Woman's Hour - Sophie Duker, Sudan sexual violence crisis, The Road Trip

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

Would you ask your friends to describe you in one word? Comedian Sophie Duker did. She joins Nuala McGovern to talk about hearing their responses and how it influenced her new standup show, But Daddy, I Love Her.Adele is in the headlines this morning after being accused of plagiarism in a Brazilian court for her 2015 song, Million Years Ago.Brazilian composer Toninho Geraes is seeking royalties - more than £125,000 - in moral damages for the alleged plagiarism, and songwriting credit for the track, claiming his samba song, Mulheres. influenced Adele’s song. Dr Karlyn King, lecturer in music business discusses. There's been an announcement of new vetting standards for potential and serving police officers and staff in England and Wales. The kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard by Wayne Couzens led to so many questions and brought to light other failures in policing. Now, following recommendations from the Casey Review, the Angiolini Inquiry and His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services report there is new guidance from the College of Policing on how police need to be vetted to protect the public. Harriet Wistrich solicitor and director of the Centre for Women's Justice explains why they welcome the new guidance.It’s 20 months since the start of the civil war in Sudan and the country is suffering a humanitarian crisis. Nearly 12 million people have been displaced, a famine is on the horizon and in October, a UN fact-finding mission said the scale of sexual violence taking place was staggering. Campaign group, Human Rights Watch, is calling for a dedicated UN mission to protect women and girls from sexual violence. Associate Director in the Crisis, Conflict and Arms Division at Human Rights Watch, Belkis Wille joins Nuala.The Road Trip is a brand new adaptation of Beth O’Leary’s rom-com book of the same name. It follows Addie and her sister Deb as they are forced to car-share on the way to a wedding with Addie’s ex-boyfriend and his best friend. Nuala is joined in the studio by Beth O’Leary and Emma Appleton, who plays Addie.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in a moment, why the singer Adele is accused of plagiarism in Brazil. Also today, new vetting standards for potential and serving police officers and staff. But

does it go far enough? Also, the actor Emma Appleton will be here with writer Beth O'Leary. Beth's best-selling novel, The Road Trip, will be on our screens over the holidays, with Emma in the driving seat of the camper van, which is host to a lot of action.

We also have comedian Sophie Duker back with us as she goes on tour with a new stand-up show. We'll hear the story of when Sophie asked her pals for feedback. Now, she was shocked when they described her very differently to how she thought about herself. So we're talking about mismatched feedback this morning. Has this ever happened to you? Maybe from a boss,

a colleague, family, friends, a partner, who told you what they thought you were like, whether that was solicited or unsolicited.

Do share your stories of the home truths delivered by those who maybe know you better than you know yourself. You can text the programme the numbers 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp voice note or a message.

It's 03700 100 444. And also today, we will hear about the consequences of the civil war in Sudan for women and girls. But let me begin with the UK's best-selling female artist of the civil war in Sudan for women and girls. But let me begin with the UK's best-selling female artist of the 21st century. I am, of course, talking about Adele. The accusations of plagiarism in a Brazilian court for her 2015 song, Million Years Ago. The Brazilian composer Toninho Gerês is seeking royalties of more than £125,000 in moral damages for the alleged plagiarism

and songwriting credit for the track, claiming his samba song Mujeres influenced Adele's song. Well, here to discuss these issues is Dr. Carolyn King, lecturer in music business. Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Tell me a little bit more about this case and how it came about.

Yes, this is a really interesting case in that the track in question by Adele was actually released in 2015. And previously it was questioned by another artist or rather the fans of the said artist, an artist based in Turkey. And I have to say the song is very similar to the track from the Turkish artist. But nothing really came of that. And then subsequently, this Brazilian artist has claimed that the track is plagiarism. In other words, it takes from his track and does not credit his work. And it's been a very long road.

And now they have granted that the song is plagiarism and must be removed from all streaming platforms and physical product. But this is coming, this ruling from Brazil. So does it have, does it resonate? Does it have those consequences globally as the judge was asking for? Yes, well, it is a global ruling.

So, I mean, the thing is, Adele will have some very, very good lawyers. Absolutely, she will fight this case. However, it has been ruled and these cases take such a long time to come to a verdict. You know, they have musicologists get involved and they go through the tracks with a fine tooth comb to look for similarities in melody, harmony. And they also look at the intention of the track and the recording vibe of the track, if you like. But they have deduced that this track is very, very similar. But what I will say is that we're only working with so many notes and chords here so there is a term in copyright called access so if it can be proven that Adele was exposed to the

track prior to release then absolutely it would be a very strong case but again it's very very hard to prove these things because we hear so much information and music on a daily basis. It's impossible to say if this has been a subconscious retelling of the track or something more sinister. Right, so that difficulty to prove on both sides, I guess. But with Adele and her lawyers, will they contest this? Do you know? So I believe they will. I can't speak for Adele but um I do believe that they will um I mean the track came out in 2015 it was quite a while ago so she might leave it in that case I feel if it was a more recent track perhaps it would have been it would be more heavily contested but I personally feel like it's very very similar um it's even more similar to the track by the Turkish artist.

So there is absolutely overlap. But equally, you know, being influenced by things, that's what all music is. Music evolves by being influenced by music that came before. So she may well argue that that was the case. Do we expect that song now to be retracted from all streaming, all platforms? That is what the ruling has asked for, yes, absolutely. Streaming platforms and also physical releases for it to be removed from any subsequent physical manufacturing, which is very interesting.

