Woman's Hour - Sonita Alleyne, US Abortion, Women and Architecture

Episode Date: October 8, 2019

The winner of the RIBA Stirling prize for architecture will be announced this evening. On the short list is Annalie Riches who has co-designed a council housing project, the first ever such project to be nominated for this prestigious prize. Jane talks to her and to Zoë Berman, an architect and founder of Part W, which campaigns for the increased visibility of women in architecture and the promotion of designs that work for women and families in the real world.Nine American states have changed their laws on abortion making it much harder to get one. In Missouri they passed a law in May which meant abortion would only be available up to 8 weeks. The law was due to go into effect at the end of August but it's been temporarily stopped. Even so, there are many rules and regulations regarding abortion that have to be met. Siobhann Tighe visits an abortion clinic in the city of St Louis. Sonita Alleyne OBE is the first woman to lead Jesus College, Cambridge in its 523 year history and the first ever Black leader of an Oxbridge College. Born in Barbados and brought up in London, she was a Cambridge graduate herself and founded the media company Somethin' Else aged only 24. Zoe Wanamaker and Zrinka Civtesic are currently performing at the Bridge Theatre in Two Ladies, loosely based on Melania Trump and Brigitte Macron. As their husbands clash over an international crisis, the first ladies of France and America find themselves alone together in a side room. Friends or enemies? When the stakes are so high, can they trust each other? The 'First Ladies@ join Jane Garvey. What appealed to them about portraying these high profile women?Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Annalie Riches Interviewed guest: Zoë Berman Interviewed guest: Sonita Alleyne Interviewed guest: Zoe Wanamaker Interviewed guest: Zrinka Civtesic Reporter: Siobhann Tighe Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hi there, good morning. Our guests today include Sunita Elaine. She is the first ever black woman to be at the very top of an Oxbridge college. She's very proud to be the new master of Jesus College, Cambridge. We'll talk to her on the programme today. We'll also discuss a new play called Two Ladies. It's by Nancy Harris. It's loosely based on Melania Trump and Brigitte Macron, and it stars Zoe Wanamaker and Zsuzsanna Zvitovich, and they're both on the programme this

morning. And you might well know that Missouri is one of nine American states to have tightened its laws on abortion. It really is quite hard to get an abortion in Missouri these days. Our reporter Siobhan Tai has been to an abortion clinic in the Missouri city of St. Louis. That is really interesting, that report. And I know you'll want to hear it on Woman's Hour this morning. Now, the winner of the Reba Sterling Prize for Architecture is going to be announced tonight.

Anna-Lee Riches is on the shortlist. She's one of the co-designers of a council housing project in Norwich. And incredibly, actually, this is the first time such a project has been nominated for this prize. Zoe Berman's also going to talk to us. She's an architect and founder of Part W, which campaigns for the increased visibility of women in architecture. A very good morning to you both.

Anna-Lee's in Canterbury, Zoe in Bristol. Anna Lee, first of all, congratulations. So tell us about your housing project in Norwich. Just describe it. It's 100 homes. It's about 10 minutes walk from the city centre. And it's a mix of houses and flats. And it's all very ecologically designed.

It's a cheap passive house, which means that its fuel bills will be very low for residents. How much lower than in a standard terrace, if I can put it like that? I think the annual heating bill and hot water will be about £140 for a house, and half of that is the standing charge, so £70 effectively a year. Now, when you design a scheme like this, you're not designing it for prizes, are you? Well, presumably you're not.

You're designing it for people. So just take me through that process. I think one of the kind of generators of the design was thinking about children playing and people meeting each other to make spaces where people could effectively build communities because the people that have moved in there don't know each other. They're new to the area, some of them. So we've designed in safe places for children to play, places for adults to meet. So that's been a really important generator of some of the ideas about the landscape. Yeah, but forgive me, what you've said sounds to me like common sense.

So what distinguishes what you've done here in Goldsmith Street from any other kind of social housing project? I mean, in a way, it's quite a standard project. It's based on streets and you know everyone has a front door onto a street but there are car-free spaces for children to play and I think that's one of the things that's quite unusual that at the back of every back garden there's a gate onto a shared communal play space so small children can play out. And they'll be absolutely safe and communal play space so small children can play out. And they'll be absolutely safe and people can see them and everyone can play a part and keeping an eye on them. It's the old-fashioned way, isn't it?

