Woman's Hour - Skin-lightening creams

Episode Date: June 29, 2020

Last week Johnson & Johnson announced it will cease production on two lines of skin-lightening products sold in countries across Asia and the Middle East. At the same time, Unilever, who own the skin-lightening cream Fair & Lovely, have announced that they will change the product’s name. How significant are these moves? And why does the skin-lightening industry continue to be so popular, despite the dangers and controversy? Nimmi Dosanjh is Indian-Kenyan and light-skinned. Her 11 year old daughter is dark-skinned. Geeta Pandey is the Editor of BBC News Online, India Women and Social Affairs. Linasha Kotalawala is a lifestyle and beauty blogger.Over the next few days we’re going to be looking at women and gaming - the stereotype that only adolescent boys play video games doesn’t tally with the figures, which show women make up almost 50 per cent of those that play. And, women over 40 are among the fastest growing group of people who regularly engage in smartphone, video, or computer games. Our reporter, Lotta Haegg, a gamer herself, has been speaking to women who are changing the culture of the industry and refusing to accept the stereotypes. Rhianna Pratchett is a video game writer and journalist.Panama implemented a state-enforced lockdown to combat the spread of COVID-19 which was sex-segregated. In this, women are allowed out of the house on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and men on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. On these days, individuals were only able to go to the supermarket or pharmacy. Clare Wenham, Assistant Professor in Global Health Policy at the London School of Economics and Political Science tells us how it worked out.Four single mothers have launched legal proceedings against the government over the child maintenance support system which they say is failing them and their children. The women are being supported by the campaign group Gingerbread – Victoria Benson is their Chief Executive. Natalie has struggled to get maintenance payments for her sons for the last five years. But first we speak to Selaine Saxby, Conservative MP for North Devon and a member of the Work and Pensions Select Committee.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Nimmi Dosangh Interviewed Guest: Geeta Pandey Interviewed Guest: Linasha Kotalawala Interviewed Guest: Rhianna Pratchett Reporter: Lotta Haegg Interviewed Guest: Clare Wenham Interviewed Guest: Selaine Saxby Interviewed Guest: Victoria Benson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Monday the 29th of June 2020. A very good morning to you. Welcome to a brand new week. We're up here live, up and running, and we'd love to hear from you at BBC Woman's Hour on social media or you can email the programme via our website.

And today we're asking, is the Child Maintenance service working for you? Four single parents are starting legal proceedings against the government. They say the CSM has failed them and is continuing to do so. We'll have a big conversation about that a little bit later in the programme.

But if that's something you've got personal experience of, let us know how you're getting on. You can email us via our website. In Panama, the COVID-19 lockdown was sex segregated. How does that work? That's for later in the programme. And we're also talking about women and gaming. But first this morning, Johnson & Johnson has announced

it's going to stop making lines of skin lightening products sold in countries across Asia and the Middle East. and Johnson has announced it's going to stop making lines of skin lightening products sold in countries across Asia and the Middle East. At the same time, Unilever, who own the skin lightening cream Fair and Lovely, have announced they're going to change the name of the product. So what's going on here? How significant are these decisions? And why does this industry continue to be so popular, despite the dangers and the controversy? Well, we'll talk to Geeta Pandey, who's the editor of BBC News Online, Women and Social Affairs. She is in our studio in Delhi this morning. We'll also be joined by Nimmi Desange, who is of Indian heritage and

lives in Worcester. And Dinesha Katalawa is a beauty and lifestyle blogger from London, and they'll take part in this conversation as well. Tagita, first of all, this is a big, big business, isn't it? Huge amounts of money are involved here. Well, yes, Fair and Lovely is really, really huge. And, you know, I think this is probably, you know, one of the biggest products that Unilever has in this country. It's, you know, just this product is estimated to be more than $317 million, right? I mean, you know, if you look at it, millions of creams of Fair and Lovely sell in the country every month, you know, and it's really popular. It's bought in, you know, bought in like, you know, in big cities, in small towns, in rural India. It's just everywhere. And what does it claim to do?

