Woman's Hour - Sofie Gråbøl, Christine Jardine, Women and Equalities spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats, Grace Campbell on abortion

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

Woman’s Hour has invited the leaders of all the main political parties for an interview in the run-up to the General Election. Today, in place of the Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey, Nuala McGovern is joined by Christine Jardine, the party’s Women and Equalities spokesperson.Danish actress Sofie Gråbøl is best known to British viewers for her role as Sarah Lund in Scandi Noir crime drama The Killing. Now she’s returning to our cinema screens in a new film, Rose. Sophie plays Inger, a woman with serious mental health challenges, who takes a bus trip to Paris with her sister, Ellen. She discusses how she researched the character of Inger, by talking to the real woman that she is based on. At the start of the month, comedian Grace Campbell wrote candidly about her mental health struggles after having an abortion and the response to her piece has been overwhelming. She speaks to Nuala about her experience, being pro-choice and how she’s sharing this as part of her stand-up. Last weekend protests were held in four cities in the Republic of Ireland calling for justice after a serving soldier was given a suspended sentence for an attack on a woman which left her unconscious and with a broken nose. The Irish Defence Forces have confirmed that a review has been launched. Yesterday the protests continued outside the Dail, the Irish Assembly and Natasha was given a standing ovation inside as she watched from the public gallery. Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, a full and varied programme for you today. We continue with our election coverage this morning. Woman's Hour has invited all the leaders of the main political parties for an interview here. And in place of the Liberal Democrats leader Sir Ed Davey, the party has provided spokesperson for Women and Equalities, Christine Jordan, who I'll be speaking to in just a few minutes time. Also, Sophie Grubel, famously known for her role as Sarah Lund in The Killing, is now playing a woman with a mental illness

in a new film, Rose. It is a moving portrayal of the challenges she faces and also about the unconditional love of her family who are trying to care for her. We'll also hear from Natasha O'Brien. She was given a standing ovation yesterday in the Irish Parliament. She's been speaking out after her attacker,

a member of the Irish Defence Forces, was given a suspended sentence last week for a brutal, unprovoked attack. The judge's decision ignited protests across the country and has shone a spotlight on violence against women in Ireland. And also, you might have read an article that was written by comedian Grace Campbell earlier this month. She wrote about the unexpected emotional turmoil in the aftermath of an abortion that she chose

to have in December. We're going to speak about that experience. You can get in touch with the programme on any of the conversations that we are having today. The number to text is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700100444. I look forward to hearing from you. Well, as I was mentioning, we have indeed invited all the leaders

from the main political parties. And this is to speak to us in the run-up to, of course, the general election, which is taking place on the 4th of July. We began earlier this month with Plaid Cymru and the Green Party. Today, in place of the Liberal Democrat leader, Sir Ed Davey, I'm joined by Christine Jardine, the party spokesperson on women and equalities. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, Nuala. Thank you.

Why should women vote for the Liberal Democrats? For a whole lot of reasons. If you look at everything that we have tried to do for the last, oh, however long, you see that we are a party who put women at the centre of everything we do, whether our proposal to double the amount of financial support families can have when they take parental leave, whether it's the wins that we had for women in the last parliament with Wendy Chamberlain's Carers

Leavers Act, you know, hobhouses, anti-sexual harassment bills, you know, and we're also, we offer more support for women experiencing the menopause. And we recognise that everything we want to do in the NHS and for carers, women do still carry the burden in society. So as a woman, the Liberal Democrats are the party that always attracted me and I recognise in what we are putting forward now, a package that I like and I would support. So you mentioned some of the aspects there, but you will have seen that the Institute for Fiscal Studies

brought out a report this week which said your tax plans would be unlikely to bring the revenue that you want. So how exactly are you planning on paying for some of the policies? Well, we disagree with the Institute for Fiscal Studies because when we look at how to pay for the things, the transformational things we want to do to save the NHS, to save social care, to improve a lot of women, young people and children in society, we looked at how we can do this very carefully. And we came up with a proposal that would mean reversing the tax on the tax

relief that big banks have had under the Conservatives, that's £4 billion. That would raise right away by taking away that tax relief. We would also reform capital gains tax so that the very richest, the billionaires and the multi-multi-millionaires and the really big companies would pay more capital gains tax. But other smaller concerns and people who are less well off would pay less capital gains tax. And that would bring in another £5 billion. So that's £9 billion that we would immediately have to invest in the NHS, social care and other policies.

But also what we want to do is we want to ensure the mental health and welfare of the next generation. And there's a near epidemic going through younger people at the moment. And a lot of it is to do with the abuse that they are facing and the things that they're seeing in social media. So we would triple the digital media tax so that those big online companies who make an absolute fortune pay for mental health care. And we can put a mental health professional in every school in the country for young people and we can set up mental health hubs. We can do so much more for the next generation.

