Woman's Hour - Six the Musical, Author Hannah Jewell on 'snowflakes', Women in Ukraine

Episode Date: January 25, 2022

Six the Musical is currently on stage at the Vaudeville Theatre in London. The show follows Henry VIII’s six wives, as they take the microphone for the first time in a ‘Britain’s Got Talent’ style sing-off. Originally written by two Cambridge University students and showcased at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe in 2017, it has since taken London’s West End by storm and has just opened on Broadway. Joining Emma are Lucy Moss, co-director and co-writer of the show, and Tsemaye Bob-Egbe, who plays Henry VIII’s fifth wife Katherine Howard in a brand new London cast.Boris Johnson is under renewed pressure after Downing Street admitted staff gathered inside No 10 during the first Covid lockdown to mark his birthday in June 2020. A spokesperson said staff had "gathered briefly" to "wish the Prime Minister a happy birthday", adding that he had been there "for less than 10 minutes". There have been recent suggestions that No 10 would benefit from having more women in high profile roles to sort out what has been reported to be a 'lad's lair'. Baroness Kate Fall was Deputy Chief of Staff for David Cameron while he was Prime Minister, and joins Emma.Are the youth of today oversensitive, mollycoddled and intellectually weak? Is cancel culture spiralling out of control? According to journalist and writer Hannah Jewell, author of new book We Need Snowflakes: In defence of the sensitive the angry and the offended, the term ‘snowflakes’ has been used to demonise young people who care passionately about fighting racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia and economic inequality.As Russian troops mass on the border with Ukraine, and NATO warns of a risk of fresh conflict in Europe, Emma speaks to BBC Ukrainian Service journalist Irena Taranyuk about the pressures and decisions facing women in her country right now.The MP Sir Edward Leigh, who himself suffers from rosacea, has tabled a debate on the link between skin problems and poor mental health to be held at Westminster Hall later today. He joins Emma Barnett to discuss his concerns alongside the consultant dermatologist Dr Penelope Pratsou who also speaks on behalf of the British Skin Foundation.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Let me start today's programme by sharing some words with you. What's that smell? Oh, it's her knickers. Those are the words of police officers at a North East London police station after a female academic was held down on the floor and strip searched, followed by, is she rank? Now that same woman, Dr. Koshka Duff,

has won an apology and compensation from the Metropolitan Police because they used sexist, derogatory and unacceptable language as they strip searched her. She's now an assistant professor of philosophy at Nottingham University. And those words were captured on CCTV that was disclosed as part of a civil action that she took against the force.

She was arrested in 2013 on suspicion of obstructing and assaulting police after trying to hand a legal advice card to a 15-year-old caught in a stop and search sweep in Hackney, allegations she was cleared of in court. But before that, she was taken to Stoke Newington Police Station, where a search was ordered after she refused to cooperate with officers. Now we've invited her, we've invited Dr Duff onto Woman's Hour, and I very much hope we can make that happen, should she wish to, of course, and hear directly from her and more detail about that case and, of course, the impact on her,

especially seeing as this happened in 2013. But I just wanted to say to you, especially on a programme like Women's Hour, those words again. What's that smell? Oh, it's her knickers. How is that sort of shaming and that sort of disgust at women's bodies, still even a thing.

Yes, it was in 2013, but it was in a professional setting. She has said it exposes the culture of sexualized mockery. But there is probably very few women out there who didn't read this. If they have read this story and if it's the first time you're hearing of it, please take in those words. And I realize you almost might not believe them in some way. But there isn't a woman who had read that who wouldn't be aware of that being a regular style of insult to women, that you smell there around your vagina, that there is this disgust at women's bodies. And it's continued into adult life. And in this instance, they've taken full responsibility for it. There has been compensation paid and apology issued. She smells. It's her knickers. And I suppose I

just wanted to say it to you and see what you had to say this morning and see where we are with this and how possibly it could change. So I hope you know the number to text me here at Women's Hour on by now. It's 84844. Text will be charged to your standard message rate. I very much hope we can welcome Dr. Koshka Duff to the programme because Woman's Hour is all about hearing from women in their own voices, but it's also very much about hearing from you, our listeners. So do check with your network provider for exact costs. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour.

If you wish to just say something about that or relate it to any of your own experiences or what you think of it, or email me your take through our website. Also on today's programme, how are the women of Ukraine preparing and coping for the possibility of fresh conflict? And also we'll be hearing a defence of so-called snowflakes. If you even know what we're talking about, perhaps you think you do. And maybe that'll be redefined by the journalist and author, Hannah Jewell, and why Henry VIII's wives are firing up audiences. All that to come on the programme. But first, as you've been hearing throughout this morning's news bulletins, Boris Johnson is under renewed pressure.

Darning Street have admitted staff gathered inside No. 10 during the first COVID lockdown to mark his birthday. ITV News reported up to 30 people attended the June 2020 event and sang happy birthday and were served cake. Number 10 has said staff gathered briefly to wish the Prime Minister a happy birthday, adding that he had been there for less than 10 minutes. There have been recent suggestions that Number 10 would benefit from having more women in high-profile roles. Make of that what you will to sort out what's been reported to be a lad's lair. Women like perhaps