It's a ginnell. It's playing in the alleyway. I think we all remember that and the freedoms that came with the childhood and actually that's been lost for a lot of children. Why is it that a project involving social housing has never been nominated for this prize before and what does that tell you I suppose about the way we design social housing? I think partly it's because we've not been building much social housing. Well there's that, that's true. This is really unusual being all council housing so it's an unusual project and I think that's probably one of the reasons. Also, I think housing works to lower budgets

than other types of architecture, and perhaps it's seen as less glamorous, I suppose. It's a long time in the making, all this, isn't it? When did you start working on this? We've been working on this for 11 years, which is a long time for a project. It stopped and started and I think one of the reasons it went forward was that councils can now develop themselves. So I think we'll see a lot more council housing coming forward now.

Zoe Berman from Park W, why do you need to campaign for the increased visibility of women in architecture? Oh thank you Jane. So we as a group we were talking about the issues that women face within our industry and one of the things that we kept coming back to in our conversations was the way in which we have felt that women are consistently being overlooked within our industry, that their contribution is being under-recognised and under-acknowledged. And so we started this campaign in two parts. First, to create what we call the Alternative List, which was a crowdsourced list of members of the public

putting forward suggestions of women who have done amazing things over the years and have not been recognised within the conventional award systems. Why is that important? Well, partly it's important for those who are within the industry to feel that they are valued and that women are getting equal recognition to men. That is only fair and just, and particularly when architecture is very much a collaborative industry. Well, women enter it in equal numbers to men, don't they? But they don't stay in it. So where does the problem start?

Yes, that's a good question. So, absolutely. At the moment, within schools of architecture, there is a 50-50 intake of men and women. And then that slips away. And actually, the statistics at the moment, we're looking at around 12,000, just over 12,000 female architects registered with the Architects Registration Board to just over 30,000 male. And there's a number of reasons for this. Recognition, I think, is part of it.

Mentoring and support and, of course, pay and salaries and women. Within our industry, you tend to be kind of tipping the moment when you're able to make the next step within a practice in terms of associate positions right at you know the sort of the moment when people might be having children yeah sure which is something we've discussed on the program before but what I suppose I've never been able to pin down is is there proof that women design better for women I'm not sure about women designing better per se but I think it's really important the the way in which our spaces and places are designed are designed equally by both women and men. And if you only have 28% of architects who are women,

then of course we all bring our own experiences and knowledge into what we design and the way in which we design. So it seems immensely important that half of the population is properly represented in the way in which we think about spaces and places. Now, that is not designing for women more than men, but designing equally. And so if you think about the way in which we all negotiate cities, for example, if one designs in a way that spaces are more generous and kind to a woman who might be pushing a pushchair or who might be carrying heavy bags of shopping or who might be in a wheelchair or caring for somebody if we design our streetscapes our homes our houses our built environments in ways that are supportive and generous and considerate to women then that's good for men

as well that's creating for men as well. That's creating better spaces for all. Which brings us on to the vexed question of toilets. Now, this problem never entirely goes away. And we're about to talk to two theatrical greats on the programme today. They're currently performing at a relatively new theatre, the Bridge Theatre in London, which actually has quite a good supply of toilets

for women and for men. But on the whole, Zoe, public buildings and women and toilets are rubbish. Yeah, and this comes up time and again and Part W finds that we keep being looped in on these conversations. Oh, I'm so sorry. No, no, no, there's a lot of debate.

There's a lot of debate on social media going on about this right now. And I think what we would also encourage people to think about is, of course, we need toilet provision that is equal and designed in a fair way to everyone. But actually, to look at the genesis of where projects are started and who projects are being, the briefs are being written by, who holds the purse strings also on a project, because that is really where value and decisions about value

and what is considered important are being made. And so the women should be being taken into account at those early moments, at the inception of a project, potentially before an architect comes on board, to encourage clients to be thinking about, well, how are we designing spaces that are going to be enjoyable and easy and supportive of everybody and women need to be being taken into account much more by those people who are making those decisions around budgets and briefs and that

is essentially what part w is all about annalee i was reading about goldsmith street and what is really interesting is that if you have a public space, the Ginnall, where women and children are happy to be and safe to be, then that will encourage older people too to come out of their spaces and enter a public space. Yes, there's a really interesting study that's been done called Making Spaces for Play, which looks at the positive effects that children playing out have on everyone feeling secure in a space. And it's a really simple thing. You know, children playing, parents meet,

older people feel happy out. And, you know, I think it's really worth reading, like, studies like that to kind of work out how we start thinking about designing housing differently. There is a class question, isn't there? I just wonder how many people who design social housing grew up in social housing. What would you say about that, Annalie? Probably not many.