So there are some more of the plans that you are setting out, but you say you disagree with the IFS report. You mentioned social care there. The IFS report states that your party has not identified sufficient funding to pay for those plans. And do you also disagree with the Nuffield Trust, who has said that funding you've promised for social care is also inadequate?

They are respected think tanks. Yes, but they are very respected. But we disagree because we took a very cautionary approach because some of the things we've suggested, like the tax and the share buyback, are going to have behavioural changes with them. And we recognise that. So we have taken a very cautious approach. There's also things like the one off windfall tax. But we feel that these issues in society are so important. The NHS is so vital, not just for our health and wellbeing, but for our economic wellbeing as well. Too many people are stuck on waiting lists because the social care is not available to get people who are in hospital out of hospital into their own homes so that we can get more people into hospital. We can get them off the waiting list and back out into the workforce.

So all these things are vitally important. And these are the sort of things that we've got to deal with. But while we're doing that, we mustn't forget that, you know, there is a need to be looking at measures to support women who've been victims of domestic abuse, to get the compensation that the WASPI women have been promised for so long, but not got. We need to address these issues and address them quickly. So they are more of the issues that you talk about, which of course will take increased spending. And you

talk about you will do it in part, for example, to ensure that survivors of violence against women and girls and domestic abuse get the support they deserve, that you'll expand the number of refuges and rape crisis centres to meet that demand. But there is no mention of how that pledge specifically will be paid for. That one particularly on refuges and domestic abuse support. Well, we have talked about how we would raise the funding for the proposals that we want to do.

Tell me here. We have mentioned for a long time the one-off windfall tax that we would place on energy companies. And, you know, when you want to see societal changes like we do, you want to make sure that you are able to do it properly. So we have fully costed what we're going to do with those changes that I've already mentioned to the tax relief that the big banks were given to capital gains tax to the one off windfall tax. You know, we are serious about making real change, about saving the NHS. And if you look at our manifesto, the costings are all there. They are what your manifesto? We have a reputation.

Sorry if you don't mind me saying so, through the last three or four elections, we have a reputation for putting out fully funded costing manifestos. And you are putting them out, but then the Trust, Nuffield Trust, and also the IFS is disagreeing

with some of the figures. But let's go back to that issue of supporting survivors of violence. What figure would you put on that to expand the number of refuges and rape crisis centres? Well, it's a huge problem and it's something that

we feel that we need to be looking at. It's something that we've been looking at since I became an MP seven years ago. The domestic abuse bill, which became the Domestic Abuse Act, it's an awful lot to influence that. Is there a figure

though? Is there a figure, Miss Jordan, that you would put on it? If you could just let me get to... It's not something. It's a simple standalone figure that you can look at. Domestic abuse and violence against women is hidden in so many areas of society.

It's so... Let me stay specific with the money because the charity Women's Aid, for example, they're calling on the future government to invest £427 million per year, £427 million per year to fund specialist women's services. Does that sound like a reasonable figure to you?

Is that something that the Liberal Democrats would commit to? What we would do is commit to looking at how we can provide those services, because I think that addressing violence against women and girls is hugely important, massively important to everyone, I believe, in society. It's important for the well-being of women. And I understand you have made that point. But what about that figure? But that figure is something that we would have to look at. And we would have to examine in absolute detail to make sure. But we do want, we have committed to expanding the number of refugees and rape crisis centres to meet demand.

I understand that. I'm just trying to get something very specific that our listeners can hang their hat on. Absolutely. But what we need to do is talk to those people involved in running those rape crisis centres and how we meet the demand and how we move it forward. We need to ensure sustainable funding for services. I understand.

It's just a lot of people. And we're not going to do that by simply picking a figure out of the air. No, what some of the listeners may have liked is for you to have that figure already at this point in the campaign. But let us move on. We mentioned about the sums not adding up. What would you do? What would you cut, we'd say?

There's public services we know are struggling. Councils we know are going bankrupt. If taxes are not enough, where would you stop funding to make up the numbers, to pay for your party's promises? Well, we've said how we would pay for our party's promises. Well, we've said how we would pay for our party's promises.

We've fully funded it. And what we don't want to see happen is the public services in this country, which have been undermined for the past seven years, we don't want to see them undermined any further. We have said that we would give councils more autonomy to look at whether or not they need to address council tax in their areas. But what we need to do is look at how we save, first of all, our vital services like the NHS

and social care, which we know are under threat. And we've laid out quite clearly about what we would do. And it's about the burdens that are facing people across this country, that are facing families. It's about alleviating that by doing things like making parental leave easier, by giving families the choice of how they spread parental leave, whether the mother takes more of them. And I understand that with issues,

but I'm speaking about whether there's something that would be up to be cut. No, none of us want to see any public services cut. And we have laid out how we would invest, how we would invest in more GPs, how we would invest in more dentists, how we would attract more people into working. Ms Jordan, because we have limited time,

let me please move on. You're here on behalf of your leader, Sir Ed Davey. He, along with many other Liberal Democrat politicians, took part in the coalition government of 2010-2015 and he held ministerial posts. While in power, your party scrapped its pledge to abolish tuition fees. You've seen probably this week a lot of anger still over that because Ed Davey voted to increase them threefold.

