Woman's Hour - Solitude, Apprentice winner Rachel Woolford, Personal space, Kids and smartphones

Episode Date: April 19, 2024

Nearly a quarter of five-to-seven-year-olds now have their own smartphone according to OFCOM. Social media use also rose in the same age group over the last year with nearly two in five using the messaging service WhatsApp, despite its minimum age of 13. The communications regulator in its annual study of children's relationship with technology warned parental enforcement of rules 'appeared to be diminishing'. It also said the figures should be a 'wake up call' for the industry to do more to protect children. Anita Rani is joined by Daisy Greenwell, co-founder of a campaigning organisation Smartphone Free Childhood.Earlier this week Reverend Grace Thomas posted a photo on social media of a male passenger having chosen to sit next to her on a practically empty bus. The attached message read, 'Please don't do this… it immediately puts me on edge. I can't be alone in this, surely.' It turns out she wasn’t; her post has attracted more than 10 million views, 150,000 likes and hundreds of comments that include women with similar experiences. Reverend Grace joins Anita along with Michael Conroy, founder of Men At Work, who trains professionals that work with boys and young men.On average, we spend one-third of our waking life alone. Anita talks to psychologist Netta Weinstein, Professor of Psychology at the University of Reading, who has co-written a new book called Solitude: The Science and Power of Being Alone. Whether you love it or try to avoid it, she explains the benefits of being alone and gives us some tips on how to be better at it. The final episode of the 18th series of The Apprentice aired last night. After a battle that saw boutique gyms go head-to-head with a pie delivery service, Lord Alan Sugar decided to invest two hundred and fifty thousand pounds into a luxury gym business run by Rachel Woolford. Anita speaks to the entrepreneur about her victory.This weekend it’s the 100 year anniversary of the death of Marie Corelli, the promoter of Shakespeare’s house and a bestselling novelist in her own right; she outsold HG Wells and Arthur Conan Doyle, publishing 25 books which were devoured in their millions by English readers, Americans and those in the colonies. Anouska Lester, an academic talks to Anita about Marie Corelli.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Donald MacDonald

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. What a programme we have lined up for you today. We're talking about solitude today. Maybe right now you are by yourself. How are you feeling about it? Well, solitude has a bad rep and it's often conflated with loneliness, according to a new book. However, there can be great benefits to having alone time.

So how do you feel about solitude? Maybe it's not a physical act, but something more internal, because even in a busy environment, it's very possible to feel lonely. But what about quality alone time? Is it something you give yourself regularly? Retreats? Spa days? A day to do nothing but read, go for a walk alone or a walk with the dog? Or is it something you wish you could do for yourself if it wasn't for the kids, your partner, parents, job,

basically life getting in the way of your quality alone time? Do you wish you could create space to spend time alone in contemplation, to be more introspective, or does the thought of it terrify you and you're very much happier surrounded by your people? Your thoughts on solitude, the word solitude, how you feel about it, get in touch with me in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email me via our website or you can WhatsApp me or voice note me even, especially if you're by yourself and you feel like sending me a message.

It's 03700 100 444. Then we're going to discuss personal space or rather personal space on public transport, especially if you're a woman. This is because Reverend Grace Thomas was sitting on an empty bus. A chap gets on and decides to sit next to her. She shares her experience on social media and it goes viral. Turns out she's not alone in her experience. Has it happened to you? What did you do about it?

What do you do about it? It's happened to me a few times on late night trains coming home after long filming days. In fact, once I got up and moved, the other time I was saved by the conductor. Both times I felt very cross and vulnerable. But how about you get in touch with me in the same way? 84844. Then if you haven't yet watched the final of The Apprentice, spoiler alert, the winner will be talking to me.

Spoiler alert, those of you with sharp minds may well be able to deduce who it is. Well, because they're being celebrated on Woman's Hour. And Marie Carelli, have you heard of her? An author who in her time outsold her contemporaries Arthur Conan Doyle and HG Wells. So why do we all not know her name? That will be rectified within the hour. That text number once again, your thoughts and opinions on everything we're discussing this morning more than welcome 84844. But first, nearly a quarter of five to seven-year-olds now have their own smartphone according to Ofcom. Social media use alone

rose in the same age group over the last year with nearly two in five using the messaging service WhatsApp, despite its minimum age being 13. The communications regulator, in its annual study of children's relationship with technology, warned parental enforcement of rules appeared to be diminishing. It also said the figures should be a wake-up call for the industry to do more to protect children. Well, I'm joined by Daisy Greenwell, co-founder of a campaigning organisation, Smartphone Free Childhood, to discuss this. Morning, Daisy. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Morning. Thank you for having me. Nearly a quarter of five to seven-year-olds in the UK have their own smartphones. What do you make of that?

Yeah, it's extremely worrying, isn't it, to hear that, you you know we've got mounting evidence we've got mounting evidence about their harms um but there's basically not enough info out there for parents most of them are unaware of the age like restrictions only a third of parents know that the correct age is 13 for social media and i think a big problem is that we've got very little guidance from the nhs or government or schools around when children should actually get smartphones. So, yeah, you know, we're not surprised to hear this new data. And it's, you know, we think something needs to be done about it, government and schools and the NHS really need to help parents in this problem. OK, I'm going to ask you a really basic question, which is what is actually wrong with giving a younger child a smartphone?

Why is it actually bad for them well there's mounting data to show that um firstly that children are spending more and more time on online um on screen so um i think eight to ten year olds now spend six hours a day on screens 11 to 14 year olds spend nine and um this current generation of teens and children is more lonely depressed and anxious and suicidal than any before. And that directly correlates with the arrival of the smartphone in our lives. It's only been 10 years since we've had smartphones. And, you know, in the UK, for example, the likelihood of a young person having a mental health issue has increased by 50 percent in the last three years. Eating disorders amongst UK children have doubled in the last six years and the number

of under 18s taking antidepressants has surged by 44% since 2015. But that's not all because of smartphones though, is it? No, but the Children's Commissioner has said that, for example, with the eating disorders, she thinks that that's correlated to the amount of time that kids were spending on smartphones during lockdown. Everyone knows that in you know parents were stuck at home with kids they were trying to work and screen use went up massively in that time and so yeah you know many people would say that this is definitely um this is the biggest change that's happened in childhood over the last 10 years and that is why the mental health issues that we're

seeing are coming now there is research that suggests some positive impacts on wellbeing as well, such as helping children stay connected with friends, reducing feelings of loneliness and isolation, and this is in older age groups. Could the same apply to younger kids? Well, you know, we're not saying that all screen use or smartphones are bad. We know that they're brilliant for all those things, but we think only at the right age.