Well, you know, it's, you know, it's in the name, right? It claims to make you fair and lovely, right? But, you know, it was launched in India in the 1970s. And it's been hugely popular since then. So they placed the or they, you know, they offered the product as a fairness cream. But they also put the, they tried to put the message across through a series of ads over the years. And all these ads, which generally had like some of India's biggest actors and actresses, would be about, you know, like somebody who had a duskier skin. And then she used Fair and Lovely and she got either the preferred job that she wanted or she got the promotion or she got the man of her choice that she wanted to marry. So it was, you know, it was that kind of messaging which was given out that, you know, if you're fair, you are a winner. If you're not,

you basically have no place. I mean, this is making people squirm all over the place, I'm quite sure for very good reason. It was always a pretty diabolical message right now it sounds positively horrific so little wonder Geeta that this decision has been made. Well yes I think you know it was essentially sort of you know had to do with what is happening in the United States and the Black Lives Matter campaign. So, you know, and what Johnson & Johnson did, that kind of really forced the hand of Unilever in India, because they were, in fact, their CEO and a whole lot of other people were trolled quite a bit on Twitter. And a lot of people pointed out that, you know, I mean, you know, do not just pay lip service to race relations, right? Or,

you know, to the importance of skin colour by, you know, sort of selling a product, which actually goes against everything that, you know, that one would want to stand for. Well, quite. I should say I have a statement from Unilever. their president of beauty and personal care, says we are fully committed to having a global portfolio of skincare brands that are inclusive and care for all skin tones, celebrating greater diversity of beauty. We recognise that the use of the words fair, white and light suggest a singular ideal of beauty that we don't think is right and we want to address this this brand has never been and is not a bleaching product and johnson and johnson they say conversations over

the past few weeks highlighted that some product names or claims on our neutrogena and clean and clear dark spot reducer products represent fairness or white as better than your own unique skin tone. This was never our intention. Healthy skin is beautiful skin. But what we need to make clear is Unilever are changing the name. Geeta, they're not actually changing the product, are they? Well, they haven't said anything about that. All that they've said is that they're going to drop the name, drop the word fair from the name, and that they are going to change the name and that the new name is in the process of getting approvals. And that is why they have been criticized a fair bit with a lot of campaigner who are a lot of campaigners who have been, you know, campaigning against these types of skin lightening creams. They have been

saying that, you know, it is still a fairness cream, no matter what they call it. It doesn't matter really, you know, because if the product is the same, the ingredients are the same, then it's the same thing. Well, thank you very much for that.

That's Gita in our office in Delhi. We should say that it's very naive to think that these products are not available in the UK, but the NHS says this, skin lightening creams containing hydroquinone, corticosteroids or mercury not prescribed by a doctor are banned in the UK because they can cause serious side effects if used incorrectly. That's the official NHS advice. Linasha Katawala, listening to that, it is really, it's very discomforting, isn't it? This is deeply unpleasant stuff.

It truly is. And as a darker skinned South Asian woman, I continuously face this on an everyday basis. This is what I go through. And this is what I face through and this is what I face and the fact that things like lightening creams and bleaching creams are constantly pushed right onto my face and so many women feel pressured to use them. Well, what Gita outlined at the beginning there about some of the really unpalatable views of people. What you're saying is that, unfortunately,

some of those views are still out there and still having an impact. Oh, completely. I don't think anything has changed for the last decade or so. I still believe that colourism is absolutely rife and we're going through movements like right now through understanding racism and capitalism and anti-blackness and colorism, but it's still out there.

Nimmi, you have a daughter who is, well, about to be 11. Yes. And you are of Indian heritage. You're light-skinned. Your daughter is dark-skinned. And we should say that you have had conversations with your daughter about this. This is something you've discussed in the house. Just tell me a little bit about that.

Well, see, I don't even, I don't even... I wouldn't even say she was dark-skinned. I'll just say she's got lovely brown skin. She's herself, isn't she? Yeah, it's never been a conversation that we've had. We don't discuss it in those terms. I have... Oh, no, I hope we haven't lost Nimmy, because that's really important.

Nimmy, are you there? Hello? Hi, Nimmy, are you there? Hello? Hi, Nimmi, carry on. Can you hear me? Hi. Yeah, we don't discuss it in that context of she's got darker skin than me. I would say the only reason it's come up is because it has been commented on from other people.

Who are these people? Well, just it's noted. I mean, when people say, oh, she doesn't look like you, does she? I know what they mean by that. It was commented on when she was very small. Whoever said it, my husband and I, we dealt with them immediately. But I just believe, like I can hear it in Linasha's voice. It makes me so sad.

It actually makes me really angry because the origins of these belief systems that exist in our community come from a place of racism and prejudice and assuming that darker skinned people are primitive, less successful. And it is an awful by-product of British colonialism, actually. So when we discuss this issue, we have to, we're confronting something

that is so ingrained in our community, even here. I know it's, I think, I feel like it's a much bigger industry in India. I personally don't know anybody that's used these nonsense creams, but it's still an issue. So with my own child, I have spent her 11 years counteracting the comments that she might have taken on. And luckily, because of the BLM movement, we've talked about these things now, and it's led to people thinking everybody's been sort of, they're stirred a want to change things.