And I think that that's a real problem. The architecture profession is not diverse enough. It's not just about men and women. It is very monocultural and we need to be encouraging people from all sorts of backgrounds to design. There's no reason why it should all be, you know, men. No, thank you very much and And good luck tonight. But you don't get any money, though, I gather. I'm obsessed with money. No, but it's the glory. Thank you.

Well, enjoy yourself. Anna Lee Riches, who's on the shortlist for the Reba Sterling Prize for Architecture to be announced tonight. And you also heard from Zoe Berman, also an architect and founder of Part W, which is doing its bit to encourage the visibility of women in the profession of architecture. Now, Missouri is one of nine American states to have tightened its laws on abortion, making it much harder to get one. A law was passed in May, which meant abortion would only be available up to eight weeks. And of course, at that stage, some women might not even be aware that they're pregnant at all. That law was due to come into effect at the end of August. But in fact, a judge temporarily halted it.

But as you're about to hear, getting an abortion in Missouri, especially if you're poor, is not easy. Siobhan Tai has been to an abortion clinic in the city of St. Louis run by Planned Parenthood. I'm Kawana. How you doing? We'll go down, I'll give you guys a tour, you can ask as many questions as you want, I'll explain everything, I don't know how much you know about Missouri law. This clinic in St. Louis in Missouri has done a very rare thing considering it's providing abortions. It's decided to open its doors to me, partly because it's fighting its corner to survive. So why is no one here right now? We're done for the day, actually.

We have procedures scheduled earlier today. If there were women back here, I wouldn't be able to walk you through. There's one flight. Yes, I'm a step walker. I think the world needs to see and understand what abortion access really is and that abortion is health care and the only way we can really do that was to show people what it is, what it entails. But would the majority of abortion clinics open up like this?

No, no, because it's so taboo and people are fearful. Kawana Shannon is the Director of Surgical Services here at Planned Parenthood. She believes it's doing absolutely the right thing. I just want to be able to help women be able to live their life to the fullness of their ability. I want them to be able to get the birth control that they want. I want them to be able to just make decisions just like men get to make decisions. We do vasectomies here. No courtroom is concerned with their penis.

No courtroom is concerned with the decision that they made. They don't have to abide by any laws or regulations to be able to make a decision not to have any more children. But if a woman decides that this is not what's best for her life, she has to go through the entire state of Missouri. So the fight may be getting harder. I mean, we got a ruling today that I was happy and not happy about. Why? Because it was a half win to me. There's still work to be done. So that's what we'll do.

Kawana's talking about a judge's ruling back in August that put a temporary halt to the new abortion laws in Missouri. It means her clinic can continue providing abortions for now. She takes me and Reverend Tracy Blackman, who used to be on the board of this clinic, up the corridors and into the consulting rooms. So the patient comes, they're checked in by front desk, and then they first get an ultrasound. And we do that first so we can see exactly how far along they are. Regardless if they get an ultrasound, the state of Missouri makes us give them a urine pregnancy test.

Not really needed, but they make us do that. The waiting room that you showed us, the first waiting room, it's for people who are coming to Planned Parenthood, not just people who are here for an abortion, correct? No. So this is the abortion floor. Everyone here is here for an abortion. Yes.

So once they're done with ultrasound, they then do education. And that's when you really get to the heart and to the meat of everything. Because in the education room, that's when you're discussing how far along they are, what it costs, if they're experiencing any type of intimate partner violence, if they have so many children or whatever the case may be, if this was a rape, if this was something that was incest, if this is just they can't afford it. This is where patients really open up their heart to you and tell you what's going on with them and all of those type of things. You said what it costs. Do you have to pay to get an abortion here? Yes, you do have to pay to get an abortion,

but there are fundings. We have the Gateway Women's Access Fund. It's also true that federal funds are not used. No federal funds. And that's important that we say that because what is happening is that it's being promoted as though people's tax dollars are federal. Correct. And that is incorrect. And how much is an abortion? Abortions can range from $545 to $1,168. It depends on how many weeks you are. It's also important to note, in my opinion, this is also an economic issue. It's a class issue that people with access to money don't have to worry about how much an abortion costs. Don't have to worry about places that they can go and get some help on a sliding scale. So when we were discussing that in funds, all of that happens in the education room.

Once they are done with that, they didn't have to meet with one of our nurses to be able to go through a portion of the informed consent that the state of Missouri makes us complete. Okay. Once that's completed with the nurse, they then meet with the physician because Missouri law states that the same physician that does your procedure has to be the same physician that does consenting. This is where it gets complicated. This is where a woman can easily go from 72 hours of waiting to 240 hours of waiting, and this is why. If you have a woman coming from Kentucky and she's coming down on day one to do all of this stuff we're discussing right now, ultrasound, education, lab, consenting. And on procedure day, she is traveling

down the road and happens to bust her tire and she's unable to keep that appointment. If the next day she can come back is a different physician than the physician that consented her, she has to then come back here, reconsent, and wait another 72 hours. And that truly happens. A delay like that could happen. Absolutely. It happens often. This is not a could, it does. So I want to say again that that disproportionately impacts those who are economically challenged. Because if you're not economically challenged, you're not driving all of those miles. You're using a private physician.

