong. Right. Yes, this is the legislation that permits abortion in the United States, of course. And Melissa, the important thing about Amy Coney Barrett is that she could be on the Supreme Court if President Donald Trump does dispute the result of the election. What might that mean? So I think that this could be

really significant. And during the hearings, several senators really pressed her on this and asked if she would be willing to recuse herself from any Supreme Court decision that deals with the election. And she said that she would consult her colleagues, she would look at precedent, but she was not willing to say one way or the other. And I think that it is quite likely that there will be a Supreme Court case that rises out of this election. So you like Michelle, you don't believe that we'll necessarily know the result come the morning of the 4th of November. I think that we may, but I do think that Trump is going to fight for the presidency if things lose. And I think there might be a battle in the Supreme Court. And I think many Americans are also anticipating that. Right. We do know that Donald Trump has had a profound effect on millions of people in America in various ways.

He has politicized huge, huge swathes of the population one way or maybe the other. Do you think, Michelle, that there is likely to be a higher turnout of women in the election? I think so, absolutely. I think that Biden, Hillary is not the same candidate that Biden was for a number of reasons. I think that he and I think that people, particularly on the left, are in a different position where they've seen a Trump presidency. And so now they have something to really be voting against. I think in 2016, as much as people kind of catastrophize what it could be, he was still an unknown factor in terms of his presidency. So I think we're going to see unprecedented numbers of turnout. I think this is going to be one for the books.

Really? And do you think that women of colour will vote like they never have before, Michelle? I think what's true of women of colour, particularly black women, they've always come through. If you think about some of these big, particularly in the midterms, they turned out in numbers. I think that for them, though they've had been on the fence, that this is the thing to push them over. I think it's a matter of will voting be accessible in a way that is, you know, legal, that allows people to kind of exercise their rights in a way that is comfortable for them. But I think that they're really going to turn out. Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. Melissa, do you also believe that to be the case? Absolutely. And I think that one of the major differences, though, is that many people are going to be voting via mail-in ballots.

And I think that there is going to be record numbers of that. I think with COVID, though, Trump is casting some doubt on the legitimacy of mail-in ballots. So it'll be interesting to see if people choose that or not. And just a quick word on Joe Biden, the candidate, and on Kamala Harris, who's running mate. Joe Biden, to many people, is a weaker candidate than Hillary Clinton was. So is he likely to win, not because he's better qualified than Hillary Clinton was, but because he isn't Hillary Clinton? I think that Hillary Clinton had an enormous amount of baggage. And I think that that really did not serve her well in the last election.

And I think that it was also a very different election. I think that voters were really looking for change in the last election. And coming out of a democratic presidency, they were looking for something different. And I think that voters in this election cycle are looking for stability again. I think they're looking for normalcy. And I think Biden represents that. Yeah, I mean, of course, they could have made a difference and could have had a difference by voting for a female president. So which brings us on to Kamala Harris, who, as the vice presidential candidate, running alongside a man who is nearly 80, lest we forget. Michelle Crestfield, I'm not asking you to put a bet on, but do you believe Kamala Harris will be the first female American president? I certainly believe she has a chance.

I think this will be really, if she were to win the vice presidency, a real kind of experience boost for her. Because I think in the kind of Democratic primary, she still seemed kind of unfinished in terms of her development. And so I think this is going to be for a lot of people, the thing that gives her the experience. The Lincoln Project put out, which is a group that's of conservatives who are against Trump, put out a spot yesterday, really touting her as the right hand woman of Biden. So I think the presumption is she will carry a lot of power in this presidency. Thank you both very much. Really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you. Michelle Cressfield, who lectures in American history at the University of Birmingham.

And you also heard from Melissa Milewski, who does the same at the University of Sussex. And no doubt we'll hear more from them come that first week in November and possibly after that. If, as they both suggested, we don't actually know the result on the morning of the 4th. Now, let's let's go into a rather more tranquil territory. Now, the poor clairs of Arundel in Sussex have made an album. It's called The Light for the World. It's traditional plain chant with added beats, I'm told. And we can go to the convent now and talk to Sisters Leo and Alired. Ailred, I do apologise.

Sister Leo, good morning to you. How are you? Good morning, Jane. I'm very well, thank you. Can I ask you just to tell us a little bit about the convent? Who lives there? How many there are of you? Yes. Well, we were founded in 1886. So the convent's been here for some time.