The trouble is that they've been designed by the brightest minds in Silicon Valley to be addictive. That's how their business model works. You know, engagement is what they call it. And the more money they make, the more time that we spend clicking and scrolling, the more money they make. And so these devices, they're designed for adults, adults basically but they're in the hands of children and um we know now we didn't

know when they first came out but they what the implications would be and we do now and we think we need to do something about it and you can't blame parents for handing the phone over to children because you know as you said they've only been around for such a short space of time and everybody's sort of figuring it out no one knows the right answers you've got three children four six and eight tell me about your experience are they asking for phones not luckily not but there there are phones in their classes in the six and the eight year olds classes um so i think my daughter now because this has all happened we've basically in february i sent a post out on social media which went viral and thousands of people joined a WhatsApp group

that me and my friend Claire had started, which was to support each other in not getting smartphones. We didn't realise how many other people out there felt the same. So my daughter's now well aware. She keeps saying, so, Mum, am I not going to get one before I'm, like, 18? When is she going to get one? What's the right age? I think, like, I'll get her a Nokia. You know, maybe when she going to get one? What's the right age? I think like I'll get her a Nokia

you know maybe when she goes to secondary school and we can keep in touch she can text her friends she can play Snake but I think it's not safe

like to have one before the age of 16 so I'm going to try and hold off until then but I know how hard it is I know

if your whole class has one it's just almost impossible for parents not to crack and to get their child one because you run the risk of either making them ostracized from the social group or the social life goes online, everyone's Snapchatting and WhatsApping. So that's why we set up our organization, Smartphone Free Childhood, to try and give parents community and help them to get together and make packs in their schools not to get smartphones.

And what's the reaction been to you setting up the organisation? How have other parents felt about it? It's been amazing. It's been absolutely astonishing. We just had no idea that there were so many other people out there that felt the same. People have set up their own smartphone-free childhood groups in every county in Britain. Explain what you're doing, because you're encouraging

a parent-led approach to not having having phones right explain it to everybody yeah so i mean it started off with one whatsapp group with me and my friend claire which was called parents united for smartphone free childhood and we you know thousands of people joined and we now we encourage them to get together with parents in their schools start their own smartphone free childhood group in their schools and talk to their schools about what they can do about this problem and how they can get together and find community and solidarity and not getting a phone. Because basically, if five of your kids' best friends in their class don't have a phone, that solves the problem. So we think that's one approach, but we know we can't make this all about parents and parental choice because it's a systemic issue and it needs to have a systemic solution we need to get better regulation around these phones and better regulation around social media you know uk um these tech companies aren't complying with uk law we know that all these children are underage are on there and they're not removing

them from the site and we think that the in fact it should be 16 we should raise the age whereas children are on social media to 16. I said earlier that you can't blame parents, but you know what? I'm going to flip it the other way. Maybe you can blame parents. I'm going to, you know, for allowing children to have phones. You know, parents are busy and tired and it's so tempting. We've all done it. My kids spend a heck of a lot of time watching tv i really don't think it's fair to blame parents and like firstly i think they don't know lots of people don't know that they're not good for their children and secondly they're just

so unbelievably addictive i'm addicted to my phone you probably i think we all are um and you can't you know you might give them the phone think i'll control use it'll be okay but it's almost impossible once it's in the child's hand to get it out of them. We hear all sorts of anecdotes from parents in our community saying, you know, it's like removing a drug from an addict. You know, they actually get violent. You know, we've heard stories about that. So I don't think it's fair to blame parents. Some campaigners want age limits to be introduced for smartphone use and existing ones raised for social media. Esther Jay, the mother of Brianna,

has called for a complete ban on social media for under-16s. What do you say to that? I think that would be sensible. I think it would be great and I think children would welcome that. We hear so many times from children saying, I would love it not to exist. It makes my life so much harder. It fuels incredible amounts of anxiety. But I have to be on it because everyone else is. I can't not. children saying i would love it not to exist it makes my life so much harder um it's like fuels

incredible amounts of anxiety but i have to be on it because everyone else is i can't not but and it would be you know i'd love to have grown up in a time where there was no social media so i think that we would welcome that that would be brilliant and and we also believe that there should be special phones for children though you know fully sort of regulated they'll have maps on them they'll have um spotify you know all the things regulated they'll have maps on them they'll have um spotify you know all the things that they want but they won't have social media or an internet browser because you know it's not just social media on the internet there's all sorts of harms that they can experience their porn um and all you know the sort of harmful content that's on those

on the internet which we talk about a lot on Woman's Hour. But so Daisy, for the parents who are listening right now, who are just about to hand the phone over to the five-year-old because they need to get on with whatever it is they've got to do because they're busy and they're rushed and, you know, it's just easy. What would you say? How are you doing it? Well, we would say, you know, think about it first. Get together with people in your community who are also concerned about phones and find find ways to like we need to

change the way that childhood is going you know we need to step back and think is this the kind of childhood we really want for our children to have um is this the society society we want to create we need to get back to a more play-based childhood and not a screen-based childhood, which we've found ourselves slipping into in recent years. Daisy Greenwell, the co-founder of an organisation called Smartphone Free Childhood, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. Lots of you getting in touch about this. Chris says, we work in schools with staff and parents encouraging these parents' pacts to delay phone use. When all parents get together from an early age, there is a huge sense of relief. Someone else said, parents need to take responsibility for finding out about age limits on social media sites. They shouldn't rely on being spoon-fed information to protect their children.