So, yes, following this litigation, yes, she will have to do this, but I believe she will contest it. And I suppose the question then, I don't know whether you're able to answer this or not, Carolyn, is whether it has to be, whether it can be played in that interim period between an appeal and this particular judgment. I believe not, because the ruling has been made and it has been a global ruling. So I believe not. But I guess we will see. These cases are very, very subjective. It's really down to the subjective ear of the musicologist.

Yes, they are experts in composition and in melody and harmony, but ultimately it's a very subjective call if something is incredibly similar or not. Yes, and you have said you believe it is, but that is just your view as a musicologist. In this particular case, others would have a completely different view. I do see that Adele has not commented this morning. It has, of course, been picked up in so many papers around the world.

The fact that she is such a huge artist, of course, makes it a newsworthy for so many. But I'm wondering, because we've seen other cases, Pharrell Williams, Ed Sheeran, for example, come to mind. Do you think this is going to continue or even become more exponentially growing in cases like this? You might think that AI might help or does it hinder? Your thoughts? That's a great question. I mean, these cases are all the time. There's way, way more than make the news. Yes, in terms of AI, at the moment in the UK, we don't have any legislation to protect on AI or to use it in a productive way as a composer. So at the moment, it's very much a free for all. I see it as very similar to the MP3 crisis in the late 90s, early 2000s,

when the law was not prepared for the release of the MP3 and the widespread sharing of it on the internet. And it took a long, long time to try and catch up with that. So I see this as a very similar situation. Fast forward 24 years. So the law is going to have to catch up. And AI can be used productively. It can be used as an assistant. So the sooner we have that legislation, the better for everyone. Dr. Carlin King, lecturer in music business, starting us off this morning on Women's Hour as we speak about Adele. Many of you getting in touch already about the feedback,

solicited or unsolicited. I found that generally when giving feedback about me, people would be pretty patronising, describing me as sweet, gentle, this kind of thing. I find it really hurtful as just sounds so condescending. I wonder if this is because I'm only five feet tall. Have other small women had similar comments? I'll throw it out to the listeners. 84844. Another, unsolicited feedback is always a criticism. I've had very hurtful and damaging

feedback that was more about the giver needing to assert dominance than it was to change my behaviour in my opinion 84844 mismatched feedback couple of examples there already keep them coming now next to an announcement

of new vetting standards for potential and serving police officers and staff in England and Wales the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard by Wayne Cousins led to so many questions and brought to light other failures in policing. Now they're

following recommendations from the Casey Review, the Angelini Review and His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services report. There is new guidance from the College of Policing and it's on how police need to be vetted to protect the public.

To discuss this further, I'm joined by Harriet Wistridge, Solicitor and Director of the Centre for Women's Justice. Good to have you back with us, Harriet. Thank you for joining us. The Centre for Women's Justice has welcomed this new guidance.

Why? I'd like to hear some of the specifics. Yeah, so the Centre for Women's Justice have done a lot of work around the phenomenon of police-perpetrated domestic abuse. We produced something called a police super complaint nearly five years ago, which found that this was a real systemic problem in policing, that there were police officers who were accused of domestic abuse

who were not being properly held to account, and some of them were rising up the ranks and sometimes working in areas where they were, for example, policing domestic abuse or working around public protection generally. And there were a whole range of problems around that. Now, after we produced that super complaint, there was this sort of emerging scandal, particularly within the Met Police, but elsewhere,

following the terrible murder of Sarah Everard and the discoveries around Wayne Cousins, her murderer, who was a serving police officer, who had transpired and subsequently a report showed that he had got through various vetting processes, even though there were allegations of indecent exposure and other reports and crimes about him. And then we had David Carrick, another Met police officer in the same unit, who subsequently transpired, had again escaped vetting, being promoted through the police, despite a number of reports about him being an abuser,

a rapist and abuser who's eventually caught and prosecuted. But, you know, the fact that these officers, and then we have the Casey review, Louise Casey went into the Met Police, discovered all these officers, some of whom had multiple allegations reported against them that were still serving officers. And that sort of mirrored what

we were finding with the police perpetrated domestic abuse. So clearly, there was a problem with police vetting that there were some officers who had been reported more than once, sometimes several times, who were still in the police and who were a particular danger to vulnerable people because of their status as police officers. So what do we know will change? It's called new vetting standards. What will it be taking into account? Well, what this guidance that has come out yesterday looks at is a much more robust system of vetting, which ensures not just, it also applies not just to police officers, but also others working with the police who may have access to particular powers. It's about really trying to make it a much, much stricter process and to ensure that misconduct of all sorts and reports of misconduct is taken into account.

I think what's really important, and there are some things that we're not sure it goes quite far enough. It still relies on self-reporting. Really? So officers are under a duty to disclose if there's been a change in circumstance. And that obviously should include, you know, if there's been any reports about them and so on. Now, the officer's manager also has to, you know, is under a duty as well. But the question really is, well, you know, what ways and what are the ways in which vetting processes can be assured that they have all the relevant information and to what extent you know no one

you know an officer's not going to necessarily disclose that he's you know engaged in misogynistic behaviour or harming somebody unless that comes to the attention somehow or other of the vetting officer. Because my understanding, just on that particular point, Harriet, is that the self-reporting, which was also part of the previous guidance, was severely criticised. Yes, I mean, that was one of our key points. Now, as I understand it,

I have to say I haven't studied the new guidance really closely, so I'm not quite sure how it will differ. But there do seem to be additional ways in which the reports can be made. But I can't see anywhere, for example, where, for example, a woman who is a victim of domestic abuse can somehow or other, you know, if she doesn't have confidence to make a report to the police directly, whether there is a mechanism for her alerting the police, so they have this intelligence, even if she's not willing to go through the criminal process. And there are very many women who aren't willing to do so

for sometimes obvious reasons, because the police are going to be investigating and they don't trust the police. But at least to try and pass that information on so that the officer can be questioned in a vetting process. And it is a huge document which goes through a lot of these specifics. But you talk about, you know, if there was misogynistic behaviour.