And at the moment, we are 23 sisters, ranging in age from late 40s to the early 90s. Quite a collection of us, really. And we're also from different countries, too. We have sisters from Nigeria, Zimbabwe, France, Sri Lanka, and, of course, Scotland, England and Ireland. Right. English ones. OK, good. Sister Elra, good morning to you.

Good morning, Jane. Can you be honest? Can you all sing, sister? No. I mean, everybody can have a bash, but not everybody can sing in perfect tune. No. I mean, we work at it. Yes. We work at it. Yeah, I imagine you do. How often, Sister Aylred, do you practice?

We have a practice once a week for 45 minutes yeah well forgive me it doesn't sound a tremendous amount of practice well we practiced a lot for the cd a lot more than that oh okay um but normally we go over things just to make sure of things sometimes we learn new stuff but um often it's just to go through what we'll need for the following week and to make sure everybody's okay with it and everybody knows it um often it's just to go through what we'll need for the following week and to make sure everybody's okay with it and everybody knows it i mean it's it's part of our life we don't do it like a choir might do it we just do it as part of our normal living yes forgive me i mean you you would actually um plain chant during a service would you every day

we don't sing much plain chant um we. Normally we sing psalms to English settings and music, modern music, contemporary music. But for the CD, James and Juliet wanted plain chant, which of course we do sing sometimes, but they wanted plain chant with a modern backing to it. I see. Well, I think we need to hear this really and I think this is something that our audience, well, they're as beleaguered as everybody else at the moment. In the outside world, I have to tell you, sisters, it's not much fun at the moment.

We do know that. No, I know you do. Let's just hear a little bit of your album. This is Earthly Kingdoms. The love of my Saviour promised Jesus, Who I have saved, who I have loved, In whom I have believed, And who I have desired. I thought that was absolutely beautiful. That really is transporting.

Sister Leo, how did you decide which tracks to put on the album? Well, originally James and Juliet brought a selection. Yeah, who are James and Juliet? So James and Juliet are the music producers, James Morgan and Juliet brought a selection. Yeah, who are James and Juliet? So James and Juliet are the music producers, James Morgan and Juliet Pochin. And it was their idea, it was James' idea to do this CD. He'd been looking for a community that would work with him on this. So they came with their ideas and we listened

and then suggested some from ourselves as well because we are followers of saint francis and saint claire and for us their writing some of their writings are beautiful and we thought it would be good to put some of the quotations from saint francis and saint claire to music so we shared this with james and juliet and they were delighted so they um they wrote as you'll see on the album i think there's three or four um from Saint Francis and Saint Claire that we think has never been put to music certainly not in English wow before and we're very very happy with with what they produced and gave our all to it um because it just speaks to us um so um after you know we we didn't do this lightly um we had quite a few community

discussions because it's a very community very much community effort i was going to ask about that because this is a very public facing bit of work you've done here was there some resistance within the convent cicilia i wouldn I wouldn't say resistance, more hesitation, because it's something that we, you know, would never have thought to do. And then having something put in front of you saying, well, this could be a possibility. So we explored it and James and Juliet came and Juliet gave us, we had a singing lesson with her to see if we could work together. And we did very well.

And they really supported us in answering questions and making suggestions so that we could come to the decision that the whole community was behind this. Well, Sister Elred, you hinted, well, you didn't hint, you were told the truth, which is what I'd expect of a nun, that not everybody can sing. Are you one of the ones who can sing or do you keep your voice on the down low a little bit?

Well, I'm 77, so my voice is not of the best, but I love to sing and I can sing in tune. Yes, no, I'm sure you can. You know, we all know that everybody's having a challenging time at the moment. Can I just ask, Sister Elred, how much has COVID impacted on your way of life, if at all? Well, it's impacted on us in kind of indirect ways. It hasn't directly impacted on us

very much because we live a structured life within the house, times of prayer, times of work, times of spent together. But it's impacted on us hugely in knowing how it's impacted on the people for whom we live our life. I mean, we don't live this life for ourselves. We live it for everybody, people we don't know, people we do know. We believe that our life of prayer is a help to them. And we've known something of what people have been suffering in this time. We read the news, we get the Global Guardian, we hear the BBC news. So we've got some idea of the

terrible suffering that people all over the world have been experiencing and the grief and the loneliness. So that's impacted on us hugely, but you would say indirectly. Yes. I mean, that's that's very honest of you. But, you know, you're right. It is the loneliness. I think it's the isolation that people are feeling at the moment. And of course, Sister Leo, that is something that you don't have. You're all together in your community. Yes, we are. We're a community of sisters that pray, work and recreate together every day. As Sister Ered said, we have a structure and we follow that structure.