It is their responsibility. Smartphones prevent the formation of normal face-to-face relationships. Someone else said when children do move onto smartphones parents can be heard, can be ahead of the game and lock them down to just text and calls. They do not need to have access to social media or the internet but can fit in visually. Parents need to protect children digitally in the way they do in the real world. Keep your thoughts coming in. 84844 is the number to text. Now, earlier this week, Reverend Grace Thomas posted a photo on social media with a message attached.

The photo was one she'd taken of herself on an empty bus with a male passenger having chosen to sit right next to her. Neither of them is identifiable. Her message read, please don't do this. Even if there's nothing behind your decision to sit next to me on an otherwise empty bus, it immediately puts me on the on edge. I can't be alone in this, surely. Well, it turns out she wasn't. So far, Grace's tweet has had more than 4,000 responses, 10 million views, 150,000 likes and 8,000 retweets. Well, Grace joins me now, as does Michael Conroy, founder of Men at Work,

who trains teachers, youth workers and social workers working with boys and young men. Welcome to both of you. Grace, I'm going to come to you first. Thank you, Michael. Nice of you to join us again on Woman's Hour. Grace, tell us what happened to you on the bus. Hi, Anita. Thanks for having me on. Really, I took an early bus. I was in my gym gear. I wasn't really paying much attention to what was going on around me, but I was conscious that a man had sat next to me. And I looked up and the bus was virtually empty. I don't know what was going on upstairs, but I just kept thinking,

I don't understand. I've just kept feeling a bit uncomfortable and wondering why he'd sat next to me when he could have sat anywhere else. Now he didn't do anything untoward, anything other than that. But for me in that public space, I still felt on edge. And part of that is because I know what can happen and what has happened to my own daughters on public transport and what's happened to friends.

And you feel that sense of threat, even if it's something as simple as somebody sitting next to you on a bus. Did you say anything to him or try to move? What was your response? I didn't say anything to him. My journey was, it was a very brief encounter. My journey was nearly towards the end. And a lot of the responses that I've had have been, you know, did you move? Did you say anything? And actually my response is I can understand that that could happen, that that might be a way to deal with it but actually there's an underlying issue here and that needs addressing first because um it shouldn't really be me that um regulates my behavior um or tries to get out of an uncomfortable situation that i haven't created yeah i want to pick up on what you said earlier you said because you know what that what that

could lead to because of what's happened to your daughters so can can you tell us a bit more about that what do you mean what and what happened's happened to your daughters so can can you tell us a bit more about that what do you mean what and what happened what happened to your daughters yeah absolutely so what my daughters when they were both children so under 18 have had experiences at bus stops and on buses where they have been pursued by older men and one instance my daughter was sat on a bus and A gentleman sat next to her, leaned across as she was looking on her phone, was clearly making her very, very uncomfortable. She got up to go off and he got up to follow her. She got really panicked at this stage. So she got off, he got off the bus and then she quickly jumped back on again as the bus was moving.

She then waited a couple more stops to get off, by which point she didn't know where she was. So she rang us in a panic, absolutely distraught. And, you know, this is the reality. And my tweet, which I, you know, I tend to get about 10 likes on my tweets. So this was quite something. This was a big new experience for me this week. But what we saw time and time again in the responses was how this had happened to so many, predominantly women, and so many other people, that it wasn't just that people sat next to them, but actually they had then done something

that had made them feel deeply uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that sparked a big conversation in the Women's Hour office and I shared my own experience as well at the start of the programme. Michael, you also responded to Grace's tweet. Why and what was your reaction to it? I just thought it encapsulated so much

to be honest about our culture and the way that we operate and what we expect of women and men and what we accept and what we let pass. So there was just very, you know, sometimes you stare at Twitter and something comes and it cuts through

and this was one of them so you know really really sad that this has happened uh to your grace absolutely uh but thank you for sharing it because i think you're giving a voice to a lot of women a lot of women i mean you can't even imagine the numbers but so and i'm in the the line of work i, where I feel like I need to add my voice to your voices and the voices of women are saying this is not acceptable because men don't do that enough. And so I want to be part of doing that more. And also because, and I'll be honest, Grace, I nicked it and I'm using it in training because I try and keep it fresh and current because the themes are ancient, aren't they?

You've got 7,000 years of patriarchy. But it looks different in 2024, I suppose, in little bits. So I will use that and create a lesson plan, a programme plan around it about the invasion of space and about intentionally wanting a woman to feel frightened. Can we get into it? Sorry to interrupt you there, Michael, because I know you're in flow because you're going to give us some good insights.

But what is behind it then? Because it has happened to lots of women. It's happened to me. Why does a man choose to sit next to a woman on an otherwise empty bus or train? To make her feel fear and to enjoy that feeling of her feeling fear. There is no doubt. That's it, in a nutshell. Probably aligned to

sexual arousal and thrill, unfortunately, and because he knows he will probably get away with it, which probably adds to the thrill and the sense of power because he feels like the world, the society, the culture allows him to do it.

And it's that. It's a sense of entitlement. I'm allowed to do this. I might be technically not allowed to do it, but in the real world, I'm allowed to do it. And I think some men have responded to the way that the world invites us to be as men through misogyny, masculinity

patriarchy some men, we obviously all turn out the same but there are shades nobody's entirely blameless and nobody is a monster because if we say they're monsters then it means they're no longer accountable and accountability is key, especially

for adult men so yeah I think it's that, it's as accountable, and accountability is key, especially for adult men. So, yeah, I think it's that. It's as brutal and as raw and as obvious as that. They want women to feel fear because that is like having power, and it's about power. Grace, what do you think? Oh, sorry. Yes, no, carry on, please.

It's important. No, I was just going to say, really briefly, to link it in with what the previous speaker, that was Danielle, wasn't it? Was it? Oh, gosh. Daisy. Daisy, sorry, sorry. Yes, okay, Daisy.