Is it specifically allegations of domestic abuse or of sexual misconduct that you think should be drilled down into? Or are there other things as well that you want guidance to be enforced on? Yeah, I mean, I don't think the guidance is necessarily explicit enough about domestic abuse and and sexual misconduct it talks about integrity and corruption and all sorts of things and traditionally i think police vetting was very much focused on things like financial dishonesty and that those sorts of, you know, kind of ways in which officers are dishonest and not and not sufficiently on on kind of they describe as corruption when you misuse your position as a police officer. But it's it's a different different way of understanding integrity and dishonest but but but i mean the you know it should be first and foremost from what we've seen over the last um you know a few years uh misogyny and and also racism obviously

as well um should be a kind of key key kind of signal of uh this is the wrong sort of person that we want within within the police and and there should be what you And it should be very, very clear and should be part of the process of vetting so that we ensure that we have police officers who are there to serve the public and not to abuse their positions through access to vulnerable people, for example. A couple of things.

One, the interpretation of the words is really interesting. I also keep on bringing up the word guidance. I mean, is there specificity on whether it will be enforced? Well, I think it's called, what's it called? It's authorizedized Professional Practice. So this is how it's supposed to be. The question really is the extent to which those in vetting are able to access the information intelligence

and really ensure that officers are kind of assessed safely and properly so that we don't have officers in those positions. We're pleased that they do recognize that some officers, and certainly we've seen this with some of the cases of women who've come forward to us, that they've been in a relationship with the officer, they've tried to report them for domestic abuse, the domestic, the report, you know, that there hasn't been a finding. And then the officer is rising up through the ranks and is in occupying a position where he's in, you know, working with child protection or around domestic abuse. And, you know, he's in a senior position around that.

And that kind of has sometimes given him even more protection because he's seen in that way. And what's really important is obviously we know that only a small proportion of allegations of domestic abuse are prosecuted and that the misconduct process is very slow. But, you know, because somebody isn't found guilty or isn't prosecuted doesn't mean that there aren't credibility in the allegations. And they should be questioned around that. But also, for example, findings in family courts. Sometimes there are positive findings in family courts, and that ought to be something that vetting officers are aware of, where there is just, you know, those sorts of... I understand these complex, very complex cases, for example,

and we begin to see just how wide ranging it can be. One thing that came to mind, Harriet, you know, if you have a police officer, for example, that has gone through maybe disciplinary action, for example, for alcoholism or some other issue, maybe not domestic abuse or sexual abuse. But with issues like that, do you feel there can be rehabilitation? You know, people want to hire and retain police officers that live in the real world, for example, that have empathy for the people that they're interacting with on a daily basis? Yeah, I mean, I do think that there are, you know,

certain sorts of behaviours that may be down to particularly stressful situations, which don't necessarily make officers a danger to the public. They may need assistance, like, you know, drink or something like that. So I don't may need assistance like, you know, drink or something like that. So I don't think that there's, you know, I recognise that it's difficult to recruit officers who are committed and good, but may, you know, may be living under stressful circumstances. But the important point is that we don't have officers there who are abusers or who have the potential to abuse or, you know, cause real harm to others in those positions of power. So there should be zero tolerance in relation to those sorts of allegations.

Harriet Wistrich, Solicitor and Director of the Centre for Women's Justice, taking a look at new guidance that is out today. Thank you very much for staying with us on Women's Hour. We'll continue to cover that story off course. I want to read some of your comments coming in on the feedback you've got from others. I've had positive unsolicited feedback or comments from friends and colleagues, which I found to be very refreshing and reassuring. Following some tough times,

which I felt had a real impact on my disposition, positivity and outlook on the world. I felt that I had lost the sunshine I once had, but I've become more of a drain rather than a radiator. We've spoken about those people, haven't we? Those pals that we have. I've recently been referred to

as a ray of sunshine, optimistic and warm, which has made me reflect on how I see myself and has made me realise I had not lost myself as much as I thought I had. So a positive one there, 84844. Lots of you getting in touch. I'll get to some more of your comments there

as we go through the programme. But I want to turn next to a question. What would you do if you suddenly got to drive to a friend's wedding in Spain with your ex? Well, that is the premise behind the new romantic comedy, The Road Trip. It is an adaptation of the book of the same name by Beth O'Leary. There's Addy, one character, and her sister Deb having to share the long drive to Spain with Addy's ex-boyfriend Dylan,

also his quite annoying friend Marcus, and Rodney, a friend of the bride who nobody knows. It's sarcastic comedy, laugh out loud moments, emotional tugs of the heartstrings. And I'm delighted to say that we have the actor Emma Appleton, who plays Addie, who's in the driving seat in that camper van. And the author Beth O'Leary with us both in studio. Good morning. Good morning. Good to have both of you here. Beth, I'm going to start with you. Where did the story for the road trip come from? Yeah I actually I had the idea for the two people crashing cars and then having to get in the same

vehicle years before I wrote it and I couldn't really work out who the two people were to each other but I was really drawn to that literal car crash you know it's such a I mean it's a metaphor we use isn't it for an emotional disaster and I loved the idea of sort of taking that trope and doing a, you know, a fun my own spin on it. And it was actually only when I was on holiday in France and I had this sort of little creative yen to write a really hot summery love story. Oh, yeah. I loved watching it last night. It brought me to, you know, blue skies and sheer cliffs that a camper van might. Very sheer cliffs.