And one person living in Bromsgrove, a really, really white town by the way um thinking what can I do to challenge prejudice in any way I think we can all have those uncomfortable conversations with our own families and our own our own communities and just try and change the mindset and most I often I do believe that people in our elder community or whoever you're having to deal with who has that belief system, they genuinely don't know the root of it. And if they understood where this comes from, they would surely want to change it. Thankfully, my daughter, she loves her skin.

She loves the fact that I've encouraged her to love it. I'm constantly trying to get a tan. Anybody who knows me knows that I'm obsessed with being browner than I naturally am. So she... Until this conversation came up about three weeks ago, I can tell you she was completely... She had no clue that it was even a topic. So I think I felt really quite emotional about it

because I was like I she it hasn't touched her she you know to this point in her life it hasn't affected her and I had to counteract it the whole time to make sure that it didn't so I've been protecting her from this and I hope that that I can build strength in her that even if she does come across it and I'm sure she will at some point, from somebody else where she's older, she's got the strength and the knowledge to stick up for herself. Yeah. Linasha, what would you want to say to Nimmi? I would say that I am so glad that someone who is lighter skinned and a mother

actually cares about the effects of colourism and the psychological effects of colorism on their child because I it's so rare like I rarely see South Asians who are very open to speak about this conversation or speak about uncomfortable topics like this and uh have the strength to do so and I'm really really proud of that. Oh, Linasha, I wish I could. Sorry, am I cutting you off? No, you carry on.

No, no. No, I, listen, having these conversations, again, I made a statement like, yeah, go out there and have this conversation with the people around you that either hold those belief systems. And they're indoctrinated, by the way. They're not even aware of why they feel that way i think no one really questions it but they're not comfortable conversations i can tell you that they're not popularity winning contests they're often met with a lot of resistance and people become very defensive but over time you if those relationships matter, people will have that conversation with you. And I think you have to show, I think the BLM movement has stirred something up, and I think you have to show that you are an active ally against any prejudice, and where you want to feel like you can change the whole world we often feel like we can't but what we can do is start those conversations in your own communities again and

just hope that if you live with integrity and you call out racism colorism any sort of prejudice when you see it it doesn't always need to be confrontational but i think with south asian parents it often is or not even just parents, just anybody. Anybody that doesn't like being challenged. Not always parents. Thank you both. You should come to India for that. Oh, I'd love to.

I think the three of you, I know, have got a lot more to say to each other, I'm sure. And perhaps you can carry on that conversation. We'll see if we can facilitate that. But thank you. I really appreciate all And perhaps you can carry on that conversation. We'll see if we can facilitate that. But thank you. I really appreciate all three of you taking part this morning. Nimu Desange, Linasha Katalawa and Geeta Pandey, who is in the BBC's office in Delhi.

And any thoughts on that from you, of course, warmly welcome at BBC Women's Hour on social media or email us via our website. Now, over the next couple of days on the programme, we're going to be looking at women and gaming. Now, the old stereotype, I'm not even going to repeat it, but you know what it is. But the truth is, women make up almost 50% of players,

and women over 40 are increasingly likely to play games on phone, video or computer. Our reporter Lotta Haig is a gamer herself, and she's been talking to women who are changing the culture of the industry. Rhianna Pratchett is a video game writer and journalist. And first you're going to hear from Sam Goldsmith from Leeds. I don't really understand why people sneer a little bit at the fact that you're a gamer.

I always have been and probably always will be. I never really thought that games were for boys. The kind of women I saw in fantasy and sci-fi and horror, I think really shaped my perspective on what women could do and what they could be at a young age. And so I kind of went into an industry where I could do that. And I got to work on Noriko and Kai in Heavenly Sword or Faith in Mirror's Edge or Lara in Tomb Raider and actually be able to shape female characters to be hopefully for this generation what kind

of Sarah Connor or Ellen Ripley were for me back then. My name's Sam. I'm 50 years old and I've been playing video games since I was 12. I was gifted a Commodore 64. I wasn't expecting it. I hadn't asked for it and I absolutely loved it from that moment forward. It's not a common present to get for a girl at that age. Who gave it to you? It was my father and he's always kind of made an effort in his own way to make sure that I was able to experience anything regardless of my gender. I think he wanted a boy originally maybe. If I mention that I am a gamer, it often is met with a bit of shock.