No, no, no, it's all right. Don't worry. Daisy. Well, Daisy was saying absolutely this is part of this picture as well because what we're doing now is we're giving the whole world of porn to children and this will get worse. And I've already seen, and lots of women, no doubt, have seen men using porn in public on buses and trains.

So that's kind of a ramping up and an amplification of an already bad situation. So, yes, let's really do a lot with the platforms, et cetera, and smartphones, et cetera. But fundamentally, it's about uh men uh soaking up lessons from life that we are supposed to be able to do what we want and get away with anything and that women will bear the brunt of that always and that is simply unacceptable so i'm going to zip it no no you don't have to zip it it's absolutely fascinating we're going to i'll

come back to you i just want to get grace's reaction to what she's just heard you say. I think what Michael is doing and what Michael is saying is so important in this issue. One of the really nice things about the tweet was the number of men who retweeted saying, guys, don't do this. Why are you doing this? You know, I totally understand where you're coming from. And it is down to power. And it's about how we use that power. You know, when I wear a clerical collar, I have power and I've got to be aware of how I'm using that power because that's been abused in the past.

And it's the same in other situations as well. And I just think it's really important that we raise this as an issue of power and that we tackle it where it needs to be tackled. What's really interesting is I went home and I was chatting to my son. My son's 27. And I was saying to him, you know, we didn't do anything. He just sat next to me. And my son just said, no, mum, he sat next to you on an empty bus. These microaggressions are building up.

These are microaggressions that build up, that cause women to feel unsafe. And I thought, oh, first of all, obviously. Well done you, Grace. Well done. Also, yes, first of all, I obviously... Well done you, Grace. Well done. Also, yes, that's exactly right. I think we're so used to it as women. We are so used to all these microaggressions happening day in, day out that we actually sometimes deny the power of them. Yes. And also, you know, how do you respond in that scenario?

Because I can tell you, I'll share my experience. I was on a train. It was late and it's an empty carriage. And I was two things. I felt vulnerable. I was also fuming. So and then you've worried because if you do anything that could upset the kind of bloke that thinks it's all right to sit next to you, then you're even more exposed. So, Michael, what do we do?

How do you react in that situation? Gosh, I think we've got two things going on. One is the management of the moment. And then we start talking about bystander intervention. But occasionally there is no bystander, as you know, in the case with Grace. And then there is an intolerable burden placed on the woman or the girl. And in the very, very very rare occasion it could be a boy as well you know because it could be a character but ultimately it's a male power play but it's almost always women and girls absolutely um and so what we need to do the bit that i try and get involved in is looking upstream where do these ideas come from that it it's okay to do that, and what is the fascination with power.

So it's kind of supporting boys before their ideas are entrenched and their behaviours start to become entrenched. It's really difficult to unpick something once it's been decades in the making. Millennia. Yeah, sorry, I'm talking in terms of individuals. Sure. Yeah, no, absolutely, it's millennial for sure.

And so that's the bit that I kind of focus on, is how do we support our primary school teachers, our youth workers, social workers, teachers, to have confident, constructive conversations with boys that actually have a message of hope for them about being fully complex human beings empathetic and and and having good lives but that that cannot exist in a vacuum if we are routinely treating women as objects and things to dominate so i would say a let's switch off porn if there's a plug

somewhere pull it out never turn it back on again. That's where I'm at with that. Smartphones, 16, that would be a good idea. But also we're dealing with men in their 30s, 40s, 50s. I mean, I'm sure it wasn't a teenager crisis guy, he looked like a fully grown man. So asking ourselves, based on the evidence and the fact that men, you know, male human beings, adult male human beings, men are the number one committer of sexual assault and voyeurism and all of this stuff.

It's just reality. It's not anti-men. It's not anti-men because, you know, we can be different. Another world is possible. And we need to try and think, how can we make this other world possible? Because what's happening is we're feeding boys from the moment they're born a story of power. And that does not

work out well for anybody but of course it's directed at women and girls the fact that it consumes us up in the process is a is a parallel another story but i think a holistic approach that supports boys and young men to see themselves as fully human and empathetic and celebrate that and not be frightened of that as a weakness will be part of a process where maybe we can eventually start to chip away at the just absolutely endemic misogyny of patriarchal violence. And until then, you know, fully support women's, you know, spaces where they can be themselves themselves. Absolutely.

Because we're not fixed yet and we must respect women's boundaries. And you're not fixed, but you're doing the work. Maybe we need stronger messaging on public transport. Maybe that's a good place to start as well. Grace, very quickly, you've had a huge reaction. How are you doing in yourself after this week? Thank you, Anita. Yeah, it's been a very overwhelming response, actually.

And I did mute the thread quite early on because the vast, vast majority of responses were positive or they were sharing, women sharing their experiences, which clearly needed, you know, for further discussion. But there were also quite a few, a smaller minority of people who were, you know for further discussion um but there were also quite a few a smaller minority of people who were you know misogynistic who um and who's you know who said all kinds of quite unpleasant things and so I actually muted the thread and I haven't really looked at it but I've seen it popping up in all kinds of places and I just want to ask very quickly um because we are about to go on to the

next topic which I introduced the program with which is is about solitude. As a reverend, what are your thoughts on solitude? about. I love my own space. I love going for walks. But I have to think about and plan when I'm going to do that because there's a safety issue involved in that when you're a woman, even with a collar on. So I'm planning a pilgrimage in June. I'm going to be doing with a friend of mine. We know each other well enough to know that we're going to allow each other space. So we can do it safely, but do it together. So solitude, I think, is really important. It's restorative. It's wonderful and it's peaceful. And I would definitely say let's have more of it.

