Woman's Hour - Sofie Hagen, Rosacea, Party Bags

Episode Date: April 30, 2019

Danish comedian and podcaster Sofie Hagen challenges what she sees as endemic fatphobia in our society. In her new book, Happy Fat, Sofie shares how she found a true acceptance of her body and offers practical tips to those who are still struggling with a world that wants you to be smaller.Rosacea is a little known chronic skin condition. We hear from a blogger who lives with the condition and from consultant dermatologist Dr Emma Wedgeworth who talks about the treatment options and long term management of Rosacea.This week we’re marking the election of the UK’s first female Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher. We hear form listeners about life in 1979. What were the opportunities open to women and what of the attitudes many still faced? Plastic whistles, stretchy men, pencils with rubber toppers, bubbles, balloons and sweets – How do you fill your goody bags for your child’s party? Are you totally anti the concept of handing out obligatory plastic tat … or do you go down the right-on environmental route with a sock filled with a bag of seeds, an educational book or a sugar-free cake mix? Jane speaks to Lucy Parsons mother of two who despairs over party bags and Isabel Thomas, a children’s science writer with three children who is taking steps to change the throw-away culture of children’s parties.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Sofie Hagen Interviewed guest: Lex Gillies Interviewed guest: Dr Emma Wedgeworth Interviewed guest: Lucy Parsons Interviewed guest: Isabel Thomas Reporter: Henrietta Harrison Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast, April the 30th, 2019. On the podcast today, it's still 40 years since the election of Britain's first female Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher. And today you can hear some memories from two Woman's Hour listeners, one who was a first time voter in 1979 and the other was a Conservative Party agent in Lancashire. Really interesting talking to them this morning.

We'll also talk about the skin condition rosacea and try to find some solutions for people who have that particular condition and party bags. Do you provide them? What you put in them should you bother is it something we all ought to abandon in the pursuit of sanity um that's on the woman's hour podcast today but we started with a conversation that really got you going with the danish comedian and podcaster sophie hagen who's written a book about being fat. So Sophie, the book is called, I've got it here, Happy Fat, Taking Up Space in a World That Wants to Shrink You. So the title sets it up as here's a world that doesn't like fat people. You're a fat person and you're in the world.

And how is it for you? Yeah, exactly. It's, well, I've now learned to kind of overcome all the difficulties. I'm now, you know, happy and fat, which I know is quite rare for people to feel that way. In general, you know, fat people are oppressed on so many different levels. You know, if I walk down the street, I will often get abuse shouted at me, abuse that I probably can't say this earlier on the BBC or ever on the BBC. But offensive, really offensive stuff.

Yeah, stuff like the C word, stuff like I'll be spat on or cornered or shoved. Spat on? Yeah, absolutely. How often does that happen? Oh, I mean, it tends to kind of make me not want to go outside that much. But on very active weeks, yeah, I don't know, once a month, twice a month maybe. I have the knowledge that fat people get hired less than thin people. We get paid less than thin people.

I can't really turn on the television and watch anything without fat people being the ridicule and the punchline to any kind of joke. You know, you turn on the news and you see these headless fatties walking down the street with like obesity epidemic written everywhere. So you kind of know you're a very, very hated group in society. Well, it was just 24 hours ago at the start of Monday's edition of Woman's Hour that I was talking about recent research from Liverpool University, which talked about the link between emotional problems and obesity in young children. So without, I don't want to dismiss your passion for being positive about being fat, but there is no doubt that some people pay a price for that, don't they? Oh, all fat people pay a price. Well, in general, all marginalized groups pay a price for being, you know, oppressed and treated very badly.

So I'm in no way surprised that children get depression and anxiety because of the way we treat them. What surprised me about how people usually react to statistics like that is, you know, you go, oh, these fat children are sad. How can we make them thin? Instead of going, maybe they're sad because they're treated very badly and they're told by every single person they meet that they're worthless because of their bodies. Why not teach them to be, why not teach society to treat all of us better. There is a theory that the only good fat person is the fat person really desperate to lose weight and to be keen to be desperate to lose weight. Yeah, it's a term, the good fatty. It's if you kind of go, oh, don't worry, you know, I'm on my way to become thin. And I lived in that body for over a decade.

I lived with this belief that I was going to be thin. You know, we've all heard there's a thin woman inside of me wanting to get out. Turns out there isn't. There's a lot of cake and that's fine. But, you know, if you're fat, you tend to live in this kind of world of one day, you know, oh, I won't go to this party until I'm thin. I won't talk to this boy I like until I'm thin. I won't be happy till I'm thin. I won't wear the clothes I want to wear till I'm thin. And you kind of live in a world that doesn't exist in this imaginary world. And you keep trying to tell people, oh, I'll just have a salad because I'm on a diet. So don't worry. You know, I don't want to make you uncomfortable with my fatness.