Baroness Kate Fall, who for 11 years was Deputy Chief of Staff for David Cameron, five in opposition and six while he was Prime Minister. Nicknamed the gatekeeper, she along with Edward Llewellyn, the Chief of Staff, were senior political advisors at the centre of running the country. Baroness Catefall, good morning. Good morning. Downing Street described as a lad's lair. What do you make of that, first of all? Well, I think, look, there is always sometimes at number 10 a bunker mentality, which I think my job as the sort of gatekeeper was to sort of stop that. But that, with the COVID crisis, has created a bit of a sort of green zone mentality. And I don't know that it's just about sort of having women there,

but it's also about having a balance. And it's about, with Ed, Llewellyn and I, you know, we ran the show together. It was very disciplined and efficient. And it does sound like there is a lack of grip at the centre. And what gives you that impression? Well, you just have the impression that decisions aren't made in a group where people trust each other, where in number 10, the important thing is, is that you create an atmosphere for good decision making. That's sort of your job as the backup to the Prime Minister. That means getting the right people in the room to make the decision, shut the door, and don't hear about those discussions in the media

or in the Sunday Times in the weekend, because there isn't that sense of, you have to have a sense of trust that you can argue something out. And we are seeing, in a sense, the leaks from Number 10, and also, frankly, a bit of a scapegoat mentality, which I think only adds to the sense of sort of fractionalism at the centre of a scapegoat mentality which I think only adds to

the sense of sort of fractionalism at the centre. The scapegoat mentality explained what do you mean by that? Well I think you I think that the prime minister has to be careful but you know every time there's a crisis someone else doesn't sort of get thrown out of number 10 and on they move and I do think that you know leadership and atmosphere of number 10 comes from the top and you know every time we hear about a party there's a oh that wasn't a party or I wasn't there and I think the Prime Minister does need to be careful it's that he is the leader the atmosphere comes from him and it would be much better if you had a feeling of a cohesive group of people who trusted each other. There'll be people listening to this thinking, that's exactly what we want. But we've got a

window, it seems, through a pattern of leaks and reports. And yes, I know that there is this Sue Gray report coming, looking into all this. But there is a pattern that seems to be emerging about a time not that long ago, when the Prime Minister was facing a huge crisis along with other world leaders. And I just wanted to get from someone like yourself who's been in one of these key positions, what is your reaction to how it seems that the country was being run at that point around him?

Well, look, first of all, I'm sympathetic to the centre. They faced a crisis which was much bigger and went on for much longer than anything i certainly had to face or i think my predecessors i you do get the impression um that there as i said was a bit of a green zone mentality which is we're in a crisis you know things, things are different for us. But look, Emma, I think the accumulative effect of the sense that the rules for all of you are not for us, I think is very damaging for the centre. And like all these things, there's a combination, isn't there, between nothing much to look at and maybe, you know, something to look at.

I think people would be sympathetic the idea of people working all day and all night in number 10 and having a drink at their desk at the end of a day but what this looks like is is more than that in a sort of culture so i think about that culture why do you think it's it didn't seem obvious that they had to follow the rules um but i mean it's back to what i said i think there is a sense of that we're all working hard to solve this crisis and the rules don't necessarily sort of mean that for us and you know we're at the heart of this crisis zone and and it must be very stressful and there is a sense of letting off steam but look it comes back to the main point which is there's this uncomfortable feeling, isn't there, that they're sort of what everyone else has to put up with. We make the rules.

And yet we're sort of like, we don't have to abide by them ourselves. And look, rule makers should not be rule breakers. And people don't like that. We mustn't take people for fools. Are you angry about it? You're a Conservative peer. Does it make you look like a fool to be a member of this party? Well, it's uncomfortable when you look around the country and you hear testimonies of people who haven't said goodbye to their loved ones, who were little girl writing in saying she missed her birthday party. You do feel a sense of, you know, shame and discomfort at that sort of thing let's come to consequences in just a moment but this this idea i mean it was written in a piece by anne mccalvoy the journalist yesterday that if there were more women around more women like you could calm stuff down and

could warn of trouble brewing and fewer blokes running around buying cases of malbec what do you make of that well it's tempting to say that the women should run the world. And I'm not saying by any means I was perfect in everything I did in my time in number 10. But look, I think a balance is important. And I think boundaries are important. And one of the things that worked well in my time in number 10 was that I have Samantha Cameron, another sort of strong woman, to thank for the fact that she didn't want a sort of non-stop meeting, pizza-eating drinks, which used to say Clinton-style pizza-eating meetings, no boundaries. There was very much a view that everybody worked hard.

When there was a meeting, there was a meeting, but things didn't sort of morph from one into the other, as it were. So I think that is an important part of it. So Samantha Cameron used to shut the door and delineate? She absolutely did. I mean, of course, if there was a crisis, you know, we were all there, but there wasn't a sense of we were just more from one, from morning, evening into, oh, let's all sort of chat this over.

I mean, she was very clear this is family time or David Cameron would be reading his papers in the red box. But there were strong boundaries. Do you think Boris Johnson doesn't have strong boundaries? I don't know because I don't work in number 10. But you do get the impression that certainly over Covid that there has been less boundaries than there might have been. Of course, you mentioned Samantha Crammer she's actually been a guest on this programme

and talked about her own career and her own right but also trying to be in that role and Carrie Simons as was now Carrie Johnson has been pulled into this and of course what she is different in the sense of being a spouse, being a partner,

is that she is herself and was a political operator. She worked at Conservative Party HQ in a senior communications role. There have been talks of how sexist some of those attacks have been, but equally others say you have to accept that she is different in that respect.