So we're at the end of the corridor. Yes, so we're basically just discussed. We call it the front of the house, like day one type of things. Now we're going to move to the back of the house, and this is pretty much what happens on day two. So once the patient is called back, this is their dressing room. They get gowns. You've got a whole bank of green lockers here. Absolutely. Like you'd find in a gym or...

Exactly. After that, they then come over to our pre-op area. 11 or 12 recliner chairs. The nurses are doing intake at this moment, getting heart and lung assessments. They're putting in IVs, cervical prep medication. And do women tend to talk to one another? Absolutely. We want them to. What do they talk about? Sometimes we talk about their reasoning, about what they did last night and how much fun they had, or just strengthening each other, saying, okay, well, I'm next.

They pray for each other back or two. Whatever they need to do to digress, get ready to do this procedure, they do. They have all type of conversation. They talk about their kids. A lot of women who get abortions already have children. So they talk about their kids and the sports that their children play or if their kids had daycare. They have real life conversations while they're sitting here with each other. These are procedure rooms. We have three of them. This is where the actual procedures are done. So this is sterilization and decontamination,

basically when the procedures are done. Dirty instruments and things of this nature is brought to this room to be cleaned. And I know this is a contentious thing to say, but I need to say it anyway. Where does the fetus go? All products of conception tissue is sent to a laboratory okay where pathologists take care of it. Hi there can I talk to you I'm from the BBC in London. Outside the gates there are always

protesters handing out pamphlets and wanting to talk, but not to me. Oh no, sorry, we can't make any comments. You can't make comments? No. Can you tell us what you're doing today? No, I can't make any comments. Do you know what the reason is why you can't give any interviews or comments and yet you hand out leaflets? No thanks, I wouldn't

like to say anything more, but yeah, you're welcome to call our organisation and it's the Coalition for Life. You can call and ask for an interview thanks very much for your time thank you that was our reporter siobhan tai in missouri and tomorrow she's going south to alabama to speak to people who are against abortion and actively campaigning to stop an abortion clinic from opening in the state of alabama so that's tomorrow on woman. If you get, and of course you've already got it, the BBC Sounds all-encompassing, all-singing, all-dancing audio app, it's got everything.

It's got great archive stuff. It's got music playlists. It's got every single programme, live and not, provided by the BBC. It is superb. And the BBC Sounds app, yes, I have been told to plug it, on the BBC Sounds app, yes I have been told to plug it, on the BBC Sounds app this week, Woman's Hour is only a hot podcast.

It is the first podcast you see on BBC Sounds and there's more because we have a little extra podcast treat for you. It's called Woman's Hour's Five Frank and Fearless Moments and it features Deborah James, Scarlett Curtis and some good sex advice from Dr Ruth Westheimer. So I encourage you to listen to that.

That's available now on BBC Sounds. Tomorrow is the annual Autumn Fashion Item, which I'm glad to say is in the hands of Jenny. And on Thursday, how to help your children navigate social media so they get only positive influences. Good luck with that. Now, Sunitaaine is here um obe first ever black woman to be at the top of an oxbridge college you are now sanita the master of jesus college cambridge i'm very very uh very pleased to be the master of jesus college

cambridge well i'm going to tackle you first of all the term master's got to go at some point and what's the business about fellows? That's all got to stop. You know, no, I don't think so. I don't think so. If you got rid of it, how much money would you be spending in directional signage which you have to change? No, I'm quite happy with sitting in that.

I mean, it's a name, it's a word, and really it's about the person who does the job. And I, yesterday, I've been officially the master since October 1st. And yesterday I did my kind of swearing in ceremony in front of the fellows and also new fellows who are about to start. And it's a mix of, you know, men and women, obviously. It's a good kind of mix at Jesus. And it was actually one of those rare moments in society where you get to say an oath you get to kind of commit to a community and it's community which i have begun to really love actually i've

been there since end of august although i officially took over in sort of a um october the first but kind of meeting all the staff and students and fellows and you kind of in a way you kind of understand what that community is about meeting the alumni it's very special actually you know i think it's um it's something i actually we rush to change too many things i think sometimes well they haven't rushed it's very good they haven't rushed it game for each other i mean you're the first woman to be the Master of Jesus and although things are improving slightly, Cambridge last year, the figure I got was 58

black students admitted out of 2,612 Yeah, I can only go on what I've seen since I've been there and I obviously that's a figure which I think across the board in all the Cambridge colleges they're seeking to improve.