You don't deny, though, that being thin or thinner would make your life easier. Oh, definitely. Of course it would. Yeah. Okay. What do you say to those people who say, right, Sophie, the answer would be then to eat less, move more. I've been trying to eat less, move more for over a decade of my life. The thing about diets is that they don't work. 98% of diets don't work. And that's harrowing statistics for a lot of people who are currently on diets. It's just, you know, I've tried every single diet that possibly exists, everything from Weight Watchers to slimming world to the atkins and atkinson's dr phil's son wrote a weight loss book i tried a diet called the think diet where you just have to think differently and then you don't change your diet at all but you think you think differently

and then supposedly it's a long it's a very strange thing i've tried every single diet that you can possibly imagine and i i'm fat my body wants to be fat and regardless of that you know if i even if you were to be able to lose weight if it was possible for everyone to lose weight then how does that not make the bullies win you know there'll still be people who are fat who uh yeah go on you know what i mean well it's just why why change the thing that people hate why not make people stop hating it at bbc woman's hour if you want to enter the conversation i'm having with with sophie hagan in your childhood that the dynamic is is particularly interesting you had a a sister who needed to be actually overfed didn't she because of medical she was tiny she was tiny And then there was you

and your mom, and then the grandparents who delighted in feeding you. Tell me a bit about that. Yeah, the food very, very quickly became everything but nutrition. You know, food became this thing that my sister needed to survive. It became this thing that my grandparents would give me to override my mother's authority because she would put me on a diet and they would go, oh, but we love you. So we'll serve cake for you all the time. And, you know, I would have, I remember my, our fridge once broke. That meant that all of our chocolate melted together into a big lump.

And my mother was tired. She was like, yeah, just have it. And then from then on, once a week, our fridge would mysteriously break in the middle of the night and I would get all the chocolate until my mom realized that what you were up to what I was up to so you describe you're quite light touch about that relationship with your mom but I it can't have been it can't have been all that easy it wasn't but I was also that behavior around food was backed up by society. You know, the only reason I went on a diet from when I was eight years old was because the school nurse said to my mother that it was dangerous and I was dangerously obese. And when you look at the pictures, I was just a kid, you know, with regular, just like a regular chubby little child body, you know. So the alternative, the better alternative would have been to leave you alone? Yeah, so, you know, our body already has what it needs to tell us what we need to eat, you know.

And then from, we're very, very young, we learn to squash all of our natural instincts and our hunger and our, you know, need for certain types of food. And we only eat what we think are good foods, and we don't eat what we think are bad foods. And you know, there's all these words around food, that's like the guilty pleasure or, oh, I've been bad this week, you know, it's so intertwined with morality and your personality and who you are as a person, instead of just listening to what your body actually wants you and i are both white women and you i i know you absolutely accept your white privilege and in the book you you include a really interesting chapter from from stephanie

who is um a very successful um writer and she blogs and makes videos about being um well how does how does she describe herself, actually? She's a woman of colour who is... I think she says plus size. Plus size, yeah. And she's been a guest on Woman's Hour. So if anybody wants to hear Stephanie, you can find her, I'm sure, if you search for Woman's Hour and Stephanie Yeboah. But you make it the point that we sometimes say, well, women of colour are, they are bigger and they are celebrated for being bigger.

But as you and Stephanie point out in the book, it's only a certain, a very particular type of woman of colour. Yeah, it's the same when people now talk about, oh, it's getting better. That's what I've been told a lot during, you know, talking about the book. People say, oh, but it's better, right? Because now instead of a size zero, they now show a size four on the runways. And you're like, yeah, but, you know, you still have to have the hourglass shape and you still have to have beauty privilege. You know, your face has to be symmetrical and you have to be feminine.

And you can't be too dark skinned. Oh, yeah. Yeah, colorism within the black community as well. It's definitely talked about in the book about, you know, the darker your skin is, the more oppressed you are as well sabina on twitter says i will never disrespect anyone for their size but the fact remains there are health hazards in being very big the cost to the nhs and so on this is something everyone can do something about i mean i'm of the of the belief that fat people also pay taxes. So I think the NHS thing is a weird thing because...

People are always bound to mention it though. Oh, I definitely know that. And you know what, it is probably the most tiring argument I can ever have because fat activists since the, when fat activism began in the 1960s, they started to have this conversation about health and the first kind of health myth was debunked in the 80s. But people keep bringing it up because people are not. What do you mean debunked? So what I mean is, first of all, health is only brought up when it comes to fat people. You know, the same people who bring up health all the time, they never, you know, when a thin person puts up

a picture of them eating a burger, no one goes, but what about your health? You know, if you watch football recently, when they're kicking each other's teeth out, no one ever goes, but are they not concerned about their health? People going bungee jumping, people drinking every night or people drinking when they're out or people smoking or doing drugs, never get the same amount of vitriol and fake concern. It's called concern trolling when you pretend to care about someone in order to make them feel ostracized and feel ashamed. Have you actually nailed down why it is that some people are so fearful of fat, fat people? Well, we're taught, we're taught from the moment we can