It's just something that is a stereotype. When you get to your 40s and 50s, you start to concern yourself a little less with what the world thinks of you. It seems an ideal time to almost take up playing video games, doesn't it? Yes, I thoroughly recommend it. Each game is like a different world. So it's almost like you get a vacation every time you log in. I particularly enjoy playing games where there's a world to explore and it's quite an open, free, wandering type world or where I can be particularly creative and maybe I don't get out of games what people traditionally think of games which is that you run around hectically shooting people live online.

I don't play that sort of games, and there's such a massive range of games that I think perhaps when they are shocked that I'm a gamer, it's because they're thinking of the gaming world as one particular thing, and it's not. I am Dr Jo Twist, and I am the Chief Exec of UK Interactive Entertainment, which is the trade body representing UK games businesses across the UK. It's funny because I think there's still a lot of perceptions that prevail in society about who plays games and actually the stats show that the average age globally is in their mid-30s. I am 46. I'm that generation that I had Pong prescribed to me by my optician as a child. In 1978, they were told, you know, buy this and make her play it

using her bad eye because I had a squint. So games have just always been part of my life. And I think there's a lot of misconceptions. I don't use the term gamer precisely because that comes with a lot of baggage. People assume a gamer is some socially awkward teenage boy in their basement still, which just simply isn't the case. The stats show that the fastest growing demographic for people who play games is actually women over 40. And that's kind of global. A lot of that's to do with the kinds of games, maturity of the medium, kinds of stories and characters that we're now seeing, but also the games that you get on mobile and tablet phones, which makes it much more accessible and you can pick up and play anywhere.

I know the world's changing place, but we're not in charge. And in a game, you can be whatever you want, and you are. You are godlike. I think also it combats some loneliness, especially in the online games where you can basically have whole groups of friends that get together and chat. You can do it by voice, it doesn't have to just be typing, so it is quite personal.

It's like an extended phone call, really really with a lot of people all at once so there's a lot of social aspects if you're into raiding and so on which are the big online game encounters where you fight a big boss together it can actually be great for communication skills and learning how to kind of lead which a lot of women don't have the chance of experiencing that in real life. There's a positive psychology to playing video games in that you understand how to fail and succeed, fail and succeed, you try again and try again but you're trying again in these worlds where you're not going to be judged for failing or if you do fail there's something fun in trying to

pick it up and start again and I think that's one of the attractions for me with video games is I never really got to try out failing anywhere in my life and I found video games a great refuge for that. Yeah there are some games where you get to play a goody or a baddy. I really enjoy those games in that you can kind of experiment with well if I do this what are the consequences of that and you can't get that in real life. Well you can but it's pretty dangerous. You could go to jail. We are seeing a lot more games telling different kinds of stories with different kinds of characters more strong female or or non-binary characters and that is something that is really coming through in the industry now women are traditionally introduced into video games by somebody in

their life a family member a son a father or a child i would encourage women to just go and find a gamer group on a facebook profile and just type in hi i've never played video games before i'm 45 what should i start with there would be hundreds and hundreds of responses there's probably someone in their life that's playing games or maybe has a son or daughter that's playing games that could could kind of teach them once you're sort of familiar with console layout or a mobile game to start off with once you've got over that barrier to entry that that's it you've got so many wonderful experiences that are out there for you so many places to go so many people to be

what type of games do you play i like like open world games, so my favourite games of all time are the Fallout games and Skyrim, for example. Minecraft, at the moment I'm playing one called Seven Days to Die. I like to mod games as well so that they do different things and you can re-experience them. I like the storyline, but I also like to tick that little geeky box which is the collection things. I do like to collect and organise things and I think it just scratches that itch. I love that geeky box. I think we've all got one of those. Sam Goldsmith was the last speaker there. You also heard from Rhianna Pratchett and Dr Joe Twist. And tomorrow we're talking about gaming and mental and physical health.

This is an email from Hannah who says, I'm 32 and I consider myself a gamer. I think the reason more women are getting into gaming is that the industry is finally changing and becoming more inclusive. Gamers like me who've been playing for years have been used to the highly sexualised, half-naked and often victimised female characters in video games. Grand Theft Auto springs to mind, she says. But there has been a change for the better and games now feature playable female characters with depth, engaging personality and interesting storylines. A good example would be Cassandra from AC Odyssey,

who's generally considered to be a better character than her male counterpart, Alexius. Also of note is the new game The Last of Us Part II, which features a female lesbian protagonist, and she isn't a male fantasy. She's a young woman who just happens to be gay. Thanks for that, Hannah. And from Grace, she says she's 86, lives alone and plays Bridge Online. For

five days a week, two hours sessions with members of the club, I would attend in normal times. If the games are close and we win, it's a great boost she says. If we lose, it just gives me the determination to do it better next time. And the banter in the chat usually gives me a laugh as well.