We just need to find ways to do it safely. Well, my next guest is definitely in agreement with you. I'm going to come to her in a moment. But for now, Grace and Michael, thank you so much for speaking to me. Michael, next time we're going to get you in the studio. Lots of you getting in touch with your thoughts on this. Alan says,

weird and horrible, but perhaps any woman getting on an empty bus should put her bag on the empty seat to deter someone from sitting there. Yeah, again,

we have to come up with the solutions, but yeah, maybe that's a good idea. Anonymous person says, I've traveled on public transport for the last 35 years and in my experience,

men never sit next to other men if there's another seat either empty or next to a woman. Interesting. Someone else has said, I also noticed men's behavior parking next to females in car parks and male behavior on the roads veering towards females while driving towards

on an oncoming lane of traffic honking the horn very quickly when they would not do so if the driver is a male so many messages coming in on this. Keep them coming through. 848. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. 4-4. But next.

When did you last spend time alone? Did you embrace it or were you lonely? Well, Netta Weinstein is Professor of Psychology at the University of Reading and the co-author of Solitude, The Science and Power of Being Alone. She and her co-authors, Heather Hansen and Tweevi Nguyen, think solitude has a bad reputation. And they found there are many benefits to solo time. On average, we spend one third of our waking life alone. So how can we be better at it?

Netta, welcome. A third of our lifetimes being alone. It feels like we're constantly surrounded by people. It does, yeah. And it's true that adults spend a third of their time alone and older adults spend up to half of their waking time alone. So we spend quite a bit of our time alone. But, you know, I don't think we often stop and think about it. It's a little bit our default time between

the next social interaction, the next time we go out with friends, the next work event we have. So we don't really take advantage of that time. Okay, so let's get into what the difference between solitude and loneliness is, because they get conflated, don't they? Yeah, and we've been talking a lot about loneliness. And so a lot of the questions I get, well, you know, what do you think? Is loneliness not something we should worry about? Maybe it's not a big deal. Loneliness is a big deal and it's a negative emotion. It essentially tells us it's the way of our body. We tell us that we're not getting enough social connection. Maybe we don't feel loved enough. We don't feel valued enough.

So loneliness is really about not having enough of something. And that's something about is about social connection, connection or connectedness to others. But solitude is something very different. And, you know, whereas loneliness is is kind of a negative emotions, quite difficult. It's painful. It's linked to a lot of negative kind of physical health and mental health outcomes. So it's not good for well-being. Solitude is the neutral state of being alone. So it's kind of a whole different idea. And we tend to confuse or conflate the two ideas. How did you begin to measure this for your book? Oh, well, that was a challenge in itself. And we sort of set out to find the sort of common ingredient for solitude. What does it mean? Because actually, it seems like a simple thing. If we think about the definition, it's just time spent alone and not interacting with others. But it turned out that actually, there are a lot of ways to be in solitude and a lot of different definitions of solitude. So we can be in solitude when we're fully alone,

and there's nobody around. And usually when we think about solitude, and we call it kind of big ass solitude, that's this kind of special solitude, not our everyday life solitude, we'll tend to think of sort of, you know, the Buddha meditating, and we kind of think of it as this spiritual transformative experience, or we'll hear about people who went out on these kind of long hikes in the wilderness for weeks, and they sort of found themselves and they transform themselves through that. So those are special moments of solitude. But actually, our everyday life solitude or little s solitude can also be really important for us. Like what?

And we tend to forget about it. So, you know, those moments of solitude, they could be sitting alone in our house, having some kind of self-care experience, just taking the time to relax, maybe have a bubble bath or bake a cake or, you know, a lot of people talk about gardening as a hobby that they like to do. So we'll tend to have different kinds of little s everyday solitude. But we can also have it walking down the street. We can have it on a bus or in a train as long as kind of nobody's invading our space or privacy. And so, you know, we can have others around. And the thing that defines our solitude is people are around, but we're able to attend inside. So psychologically, we're separated.

We're able to reflect on our own thoughts and feelings. Our attention isn't oriented towards others. And when we're actively interacting, whether it's through text messages or by talking to people, our attention is focused on them, what they're saying. You know, when we're talking, it's what their nonverbal cues, we call it, are. So how they're looking at us, what they're saying. You know, when we're talking, it's what their nonverbal cues we call it are. So how they're looking at us, are they smiling? Are they happy with us? A lot of our attention is taken up by those cues that other people give us or the words that they say that we're trying to understand and kind of think, how am I going to respond to this? Solitude is about turning away from that and turning inwards to spend time with our own thoughts and feelings.

And others can be around for that as long as they don't need our attention. As we are on Woman's Hour, we need to talk about the stigma that might be attached around solitude, especially for women. Yeah, that's right. So I think because we tend to confuse loneliness and solitude, there is a stigma. Solitude has a bad rep, you know, it has a bad reputation. So the way that we talk about solitude, you know, is kind of I'm a solitary person. I'm a loner, you know, we'll tend to think about them in the same way we tend to think about solitary confinement, and we use the word solitude and solitary confinement, but that's really about isolation being really separated. So, you know, in all, we're kind of set up to think of solitude as a negative thing, unless we really stop and think about how solitude can be positive in our own lives.

And part of that is then we judge that others must be loners or asocial. They don't want to be with others or they don't, you know, if you're choosing to be by yourself, maybe nobody wanted to spend Friday evening with you or maybe you didn't want to spend Friday evening with anyone else because there is something wrong with you. Or you're being selfish. Or you're being selfish. If you're a woman in particular, I'm thinking, you know, if you decide that you don't want to do whatever it is that's expected of you. Absolutely. So women even more so are susceptible to this stigma and not just from others, but also we feel it inside. So women are set up, you know, if you think about kind of women, the way we operate in society,

not just now, but historically for, you know, many, many, many generations, women take care of the family, the babies, they're meant to be kind of real we're meant to be really social animals we're expected to be really social animals and you know i think for women parents and non-parents but we do hear this a lot from mothers especially mothers of young children that if they're taking time for themselves that they're being kind of selfish that there's something wrong with you and people will tend to selfish, that there's something wrong with you. And people will tend to think more that there's something wrong with a woman who wants to be alone than a man who wants to be alone. And women as well will be less comfortable to eat at a restaurant on her

own as compared to a man who might go out and feel more comfortable to do that, or to travel on her own. But there is a privilege, I think, attached to the idea of being able to take time out and disappear into a cabin in the woods and have thinking time, isn't there? Yeah, absolutely. So we can't all look kind of... The stereotype of the male genius, if you like. Yes, absolutely.