talk and think where, you know, there are children down to the age of three who start to have a bad idea of how they look because we watch it everywhere. Even in cute little Disney films, the villains are fat and evil. And every single advert and billboard teaches us that if you are fat, you are wrong, you are lazy, you're unintelligent, you should be ashamed, you should be thin. So of course, we learn to hate it and fear it and genuinely believe that there are these studies showing that people would rather be blind than fat, they would rather lose a limb than being fat, they would rather cut 10 years off of their life than being fat. It is believed to be one of the worst things you can be. And that's because people make money off of it. You know, the diet industry, the food industry. And they are very closely linked, we should say.

Indeed, some huge food companies also own diet businesses, don't they? Absolutely. Briefly, let's talk about the Disney princess thing, because you've got a lot, so much abuse when you said it was time for a fat Disney princess. Yeah, it's not even a cause that I really care much about. I never really watched Disney films. I was just watching one with my sister. And I thought, I started to feel a bit bad because, and I don't know why, it was just this weird, you know, I'm very body positive. I love my body.

I genuinely love my fat body. And yet when I was watching this Disney film, I suddenly felt bad about myself. And I thought, well, if I can do that at the age of 28, children must feel the same way. So I just tweeted, oh, we needed fat Disney princess. The next time I checked Twitter, it had exploded everywhere. Just the hate and the vitriol. And it lasted for weeks. It was amazing.

I just want to bring in a listener called ada who says according to the nhs website to lose weight i should be eating about 2200 calories which i eat below and i don't lose weight i haven't been able to work because of a lack of of clothing fitting me properly can't sit in chairs um two things i think you would say you'd also had to put up with yeah absolutely this is such a systemic thing. That's why it's not just about the individual person having to lose weight or trying to lose weight or struggling with how they feel about themselves. There's a huge systemic problem. It's over.

It goes through our entire society. You know, for most fat people, you walk into any room and you have to make this calculation in your head about where you can sit, where you can't sit. You know, you get on a plane and your anxiety has skyrocketed because how are people going to take my photo when I sit down? Are they going to complain about me? Am I even going to be able to get on the plane? Will they throw me off the plane for whatever reason? You know, it's such a huge, you know, you can't buy clothes in any stores, you have to do it online. All of which I'm bound to say, Sophie, makes me ask, how are you happy? Because you don't paint a particularly cheerful picture of the thoughts going through your head. Yeah, no, it's absolutely true. And it's very much against nature that I do like myself.

It has taken a lot of years. That's why I have it. There's a chapter in the book called How to Love Your Body, because I felt like I needed when I started this journey, I needed actual advice. I need to know exactly what to do. And what I the first step for me and the most important thing, I think, is to realize that fat equals bad is not a fact. This is not nothing of this is based on fact. We had the listener from before who said it is just a fact that fat equals bad is not a fact. This is not, nothing of this is based on fact. Like we had the listener from before who said,

it is just a fact that fat is unhealthy and that is not the case. It's also not the case that fat is unintelligent or unattractive or lazy or shameful. It's all based on what we've been taught by companies who wants to make money. And when I realized that, I was 21 when I learned what capitalism was.

And when I realized that, this is something they put in our heads so that we will spend all of our money trying to get thin, which we can't do because diets don't work. That just means they make, you know, that's why in every diet they say, you can lose so and so much weight if you have the willpower. That means that when it fails, which it will, it's your fault, you blame yourself. And then you go back to them because you lost a few pounds in the beginning of that thing. So you just think you failed. Really interesting, Sophie. Thank you very much. And I know the listeners have enjoyed it too. At BBC Women's Hour, if you want to add to it, I've said it before, I'll say it again. There's not a person alive that doesn't have some

sort of relationship with food. And almost all of us can honestly say that our relationship probably isn't 100% healthy. Maybe there is somebody out there with not a care in the world about food and their body, but I don't know. I'm not sure I've ever met them. Sophie, thank you very much. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. And Sophie's book is called Happy Fat. Let's go time travelling back to 1979. This week, we are marking the 40th anniversary of the election of Margaret Thatcher, Britain's first female prime minister. Now this is fantastic. A relatively youthful John Sargent is trying to keep up with Margaret Thatcher on a

campaign trip to a factory in Bristol. If yesterday was a brisk start to Mrs Thatcher's campaign tour, today was even brisker. At one stage the opposition leader almost broke into a run as she forged her way through the gaggle of pressmen to look round a factory in Bristol which makes domestic products. She showed particular interest in an ironing board cover. They're an absolute booze, because they don't scorch. They don't scorch.