Grace, thank you for that. You can email us via the website anytime you like. Tomorrow on the programme, I'm going to be talking to Dawn Bilbre, who is the ICU nurse from York. You'll remember Dawn. She united the whole country in the very early stages of lockdown with that incredibly emotive video, pleading with people to stop panic buying.

So Dawn Bilbre, you won't have forgotten her, she's on the programme tomorrow. Now in Panama, they did lockdown a bit differently. In fact, I think it's up and running, unfortunately, in Panama again. They did it by doing it in a sex segregated way. Women were allowed out of the house on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, men on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Claire Wenham is Assistant Professor in Global Health Policy at the London School of Economics and Political Science. So Claire, why did they decide to do it this way in Panama? Good morning. Well, so what they decided to do in Panama was they wanted to reduce overall circulation of people, right? And they thought the easiest way to do this was

if they divided the population into half and doing that by sex seemed the most straightforward way of doing that. And that meant that people, that you would only at most have at least half your population out any one day. So they were just trying to use it as a public health measure. And so they then divided it up, as you said, by men going out on certain days and women going out on certain days. This was obviously with the exception of key workers who were able to go out every day. And again, people were only allowed to go out to the grocery store and to pharmacists. Right. Did any other country in the world even think of doing this? Yeah. So Peru started this at the same time, which was at the beginning of April. But within a week, the Peruvian government decided it was increasing inequalities between sex. And so they actually ended the policy saying it was actually increasing inequalities and to women and that they were required to do more of the of the of the household work more of the going out to the grocery stores where there was anecdotal evidence of long lines outside shops on on female days and not on male days

and so this uh led them to think actually this wasn't the most effective way of doing this and they didn't want to to add burden to women as opposed to men. Interestingly, Bogota as a city also implemented this policy. And that was relatively straightforward for them. But it wasn't replicated across the whole of the country in Colombia. Okay, it's just fascinating stuff this. So in Panama, are we now to assume it worked reasonably well with some kind of solution? So what was really interesting, and the research we've done on this has shown that overall, it reduced people on the street. So it worked from a social distancing perspective. However, what we've demonstrated in our research is that actually people were going out more on

men's days and not on women's days. And this really surprised us because we thought it would be the opposite. And this was the opposite to what they saw in Peru. And obviously, we don't know why this is. We don't know why it was busier on men's days than female days. So from what we can assume, in Panama, men went out more on their days. Yes. Yeah. But we don't know why. And we don't know, were they, I don't know, why do you think that might be the case? Well, so we have a couple of ideas. One might be that simply women are better at lockdown than men. We know in other areas of public health,

we know women are better at hand washing and sort of sanitisation. And so maybe women are better adhering to social distancing than men. Is it that actually going to the shops becomes a new form of household bargaining with this? And actually, when you've got nothing else to do, this becomes the one thing that everyone wants to do. And it shows more that there is this divide between the public and the private, and that men are able to go out and women have to stay at home? Or is it that actually women were so busy with everything else? They were looking after the kids, performing all the other domestic tasks in the house that they weren't able to go out as well on top of that. We don't know which one of these

it is, but we think it raises a lot of broader questions for women in Panama and for sex segregated policies more generally. So the lockdown, I think, was lifted, but now it's been imposed again in Panama. Yeah, so the sex segregated policy was relinquished as part of their exit strategy. But within a week, they saw the numbers creeping up again. And so they have re-implemented it in Panama back to where they were to make sure that the numbers don't creep up.

Right, and really briefly, Claire, did people object to the sex segregation version of lockdown? Did it cause any controversy at all or do people just think, OK, well, why not? It did. And it was two key groups. So the first group that was very worried about this was gender based violence advocates who thought that actually women being kept in the home and not being able to go out on any day might be a risk to women. And also from the trans rights groups who felt that a gender identity wasn't being included in the sex segregation policy. Right. Thank you very much. That's a fascinating bit of

current sociology, isn't it? Fantastic. Claire Wenham, Assistant Professor, I apologise, in Global Health Policy at the LSE about what's been going on in Panama. Now, back home, four single mothers have started legal proceedings against the government over the Child Maintenance Support System, which they say, quite simply, is failing them and their children. The Child Maintenance Service was set up back in 2012. It replaced the much maligned Child Support Agency. That closed, with single parents still owed millions. Victoria Benson is the Chief Executive of Gingerbread, which is supporting the women.