Can you say he's a man of his word? Yeah, I think if you look back at the coalition, and we have said this and Ed has said this so often, would we have done things differently? Yes, in that particular case, did we make a mistake?

We promised something which we then couldn't deliver because we were not in government on our own, we were in a coalition and we couldn't deliver because we were not in government on our own. We were in a coalition and we couldn't deliver what we had promised. And that was a mistake. And we have, A, paid the price, a very heavy price for that, but electorally. But we have also learned a very important lesson from that. And we have learned that you don't by the lessons that we learned going into a coalition and how different it is in a coalition from being in power on your own. So is Ed Davey a man of his word? Yes, of course he is. Davy that I've known for a decade. A scientist, Davy, that cares about social care, that cares about people,

that is passionate about saving our NHS and our social care sector. You say he is a man of his word. I want to move on because we have a number of issues in the limited time we have. In your manifesto you pledged to enforce safe access zones, also known as buffer zones, around abortion clinics and hospitals.

So can I take it that your leader, Sir Ed Davie, signed off on this manifesto pledge? It's our manifesto pledge. If you don't mind me saying so, that's a strange question. It's a manifesto pledge, which our leader, as leader of the party. Of course the manifesto is something which he agrees with, which we all agree with and we all support. So I ask then, why in October 2022, when 11 of the then 14 Liberal Democrats MPs voted

to introduce these zones nationwide, that Sir Ed Davey was not among them? He is not recorded as voting after that debate. I couldn't tell you what was responsible for that. Ed may have had among them. He is not recorded as voting after that debate. I couldn't tell you what was responsible for that. Ed may have had any number of reasons for not

being there but the thing you notice there is that the 11 of the 12 of us voted for it so it was party policy to vote. Now I don't know why Ed was not there and I'm sure if you asked Ed what he was doing on a specific date several years ago he'd have to check his diary. But he didn't prioritise that vote.

But can I just say that very often there are reasons why we cannot be there which are outwith our control and we are paired or slipped. And the fact that someone is not there for a vote does not mean that they did not support it. It means sometimes that they simply couldn't be there. And I don't think it's fair to judge that situation.

But we have to judge people on their voting records whether they have voted or not. You're telling me that you didn't vote against? No, I'm asking for clarity for our listeners because he is not recorded as voting after that debate. Why don't I get some more?

If you don't mind me saying so, I'm absolutely sure that the listeners appreciate that there are occasions, and I can't give any for anybody else other than myself, but there have been occasions when I've been a Member of Parliament where I wanted to be at a vote, but I couldn't for personal reasons. So let me ask you, in our last minute, I don't think it's fair to judge. For our audience, for pure clarity, where does your leader stand

on this particular issue of buffer zones? Well, I think that's absolutely clear from our manifesto, which our leader actually pointed out, signed on, that we all support 100% that it's there. It's clear in the manifesto where he and the party stand on buffer zones. And I don't think there's any... So you plan to enforce safe access zones? I think that anyone going through

a traumatic medical procedure, an emotional trauma that so many women are facing when they go for a termination, they deserve the right to some privacy and some protection from anything which might add to that trauma. And I think that I would, you know,

I have every respect for people's opinions on this issue, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that women going through a traumatic experience like that, an emotional experience, deserve a wee bit of privacy, a wee bit of shelter, and a wee bit just of compassion for what they're going through. Thank you so much for speaking to us. Christine Jordan, representing Sir Ed Davey,

the leader of the Liberal Democrats. You can listen to our interviews with the leaders of Plaid Cymru and the Green Party on BBC Sounds or by going to our website where there's a dedicated election page. These interviews will continue with the Scottish National Party tomorrow.

You can also watch the Woman's Hour election debate where we had seven of the senior women join me on Woman's Hour last week. That was Tuesday the 18th of June. You can watch back on iPlayer. It's on the election page, as you'll see there,

or listen through BBC Sounds, of course, as well. Thanks very much to Miss Jardine. Now, 84844, if you want to get in touch on anything you're hearing on the programme today. Sophie Grubel, Danish actress, is best known to British viewers for her role as Sarah Lund

in the Scandi noir crime drama, The Killing. You'll know she won legions of fans for her portrayal of the brilliant and driven police officer and became a fashion icon for, yes, that jumper. Now Sophie is returning to our screens in rows. This is a new film from Danish director Niels Arden

Oplev. Grubel plays Inger, a woman inspired by Oplev's sister who has schizophrenia. Ellen is keen to connect with Inger and wants to show the rest of the family that Inger can live more independently. And to that end, they take a coach trip and a holiday to Paris. I'm joined now by Sophie Grubel on the line from Denmark. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much, Nuala. Pleasure meeting you. Did I pronounce your name as well as you pronounced mine?