Do you think perhaps there is a blurring of boundaries because of her interests and her expertise, some would say, in politics? I don't know about the blur of boundaries. I mean, I think you can't expect to have a spouse sitting upstairs and never have a view on anything, especially if they're smart and independent and in Carrie's place, you know, a political advice on her own level. But, you know, during this sort of crisis that we've witnessed over the last couple of years, the fact that people are working

downstairs all day, all night, all weekend, you are probably, it is a sort of rife climate for the sort of blurring of boundaries that we're hearing about and are about to hear more about when Sue Gray does her report. What do you make of the fact that only one person,

and I know it doesn't need to necessarily be about scapegoating, but people do want consequences, Baroness Capefall, at this point. They do, and some would say they deserve them in terms of the people deserve culpability. There deserves to be a response to this, not just a report. There deserves to be some change that is demonstrable in some way. What do you make of the fact that only one person has resigned? She happens

to be a woman. She's called Allegra Stratton. She was a senior advisor to the Prime Minister and then at the particular point of this video being leaked about her joking about parties in a mock press conference she was gearing up to be his press secretary. We have talked about this on the programme and our listeners, some of them, have

commented how striking that is. Well look i mean i i absolutely take your point of course there is a sense that people you know people deserve to have maybe a resignation or they're angry and i sympathize with that but i don't what i don't like emma is the sort of oh let's fling another escape gate out of the door there's almost a herd of them around and I thought Allegra sat him I mean it was uncomfortable the video it did make uncomfortable looking at but but but equally she was answering awkward questions and I and I thought there was a side of me that felt that feels a bit ugly frankly. So if you don't want a whole queue of scapegoats, final thought from you, I mean if Sue Gray's report sort of you know bears out what we've been reading and seeing even in

possibly even more detail with you know more evidence that's come forward that won't have been leaked yet to the press, what do you think should happen? Well look it's impossible to say because we haven't seen it. It might be that there are individuals who particularly need calling out and maybe do deserve to sort of think about their role. Does that include the prime minister? I think the prime minister needs to get a group of people around him who he trusts, who trust each other, who don't feel they're going to be flung out the door or leaked about in the newspaper. Shut the door. Talk about in the newspaper. Shut the door, talk about decisions, make good decisions. That's what a number team should be there for.

But what if he can't make the right decisions to get the right people? Well, that is a question which I think that his fellow MPs and the party in the country will be all thinking about when they look at that report later this week. But the one thing I would say is, you know, Boris Johnson has a huge majority. There are lots of problems in the world today, including Putin. We are spending a lot of time worrying about parties. There are lots of important issues.

There are, and that's one way of spinning it, especially as you retain the Conservative seat in terms of being a House of Lords member for the Conservative Party, I should say. And you choose to retain that. You know, it's always noticeable who does and who doesn't. But what I would say is it's one way to spin it. We're just worrying about parties. But actually, another way to look at it is people are worrying about the judgment

of the man who's running the country. And that's the question. That's absolutely right. And I think the point is, is that I think that this has been uncomfortable. And I think it does show a lack of grip at the center are you comfortable with that lack are you comfortable with that lack of grip continuing as we as we teeter on the edge of a ukraine conflict i would like to see boris johnson take a grip of number 10 run a a more coherent a more trustworthy show and be as good a leader as he is a campaigner, Emma. How long are you giving him?

I think like most of the rest of the party would like to see, you know, how he handles the Ukraine crisis, how the May elections look, and let's hope that things look a bit better in a few months. A few months. We will talk again. Baroness Cote-ess cape fall thank you very much um i'm just being told that police are to investigate downing street parties over potential lockdown breaches that's been confirmed by the met police commissioner crescent edict you will remember she had her term extended by boris johnson's administration and messages coming in coming back to the police before we just cross over to the latest with regards to ukraine um i read to you at the beginning of the programme something I just felt I had to share with you. And it was the words of some police officers in 2013, police officers, part of the Metropolitan

Police who've had to apologise and pay compensation to an academic as part of a strip search. She was then cleared of all charges in court with regards to that. They said, what's that smell? Oh, it's her knickers. Is she rank? And I wanted to talk to you about that. And I cannot tell you how many messages we've had where you just want to respond. And I had a feeling you might. Hearing those words has triggered the feeling of shame ingrained in me from girlhood. When will it change? When? Women are being murdered in the streets. There's this culture of shaming and it's the genesis of it. Thank you for your strong and hard hitting words this morning. I'm furious and heart sore in equal measures.

That's from Elizabeth who's listening in Dublin. Good morning to you, Elizabeth. Another one here. Hello, Emma. I can't help but think how childish the knicker comment sounds, like something in the school playground, the sort of comment made by the ringleader of a group of boys with one feeling less confident around women than others, from Lynette.

Regarding this story, I find the fact that those words were said far more disgusting than the words themselves. Another one, I'm totally shocked at the language. I felt the blood drain from my face. A rush of anger reads this message. I'm absolutely appalled. By the way, men smell too. We are human indeed.

A message here, please keep confidential. It is a challenge bringing up sons and daughters. I often have to step in to curb comments about female smells, such as during the time of the month made about females in the home, myself and my teenage daughter. Negative comments seem to be part of a teenage boy's vocabulary, accepted and thrown about. But these comments are as hurtful as they are unacceptable.

There is no equivalent for male smells emanating from the male body. Comments about smelly football boots are external to the wearer, less personal and less hurtful as a result. Well, thank you so much for your candour. I always appreciate it. We all do. 84844 is the number you need to text. Well, we were just talking about what the Prime Minister

should be focusing on is the situation in Ukraine. Well, yesterday, he did warn that Russia invading Ukraine would be disastrous and a painful, violent and bloody business. Speaking as the Foreign Office pulled some embassy staff out of the Ukrainian capital Kiev, he said the situation was pretty gloomy, but war was not inevitable. Now we've heard 8,500 US combat-ready troops have been put on high alert to be deployed at short notice if NATO needs them. NATO itself is putting forces on standby, it says, to reinforce its defences and for the purposes of deterrence. In today's Times newspaper, you may have seen this, you may not, there is a very striking image of a 52-year-old woman in Kiev who's bought herself a high-powered

rifle. She's standing with it. Russia, as you know, I'm sure by now, has denied plans for military action. But with an estimated 100,000 troops amassed on the border, people in Ukraine are dealing with the very real possibility of fresh conflict in their country. So what decisions and pressures are women there facing? Let's talk now to my colleague from the BBC Ukrainian service, Irena Taranyuk. Good morning. Good morning, Emma.