Natalie has struggled to get maintenance payments for her children for the last five years. And in a moment, we'll talk to Selene Saxby, who's a Tory MP for North Devon and a member of the Work and Pensions Select Committee. Natalie and Victoria first of all good morning to you. Morning. Morning. Victoria let's start with you. Why do you think a judicial review is needed here? So Gingerbread have decided to support this case very much as a last resort. We hear from so many

single parents who are desperate and have really struggled with the CMS and we hear so many heartbreaking stories because they're simply not receiving the payments they are due and at the end of the day it's the payments are due to the children and leaves many in poverty. So as a last resort we're supporting this case because we feel that the government department is failing in its responsibilities to single parents and really needs to be held to account. Remind us a little bit of the history. The Child Support Agency was, well, it was notorious, wasn't it?

Yes. So the CMS replaced the Child Support Agency in around 2012. And at that time, there was close to, it was about 3.8 billion of arrears due for the Child Support Agency. And since that time, the CMS was heralded as a much, as an improved system. But in fact, it's much the same. So over the last eight years or so, around 354 million is owed in arrears. Right. I mean, that is a colossal amount of money. Natalie, we don't want to invade your privacy too much, but can you tell us a little bit about your personal story?

Yeah, I was seven months pregnant with our second child when the relationship ended. And since then, I've had a five-year battle to try to get any kind of contribution made towards my son's upbringing. We had a period of nearly two years where he didn't pay a penny. For the last eight months, my children haven't received a penny off their father. And the problem with this situation is that the children who are the most vulnerable members of our society are being let down twice first by a parent who won't put their

hand in their pocket to contribute towards the basics you know we're not talking about luxuries here we're talking about things like helping to keep a roof over their head food on the table clothes on their backs and then the organization that exists solely and only to help children when they're being failed by a parent, being absolutely incompetent. You know, they just don't do anything. They have huge powers at their disposal. I read the other day that one of the powers they have, which is the removal of passports, there were only seven occasions that was used in a period of one year.

And apparently the Child Maintenance Service say they will only use that power in the most extreme circumstances. Well, let me just put that point to Victoria Benson. Do you know of cases where parents have had their passports taken away? Victoria? I don't think Victoria can hear me. So let's actually put that point to our Conservative MP, Selene Saxby, who is a member of the Work and Pensions Select Committee. Selene, thanks for joining us. Good morning to you. Natalie, really frustrated there, and you can understand it.

Why do you think the Child Maintenance Service isn't using the full weight of its powers? I think in fairness, they are. And these are obviously terribly sad and difficult cases. And the department have introduced tough powers, as you've referenced, to ensure children do receive the support they deserve. And in the three months to March this year, 70% of child maintenance through collecting pay was taken.

So it is working to an extent, but I do recognise that there is room for improvement. Well, it's working to the extent that 30% of the kids are not getting their payments. Yes, and that is obviously where work is. It's a lot of children. No, and I'm not disputing that. It is still a lot of children, but the majority of the debt that is being pursued is historic debt rather than current. But, you know, I understand what Natalie is saying.

And it is a case that, you know, these things do need to be looked at. And I'm sure steps will be taken to review and improve the system. Victoria Benson, I think you're back with us now. We had a reference there from Selene Saxby, the Conservative MP, about collect and pay. There are two ways of getting money, aren't there, via the CMS. It's either direct pay or collect and pay. Can you just explain the difference? Yes. So parents are directed initially to direct pay, which is more of a voluntary arrangement where they arrange between them to pay money via the CMS. For many parents, that doesn't work

because there's simply too many issues and they struggle to be changed to collect pay so that they can arrange for the CMS to collect the money for them. And for many single parents, that works much better because it avoids all the conflict that's inherent in their relationship in many cases. Right. And Selene Saxby says that she believes that the CMS does have sufficient powers and is indeed using them. But Natalie was concerned that, in fact, from what she can gather, very few passports, for example, have been withdrawn. What do you say about that? So we know that last year, three passports were withdrawn and six people got sent to prison. So those that obviously the prison is the most critical power that the CMS could use, but it's failing to do it.

And three passports in a whole year is quite frankly really, really poor. Selene Saxby, what about that? As I said, the powers are there to be used. Yeah, but they're not being used. That's the point. Well, prosecutions are taking place and maybe not as many as perhaps people would hope for. But I recognise that through these difficult situations, people do want to work in a conciliatory way to try and actually enable parents like Natalie to receive the money that they are entitled to, their children deserve. And really, it's down to individuals to really be making those payments.

And I very much hope the Child Maintenance Service will continue to actually use the powers that they have. Well, let's make a perfectly reasonable point there. Victoria Benson, the child maintenance service may be in some cases somewhat inefficient. That's what it's been accused of. But it's the individual parents who are fundamentally the problem here? Yes. One of the points of the case is that the parents are not able to pursue payment separately because they're bound by the CMS. So their only right is via the CMS. So that's the first point. But yes, I suppose fundamentally, the issue at the root of all of this is that it is the parents' duty to make payments. If they're the non-resident parent, it's their duty to make the payment.