In fact, there have been times when I've had a sheet underneath and it's scorched a sheet underneath, but not the aluminium. They're marvelous. I didn't know you made those. They're terrific. Margaret Thatcher, close to her pomp, you might say, back on the election trail in 1979. So we can talk now to two listeners

who responded to a plea I made on the programme yesterday. Two very different stories. Val Law was a constituency agent for the Conservative Party during that election in 79. And Chris Beatty was a first time voter. Val, first of all, Val, good morning to you. Good morning. Now tell me a little bit about your working life. How did you get to be a constituency agent? And where were you working? Well I actually started being a constituency agent back in 1974. What you have to do is a period of training you get your certificates of which train you in sort of election law and constituency organisation and I sort of looked around and

Nelson and Cone the vacancy in Nelson and Cone came up and it was a critical marginal seat and it was something I wanted to get my teeth into. Yeah, Labour held the seat, but the Tories were hopeful of gaining it. That's right. It was the 11th most marginal seat in the country, I think, Labour held marginal. And we had held it up until October 1974. The previous Conservative member of Parliament, David Waddington, had won the by-election in 1968 and then won in 74 and then October 74 just lost the seat. So we were hopeful that we could get it back.

Now, to some of our listeners who were not born, I said yesterday I was this incredibly nerdy 14-year-old schoolgirl in 1979. I really did follow this election. I was absolutely gripped by it. Did you sense a different sort of excitement as you went about your business? Oh, certainly. We'd had this sort of phony election. We'd all been expecting the election to be called back in October of 1978.

But Jim Callaghan decided not to go at that time. And I think that everybody who got sort of increasingly fed up as the winter of discontent sort of ran on and bodies were unburied and piles of rubbish were building up in the streets. So when the election finally came, I think everybody was really keen to get on with it. And of course, there was no internet, there was no way of really knowing what people were thinking and feeling. What did you sense? There was a way. It's called talking to people. What? Knocking on doors. Yes, that's how we found out what people were thinking. And we were pretty sure that there was a lot to be confident about. Really? What were people saying?

Oh, well, they were just saying it's time for a change. We want rid of this lot. We really think it's time to let somebody else have a go. And that was coming back sort of in a very positive way from all our canvassers. It was such a timepiece hearing John Sochent and Margaret Thatcher at the factory and the mention of the ironing board cover. You, I know, organised or did you accompany Margaret Thatcher to a factory? Yes, I accompanied her to a factory in our constituency of Nelson Cone. It was a denim weaving company, Smith and Nephew.

And so we had a tour of their mill. And how did that go? It was more like a royal visit than a politician. Everybody was, if I say they were practically curtsying, you might get the idea. But no, they really were extremely pleased to see her. And as we left, everybody was actually cheering and waving and crowding up all the windows and all the sort of loading bays. So she really did go down a storm

with people there. And you can't have expected that? No, we expected, you know, a sort of quiet, polite reception, but we really didn't expect the sort of excitement and the thrill of the sort of reception she got. And I gather you had to encourage her to turn around and acknowledge the people at the factory. Yes I had to she was on her way out and sort of bustling forward as ever and I sort of turned around myself and saw all these people crowding up to get a better view of her. And so I asked her if she would turn around and she sort of said, no, no, no, we're not just doing photo opportunities. And I said, no, it's a bit more than that.

Please turn around. And she did. And she was absolutely astonished when she saw what was happening behind her. So at the end of that day, Val, did you think to yourself, you know what, I do think this is going to happen, something is going on here? Oh, yes, certainly. You could feel it.

There was an atmosphere that said we are getting somewhere, you know, and we're absolutely full of confidence there. Val, thank you very much. Are you still politically engaged? No, I'm afraid not. That ended quite some time ago. No, I'm now peacefully retired and looking after my doodles. Right. Well, it sounds rather fabulous.

Thank you very much, Val. I really appreciate you talking to us this morning. Val Law, who was a constituency agent for the Tory party in Lancashire in 1979. Chris Beatty grew up. Where did you grow up, Chris? Good morning to you. I grew up on Wirral. We did live abroad as children for a few? Good morning to you. I grew up on Wirral. We did live abroad as children for a few years,

but most of my life's been on Wirral. Right, and that's where you're very happily living now. Yes! You were a first-time voter then, 1979. I was, I was. You'd just started work, so a very exciting time in your life. Yeah, I'd started work the year before with the Ministry of Defence. I was a nobody clerk, but it was great money, and I was going out a lot and meeting all sorts of people.