And we really try to be sisters to each other because that was so important for St. Clair and for St. Francis. Yes. Does that mean, sorry, you have a structure that you stick to seven days a week every single day of the year? That's right. We might make an alteration on feast days or if there's big celebrations going on, we have a sort of a free day on a bank holiday or Christmas and Easter.

There's obviously slight changes depending on the time of the year. But each day has its structure. Yes. Do you think that because so many people have been tested over the last six months or so, that you might have an interest in people who think, well, you know what, perhaps the spiritual life is for me. Perhaps this artificial, superficial, commercialised existence is rubbish, basically. I'd be better off with the poor sisters, the poor clairs of Arundel. Are you expecting more people to enquire, Sister Leo?

I don't think so, in sense that um i'm not sure people would automatically think that they would come if if they're struggling with difficulties um we we obviously support people when they have their difficulties but it is a slow um what you call it you know people coming to us it's not. It's not a lot. We have few and far between, really, because of our life. You have to have a call from God from this. I mean, we like to, you know, on normal times, we have a guest house and people come and spend time and join us in chapel for our prayer. And that does seem to feed a lot of people just coming for some space and some silence. And we're sad, really sad that we're not able to do

that at the moment because we know what the people that do come to us share with us what it's meant to um to have this chance to have some space and have some silence so i'm not sure it would mean that we would get more people coming as you know receiving the vocation to come and join us. But certainly I think people are longing for the chance to get back to a place where they can have space and recollect themselves and time to think. Just really briefly, you might have a hit on your hands here because people are just desperate for some sort of consolation and an escape. Where's the money from the album going to go, Sister Leo? What, the money that we receive from the album? We're hoping to support some local charities.

Right. As soon as we were part of our discussion when we were making the decision saying, OK, so we're not doing this for the money, but there will be money coming. So what we want to do with it is to share with others, definitely. Thank you very much. I wouldn't have expected anything less, really, in the circumstances. Thank you both so much. That was lovely. That was Sisters Leo and

Ulrich from the Poor Clares of Arundel. And I know lots of you, judging by Twitter, were enchanted by the music. It's called A Light for the World. And the track we played was Earthly Kingdoms. Now, tomorrow, the programme is going to be presented by the BBC's Europe editor, Katja Adler. She'll be in Brussels and she'll be talking, amongst other things, about Francis Hodgson Burnett, author of The Secret Garden. Of course, that's on the programme tomorrow. Called You and Yours is with Winifred at quarter past 12 or so this morning. She's going to be asking you what, if anything, has helped you through the last year.

And you can call her on 03700 100 444 and the lines open at 11 o'clock this morning. Let's talk about Mumsnet. Mumsnet has 11, sorry, 10 million. I was exaggerating. Shameless. 10 million unique visitors a month, we're told, to Mumsnet's site. Set up 20 years ago by a couple of women who met up at antenatal classes. Now has an annual revenue of about £8.6 million.

It's campaigned. It's been a controversial place in some ways. It's been a safe space in lots of ways for women to get advice and to discuss all manner of subjects. As one user put it, I came for the babies and I stayed for the feminism. Sarah Pedersen is Professor of Communication and Media at Robert Gordon University, Aberdeen and the author of The Politicisation of Mumsnet. Sarah, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. There we are. Time delay because you are, after all, in Aberdeen.

Sorry about that. Yes, sorry. No, that. There we are. Time delay because you are, after all, in Aberdeen. Sorry about that. Yes, sorry. No, that's nobody's fault. Now, tell me, the politicisation of Mumsnet, in the title, that suggests that you're somewhat critical of the idea that it has been politicised. But it's not quite that, is it? Absolutely not. What I'm saying is look at this great space where women can get together and talk about the things that matter to them.

And what I'm interested in in this book is the way in which they talk about politics. And I'm using politics with a small p. talking about individual politicians, political parties, but also feminism, ecology, all sorts of issues that any woman would be interested in. Same sort of subjects that are on Women's Hour. Well, exactly. Why on earth shouldn't Mumsnet be political? Because life is political. Well, absolutely. And I think that certainly, although not everybody who uses Mumsnet is a mother, I think that once one becomes a mother, one realises the need to be political, whether it's the impact of maternity leave on your career or the price of childcare.

