Woman's Hour - Sisters: A Woman’s Hour special

Episode Date: August 26, 2024

Whether you have a sister or not, it’s a relationship that has long fascinated us. In this special edition of Woman’s Hour, Nuala McGovern explores what makes the female sibling dynamic so compelling.If you were watching the Paris Olympics, you might have spotted identical twins Lina and Laviai Nielsen taking to the track. The Olympic duo join Nuala to discuss competing together at an elite level in athletics, winning bronze side-by-side for Team GB, and navigating triumphs and challenges in the public eye after Lina’s Multiple Sclerosis diagnosis.Psychotherapist Jennifer Gledhill joins Nuala to talk about the psychology of sister relationships. What pushes you apart, and what brings you together? She also gives her tips on how to have a better relationship with your sister.How do you deal with the grief of losing a sister? British-Kurdish activist Payzee Mahmod’s joins Nuala to talk about her beloved sister Banaz, who was murdered aged 20 in a so-called 'honour' killing. Their father and uncle are serving life sentences for the murder. Nuala and Payzee talk about loss, legacy and how Banaz’s death drove Payzee’s campaign against child marriage.What is Nuala like as a sister? Joining us from Ireland to spill the beans are Nuala’s own two sisters – Vera and Eileen!Film historian Alex Von Tunzelmann charts one of the most famous sisterly feuds in Hollywood history – the explosive rivalry between the Oscar-winning British actresses, Olivia de Havilland and Joan Fontaine.And what if you don’t have biological sisters or didn’t grow up with them, but want the support system that can come with a sisterhood? Angel, from London, is now 21 years old and was in the care system from the age of five. She’s a mentor and ‘big sister’ for Sister System, a charity that works with care-experienced women and girls. Angel and the charity’s founder Okela Douglas join Nuala to discuss why sisterhood can have such a profound impact.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producers: Maryam Maruf and Erin Downes Editor: Olivia Bolton Studio Manager: Gayl GordonArchive: Fleabag / Two Brothers Pictures / Harry Bradbeer; Pride and Prejudice / Working Title Films / Joe Wright; Little Women / Columbia Pictures / Greta GerwigThe book reading is from Joan Fontaine’s memoir, No Bed of Roses published by William Morrow and Company

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour and a special programme all about sisters. Now, whether you have one or not, it is a relationship that has long fascinated us. And today we're going to unpick what makes the female sibling dynamic so compelling.

Now, to get us going, here are some sisters, fictional and real, you might recognise, starting with the TV series Fleabag. Tell the truth. It's horrendous. It's horrendous. It's modern. Don't lie. I'm not. I look like a pencil. You don't look like... Don't laugh. It's okay. It's not okay. I'm going to lose my job. Don't lose your job. It's cool. It's not cool. It's cheap. It's unsalvageable. Claire, it's French. Really?

Yes. A Mrs. Bennet, a Miss Bennet, a Miss Bennet and a Miss Bennet, sir. Oh, for heaven's sake, are we to receive every Bennet in the country? Do you really believe he liked me, Lizzie? Jane, he danced with you most of the night and stared at you for the rest of it. But I give you leave to like him. You, like many, are stupid a person. Amy, I'm so happy for you. Oh, I'm so relieved. Thank you.

I wanted to write Joe. I wanted to explain everything. But everything was happening so fast, and really, I was worried you'd be angry at me. No, no. Life is too short to be angry at one's sisters. My sister is by my side, and we are both going to say goodnight to you. Come on, Margaret. Goodnight, children. Goodnight, and good luck to you all. Well, that was then-Prin then Princess Elizabeth a decade before she became Queen with her sister Princess Margaret speaking on the BBC you also heard clips from Little Women

Pride and Prejudice and yes Fleabag but you know culture and history is dotted with famous sisters. The Gorgons of Greek mythology, Bollywood singing sisters Lata and Asha what about Beyonce and Solange? Even in fairy tales, where would Cinderella be without her ugly sisters?

And right now, the British government has two sets of sisters in senior ministerial positions. Rachel and Ellie Reeves as Chancellor of the Exchequer and Minister without Portfolio. And Angela and Maria Eagle in the Home Office and Department of Defence. And that got us thinking, what's it like being high profile sisters and navigating a relationship in the public eye? Well, I'm thrilled to say that joining us to give their first-hand experiences as newly decorated Olympic medalists and identical twin sisters, Lavia and Lena Nielsen will be here. They're with me in studio along with the psychotherapist

Jennifer Gledhill who'll talk about the psychology of sister relationships. Having sisters can be enriching, infuriating and transformative.

And we're wondering what drives you apart? What brings you back together? And how can you be a better sister? Well, today's programme has been pre-recorded so I can't include

any of your messages that come in today. But a special thank you to the listeners who have already been in touch. We'll be hearing your comments throughout this episode. We also have the activist, Paisie Mahmood, who will talk about grief and how the loss of a sister shaped her life. You'll hear from my own two sisters, Vera and Eileen, something I'm excited about, but also maybe a tad apprehensive

about what our conversation might actually reveal. We'll have the film historian, Alex von Tunzelman, here to chart what's probably the most explosive sisterly feud in Hollywood history. That is the rivalry

between Olivia de Havilland and Joan Fontaine. And if you don't have sisters, what does sisterhood mean to you? To answer that, I have Akella Douglas from the charity Sister System and a big sister mentor called Angel. Well, let us begin with two stars of the sporting world.

Earlier this year, if you were watching the UK Athletics Indoor Championships in Glasgow, you might have thought you were seeing double during the women's 400 metre race and then again on the podium for the medal ceremony winning gold and silver were Lavia and Lina Nielsen. Now they are identical twins both competing at an elite level in athletics.

Most recently at the Paris Olympics where they both took to the track for Team GB in the women's 4x400m relay, Lina in the heats and Lavia for the final, both landing a bronze medal each, again sharing a podium. Along with their triumphs,

there have been challenges for their relationship. Lina has multiple cirrhosis, diagnosed as a teenager and essentially had to learn how to walk again. But Lavia has been by her side for every step. Welcome to you both and congratulations on your Olympic medals.