And I really was on a bit of a buzz. And my mum had always been a Tory, really. And I wasn't necessarily going to follow her at all. But I felt quite excited about the fact that a woman would be in charge. And I thought, oh, if a woman's in charge, she'll push women, because I was into sort of reading a lot about women's rights and stuff. And I felt like I was, I wanted an equal world

and I expected it to be equal. But I remember going out to a club, it was a little sort of Cadbury's club, actually, with some relatives, and there were these old blokes. And they all looked like the old blokes on telly at the time, you know, sitting around with like fags, big tummies and sort of old shirts and stuff like you got on the news I called all the politicians seemed to be at that time and all the union people and I said I tried to chat to them about politics and I said oh what do you think you'll vote for and this person said

I'm not voting for that moody woman and, oh, that makes me want to vote for her. And what about, go on, say more, go on. Well, no, I did really. I did honestly think, innocently, that a woman in charge not necessarily would do all the political stuff I wanted because I wasn't that politically aware, you know, I wasn't some sort of genius at the time. But I thought she would put women in parliament. I said, oh, we'll see women as like a chancellor or a woman as a home secretary or something.

And none of it happened. And I was quite disillusioned. Within about a year, it was obviously, it was just awful, really. And none of that was going to happen, but it was going to be even worse than not that not happening. And I was a lifelong labour boater after a year so that was the impact that Margaret Thatcher ended up having on you but isn't it interesting that it was the attitude of of some of those blokes and we don't we can't you well well I'm in danger of generalizing but to be fair oh no yeah you did as well not all men no no not all

men but there is no doubt because I was around at the time too, that there were men like that who did, in your case, propelled you in the other direction, albeit briefly. I think they propelled me that way because I got a sense it wasn't because she was a... If they'd said, but she's a Tory, you know, she wants these policies, this, that, the other, you know, National Health Service, all that. I would have... They didn't want to engage with me because I was an 18 year old I could tell that I was a woman a girl and they didn't want her because she was a woman and I sort of sensed that

and I think I'd said you know there was so much literature and stuff and reading I'd done as a child was all about men being heroes men do this women just sit around and cry or fall over and need men to help them and stuff and I did start that year reading a lot of literature um written by women about women um and I just felt it was unjust and totally irrational and I think yeah that's what I suppose I was trying to say that those people if they'd engage with me and explained a little bit about it, then it would have made me think. But I didn't want to do that because they just want to dismiss it. I know you dismiss me. Yeah.

And that was the atmosphere of the time. You have been ever since that flirtation with the Conservatives. You've largely voted Labour or Green, I think, occasionally. Green occasionally and Lib Dem locally sometimes. Right, OK. Oh, you are the absolute floating voter. You are. Blimey, Chris. I wouldn't say I was a floating voter,

but I tend to sort of, you know, I'd like a bit more... I don't know if that's a bit political. I'd like a bit more of an amalgamation between the three. OK, well, I hope you find your dream party one day. It will never happen. Well, no, you don't know, Chris. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. Thank you.

A little bit of an insight there from Chris Beatty, who was a first-time voter in 1979. If that's bringing back memories for you, then share them with us. I think an email is best. We can certainly squeeze some emails into the podcast today. So you can do that via the website, bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour.

And as ever, we are looking for a balanced range of opinion, aren't we always? Now, exam season upon us yet again. GCSEs for me, and I'm not doing particularly well helping out with the revision as far as I can gather.

If you're stressed, if you're a parent, if you're a pupil, if you're a teacher, Bank Holiday Monday, that's next Monday, incredibly, there's another Bank Holiday. And we're going to do a phone in on exams and stress and how best, if you're a parent or a carer, you can help the person doing the exam. So that's a note in your diary, if that's you or somebody in your family, exams and how to cope on Women's Hour on Bank Holiday Monday. And on Tuesday, I'm delighted to say the programme is live in Dublin, great city,

as we mark the changes for women in Ireland since the abortion referendum. So that's Dublin at the venue for next Tuesday's edition of Women's Hour. Now, I mentioned we were going to discuss rosacea which is a skin condition and we're going to mention the fact that it well it's important to say I think that although men and women can get this condition it can have a more profound impact on women. That perhaps is a generalisation but we can discuss that with our guests not least because of course women's appearance tends to be a topic for discussion. Emma Wedgworth is a consultant dermatologist and we have with us as well the beauty blogger and social media manager

Lex Gillis. Welcome to Lex and to Emma, good to see you both. Let's start then simply Emma with a definition of rosacea, what is it? Rosacea is a chronic inflammatory skin condition which results in people having red skin, you can have spots and your skin can be very sensitive and flushing is also quite a key aspect of rosacea. And why does anybody get it? Our understanding so far is that rosacea is partly genetic and partly associated with lifestyle changes. So often people will get rosacea a little bit later in life. UV light, so sunlight is something that's thought to drive it. There are certain things in our lifestyle, so food, alcohol, smoking, it's not the cause, but it can certainly trigger it off in somebody that's susceptible to it.

Right. And the treatments, well, they do exist. It's not that this isn't untreatable, but I gather you can't be cured of it as such. Absolutely right. You can't be cured. But that's the case in so many skin conditions. And I think that really shouldn't detract from the fact that there are so many effective ways that we can manage rosacea. And for the vast majority of people, there are lots of very positive influences that we can have. It doesn't always have to be pharmaceutical. So we can talk about lifestyle changes.