I wanted to start with what you're hearing from women in Ukraine and how close this threat feels to them. Well, the threat is very real, but you have to remember that Ukrainian women, as Ukrainian society at large, has lived under the not imaginary but very real threat of war, the very of warfare closer to home to Ukrainians living in Kiev, in central Ukraine. But the east of Ukraine has been in a state of war, albeit unrecognized for the last eight years. And the things I hear from women in particular now, that psychological pressure, the pressure of uncertainty is even harder on them than the actual probably warfare or occupation should it come.

They do hope that the hot phase of war will not reach Kyiv, but the escalation of rhetoric, ratcheting up of words and sort of saber-rattling on the borders of Ukraine, and the sense of threat is sometimes more scary than the war itself, people tell me. And this 52-year-old woman in The Times today is symptomatic of very many women's attitudes. I find in Gabriel Gatehouse's report there is a doctor who joined territorial army. There are IT specialists, both women and young men, who on top of their civil jobs spend their weekends training in the basics of self-defense, in the basics of digging trenches. Because should Russian soldiers cross the border,

they will be met with very strong, very discernible fighting from Ukrainians. I was just wondering about women's role in the Ukrainian military and also on the front line. What's that situation? Interestingly, there is some statistics from the Defense Ministry that shows that Ukrainian women started actively joining the armed forces since the start of the war. Because at the moment, almost 15% of military personnel are women. 32,000 women are in active service now.

And since the start of the war, according to statistics, nine women have died out of 14,000 plus Ukrainians that have died in Donbass. Nine are women. And not just traditional kind of medical professions, there are women who serve as snipers. You have to realize that apart from regular armed forces fighting in the East, there are some of the voluntary so-called brigades. And Ukrainian women have been probably, have showed themselves to be at the forefront of both self-mobilization as the strong force in society. And that's what I find so fascinating because women are leading the efforts

of kind of self-help groups, non-governmental organizations, volunteering organizations. So Ukrainian women are a formidable force. And even though the society at large is being threatened by this invasion, partial incursion or massive invasion, women will be very active in any defence. Thank you very much for putting us in that picture.

Perhaps we'll also talk again as this does or doesn't develop, of course, as people really hope it doesn't in that picture. Perhaps we'll also talk again as this does or doesn't develop, of course, as people really hope it doesn't in any way. But certainly it's very much one to keep across. Irena Taranyuk, my colleague from the BBC Ukrainian service. Thank you.

Messages, I have to say, still coming in with regards to those words I read out at the beginning of the programme about the Met apologising to an academic, a professor, about some words they used towards her during a strip search in 2013.

She's received an apology and compensation. Talking about Dr. Koshka Duff, who we have invited on the programme. Victoria says, knickers often do smell, mind you, all the time. In this scenario, if it was a man and his bottom smelt, or as you put it, his arse, or he had a skid in his pants,

he's saying they wouldn't have made a comment. They shouldn't make personal comments full stop. This has nothing to do with her being a woman, says Victoria. Many would differ with you and have on message, but I wanted to share that email from Victoria. A message here from Julie who says, on women being called smelly, I really want to congratulate you

on bringing this difficult subject to air. It's something that many women go through as they hit puberty. I've seen it on the gay scene where men frequently refer to women as fish. I was told mine stinks by a man and I was shouted at because he cut me up in his car

when I was on my motorbike. And it's the issue. Germaine Greer used to separate the experience of young girls growing up to that of young men. It's a powerful idea that people shudder to think about. So I'm very glad you're discussing it.

MSHL, listening to the first words of your programme today took my husband and I back to the unpleasantness of events that happened to our 13-year-old daughter at school when she was repeatedly called fishy by a group of boys who used these terms to demean her, laugh at her while she was completely oblivious to the meaning of the word and derogatory sexual connotations. This did not happen just in 2013, sadly, referring to the police. This is happening here and now. And so those messages continue. I would come back to as many of them as I can as possible. 84844 is the number to message me on. And of course, we're available on social media or you can email me through the Women's Hour website.

But we're talking about language. We're talking about how you feel when you hear something. Let's move on to the youth of today. Are they oversensitive, mollycoddled, intellectually weak? According to the journalist and writer Hannah Jewell, who's 32, I think that's relevant maybe to mention, maybe not, author of a new book, we need snowflakes in Defence of the Sensitive,

the Angry and the Offended. The term snowflakes has been used to demonise young people who care passionately about fighting racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia and economic inequality. So she attests. Hannah, good morning. Good morning. I hope that being 32 indicates that I'm young to people. I'm 36, but I feel about 60 in this body, to be honest. So that's a whole other story. Why did you feel motivated to write a whole book about why we need snowflakes? So this is something that has bothered me for years.

I'm both American, as you can hear, and British. I consume media in both countries. And I saw that particularly in Britain, there is an almost obsessive tendency in the British press. Every day, you see a new article about how young people are to this, to that, how civilization is collapsing around us because, you know, someone got a bit upset at a university or something like this. And I began to look into these sort of stories. And I found that these tales of the alleged snowflake, which when used as an insult means someone who's too sensitive, who is perhaps also authoritarian somehow, but also fragile, and all these contradictory things that are just sort of unpleasant and signal to a reader or a listener that they shouldn't like this person and they should discredit their politics as a result.

And this has bothered me for so long, I thought thought I'm going to do a book about this. And I thought that the term snowflake was a great way to encapsulate a sort of set of problems and this sort of fictitious character that's been created in the mind of the media to demonize young people, not always young people, you can be not always, not always fictitious. And well, I But what I mean is that it's a sort of a caricature, an easy go-to sort of stand-in for all sorts of people. And even if the language changed, people might complain about the woke mob coming to yell at them on Twitter. But really tracing the journey of the snowflake from, I should say, these sort of far-right origins on the internet and in far-right media in the US as well. Yeah, I was going to say, where did you find the first word or first use of that word in this way coming about?