Thank you. Thanks so much for having us. My goodness, when I took a look, what a year you have both had. Wondering, first off, what was it like being on the podium together? And maybe I'll start with you, Lavia. It was just incredible. I think, you I think we started the sport together and I think we've always known that we could be on a podium together and there's been moments where one of us has made it and the other hasn't and that's been

really tough and so being there together just felt like a combination of all those highs and lows and finally we were able to put an Olympic medal around our necks together. It's amazing. In Glasgow you were rivals, as I mentioned, at those championships. But Paris then on the same team. What was it like, Lena, for you?

It was incredible. I missed out on Tokyo and watched my sister go to Tokyo Olympics in 2021. And that was the hard moment that you spoke about. So it was hard for Larbi to enjoy it without, you know, feeling that kind of guilt complex of leaving one behind. So to make Paris together was just such an amazing moment. It was something we dreamed of since we volunteered at 2012 together, 12 years ago. So to make that podium was just a cherry on top. I found that very moving that you worked at 2012 in London. What were you doing? Carrying Desiget and his Hills bag? Did I read that correctly?

Yeah, we were kit carriers. So we would be there on the start line to carry their kit to the finish line, which is a difficult job. They don't exist anymore, these kit carriers. So we were very, very lucky that we got to experience that. We were the only people other than the athletes and the officials and the media that were allowed on the field of play. So we were so lucky to experience the crowd back then in 2012. And so to experience it again in Paris,

we just wanted to emulate what happened in 2012. And if people are wondering, that is Lina that has just been speaking. We sounded the same. You do do sound similar but I'm wondering do you ever get for me I think now I've been with you a few minutes I could tell you apart I think yeah but do you get mistaken for each other I'm particularly wondering in the world of sport love you all the time all the time one of us will okay I don't run hurdles this is love you speaking I have to introduce myself every time i talk but i don't run the hurdles and someone will literally tag a photo of lena going over hurdles with my name and i'm like do your research i don't run the hurdles but all the time and now it's just gotten to the point where one of us will be congratulated

for something we didn't do we just say thank you yeah i'm love yeah thank you you've got used to it but you know there was a word there that lena i think you said like the joy that came off and being on the podium together was that you didn't have the guilt is there quite a lot of guilt if one succeeds and the other doesn't love you yeah i think it's maybe i'll actually talk to the psychotherapist about this jennifer it's it kind of feels a bit like survivor's guilt especially because lena's had such a tough time with illness as well and so you're kind of standing on bit like survivor's guilt, especially because Lena's had such a tough time with illness as well. And so you're kind of standing on the podium. And, you know, because we're identical twins, we grew up together.

So the nature versus nurture argument doesn't quite work with us because we grew up the same. And so I think there's a kind of, yeah, like a survivor's guilt complex thing going on, because I'm just thinking if we had the same sort of upbringing in the same environment, then we should both be here. But of course, Lena's had a difficult time as well. And the psychotherapist you're talking about is Jennifer Gledhill, who is sitting right beside you here in the Woman's Hour studio. She is deputy editor of The Psychologist magazine, but here in your personal capacity as a psychotherapist

and you have a lot of experience working with family relationships, sister dynamics. What about that comment that Lavia made? Absolutely. I think, Lavia, I'm just, I'm hearing your story and I'm just overwhelmed by how you've obviously got this amazing sister relationship that you've been able to navigate these, I want to say hurdles, that's a bit cheesy, but you know, navigate these hurdles in your relationship because we're driven to be competitive. It's natural to be competitive. It's a survivor mechanism to be able to fight for

limited resources. So that's number one. We're allowed to be competitive. But actually, sometimes, especially with women, this has been squeezed out of us. It's not OK. We see brothers as being competitive and that's wonderful. But for sisters, I think it's amazing. we see brothers as being competitive and that's wonderful but for sisters I think it's amazing so let us go back to the early years when little Lavia and Lena were running around the house like I think these girls have something did you develop a love of running at the same time Lena we were so lucky growing up we grew up in one of the Olympic boroughs we are literally a product of the London 2012 Olympics and if that's not a legacy then what is what is and so we were kind of pushed into sport by our PE teachers and we did know from a young age that we were talented we didn't know what talent meant obviously as eight nine

year olds but we knew that we had something and we'd race the boys and the teachers would tell us but it was only until the 2012 Olympics did we really start to push ourselves so we're actually late bloomers yeah what what's a late bloomer then? We started training properly around 17, 18, which a lot of athletes on the team would have started at 9, 10, 11. We didn't know that we had to train. We would just go and win these races with no training. And was it competitive between you from the get-go?

I think we were. I think we were competitive. We just didn't really know what that meant. I think and we speak about it now we speak about healthy competitiveness, because we are identical twins. And we do have very similar strengths and weaknesses. When we're training, it's kind of like, I should be up there with the other if she's far ahead, she shouldn't be that far ahead. You know, we've both got the same tools. And so I think that's the advantage we have being competitive is that we use each other. And not many people can get to say that they train with someone who's very similar to them you got your own control group yeah our coach calls us co-pilots

actually it's really nice yeah flying the plane together so it's um that's been the advantage and I think even now we're not super competitive we're not competitive outside of the track but on the track we know that it's useful you leave it on the track yeah and but you know you mentioned 17 lena when you started training seriously but that was also when you were diagnosed with ms although i understand you started experiencing symptoms earlier than that how does ms affect you so we have both of us have a form of ms called relaxing remitting ms MS so RRMS and it doesn't affect us day to day we have symptoms sometimes it lasts maybe a couple days a few weeks and then we're really fortunate to have made full recoveries from all those relapses so I've had my first

symptom at 13 which was paralysis on the left arm and then the next relapse was double vision and then the one after that was what led to my diagnosis which was paralysis down the whole right side of my body and that's what made me have to learn to walk again because there was just no movement on the right side of the body and I had to drag my right leg to yeah to basically be able to walk and then learn to jog again and run again and sprint again and at that point Larvi had made her first global championships which was the world junior championships and I was so her. I remember crying when she got the call, but then I was like, oh, that could have been me. But here I am learning to jog again.