And hairpin turns that, you know, that you might have an issue trying to drive around with your ex, for example. But where was it filmed, actually? I was wondering, was it the Canaries?

It's meant to be in Spain, but I was trying to look at the credits. It's Gran Canaria. It's Gran Canaria, yeah. Gran Canaria, it looks very beautiful. It's the side be in Spain, but I was trying to look at the credits. It's Gran Canaria, isn't it? It's Gran Canaria, yeah. Gran Canaria, yeah, it looks very beautiful. The side of Bristol.

Yes. Which is exactly what we need over the holiday season. But how did you find seeing, you know, the words you've written on the page being on the small screen, or maybe it was a big screen that you watched it on? Yeah, it's such a surreal feeling, to be honest. It's amazing it's it's but in a way you kind of have to see it as I think it's not quite my story anymore do you know what I mean the book in the same way that when I publish the book and it goes out to

readers you know the characters become kind of theirs instead of just the little people that I'm carrying around in my head for the year whilst I'm writing it I think it's sort of an extension of that so I have this it's a weird experience because I'm kind of watching it and thinking, oh, this is great. I'm enjoying it. And then I sort of get jolted into remembering, oh, this is Addy. This is my Addy. You know, it's like the two versions exist at once. What about Emma sitting beside you? Is she your Addy now? That's such a good question because I think as a reader, you often find that when you watch something on screen, that person becomes who, you know, they almost take over the version of the character that you had in your head.

And it happens a little bit as an author as well. You get that slight feeling of, so you kind of are my Addy now. It's happened. Well, what about you, Addy, Emma? You know, because I watched you as well in Everything I Know About Love, which was another adaptation. That was Dolly Alderton's novel. What is it about the rom-coms? I love a rom-com.

I've always loved a rom-com. And I feel like we are in, you know, a time now of the rom-com kind of progressing and seeing different relationships. And I think that's what Beth does so well with all of these kind of relationship dynamics. I'd never read a rom-com kind of like this. Similar with everything I know about love, of exploring love in different ways and what those relationships look like, you know? Alderton character has with her best pal, Bell Powie, who's often been in the studio too. But I love the relationship in the road trip between the two sisters, Beth. So that's Debs, who's this very characterful as well, creation who, and it's the two sisters and what you tell your sister and what you don't.

Yeah, I always wanted there to be strong love stories in the novel that weren't just the romantic central love story. So in that car, you have the two of them and all of the kind of history. In the front seats. Yeah. Which I like, the women are in the front seats, driving and passenger.

The boys have to sit in the back. But yes, you have sort of Dylan and Marcus, his kind of oldest friend, and then Addie and Dev, her sister. And those kind of, they're their people almost, you know, not just your romantic love. Like writing, there's three love stories really in the car, I'd say. As I weave my way through the roads with them. I'm not finished it yet, but I'm making my way through the series, which will be on Paramount Plus from Boxing Day.

But so much of it takes place inside this camper van and Annie of our listeners of which there are many that have travelled in a camper van

it can be quite a close environment It can be a bit cabin fever yeah do you know what I look back on it now with like quite heavy rose tinted glass

I'm like we had a lovely time oh it was great and it was great but it was interesting to spend that amount of time in a confined space but i think also really lent itself to the scenes and the character dynamics and if you are getting a bit fed up with each other you could really you know use that um you play a lot of car games they look now did i get this right that you don't drive in real life? Correct. This does keep coming up, actually. Well, it's because it's...

Funny that. I think particularly because, I mean, you know, we've had people in here that maybe didn't ride a horse and then had to learn how to ride a horse or whatever. But you didn't have to learn how to drive. They asked me to learn to drive because China, our director, who I've worked with before, went, look, I know you can't drive, but, you know,

you're going to be doing this job. Can you learn to drive in two weeks? And I said, said absolutely I can learn to do anything in two weeks turns out it's quite hard to learn to drive well I think particularly that camper van let's be fair yes precisely although I was learning to drive in a car but um hey it looks like I'm driving which is the main thing but horses anytime okay do you have any novels coming up with horses, Beth? Oh, I mean, I can work on that for you. I can do my best. My brain is now whirring. So who knows?