You pronounced it perfectly you can be Irish I was trying my best Danish there It's lovely to see you, I have you on my screen in front of you I was watching you last night in this incredibly moving film that is directed by Niels Arden Opliv

and it's a personal somewhat biographical film for him too because it's inspired by his sister's life. The character is called Inger in the film. His sister is Mary Elizabeth. Tell me a little bit about taking on a role like that. it's been the most professionally for me the most uh challenging inspiring and wonderful experience um you know you have this stupid phrase for actors the role of your life i think this might be it for me because she's's such, first of all, is such a wonderful story that Nils has written. And it's very directly based on real events

and on his two sisters. And it has such warmth and humor, although it deals with a quite serious topic because Inga, the main character whom I play, suffers quite severely from schizophrenia. But the wonderful thing is that Nils has chosen to focus not so much on her limitations, but more on everything else that she is and can offer. Because, well, the truth is, I think any diagnosis is really a condition. And I mean, there are millions of ways to live with any condition.

So a diagnosis doesn't really say a lot about a character or a person. Yes, and of course, there are many people living with schizophrenia who live a regular life. And independently, Inger cannot, in the way that she has schizophrenia. She struggles sometimes with everyday tasks.

But it is such a sensitive topic to really approach. And I wondered how you research the role, particularly when this is a real woman that you are able to meet? Yes, I actually, this is the first time I've played a person that is actually living and breathing and whom I could meet. Well, I started out by reading the script, as you always do. And then I did a lot of research on um on schizophrenia and read a lot and and actually I I I it kind of paralyzed me creatively because I felt such a huge responsibility responsibility to portray this character who who's living with this mental variation in a way that that was respectful and and true and obviously

with with schizophrenia it has such a wide spectrum like you say I mean a lot of people live like with no problem with the diagnosis. And then on the other end of the scale, you that people who are mentally ill have very often brutal murderer or or then you can all you we've had a tendency to use people with mental illness for that so I actually felt a lot of responsibility to to to portray this character with the you know, with nuance and with respect. But somehow I also felt that that was almost paralyzing me because you cannot really, I realized very quickly that you cannot really play a diagnosis. You can only play a person.

Yes. And any person, and that also goes for Inga in this film, she's so much more than her diagnosis. And so what really sort of freed me and opened the role for me was when I met Mary Elizabeth, whom the character is based on. How was that? It was just, she is just the most wonderful, inspiring, funny, clever. She speaks French, she plays the piano, she paints person and, and she has a very unique way of carrying herself physically, very unique way of speaking, has a very special

gaze. And so I actually allowed myself to be very directly inspired by her for this role. I was immediately struck by the physicality of it. Yes, very much so, very much. And I was obviously knowing I was going to speak to you, but I was thinking, how did you do that? But the other aspect, which really, I mean, took my breath away at times, is how it portrayed the unconditional love of those that are caring for somebody who is ill. And I don't think it has to be a mental illness. I think it can be those minute by minute changes that can be in somebody's behaviour in the sense of how well or how ill they are at that moment and the ramifications

and effect that that has on the people around them I thought that was also just so beautifully represented yes I agree it's a very strong and and warm story relationship between two sisters who set off on this trip to Paris. And the fact that Inge gets on this bus, to me, it's also such a brilliant storytelling or script that Nils has written, because in a way it is a mini society. You have all these people who don't know each other, who, you know, meet on this bus and go to Paris. And obviously, had Inger not gotten on that bus, I'm sure they would have had a lovely trip and they would have seen

all the museums they'd planned and eaten at the restaurants planned. And really it wouldn't have been half as memorable. Because Inga, because she has such a different perception and such a different way of exchanging with other people, that creates a lot of unexpected situations, both good and bad. And it actually also creates a lot of humorous situations. Very much. Very much. Also, I think story about you know if we exclude uh people who think or behave or act differently to most of us uh which i i mean i i totally know the feeling like if you're sitting in a waiting room at the doctors or at a bus stop and someone comes in you immediately detect this person behaves differently and you

immediately feel alarmed or alert or maybe threatened because something is unknown so really it's also a story about that we actually and this might sound too grand and pathetic, but I think we as a species actually depend on people who think differently and have a different approach to life because otherwise, I don't know, we would stand totally still, wouldn't we? What did the real woman, Mary Elizabeth, think of the film? Oh, well, actually, you know, you're always anxious to do good work and you're always nervous to see how the audience, you know,

receives a film that you've done. And actually, this film was a huge success in Denmark. It was very, very very yeah popular but to me the real success was we had a screening for Mary Elizabeth and everyone all the carers and all the people living in the place she lives and it was just the most wonderful premiere i've ever attended and she was so happy about the film and she didn't mind she said or she she smiled and said i see that you've taken a lot from me and i like that so that was like, yeah, the ultimate recognition. And yeah, I'm still in contact with her.