And to be fair, like I always say, I would never be in the sport if it wasn't for my sister. Like, obviously we are carbon copies of each other. And seeing what she achieved, I was like, right, if I just get healthy and recover and, you know, learn to sprint again, then I could do the same thing. And then lo and behold, a year later, we both made the European Junior Championships in Sweden

and we both came away with a gold medal in the 4x4 as juniors, which was just an incredible journey. But I wouldn't have done it if I didn't see my sister do it. And that's just the beauty of sisterhood, knowing that you could have that too. Which is a very interesting perspective to have when you're learning to walk and your sister is winning at these championships, but there you go.

And now you're olympian um yes olympic medalist let's get it right um but you didn't disclose your diagnosis is my understanding to lavia when when you found out i don't know how you keep that a secret as well it wasn't so much keeping it a secret it It was, I think, again, talking about that guilt complex. I remember when I got diagnosed, there were a lot of things thrown around the room. But one of the things that the consultant had said was, if you have a sister or brother, then they will most likely develop MS as well. And I was like, well, I've got an identical twin sister.

And then they were like, yeah. So I think the stat that was thrown around was like a 95% chance. And I was like, oh, God, this is my fault like I had this since I was 13 and I don't know obviously I was really young and I didn't know I kind of thought if I didn't experience this then my sister would have to experience this and I basically couldn't tell her so it was really hard and I think that was one of the hardest things to deal with with the diagnosis was knowing that I'd have to tell her that I have it and you might have it too. And when did you tell her? I think it was about two or three months later.

And I kind of just threw it in on a warm-up jog on the track. I was like, oh yeah, by the way, I have MS. And then she was like, why didn't you tell me? I remember she said, why didn't you tell me? You should have told me sooner. And then, yeah, and then after that, it was just open conversation. But you decided then to go public with Adelina. That's a few years ago. Yeah, 2022.

So just after the World Championships. Why did you? It just felt so right. I made my first senior global championships, which was the World Championships in Eugene in 2022. And unfortunately, really bad timing suffered my first relapse in five years, two days before I was due to race. And it was just awful, just heartbreaking. It just felt right that that I showcased kind of what happens behind closed doors all athletes deal with something and that was my

something to deal with and honestly it's one of the best things I've ever done is come in public with with my condition and it's empowered me and almost helped me accept it further the diagnosis which I didn't realize I didn't accept fully. And then to your part of this story, Lavia, you find out you were also pre-diagnosed for MS? Yeah, because I didn't really have any sort of major symptoms. I didn't have much damage in the brain and on the spinal cord and I didn't have much. It was very, very minor. So they kind of pre-diagnosed to say if you get symptoms in the future, it's most likely going to be this. What is it like then having to deal with that in a sister sense? Does it help to know you have somebody that literally knows what you're going through?

Yeah, because I got diagnosed with the consultant two days before I flew out to Tokyo. And I remember being in Tokyo thinking, you know, maybe we shouldn't be doing this. Because I remember Lena said to her consultant, I do athletics, I'm supposed to be making the national championships in a few weeks. And the doctor said, you might want to reconsider that. And so when I went to Tokyo, I remember the consultant saying to me, be careful of stress, be careful of COVID, be careful of all these triggers. And I just thought, maybe we shouldn't be doing this. Maybe it's a bit too hard.

But then I remember seeing Lena not being able to walk and then seeing her fly over hurdles and being one of the quickest in the UK. And I just thought, actually, no, maybe we should be doing this. Maybe because we have this passion, we have this fire, we have this drive that every time we experience a symptom, there's always that drive to come back and to be back at our best. And so I think maybe athletics has given us that drive and it's given us a purpose. I think you just, to me, come across as just incredibly resilient and able to pick yourselves up and go again. I'm just thinking, Lena, she mentions hurdles, the Paris Olympics

during the women's 400 metre hurdle, semi-final, your foot caught on that final hurdle and you fell. Tell us about that moment, also where you go from there. A lot of people see that as, oh, you fell over. But what you don't see is my legs absolutely burning from lactic acid. I pushed myself to my absolute limit, could not lift my leg over that last hurdle and I fell and a lot of people are like I'm so heartbreaking for you I'm so gutted for you I was like I'm not I run at the Olympic Games like you came home with a medal I'm really really not upset it just happens that I really pushed myself and I'm glad that I did that because our coaches have always said they there needs to be one race where you push yourself to the absolute limit and then you know what it's like and that

was my that was my race at the Olympics and I always knew I had the relay and I knew we had a shot as Team GB to come away with the medal so I could not be upset for too long I had to refocus and shift all my energy into the relay and the Olympics was my first major championships ever that I've ever raced in and you know having my sister there who's had so much experience over the years um world championships European championships Olympics as well in Tokyo I could just kind of turn to him be like what do I do if this happens what do I do in the call room what do I do kind of when the baton comes around to me and things like that I'd always ask she's like my big sister even though we're a minute apart because she's had so much you are the older one love you but because she's had so much more experience the older one love you one whole minute but because

she's had so much more experience in track and field I can always turn to her and ask her for advice and it was really nice because love you you are in the public eye and I think that must be something that also has to be navigated in a certain way possibly also because you are sisters and identical twins there's just more interest. I think so as well. I think it's quite difficult to accept that we're in the public eye and that we kind of role models for people. I think we've started our YouTube channel. So we started our Road to Paris series, actually, which was really special for some of our fans to follow along on the journey to Paris. And I think actually then they saw the sisterhood.

They saw us training together. They saw some really tough training sessions and some tough moments and also loads of the highs, the podiums. So your online, Lina, is a kind of sisterhood that's there for other women who have MS as well? Yeah, and there's even a sisterhood within the MS community. And that's another good thing that kind of came out of me sharing my story. I didn't realize how big the community is within MS and interesting fact most people who get diagnosed with MS are women 70% I think is the stat and I'm really really proud to be an ambassador of an amazing charity called MS Together and they have a variety of communities on WhatsApp and one of them is a women's only chat sometimes I read the conversations and I just you

know see what's going on and you know just to share tips and stuff on there is just amazing. And I see that as a sisterhood in itself. But then also kind of both of us being sisters dealing with MS and being able to have that platform to really share our stories, but also to help share other women's stories who also deal with MS is just something that I'm really proud of. Lena and Lavia Nielsen, thank you both so much for coming into Women's Hour, starting our conversation on sisters and the sisterhood. I want to turn back to Jennifer Gledhill. Really interesting to hear their story, right?