Over the summer, I saw a lot of the work that's been done at Jesus in terms of its fantastic outreach team, our student ambassadors. And we work not just on black students. I mean, we're kind of like, we're twinned with Newcastle, North and South Tyneside and Sunderland. We're kind of looking at the whole kind of class issue in terms of Cambridge. But this year, I'm the 146th fresher. We have 145 freshers.

Of that 145, 131 are from UK schools. And of that 131, 20% are BAME and 25% are from areas of underrepresented or disadvantaged. So my matriculation picture I went to today was amazing. It was really great. Sorry, when you were a student? No, yesterday. Yesterday, okay.

The students coming in at Jesus were just like, yeah, I defy anyone to kind of say, you know, we're not moving in the right direction. When you see stats, there's another one I'm going to throw at you now, that 68% of the students at Cambridge were state educated. Sounds okay until you realise that actually only 7% of British children are privately educated. So there ought to be 93% state educated kids. No, no, because 82% of state school students go to sixth form.

So let's look at the stats. So you've got a smaller pool, you mean? It's a smaller pool, but I think that those are the stats across university for Cambridge. If you look at the stats which are for other Russell Group universities, Cambridge actually features quite well. Again, for this year for me, going at Jesus College Cambridge, 74.2% of the students are from state school.

So we're doing well. The stats are moving and it's improving. Let's go back and talk a bit more about you. You did go to Cambridge, as I say, born in Barbados, brought up in London, and you set up this very, still is very successful media company called Something Else.

But you, before that, before you started it up, you'd got the sack, hadn't you, from, was it Jazz FM? No, I got made redundant from Jazz FM. I'll rephrase that. I got the sack once. You've never got the sack. Oh, no was it jazz fm no i got made redundant from jazz fm i'll rephrase that i got the sack once you you've never got the sack oh no yeah i'm sure it must be something i was sacked from i'm sorry mr deadline for a magazine or something like that and i deserve to get sacked for that one okay but no i got made redundant from jazz fm when they set up in the um in the late 80s 90s it was one of those the, the London licenses, they thought they'd rival capital.

You know, Charlie Parker's great, but I'm not sure he supports that much advertising revenue. And I think it was a tough advertising time. And it was a, I think it was probably in our sort of middle age memory, first real recession, where, you know, the kind of like, interest rates were really high, people were losing their properties. It was a tough time, so I got made redundant from Jazz FM. And you set up an indie. The next day, we kind of, you know, had designed our logo and, you know, printed off loads of headed paper. It was headed paper in those days.

Right. And decided to, you know, go for it, set up an indie. And it was a free... Actually, I think one of those things, which I kind of want to make sure that if I do anything as Master of Jesus College Cambridge, it's to kind of make sure that all the students get a sense of resilience, a sense of agency, a sense that they are, that it doesn't matter what life throws at them, they can kind of, they can cope with it.

So I think setting up that, setting up something else at that time was a real kind of freedom, a real sort of fearless kind of go for it. Well, and it's been phenomenally successful. If people are wondering what it is, for example, I know you don't work there anymore, Sunita, but it produces Gardener's Question Time for Radio 4 and a whole clutch of other programmes. Talking about being a student, I mean, this is obviously the start of the autumn term.

It's such a nerve-wracking time. I imagine it's much worse if you go to Cambridge or Oxford. These will be brilliant young people who have excelled in their schools and then find themselves in an environment where everyone is at least as brilliant as they are. Mental health, and we know that there are real challenges here for these young people. They're vulnerable, aren't they, in lots of ways? I think there's challenges across the board at all universities, actually. I'll come on to talk about Cambridge, but I do think that's something that we have to recognize in society and in a way um we ask for help more you know the work that's been done at schools on mental health and encouraging young

people to kind of step forward for help is something that i think universities are responding well to um over summer before i started on july theth, I went to a conference on student health and mental health and wellbeing. And that was looking at the transition from school to university. And that issue of the kind of which you touched on, which was, you know, you might have been at the top of your school and then you kind of arrived somewhere. You will have been, won't you? Yeah, you might have been second in your school, you know, three of you went kind of thing. So, you know, I think that that is an issue which does come up. But I think that what I've seen in terms of the whole holistic approach, especially at other Cambridge colleges and Jesus in particular,

where all members of the community are kind of involved in kind of lifting everyone up. There's the old African proverb, isn't it? It takes a village to raise a child. But I think that's very much true about a community which does that. So our approach is very strong in mental health. So there is somewhere and somebody for someone who's feeling vulnerable to go. There's lots. I mean, I think we have welfare tutors. We have an internal college counsellor.