Well, actually, the first time it was used as an insult was in Civil War Missouri, as Merriam-Webster has found when this term started to emerge into public discourse. Referenced in Fight Club also, it sort of had these sort of like starting to mean sort of a weak person. Fight Club, the film. The film and the book actually is referenced there twice. But really it took hold in places like Breitbart in the US. This sort of far right media that used the term to denote, you know,

anyone that a website like that wouldn't like any enemies of Donald Trump, a snowflakes and so on. But you sort of see, starting in perhaps 2016, around the Brexit referendum, you see the way that it kind of enters more mainstream discourse, it was used very much around the Brexit vote to denote young people who are very upset about the result of that referendum. And it has this big moment with the election of Donald Trump also, but it has really stuck around in a way that has irritated me, both because, you know, it's a silly insult. But also, I have strongly thought for years that the things that we think are bad, that make a snowflake bad are actually probably very good for society. It's kind of a sort of debate at the heart of that in itself about,

you've written a book about lots of the fiction around this. You've looked at some of the stories. There's one I'll bring up in just a moment to give the example of. And yet at the same time, you're not denying that there is this sort of group of people that exist and you're trying to defend their rights at the same time. So which is it? Do they exist and, you know, you have to defend them or do they not exist?

They do exist. They do exist they do exist I'd say that um I what I did at the start of writing was I did a sort of call out to find out who has been called a snowflake and why have you been called one oh absolutely yeah I mean I've been a woman journalist I uh I don't think I've actually been called a snowflake I've been called many things as a female journalist but maybe today's the day. Right, yes, I'll await. Call in, yeah. So I did this call out and I found the way that you can get called a snowflake from just these sort of horrible interpersonal interactions. People being called by their dodgy uncle a snowflake

because they don't want their uncle to be racist. Yes, you dedicate the book to your silly parents. My silly parents in a loving way. There was a lot of negotiation with my parents about how noble I should make them sound in the dedication, but they gave birth to me, and so I get to do the dedication as I please. But you see the way that both in personal situations

and in sort of more big public ones, you see the way that this term is often used to denote, it's often working class kids. It's often kids of color, kids, I mean, like young adults also. And it's used to sort of say that they're too fragile. So the thing is, is that, yes, we can reclaim this term. Yes, we can say this is a figure that does exist. So you want people to say, I am a snowflake, and that's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. Yeah. I think if someone called them a snowflake rather, it's sort of a difficult position to be called a snowflake because it might really, you know, anger you a little bit. And then they'll say, see, you got

upset. You have feelings. I mean, you've looked into some headlines, for instance, October 2019, the Daily Mail reported on something wild going on at Oxford University. The headline read, snowflake students are the latest to demand clapping is banned because applause noise could trigger anxieties. They call for jazz hands to be used instead. And actually something else happened. Well, this is such a great example of how these especially university-based snowflake panics emerge and just spread like wildfire across, honestly, the international press. What actually happened was there was a young woman named Rasheen who was a student at Oxford who was a welfare officer and tasked with looking out for the welfare of students.

She was approached by a disability officer saying, you know, for some people with sensory disabilities, some people with hearing aids, also a few different groups of students at these student council meetings, because there was such raucous applause after every single little motion that passed, couldn't hear literally what was coming next or it was just too much. And she, as a person tasked with exactly this kind of thing, made a suggestion. She seconded a motion, actually. It's so many levels removed from how extreme it sounds, saying that, oh, hey, what if sometime, you know, what if we do British Sign Language clapping, which the Daily Mail called jazz hands? What if we did that after some motions so that students with disabilities aren't, you know, barred in any way from coming to student council meetings? And then she ended up just being absolutely dragged by everybody.

Piers Morgan was tweeting at her, telling her to grow a pair. She was really piled on in this incredible way. And so I rang her up. I talked to her about this. And you found out the story was along those lines. The caricature she'd been made out to be, being called a snowflake by millions of people, she's just such a cool girl. So was just... So I think, you know,

delineating between when there's been essentially a write-up that it's not fair and then spreads, like you talk about, about a so-called snowflake and then going towards what you think is good

about being a snowflake. And if I could go there for a moment, you argue that universities should be a respite, just going back to uni for a moment, for students marginalised,

for race, sexuality or gender. You ask, what if university was a time when you could enjoy a good coddling? Would that be such a bad thing? What do you mean by that? So this is a big thing that snowflakes are accused of, is that, you know, they're not prepared for the real world. And what I, my argument in that chapter that you refer to is really about different types of students. Someone like me, when I went to university, I grew up in a idyllic California suburb. I'm white. I went to university and was opened up to this whole world of having my mind blown, meeting people of, you know, different races, nationalities, different religions, and so on, and did so much learning and so much unpacking of what I thought

the world was like there. I think that there's an assumption when we talk about snowflakes that we're talking about a really elite, privileged, white figure who is just so rich and coddled already. What I mean when saying like, maybe some people deserve to just by having a cuddling, I mean, not fear for their safety, not be subject to insults from their professors, from everyone. What if professors are made to feel like their views are not welcome by snowflakes, as you term them now, as the ones who could reclaim it? I think that if you are a professor, I'm married to a professor, and I think that we should give professors more credit that they shouldn't be afraid of their own students. I think that they should be held to a higher standard because of the relationship of power. And I think that students can be expect to be challenged, absolutely, you know, studying Chaucer or whatever, but they shouldn't have to sit there and have their reality denied,

have their identity denied, be subject to racist language, all these sort of things. And if that happens to them, do they have every right to taunt, to protest, to put up signs in toilets? Do they have every sort of right? I mean, I'm just thinking Kathleen Stock, Professor Kathleen Stock, formerly of Sussex University, sat in that very chair when you're sitting to talk to me about her experience. And actually, it wasn't mainly her students in fact she was talking about fellow colleagues um I think the issue I suppose rather than talking about her specific case because you talk more broadly as well although you do specifically name certain people certainly in your chapter about gender identity um and there's a question I have about that but you know is the idea that the