Yes, I love her very much. The seal of approval. Thank you so much, Sophie Grubel. Rose is in selected cinemas this Friday. It's available to stream on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Curzon Home Cinema, iTunes and Microsoft Films and TV. Sophie, it's been a pleasure.

Come back and visit us again soon. I will. My pleasure. Now, you don't want to miss any edition of Woman's Hour and you don't want to miss Friday's edition either. Anita will be coming to you live from the Glastonbury Festival. She's joined a whole host of fabulous women, including DJ Ritu, DJ Nadi. They are two women that are gracing the stage at the New South Asian Area Arrivals.

It's making its debut this year. Also, pop icon for those particularly around my age, Cindy Lauper. And that is live on Radio 4 right here on Woman's Hour, starting at 10am. 84844 if you want to get in touch on any of the issues that we are speaking about today. My next guest is someone who has made a name for herself, talking openly and candidly about her life. Comedian Grace Campbell is the daughter

of the former Labour strategist Alastair, yes, and she has gained a cult following, entertaining audiences with her anecdotes on lots of things, men, dating, sex, life in your 20s. However, at the start of the month, she published an article in The Guardian with a very different tone. And that's because in December, Grace chose to have an abortion and what she thought would be a quick procedure

soon turned into months of deep depression and that was something that she had very much not anticipated. She's now calling for more nuance around the way that we discuss abortion and the intricacies of being pro-choice but also going through the grieving process. Grace, welcome to our studio. Hi, thanks for having me. Let me go back to the beginning for people who haven't followed this story. You describe in the article vividly lining up eight pregnancy tests that were all positive. How did seeing that make you feel? Shocked and confused and I think you imagine how you would feel if you got unexpectedly pregnant

and it wasn't how I thought I would feel if that were to happen so I felt really really confused I remember the few days after I found out I was pregnant I was just like I felt so stuck because I knew that I had to make a decision I knew that it was like a timely decision because it's one of those things that the sooner you do it if you are having an abortion the better it is but I just wish I could have had like a month to sort of pause time and make my decision so I felt very stuck and confused the reason I took so many tests was because I thought I was making it up I was sort of like driving myself crazy thinking that I was just imagining it so I kept buying more and more tests and then my friends sort of intervened and were like, you're wasting money here.

Stop buying pregnancy tests. I even was struck. I think you were doing an ad. It was and you had to be on a trapeze, for example, for one part of the ad. And somebody asked you, you know, the regular health questions. You know, do you have a heart condition? This could you be pregnant?

But you said, even though you knew with these eight pregnancy tests, you said no. And that kind of, to me, illustrated perhaps some of the turmoil you were going through. Well I think actually that's that was the moment I knew I was going to have an abortion because that was when I decided if I want to keep going with this pregnancy I probably shouldn't jump off of this trapeze and I just decided in that moment I'm not ready to do this. I, as much as I felt really confused and conflicted and sort of nervous about making that decision, I think in that moment I was like, yeah, this is not the right time for me. But it was just a really intense time.

And I think you, you know, it's like any kind of shock thing that happens in your life, whether it's like a death or a breakup or you you remember those periods so vividly because you're feeling everything in a way that you don't feel like the everyday mundane life so I just remember a sort of all of these feelings of how confused and emotional and kind of scared I felt but the worst part of my abortion was afterwards that whole period before was like it was a decision making process my friends were incredible they were sort of gathered around me and we sort of like dealt with it like a committee and they all supported me and made me feel like whatever I decided to do they would be there for me but afterwards was the part that I wasn't prepared for um so you started the process what do you remember from that time from what time of from you went in to get the

abortion yeah so I went to to see a doctor and um I had really wanted to have the surgical abortion because lots of my friends who had done like one or the other there are two types of abortion there's a surgical abortion where you either go under or you're like heavily drugged up and it gets sort of sucked out of you it still has a bit of like aftermath in terms of what comes out of you but it's not like the medical abortion which you do at home you take a few pills then a couple of days later you take another pill and it starts to come out of you now the doctor that I went to see insisted he kept actually saying to me he kept saying I went in and said I want to do the surgical abortion I was really advocating for myself because I had a really busy period I was about to go to America to do my show off Broadway

and I really didn't want to be bleeding for that whole time and I said I really want to do the surgical abortion and he said well if it was me and I just got so angry at him because I was like well it's not you it won't ever be you and so stop patronizing me in the situation anyway I let him persuade me to have the medical abortion and so I was told I was going to bleed for like two to three days. I bled for, I would say, six and a half weeks solidly. And then I bled again like a few weeks later, like a huge amount. Because it hadn't all come out. And that was sort of, for me, one of the hardest parts of this process.