We have our nurse. We have people who are. We have an internal college counsellor. We have a nurse. We have people who are looking out for people, whether it's kind of, you know, all the staff at all levels. Yeah, there is definitely somewhere. And also across Cambridge as well, they have the counselling service. I just want to read a quote. This is from Lady Hale. She went to a girls' state school in Yorkshire,

now, of course, the head of the Supreme Court. And she was talking, she was giving a speech to a girls' school last week. She says, I was a girly swat when I went to Cambridge. There were quite a few young men who were similarly girly swats, she said. But sometimes supervisions were invaded by the other sort of male student. Now, do you recognise this person, Sunita? Not particularly interested in doing much work and who concentrated on trying to put the supervisor off with silly questions.

You'll all be familiar with that as a pattern, says Lady Hale. I think she might be referring to the sort of man who currently occupies No. 10 Downing Street. I mean, maybe. Well, I can only speak to the truth of my own supervisions, and it was just me and Jenny Teichman doing philosophy, so there were no males. So but you know exactly what Lady Hale means there. There is a type and they're not just British men and they're certainly not just white British men but men who occupy the space with

utter entitlement and roll over everybody else. Yeah I'm not really sure I come across that many men because I try not to occupy a space back. So what are you saying, that it's the fault of the women to allow themselves to be dominated by these men? No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that, you know, I think, yeah, women have got a lot of strength, really. And I think that sometimes we kind of keep perpetuating this idea

that, you know, yeah, we're all going to be rolled over. No, I don't think so. I do think that there are certain, you know, I've been to those, you know, board meetings where men kind of feel they have to talk lots but that doesn't mean we're rolling over. We're not rolling over. I mean, this is like,

you know, for our college, this is our 40th anniversary and the big celebrations this weekend of women being admitted into the college. And yes, as you say earlier. It's only 40 years ago. 40 years ago. But, you know, when I was at Cambridge, I think in 1988 when I left, I think one of the colleges was just admitting women

and one was just admitting women when I started. But, you know, I do think that, you know, you've got pioneering women at Jesus, like Lisa Jardine, who was one of our first fellows. You know, she wasn't rolling over. I think she used to have these badges that she'd give out to people saying, behave badly.

I did bring one for you, but I left my handbag in the other room. So I'll post it to you. Thank you very much. And I will hold you to that. You've sat on a lot of boards with a focus on diversity. You were a member, too, of the BBC Trust,

which doesn't exist anymore, but you were a member of that. Yeah, I was a member of that, and I was a member of the Editorial Standards Committee. Right, which brings me on to the Nagamonchetti situation, which has been occupying the newspaper columns and lots of social media space, and indeed the minds, particularly of people of colour who work for the BBC what would you like to say about all that? Well I can only I can only

really answer the the question with a kind of the background of having been a member of the BBC Trust and the Editorial Standards Committee. I think it was a in a way there was three factors I think that kind of compounded that one I think that it's really important to support women of colour who are out front kind of doing their job

I think that the nature of the programme in a way you've got a programme which is on the one hand it's their news journalists but there's a kind of chat element to it. Yes, there is, yeah. And so you're trying to be kind of accurate on the one hand and also come across as authentic so that your audience are there with you in the morning. I don't think that actually Naga has done a lot of favours because actually, you know, Dan asked that question.

And she replied. Wouldn't have asked that question if it was a white woman sitting there or a white man sitting there. So she replied and she had to reply authentically. I do think though that, again, with the kind of Edutool Standards Committee head on, people have to be able to be genuine,

but they also have to be able to do their job. I think you have to define what that job is. I do think that there is a whole issue in our society about accuracy and impartiality. So I can see why there's kind of that kind of like, what does the BBC stand for? You know, as a growing up, if Maura Stewart had been in a situation reading the news and it was like, oh, she's got to kind of say something. I've been quite surprised to see that, actually. So I'm just saying in that context of that programme, I don't know what, you know, you're sitting there with your headphones on, your producers are over there kind of chatting. What producers?

It's all in the air. But, you know, I think there's issues around the kind of nature of the programme. Of course. But the plain fact is the BBC wants to employ women and men of colour, but do you think that sometimes there's been a reluctance for the BBC to acknowledge they will have a different experience to me? Well, they have a different experience, but it's where the job is there.