We can use skincare that can be really helpful. And then obviously medical treatments, of which there are many. Yeah, okay. Lex, when did you start to exhibit the symptoms of it? So I was diagnosed at 21. But looking back at photos, I think I probably had it before that. I'd always been very pink skinned. I'd flush very easily if I drank or did exercise, anything like that. And I think I just assumed that that's what my skin type was, that that's always what my skin would do. And it's only around the age of 21 that my skin just started to get worse and worse. So if I went out drinking, the flush would appear, but then it wouldn't go down for hours and hours

and hours and it would become really dark purple. My face would be so warm, like I had sunburn. It would itch. It would throb. It was just swelling. It was just not a normal reaction to something like that. Was this something that other people commented on? Or was it something you were just aware of because you knew it was happening? I would feel very aware of it, but I would try and convince myself that no one else would notice.

But people would always comment. always um would make jokes my friends would sort of ask uh if I was drunk or if I was embarrassed or you know I've had experiences in the past where I've been at work and I was talking to my boss and it was a stressful situation so my skin started flaring up and one of my colleagues asked if I fancied my boss in front of my boss so things like that where I think ignorance of the condition doesn't help because people do make jokes and they make unkind comments which is partly the reason why I try to raise awareness not only you know I want to help sufferers but I also want to raise awareness with other people so that we can escape those kind of comments through education. I have to say, obviously, this is radio and people will be able to see images of you, by the way, on the Woman's Hour Instagram account, which is at BBC Woman's Hour if you want to follow us on Instagram.

It's not obvious to me that you have any kind of skin condition. So do you mind me asking, are you wearing a lot of makeup or are you not having a flare up at the moment? I am wearing makeup. A lot of trial and error went into getting my makeup to the point where I like to think that people wouldn't know that I have rosacea. I don't. I don't. Thank you. That's very kind. I can feel through talking about rosacea and sitting in this situation, I can feel my skin kind of pulsinging underneath my makeup so I know that when I get home and take my makeup off I will be probably having a flare-up but I do offer lots of tips on how to cover your skin and how to

calm it when you are having a flare-up so there are ways you can and like you said at the beginning it's I know that those kind of options aren't really available for men which is another another thing that I think can be quite tricky. Let's talk about that. Not available for men. They would be available for men if men were going to wear makeup or society allowed men to wear makeup, to be fair. Emma, what would you say about that? I do have some male patients who will use concealer at certain times, but I think there is a stigma attached to it still. Skincare though, however, men I think are increasingly getting used to and starting to make different skincare choices

like women have probably been doing, a lot of women have been doing for many years. So I think you're right, there is still stigma around men wearing camouflage and we tend to call it camouflage because essentially it's being used not just for cosmetic purposes but really to cover up a skin condition. So I do see men that do that. You've really got to be careful, though, presumably, in applying anything to already stressed skin, haven't you? I mean, I imagine some of the products that teenagers particularly

will smear all over their faces could do real damage. Absolutely right. And I think skincare choices, particularly in the context of rosacea, which is very sensitive skin, is a huge part of the way that we treat it and is often something that, as a medical profession, we don't always offer advice on. But keeping skincare really simple, avoiding harsh products, harsh exfoliants, scrubs, toners, alcohol-based products

is a huge element of actually treating rosacea. Yeah, I mean, how many of us as teenagers could be resistant to a scrub? I was scrubbing away for about 25 years, it seems, at times. I'm sure everybody's been there. Can I just put some questions to you from listeners? This is an interesting one. It's somebody who says that she's read that people with rosacea have a larger number of mites on their faces.

Other research suggests that zinc can be helpful. There's also some evidence that anti-scabies cream helps because scabies are mites. You're nodding, so that's all right. I noticed, too, that the redness in my face was in line with the skin, which is above the surface of my pillow. And she's changed her pillows, basically, and bought new pillows. Is that sensible? So some synthetic fibres can be quite irritant to the skin. So I'd always advise you use natural cotton fibres. So that may be perhaps a process by which quite irritant to the skin. So I'd always advise that you use natural cotton fibres.

So that may be perhaps a process by which it can irritate the skin. I think the mite one is very interesting. So the reader's absolutely right. There's a mite which sits on our skin called demodex, which has been associated with rosacea. But nobody knows, is it just that the demodex sits there because it enjoys the different skin that's associated with rosacea, or is it that the demodex

causes rosacea and it's been an ongoing controversy we still don't know we don't but we still have some treatments which have been quite effective against demodex mite and anti-mite treatments and anti-mite creams which actually are very promising treatment for rosacea and this listener is 55 and actually she she makes the point that she has rosacea and it does affect her. And she says, but I feel vain and small minded being bothered by it. I do try to keep it in perspective, but it's your window to the world. And it's hard not to feel judged by the people you meet. I bet you understand that, don't you, Lex? Absolutely. And I hear that a lot from readers.