You know, with your writing, I was really struck by this, that you write a novel once a year approximately. Lots of people remember The Flat Chair, for example. Maybe once every 18 months when you have a baby of which you have two and that during night feeds you were writing and the writing was fiercer and more powerful can you tell me more about that yeah well I actually worried quite a lot about my writing after having a baby a few people sort of said to me before I had my first oh you know as soon as you have the baby all thoughts of work will go out of your head and actually for me that's quite you know writing isn't just my work it's like who I am in so many ways if I'm

not writing I don't feel like me and I felt a bit worried that I would lose that kind of feeling I suppose that when when the babies came along and it's hard to your identity exactly and and that hasn't hasn't been the case I've just found different ways so yes night feeds um I started writing on my phone that was a big shift because you always have your phone on you and it also took the pressure off because it's almost like sending a little message you know even if you just write a few lines that that's what I was wondering is it I often write notes on my phone because if I don't write it down I won't remember it with an idea or something but um but I'm just thinking about with prose what that's like or does it I don't know open a different window they're they're definitely I couldn't do every part of writing an awful on a phone um it's just I mean a hundred thousand words it's just logistically a

lot to scroll but um definitely writing new first draft content you know some just jotting down paragraphs um is something that I will find I can do one-handed is a little bit more advanced that's you know trying to you need to and if you're breastfeeding you gotta get the other arm out so you can so you can use them both to type but uh no I've I've it's for me it's it's just such an important part of keeping myself feeling like me that I always wanted to keep writing where and when I could. Will some of that writing, will it appear in Swept Away, your next novel? Yes, actually. And it's very much sort of in that novel in a strange way. It's Swept Away is about, this doesn't sound like it will have a baby in it,

because it's about two strangers who end up lost at sea together after a one-night stand on a houseboat that is swept out to open ocean. So on the face of it, it has two adults in one boat for most of the novel. But actually, I think motherhood has really worked its way in there, interestingly, and kind of that. How? I think it's partly just in that there's a character, one of the women on the boat has helped to raise her best friend's daughter.

So she is sort of missing that child back home. And I think I was writing some of that feeling of the pull of being away from your little one. But also, I think just the kind of new love that becoming a mum had shown me. I think I, as a writer of love stories, I'm obviously fascinated by that. And I think that kind of, I don't know, almost a love and exhaustion, love in crisis, as it kind of feels like in those. That is the name of another book.

Love and exhaustion. Yes. There you go. I think a lot of people would relate. Put it in your notes, Anne. You can take out the phone. It's fine. Exactly.

I think this is recorded. You heard it here first. But let me turn to you, Emma. What's next for you? I did hear trying your hands at ceramics. Yes. When did I say this? Probably, yes.

I have thought about that quite a lot, actually. I don't know. I think it's, I love anything that's kind of tactile. I think for me, it's really important to do other things that aren't my job because I love my job. How do you do that, though? Because you're on the up and up.

You're a successful actor that is getting these wonderful roles that are very much front and centre, part of the fabric, for example, of what we're watching on television. How do you decide what to say no to and how do you have that balance for example to think about ceramics which is a lovely thing to think about i mean it's funny because you get a lot of downtime so i'm very lucky in that i will be on a job for four or five months and that will be what i think about solidly but then i'll have time off of four or five months where i'm like okay what am i going to do with myself like how am i going to fit other kind of creativity into my life because I find that and that feeds into

the jobs I do so I kind of need to have like a mix of things going on you know and that's interesting as well that you're thinking about something that is not I don't know behind the camera or having to write having to stay within that industry sphere. Yeah, it's kind of completely different. And I like the kind of separation. And also, I think talking about identity, you know, I never want to feel like acting is simply everything I do and completely my identity. I want to, I don't know, explore other things and kind of see what I enjoy. And also, you know, if you get really good at ceramics, you don't have to buy bowls and mugs anymore.

And then when someone comes over, you're like, yes, I did make this. This is an excuse to show off. That's what it is. Isn't everything that we do. I'm wondering, have either, you know, I'm asking listeners this morning about mismatched feedback. I don't know if you heard a little of the programme. We have Sophie Duker coming on in a bit. And she talked about, you know, she asked her friends, what's my vibe?

And she expected one thing. And instead she got something completely different back from her friends. And lots of people are getting in touch as well about how they have been surprised by feedback from partners or bosses or kids or whatever. Any examples of that? I can see you're thinking deeply there, Beth. Well, I mean, feedback is the most terrifying part of my job

because reader reviews are a, yeah, they're a source of both, you know, the most profound joy because when a reader says to you, you know, this book got me through something tough or I connected with this character, it's, you know, I read, I write, you know, for those people. And it's so lovely when that happens, but when it doesn't happen and they don't feel that, oh God, it cuts you so deep. And even, I mean, I'm now, you know, I'm publishing, I've published five books now.

It still hurts. Do you read old reviews? No, no. I've learned that that is the way to really get in your own head when you're writing because you suddenly sort of feel like everyone's looking over your shoulder I think if you're kind of thinking all the time about, at least for me, I find

What about you Emma, reviews? Um, I yeah, I mean I can't help myself sometimes. I will kind of look but then I'll also ask my agent to give me just like a brief overview and just tell me the kind of bare bones of it um yeah so try not to too much because also you're not making it for that reason right and you never think about that when I'm in the filming process I don't think like you know so yeah you're getting feedback from the public all

the time so I don't have to ask you about what it's like on personal mismatch. Yeah, I think he's trying to get away from feedback. I can totally understand that. Beth O'Leary, Emma Appleton, thank you both for coming into studio. And again, the road trip is on Paramount+. From Boxing Day, if you need a little bit of blue sunshine, perhaps on an overcast day.

Your messages continue to come in. Hi, I recently went on a first date with a guy who seemed perfectly nice. The following day, he sent a message thanking me for a lovely evening and saying how much he liked me as I was so gentle and passive. I have travelled and worked all over the world,

spent six years working in remote areas of Haiti, have always been fiercely independent. I was so shocked by that first impression that I've been reeling ever since. Now I'm evaluating every interaction. If anything, I have always considered myself to be a bit fierce. It is so interesting. Yes, it is.