So certainly I think that motherhood politicises women. Yeah. Well, let's talk about who uses it. Who does? A whole variety of people. I mean, it's not just mothers. It's women from all stations and places in their lives, not just in Britain. There's even a fair sprinkling of about two to five percent of users are men. Yeah. Oh, that's OK as well, because we have a lot of male listeners to women's hour. And you yourself have used it and in what way? Oh, absolutely. I've been on Mumsnet since I was pregnant with my second son. So we're coming up to 18 years now. I mainly look, but I think I've posted on most areas, including style and beauty. Mumsnet have influenced me a lot in things I buy. Am I being unreasonable? When of course,

I wasn't being unreasonable. And in particular, all the discussions about politics and in the fantastic area of Mumsnet, which is to do with women's rights and feminism, which was established in 2010 and really has taken off and is very influential on the site, I think. Yeah, well, we'll come back to that. I mean, when it was set up, it wasn't... Well, you tell me, what was it intended to do?

Well, I think it was at first intended to be sort of a place for advice about things like where to go on holiday or what pushchair to buy. But the discussion forum, which came as part of this advice website, really took over. And it's now become, I see it almost like the equivalent of all the women's magazines that we no longer buy. It's Spare Rib, and it's Cosmopolitan, and it's a bit of Woman's Own, and it's The Spectator. So you can get all sorts of discussions and debates on Mumsnet, whatever you're interested in. And the great thing is that unlike magazines, there's no gatekeeping, you can actually get involved in it. And I think it's also important that you can get involved in it using a pen name. So you've got that

protective shield of anonymity, which means that you can talk about politics or whatever it is without upsetting your family and friends or even giving away who you are. Right. So what has been said on Mumsnet, for example, about the Gender Recognition Act that I was going to say that couldn't be said on Women's Hour. We can certainly discuss it, but this is a BBC programme and therefore we are not in a position to campaign for one side of any argument or the other. It's as simple as that. But they can on Mumsnet. They can and they very definitely do. And I think what it is with Mumsnet is that you have a group of women, particularly on the women of the reform of the Gender Recognition Act. And they've turned to places that they would normally feel at home, whether that's left and centre political parties, the Women's Equality Party, the Fawcett Society, the Guardian, the BBC,

all of these places that they've always felt supported by before. And when they've turned to them to discuss their concerns about the impact on women's and girls' rights, they have found themselves either ignored or actually sort of pushed away and called names. And so what you have is women have gathered on Mumsnet because it's basically been a safe space to discuss this. They've been thrown off other parts of social media like Twitter or Reddit. And so they've gone to Mumsnet and they've regrouped and they haven't just discussed, but they've also become part of what I describe in the book as the resurgent women's rights movement. So, you know, they have a symbiotic relationship with groups like Women's Place UK and Philia and Fair Play

for Women. So what you have there... Which are groups that some others, I just need to be very clear we make this, groups that some people have described in some circumstances as transphobic. Yeah, I mean, I think that the women, what I like about Mumsnet is that women like to research, and whatever the discussion is, whether it's Gender Recognition Act or whether it's Trump's politics, they will go off and they will bring back documents from the most unbelievable places. They'll have dug out documents and tweets and information and statements from Angela Merkel and all sorts of things. And they will discuss and debate this evidence. They don't like to be told no debate. And they don't like to be told, you know, they like to research subjects and present information to each other.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Some people have criticised Mumsnet, as indeed they've criticised Woman's Hour, for being too middle class. What do you say about that? Well, I think that they really need to go on Mumsnet and see the kinds of conversations that are happening. I mean, there's all sorts of, today, for example, you've got everything from a call for support of the Fawcett Society and Stella Creasy's bill on equal pay, which is being presented today, to someone asking for advice and support because they're suffering mental abuse in their marriage and for someone else complaining that their cat has been stolen. So it's sort of everything is there. You can find

something that's going to interest you, whatever your interests are. Yes. You sound, I mean, I could be wrong, you sound defensive of it as though other people you think unfairly criticise it. Is that your standpoint? Yeah, I think Mumsnet is unfairly criticised. I think that it provides support and advice and entertainment for an enormous amount of women every day. You know, and I think there's a lot of misconceptions about Mumsnet. Just as, to be fair, there are misconceptions about Women's Hour. You know, there's a lot of use of the word jam making and things. Yes. Do you know what?