So, you know, you kind of have to be special in a way. I mean, there's a reality of it, that if you have the time and money to go out and do that and you're not kind of have to be special in a way. I mean, there's a reality of it that if you have the time and money to go out and do that, and you're not kind of holding three jobs, and you don't have a family to take care of, it's easier to carve out those substantial amounts of time for yourself. But actually, when we look at, you know, the actual kind of possibilities for solitude, even if you have a very busy life. And even for women who have small children or women who have, who are balancing work and home life, carving out a few minutes, you know, even 15 minutes a day. Tell her she's listening right now. She's got the toddler on her, attached to her leg. She's got the baby in her arms. Like, what are you saying to her? How

is she going to carve out some time? She might not have showered yet. She might be in her pajamas from yesterday. What can we tell her? Absolutely. So i mean that was that was the time that i fell in love with solitude i'll really tell us about your experience absolutely so you know having my my my daughter um so this was 10 years ago having my daughter really taught me the value of solitude because i think we tend to think of of kind of women as then being responsible for their family. And it is an intensive experience to take care of another person. It's an intensive experience to have a job, you know, for example, in health care where you're taking care of others all day long. So I think, you know, it's really not about thinking, first of all, there's something selfish or wrong with me if I need that time. And actually, we tend to think it's going to mean that

I'm a bad mother or, you know, I'm not doing my job as well if I go out for 20 minutes and I just step out and I take a little walk by myself. But actually, it helps us be better mothers and better kind of partners and better friends because we're able to recenter, we can relax, and it allows us to come back to others with more patience and a better version and a happier version of ourselves. So I think it's really important, especially for, you know, those women who feel like they don't have enough time alone and maybe they don't deserve it, to question that idea and think, actually, can I use solitude in a way that fits in with my life, but allows me to just have a few moments for myself to breathe and think about my needs and

my feelings and my thoughts. And there's nothing wrong with me for doing that. And Netta has given you permission and she's actually an expert. So thank you, Netta. Absolutely. Well, it's a fascinating read. And it's been wonderful to speak to you. Thank you so much for joining me this morning. Thank you. Keep your tweets coming in.

844 is the number to text. Lots of people getting in touch about a variety of different things. We've talked about this morning on solitude. I've recently spent five nights away on my own walking eating and drinking i loved it and told myself i'll do it every year my grown-up daughters travel alone and i thought it was time for me to do it too it makes you more resilient i'm in a happy long marriage but still feel it's important to have time alone not lonely doing my own thing here here to that sally says i live alone and i've done for about 10 years it isn't the same as solitude

which can be frightening, threatening experience, but must be learned so that we can be whole to venture out into the world healthy and functioning. It's vital for us and for society. And Linda says, not to be confused with loneliness,

solitude is essential for good mental health. Time to explore thoughts, ideas, or just be empty. I have a good family, circle of friends, but like to come home to my space. Nothing to be afraid of, nothing to see here.

Wonderful, 84844. Now, last night, you might have seen the final episode of the 18th series of The Apprentice. If you didn't, then this is your warning. We're about to name the winner. After a battle that saw boutique gyms go head-to-head with a pie delivery service, Lord Alan Sugar decided to invest £250,000 into Rachel Wulford's luxury gym business.

Congratulations, Rachel. You are the winner. Thank you. What an introduction. Thank you. I know. I felt very dramatic. I enjoyed that. Well, you've known for a while. What's it been like keeping it a secret? I've known actually for just less than two weeks. I've not known for as long as people think, but it's still very raw and emotional. And I was with a lot of friends, family, clients and my staff yesterday evening who weren't aware of the result. And I think it was only yesterday where I got really emotional about it

because I got to see everyone's natural reaction. Yeah, you got a big cheer here anyway at Women's Hour HQ. Thank you. So what is a bout cheer here anyway at Women's Hour HQ. Thank you. So what is a boutique gym? Tell us about your business. So gyms and boutique fitness studios are slightly different in that gyms kind of work on mass and I guess a little bit less personal,

whereas boutique fitness studios, they work on really small group and personal inclusive services. So, you know, I've got a little site in Leeds, a little site in Harrogate, and we focus less on mass numbers coming into one class rather smaller groups and keeping it really personal and inclusive and also you know making it fun and not just about physical well-being but we have a huge focus on the benefits of mental well-being surrounding exercise and also being part of a community and being around other people. And you wanted to offer the north something that you

didn't you didn't think existed up there, that you saw that was happening elsewhere in London, LA. And you thought, why not in the North? I read that you are very hands-on, that when you started your business, you did absolutely everything yourself. Yeah, and I mean, I continue to do so to this day. And I think it's just the way I like to operate. And I think at some point you obviously have to learn to delegate.

And I have done over the last four years. But, you know know it is my baby at the end of the day and I like things done a certain way and you know that's what's kind of made it successful in the first place and I will remain hands-on and I think you know a few of my clients were at the viewing party last night and they're like does this mean you're not going to teach does this mean you're not going to teach our classes anymore and I absolutely will remain to that you know teaching a lot of the classes which you know it's a big part of why I started in the first place I love doing it I love helping people and making a difference their day so don't get me wrong you know I do like a lot less classes than

I did when I first started because the management side of things takes up a lot of my time but you know I'll always remain very much within the business um Alan Sugar says that he what did he say he loved your Northern spirit. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's no support like the Northern support. I've had so much amazing feedback from people in Leeds. And, you know, I think people love the Northerners. I think, you know, we're very straight talking and Lord Sugar is very straight talking. He doesn't like any crap and rightly so, you know, there's a lot of money at stake.