84844 if you'd like to get in touch. We'll be speaking about it further with Sophie Duker in a few minutes' time. I want to turn to details first on how the civil war in Sudan has created a dangerous environment for women and girls. It is 20 months since a vicious struggle for power between the Sudanese armed forces called the SAF and the rapid support forces, the RSF, which are a paramilitary group since that struggle for power began. The fallout is extensive. We know there are nearly 12 million people displaced, a famine on the horizon. And there is also a UN report that came out a couple of months back,

which called the scale of sexual violence taking place staggering. Now the campaign group Human Rights Watch is calling for a dedicated UN mission to protect women and girls from sexual violence. I have Belkess Ville with me. She is Associate Director in the Crisis, Conflict and Arms Division of that group. There may be distressing details. I do want to let you know as we begin our discussion. Good to have you with us, Belkess. You went to Sudan in October. Can you tell me a little bit of what you found when speaking to women and girls? So this was the first time that Human Rights Watch was able to enter Sudan since the civil war broke out last April.

We entered into a southern part of the country, South Kordofan. That is an area that's relatively stable because it's under the control of an armed group that's not one of the two warring parties, the Rapid Support Forces and the Sudanese Armed Forces. And so in that relative stability, of course, you've seen many hundreds of thousands of people who fled other parts of the country where the fighting is raging to this area of relative calm. And there we were able to interview 70 people who had been displaced to that area. They were almost all from the ethnic Nuba group. And they told us horrific stories of witnessing violations and experiencing violations at the hands of the RSF, one of the killing of 56 civilians, including 11 women and a child. And these were mostly killings execution style inside of people's homes, or RSF fighters shooting people as they were in the streets trying to flee. And through the testimony that we collected, we documented 79 cases of women and girls being raped by the RSF,

including girls as young as seven years old. And in the context of these rapes, we documented a group of women and girls who actually were taken and held as sex slaves at an RSF military base. And I know some people find the term sex slaves offensive. These are people that have been enslaved and sexually exploited. The RSF, which is the paramilitary group, the Rapid Support Forces, they have in the past denied accusations of war crimes. What have they said to Human Rights Watch in response to these allegations?

In the context of this report, we got no response from the RSF. We write to them whenever we're publishing new findings of abuse. This is the practice we have in every country in the world where we document abuses.

So they did not deem our research or our findings worthy of a response in this instance, it seems. We have previously engaged with the RSF because, sadly, this is not the first report we've done on sexual violence and rape at the hands of RSF fighters. Last year, they did respond to a letter of ours. They said they were taking action in order to ensure that cases of rape did not occur. But unfortunately, what we see through this research is that rape is happening at the hands of RSF fighters really across Sudan with complete impunity. Yes. And also with the fact-finding mission that took place in October by the UN, they did say both sides of the conflict may be guilty of atrocities.

But let us come to the specifics that the UN, that you are calling for Human Rights Watch, for a dedicated UN mission to protect women and girls from sexual violence. How has that been discussed, if it has, at the UN?

And what would it entail exactly? So this is indeed a recommendation that we started making actually off the back of research we did in Eastern Chad at the end of last summer. We were interviewing people who had fled from Darfur

of the Masalit ethnic minority group. of last summer, we were interviewing people who had fled from Darfur of the Mas'alit ethnic minority group. And there again, we documented wide scale killings of civilians, torture, injury, looting, destruction, and indeed many cases of rape. At that time, we collected the details of dozens of women and girls who had been raped. And so we started to call for the UN Security Council and the African Union to urgently deploy a mission to protect civilians in Sudan. You know, many countries in emergency contexts

will have a dedicated UN mission that is set up to address the needs in that country. I'm sure some listeners will be surprised to know that at the moment in Sudan, there is absolutely no UN mission. And that is because it is too dangerous or too difficult to enter? How do you understand it, in your opinion? Unfortunately, I think it more so comes down to political will. You know, it's not, this is a new situation in the sense that there have been other UN missions in the past, but these have to be maintained by UN resolution. And so the last UN mission that was in place, which did not have a mandate to protect civilians,

but rather had a mandate to facilitate political negotiations between the two warring parties, that was shut down. And since then, there is no institution in the country there to protect civilians. So in our view, you are going to continue to see civilians brutalized and victimized by the warring parties, as long as there is no institution there to protect civilians. But with Human Rights Watch itself, Belkis, that it has been difficult to go to certain parts of the country, even to document,

because it's just simply too dangerous to go into those areas, correct? So I think that's something we've heard often from diplomats in the halls of New York at the UN. But I'm even saying for your group, for Human Rights Watch, it can't go everywhere.