That kind of life that's entwined as twins and sisters. But a recent paper that was published in the American Psychological Association suggests that relationships between sisters can be more rewarding and more positive than any other bond between siblings. Why? I think what it is, is if we think about women's relationships, they're so rich, aren't they? We connect from Stone Age, we've connected around the campfire, we tell stories, when we feel safe, we're vulnerable together. So put that with somebody who's known you probably all your life.

This is the biggest relationship you possibly will ever have. Your parents will possibly die before you. You won't have met a partner yet, maybe, or had children. So the sister bond is incredible anyway. And then women's ability to bond, I think it's so rich. I've heard that your sister is also a psychotherapist. Absolutely she is and we share stories together. You swap notes. I don't know if any any listeners remember Frasier. Oh my god I loved that program. Absolutely. I loved that program not just because it was set in a radio station but I still put it on sometimes when it's

you know having reruns and have a good old chuckle. Me too. And we used to joke about being the Frasier and Niles. I was Frasier and my sister, who's more fussy and would get a napkin out and dust the chair, would be Niles. Which are the two brothers in this particular series. Absolutely. I've read that, broadly speaking, you can shoot me down at any time, Jennifer, that there are five types of sibling relationships. The best friends, the rivals, the caretaker and the protected. That's just one category. The estranged. And lastly, the indifferent.

What do you think about that when it comes to sisters? I think I am all those things with my sister in a day. You know, I think I go from being the caretaker and the best friend to indifferent if she starts wittering on about something I'm not interested in. And that's the beauty of our relationship, isn't it? We can be all this and still love each other. Lena, what do you think yours is? How would you describe it? I would call best friends.

Okay, love you. I'd say best friends. Okay, love you. I'd say best friends. Our friends joke that we've had a 28-year ongoing conversation because we never run out of things to talk about. Even the team staff on Team Juvie were like, what do you have left to talk about? What could you possibly talk about? We heard a clip from Fleabag, the TV series,

which has two sisters on it, talking about a drastic haircut. Can we rely on our sisters to tell us the brutal truth about ourselves? I don't know. Is it easier coming from a sister? I would say nine times out of 10, they will tell the brutal truth. And brutal might be the underlying word there, might it? You know, when Fleabag was saying,

it looked like a pencil. That was a haircut. Yes, haircut looked like a pencil. It's brilliant. Yeah, absolutely. Haircut looked like a pencil. It's brilliant. Yeah, absolutely. My sister won't hold back. And you girls might know as well, it can be a look.

It doesn't even have to be words. And we know. Going on to that, being brutally honest, this morning I put a top on and my sister went, do you want an iso top? I'm like, yeah, okay. She went for a plain white tee. I'm wearing my sister's shirt right now.

A caretaker. You both look great, I can say that. Jennifer, there might be some people listening that feel they have a tricky relationship or they're going through a tricky spot with their sisters. What is the dynamic that gets in the way sometimes? Yeah, and I think we all do this. You know, I certainly do it with my older sister. I might see her as being bossy and I might turn into what we call an adaptive child. So I bend to what she might suggest and

she is being a kind of critical parent. I hope she's not not listening but yeah um so a really sort of simple example would be she likes going to ikea when she comes to visit and she'll say something like jen should we go to ikea this afternoon i don't want to go but she's my big sister and i want her to be happy i don't want her to be cross with me so i might say i don't know if i'm that bothered and she'll say you know you like going you like the meatballs and I will I like the meatballs and I will turn into adaptive child yeah so the adaptive child within a sibling relationship so I will adapt to keep my older sister happy instead of staying in what we'd call adult no I'm okay I'm not and having the boundary that you need. And can those sister dynamics change, do you think?

Absolutely. Through life, because we have, hopefully, ideally, have them for all of our life. Yes, absolutely. You know, if it was on a piece of graph paper, it'd go up and down, it'd oscillate. When I was born and my sister was two, she bit me. She didn't like the attention. Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but just'm just thinking that Charlie bit my finger video continues. Yeah, I was a newborn baby getting all the attention. My sister was two and she came into the circle of adults and bit my arm and my mum bit her. I mean, this was the 70s. You could do things like that then.

But look at our relationship now. We're both therapists. We're so close. We're absolutely as close as anything. Yeah, we'll fall out and we'll bicker. But it changes over the years. Thanks, Jennifer. Thanks, Lavia and Lena. We're going to move on. Jennifer's going to stay with us, actually. We're going to continue talking throughout the programme as we hear about all facets of sister relationships.

And I realise as I speak to you that some of you will have experienced the loss of a sister and the grief that follows. Maybe you're also thinking about how to keep their legacy going. It is something that the activist Paisley Mahmood considers all the time. In January of 2006, Paisley was 18 years old when her sister Banaz, who was 20 then, was murdered in a so-called honour killing case. Their father and uncle are serving life sentences for the murder. A little earlier this year, Paisley wrote the following on Instagram. Today marks 18 years of life without you, Banaz. This year changes everything.

I now have to live without you longer than I lived with you. It feels so cruel and unjust. Moments with you are frozen in time and I treasure them with all my being. I talk about you loud and proud. I think of you in everything I do. I look at the world for both of us. I want to scream your name until it reaches you every day. There are the words from Paisley Mahmood.

And Paisley joins me now on a video call from France. Thank you so much for coming on Woman's Hour. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. And I'm so sorry for your loss. What do you remember about writing that post? Because I suppose it's really putting a private grief and making it public. Yes, yeah.

I think when I wrote that, what really, I think, moved me was this idea that we pretty much went through everything together in life you know our teen years moving to the UK as children starting school learning a new language all these things and I was now entering a new chapter of life where I was going to live you know without her longer than I had lived with her yeah, just really difficult to think that I'm going to just, you know, continue my life more than she's lived. Tell me a little bit more about your sibling-sister relationship with Benaz. You mentioned a few of the issues there.