It's they don't want to bother their doctors because they feel like it's not a severe enough thing to be going to their doctor about and they feel superficial to be so upset by something that's what some people would see as just skin but like that person says it is the one thing that you present to the world and you are judged on it we we all do it without even knowing you do judge people and um you know it's it's it's very difficult to go into a situation and feel so vulnerable with something that you don't feel comfortable with and I've been in situations before where I was doing a talk at work and I was really prepared I've been preparing for weeks and I stood up and a man in the room said you look really flushed if you're not ready we can do this another time and he assumed that because

my face was red that I was not prepared and I was nervous and so although we like to think that we are judged on our abilities a lot of the time we are judged on our appearance and I think that I would recommend if anyone is feeling that they that their skin affects their day-to-day life and affects how they feel about themselves and they should talk to their doctors about it because it doesn't have to be like that. No I'm very well glad you made that point but I just wonder Emma whether every single GP is as sympathetic as they should be? I think on the whole our GPs do an amazing job but they're not specialists. Diplomatics. It's true it's a difficult environment at the moment in the NHS but I think they're not specialists and there are many

different treatments according to the type of rosacea you have and I think that's a really key point because not every treatment is going to work for every person there are a number of different types of rosacea well can I just put a really quick question to you from a listener who says what should I do from a cleansing and moisturizing point of view what would either of you say about that cleansing wise keep it really simple avoid foaming cleansers use an unfragranced cream-based cleanser which is very gentle on the skin and a soothing moisturizer again no fragrance no unnecessary anti-aging ingredients something to really soothe. Can you just name a couple of brands that might be helpful just for the purposes of this?

No. It's very difficult for me to name exact sort of brands but go to your pharmacist pick something non-fragranced and very soothing and it will repair skin barrier function and a very gentle cleanser thank you very much that's dr emma wedgworth who's a consultant dermatologist and thanks to to lex gillis appreciate your help thanks thank you very much now to party bags do you or don't you and why did any of us ever do them in the first place? And where are we in terms of the environment? Let's have a quick burst of some really delightful young people. Francesca's about to have her eighth party.

Henrietta Harrison talked to her and her friends about what they'd like to see in a goodie bag. I think sweets should be in a goodie bag. What are your favourite sweets? My favourite sweets are strawberry laces. What about you, Peony? What do you think should be in a goodie bag? Tampastics. What are your favourite sweets? My favourite sweets are strawberry laces. What about you, Peony? What do you think should be in a goodie bag? Tampastics. What are they? Harry bows with sugar all over them.

What about you, Phoenix? What do you think should be in a goodie bag? I think there should be lots of things, like what girls like, like bracelets or necklaces and sweets. What about you, Amelia? What do you think about sweets being in a goodie bag? I like sweets. Probably my favourite sweet would be a rainbow slice because they're really sweet and they're rainbow,

so who doesn't like that? Some people think that children have too many sweets, as it is, and some parents, they don't like you getting sweets given to you at the end of parties. What do you think about that, Phoenix? I agree as well, but as a party, it's kind of like a treat for being there, and it's like a thank-you present for saying thank you for being at my party. Okay.

And the other thing that you can be given sometimes at parties, a bit like the unicorn, is things like this pad. What do you think? I think it's cool because, as I said, I don't really like unicorns but as it is a unicorn it's special to me because I love rainbows and yeah. I think the pad is probably the best because you could write notes and stuff like that and you can write stories in it. So has anybody got an idea that plastic's not a good thing? Has anyone ever learnt about that? If you drop a plastic bag into the ocean, some turtles might eat it thinking it's a jellyfish and then die. So in which case perhaps we shouldn't be having goodie bags full of plastic toys, do you think maybe? I think parties for like having fun and not to worry about things and just enjoying yourself.

Party bags are the best in the store of parties. And I'm going to say a big thank you to all the parents who arrange parties for children. Where do you find a child as lovely as that? I've never had one. Francesca Peony and Phoenix Henrietta Harrison was the reporter. Now let's talk to Lucy Parsons, whose children are nine and six. Isabel Thomas is a science writer. Her children are six, nine and ten.

Lucy, party bags, are you guilty or not guilty? Well, I try not to be too guilty. They drive me crazy. I've done things over the years and done things to try to mitigate the whole plastic thing but you know I'd really rather they didn't exist they are a pain in the neck which is why I abandoned them I think at the earliest possible opportunity um but do children expect one routinely um yes I think they do I think you know you see kids lining up at the end of a party waiting for their party bag before they even know if they're actually there.