They'll still want to do their job. I think that's the thing. They still want to do their job. Actually, I don't that that's the thing i still want to do the job and actually i don't want to be uh you know people might not want to be in this position where they're having to kind of call out someone who's racist all the time i mean i think that um it's it's it's the nature of the program you've got a kind of chat program and a news program and they're different beasts they're different beasts if they combine and you then you have your you know person who's next to you, who knows about impartiality and all that kind of stuff, asking you questions, you have to come across as authentic. So therefore you have that issue which has then gone up to the complaints.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Sunita. I now know why you are the Master of Jesus College Cambridge and I am the presenter of all this. Thank you very much. Enjoy your new role. I think I've got the luckiest job in the world. No, it's fantastic. It's such a beautiful place. I'm incredibly jealous and you're going to have a brilliant time.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Sunita Elaine of Jesus College, Cambridge. Now, the chortling and general encouragement in the background came from our next guests who are Zoe Wanamaker and Drinker Svitovich I think I've got it was better the first time I think but anyway they are starring as respectively sort of Melania Trump in Drinker's case and Brigitte Macron in Zoe Wanamaker's case

this is in a new play it is a new play and that's significant by a woman called Nancy Harris and it's set behind the scenes of a major international conference. The big, important husbands are clashing over an international crisis and your two characters are... Well, where are you actually, Zoe? You're in some sort of back room, aren't you? We're in a huge conference centre in Nice. It's meant to be in Nice.

It's all anonymous and corporate and characterless, isn't it? Huge, it's massive. It's a massive building and they've been shoved in there. This room has been vacant, so this is where they've been put. Yes, you say put and shoved, and they are. You feel that is the way they've been treated. Yes. The room is on a lockdown, the building's on a lockdown

because there's been demonstrations outside. Quite interesting. It is interesting. And you play the character, you're married to the French president. Some bits we would recognise from real life. So you are somewhat older than your husband. You met when in circumstances that certainly a lot of people still find somewhat questionable in terms of she was a teacher, he was a student.

So that bit is true, but then it veers off. It's not all together authentic. The two characters are sort of a generalised view which I think Nancy Harris thought would be a good kicking off point because you never hear about these women and who they are what they are. We have

suppositions for instance Melania Trump is particularly in America is ridiculed for being stupid, a model and having no brains. And Mrs. Macron was Macron's drama teacher so and this but the difference as in the play says between european ideas of of the french ideas of people in power men in power having mistresses and marriages and all that which is fairly open still ridiculed but at the same time it's accepted yes yeah whereas in this country interestingly enough well i don't know things might be changing which is fairly open, still ridiculed, but at the same time, it's accepted. Yes, yeah. Whereas in this country, interestingly enough...

Well, I don't know, things might be changing. I don't know if you've read the papers. Well, exactly. So the supposition is of this, like the G7 summit, which was happening when we started rehearsing. Yes, I remember. Yeah, that's true, isn't it? And it was major. And all the women were there.

But these so-called trophy women never have a voice. They do these things like they children, claiming that they're addictive and dangerous. This is in the papers today. This is the campaign that she is attaching herself to. And to be fair, Zrinka, to Melania Trump, it isn't easy to be her, is it, to put it mildly? Well, you know what? We don't know. That's true. But we can surmise. That's what basically Nancy used as a kind of base. She said that she was watching a TV

and there was some kind of summit like a couple of base. She said that she was watching a TV and there was some kind of summit like a couple of years ago. And she was, you know, the cameras were on these two men, but the only thing she was watching and noticing were the two women. And she started to question herself like, oh, we don't know anything about these women.

Who are they when they close the door? And Zoe mentioned g7 summit now i there was a photo right of all the women and underneath the only thing that was written was bags designer of the bags shoes and dresses and you know it's like okay it is incredible that there is still even the expression first Lady is a really peculiar one. And actually, by the way, while we're on the subject, let's hear it for Philip May, Theresa May's spouse, who did doubtfully attend these international conferences, was often the only man in any of these pictures.

Angela Merkel's partner just doesn't go, doesn't involve himself at all, which is, I suppose, his decision and up to him. I want to give people an idea of the play. We're going to play an extract now. Zrinka's character, Sofia, in the play, is married to the US president, and here she is. She's just told Helen about her brutal gang rape at the age of 15 in a town on the Croatian coast just before the Balkans war.

Their politics is simply an excuse. They were men who wanted to send a message to let me know that my pretty face that aroused their desire or made them feel foolish was not more powerful than they were. If I think I can humiliate them by rejection or indifference, they're letting me know that no, no, no, no, no. We will always be able to humiliate you because we are the ones with the power.