I understand you were huge Mariah Carey fans. Yes. Yes, we were, yes. When we lived together, when we were both in our forced marriages, when we were taking up, you know, duties of adults, duties of wives, we would blast music and just allow ourselves to get lost in Mariah Carey's album and just, you know, do what we had to do, but find small joys in the really difficult times together. So let me put that in context for our listeners. You and Banaz were both married as children. You were 16. Yes.

Banaz was 17. These were deeply unhappy marriages to men who were much older than you. You mentioned some of the solace, perhaps, is that the right word, that you had going through this with Banaz to be able to I suppose at least lean on one another in a terrible situation? Yes absolutely and going through pretty much similar experiences seeing what one another was going through I think for both of us was really helpful and until then we hadn't really spoken openly about what we were going through I think we were both probably quite ashamed and very young, had never talked about healthy relationships, didn't really understand what we were going through was wrong.

And so when we lived together, it really brought out a whole different side to our relationship where we didn't even have to say things with words sometimes. We just knew, looking at each other, we just knew what that felt like, what different experiences felt like for one another. You both left those marriages after a number of years. Benaz fell in love, began a new relationship, and your father and uncle disapproved and killed her for it. And I can't imagine grieving your sister, how difficult and painful that must have been. But you also were having to do this in the public eye.

Do you think not being able to get away from that gaze changed in any way the way you grieved for your sister or were able to grieve for your sister? So in the public eye, what people heard was mostly about the way Benaz died and, you know, the tragedy of her death. And what was really important to me was to share the other side, was to share Benaz's life, Benaz's dreams, Benaz's aspirations, you know, the kind of person she was, who she wanted to be. And I think having a public voice allowed me to do that because I didn't want every time someone who heard Banaz's name

just to hear all the really, really difficult, most intimate moments of her life. I wanted them to know who she was. I wanted them to know what an incredible sister she was and how much myself and others loved her. I would like people to remember the happy, very caring, friendly, lovely young woman she was. You know, she loved caring for the elderly. It was her dream to work in an elderly home. She loved children. I want people just to remember that if they had met her even for five seconds, no doubt she would have put a smile on their face.

She was a very warm, gentle soul. She does, I think, reading about you, Paisley, drive your activism and your ambition to change things. And I can see you're getting emotional thinking about her right now. I'm sorry. Thank you. Yeah, yeah no she absolutely um inspires me to do the work that I do I I feel so much strength from her and there's no way I could have done this without the courage that I feel from my sister. And actually, the work that I do, it's interesting we're talking about sisters because for me, all of my work is about sisterhood. It's about connecting with women I don't know.

It's about connecting through our difficult experiences. So it has really actually, in some way, losing my sister has allowed me to find sisterhood globally with women I've never met before. How do you speak to your child about their Aunt Banaz that they didn't know? I actually, for me, it's really important to tell my son about her and to make sure that he knows her, even though she's not with us anymore. So we have pictures of her in our house, lots of pictures. And I have actually given my son, my sister's middle name, which is really important to me. And he's very proud of that. Ever since he can say his name, I always say to him,

this is your name and this is why you have this name. You know, we go to her resting place and I hope as he grows older, he's only two now, but as he grows older, I hope to tell him more and show him videos and show him more pictures so that really through me, he can feel the incredible auntie he would have had and he would have been able to build beautiful memories with. Paisley Mahmood thank you so much for speaking to us I know it's a very sensitive subject I really appreciate it and I should say to our listeners if you want more information and support about the topics we've been discussing do head to the BBC Action Line website. I want to turn to you Jennifer briefly Paisley they're dealing with the grief

of the loss of a sister and dealing with that grief I know for Paisley the circumstances were horrific but however it comes the loss of a sister is it different to grieving other family members do you think? I think first of all I mean you know Paisley's story about Benaz gosh feeling so much emotion hearing that but nobody will ever replace the person you've lost nobody will ever replace a sister you know and that grief journey that we're on doesn't end I know sometimes we talk about getting over grief or coming through grief and actually that relationship will always be there you know Paisley will always have a relationship with Benaz she will always be her sister even though she's not there now and I think that's important to acknowledge and I think at

first grief can feel so raw it's almost the horror of somebody's death, especially if it's sudden or complex in some way. It can feel like it takes the whole frame, the whole picture of that person is how their life ended. As time goes on, that picture becomes almost wider and we can see what they were as people and we can celebrate that and we can make meaning from that. The grief never goes, the pain never goes, but we can make meaning from what their life was like, what we want to take from it, their relationship. Lots of people were getting in touch with us

as we were talking about this programme. Annie was one. She says, my sister Sue died after a very short illness. I was so lucky to have her in my life. Treasure your sister. Tell them you love them, as Sue and I did all the time. Well, as we talk about sisters, I'm going to move on to my own. If you were listening last week, you might have heard me describe a photograph that we posted on Instagram. It's me, aged 11, an awkward age, let's be honest, in a velvet dress,

alongside my older sister Vera and my younger sister Eileen, who's celebrating her communion in that photograph. They both live in Ireland, so they're joining me on a video call. Hello, Eileen. Hello, Vera. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Hello. Hi. Good to have both of you with us. Now, let me start with you, Vera.

If you were to describe what we're like as sisters, what would come to mind? Oh, my goodness. We are all in tandem when it comes to dancing, I suppose. That's a good skill. And none of us can dance very well. Can't sing either. Can't sing either, that's true.