I can honestly, I'm leaving the programme at the end of the year. I think we might do jam making on the last edition, just so I can say I have done it. Yeah, my producer's not looking all that optimistic, but no, I mean, to heck with it. That's what we're going to do. But you're right. There are misconceptions.

And of course, because it's about women, for women, it's got the word mom in it. It as we've got the word woman in it. That's why it attracts criticism. I was looking at it myself, and I would say there was some very consoling advice for women in some pretty difficult situations. And what of the domestic violence threads, which can be very, very concerning. But what's the great thing about Mumsnet is that the people who write on it asking for advice are given really good advice. It's not just sympathy. It's not just, oh, dear, I feel sorry for you. It's right. Get your financial details together. Ring this number. Go and do this. How can we help you? I mean, and I think that is the essentialness of Mumsnet. You get advice, but it can be quite sort of brusque, and it can be some difficult advice, but they will always call a spade a spade. Interesting. Thank you very much. I really appreciate you coming on. That's Sarah Pedersen, Professor of Communication and Media at Robert Gordon University Aberdeen. Her book is The Politicisation of Mumsnet. An email from Claire who says, I love the discussion threads on Mumsnet. It's been a lifeline for me. It helps keep me connected and discussing politics is another strength of Mumsnet. Long may it

continue. Any other thoughts on that at At BBC Women's Hour on social media. Have you ever done a job share? It remains actually one of the least popular or least used types of flexible working. Why is that? Claire McCartney is Senior Policy Advisor at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, CIPD. Ginny Bootman has job shared for 15 years now as a teacher and as a head teacher. So we'll talk to her in a second. Claire, can you just give me a strict definition of a job share? Yes, certainly. So job sharing is an employment arrangement where

typically two people are retained on a part time basis to perform a job which is normally fulfilled by one person working full time. Yeah. And it can be possible, presumably not in every line of work. No, not in every line. And, you know, we see examples in the public sector, you know, in office-based sectors, we're seeing more examples in those. But actually, you know, there are many more kind of opportunities and potentials around job share in general. Why don't employers offer it? I think generally there is still a lack of understanding about what a job share is and how it can be beneficial to individuals and organisations. You know, what we're seeing as a result of the pandemic is that more employers are expecting people to work from home in the future.

But actually, we're not necessarily seeing that kind of opportunity in terms of other flexible working options like job sharing. So we're really keen that organisations really open up their flexible working options to create positive change for employees and businesses alike. Do you see any way the pandemic has made job shares more or less likely? You know, I think what we've seen through the pandemic is this, you know, before employers, some employers were reluctant to allow homeworking. And what the pandemic has shown is that actually homeworking can be done. And productivity levels, according to our data on the whole have remained, you know, steady. So actually, often if employers pilot different ways of working, then they actually can find that

they work. So hopefully that will create more open mindedness on behalf of employers. OK, well, that's interesting. Ginny, you did this quite some time ago now. Did you feel that you were you were pioneering when you did your first job share? No, I didn't. The the opportunity arose and I'd seen it previously in a previous school that I'd worked in. So it didn't feel pioneering at all to me. I was surprised that you could do it as a teacher. So explain to me how it worked practically. Is that from the point of view of being a head teacher and a teacher?

Let's start with teacher first. How do teachers job share effectively? OK, yeah. So in my experience, we taught half the week each and then we had a handover on a Wednesday and then we discussed the academic and pastoral issues that had occurred either end of the week so that everything moved across from one teacher to the other seamlessly.