And underlying all of this is that in many cases, the resident parent isn't receiving any money. And of course, they need that money to feed and clothe their children. So that is the fundamental issue. Something that certainly has cropped up, I know, in other cases, and it's a question put by a listener on Twitter. She says, how can we ensure that self-employed fathers don't manipulate their earnings and do make payments consummate with their actual earnings? What do you say about that, Victoria?

Well, we hear all the time of many non-resident parents who go self-employed in order to avoid making payments, or at least that's what the resident parents believe. And too many non-resident parents do get away with evading and avoiding payment. And we hear that from so many parents. Now, actually, Cathy said, Cathy was our tweeter, she referenced fathers. Of course, not all non-resident parents are fathers, but statistically, the overwhelming majority of Victoria are, aren't they? Yes, more than 90% of resident parents are women. And the higher proportion of that go through the CMS. So it's around 94% of resident parents in

the CMS are women. So, you know, it's predominantly men who are not paying for their children. Natalie, what does this do to you? It doesn't do a lot for your self-worth, does it really, all this? No, it's an absolute living hell. I just can't describe the effect that it has on my family. family we're a low-income household and once i've paid uh to keep a roof over our head we have 121 pounds a month to live off which breaks down to around four pounds a day for three people so um the money the the financial contribution from my children's father is you know absolutely crucial the opportunities and advantages that other children enjoy my my sons just do not have those another problem with the child maintenance service that if you have a committed non-payer as we do in our case where they won't put their hand in their pocket if you are moved on to the collect and pay service um the children

actually penalized by having four percent of any money removed before it hits um them i actually wrote to the child maintenance service about this and i got a letter back saying that basically i shouldn't complain it was a few pounds well if you're living off four pounds it's significant yeah to pay for absolutely you know that's bills that's food that's everything then it's beyond insulting to be told that oh it's only a few pounds don't moan about it um the the time the days i have wasted trying to get some sort of action from the child maintenance service on our case. The only time I ever received anything like action was when I involved my MP and I was promised all sorts of things and it just doesn't materialise. Right. Celine Saxby, I imagine you've got a

constituency office. I bet you do hear stories like this yourself, don't you? We do have occasional ones, but they are infrequent. And I think I'd also like to take the opportunity to highlight office i bet you do hear stories like this yourself don't you we do have occasional ones um but they are infrequent and i think i'd also like to take the opportunity to highlight that the child maintenance payment is part of an overall package to support families with children and a lot of money is available at this very difficult time recognizing the changing nature of all sorts of families with an extra 63 million going to local authorities that can be called upon but those in the greatest need. But you've just heard Natalie outlining her situation.

She's getting by with basically just a few quid a day to spare, to spend. It's diabolical. And again, the onus is with the absent parent to be paying and for the child maintenance service to be chasing. All I was referencing is that there are additional benefits available to families who find themselves in difficult circumstances which have been increased in recent times to make sure children do get the opportunities in life that they need so do you believe that this judicial review will lead to real change in the child maintenance service um i i'm not in a position obviously to comment on the individual case

um but I do think as with most systems that there is room for improvement and I hope that will be forthcoming for families like Natalie's. That was the Conservative MP Selene Saxby. You also heard from Victoria Benson the Chief Executive of Gingerbread and from Natalie. Now I think we'll start with your emails on that subject. Quite a few of them, because to put it mildly, this is an emotive area, isn't it? Excellent news, says this tweeter. A stressful waste of time, even with the MP's involvement. The Child Maintenance Service is ruining children's lives.

Wayward parents need to stop fiddling their income. Just pay what you owe. Another listener says the CMS have failed my two children badly. My ex earns £50,000 a year and although initially the service ordered him to pay, his employer assisted him to set up a limited company and filter half his wages from his employer through the company to avoid paying any maintenance fees. I had to use a food bank to feed my children, even though I am working. The CMS told me they investigated, but nothing was done. And they go off his now reduced wage slips and say he doesn't earn enough to pay. Despite the fact that he still has the same

money coming in, although now some goes through his limited company. He has several holidays a year, yet they let him get away with it. Well, that's a sort of complicated story, and I don't know whether... Clearly, that shouldn't be allowed to happen, but in the case of that emailer, it appears to be going on. Yet another lady waiting over three years for child support, now topping £10,000, says this email.