Eileen, what would you say if you would describe our relationship as sisters? Very connected, I think, and we do get on very well, which I'm proud to say. Yes, exactly. I'm going to put you on the spot, Fira. What word would you use to describe me as a sister? I couldn't give you a word, but you definitely marched to your own drum. What would that word

be? Independent? Independent, definitely. You liked to control the situation. And you would get out of things if you didn't like doing something, you'd get out of it. I'll put my hand up to that. By crook or by crook. Yeah, there's a few examples

I could give you. We won't go that far, but I was slightly infuriating. I can understand that. Eileen, I'll throw it over to you. Wild isn't the right word, but it would probably have explained you at your teenage years without getting into anything

too much. Too specific. Wild, I'll take it. Wild and independent. You were well able to chat to anybody, which we can see turned out in your favour. Exactly. Vera, you're the eldest. For a while, you were the only girl until I came along. We do have brothers as well, I should say. But do you remember what it was like for you when I did come along? I suppose you were little at that stage. You would have only been about three. Those days, though, you never knew that your mom was pregnant. You weren't told about that. Even when Eileen was born, when I was seven, the first thing I knew was a dad coming in and shouting, it's a woman, delighted and jumping up and down, you know, but really, I didn't know.

You just were there. And I suppose our house was so busy. There was always so many people that another person in the house was nothing. You know, another person. I do remember the dog coming. That's about it. But I don't remember you. So maybe that lessened the sibling rivalry.

We'll find out with Jennifer in a minute. But Eileen, what was it like? This you will know because you still are it. The youngest of three sisters. Do you think that shaped you in any way? Well, you paved the way for me

to get away with a few more things. So I made your path a little bit easier. I'm so glad to hear that. Somebody was wondering if I had a nickname as a kid. I did. Oh, New Sheen. New Sheen. New Sheen and Noodles. That was wondering if I had a nickname as a kid. I did.

Oh, New Sheen. New Sheen. New Sheen and noodles. That was kind of it. Thank you very much to Eileen and Vera. What a treat to have a chat with my sisters

about sisters. I want to bring in Jennifer here who's listening to it all. Some of the stereotypes around siblings that the eldest sister is bossy, the middle sister is a peacemaker and the little sister is spoiled.

That is not applying to our family. But I'm wondering, is there any substance to that or why does that even get bandied around? Absolutely. I think it was in the 1930s that a psychotherapist came up with these labels, you know, so they've stuck around. We love giving people labels, don't we? We like to put people into categories and then we can make sense of behaviours. But actually, since then, scientists find no proof of being these roles in the families. But let's look at circumstances. So if you were the only child and then a new baby came along and you saw the stress on your parents' faces. You saw them being so busy. You know, children pick up on things very quickly.

So that oldest child will become more independent. That oldest child may become more responsible. That oldest child might become more aware of other people and needing to be OK for the parents. So family circumstances can play a lot. But I don't think we're naturally born with these behaviours. Right. Yeah, it's so interesting what is suggested to us. And we are highly suggestible as humans. We know that. Let me turn to Hollywood, though.

Our cultural imaginations have long been occupied by famous sisters from Anne and Mary Boleyn to the Brontes all the way to the Mitfords. Can't forget the Kardashians. But when it comes to Hollywood, there is one set of sisters whose rivalry is the stuff of legend. The extraordinary and at times rather vicious sibling relationship between Olivia de Havilland and Joan Fontaine. Oscar winning British actresses who began their careers in the 1930s. Now with me in the studio to discuss this is film historian Alex von Tunzelman. Hello Alex, welcome. Thank you for having me. So those that aren't as familiar with these two ladies, who were they exactly? Well I mean they were huge Hollywood stars and Olivia became famous

first and then Joan initially sort of worked almost as her sort of housekeeper, drove the car, cleaned up and so on, and then said, actually, I'd quite like a Hollywood career too. And might give you a bit of a flavour of it that Olivia said, well, you're not having my name. So Joan had to change her surname to their stepfather's name. So Joan was Joan de Havilland? Yes, yes. They both were the daughters of Walter de Havilland. but Olivia reserved the right to use that name. So Joan had to change hers. So they both get into Hollywood, including Joan. Talk us through some of the most extraordinary moments of their rivalry. Well, they'd really been incredibly bitter rivals since childhood. I mean, there are incidents where they seem to have wanted to kill each other as children and express that desire. Very, very competitive with each other and yet very, very close as well.

And this really continued to a Hollywood career. So they both said that they got each other their most important roles. For instance, Joan Fontaine auditioned for Gone with the Wind for the role of Melanie Wilkes. And she said, the director said, well, you're too chic. And she said, well, if you want a simple, plain girl, what about my sister? So Olivia got the role of Melanie Wilkes. And similarly, Olivia said she got Joan Fontaine the role of Rebecca, which was so important.

And I think, you know, there definitely dates back to they had this mother, Lillian, who was herself, I think, a very controlling parent, very involved. So when, in fact, a journalist phoned her and said, was sort of talking through, oh, you know, your daughter Joan is in Rebecca. Lillian, the mother, had always preferred Olivia. And she said, yes, I always found Joan rather a phony, but she's quite good in this, quite believable. So I think the whole family had this extraordinary dynamic. They were both up for the Best Actress Oscar in 1942, competing against each other, sitting at the same table when it was announced.

And it was Joan that won it for her role in Suspicion. And Joan wrote afterwards, I froze. I stared across the table where Olivia was sitting opposite me. Get up there, she whispered commandingly. All the animus we felt toward each other, the hair pullings, the savage wrestling matches, all came back to me in kaleidoscopic imagery.

My paralysis was total. I felt Olivia would spring across the table and grab me by the hair. So it was an extraordinary moment. And then several years later, when Olivia won her first Oscar, there's an amazing photo of that moment because Joan went up to her to congratulate her. Olivia turned away and pulled the Oscar to her bosom. And this photographer snapped it and it became this incredibly famous photo of this snub.

But I think we should be careful that Joan always loved to paint herself as the victim, but so did Olivia. And both of them said they were constantly victimised by the other one, that it was the other one's fault. Olivia later said, it wasn't a feud because I never started anything. A feud would take two people,

at the same time as referring to her sister only by the name Dragon Lady throughout her entire memoir. So I think it's a complete lie that she didn't do anything. So the way you're describing it, it doesn't sound like it was something created by the studios, for example. It sounds like it were real. No, it was deeply real. I think the two of them definitely had this complicated relationship from childhood. They were close in age, is my understanding as well, Alex. Very close in age, only about a year apart. Let's throw that over to Jennifer. How do you understand this type of sister relationship?