Right. We planned separately for our English and maths lessons because it's important to have ownership as well when you're teaching. And then the other subjects such as science, IT, PE, we split those according to our interest and also the expertise we had because that was really good because we had differing expertise which really worked really well. Yeah I can see that completely. Do you think the children noticed or cared or benefited or suffered? Because my job share and I worked seamlessly and because the communication happened all the time, whether it was with regard to talking to parents or children, they really liked it because they could see both teachers knew everything about their children

because of the strong communication that was occurring. Right okay um can I just ask in brutal financial terms Ginny did you simply earn less well half the salary that you would you would normally quotes have earned? Yeah yeah yeah okay that's's exactly it yeah so but not everybody of course can afford to earn half a teacher's or a head teacher's salary no I took a conscious decision we took a conscious decision as as a family um and talked it through and looked at it from the point of view of work-life balance um you know, the fact that we had a young family and we made that conscious decision. And I think it's up to the individual and it really, really worked for us. But I completely agree that individuals have to decide if that route

financially is the right route for them. Yeah, I just wonder, Claire, from an employer's point of view, is there a financial burden having a job share on your books? No, there isn't really. I mean, because you've got two kind of separate contracts of employment and job sharers share the pay and benefits of the whole post on a pro rata basis. And in fact, I'd say, you know, there are many advantages because actually, as we've just heard from Ginny, you're going to benefit from two sets of skills, knowledge and experience, two sets of contact books as well, if that's relevant to your industry. And I think what job shares can do is attract highly qualified employees to work for your organisation that want to work on a part time basis. I mean, teaching is a very particular profession, isn't it? It's clearly not the same as working in business. Ginny, do you have to like and rate the person you're job sharing with? Absolutely, absolutely. For a job share to work really, really well, you've got to have

shared values and you've got to have trust. I really feel that builds up over time and you've also got to be mindful that you don't inadvertently micromanage your job share yes you've also got to be honest when you have a bad day when they have a bad day sit down with a cup of tea talk it through so there is that transparency and you have to listen to your job share and communicate. As I said in my Times Ed article, it is really like a marriage. Yeah, of course, you're not actually together more than half a day a week, are you? No, no. And that is the really interesting bit about a job share is you are apart more than you are together. But you're sort of there's a codependency at the same time.

It's a weird one, isn't it? It is. And it is about respecting one another, communicating. And it might be face to face, emails, phone calls so you really have to have that close, close relationship to know when to get in touch with your job share and when not to and that is really key as well Claire McCartney and

Ginny Bootman talking about job share Alyssa actually said Jane you've job shared for years I suppose that's a good point. Should have made that, well, you could loosely call it a gag, I suppose, by the standards of Radio 4. Should have made that gag myself.

I would say, of course, that even when I'm not here, I'm giving my every waking hour to thoughts of the hour. But yes, you've probably got a point. Joan says, I employed two secretaries on a job share. The company didn't like it because they had to count two heads, not one.

One of the measures, the profit per head, is then reduced and not liked by accountants and those that measure efficiency. Julie says, I'm deputy head of a department at an FE college working on a 50-50 job share. I get on very well with my other half and we're very different in age, background, experience, etc. In fact, he is the second person in post after my first partner left in February. The main problem is that we, like many part-time workers, end up working far more than our part-time contract pays us, I bet. I reckon I work four days a week on average, says Julie. Yes, I can believe that.

I should have mentioned that actually. Veena says, job shares are in my experience a fantastic option for women. I've shared jobs as a teacher and an English advisor. Both have been a positive experience and allowed me professional joy and balance with my personal happiness as a mum to three young children. I'm looking to return to a suitable school leadership position after having a baby at the peak of the pandemic back in April and I'm waiting for the right job share to come up. It really can work so well. Veena, hope you and the baby are doing well.

What a year you've had. That must have been quite an experience. Laura says, I spent several happy years in a job share. I'm a huge fan of the job share idea and I wish more employers would adopt this as a way to improve flexible working and help more mothers back into the workforce. Kate says, my son is 10. He's to date had three years of teacher's job sharing and it's been a disaster. I don't think it worked for the children at all. Helen did a job share for nine

years teaching food technology. The secret is good communication. A great advantage of TGE arrangement was that in case of absence, the other partner could step in, avoiding the need for supply or cover teachers so that practical cookery classes could continue. Helen, thank you for that. Sally, my daughter just had a job share teacher for the first time. The teacher at the beginning of the week she really likes. The other teacher she doesn't, mainly due to her shouting. This means by Wednesday her mood in the morning changes and she keeps saying, I wish I had that nice teacher all the time.

From Sarah, my job share, Andrew and I never see each other as we're never at work together. So we always try to sit together on our work nights out. I did lose concentration there slightly because I could see some more caffeine hoving into view. So thank you very much. That's great. Thank you. This is the time I'm allowed another flat white. My performance will start to improve when I've had a slurp.