Was having to see it. Was having to sort of associate going to the toilet with what I was losing and having that visualization of it, which was really hard to get out of my head afterwards. And how did it manifest in those weeks after the abortion? I was incredibly depressed, sort of probably the most depressed I've ever been in my life um I it felt like I was coming down off of something and and it is because you're you know you're when you're pregnant your hormones are like increasing every day and suddenly you're not pregnant and one of the things I talk about in my article was that the doctor showed it to me um on a scan? On a scan. And that is not the usual protocol, but since this piece has come out,

so many people have contacted me saying that that exact thing has happened to them recently, 20 years ago. And still now, however long ago it was, they remember that and they remember that feeling that they felt in that moment. And one of the things

that I really struggled with afterwards was that was a photographic memory that would pop into my head whenever I closed my eyes, whenever I'd remember what was going on, it would just come into my head sort of like invasively. And it was, that was a really hard thing to get over. It took a really long time. Annette, we spoke to the NHS and the statement they gave us says, we welcome Grace's openness in talking about her experience. The NHS is determined to learn from what women tell us. It is vital that where scans are required,

services should respond with sensitivity and women should not be shown the ultrasound screen unless they've requested it. They go on to say abortion services are facing unprecedented levels of need. And in March, NHS England set out a new vision to improve access and care. And the work continues as we strive to provide the best possible care for women at a difficult time. I mean, some of the issues they say that scans can be used in the context where there are uncertainties around gestation, correct gestation, for example. You have to have a scan.

He just didn't. The screen wasn't facing me. So I knew you have to have a scan. They have to check that you're actually pregnant before you do it. But it was that he turned the screen to my face and then said, look, there it is, and didn't give me any warning or ask for my consent. So what I've heard from you

and also reading your article, Grace, it was the scan, the way you were treated or listened to or not listened to, the physical effects, and then that deep depression. Did you feel you could speak to people about it? Did anybody come to you and say, this resonates with me? Well, yes, now that I've written about it.

But at the time I was so deeply ashamed. I didn't talk about it at all. I was in New York performing. And ashamed why? Because I just felt so isolated. I felt like I was grieving for something that I'd lost. But because no one had ever spoken to me about that being a form of grief that you go through. I felt like I was the only person in the world who'd ever behaved like that. So I felt ashamed. I felt like I was

going through something that was essentially kind of weak for me to be going through. And I was in New York performing, having to wear a nappy because I was bleeding so much on stage. And no one watching me perform would have known that that was what was going on because I just had to pretend like everything was OK. And I can imagine some people that are listening to this interview might find it or something maybe in a different way, but that it is bringing up some of perhaps the experience that they have gone through. So I do want to say that there are links for BBC Action Line on the Woman's Hour website, which offers support on the issues that we are talking about. Because, of course, you chose to have an abortion.

It is a contentious issue, as you'll know. There are people who are opposed to abortion. Hearing what you're saying may reinforce their feeling that abortion is wrong. What would you say? Yeah, I think that's a really dangerous thing to say, if I'm honest, and this is exactly my point. Why can we not be able to have access to these things while also being able

to say it's a difficult thing to go through part of the reason why it was so hard for me was because of how isolated I was because I didn't know until this article came out I received 8,000 dms in one day on Instagram 8,000 dms and I tried to get through them and I couldn't because I was just so overwhelmed but the ones that I saw every single person had essentially the same experience of me and so many people said that reading my article had given them something to send to their friends to send to their partners send to their parents to say this is why I found it so difficult like this is sort of an explanation so to say and I have to answer this because I've had also so many death threats from all these far right Christian groups in America who are very anti-abortion I knew this was going to happen I'm very clued into how the

world works and I have to say this that this is my hot the crux of this problem is that we don't allow women to be able to access these things which should be our our given right while also being able to say yeah it's difficult and just say to other people here's's a heads up. If you go through this, you are not alone. You have other people that you can talk to. That's all I wanted at the time. And I was so scared of talking about it because of knowing that people might sort of try and reinforce their pro-life agenda by what I was saying.

But this is why we're silenced into not talking about these things. It's just they win if we don't get to talk about these things. Let me read a message that came in from Kristen. She's in Oxford. She says, my unplanned pregnancy and later abortion with my partner at the time caused so much grief. It derailed my career and caused me so much pain. There was no support afterwards. And that has seriously taken its toll on me and my life. So echoing some of what you're saying, Grace. Because I think some people put the term or the emotion regret they think might be what you're feeling. But it's not that.

No, no, no. And like if you read my piece, I'm so glad I had an abortion. I don't want to be a parent right now. And this is why like we should be able to say all of these things and be able to exist in so many contradictions I just don't understand the way that the world works but anyway that's a whole another thing I don't regret it I'm so deeply grateful I had access to it and I feel for people in parts of the world where they don't but I hate the fact that we're punished for being able to make these decisions and also punished if we don't. And the men are never punished. Like, how do you get pregnant? Because of a man.

But now in America, women are being threatened with the death penalty for having an abortion. Why is the man who gets that woman pregnant not being threatened with the death penalty? Why is this a women's issue? You get pregnant because of men. And it annoys me so much, the sort of lack of power dynamic that goes on between men and women in these situations.