Gosh, I mean, imagine having Olivia and Joan in the therapy room. I mean, it would be so much fun, scary, sparks would fly, wouldn't they? But what Alex was saying, you know, let's look back at the childhood. It sounds like resources were scarce, they competed for mum's love. We could look back, you know, right to day dot, they were in competition with each other. And there wasn't enough in the resources of love from mum to be able to be generous with that. And they both got their needs met by, in therapy speak, you know, we talk about the drama triangle, they both put themselves in the victim position. Yes. It's been done to me. I'm the victim. Even though they're both incredibly successful.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. What is it, do you think, Alex, that makes watching sisters or feuding sisters compelling? Because it's not the only place or between these two that we've seen it. I'm thinking of, I mean, one is the movie Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, but that's Bette Davis and Joan Crawford, not sisters in real life, but rivals. But they had this casting which, you know, continues to fascinate people. You know, that movie is a classic really because of these two sisters that... Well, spoiler free, pretty vicious to each other. Yes, I mean, incredibly vicious to each other. In a way, kind of the movie version of what you're describing with Joan and Olivia. Why do we want to watch that? Or why are we so interested in it? I mean, there's probably a bit of it

that's just an extension of kind of a patriarchal idea about women talking together. What are two women up to when they're talking together? They're gossiping, which is very, very threatening to the patriarchy, very scary. What are they doing? You know, what are they scheming, these women, and coming up with?

And I think sisters are a sort of ultimate distillation of that in that, of course, and coming up with? And I think sisters are a sort of ultimate distillation of that in that, of course, they have this real closeness. And even with Olivia de Havilland and Joan Fontaine, they actually could be weirdly close at some points despite absolutely genuine rivalry. After a break-up, they would look after each other, for instance. So there was a bit of push and pull.

Whatever happened to baby Jane is really a horror, often referred to as psychobiddy or hag-sploitation. Hag-sploitation, I've heard. Psychobiddy? Psychobiddy is another genre that gets put in. But on the other hand, I think that film, I wouldn't say it's a misogynist film because I think that would really underrate the incredible agency of Bette Davis and Joan Crawford in it,

who I think make it a truly extraordinary piece of cinema. I'm also thinking, of course, the Bennets from Pride and Prejudice, the March Sisters from Little Women. And those movies continue to be made again and again. What are we looking for, Jennifer, when we watch those movies? That kind of, I don't know, wholesome sisters all getting on so well together. Yeah, I think we're fascinated, aren't we? We're fascinated by how do we all get on together and also how do we fall out. We want to be able to compare ourselves to other people's relationships. So to get this little, well, through a film, to be able to get this bird's eye view of people getting it wrong or getting it right will always fascinate us and then we'll pit ourselves against what's our relationship like? Is our relationship as good as theirs or is it better so we can feel great about ourselves if we're putting someone

down or we can feel challenged if we've seen something better? You know it goes right back down to basic instincts doesn't it? What do you think about the way we're telling stories now on screen Alex about sisters? Well I mean hopefully there are more women getting to be storytellers in Hollywood these days. And I think what we would ideally hope is from the point of view of movies about sisters that that might again kind of broaden it out a bit. I mean, the most recent Little Women adaptation was directed by a woman, Greta Gerwig, you know, who has made some really interesting feminist films. I think you are seeing potentially a broadening of access to those sorts of storytelling roles. So I think what we'd hope is to see more types of depictions of sisters, that certainly they can be rivals,

but also that it can be a deeply loving and supportive relationship. And on the other hand, that's quite boring to watch. Of course, everybody would much rather see the drama. That's what often happens. Film historian Alex von Tunselman, thank you so much for joining us here on Woman's Hour as we talk about sisters on the big and little screen. What about that, Jennifer, though, if it is in real life,

and I'm sure you've come across this, when there is bitter hostility between two sisters, how to cope with that? Between two sisters, often there's a loss and a grief. I wish that I'd got a sister that I'd got on with. We can grieve something that we've never had maybe we've never got on with our sister but I think it's exploring what do I need you know and sometimes very rarely but sometimes it's not okay to have a relationship with your sister sometimes there is a fracture sometimes there's been bullying or abuse or something that can't be fixed.

And that's worth exploring as well. Now, as we have been discussing, the complex relationships we form with our sisters can have a huge impact on our identity and help shape us. But what if you don't have a biological sister or you didn't grow up with a biological sister and you want the support system that can come, as we've been hearing, with a sisterhood. Angel is 21 years of age and was in the care system from the age of five. She's a mentor or a big sister, as it is called, by Sister System. That is a charity that works with care experienced women and girls from the ages of 13 to 24. They're based in London. And Angel joins me as well as the charity's founder,

O'Kella Douglas. Welcome to you both. Hi. Thanks so much for having us today. Thanks so much for coming in. I'm going to start with you, Angel, if that's okay. What does sisterhood or being a big sister mean to you? Because you are doing it for girls that you're not related to. It means the world to me. I grew up obviously in care knowing that I had a biological sister but not knowing her so there was that void in my life and I think due to us not growing up together like it was never really repaired properly. And you were given a big sister or should I say a mentor when you were a teenager how did that affect you? That affected me for the better she is an absolutely angel to me she's my saviour honestly she guided me in the

way that I really needed at the time I met her when I was 13 and then we continued to work for a bit. So because you moved around in a lot of placements, which must have been really difficult for you, and I'm sure particularly as a young girl, really, turning into a young woman, having to do that. Was it being able to talk to her or trust her? What do you think was at the heart of it? Yeah, you know what?

In the beginning of our relationship, we didn't, well, I wasn't open to getting we didn't well I wasn't open to getting to know her I wasn't open to um speaking to her engaging but eventually when I did open up it was like a floodgate was opened and yeah it was it was amazing I can see the big smile you have now as you talk about her I'm wondering if she gave you a sense of belonging. Yeah, she definitely opened my eyes up and like broadened my horizon. I'll never forget when I was about 16, I was telling her how I was at school and I was advising like younger girls in my school. And she was like, you know, that's like mentoring, like you could actually do that. And at the time I was so completely like taken aback, but that ignited my desire to get into mentoring.