Well, not anymore. I mean, you have power now. You're a first lady. You're married to the most powerful man. I mean, if you want to do, your husband could... My husband doesn't know. What? You think my country wants a first lady who's been gang raped?

They already think I'm a prostitute. That's not true. Oh, please. Ex-model, rich husband, Eastern Europe accent? If I was from Paris or from Italy like your other First Lady ex-models, if I was aristocrat, then yes, they would probably never say this, but I'm the wrong sort of European. There is no wrong sort of European.

Oh, my husband was so upset when I tried to explain this. But you know, he's not well-travelled. Maybe if he had known, he would have made a different choice of wife. You shouldn't make light of what happened. I'm not making light of it. I'm the last person who would make light of it. And you've really never told him?

I never told anyone, except you. That gives you an insight into the kind of relationship that develops between you and Zoe's characters. It's very intense. Is it tiring doing this night after night and sometimes twice a day, Jorinka? No, you know, it's a comedy.

It's really tiring. Because it's emotional and you have to be really concentrating in this one. There are funny moments in it, I should say. And also, I mean, I came away actually with more sympathy for Melania Trump than I had ever felt before. And I mean that. Well, that's great. Because the woman does have a backstory.

And you're right, Shrinka, we don't know anything about her experience, do we? Really? You know, to that, we kind of, as actresses, we can really relate to that, because in most of the interviews and, you know, situations on red carpets or whatever, they want to know who are you sleeping with, who did you come with,

what's the design of your dress and the shoes. And how old you are. Exactly. And, you know, they will start asking questions, like, about your part, but it will be one question And how old you are. they see, you know, these beautiful photos in the newspapers and they think, oh, actresses live this great life. Sometimes you do. But like, oh, it's a different life. It's a really interesting play, this.

It's called Two Ladies. It's a rollercoaster ride. It's a no interval. So you're just taken on this journey and it's brilliant. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you so much. That is the fantastic Croatian actress Zvinka Sviticic, who stars alongside Zoe Wanamaker

in that play Two Ladies they are two amazing performers those two and there's a real intensity between them during the course of the play so I recommend it, it's on at the Bridge Theatre in London until October the 26th Toilets

yes we do seem to spend a lot of time on Women's Hour discussing toilets but with good reason Emily says public toilets are not an equal issue I was at the old Vic theatre in London with gender neutral toilets divided with cubicles and others without

so now men can come into women's toilets this has not solved the problem of women's theatre toilet queues. No, and Emily, I think it's fair to say that is a live issue, that one. There's been some controversy over an article written for the Stage website, which had to be removed. And yep, this one is not over, what we do about toilets in public buildings.

This from Stephen, who says, we were rebuilding the toilets at a National Trust property I ran 30 years ago. The male architect has designed larger toilets for men and smaller ones for women. I had the design swapped around. Well done to you. Amazed to hear this is still an issue. Well, it really is. Brenner says,

Interesting piece about women in architecture, and you raise the subject of toilets, or rather the lack of them for women. Brenna says, area is in a disabled toilet and I have only found a disabled toilet with a separate baby changing area in some supermarkets. It takes a long time to change a baby and if for whatever reason you can't use the normal toilets you could be caught short. When are architects going to consider the needs of the disabled and put baby and hopefully older children and adults changing facilities in a room of their own. Thank you for that, Brenna. On to the interview with Sunita Alain, the Master of Jesus College, Cambridge. Helen says, really important point, you cannot get in if you don't apply.

That is true. And Ginny says, I just couldn't see the problem with the term master. Should we all then think of changing our master's degrees to mistress degrees well I suppose I mean I was sort of half joking when I put that point to Sunita but when you think about it obviously the language was designed at a time when women did not enter these places so we've got bachelor of arts and science degrees haven't we and you might become a fellow and you might become a master. And I said, is it time to challenge the language? Or as Sunita says, do we just, it's not a big thing and just get on with it?

I don't know. It's not, well, I do know what I think, but who cares what I think. Join Jenny tomorrow for the podcast. Amongst other things, she'll be talking about autumn fashion. And we'll also have the second of Siobhan Tai's reports on abortion in America. This time she's at an anti-abortion protest in Alabama. That's tomorrow. Hello. I just wanted to tell you about my new podcast.

It's called Classical Fix and it's basically me, Clemmie Burton-Hill, each week talking to a massive music fan. I mix them a classical playlist. They have a listen. They come in and we just see where the conversation goes. If you like to give classical music a go but you haven't got a clue where to start, this is where you start. To subscribe, go to BBC Sounds and search for Classical Fix. Now then, as you were.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.