people that you say should reclaim the word snowflakes seem to have a certain set of political views. And if you don't agree with all of those views, that's when you may come a cropper by so-called snowflakes. Well, what you just described in that case, particularly, but also that you said, are they allowed to, you know, put up signs and protest? You're describing these fundamental free speech rights. And I think that story in particular, which is where it tips into intimidation, isn't it? Yeah, because I imagine if you were to do the signs that didn't agree with the worldview that

you're purporting, because you do have a very strong worldview in this book, you do have, you've used this book, not just to defend snowflakes, you've used the book to defend a worldview. Well, what I think is that there are these, of course, there are these lines of, you know, not using violence, for instance, to make your free speech point. And I think there's very different rules about free speech in the US and the UK. But I think that those students, students have the right to express themselves. And actually, in fact, professors like Cassie Stock, who you mentioned, who's not in the book, but who I listened to that interview just the other day,

she has not been silenced either legally. She was not pushed out by her university. She resigned. She was not made... She felt she had no choice. She felt she had no choice, but she did have a choice. Like, if you take it out legally, literally... I don't think that's for you to say, though, is it?

And she's not in the room. Yeah, the government did not... You wouldn't talk on behalf of someone who was marginalized. You say yourself you're not. So you probably shouldn't talk on behalf of Kathleen Stock. The thing is, the fundamental truth is at the end of this controversy, and as she said on your in your interview, she defined this as sort of the pinnacle of her life. She has so much more speech. She defined the writing, not the fight. She defined the writing about this as the pinnacle of her life. She has so much more speech. She defined the writing, not the fight. She defined the writing about this as the pinnacle of her academic life. I did not know who Kathleen Stock was before she went through this controversy through which she says she has been silenced.

She has a bigger platform than she's ever had before. And I think every student has the right to protest, to put up a sign. And that's being protested at the moment, you know, with the police. Exactly. The thing is, is when the state steps in, or even you were speaking earlier about Kashka Duff, who's actually my friend, who was violently assaulted by the police while doing a sort of protest action, handing out like know your rights cards

to someone being stopped in search. That is a free speech abridgment. And so often these sort of snowflake controversies assume that a teenager telling you where to go on Twitter is as powerful an abridgment of free speech as that. The calibration of power is really important. I mean, I think it's interesting as well. In your book, you do take aim over, as you described, left-wing and right-wing feminists over the issue of trans rights. You actually, interestingly, choose to use the term many find offensive to describe those feminists who believe sex is binary.

You choose to call them TERFs, which if you don't know, is trans exclusionary radical feminists. That's a very deliberate choice by you. I actually felt the book slightly went off on a tangent here because I was trying to link it back to Snowflakes. But you have a whole chapter on this. And I wondered why you chose to use that phrase. Yeah, well, what's interesting is, A, many do actually self-identify this. I was reporting on the challenge to Roe v. Wade at the Supreme Court that's being argued right now.

And there was a contingent of, which I was surprised to see in America, you know, self-described TERFs with their like saying, get off our turf or something like that. Like it's sort of a it's literally a description to describe a worldview. I think when we say it's like a slur, it's not like a slur because we're saying it on the radio. You know, you're very good at saying what's not a slur to certain people and what is a slur to other people? I suppose the issue about being a snowflake and reclaiming it in the way that you are is, you know, you've got to have this worldview to be on the right side of history, it seems now. And you've got very clear, you yourself in this book, you have it written very clearly who's the victim and who isn't. And that's why people get frustrated. Well, the point of the book is I also think that there's a, well, I want to say one last thing on transphobia, actually.

You want to say a heck of a lot on it I've read your whole chapter like and I it's in the book because those who are particularly by like far right in America those who are called snowflakes are often called so for like transgressing transgressing rather gender norms and expectations and stereotypes as a semi-outsider as both and American, I cannot tell you how bizarre the debate here is framed. Transphobia is just, it's a different, it's weird. You can tell I get riled up about it because it's just so baffling to me that it has been set up as a debate between trans rights on one side, women's rights on the other. And I just do not think these things are in opposition. But if you wanted to improve the dialogue, some may say using TERFs, because you could use it once, but using it the whole way through your book, and you've been less than complimentary about certain people, but that's completely all right. And I would defend that right, as those people would say, they would defend it,

and vice versa. I'm trying to be an arbiter here. But I would say that you've come down on one side there very, very clearly using language that people may find unhelpful in a debate. I don't think people who get who say that TERF is a slur can necessarily be won over in the short term. Who I do want to reach is people who may not be that engaged with this debate, who might think, oh, I've heard that women's rights are in opposition to trans rights. Maybe this is what I think. And then you say, actually, it's kind of easy to then have them be like, oh, no, I don't need to think that way. I don't know if you will engage other people. You'll have to tell have to tell me how I have to say I've won over at least one person

that's different about winning over but you let me know how many people come and come and share I suppose I'm interested in how we have better discussions that's why I do what I do and we wanted to hear from you uh this morning and I I think it's about also, which we haven't got onto and perhaps we can talk again, I suppose the real world consequences about having a very set view of the only people who are allowed to be a victim. It's not about worldviews, it's about how you handle being, for instance, called out.

Fine, but cancellation is where I was sort of trying to get to. There are real world consequences. We will have to leave it there. Okay, much more to say. You'll have to buy the book. Yeah, well, I've read it. I just wanted to say, as you did mention,

that you do know the professor that we've been talking about this morning, Dr. Koshka Duff. Please do send our best to her and do let her know that we've obviously discussed this morning. And please help with our invitation, if you didn't mind.