And I think, you know, I'm hoping that's what he saw in me that I don't like to sugarcoat things and I like things you know to be straight up and spoken as they are. Why are you targeting the north? Well first and foremost you know I am a northern girl I'm leads through and through and I think you know I'd visited a lot of the gyms in London and America just because you know I was obsessed with the whole fitness thing and I was like why haven't we got this kind of thing? We've got plenty of gyms, but we haven't got this really fun, inclusive studio vibe up north. And don't get me wrong,

there are some places that do provide that. It's not just myself in the north. I'm not trying to claim that, but it's very saturated in London. And I think I was just trying to bring a bit more of what I'd seen in London and in places like America up north and you know why why should we not have that if if everyone else has got it and also you know I am my own

customer everything I do I do is if I'm the customer and if I would only put things into the business that I would genuinely buy into if I was the customer. And you started it during Covid during lockdown how did you get started were you supported i mean it wasn't actually meant to be in lockdown what happened was i'd secured the building in 2019 yeah and the building works had started about early 2020 and i was always like right we'll do a march 2020 open i'd spoken to the builders they were confident we could get it ready for them and then obviously long behold at the end of March 2020, the announcement was made we were going into lockdown.

And I mean, it was heartbreaking because I'd spent, you know, the last almost year getting ready to launch. I'd left my job. I was still doing

my personal training and earning a bit here and there. But, you know, I didn't have a stable income at that point. And it was heartbreaking, you know, and we were doing a lot of,

you know, we did online classes and we did what every other gym was kind of doing to keep keep the spirit alive but the official launch wasn't wasn't until the august of that year so it was a very delayed start and you know i think the pressure was building up in that way because so many people knew i was doing it and i think people thought i was just i wasn't going to do it anymore and you know obviously i proved them wrong you have proven wrong you've proved everyone wrong um i today we did a woman's hour live from doncaster all about entrepreneurship

a couple of weeks ago we thought it was really important to go north and talk about women and ambition so what are your ambitions now that you've got this extra quarter of a million pounds to invest in your company what happens next i mean i've been given the most amazing opportunity to go into business with someone like Lord Sugar who's got years and years of business experience. And, you know, I've got the industry expertise, but he's got, you know, the business acumen and things that are going to help improve my business

and take it even further. He won't be taking any classes, though, like you, will he? Do you know, I had an email from a client this morning saying, Rachel, congratulations, but please tell me he's not going to be at the front of my class next week. Pilates with Lord Sugar. I know. I mean, do you know what? I think he'd get the punters in,

but I don't think it'd be popular for long. Well, a massive congratulations to you once again. Thank you very much. Well done. Well done. Thank you very, very much. And come back and talk to us when it's up and running and when you've gone from strength to strength to strength. Oh, I'd be honoured. Thank you very much for having

me. Thank you. Winner. Another woman. We like it. Northern as well. Now, this weekend marks 100 years since the death of Marie Carelli, who died on the 21st of April 1924. She was a novelist who, in her time, outsold the likes of Arthur Conan

Doyle and H.G. Wells. She published more than 25 books, which were enjoyed by millions of English readers, Americans and those in the colonies. But her name is unknown, really, to most of us. But readers were said to include Queen Victoria and Gladstone to the poorest shop girls. She is one of the first true conservationists of her time.

She moved to Stratford-upon-Avon, Shakespeare's birthplace, and that is where she became known in the town for campaigning to save historic buildings and gardens. Well, to help us find out more about Marie Corelli, I'm joined by Anoushka Lester, who is researching the life of Marie and other women who curated Shakespeare's Stratford-upon-Avon. Anoushka, welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Marie Corelli. Yes. Who knew? Who knew? Wellushka, welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Marie Corelli. Yes. Who knew?

Who knew? Well, you, obviously. Thank you for bringing it to us. It was a pseudonym to start with. Yes, that's right. So Marie Corelli is an invented persona. So she lived at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century. And we don't know a huge amount about her early life. She was born in London and lived her early life in Surrey. And there are a few different options for what could have happened to her. It's possible that she was the illegitimate daughter of a poet and songwriter called Charles Mackay, who then adopted her and she became part of his household. Whether or not he was actually her biological father, we're not sure um it's also possible that she was born to a working class

family um and then was adopted by Charles Mackay into the sort of more literary household um and she decided that she wanted to earn money she wanted to be successful and she wanted to be famous and so she set about trying to do that. Initially, she was a songwriter and performer, but that didn't quite take off in the way she wanted to. And so she decided to start writing novels. How did she get into it? I was going to say she might have applied for The Apprentice. She would have done. How did she get into writing?

Well, I think she had grown up, as I say, her father or guardian was a literary man. And so she was allowed to read and encouraged to read everything that was in the household. And so from a very early age, she was reading Shakespeare and Keats and Byron. And that was her life. And then she decided that writing novels was what she wanted to do. And so her first novel was published published was called a romance of two worlds and then as you say she went on to write another 25 novels and be the best-selling novelist of her day i mean what were what were her books about they're a bit mad i was gonna say any good well

they must have been they must have had pop they were massively popular and as you say um across huge class divides so everyone from you know, working class up to Queen Victoria were reading these novels. And there's a huge range of genres. There's some Gothic literature. There's some fantasy. There's some science fiction. There's some time travel in there. There's a lot of sort of like Christian mysticism.

So there's a huge range. There's a little bit of something for everyone. We'll talk about why we don't know about her and why we know about her contemporaries who were selling far fewer books. How did she get published though? She wrote to publishers and said this is what I want to do, this is who I am and as you know saying this invented persona of Marie Corelli being someone from a literary household who, you know, has these Italian connections and has sort of invented this very appealing, slightly mysterious, romantic person that she sort of then lived out and said, these are the kinds of novels that I want to write and wrote to her first publisher

was a man named George Bentley. And he said, look, this is probably going to cause a stir. People are maybe not going to like it but some people will and that is actually going to get you more popularity because if it's just straightforward and everyone loves it it'll fall off quite quickly she's a bit of a marketing genius wasn't she certainly was wasn't she obsessed with her own image as well exactly yes so um so we have these amazing archives related to her and one of my favorite items that i've discovered which is in the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust collections is this amazing photograph of Marie Corelli when she's um it's probably in about the 1920s and she's wearing this gorgeous gown that's quite old-fashioned at the time so full-length gown she's standing she's very statuesque and you've

got this gorgeous picture of a woman um like she's got a bigger frame she's quite short she's not like the most stereotypically attractive person um but she's got this gleam in her eyes right but right next to this photograph is an edited version where she's slimmed down she's got this glow all of the wrinkles have been removed so she had this great control over her image she filtered herself she filtered herself and this is a hundred years before social media before photoshop and she's doing it apparently she she had this photo shoot this one authorized photo shoot where she was really controlling of her public image eventually said okay i'll put my image out there but i'm gonna decide what i look like so she went to a publisher to a photographer had this photograph taken and they sent it to her

and she said, sent it back and said, why this stoutness? So had it slimmed down. That says a lot about her personality, the fact that she felt that she had the power to even tell them that she wanted this to happen. Absolutely. Can we talk about how she didn't like playing by the rules?