So when I found Sister System, I did find a way that I can fulfil that dream that I had of being a big sister and having that relationship. And you lead me directly to Akella, who runs Sister System. Tell me a little bit about you, Akella. Why did you want to particularly set this up? And I think the name of it really strikes me as well, Sister System, and you're working with care experienced girls. Yeah, thanks. So, well, I'm one of three sisters, who are also all five of the different sister type relationships that we have in any one day. So, yeah, completely, completely understand that.

But also grew up in a single parent household with an incredible matriarchal mother and part of an incredible community of women and girls who supported each other so I always benefited from both the biological and non-biological bonds that sisterhood or your sistering as we refer to in the Afro-Caribbean community have for each other and the way in which we are each other's champions and also challengers but also having really deep and meaningful relationships, again, with friends, with women that I met at university, through my education, through my career. And we together one evening kind of setting the world to rights, as you do over a bit too much wine in your kitchen, having adolescent daughters ourselves. And we kind of identified that this magic that we experience as women within our female relationships, particularly if there's a bit of an age gap,

the way in which we support each other, was something that we saw that was missing amongst girls and young women who were in the care system. And we all identified that that was something that we saw that was missing amongst girls and young women who were in the care system and we all identified that that was something that was transformational for us in our lives when relationships with intimate partners broke down your sisters are there when your job's going great your sisters celebrate you when it's going really badly your sisters celebrate you right they're there through the thick and the thin the good and the bad and I sat there and I said you know what it's like what these girls and young women need is a sister system and you know program that angel

took part in is called the big sister you never had yes I love that name yes so the big sister you never had provides the girls and young women that we work with, with a mentoring and learning programme and how to firstly build resilience and self-belief in themselves, understand healthy relationships and how to foster them, how to avoid and recover from unhealthy relationships, and then be able to share that with their peers and all of everything that's delivered at sister system is created with the girls and young women who take part in the programs and so one of those is angel who became a mentor for other girls what is it like to be a big sister to some of these girls it's a huge honor honestly i get to go on the trips with the girls get to like

plan the graduation I just planned the barbecue that we had it's really dope yeah yeah um hearing Angel's story okay that must be incredibly gratifying I come into work every day and Angel and other big sisters are in the office. And for me, that's what success is. And Angel and I have had some interesting times over the past few years of together managing what those transitions look like. And you have this vision of what you can offer through an organization or a business but there's nothing like having the people that are on the receiving end of that telling you very honestly because brutal honesty comes from the sisters right you're always going to get your

sister telling you the truth so you know angel's one of 23 big sisters that we've employed across the last four years. And they can see themselves in each other. It's a huge honour for me to be able to be to be part of that journey with them. Creating a sisterhood, really. Angel, what does the sisterhood mean to you? That's a very hard question, right? It's kind of hard to articulate. There's, yeah, there's a hard question, right? It's kind of hard to articulate. There's, yeah, there's a reliability there.

There's a sense of familiarity as well. I think, yeah, those girls that I grew up with, I've got them for life. They got me for life. And yeah, I really do lean on my sisters like a lot. And Akela, I'm like, yeah. Jennifer, it's so inspiring, I think, listening to Angel and Akela all like, yeah. Jennifer, so inspiring, I think, listening to Angel and Akella about their stories.

But what about those 13 to 24 years of age? They're really formative when you're growing from a girl into a young woman. And I suppose the importance of having strong female role models at that point. Huge, huge. You know, at that age, 13 to 24 and onwards, we're still, we're trying on our identities, aren't we?

You know, we're like in a changing room. We're putting on these new identities. Who am I? You know, what do I like? Finding out all this information. So having somebody, having this sisterhood, and I think Akella used that beautiful word it's magic it's hard I was touched by the word magic as well absolutely absolutely

sometimes words fail us it's magic it's special but it's a sense for me of no matter what I'm here no matter what and it's not advice is it it's not not. I like to see it almost like it's a dolphin. You know, you're swimming alongside somebody. Sometimes you'll lead the way, other times you'll be behind them, nudging them ahead. But I love that analogy because we're just there no matter what, through the failures, through the wins. We want to have perhaps wisdom from positive female role models, but we don't want somebody who judges

when we do make mistakes we want to be able to fail safely and we want somebody there cheering us on it's so vital lots of comments came in from listeners about their sisters here's one i'm lucky enough to have a sister who i'm very close to we grew up watching a wonderful sister bond between our mother and our aunt i'm so grateful that we have that relationship as adults. Late night giggles as children has turned into late night drinking wine as adults. I feel so lucky to be blessed with a sister. I can't imagine having the same closeness with a brother. That's another programme. We'll talk about the brothers at another programme. But you know, I was wondering, Jennifer, what would your top tips be for having great sister relationships or being a great sister?

You know what? It might sound like a bit of a cliche, but communication. We're always going to fall out. We're always going to have differences of opinions. You know, we're relational beings, aren't we? We're all individual. But if we can share that, if we can express that, and I would always say one of my top tips is always talk starting with the I, not the you. You know, you're always criticising me. You're one of my top tips is always talk starting with the I, not the you.

You know, you're always criticising me. You're always stealing my top. You're always this. Oh, I forgot to get into that with my sisters. Clothes stealing. I was the culprit there, I have to say. I've absolutely stolen plenty of my sister's clothes. But, you know, when we're feeling hurt or there's a fracture somewhere, we go on the attack, don't we?

And what happens with the other person is they put the shutters down. I can't hear it. I'm being attacked. But if we start with always with an I, I feel a bit sad about our relationship right now. I need some connection. Can we go out for a coffee? So if we're starting with the I word, it really helps build any fractures that we might have. I'm simplifying it, you know, obviously some fractures take a lot of hard work, but let's always say what we need and how we're feeling rather than what the other person is doing to us. Been such a treat to have you in studio, Jennifer. So thanks very much through all the items and people that we were discussing today, Jennifer Gledhill, for joining

us on Woman's Hour today. And thanks to you for listening and to all my guests that were with us over the past hour. First for me, interviewing both my sisters on Woman's Hour. Do join me same time, same place for Woman's Hour tomorrow. And until then, have a lovely day. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.