I'll always try and help get the best guests to talk to us. And Hannah Jewell, thank you very much for talking to us. The book is called We Need Snowflakes. And I just wanted to read a message that we got in from a retired policewoman. Julia says, I just want to say I could give you years of insults I received from both male and female members of the public, frequently involving sexuality as regarding my smell.

It seems to be common practice to use such terms to be as derogatory as possible and and more coming in with regards to the comments uh that you heard at the beginning of the program and all about your your sort of personal experiences and your feelings in response to it so i will come back to those as i come but i can't tell you an overwhelming response of feelings and memories it has prompted in you. Now, you may have heard of Six, the musical. The show is a modern retelling of the lives of the six wives of Henry VIII. They take turns in singing in a Britain's Got Talent style competition to see who suffered the most at his hands and should therefore become the group's lead singer. Get your head around that. Originally written by two Cambridge University students

and showcased at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in 2017, it's been delighting London's West End audiences and recently opened on Broadway. Lucy Moss is the co-writer and co-director of the show. And we're also going to talk to one of the stars in just a moment who plays Henry VIII's fifth wife, Catherine Howard, Shamaya Bob Eggby, excuse me, who's part of the brand new London cast. You may have also seen her play spectacularly. I did Tina Turner.

So we'll be talking to her in just a moment or being in Tina Turner rather. Lucy, you co-wrote Six with Toby Marlowe for the festival. Where did it come from? Well, it came kind of from a desire to uh address the kind of imbalance that we felt there was in musical theater in terms of meaty funny parts for women um so basically we were kind of looking for a sort of an idea that we could take to edinburgh with a sort of famous subject matter um that uh would have a famous group of women and we were like what who could that be oh the six wives, great. And then it kind of all snowballed from there.

And I really want to see this and it sounds like it's also quite uplifting, but of course the stories of those women are anything but. Yes, no, it's quite a tragic tale. But I think, yeah, the overwhelming audience response is one of joy. And I think it's because, I mean, the show, so it's a pop concert. So it is like pop music and it is a kind of tongue in cheek, playful use of their story.

And because it's so much more about the sort of intention behind it, it's so much more about empowerment and lifting each other up and sort of celebrating the amazing people that we're seeing on stage, as opposed to actually what literally happened. I feel like we've managed to find a way to make it not quite as depressing and also because it's sort of fun musical you can kind of rewrite history and change the ending indeed well let's have a little taste of the show listen up let me tell you a story a story that you think you've heard before we know you know our names and our fame and our faces Know all about the glories

And the disgraces Welcome to the show To the history mix Switching up the flow As we add the briefings Everybody knows That we used to be six Y

But now we're X,wives, very much so, and however the fate took them. Shamaya, good morning. Nice to have you on the programme. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Catherine Howard. Tell us, what happened to her again? Beheaded. That's the one. OK, I was trying to remember the rhyme from school. What drew you to this role? I just, I really love roles that are women

who have unexpected stories. They're really powerful, intelligent women, but also have vulnerability, which they try and manage. And the role was just, she's fun. If you've ever seen the show, Catherine Howard is really, really fun, tongue in cheek, and she just brings all the laughs. But also she has another layer to her that you don't expect. So I really love complicated roles.

So that's why I went for her. I also like this pop element to it. Is there a particular singer that you're you're channeling or that you've decided to try and think about when you're when you're belting your songs out? Yeah this is so the the character correct me if I'm wrong Lucy is based off Ariana and Britney in terms of the costumes and the style of the song but actually for me I actually had a session with Lucy and we thought I'm the first principal Black Kay Howard.

And I needed to relate the character to someone that I felt was more my vibe. And we actually thought, actually, who's really cool, but also like a pop princess. And I was like, Rihanna used to do that. You know what I mean? Back in the day. So actually my Catherine Howard is more based on Rihanna used to do that. You know what I mean? Back in the day. So actually my Catherine Howard

is more based on Rihanna. She's quite cool. She's actually effortlessly beautiful, stunning, but also very funny. And powerful. That's kind of what, and powerful. You know, she stops a room as soon as she walks in.

Yeah, well, I mean, and Rihanna's doing better than Catherine Howard in many ways. She's still out there. Yes, absolutely. I might not have mine after this programme. Who knows? All sorts of things happen.

But I know it's also really important for you, as you mentioned there, being a black actor in this, being a black performer, to make sure that we are seeing, certainly the audiences are seeing different people, different women taking that centre stage in these sorts of productions. tell us about that for you um our cast is one of the most diverse casts the audition process was actually mind-boggling I would walk into the room and I was so inspired by the people that we saw the trans women uh different women of color different heights sizes it was so beautiful

and even at that I was like I don't care if I get it everyone here's wonderful but then you were like I really want the role I mean you always kind of do where you kind of have to yeah of course and then we saw our cast and it's the same thing it's just a beautiful mix of women from different backgrounds and whenever we see children especially in the audience young girls it's like someone out there everyone can see a variation of who they are on stage and it's really beautiful to be a part of that and I bet you've had some lovely moments with audience members and sort of meeting them and seeing them I just yes I almost cry every night children are

just as soon as I see young women in the audience, young girls in the audience, I just get very emotional because that was me. Yes. Well, and also, I think, you know, just to come back to you, Lucy, I loved reading of your personal achievement, apart from this, of course, making you the youngest with this opening, six musical opening on Broadway in October at the end of last year. I mean, what a time for theatre as well during the pandemic. So it's a well done on that as well. But making you the youngest female director of a musical in Broadway history. Brilliant. Yeah, no, it's pretty, it's pretty wild. I mean, it says, I suppose, how old are you? Let's try and understand if there's been lots of young men until this point. Well, here's the thing. So I'm 28 now, but I was 26 at the time when we, when I, you know,