So I just really hope that in talking about this, because I'm a comedian, I don't like talking about these emotionally sort of tolling things. I like making people laugh. But I really hope that the sort of outcome of it is that it makes people going through it feel far less alone and that it makes men understand the consequences of some of their behavior. And an abortion is not just the process on the day, it's the kind of months afterwards that can be really, really traumatising for people. Another message coming in. I've read that 50% of women who have abortions have breakdowns.

I don't have any evidence for that figure that a listener has given me. However, she says, I would still do the same again. I would simply have appreciated better advice on how it would affect me, though probably even better advice on how to leave the man I let persuade me that condoms ruined his fun.

You decided to tell that story in the article which we've spoken about, but also as part of your stand-up. How was that? Well, I'm writing a show. It's not really about my abortion. I'm writing a show which is about

the things that I've learned in this process of turning 30 and having to go through this. And it's actually this show, it's called Grace Campbell's On Heat. It tells the story of what happened in fun ways because this is the other thing. I'm allowed to talk about these things in exactly the tone that I want to

because it's what happened to me. And I tell some fun stories about me and my friends it's a kind of love letter to my friends without whom I just wouldn't have gotten through that period um and I found it incredibly cathartic like the thing is is that these things are so intense but actually so much humor can come out of these massive life-altering moments and I feel really glad I've been able to turn something that was deeply traumatic into something that's obviously comforting other people but also makes me go oh okay this was worth something like this happened because I had to go through this process I had to learn these things about myself I had to be able to put this show out in the world and it will make other people feel safe and better about what they're going through.

How are you now? I'm okay. I'm going to Glastonbury. So I'm looking forward to that. I'm okay. I find talking about these things really difficult because it doesn't'm constantly just trying to like bring it back to a sort of ridiculous persona that I've created for myself but the aftermath of that piece coming out has been incredibly overwhelming and I know good it totally but it's I just I feel so sort of conscious of how many people there are that either haven't got access to the help that I had during that time or are scared to talk to the people in their lives about it. So I just really hope I can help encourage this conversation to carry on because I think it's a much needed one. Grace Campbell's stand-up will be, she's gone to Glastonbury,

but she's also gone to the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. That is the 2nd to the 11th of August. And thank you so much, Grace Campbell, for coming into us on Woman's Hour. And I do want to reiterate, if you've been affected by any of the issues we've talked about, there are links for the BBC Action Line on the Woman's Hour website,

which will point you to organisations that are offering support. Thank you. Now, last weekend, actually last night as well, there were protests taking place in Ireland calling for justice after a serving soldier was given a suspended sentence for an attack on a woman. It left her unconscious and with a broken nose. Cathal Croaghy was the person who was serving in the Irish Defence Forces. He punched Natasha O'Brien six times after she asked him to stop shouting homophobic abuse. He later boasted about the incident on social media.

He was sentenced. And Natasha told BBC Ulster that she was really, really hoping that she would have been able to set a good example that when you do something bad you get consequences for it and instead it has shown that our system is broken. The Irish Defence Forces have confirmed that a review has been launched yesterday. Last night the protests were continuing specifically outside the Dáil which is the lower house of the Irish Parliament. Natasha was given a standing ovation inside by politicians as she was watching from the public gallery.

She joins me from Ireland now. Welcome to Women's Hour, Natasha. Hello, how are you doing? Great to be here. Thank you for having me. Now, some people will be hearing about that story, your story for the first time. The attack happened in May 2022. You didn't know your attacker. He was off duty. What happened? Yeah, so I was working a shift in a bar and myself and my friend, Sean, we decided we were getting a taxi home together because, you know, as a woman, I was taught from a very, very young age, don't walk alone at night. It's not safe. So, you know, we're walking down the main street of my city in limerick city in the south of ireland and um we were just walking up to where we would get the taxis um but there was a group of young males in their 20s early 20s and they were like shouting really

aggressively across the road to this lone male and they were using really vicious homophobic flares it was really frightening um myself and my friend we didn't even have to think about it we just immediately wanted to try to like attempt to de-escalate it a little bit and um you know just say ah don't be saying that guys come on and um immediately the the um I suppose the verbal the verbal abuse and the the kind of fight and that aggression turned me and my my attacker then he was just completely um yeah he just grabbed onto me by the head hair and started punching me repeatedly and yeah I was I felt like a punching bag um I didn't feel human I just felt like an object um it was just I was just it was going through my head why is this happening to me I couldn't understand I was just in complete shock and I think he punched me six times repeatedly

into the face um before then I hit my head off the concrete pavement. And then he continued to he got down on the ground with me and he continued punching me. And I had to curl up into the fetal position to try to protect myself and my head. And my friend Shauna was just frozen in fear she was standing there and um she was in just screaming screaming at him to stop screaming for help and his group of friends they all just stood there and watched and you know from shauna's reaction from my cries for help it was clearly something that was it was clearly something that was, it was clearly wrong and it was something that was not okay. And even his male friends, the group, the onlookers, did absolutely nothing. You know, we've been speaking about it a lot here in Ireland