We're at enforcement, nothing happens, he just makes up a story of poverty. Yet the extravagance of his lifestyle remains unchanged. The hands of the CMS are tied and I feel for them. I can only thank them for doing as much as they're allowed. I now have to use my small pension but then get penalised by losing Universal Credit and I'm caught in a vicious cycle.

God knows what will happen when I'm retired. Why should my son not have good food and a roof over his head and a PS4 just like everyone else? I just go without and so I can't go out. Another listener just listening to your piece about child maintenance and my blood is boiling, at least these women have the potential to get something. What about the women whose exes are in prison? They get all their meals and they're bored but their exes and their children are entitled to nothing. When my breadwinner husband was arrested one night, then later sentenced, there was no government financial support apart from the usual universal credit. His salary stopped overnight. It was like he died, but with no financial safety net. I can't be alone in my circumstances, but luckily I do have

some family support. Yeah, there were some very troubling experiences there. And I should say, we did also have emails from people pointing out, as indeed we did during the conversation, that not all non-resident parents are men. That is true. They're not. But the overwhelming majority of non-resident parents involved in these child maintenance cases are male, as was pointed out during the conversation. 94%, in fact, are non-resident male parents. But absolutely, I appreciate women do still leave children and leave relationships and marriages. Now, we began the programme today with a conversation about skin lightening creams. Laurie tweeted to say, Asian women talking about colourism, one woman challenging

members of her own community on the subject. I thought this was a great piece. My daughter's complexion is darker than mine. We talk about shade and I like to think she hasn't let cruel messages dent her sense of self. Well, I would hope not too. And this is an email from Angela who says, I lived and worked in Bangladesh, mainly in education for 14 years. I was principal of the British school, among other positions, and almost all my pupils were Bangladeshi Muslims. While I was principal at the British school, among other positions, and almost all my pupils were Bangladeshi Muslims. While I was teaching in Bangladeshi schools, the situation with skin colour was shocking. Parents would say to their children, I don't think we'll be able to find a nice husband for you, you're so dark. The skin whitening salons were busy and some women who overdid it looked awful, artificially white.

I used to do an assembly at least once a year on the absurdity of the situation. From Anne, I'm always horrified when I see the huge hoardings advertising these creams on motorways and on sale in Malaysia. Malaysian women, like for example my daughter-in-law, are beautiful as they are and simply don't need these products. And this from Sabah who says, I come from Iran which was never colonized by the Europeans. Even in poems from 700 years ago, there is a standard of beauty which implies that whiter skin is more beautiful. I always assumed it was because it was rarer. I have grown up thinking I shouldn't get too tanned and seeing that lighter skin is valued. I'm not sure where this ancient colourism comes from but I don't believe it's from colonialism.

To the subject of women and gaming, Louise says if all of these women are so pro-women in gaming and blasting the stereotype, why are they allowing for all women characters to be designed as unrealistic ideals? Big breasts, tiny waist, perfect skin, provocatively dressed. One of your speakers has explained she's involved in the design. So why is the design being allowed to continue in this manner? Well, I take it, Louise, that certainly in the past that was true. But as one of our emailers pointed out in the course of the programme, things do appear, mercifully, to be changing somewhat.

Julia says, I am 60 and my daughter is studying popular music at Liverpool University. This year she did a module on music for gaming, so I too learnt a lot from it. Since she's been at home, she's a module on music for gaming, so I too learned a lot from it. Since she's been at home, she's been watching a YouTube video of another person playing The Last of Us 2. She doesn't have a game or a PlayStation herself. I'm a so-called bad mother. But I've enjoyed watching it with her too. The technology behind it is all amazing, as is the music, of course. It's by Gustavo Santolala, who also wrote the music for Brokeback Mountain.

Julia goes on, my daughter's gay so it's wonderful for her to see the strong female gay couple in The Last of Us Two rather than skimply clad and often abused females in games like GTA. That's Grand Theft Auto isn't it? Gaming has largely passed my household

by for which in the past I've been somewhat grateful. But perhaps this is just something I need to know more about. Thanks to everybody who's emailed us today. We're back tomorrow among my guests tomorrow, Dawn Bilbre, the ICU nurse who did that incredible video begging for people not to panic by in the early days of lockdown. Hello, I'm Tim Harford, the presenter of More or Less. And I believe that if you want to understand the world, which is a very big, very complicated place, then numbers are an absolutely essential tool.

They're like a telescope for an astronomer or an X-ray machine for a radiographer. Numbers answer questions we can't answer in any other way, such as how safe is a home birth? And yes, we check the facts. What are those lying politicians lying to us about this week? So please subscribe to More or Less and let numbers light up your world. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.