And my sister said it is the best way of getting her son out of a party. Bribe him. Bribe him out with a party bag. So there is this kind of sense of entitlement, definitely, I think, amongst a lot of children. Right, which is outrageous. Isabel, what do we do? Environmentally, what should we do here? Well, what I like to do is say not that we

should totally give them up all together because they are important for children they are important for parents because we want to create the best memories but instead i've been trying to look for different ways so alternative things we can do that actually turn out to be more creative and fun so for example um a lot of people are giving books now and it's really nice when you have a book coming home or even giving out natural objects like shells or doing something during the party that children enjoy doing and they get something to take home with them. So things like painting rocks, decorating rocks, decorating cupcakes we've done, which has been excellent, decorating plant pots or even science activities like making your own slime, packaging up in things like yoghurt pots that you've collected and sending that home as a gift instead. And children are just as happy, often more happy because they've made it themselves. Just as happy? Are they really?

They just like to come home and show what they've done. And if they feel proud that they've made it, they're really happy with that. Isabel and Lucy, and if you'd like to hear more about party bags, well, you can. In the Woman's Hour Parenting podcast, which will be available around this time next week. We've got some more ideas for you in that podcast. Now, I have to say, a really overwhelming reaction to the conversation I had with Sophie Hagen. Some of you loved Sophie and what she had to say. I think everybody liked Sophie, but some of you did take issue with what she was saying. So let me go through some of the emails.

Liz described herself as furious. I have never been so cross about any viewpoint as I was today about Sophie, who thinks that fat is OK in every way. I think fat is unhealthy and unattractive. Just eat less and eat different stuff. I'm angry. You're justifying self-abuse by eating badly. That's the view of Liz. From Anita, if you're eating cake or chocolate, then you're not on a diet and you're likely to put on weight. Dieting requires the right frame of mind. Being overweight isn't desirable, mainly because it will cost society hugely. Trying to justify being overweight and

suggesting that it's okay isn't helpful. People need to come to terms with the need to change their eating habits permanently, as I'm trying to, and maybe need psychological input to overcome their addiction to food. Sorry, but if there are going to be food shortages, overeating and being fat is going to be increasingly unacceptable. People also need to exercise. That's from Anita, who as she says, she acknowledges during the course of the email that she is trying to make changes herself. From Jack, I'm listening to Sophie. There is no mystery to weight loss. Eat less, move more.

I count calories and if you do it honestly, you weigh everything and you write the numbers down, of course it works. Yeah, Jack, I've got to say, it sounds a bit of a joyless existence, that. Anyway, if Sophie or anyone is happy being fat, great, but what I was getting from her was denial. It just isn't possible.

If you eat sensibly and fewer calories, then you will lose weight. From Krish, I own a gym and we regularly and successfully help people live better quality lives and learn to love their bodies. I applaud Sophie for her attitude towards weight. We totally should stop hating rather than forcing people to change to suit the haters. We never shame fat people at my gym. Failure is part of the route to success because we're human, but we do show people how to love and celebrate their bodies for what they can do. And once people recognise that what they eat affects how they perform in and out of the gym, they soon embrace a healthier way of eating successfully. Because

being overweight is unhealthy, says Krish, you will die younger. It's hard, really, really hard to change mental attitudes towards food that actually have been developed across a lifetime. But it isn't impossible. It's just hard, says Krish. Thank you. And let's just go through a few more. This is from Jill on Twitter, this one. Thank you so much, Sophie, for speaking out. I am terrified of gaining weight and your words brought tears to my eyes from relief. It made me feel I have the ability

to get over my disordered thinking around food. From Hazel. I'm a little overweight, but what makes me angry is going to the doctor. Whatever you go with, whether it's flu or a sore throat or a sore hand, the treatment seems to be lose weight and take more exercise. This mantra is all pervading, but this listener puts everything in perspective. I had a baby at 42, then cancer twice. My body never recovered. I'm much happier not wasting my time obsessing about my size. This is an area that we've discussed many times on the programme. I have no doubt we'll return to it because it is hugely, well, you can tell from the reaction from the audience, it's not an area that we seem to have achieved any real agreement on. But I found Sophie a really, really interesting guest. And whatever you think of her opinions, she was great to spend time with.

Thanks to everybody who contacted the programme today. Jenny is here tomorrow with a podcast which will be all about the legacy of Margaret Thatcher, focusing on how Britain dealt with its first female prime minister back in 1979 and why some feminists felt so conflicted and perhaps still feel conflicted by Margaret Thatcher. That's Tomorrow with Jenny. Thanks for listening today. Oi, you. While you're here, have a listen to this, would you? For us, for us, for us. An environmental thriller for BBC Sounds. I'm so sorry. Meat pan. For why, dear? Have a listen to this, would you? idea what it is. Forest 404. Nine part thriller. Nine part talk.

Nine part soundscape. Starring Pearl Mackie, Tanya Moody, and Pippa Haywood. With theme music by Bonobos. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. Subscribe now. I'm Sarah Treleaven,

and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.