Because she moved to Stratford-upon-Avon, an unmarried woman who ran her own house. And she lived with, tell us about her long-term partner. Yes. So she lived the majority of her life with a woman called Bertha Viver. They were childhood friends. And when they were living in Surrey and London, Bertha moved in with the family. And they spent the rest of their lives together.

And this is the end of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th century, where certainly relationships between men were illegal. Relationships between women weren't illegal, but they were sort of not talked about. And we don't know how they would have described their relationship privately because, you know, the limited survival in terms of letters and diaries between letters between them um so you know they might not have used the same language or you know they they wouldn't have had the same language that we have today about lesbianism bisexuality but there are these two women who live their entire lives together

um and her house or their house marie and bertha's house now in Stratford-upon-Avon called Masoncroft and it's now the home of the Shakespeare Institute, the University of Birmingham so it's still dedicated to literary pursuits and a lot of the fabric of the building was designed by her and in the main hall which is where all the lectures happen there's this beautiful plaster shield on the wall and it has the initials bv for birth of ivor and mc for marie kelly and underneath amour vincit love conquers they live together they were buried together love a bit of graffiti yeah romantic graffiti so everything based on everything you've just told me i'm thinking feminist icon absolutely however her she she had quite a an

anti-suffrage stance exactly yes so this is one of the reasons why i find her so intriguing because she's this woman that's full of contradictions um you know she was a huge champion for women's rights and she said like i every pound that i've made i have made it myself i'm a strong independent woman um when she had to get surgery she went to a female surgeon almost unheard of at the time when she had to get surgery, she went to a female surgeon, almost unheard of at the time. When she had to have a portrait painted, she went to a female portrait painter.

And yet she spoke out against the suffrage movement. She didn't think women should have the vote. God, we have to get into this. Is that privilege? Like, what is that? I mean, you know, she is speaking from a place of privilege. She's a white woman who is, you know, she has a lot of money at this time that she's made herself. But nevertheless, she's moving in middle class and upper class circles.

And she, when she's talking about what it means to be a woman who has the vote, and she has this really clear idea of what it means to be a woman with power. And for her, being a woman with power is partly about cultivating this image of femininity. So like these photographs that she's released of her looking young and beautiful and girlish, it's partly about being a feminine person who men take care of. But crucially, she also says that's where her power comes from in terms of her relationships with men and through that, her relationship with the world. So she wrote, for instance, woman governs man and through man she governs the world. I mean, that's a whole special week long of discussions on Women's Hour.

Oh, I hope so. How has it been researching her in her life yeah I mean it's been hugely exciting because she is this captivating person um there have been a few challenges that have come up come up along with it partly because you've got this invented persona she had a few different names over her career and there are these stories about her that are really enchanting so for instance um she, she had two ponies that she named after Shakespeare characters because she's living in Stratford-on-Avon. Really was a big fan of Shakespeare and doing a lot of work there. She has these two ponies called Puck and Ariel.

She rides a gondola up and down the river Stratford-on-Avon. There was another story I found that was she trains her dog to tear up reviews because all of the critics hate her work. Even though she's really popular, she's getting really bad reviews. So a lot of pressure on you to decipher, figure out what's real, what's myth. Well, precisely. And also I sort of feel this. I want to do her story justice. And so, you know, for instance, with her relationship with Bertha and the fact that this wasn't you know publicly a romantic or sexual relationship even though we don't know what it would have been privately um she could have been a huge figure in terms of queer history

yeah but um but we don't but we don't know so there's a big responsibility for trying to tell that story right huge responsibility but it's been fascinating to to hear about her and understand who she was and to put her name out there which she belongs um we've been discussing solitude in the program you spend a lot of time alone how do you manage it are you okay with it presumably you go into this line of work because you know that's gonna but you're gonna have to spend a lot of time in libraries on your own yeah absolutely i mean there's a there's a huge joy that for me personally that comes from sitting in an archive reading through these letters and understanding a bit about marie corelli and bertha fiverr and their lives um but also part of the

reason that i do that is to then be able to share it yes and we have loved you sharing it with us here on woman's hour today thank you so much for coming in to speak to me um that's it for me thanks to all of you we've had so many messages coming in from you let's see if i can squeeze in another one before the end of the program melanie on transport says uh one evening on a train to london last week a man sat in the seat opposite me and tried to start up a sexual invasive conversation i turned and saw the carriage was empty i laughed it off turned to my book he got off at the next train stop five minutes later another man did exactly the same thing.

Gosh, keep your thoughts coming in to us. Sorry I wasn't able to read out all your messages, but do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4. I just remember shouting and screaming, get off my sister. Life as we know it can change in an instant. I was just punching frantically.

I wasn't going to let it take away my sister if I could help it. A single transformative moment. I heard this engine sort of go past and I was like, what is that? And mum had looked up into the rearview mirror and she went, oh my God, he's here. I'm Dr Sian Williams and this is the programme that explores the most dramatic, personal and poignant stories from the very people who've experienced them. I always pass it there and say, hi John, hi John. You've got to find some joy in the sorrow, you know.

You've got to find some joy. Subscribe to Life Changing on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.