Hang on a sec. I can't just find it. The older I get, the more remarkable I find it that some people don't drink coffee or tea. Singing nuns. I visited them in Arundel in the late 60s, says Claire. I still remember the calm space, the walled fruit and vegetable garden and the delicious soup on the timber scrubbed tables. I always thought I had an affinity with them having the same name.

God bless them for their lovely sounds, says Claire, who's age 54 and appreciated that item. Another Claire says beautiful inspired music, but inane questioning from the interviewer. This is a spiritual vocation, not a job. On the positive side, what a good example of selfless understanding from Sister Leo. Yeah.

I mean, never mind. I should say it is my job to elicit responses. And actually, to be fair though, Claire wasn't the only person who thought I was patronising to the nuns. So we'll read another one from Andrew. What a strange thing to say about people in these times joining the sisters at Arundel. Were you trying to politicise them? One joins the sisters when God calls, not when one feels fed up. Get real, Woman's Hour. You're so middle class. Oh, blimey, Andrew's thrown everything at me there. Well, first of all, we are middle class. Yes, as I frequently acknowledge. And indeed, that also

came up during the conversation about Mumsnet. I think you'll find, Andrew, a lot of people in Britain are middle class. Certainly a lot of people who listen to Radio 4. Yvonne says, could Jane have been any more sneering when interviewing the nuns? Can she sing? Yes, actually, Yvonne, I can. And before I leave at the end of December, I will be singing on Woman's Hour with the Mast Choir of the Hour. Well, I say Mast, there's only three of us ever allowed in. But a lot of people did love the music and actually so did I. And I also love talking to Sisters Leo and Elred and you wish them the very, very best of luck. Uplifting item on the Singing Nuns says, Linda, could you let me know where I could get hold of their CD?

Yes, I can tell you exactly where you can get hold of it. It's a Decca album CD and it's called Light for the World. It was lovely. I think we're all, it doesn't matter whether you're religious or not, it's just a beautiful, beautiful sound. Now on to the interview about Mumsnet. This from Karina. Starting with that one. This from Edie. Mumsnet is great. It supports a degree of free speech and offers a safe space to women in abusive situations, Another listener says, ill-homophobic and sometimes ableist commentary. I don't feel it is a safe space. Another listener, Julie, an interesting discussion.

And I wholly agree with your view that it's unfairly criticised. I think it's full of intelligent discussion and a lot of kindness. Anna says, I've been there since the beginning of Mumsnet. I think it used to be a supportive place, but I don't think it is anymore. Women are turning on each other. Leave your husband after one argument. Never put your baby down. You're an alcoholic if you have a wine in the evening, etc. Right. Well, that's Anna's view. I have to say, I'm not a regular user of Mumsnet. I obviously looked at it in preparation for today's programme. And I thought it struck me as being,

certainly for somebody with a young baby who needed just to talk and get some advice, it felt, it looked to me like a supportive place in those sorts of situations. But obviously it's a place where people feel free to disagree and what is wrong with that? And I just wanted to mention this, which comes from a listener who I do believe is speaking for many. Well, I mean, she's I'm honest. She's speaking for me because I've had these thoughts.

She says, the more I think about Christmas, the more anxious I feel. I wonder if you could do a programme about what on earth we're going to do about Christmas. I'm a woman. I'm a mom. The burden of planning does fall mainly on me. No getting away from that, of course. I've got parents to support, I've got in-laws and I've got young children. It's always been my season, Christmas, says this listener. With high expectations, I like to make a wreath. I do a Christmas dinner for 12 people. And every year I host a big party for up to 50 people.

But this year I just find I just want to forget about the whole thing. I don't even want to think about putting up a tree. I would love ideas of support, either practically or mindfully, about what we do about the anxiety of preparing for this Christmas. Well, to that listener, I'm sorry you're feeling really low about it. Look, I think we're all feeling that I'm just trying to park it, if I'm honest with you, but you've brought it to the forefront of my mind by emailing the programme. So I think I can guarantee that we will

do exactly that programme because I do think there's a... I don't think we can do it short in the near future because we don't know what our Christmas is going to be like. I think I'd prefer to leave that until we have a little more of an idea of how it's going to be, but we will certainly do it.

I promise. Thank you all. Katja Adler, who's the BBC's Europe editor, is going to be presenting Women's Hour tomorrow from Brussels. So that's tomorrow, podcast and the live radio program as well, of course. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.