We can't go everywhere, but that doesn't mean we can't enter Sudan. And again, you know, part of our motivation for this trip in October was to push back on these claims by diplomats, particularly in New York in September, when they were saying, well, you know, maybe this idea to set up a mission is a good one. But you know, it's not safe in Khartoum, it's not safe in Darfur, how could we possibly establish a presence. And what we wanted to show through this mission is that there is a region of the country in South Kordofan in the Nuba Mountains area, that is relatively stable, there is an ability to be present there. In fact, there are some UN offices that are present there at low level. And so one could establish a UN mission in a relatively stable area. And then it would be from there that UN boots on the ground essentially could start to protect civilians. I understand. And I don't have a response from the UN on this specific request by Human Rights Watch. But if they were able to establish a mission to protect women and

girls, what would that entail? The women and girls coming to them, trying to negotiate with the RSF, what would it look like? Well, so a mission to protect civilians would, of course, have this broader mandate. And that would require, of course, taking more forceful action. You know, potentially that means peacekeeping forces. Right. So you're talking about getting troops in on the ground. And that is actually what other countries have been calling for. So there have been other countries, including those in Africa, who recognize the need to have some kind of, you know, presence that would protect civilians. And in fact, it was the UN Independent International Fact-Finding Mission that has also

now called for the deployment of a mission to protect civilians, with the former president of Malawi actually endorsing this call. So it's not just Human Rights Watch, who's calling for this. And in fact, it's really civil society and Sudanese civilians and their representatives making this call. And what we would say is, you know, in addition to potentially a peacekeeping element, then that would also allow for, you know, what is known in the humanitarian space as protection teams, staff that are dedicated to and have expertise in providing protection services to civilians. And this would include making sure that survivors of sexual violence in particular have access to comprehensive medical and psychosocial support services. Again, these are the kind of services they could provide in this relatively safe.

I understand, particularly for those who arrived there. As you talk about South Cordovan, which is one of the states in Sudan. Belkis Vile, thank you so much for speaking to me. And Belkis is the Associate Director in the Crisis, Conflict and Arms Division of Human Rights Watch and Sudan, the Civil War, sometimes called a forgotten war. Your messages continue to come in. Here is one. I don't have a name, but I do have a message. I was terrified of my boss in my first job and so made a lot of mistakes. At my annual appraisal, he called me willful, suggesting I was deliberately doing things my way rather than the

right way. I was so astounded that he could have got me so wrong that all my reticence disappeared and I said, I do things wrong because I'm terrified of you. So I don't think things true. We got on better after that. So a bit of feedback for both. Here's B, Kingston upon Thames. I had a committee chairman once who told me I was a real

glass half empty person, which surprised me. When I mentioned it to a member of my staff, she said, no, she thought there's about, I was about, there's this much liquid in the glass, person, like very exact. I found that helpful, said Bea. One more. It was

the 1970s. I was in Athens and met a man from the Middle East. I think he was. So he said he could read anyone's character, but it didn't always go down well. Of course, I asked him to read mine. He said, you appear very compliant, but you can be made to do anything. You can't be made to do anything you don't want. Okay, seemed compliant, but actually no, stubborn. I never saw him again, but felt he had explained why people, especially men, always got me so wrong.

That is Julia. Well, listening to all that is my next guest. She asked, how would you describe my vibe to her friends one day? But she did not get the answers she was looking for. That is comedian Sophie Duker. Welcome back to Woman's Hour.

Hey, welcome back to me. Yes, I wanted to say welcome back to you and I'm like, you're always here. Yes, well, I'm glad to be welcome back into your company. And thank you for bringing a little bit of festive cheer

with giant tinsel pink earrings. Oh, these old things. Yeah, it's kind of when you feel like your face is asleep, so you want to distract with as much light as possible. I need those earrings. So you asked your pals, how would you describe my vibe? They came back with, well, do you want to say? Just insults, really.

Just quite humbling things. Niche was what I got. Yeah, I always thought I was a classical mainstream beauty, but it turns out I'm very much avant-garde. What else? I can help you. Intense. Intense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, coffee is intense. That's good. And I think the corker. Oh,'ve completely daddy issues daddy issues yes daddy issues hey i do do this job i am i am i am speaking on the radio as a stand-up comedian i think that's usually the assumption you have a new show i have a new show it's called but daddy i love her and so you're exploring some of the mismatched feedback yes um so there is a big sequence in my new show when I kind of, I'm very like trying to find out what my vibe is,

what I give off as a human, ask my friends at a house party what my vibe is, and none of it is flattering. But the show itself is about delusion. It's about being Delulu and about my own daddy issues, both biological daddy issues and sugar daddy issues. So the Delulu. Yes. I know it's kind

of younger demographic is using that instead of deluded yeah instead of instead of delude instead of delusional so delusional is kind of like tawdry but delulu is i say in the show it's like delusional but camp right it's like fun it's fancy it's like romanticizing your life um can you do that with daddy issues can you do it with daddy issues i think you do it with daddy issues? I think so. I think you can sort of put a spin, like a little rose-tinted sunglasses on the world and be like, instead of being like, oh, that man is, you know, giving me a pervy smile. You could be like, he's just reaching out, looking for a friend. I will cross the street, but I'll appreciate the sentiment. So you have these competing narratives going on. First,

how did you feel when your friends gave you the answer? Oh, I think it's interesting to see yourself the way that other people see you. Like my friends have said very, very many damaging things to me over the years. They said that I had a really old soul. They were talking about their souls. And they were like, I have a childlike soul. I have a teenage soul. I thought old soul was a compliment. Well, they said I had the soul of a crotchety old lady, which doesn't feel like I was meant to be born in the 60s. I think it means

like, yeah, I give Nana energy. Or just sometimes spiteful, you know, like Maleficent vibes. Maybe a hangover from my last show, Hag. But yeah. Which we did speak to you about at that time. I very much remember. I thought you were too young to be thinking

some of the Hag vibes at the age of 30-something. Yeah, that is some of the feedback I got at the age of 30 at the time. But hey. And these are your friends, right? Yeah, people, yeah. That is the label that they originally had. Now I'm not so...