and, you know, it's a societal problem. Let me get into some of the specifics, Natasha. So you decided to speak up when Crotty was given a suspended sentence. The judge described the attack as cowardly, vicious, unprovoked, but that Crotty must be given credit for pleading guilty. And he also said that he'd have no doubt that Crotty's army career would be over if he were jailed. What were your thoughts when you heard that? It's honestly just soul destroying i mean this is a soldier in our defense force

the irish defense force their mission is their vision is to um protect the citizens of ireland and keep the peace that is their duty in ireland and to know that he was receiving special combat training that he then used on me when I was speaking up and trying to prevent something violent from happening um it's just lunacy it's really really shocking but it's absolutely not shocking at all, because this happens all the time in Ireland. There is such a misogynistic culture in the Defence Forces, especially in the justice system. And the justice system, you say. Let me read a little bit. The Irish Defence Forces, we asked them for a statement. Here's what they said. They said the Defence Forces unequivocally condemn any action by serving personnel that are contrary to military regulations or that do not reflect our values.

The forces have been clear there's no place for any form of gender-based violence, abuse or any form of inappropriate behaviour by force members on or off duty. They say that Lieutenant General Sean Clancy has directed a thorough review across all the brigades and formations to ensure all regulations regarding these matters are being adhered to and a report is being prepared for Antóniste, so the second ranking member of government. Do you have faith in that review?

I mean, it is my strong belief that the only reason there was even a statement issued was because of the highlight of my the height the highlight of my my case and my talking speaking out and not um not accepting that and um you know it's um our t-shock our prime minister simon harris he asked um of the defense forces there um there yesterday he has requested an internal investigation into the number of serving soldiers with criminal

records and they don't even have a number. They don't know and it is absolutely it is absolutely not acceptable to have any soldier that is in a position of power and and trusted with the protection of the citizens to have a criminal record so now we are waiting for that

number and i'm i'm sure it's going to be shocking but it won't be shocking at all a couple of other aspects the dpp the director of public prosecution some people uh or some an awful lot of people have been pushing her to appeal the sentencing. Your thoughts on that? My thoughts on that are that people are being people are I think the general public in Ireland are being told blame this person, blame that person, because it's just an issue that nobody is actually addressing and dealing with. And to say oh the DPP they have to appeal it the issue is far far greater it's on a very it's a systemic issue you don't think it's about your case specifically no it's a just it's a systemic issue in the justice system our system is completely broken.

There's just unduly lenient sentences given out time and time again. Violent attacks, domestic violence, sexual and, you know, just random attacks. It's all just constantly. And you read in the headlines in Ireland, I have two years suspended sentence, walks free, no custodial sentence. So what you would be looking for, I imagine, is a change in the sentencing guidelines.

It's not about the appeal of this one case. Oh no, I'm trying. For me, I have absolutely, the nation has rallied around me to give me so much support and tell me they're all behind me and it's absolutely appalling and i deserve justice but i am consistently telling people you all deserve justice too were this to happen to you if you might find yourself in a similar scenario and so many victims of our justice system because it's one thing to be a victim of a crime committed by one individual party however when you are victimized and traumatized at the hands of a system that is put in place to protect you

our government you know it's our law it's it so wrong. And I just cannot express how much it needs to be changed. It needs to be gutted. It needs to be wiped out and started again. Let me turn just in my last minute with you, Natasha, a couple of things. Standing ovation yesterday from the politicians, the Taoiseach, the Prime Minister, Simon Harris,, sometimes we think we've come far as a country, then something like this pops up and you realise we haven't come nearly as far as we thought we had. Your thoughts?

My thoughts. Okay, so I'll start with a standing ovation. I met with the opposing party leader, Mary Lou MacDonald, yesterday before she rose these issues in the chamber in our Parliament building and we discussed what was going to happen and she also informed me that I will be

letting the chamber know that you are above in the gallery spectating because we just wanted to put the pressure, we just wanted to put the pressure on for to receive an immediate response and some immediate action. And me, the absolutely traumatised victim sitting there looking down was going to cause that.

And I mean, yeah, it was amazing. You know, you knew there was pressure, you knew they had to. Do you think it will change things in my last 15 seconds? Yeah, I'm overwhelmed and honoured. Like there have been so many that support. There have been so many TDs and people in the government that do support.

We've definitely begun to make some changes. There have begun internal investigations into the Defence Forces and there's been so many protests. It's incredible. Natasha O'Brien, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for telling your story.

Tomorrow on Woman's Hour, Clare MacDonald will be here. She'll be joined by Mary MacAllan from the Scottish National Party. So do stay with us for that. Thanks so much to all my guests and to you for taking part

in today's Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Adam Fleming. This is going to be Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. it all? What is a manifesto? What's swing? How do opinion polls work? Who picks the candidates? That is the subject of my podcast series, Understand the UK Election, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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