got that crown, as it were. And it was sort at the time when we when I you know got that crown as it were um and it was sort of the first sort of reaction is like oh my gosh I'm so fancy I'm so important youngest female director then you go wait hang on why is that and you look at how many men there were between the ages of 22 and 26 that had directed shows on Broadway and it was like oh yeah patriarchy right that's why it was just like so it's like a first quite like makes me feel kind of like I'm so fancy and then after that i'm like actually it's depressing yeah well there'll be many people who smash my record very soon someone's got to do it okay and and i'm happy to be talking to the person who has albeit with the inherent issues that we can take on uh while

while celebrating we could do both at the same time um i i'm very much looking forward to trying to to make my way to go and see it. Congratulations to you, Lucy, to the whole of the crew, to you, Shamaya. Keep bossing it, channeling Rihanna while you play

someone who was beheaded at the behest of our former leader, as it were, Henry VIII. And all the best to all of you for the continued run and for Broadway. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Thank you. I've had a very powerful message just before we go to our final discussion with regards to Dr Duff, this professor who's just won this case against the Metropolitan Police. And I read aloud the words that were said to her by police officers in 2013. Some of you getting in touch to point out there were women officers in that room. Yes, it was men who said it. There were women there. I've never said anything to the otherwise, but it is a man I am quoting. Just to be clear, when it was said, what's that smell?

Oh, it's her knickers. Is she rank? As I said, very much hope we can welcome her to the programme. But a message has come in, which I really want to share, saying, please allow me to be anonymous. I'm a serving male police officer. The treatment Dr Duff was subjected to was sickening. I am appalled. And unfortunately,

even nine years later, there still exists officers who would make comments like that. The only way we can change it is by calling out those who do wrong. Please keep highlighting behaviour like this. It might make my job harder in the short term,

but in the long term, the benefit will be a better police service. What a message and what a plea. Thank you very much to the gentleman who's messaged in. And you, of course, have remained anonymous, as we always ensure that you can be when you message in. And all the more powerful it is for that. Thank you very much indeed for that message. Well, recently, just to come back to something we have discussed before and very recently on the programme,

about skin, we talked about acne and also we've had a focus on lots of different skin conditions recently with a series you can catch back up with on Sounds. But there's a parliamentary debate being held later today on all skin conditions such as psoriasis, eczema, rosacea and their link, crucially, to poor mental health. The Conservative MP, Sir Edward Lee, has tabled the debate which is being held in Westminster Hall.

He's the chair of the all-party parliamentary group On Skin. He himself is suffering from rosacea. Sir Edward joins me now from Westminster and also a word from the consultant dermatologist, Dr Penelope Pratts, who speaks on behalf of the British Skin Foundation. Sir Edward Lee, good morning. I'm hoping we have you there.

Good morning. Hello. Hello. Thank you for joining us. Just for you yourself, you have rosacea. How has it impacted you? Well, rosacea is a disease. I mean, there are many, many worse skin diseases. I'm not complaining about it. It's a sort of grown-up acne.

I've had it all my life. I take antibiotics every day and strong creams. It makes your face bright red, of course, and then it can gradually, if it does not treat it, disfigure you. So, of course, it impacts you. And the purpose of my debate this afternoon, why I've called it as a chairman of the all-party group, is to make the link between mind and skin.

And the fact is that our psychological support of skin disease sufferers which is about 60 percent of the population is extremely poor in this country and if you uh don't look after the mind the skin can get worse if a skin gets worse the mind can get worse and a lot of people suffer very considerably from skin disease from itching from discomfort and of course some skin diseases like cancers are fatal but of course it's the visual thing also which particularly for young people is very bad for psychological health yes and and just to bring you in dr penelope and to mention rosacea the condition sir edward suffers, it's actually more common amongst women.

But that link between the mind and skin, do you think we've taken that seriously enough? Hello, I think this is an ongoing problem. is being taken seriously enough, to be honest, that unfortunately, even us healthcare professionals are guilty of sometimes being a bit too dismissive of people with skin conditions. And even Sarah Dordley said, oh, it's just rosacea, there's a lot worse going on. But actually, you know, skin is important. Skin conditions are actually more than skin deep because they do affect people's mental health and well-being. So until we have more education on the matter, both in terms of the public, but actually really healthcare professionals as well, this will probably carry on. And what are you hoping for, Edward? What do you want to change today? Because some people may not have even known

there was an all-party parliamentary group on skin. Well, what I'm hoping to change in this debate in Westminster Hall this afternoon is to try and convince the government and the NHS that they should take dermatology more seriously. And the minister has to reply. We had a debate before. I think it made a bit of a difference. The fact is dermatology more seriously and the minister has to reply we had a debate before i think it made a bit of a difference the fact is dermatology has always been the cinderella service

uh in uh in the nhs i mean for instance we have no psycho psychological dermatology consultants or even service at all in lincolnshire the county that I represent in Parliament. So the purpose of this debate is to try and convince NHS bosses that skin really matters and mental health really matters. So it's all about drawing attention to the issue. It's small steps. I agree the NHS is in a difficult position at the time, but frankly, the present situation has been made much worse by the pandemic. For instance instance one colleague you will now want to speak this debate that i've called came up to me uh last night he said he's got a very painful skin condition and believe it or not his gp said you've got to wait a year a year to even get close to a consultant that's the position we're in. In the whole of Wales, in the whole of Wales, there is not a single dedicated psychological dermatologist available for the public.

So let's just draw attention to this issue. Skin is important for 60 percent of our population who suffer from skin disease and so many respondents to our report our report for the all parties skin group was actually written by very experienced people in the british dermatology association our report showed that a huge number of people who suffer skin disease has do have psychological problems yes well i have to say sadly some are even driven to suicide it's that important we will follow up on this sir Sir Edward Lee. Dr. Penelope Pratts, thank you for your time. And thank you, listening, for all of your messages.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.