I think your friends are the best people to give you straight up stuff like they won't sugarcoat it they'll be like yeah this doesn't really suit you or like you're not the kind of person that can sit through that or you know they kind of really cut to the core and and was there consensus among your friends I would say most my friends they would say that I'm intense which I think I think I'm a chilled out girl you know I eat food off the floor intense, which I think I'm a chilled out girl. You know, I eat food off the floor. Sure. Like, but I think that there's a certain eldest daughter energy that I bring to the table.

Oh, eldest daughter. There's another talking point we could have. Do you want to hear some of the messages coming in? Because we're asking about mismatched feedback. I was devastated to be called into my manager's office and told that I was too enthusiastic and working too hard and liaising too often with the ward staff and that I was showing up the rest of my NHS community team. I was 27 years and just three months into the role. Too enthusiastic. This is giving some some male feedback. I have no idea. I'm just reading the comments. Here's another Lizzie got in touch. My auntie once described me completely out of the blue in front of my family as flaky. I've never forgotten it. I'm still not sure what she meant at the time.

I had two young children of my own, four and six, three stepchildren who stayed every other weekend, aged eight to 15, and was working as a part-time secondary school teacher in central Portsmouth

in one of the toughest schools in the area. Anything but flaky. Wow. I mean, Christmas is a real time for your family to assassinate you with feedback. You're just like,

you're like folding a napkin and they're like, okay, is that how we would do the potato? So the constant feedback, whether it's solicited or unsolicited, 84844 if you want to get in touch. Okay, the show is called But Daddy, I Love Her

and you are on tour across the UK and Europe in 2025. Why the name? Why the name But Daddy, I Love Her? Because, okay, so I really need to say this at the top. It's not a Swifty thing. It's not Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift has a song called But Daddy, I Love Him. But that is referencing the OG Ariel from The Little Mermaid, the queen of delusion. And I think that she, Ariel, the little mermaid, is just kind of like the epitome of living that fantasy life. She's a fish. Why are people so into her? Why are people so into Ariel?

Because she, I'm going to say it, has a childlike soul. I thought you were an old soul. That is what my friends would say. Maybe that is a lie I tell myself. She's just like the ultimate baby girl. She's like combing her hair with a fork, living for tomorrow, like transforming her reality. Like she's, I mean, she's under the sea, but she's literally up in space and she gets everything she wants in the end. Because you talk about the power of believing our own lies. I'm

fascinated by this, you know. So if I've got this right, you think embrace that fantastical, delusional fantasy world instead of being down on earth in perhaps a cold, bleak reality. I think so. It's definitely about fantasies over cold, bleak reality. You've got to like, I think to get through life and to get what you want, you need that extra hit because lots of the time, the facts, the stats, the reality of what's happening is kind of bleak or everyday. And you need to be a little bit loopy

to push yourself into making your dreams come true. It's like kind of fake it till you make it, but with a little bit of extra spice. Interesting. Can we get back to the daddy issues for a moment? Yes, of course. All roads lead to daddy issues. You talk about going to therapy with your father,

who was absent a lot during your childhood. What was that like? I don't know if I would recommend it. It is another very... If you're scared about asking your friends about your vibe, going to therapy with your dad is a whole roller coaster. And he was up for it. He was up for it.

Yeah, he's I think there comes a time like when you are an adult and your parents are also adults, when you're like, huh, you're a full person. You've got flaws. I got to kind of reevaluate my opinion of you. So I think it was a really cool, slightly delulue, nuts thing to do with my dad. But ultimately, yeah, a lot of thing to do with my dad. But ultimately, yeah. A lot of material. A lot of material. But did it help the relationship?

I think it has helped the relationship. Yeah, I think that it kind of made me more hopeful about the relationship. I think if you kind of are set and you're like, if you have like a parent where you're always nagging each other or a parent where it's kind of established that you're not super close you kind of believe that narrative and I think like going to therapy kind of having a third party or looking at your relationship in a different way it was like what if we uh what if we called each other what if we had a chat what if we did this and you kind of as an adult it's so hard to reinvent ways to be with your parents but you kind of have to really interesting particularly adult children I think with it with their parents. Fascinating.

Let's turn to a different type of daddy, a sugar daddy. You tried to have one, didn't really work out? Yes. The story of the sugar daddy in the show is incredibly humbling. A man messaged me on Instagram, the way all great stories start. And because I was feeling vulnerable, I replied. And he, you know, he promised me the world. He said he wanted to pay for whatever I needed. He just, you know, he kind of went in saying that he would help me get my nails done.

And I'm not actually, my nails are done at the moment, but I'm not that much of an aesthetic gal. But instead? Instead, he sent me five English pounds. You might get one nail done. Sophie Duker, I want to thank you for coming in. You might get one nail done. Sophie Duker, I want to thank you for coming in. You will be touring,

but Daddy, I love her. Nothing got to do with Taylor Swift. Across the UK, in Europe, in 2025. Let me see. We were talking about feedback. I had a difficult relationship

with my mother. She often gave me unsolicited negative feedback that I felt wasn't true. Talking to my therapist, I learned that was more about my mum than it was about me.

I will see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Sean Diddy Combs has occupied a top spot in the music industry for decades.

He earned his stripes during the golden age of hip-hop and he's been called rap royalty. Now Diddy's sat in jail awaiting trial. He denies all the allegations. I'm Anushka Matanda-Dowity and from BBC Sounds this is Diddy on Trial. Every week I'll be examining the latest allegations, interrogating the rumours and answering your questions. Listen on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.